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News & ArtsMonday, December 10, 2012
Politics / Religion The Outsiders
Posted by Goldy on Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 8:52 AM
I could've fisked the whole article, but this particularly quote really jumped out at me:
"I feel like I'm living in pagan Rome," said Dan Kennedy, CEO of Human Life of Washington, who has worked on conservative issues here since 2000. ... "It's not fun always feeling like an outsider..."
An outsider? Oh. You mean like how an LGBT person might feel in an America that legally discriminates against them? Or like a Jew must feel during the Christmas season, or like any non-Christian feels when people like Kennedy insist that the US was founded as a Christian nation? (Which, of course, it most clearly was not.)
Is that the kind of "outsider" conservative Christians feel like when the majority doesn't actually legally discriminate against them, but merely prevents them from legally discriminating against others? Poor babies.
1
Actually, America was founded as a Protestant nation.
And adhering to that ethic made it great.
Today's Humanists are Trust Fund babies, living off the social and economic wealth and stability earned by past generations; frittering it away, a trillion dollars here, a trillion there, marriage by the wayside......
And adhering to that ethic made it great.
Today's Humanists are Trust Fund babies, living off the social and economic wealth and stability earned by past generations; frittering it away, a trillion dollars here, a trillion there, marriage by the wayside......
2
Troll at 1
No... The colonies (some) were founded by protestants. America found founded as a secular nation several decades later. Their called textbooks, check um out sometime.
No... The colonies (some) were founded by protestants. America found founded as a secular nation several decades later. Their called textbooks, check um out sometime.
3
And 1528 comments for that story! I've never seen such a comment cout on a Times story (or Stranger/Slog for that matter).
I actually think Kirby Wilbur gives some decent explanations. About Washington being "a socially liberal and economically conservative state" and, more to the point: "I think there's a strong libertarian streak out there."
This is a state where an anti-tax Eyman initiative can win easily. That means there is a cross-section of voters who are anti-tax and who also believe that prohibiting marriage and marijuana are none of the government's business. I don't agree with the first half of that worldview, but there's nothing inherently intellectually inconsistent about it.
I actually think Kirby Wilbur gives some decent explanations. About Washington being "a socially liberal and economically conservative state" and, more to the point: "I think there's a strong libertarian streak out there."
This is a state where an anti-tax Eyman initiative can win easily. That means there is a cross-section of voters who are anti-tax and who also believe that prohibiting marriage and marijuana are none of the government's business. I don't agree with the first half of that worldview, but there's nothing inherently intellectually inconsistent about it.
5
@2 - Maybe you'll have to check my math, but by my count, the troll just needs to say it a dozen more times or so before it becomes true.
6
The best part of the article was the freak who wanted to carry a sign around saying "Unclean Unclean"
It's time the christo-freaks realize we have an airport that will take them anyplace else they want to live..like Mississippi.
It's time the christo-freaks realize we have an airport that will take them anyplace else they want to live..like Mississippi.
8
To David DeWolf, who teaches law at Gonzaga University, a Catholic institution in Spokane, the votes reflect individuals disconnecting from the rest of society, "elevating the desires of the individual over the needs of the community."What?! If anything, voting to RESTRICT gay marriage reflects elevating the desires of the individual over the needs of the community. They're saying, "I personally don't like gays, so I don't want them to marry." Besides, as Dan frequently comments, gay marriage owes a lot from support from hetero voters. Sounds to me like a lot of straight voters decided that the needs of the gay community were more important than their individual feelings.
Also,
He, too, thinks about ancient Rome. "The introduction of Christianity was the introduction of a way of understanding ourselves that says we're made for better things, we're capable of real charity and concern for one another and living a life of virtue."He should review the history of the decline of Rome. The introduction of christianity was hardly beneficial and the fall of Rome didn't take long after christianity was imposed. Besides, I wonder how the muslims felt about christian "charity and concern for one another" during the crusades?
9
The opening scene of Spartacus plays out that same tired lie as well, that Christians saved humanity from the evils of pagan Rome somehow. Nevermind all the horrible in the name of Jesus soon after Rome's collapse and the contempt towards humanity churches continue to show.
10
Can I call bullshit on the validity of "socially liberal, fiscally conservative"? Being socially liberal is far more than just getting laid and smoking weed. It means being willing, as a society, to take care of those who are unable to take care of themselves. Socially liberal isn't being supportive of a couple of token liberal causes, like gay marriage or weed legalization, and then become right-wing assholes on people paying for the basics of a stable and just society.
Socially liberal means providing for a strong and deep social safety net and social programs that support the public good and that isn't done through any "fiscal conservatism".
Socially liberal means providing for a strong and deep social safety net and social programs that support the public good and that isn't done through any "fiscal conservatism".
11
If you don't act like you're constantly under attack, how do you expect to keep your otherwise fractious flock under control?
Works for all religions.
Works for all religions.
12
As someone gay, I grew up feeling like an outsider all the time, and, no, it wasn't fun. Particularly in my Catholic high school, where most of the students and some of the faculty felt as though they had free reign to pick on the gay kids.
And, as @2 pointed out, only some of the original colonies were founded on religious principles (in contrast, Georgia was basically a prison colony). Probably the most famous colony founded on and dedicated to explicitly Christian principles was Massachusetts. I'm always awed by how those witch trials in Salem embodied everything that makes our Christian nation great today!
And, as @2 pointed out, only some of the original colonies were founded on religious principles (in contrast, Georgia was basically a prison colony). Probably the most famous colony founded on and dedicated to explicitly Christian principles was Massachusetts. I'm always awed by how those witch trials in Salem embodied everything that makes our Christian nation great today!
13
The Constitution was inveighed-against by many clergymen for being literally (textually) 'God'-less, and major pushes for amendments to add God in failed a few times.
I have to have sympathy with these people as human beings, as 1.) I have experienced what it's like to believe in things in which no-one around me believes and most find unacceptable, 2.) I believe that sympathy is not only the correct but the smart response, smart because you must understand your opponent as well as possible, and 3.) I believe that suffering itself were bad---it's bad for the health, and worse for the mind.
I wish they weren't suffering, and I don't think their suffering will lead them to what I consider to be decent opinions...any change will come after they get used enough to things that they have a chance to think, the lizard-brain no longer supervening.
> Despite seeing the recent votes as moral deterioration,
> "I don't necessarily buy that it's irreversible," Beren
> says. "If you go back into history, you'll see they were
> burning people at the stake and sacrificing children."
'[...] and God willing, I'll get to do that...soon.'
I have to have sympathy with these people as human beings, as 1.) I have experienced what it's like to believe in things in which no-one around me believes and most find unacceptable, 2.) I believe that sympathy is not only the correct but the smart response, smart because you must understand your opponent as well as possible, and 3.) I believe that suffering itself were bad---it's bad for the health, and worse for the mind.
I wish they weren't suffering, and I don't think their suffering will lead them to what I consider to be decent opinions...any change will come after they get used enough to things that they have a chance to think, the lizard-brain no longer supervening.
> Despite seeing the recent votes as moral deterioration,
> "I don't necessarily buy that it's irreversible," Beren
> says. "If you go back into history, you'll see they were
> burning people at the stake and sacrificing children."
'[...] and God willing, I'll get to do that...soon.'
15
Ugh. I'm so fed up with listening to Christian bullshit. They believe a lot of nonsense and insist we all must believe it, too. They'd drag us all back to the dark ages if we let them.
17
@10 - I think that's essentially fair. My two thoughts are that a) maybe we need to find a heading for getting laid and smoking weed other than "social," since most people use that word to describe issues of personal liberty and moral self-determination, and b) for those of us who are more or less still socially liberal even by your definition, we may describe ourselves as fiscally conservative simply because, while we DO support a strong social safety net and social programs that promote the public good, we may be amenable to more . . . well, "conservative" approaches to bringing that about.
How do you propose this position be described? Or is the need to label every nuance of position part of the problem?
How do you propose this position be described? Or is the need to label every nuance of position part of the problem?
18
If you feel oppressed by gays and libruls and such, hop on I-90 and head east. The world is pretty much your fucking oyster from Snoqualmie Pass to the Chicago city limits.
19
@17:
Part of the problem is that there is a significant group of people who feel the proper adjective to label your position would be 'socialist', the exact same word they'd use for Stalin, Mao, Mussolini,...anyone with positions at all at variance with their own in the direction of more State activity (and anyone wanting less were 'anarchist').
Part of the problem is that there is a significant group of people who feel the proper adjective to label your position would be 'socialist', the exact same word they'd use for Stalin, Mao, Mussolini,...anyone with positions at all at variance with their own in the direction of more State activity (and anyone wanting less were 'anarchist').
20
@ 10, I think the old adage "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" would be a socially liberal and fiscally conservative approach. -- (it's obvious most 'conservatives' in office are NOT fiscally conservative, they're cronies).
23
you girls' rabid hatred of religion blinds you to historical reality.
The values that animated those who founded this nation were Protestant.
And the values that the nation strove to live up to during its heydays were Protestant.
In fact, the establishment of this nation could be seen as a step in the Reformation, the establishment of a nation where people were free to study and choose their religious values without coersion from the state.
That principle has always had enemies; the Catholic Church, the various hues of totalitarianism (fascist, communist, etc), and currently Humanism.
As Danny often brays, the Humanists are winning, using the power of government to impose their belief system on the entire population.
The decline of American society tracks the rise of Humanism.
Sorry if The Truth is awkward for you girls.
Inconvenient Truths, the man called them.......
The values that animated those who founded this nation were Protestant.
And the values that the nation strove to live up to during its heydays were Protestant.
In fact, the establishment of this nation could be seen as a step in the Reformation, the establishment of a nation where people were free to study and choose their religious values without coersion from the state.
That principle has always had enemies; the Catholic Church, the various hues of totalitarianism (fascist, communist, etc), and currently Humanism.
As Danny often brays, the Humanists are winning, using the power of government to impose their belief system on the entire population.
The decline of American society tracks the rise of Humanism.
Sorry if The Truth is awkward for you girls.
Inconvenient Truths, the man called them.......
24
@ 10, what if the fiscal conservative portion of the claim meant believing in balanced budgets (with the realistic notion that sometimes you have to engage in deficit spending)? There are lots of programs that can be cut, and they have nothing to do with the social safety net.
25
@18 True enough.
http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/ass…
I think those flat blue spots are all Indian country. Outside of that, it's all Christian Right if you stay north of Denver.
http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/ass…
I think those flat blue spots are all Indian country. Outside of that, it's all Christian Right if you stay north of Denver.
26
@23
I would argue that the values on which the nation is founded are more those of the Englightenment than they are of the Protestant Reformation. Values such as the equality of all men and the inherent goodness and perfectibility of mankind, rather than, say values having to do with original sin and the basic corrpution and depravity of mankind. In short, America's values are more those of Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin than they are of John Calvin, though Calvinist thought undeniably left its mark (see my comment on the Salem Witch Trials above @12, above).
Thanks, though, for giving me food for thought. Have a nice day.
I would argue that the values on which the nation is founded are more those of the Englightenment than they are of the Protestant Reformation. Values such as the equality of all men and the inherent goodness and perfectibility of mankind, rather than, say values having to do with original sin and the basic corrpution and depravity of mankind. In short, America's values are more those of Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin than they are of John Calvin, though Calvinist thought undeniably left its mark (see my comment on the Salem Witch Trials above @12, above).
Thanks, though, for giving me food for thought. Have a nice day.
27
when the majority doesn't actually legally discriminate against them, but merely prevents them from legally discriminating against others
Given that discriminating and persecuting is an essential component of conservative Christianity, they really are being discriminated against and persecuted by tolerance.
Given that discriminating and persecuting is an essential component of conservative Christianity, they really are being discriminated against and persecuted by tolerance.
29
@10 - "socially liberal, fiscally conservative" means talking an overall pretty good game for social justice but never giving yourself the means of reaching these objectives, which seems fairly descriptive of Washington.
30
I find the first paragraph teasing about people moving to Texas interesting, in that the fact is offered as a second-hand anecdote from a conservative speaker. No one seems to know anyone who is specifically moving to Texas, yet the idea that some may go there is stressed heavily at the start.
31
I think if we're being fair, the U.S. was borne of Enlightenment values . . . which, in turn, were a natural consequence of the Protestant Reformation. The English version of Enlightenment deism was closer to theism than was the more crypto-atheist version favored in France.
None of which makes the U.S. a "Protestant nation." The construction of our founding documents had Protestant fingerprints because many (not all) of the founders were Protestants, but the document itself merely reflects that; it does not codify it. The freedom to study and "choose" religious values (so far as such things are chosen; as I've illustrated before, one chooses one's practices, but not so much one's beliefs, which reflect what we perceive or deduce to be true) certainly has currency in Protestantism, but it isn't exclusively or uniquely Protestant; indeed, the five solas--particularly sola scriptura--represent as crude and blatant a discouragement to inquiry as anything out of Rome or in the works of Karl Marx.
It seems to me, though, that the doctrine of free exercise of religion necessarily includes free exercise of irreligion; that is, that pluralism and moral self-determination are already built in to its foundation.
What's more, I fail to see how expanding the definition of marriage to include a greater number of possible household arrangements amounts to an imposition of any viewpoint; after all, anyone in the troll's family who actually does find him- or herself in a position to marry will be able to marry according to his/her own proclivities and beliefs, and will have that marriage recognized every bit as easily as it was before.
None of which makes the U.S. a "Protestant nation." The construction of our founding documents had Protestant fingerprints because many (not all) of the founders were Protestants, but the document itself merely reflects that; it does not codify it. The freedom to study and "choose" religious values (so far as such things are chosen; as I've illustrated before, one chooses one's practices, but not so much one's beliefs, which reflect what we perceive or deduce to be true) certainly has currency in Protestantism, but it isn't exclusively or uniquely Protestant; indeed, the five solas--particularly sola scriptura--represent as crude and blatant a discouragement to inquiry as anything out of Rome or in the works of Karl Marx.
It seems to me, though, that the doctrine of free exercise of religion necessarily includes free exercise of irreligion; that is, that pluralism and moral self-determination are already built in to its foundation.
What's more, I fail to see how expanding the definition of marriage to include a greater number of possible household arrangements amounts to an imposition of any viewpoint; after all, anyone in the troll's family who actually does find him- or herself in a position to marry will be able to marry according to his/her own proclivities and beliefs, and will have that marriage recognized every bit as easily as it was before.
32
Being Jewish during Christmas didn't make me feel like an outsider until they started attacking people for being polite to non-Christians in December by not assuming everyone celebrates Christmas. When the "War on Christmas" started, then I started to feel like an outsider, because every year we get attacks on people of other faiths to close off the year.
33
There's a conservative meme regarding the differences in state governments. I think it's called Democrats are from California, Republicans are from Texas or something.
http://townhall.com/tipsheet/chrisfield/…
Texas is prosperous because they let the rich lord over vassals of illegal immigrants and darker-colored folks without regulation.
California is bankrupt because the dirty unions let gay people create government jobs with outrageous benefits like health care and retirement security.
The truest of the true conservos believe they can save the Republic of Texas from being overrun with - god-forbid - Democrats. This is a last ditch effort against the Godless taker's assault on the Federal Branch of the US of A.
http://townhall.com/tipsheet/chrisfield/…
Texas is prosperous because they let the rich lord over vassals of illegal immigrants and darker-colored folks without regulation.
California is bankrupt because the dirty unions let gay people create government jobs with outrageous benefits like health care and retirement security.
The truest of the true conservos believe they can save the Republic of Texas from being overrun with - god-forbid - Democrats. This is a last ditch effort against the Godless taker's assault on the Federal Branch of the US of A.
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