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Friday, December 14, 2012

Members of the Local NRA Respond to Today's Elementary School Shooting

Posted by on Fri, Dec 14, 2012 at 1:26 PM

This morning, I called up members of the Washington State Rifle and Pistol Association—the official state affiliate of the National Rifle Association—to get their reactions to day's mass elementary-school shooting in Connecticut. I wanted to find out what NRA members proposed in order to keep our school children and malls and movie theaters and other public spaces safe. Here are their thoughts:

Legislative Chairman Joe Waldron, 66, Bellevue:

What are your thoughts on today's school shooting, which is just the last in a long line of public shootings?
It’s difficult to comment; We don’t know the details of what occurred yet. I have no doubt that we’re going to see 100 new laws proposed in Olympia, another 100 in DC. But the bottom line is, in almost every instance when a mass shooting like this occurs, it occurs in an area where guns are prohibited. This creates an environment where people can’t protect themselves. When you have a psychopath deciding that he wants to make some type of a statement, historically those are the places they choose—places where guns are prohibited. What’s also historically true, the police are never there in time to stop the individual. Even when they’re apprehended, it’s usually after the shooter has stopped shooting.

Are you suggesting that the school teachers should’ve been armed?
We’ll never know! Am I advocating arming all teachers? Not necessarily. But current state laws prohibit them from being armed and I’m questioning whether that’s the best policy. If guns were as evil as people claim they are, you’d hear about mass shootings at gun shows. Never happens. Police stations. Again, never happens. These things only happen when these nutcases are able to go someplace knowing that they’re perfectly safe to do what they want to do.

Alright then, how do we keep nutcases from getting guns?
Right after Virginia Tech, there was a push to put mental health records in gun background checks. We do not oppose that. It’s the mental health advocates that oppose it. Then again, a lot of these shooters have no prior history of mental health.

Do you think some guns are more dangerous than others?
No. Part of the problem is one of education. There’s an awful lot of misinformation out there. Every time something like this happens, we hear about "weapons of war." Reporters are assuming the guy used an AR-15. You might wonder, 'why do people have those rifles?' They’re the most popular, hottest selling long gun on the market today. Why? Because they have a broad variety of uses and are exceptionally accurate. It isn’t even remotely high powered but it is exceptionally accurate.

How do we prevent more mass shootings from taking place?
Part of the problem, I think, is that by the time a person reaches 18 in the US, he’s seen one million people killed, usually unlawfully, on TV and in movies. Depictions of violence are much gorier than they were in my day. Video games! The video game Doom! I think that, through the realism of today’s video games and movies, we’ve desensitized people into committing violence. I think we’re seeing the results of a failure to enact reasonable restrictions [on violent video games, movies] at age levels, at the very least.

So you're saying video games and movies are to blame for gun violence?
It’s not the availability of guns in this country. Guns were far more available to kids when I was growing up, and yet we didn’t shoot our classmates, we didn’t shoot our friends. What’s changed is violence in the media, violence in video games. There was no such thing at a mass shooting in schools in the 50s, 60s, and 70s. We’re desensitizing kids to violence. Even rape! It’s incomprehensible. I don’t understand why people are allowed to get away with [making these games/movies/etc]—except of course we have 1st Amendment rights so we can’t touch them.

Then what’s the solution?
I'll say this: Given the 250 million guns in circulation in the US, it’s amazing how infrequently this happens.

Vice President Duane Hatch, 58, Gig Harbor resident:

What's your reaction to today's school shooting?
I just heard about it. I can’t comment on today’s shooting.

What action, if any, do you think our legislators need to take to ensure public safety?
Our legislators need to fund police departments in order to enforce the existing laws. The one [shooting] in Portland, the gun was actually stolen. There are plenty of existing laws on the books to get guns away from criminals and people who shouldn’t have them.

Do you think Washington should close its gun show loophole?
There is no gun show loophole. There are no transactions that occur at gun shows that are illegal. The judges just need to back up law enforcement people.

How then do you propose we prevent people from walking into schools and shooting children?
You can answer that question as well as I can. If I can predict how to do that, I’d definitely tell my legislators. It is impossible. It is physically not possible.

So our laws are doing just fine at protecting people from gun violence?
I don’t think any additional laws are necessary.

Are some guns more dangerous than others?

How many guns do you personally own?
I'm not going to answer that question.

Do you have any concerns about people shooting other people in public?
I’m concerned that people don’t take a look at the big picture on the use of firearms, the ownership of firearms. It’s disconcerting that people think that legislators can suddenly pass laws and make this all go away.

Secretary Alan Carey, over 50, Seattle resident:

What are your thoughts on today's school shooting?
I would say that, I’m not familiar with the laws in Connecticut, but every one of these shootings needs to be evaluated on its own.

What action, if any, do you think our legislators need to take to ensure public safety?
I think the laws we have are strict. I would say that if that process of buying a gun is followed, it’s stringent. Whether it's followed… the issue may be more of whether it’s truthfully followed.

Then how do you propose we keep people from walking into schools and shooting children?
This is really a tragedy. I don’t know why he did what he did. I think people should be able to legally own firearms, that's what i think. I don’t know what led to this tragedy.

Are some guns more dangerous than others?
Not inherently, within the firearms that normal people can purchase.

How many guns do you own?
That’s my own private business. We’re organized for competitive target shooting—that’s what we do. We’re not… that’s our… when I shoot target rifles competitively, I shoot one at a time.


Comments (79) RSS

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xinyikangsports 79
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Posted by xinyikangsports on October 14, 2013 at 6:33 PM · Report this
Why don’t we put the blame where it really belongs, on big Pharma. The U.S. has become a manic depressive, ADHD, mental disorder of the month, pill popping nation. Damn, it is even fashionable to say one has at least one disorder, as if it’s a badge of honor. When will people take responsibility for their own actions? But, of course no one wants their soma taken away and government needs the public stupefied. Are you starting to get the big picture?
Posted by liberty4all on December 18, 2012 at 7:38 PM · Report this
Posted by Siddha on December 18, 2012 at 6:22 PM · Report this
#66 You on the other hand are a person if find I could respect. You seem a little that you might actually care. Guns do kill people because they have it out for humans I think. Next time I see a gun walk its way into my home and start talking smack its going down. Lol Cars and drunk drivers kill people too do we ban cars? No, its a useful tool. A gun is also a useful tool. Do we ban planes? No, its a useful tool and resource. If someone kicks you are you going to ban legs? Lol Guns have a purpose. They have been useful for centuries. This country is spoiled with so many resources we forget what its like to remain self sufficient and use TOOLS. Your freedom, your call. Just because your life doesn't require a gun doesn't mean you take it out of other peoples hands. I need to protect myself and my son and will always carry a gun rather than suffer as one if these parents did. I so wish I would have been in that school with a gun to save lives. I'm a girl too. If all you fat white guys can't handle a weapon then no wonder your kids are dying. Sorry, just pissed at the way our nation uses a bunch of avoidance to fix a problem. Get off your butts and protect yourself. Don't go crying to legislatures and Obama to fix it. Oh wait, you elected them so I guess you do have to go cry to them. Sorry any fatties I offended. I love you too!
Posted by jgrast on December 18, 2012 at 1:31 AM · Report this
I think he blamed video games because its a psychological motivator that causes actual changes to our brains and perception of humanity. Duh, lol. It can be a factor. Where as guns are just a tool. You don't blame a knife when someone gets stabbed lol People may just find it easy to blame guns for things like this. Its society and the way we communicate things to children. People dont deserve respect anyways they dont deserve it. Its not the guns. If i was going to kill someone Id do it with any means possible. If they had a gun I wouldnt succeed. If anything we need them more than ever. :)
Posted by jgrast on December 18, 2012 at 12:28 AM · Report this
It's called a "safe". If those who owned firearms used them, many shootings would simply not happen. It is the ulitmate responsibility of the gun owner to secure all weapons. Otherwise, you may not wake up one day as someone may have grabbed your gun and put a round through your face while sleeping.Those that do not secure their firearms should have them confiscated and they should pay a healthy fine, or if the use of one of their weapons is used in a felony crime, they should go to jail as well.
Posted by 10m&m on December 17, 2012 at 9:55 PM · Report this
Automatic weapons are illegal since passage of the National Firearms Act of 1934. Assault weapons that can be purchased are not automatic, they are semi-automatic, big difference. To obtain an automatic weapon, one must first acquire a "class C federal firearm license", which is extremely difficult to obtain and can take years to obtain, and not just anyone can acquire one, it is difficult without exception. To my knowledge, no automatic weapon has been used in any mass shooting in several decades... Just factual fyi - I am not reading any comments, so save your fingers...
Posted by scratchmaster joe on December 17, 2012 at 6:41 PM · Report this
#71: I'm also a former law enforcement officer, (WSP, now retired) but I totally disagree with you. Sensible gun control CAN work, but needs to be uniform and will take time. We need to get the assault weapons off the street, and should have substantially stronger ownership and registration laws.
Posted by aislander on December 17, 2012 at 5:35 PM · Report this
Its the violent culture that surrounds us, not the weapons which save many more lives than they take every day. I know everybody wants a turnkey solution, but its not possible. I am a former law enforcement officer, and trust me people have changed. Violence has become very normal in our society, and needs to change. Gun control just unarms the guys who may actually stop an incident like this. People need to take an interest in thier kids lives, and raise families to be productive, Thats the only real solution.
Posted by felixh515 on December 17, 2012 at 4:00 PM · Report this
@66 Thank you for broaching a serious and sensitive issue. Our society requires much more demonstrated skill to legally drive on a public road than to raise a child. Yet everybody goes nuts if you suggest enforcing minimum competency requirements on parents. We insist on skill-based licensing to drive a car, teach a class, or run a day-care, but we let any two fools make babies and raise them. Go figure.

@65 Thank you for injecting some rationality into what's mostly a mindless rant by the lunatic fringe. And thank you for recognizing the "halo effect", the collateral protection afforded those who do not own guns by those who do. One important benefit of concealed (vs. open) carry is that the bad guys can't know who is armed: it raises their risk of attacking anyone. And it enables defensive gun use by people who would never carry a gun. "Get back, I have a gun!" is surprisingly effective almost anywhere in America. Try this in London, or Tokyo, or Beijing - the criminals will laugh.

The halo effect is only one of many benefits of gun ownership. Gary Kleck's NDGU study indicates 400,000 people every year believe their use of a gun saved a life. Even if 90% of them are wrong, that still means 40,000 innocent lives are SAVED every year by ordinary civilians with guns. That's a lot: substantially more than the 31,000 killed every year. When you include the rapes that don't happen, the burglaries, robberies, and assaults that don't happen because good people had (or said they had) guns, the benefits of widespread personal gun ownership stack up very respectably against the costs.

And, the issues are complex. Any number of systemic poisons from pharmaceuticals, to lead in the gasoline, to plasticizers in the rayon, to hormones in the meat could easily be a major factor. (I forgot. They banned lead in gasoline because it WAS DAMAGING CHILDREN'S MENTAL DEVELOPMENT.)

And to those who think FPS video games are harmless: see Col. Dave Grossman's study of mass shooters. He found that ALL OF THEM (in recent years) spent hours every day - for years - immersed in these "games". Some kids even learned ALL their marksmanship by video simulation, having only handled a real gun once - for a few hours - before blowing away their classmates. These games are so effective at teaching people to kill that the US, Britain, Australia and Canada have for years used them for training their soldiers.
Posted by LMT_FormerNRA on December 17, 2012 at 2:07 PM · Report this
Guns don't kill people, people do. What a bunch of bullshit. People with guns kill people. If people don't have guns, it's a hell of a lot harder to kill people. To compound the problem, our media feeds these needy individuals with wall-to-wall 24-7 coverage of these events, which some of the perps obviously crave.

How about this as a first step? ALL firearms must be registered and titled like cars are. Any registered owner can be held (at least partially) responsible for crimes committed with that weapon? This would certainly close the gun show loophole and more.

And maybe second step: require massive liability insurance (like with cars) to cover any harm caused by the weapon. Seems to me to be a good place to start!
Posted by aislander on December 17, 2012 at 1:46 PM · Report this
@67 That seems far fetched. It's generally quite difficult to defeat hardened steel locks with soft lead bullets. If it's true, the officials are admitting the school was being "protected" from a man with a gun by a door breached in seconds by a man with a gun. What kind of security is that? And if it took him more than seconds to get in - why didn't someone notice the sound of continuous rifle fire at their front door? Happens all the time? He "shot up the door" quietly? The odds that this will be verified are near zero. The odds that it's anti-gun propaganda are quite high.
Posted by LMT_FormerNRA on December 17, 2012 at 12:20 PM · Report this
@62, officials now believe that the school was locked, as it generally was at 9:30, and the shooter defeated these security measures by shooting up the door.

Yeah, sure, no firearm is more or less dangerous than any other. A .22 pistol is exactly as lethal as a shotgun. Is this one of the new talking points of the NRA?
Posted by clashfan on December 17, 2012 at 10:59 AM · Report this
Guns are not the problem. They need to be guided by a person to do damage.

Neglectful parents who (to their benefit) didn't learn how to model constructive and pro-social behavior for their children are a dangerous, growing phenomenon in our society.

Who's regulating/monitoring parenting skills? Because we become parents doesn't give us a "free ticket" from having mental health and interpersonal communication issues which need attention.

Metaphoric to a person who seeks to acquire a gun - a parent who is not "qualified" (has no "background check" or monitoring done for parenting/communication skills) is potentially very dangerous. Further, parents "wrap their hands around" a child, guide/"aim" their direction, and, ultimately, pull the trigger.

What we really need to give our attention to is not the gun, but who's behind the trigger?
Posted by friendlyneighborhood on December 17, 2012 at 8:30 AM · Report this
This thread illustrates why I went from rabidly anti-gun under any circumstance (I am a peaceivist) to 'let's be sensible here'. Most of you sound as closed-minded and biased as the folks I occasionally peek in on forums over in Faux News Land and its ilk. First off, as much as you all take seriously your right to free speech as a foundation of being a citizen of this country, many likewise take seriously their Constitutionally-protected right to bear arms to defend themselves. Fact, and a matter of mutual respect. So stop trying to grab their guns like they think you want to do!

Which isn't to say there aren't more than a few nutcases hanging around the NRA. The rest are programmed with canned answers to the very questions asked of them here, and without ideas of their own about stopping mass murder. Mass murder isn't their thing, so they don't give it any more head space than say Lady Gaga's upcoming spectacle, obviously. Other than some damn wacky ideas, most of those guys are good guys, safe firearm owners, and not prone to busting out their inner mass shooters. Are guns to blame for mass killings? Where they're available, more often than not they are the weapon used. But where not available, the psychos use other means, such as the rash of mass murders of schoolchildren in China with knives and hammers. So guns or not, mass murders are happening, and often in clusters. What is a unifying pattern in many cases? LEGALLY PRESCRIBED PSYCHOTROPIC DRUGS for one. Death by gun doesn't even come close to the top of the list of total causes of death in America.

According to the Journal of the American Medical Association, pharmaceuticals kill more than 290 people per day. The psychotropic drugs themselves contain warnings that they may cause suicidal and homicidal behavior. So why the hell is everyone talking about taking anyone's guns away? The vast majority of gun owners are sane and lawful. The 31,000 people killed by guns annually in America is tragic, but pales in comparison to the 106,000 deaths by legal prescription drugs each year. Why does this get glossed over each time we find out these kids are are on Prozac or Paxil or any other FDA approved psychotropic drug?

And for you who think you or anyone's brain is immune to exposure to constant violence whether first hand, shooter games or graphically violent movies, you can't then be aware of ongoing brain science studies which are verifying that these inputs do in fact measurably affect aggressive behavior, especially in young men. If we refuse to take a hard look at how evolving cultural norms are affecting our society, we have our heads in the sand. Multiple factors, including massively available sophisticated weaponry have changed the game. But if we limit ourselves to black and white thinking and believe that mass murder can be legislated away by restricting access to sane, lawful people, we're delusional.

At the same moment our president wipes invisible tears to mourn these tragic deaths, he oversees a massive killing operation that daily kills innocent civilian men, women and children through his drone program, which earns the USA a reputation as planetary bully in many places. Yet we're shocked -SHOCKED-when our kids--or THEIR kids-- use the same sort of violence to vent their rage at the schizoid nature of our society, which touts freedom and democracy on one hand, and delivers endless war and deep class schism on the other.

Ever since humans have had weapons, there has been tragic death and sometimes mass murder. Thanks to instant media and a larger than ever population scale, this fact is constantly in our face as if it's a brand new reality. Of course we desire to prevent what we possibly can. But we must stop blaming the weapons themselves. Let's instead question why these previously mostly mild mannered sane individuals snapped and went mad for blood. Accessibility to a gun does not make one snap and go homicidal.

Beyond all of this, I want to know how this kid got past the school's new security system with the arsenal of weapons reportedly found at the scene. And why initial reports--as with the Aurora shooting--said there were two shooters.

We need to dig deeper folks and stop the knee jerk fear reactions that make us want to suddenly gut a basic tenet of freedom in America. Study history and the inevitable outcome of powerful central governments disarming their citizenry, and don't be naive as to think it couldn't happen here, as more and more of our personal and civil rights are being gutted in the name of 'security'.

Personally, I am a small woman living alone in a rural neighborhood. I still don't like guns one bit and am not armed. Just not my thing. Being physically accosted is a bigger concern to me than getting shot, so I've learned how to deflect and protect myself. But I do appreciate my well-trained and ethical friends who choose to arm themselves and frankly am glad they're around because if there were a nutty situation out in these here parts, the cops wouldn't have enough time to respond.

The questions are complex, and so are the answers. Prohibition is not the answer, you lucky dogs who now get to light up without fear of being caged.
Posted by Punawahine on December 17, 2012 at 2:37 AM · Report this
How many more people must die before we as a nation defeat the NRA? How much longer will we remain hostage to these yahoos who need guns to compensate for deep-seated doubts about their masculinity?
Posted by Rocket Scientist on December 16, 2012 at 7:58 PM · Report this
The first question asked of these people requires a human response, but they all make a political response. What are your thoughts on the shooting of Children? should be answered with "I'm horrified and sad", not "hey, no need for law change here".
Posted by Jordan Maroubra on December 16, 2012 at 3:02 PM · Report this
This diatribe by all of you is in one way amusing and in many ways annoying--its what the mass media attention drivers want--you fell into it hook line and sinker.

The sad part is-where was the school security? Seriously--how did this guy get in? Dont say you have a secure school and then fall back on a false sense of security.--Legislatures need to put the money for safety measures truly into the hands of public places like schools.

Go ahead and take away all legally owned guns--cause thats the only ones youll get--its the illegally used guns that cause things like this
Posted by seneca on December 16, 2012 at 12:19 PM · Report this
NRA members = proof that people are too dumb to own guns.
Posted by S T on December 16, 2012 at 10:43 AM · Report this
So how many people are killed each year from alcohol related deaths, yet we don't hear any outcry for alcohol to be made illegal. How about deaths from careless automobile drivers...not outcry to make cars illegal. The exact opposite needs to be done from what society is calling for. If everyone is required to carry a weapon, then no one will be stupid enough to try pulling a gun if they know there will be XX number pointing right back at them. Its called mutually assured worked in the cold war and it will work with guns.
Posted by on December 16, 2012 at 12:47 AM · Report this
So how many people are killed each year from alcohol related deaths, yet we don't hear any outcry for alcohol to be made illegal. How about deaths from careless automobile drivers...not outcry to make cars illegal. The exact opposite needs to be done from what society is calling for. If everyone is required to carry a weapon, then no one will be stupid enough to try pulling a gun if they know there will be XX number pointing right back at them. Its called mutually assured worked in the cold war and it will work with guns.
Posted by on December 16, 2012 at 12:43 AM · Report this
Boy, it's a good thing you're ready for Doomsday. I too feel the need to arm myself so that when mass riots arrive on my doorstep and want my TV and the gold bricks under my bed that I can make a last stand, slaying hundreds as they swarm over one another at my doors and windows. Preferably automatic weapons...that way I can take down many more of them before, in their mindless frenzy, they swarm into my house and tear me limb from limb.

Wait...maybe I'm thinking of an episode of The Walking Dead.
Posted by tempo36 on December 15, 2012 at 6:19 PM · Report this
Your Constitution's 2nd Amendment states "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." Everyone focuses on the second clause in that sentence: what about the first part? You have a well regulated militia, in fact, you have several dozen of them federally and at the state and local levels: FBI, the US Army, National Guard, Coast Guard, the Reserves, state police, local many "well regulated militias" do you require to feel "safe" and "secure"? No, the problem is from way way back everyone has assumed that this sentence meant "everyone arm themselves" and perhaps prior to their being a "well regulated militia" this was important. Now, of course, the horses have left the barn, there's no going back, rewriting it won't help, you are awash in weaponry. A friend suggested a boycott of stores that sell guns. But it goes beyond stores that sell guns and ammunition. So, boycott any business whose business is violence? Hollywood, the TV networks and cable stations and local news stations who feature car chases and other "breaking news" as if it were important to our lives; video game designers and the builders and distributors of game consoles, toy manufacturers, toy stores, little boys who carry toy guns, sporting goods shops, car manufacturers and dealers,...
Posted by F. McGinty on December 15, 2012 at 2:32 PM · Report this
Frank Blethen's vodka distiller 56
52 & 53

So sorry about your small penis.
Posted by Frank Blethen's vodka distiller on December 15, 2012 at 2:08 PM · Report this
Getting rid of guns won't work i mean look at all the drug users they still get it psychopaths will too all getting rid of guns will do is make people not able to defend themselves against these people
Posted by Thomas Garber on December 15, 2012 at 8:28 AM · Report this
You can't simply ban guns. If you call on everyone to hand them over it's not like criminals will comply. What you can do is offer more education and emphasis on safe storage and perhaps increased incentives towards purchasing gun safes. On the extreme end maybe they should propose that having a safe be a requirement for firearm ownership. What a tragedy; my condolences go out to the families and friends of everyone we lost.
Posted by Backpackjunkies on December 15, 2012 at 3:06 AM · Report this
Oh wait....I got that wrong...The Brady CAMPAIGN... because I'm SURE some moron with nothing actually valid to say in response is going to correct me on that one. It's always a soapbox for gun grabbers until it happens to them.....then OH what you wouldn't have given for a gun at that moment....You know, that moment when you are completely helpless to do a damned thing..?
Posted by here we go again... on December 15, 2012 at 1:13 AM · Report this
Christ. I'll tell you what, all you gun grab supporters....Tell me this...when the deadbeats come and break down your door because they're not satisfied with their government handouts anymore and want what YOU have....including your wife and /or daughter....what the hell are you going to do then? Because they WILL be armed....and you WON'T. Of course, you are perfectly within your right to slobber and blubber for mercy as they shoot you dead....but I prefer to LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD. Maybe the Brady Foundation will provide your family with free counseling after they bury your stupid ass. Or perhaps when the government REALLY steps over the line (lmfao) and god forbid tramples SOME RIGHTS THAT YOU ACTUALLY THINK ARE IMPORTANT TO YOUR FREEDOM (duh......) will you simply bow to the new ussA or will you fight....Oh wait, that's right...You can't...BECAUSE THEY ARE ARMED AND YOU ARE HOLDING A FRICKEN RAKE.
Posted by here we go again... on December 15, 2012 at 1:02 AM · Report this
How about this, yes there are too many hubs in circulation, restricting sales and ownership is problematic - it's hard to put a genie back in the bottle - but ammunition has a much more limited half-life, regulate the hell out of ammunition sales and manufacture, then just wait...
Posted by pacaro on December 14, 2012 at 10:35 PM · Report this
watchout5 50
Are some guns more dangerous than others?
Not inherently, within the firearms that normal people can purchase.

This is why I will never be a republican or a libertarian or a conservative on this issue of guns. If you don't think guns can be more dangerous I got 99 guns and they're all more powerful than the last. The kind of bubble these people live in is uncanny.
Posted by watchout5 on December 14, 2012 at 10:33 PM · Report this
Duine Hatch is completely wrong... Gun Shows will sell guns without ID's, proof of residency ..
Mr. Hatch go to youtube and watch a video made by the Brady Campaign.. Made by Colin Goddard a Virginia Tech survivor. Where he goes to several gun shows with a hidden camera.
"Guns for Cash! No Background checks, No ID, and it's legal" is the title.
Posted by Julieart on December 14, 2012 at 9:11 PM · Report this
I don't believe that having age appropriate restrictions on violence is necessarily the rantings of a 'prong.' I do believe that the level of violence that is represented in video games, movies and mass entertainment can have a desensitizing effect on a disturbed mind. But I do believe that anyone who looks at our murder rate, compared with the rest of the 'civilized' world and says that guns don't kill people is a 'tool.'
Posted by Saddened again on December 14, 2012 at 9:10 PM · Report this
Ask Daune Hatch to watch a youtube video from the Brady Campaign that has Colin Goddard made... where he bought guns at Gun Shows with ID, proof of age, address.. paid cash and out the door... YES there are transactions at Gun Shows completely illegal.
Colin was a Virginia Tech Shooting survivor.
Posted by Julieart on December 14, 2012 at 8:16 PM · Report this
freesandbags 46
Remember it's the Muslims we are supposed afraid of.
Posted by freesandbags on December 14, 2012 at 8:14 PM · Report this
Stay away from schools with your gun, Cienna.
Posted by schools are not gummint tyranny on December 14, 2012 at 8:10 PM · Report this
Knat 44
@25: I personally blame Elvis Presley and those provocative hip gyrations of his. Or dancing in general. I think either is just as likely as your chosen lazy scapegoat.
Posted by Knat on December 14, 2012 at 5:27 PM · Report this
While I agree that the level of glorified violence in media cannot be helpful to the collective mental health, Mr Waldron apparently needs a history lesson when he says this kind of thing didn't used to happen.…
Posted by Sorin on December 14, 2012 at 5:25 PM · Report this
I just gave $150 to the Brady Campaign - and I feel great!

Posted by MacGruber on December 14, 2012 at 5:11 PM · Report this
Michael of the Green 41
Is this rhetorical technique of the "reduction to the absurd" a new pet favorite of the Right? I'm seeing it more and more often.
Posted by Michael of the Green on December 14, 2012 at 4:55 PM · Report this
#38, have you ever asked him why he doesn't carry a Taser instead? You might try to persuade him that it would be just as effective in an emergency but a lot less risky to himself and others.
Posted by Mister G on December 14, 2012 at 4:37 PM · Report this
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn 39
No gun is more dangerous than any other. Again and again they say this. And again, if they really believed it they wouldn't care if you banned some guns, because they'd be just the same with any other gun.
Posted by Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn on December 14, 2012 at 4:31 PM · Report this
I have one friend who carries his pistol under his jacket, and I never quite feel comfortable around him. I don't necessarily think he's going to go postal, but some part of my mind is constantly aware he has a deadly weapon beneath his coat. Once, he was getting up from his chair at a cafe and it flashed a little a his shirt rode up. I felt ashamed to be associating with someone so paranoid he feels he needs to 'pack heat'. It was really weird and uncomfortable. I'm almost positive the people behind us saw it. What must have gone through their mind, especially considering this was after the Cafe Racer shooting? People are welcome to argue the plus or minuses of gun control, but I'll never feel comfortable around someone carrying a gun. I realize this may not of a whole lot of relevance, but I felt like sharing at this moment.
Posted by uncomfortable friend on December 14, 2012 at 4:19 PM · Report this
So let me get this straight: We need metal detectors in schools to prevent another Columbine. But we need everybody in the school to be armed at all times to prevent another Newtown.
Posted by Proteus on December 14, 2012 at 4:10 PM · Report this
this pretty much says everything you need to know about gun control:…
Posted by mother_night on December 14, 2012 at 3:07 PM · Report this
Weed use to be illegal but somehow people were still able to get it.
Posted by Dan 420 on December 14, 2012 at 3:06 PM · Report this
#24, automatic weapons are irrelevant. They've never been used in one of these things. "Assault" weapons are barely relevant. They're rarely used in these things, and are just a style, nothing more.
Posted by Mister G on December 14, 2012 at 3:00 PM · Report this
Doctor Memory 33
"Am I advocating arming all teachers? Not necessarily.

Wait wait wait. Wait a goddamn minute.

For the last 20 years at least, every single one of my pro-RKBA friends has been telling me at every goddamn opportunity that Responsible Gun Owners™ (who, they assure me, are the vast majority of gun owners) can be relied upon to do one thing above all else: keep their guns in a locked safe when there are children around.

So now, I take it, that story is no longer operational, and the party line is that maybe just maybe kindergarten teachers should concealed-carry or open-carry?

Yeah, I'm sure there are no possible downsides to that plan. But all the chutzpah points in the goddamn world for awesome goalpost-moving there.
Posted by Doctor Memory on December 14, 2012 at 2:58 PM · Report this
Sargon Bighorn 32
Ms Madrid, the killer was 20 Years old. Why did you give the ages of the NRA folks? They have a pro-gun attitude, but the killer was a young man, hipster 20 year old, the prime demographic. What age is worse? A 20 year old that kills children or a 60 year old that has opinions you might disagree with? I know, you're just stating the facts. 20 year old males are nuts just like 60 year old males.
Posted by Sargon Bighorn on December 14, 2012 at 2:56 PM · Report this
@25: Maybe population density? I mean, we've gone from 76 million people in 1900 to 330 million people today, yet the land mass has not grown.

Or maybe it's the affordability of guns? Thanks to reduced production costs, economies of scale, and a general improvement in standard of living, more people can afford guns.

Of course stuff has changed in our culture. Duh. Maybe our policies should change to reflect that reality? Or do you propose changing the culture back to an agrarian economy with 80% fewer people?
Posted by also on December 14, 2012 at 2:44 PM · Report this
#11, BINGO
Posted by Mister G on December 14, 2012 at 2:42 PM · Report this
Just a great, great post, Cienna.
Posted by gloomy gus on December 14, 2012 at 2:36 PM · Report this
Don't take away mah guns, seize the video games! Arm the teechers!! Jesus what a bunch of fuckwads.
Posted by Vadt on December 14, 2012 at 2:33 PM · Report this
Max Solomon 27
NRA sophistry.

i'd prefer that gun shows were targeted over elementary schools.

@25: taxi driver is 35 years old. it is about an angry alienated male. nothing's changed.
Posted by Max Solomon on December 14, 2012 at 2:31 PM · Report this
@15 I agree. There has to be a way to place unremovable IR chips in guns at the manufacturer level. Certainly all the EU gun manufactures could be made to do it. Anybody get's caught in possession or selling a new gun with out an IR chip get's immediate jail time.
Posted by tkc on December 14, 2012 at 2:29 PM · Report this
chinaski 25
@20 whats not to understand? The guns have always been there. Something else has changed in our culture.
Posted by chinaski on December 14, 2012 at 2:17 PM · Report this
Will in Seattle 24
I grew up hunting quail and various other birds as a kid (7-10) in a place where most people were hunters.

Anyone who "needs" automatic weapons or assault weapons to hunt is:

a. lying

b. a really really piss poor shot

c. a jerk.
Posted by Will in Seattle on December 14, 2012 at 2:14 PM · Report this
Still like Chris Rock's idea of making bullets cost $1000's each. Maybe throw the money from the drug war into control of weapons?

Also, some guy on NPR said we haven't had an increase in the number of mass shootings in decades. It's just the body count, because the guns have gotten "better".
Posted by gnot on December 14, 2012 at 2:13 PM · Report this
No automatic weapons allowed anywhere in the US. No body armor to civilians. Licensing required for firearms ownership including classes and tests to pass, also mental health eval if indicated.
I like the idea of gun owners being able to refuse to sell guns to sketchy people. But they already can, because they have the right to refuse to sell to anyone for any reason. Also, I'd really hate to think the burden of a fine if you sell to a killer is any more of a preventative than, I dunno, having the blood of innocent children on your soul.
Posted by gnot on December 14, 2012 at 2:10 PM · Report this
PIG! PIG!!!!
Posted by Adrian Ryan on December 14, 2012 at 2:03 PM · Report this
venomlash 20
"by the time a person reaches 18 in the US, he’s seen one million people killed, usually unlawfully, on TV and in movies."
That works out to 152 every day. Really?

I really like how he thinks that violent vidyagames contribute to gun crime more than, say, GUNS.
Posted by venomlash on December 14, 2012 at 2:00 PM · Report this
emor 19

I have similar thoughts when I see children's shows or movies using violence as humor. What the fuck? Punching people shouldn't be played for laughs. Most recent example is the trailer for that horrible looking Christmas cartoon coming soon. The little elves punch each other and stuff. But then, this sort of cartoon violence has been employed for most of the 20th century -- a century not known for its lack of violence.
Posted by emor on December 14, 2012 at 2:00 PM · Report this
Pope Peabrain 18
They always talk in circles and we always fall silent. This is more right wing insanity. We've let them flood our streets with weapons to make themselves rich. And then they call themselves "pro-life".
Posted by Pope Peabrain on December 14, 2012 at 1:58 PM · Report this
Note to Santa: Xbox no; AK47 yes.

And of course they won't shoot their eye out. Only in the movies does that kind of thing ever happen. Which reminds me...videos no.
Posted by stating the obvious on December 14, 2012 at 1:57 PM · Report this
Write your representatives!

My letter template:

When is the right time Congressman? How many more shootings before someone is willing to take a stand against the NRA? How many more dead children before we talk about trigger locks, strict liability, strict licensing, not to mention making sure mental health care is properly funded?

100 dead children?

200 dead children?

What is the number that gets us to that conversation Congressman? Because I know one thing for sure: it's at least 20.

December 14, 2012: At least 27 dead, approximately 18 of whom were children in a Connecticut elementary school.

December 11, 2012: One injured, two killed at a mall by gunman in Clackamas, OR.

December 8, 2012: Four killed and two injured on the Tule Indian Reservation including the shooter's three children, only one of whom survived the initial attack.

September 28, 2012: Five killed by a recently fired employee in Minneapolis, MN.

August 24, 2012: Two killed, 9 wounded in 'Empire State Building' shooting.

August 5, 2012: Seven killed in Sikh temple shooting in Oak Creek, WI.

July 20, 2012: Twenty killed and 58 wounded in Aurora, CO.

May 30, 2012: Five killed, one wounded in mass shooting at Cafe Racer.

April 3, 2012: Ten shot, seven killed in Oakland's Oikos University.

March 31, 2012: Two killed and 12 injured in a shooting outside Miami funeral home.

March 2, 2012: Fourteen injured in a mass shooting at concert in Tempe, AZ.

February 27, 2012: Five shot, three dead in a Chardon, OH school.

February 21, 2012: Four killed in a Korean Spa shooting in Atlanta, GA.

December 25, 2011: Seven killed in Grapevine, TX on Christmas Day.

December 1, 2011: Four killed in Bay City, TX mass shooting.
Posted by Write your reps on December 14, 2012 at 1:56 PM · Report this
Here is a suggestion: Eliminate private firearm transfer; require all transfers to go via FFLs. At the same time, require all handguns and rifles to have RFID chips fitted/embedded in/on them.

I don't care how many guns you own. I just want a chance to ID that you have one one you - whether you walk into a school or go into a theater/mall that forbids weapons. Give us a chance to get away from you or take action.

The tech exists to make this effective in the foreseeable future.
Posted by Action Slacks on December 14, 2012 at 1:54 PM · Report this
I'm really torn on the question of gun control. God only knows I would hope to never see another tragedy such as today's. 20 dead little kids for crissake. Yet at the same time I will never forget that day decades ago when I was able to reach for my shotgun, which was stashed behind the front door, and chase away the bat wielding punks who showed up in my yard, in the University Village neighborhood who came to show me "What we do to fags around here".

What Mr. Wadron said on behalf of his organization is certainly self serving, but also does contain some elements that should be examined. I have found myself wondering at times what it would be like if there were not so much violence on TV and in the movies. We know that folks seem to learn to accept us LGBT people by seeing us on TV shows such as Ellen, Glee etc. What do you think we all learn by seeing so many shoot-em-up shows?

I too remember a time when there were probably as many guns around proportionately as now, but gun violence was nowhere near today's level. We would do ourselves a favor by examining just what has changed over the years.

In the meantime I still have a shotgun, and it is still close at hand in case it is needed again. I don't foresee myself giving it up anytime soon in hopes that the bad guys will follow my example.
Posted by PaulBarwick on December 14, 2012 at 1:53 PM · Report this
@6 - well, you have their answer. And yes, every last one of them is disingenuous and stupid. And avaricious. Let's not forget, every last one of these motherfuckers is a tool of the NRA and gun lobby.

30,000 dead from guns every year. Just so these motherfuckers can make a little money. I can't fucking stand it.
Posted by johnjjeeves on December 14, 2012 at 1:52 PM · Report this
chinaski 12
@2 so you don't think 1st person shooter games and our culture where an entire theater erupts in laughter at violence, our culture where everyone has seen the same youtube video compilations of hilarious violence, none of this has contributed to this crazy shit? If so you are deluded.
I am also suprised this doesn't happen more often. But I can goddamn gaurentee you it will, my friend. Unfortunately.
I have no guns, btw
Posted by chinaski on December 14, 2012 at 1:51 PM · Report this
meanie 11
Does the average slogger enjoy the emotional spitting, crying and name calling in the face of events like this? While your all busy patting yourself on the back with how much you think people are evil for thinking a certain way or obeying existing laws, do you think any of the vitriol and emotional nonsense of these posts will sway even a single person in such a polarized issue?

Screaming at anyone who disagrees with you and making them try to justify what a clearly deranged individual did, is beyond irrational, and only a selfish scared act.

enjoy your shouting into the void and group think, because no one other than trolls and those sparring for a fight will engage you.

Posted by meanie on December 14, 2012 at 1:49 PM · Report this
emor 10
"Now, I have no idea what happened, but it wouldn't have happened if there were more guns."

What a tool.
Posted by emor on December 14, 2012 at 1:49 PM · Report this
Original Andrew 9
Army bases? Never happens.

Posted by Original Andrew on December 14, 2012 at 1:48 PM · Report this
Supreme Ruler Of The Universe 8

Go to YouTube and look up "woman|girl defends self from rapist|home invader|burglers with gun". Many times the assailants have no guns and if the females didn't they would have been battered and raped.
Posted by Supreme Ruler Of The Universe on December 14, 2012 at 1:47 PM · Report this
I may be wrong but the shorthand for the NRA people's message seems to be "shit happens."
Posted by howie in seattle on December 14, 2012 at 1:47 PM · Report this
Westlake, son! 6
> Are some guns more dangerous than others?

If they said "no" to this question, they are either liars or disingenuous or stupid.
Posted by Westlake, son! on December 14, 2012 at 1:46 PM · Report this
"Police stations. Again, never happens."

How about coffee shops with 4 armed police officers? No one got killed there, right? Oh wait...
Posted by beaugirl on December 14, 2012 at 1:45 PM · Report this
Original Andrew 4
Part of the problem is one of education.

Is our childrens learning before they get a bullet through the head?
Posted by Original Andrew on December 14, 2012 at 1:44 PM · Report this
Okay, how about this? If you sell someone a gun that is used in a crime, you're held criminally liable, to some degree. Probably no jail time, but a massive fine. This puts the impetus on retailers to make sure that guns only get into the hands of those responsible enough to use them.

We all know that threatening a psychopath with jail time isn't going to work if he plans on shooting himself in the head. He isn't making rational decisions; the law doesn't matter to him. However, retailers are financially motivated, and WILL make rational decisions. Give them the ability to deny someone a gun because they're not responsible enough to use it, and THE FREE MARKET will solve the murderspree issue on it's own.
Posted by Ruke on December 14, 2012 at 1:42 PM · Report this
Fnarf 2
Joe Waldron, you are a colossal piece of shit.

"Given the 250 million guns in circulation in the US, it’s amazing how infrequently this happens." What a fucking prong.

Video games. For chrissakes.
Posted by Fnarf on December 14, 2012 at 1:36 PM · Report this
Wait. So if guns don't kill people (because people kill people) then how can he blame video games? Video games don't kill people either. If video games are a contributing factor in these sorts of tragedies, in that they make people more likely to commit mass murder, then guns are fair game too.
Posted by JenV on December 14, 2012 at 1:35 PM · Report this

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