Slog
News & ArtsFriday, November 30, 2012
LGBTQITSLFA Debora Barr Escaped the Lesbian Lifestyle
Posted by Dan Savage on Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 10:51 PM
2
The thing is you don't want to be is so crass as to say, "Based on how that person chooses to present them self they must be gay", but Dan I think you nailed it.
Picture aside, reading through her story I can't really believe that her journey for identity is really over. Deprived of quality people around her to give her self esteem her latest artificial self confidence boost is being a celebrity among the anti-gays.
Picture aside, reading through her story I can't really believe that her journey for identity is really over. Deprived of quality people around her to give her self esteem her latest artificial self confidence boost is being a celebrity among the anti-gays.
4
I wish I could get my hair to do that.
Does this mean she's been snuggling with Jesus every night for 23 years? I think I'd prefer my cat (Jesus always seems a bit scrawny).
(Can anyone link Uncle Bonsai's "Fat Boys" here? It would be appropriate, but I don't know how.)
Does this mean she's been snuggling with Jesus every night for 23 years? I think I'd prefer my cat (Jesus always seems a bit scrawny).
(Can anyone link Uncle Bonsai's "Fat Boys" here? It would be appropriate, but I don't know how.)
5
I agree. Her 15 mins. o'fame are just on pause - she'll "be back"
Just another conversion narrative to end all conversion narratives. Nothing to see here, move along.
Just another conversion narrative to end all conversion narratives. Nothing to see here, move along.
7
Any armchair psychologists up to taking a guess the what the hell is up with her? Borderline maybe? Because it seems so clear her problem is not sexual orientation but some serious personality affliction.
8
Basically, the simplest and most pure definition is that gang stalking is multiple bullies attacking one person.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.ph…
9
I find it very curious when someone describes the love of the Lord as unconditional, and then in the same breath explain that they can experience it now that they've met some sort of condition. It's sad to see faith twisted and bent like this.
10
She would have to know she is being stalked in order for it to be stalking. This is just laughing at another dipshit.
14
@11 That was my reaction. It sounded like stereotypical bed death with a Jesus twist.
Money quote: I thank God for the healthy heterosexual women who surrounded me with love as I suffered through this transition.
Money quote: I thank God for the healthy heterosexual women who surrounded me with love as I suffered through this transition.
15
Danny repeatedly tells kids that they may decide they are no longer, or not in fact, homosexual "but nobody has to believe them".
Because homosexuality is like the Hotel California.
"You can check out any time you like
but you can never leave...."
So what choice does a kid have,
who experimented with homosexuality;
maybe when they were 13 or 14;
identified as gay,
outed themselves,
but realizes now they are not homosexual?
What choice do they have?
They can declare that they are no longer, or never in fact were, gay.
And endure cruel demeaning ridicule, disbelieve and mockery from Danny and his Flying Monkeys.
Being a kid is hard enough without that.
They say that Suicide is Painless........
Because homosexuality is like the Hotel California.
"You can check out any time you like
but you can never leave...."
So what choice does a kid have,
who experimented with homosexuality;
maybe when they were 13 or 14;
identified as gay,
outed themselves,
but realizes now they are not homosexual?
What choice do they have?
They can declare that they are no longer, or never in fact were, gay.
And endure cruel demeaning ridicule, disbelieve and mockery from Danny and his Flying Monkeys.
Being a kid is hard enough without that.
They say that Suicide is Painless........
16
and are we really mocking, ridiculing and stereotyping people based on appearance?
or just people we disagree with?
which is actually a bigger asshole move than just being a general asshole....
go ahead.
laugh it up....
being a bigoted asshole is its own punishment.
or just people we disagree with?
which is actually a bigger asshole move than just being a general asshole....
go ahead.
laugh it up....
being a bigoted asshole is its own punishment.
17
Look, this seems like a tragic story of someone who has had her community rob her of a happy and fulfilling relationship. But there's no need to mock anyone based on her hair or physical appearance in general.
21
So she and her partner were living together in Vermont, where they had a civil union in 2001, and five years later they still didn't think any of their friends knew they were lesbian? This woman has spent her life turning denial into an art form.
23
9
19
the troll will be happy to explain it to you.
were there a god
he/she/it would be very smart and very benevolent.
and thus he/she/it would know,
and be willing; nay eager;
to share the Secret of Happiness with Mankind;
whom he/she/it loves and wants only the best for.
and by following the One True Path to Happiness
revealed by a very smart and very benevolent 'god'
Mankind could find;... Happiness! (duh)
now,
our 'god' loves Mankind
(individually and collectively)
even if they chose not to take
his/her/its benevolent wise advise.
he/she/it is Sad that/when/if they
(Mankind; individually and/or collectively)
reject his/her/its kind wise advise
(and thus throw away Happiness, with two hands)
but he/she/it does not tale it personally
and loves them none the less.
unconditionally.
now;
what not even 'god' can do,
however,
is to finagle the universe
such that Mankind
(individually or collectively)
can find Happiness
without following The One True Path to Happiness.
Disease, Misery, Dissipation, Turmoil, Death- shall we say 'Gomorrah'?-
these are the Fruits of paths other than
The One True Path to Happiness.
so what our short haired friend is saying
is that 'god' loves her no matter what
but she could not experience the happiness that 'god' has shown the path to
until (and unless) she followed The One True Path to Happiness.
see how that works?
19
the troll will be happy to explain it to you.
were there a god
he/she/it would be very smart and very benevolent.
and thus he/she/it would know,
and be willing; nay eager;
to share the Secret of Happiness with Mankind;
whom he/she/it loves and wants only the best for.
and by following the One True Path to Happiness
revealed by a very smart and very benevolent 'god'
Mankind could find;... Happiness! (duh)
now,
our 'god' loves Mankind
(individually and collectively)
even if they chose not to take
his/her/its benevolent wise advise.
he/she/it is Sad that/when/if they
(Mankind; individually and/or collectively)
reject his/her/its kind wise advise
(and thus throw away Happiness, with two hands)
but he/she/it does not tale it personally
and loves them none the less.
unconditionally.
now;
what not even 'god' can do,
however,
is to finagle the universe
such that Mankind
(individually or collectively)
can find Happiness
without following The One True Path to Happiness.
Disease, Misery, Dissipation, Turmoil, Death- shall we say 'Gomorrah'?-
these are the Fruits of paths other than
The One True Path to Happiness.
so what our short haired friend is saying
is that 'god' loves her no matter what
but she could not experience the happiness that 'god' has shown the path to
until (and unless) she followed The One True Path to Happiness.
see how that works?
24
website contains material not suited for children - or adults either. Somewhere Jesus is barfing His guts up, reading this claptrap nonsense!
25
ah, c'mon Dan; gay or "rehabilitated", this woman is definitely confused - and you gotta come along and rank on her haircut?
Not cool dude, not cool
Not cool dude, not cool
26
Only Dan could post something at 10:51pm Pacific on a Friday night and get 25 comments by 7:00am.
27
It's telling that of nearly all of her ex-relationships, she says of each that she was sexually abused.
It's similar to the type who are certain everyone of their many exs are asshats.
Since she is the running thread in all of these failed relationships, the asshat might be the lady in her mirror - the one who thinks God is her new squeeze.
It's similar to the type who are certain everyone of their many exs are asshats.
Since she is the running thread in all of these failed relationships, the asshat might be the lady in her mirror - the one who thinks God is her new squeeze.
28
"I am experiencing the most wholesome and unconditional love of my Savior, Jesus Christ" Jesus's love might be unconditional, but that of his followers is not. Tragic mess of a woman.
29
Wow. Sad.
She is probably bisexual. But what strikes me most about her narrative is how insecure she is and her constant desire to find security with those who seem to "have the answers" - first prefering people older than herself for friends, dating an older boyfriend in high school, suffering sexual abuse at or older than 15 with "three different older men" (how did that happen three times? - what sort of pattern is at play here?), and then through religious doctrine and those who are certain in their beliefs, as long as they show her a bit of sustained kindness. She seems to have a very weak sense of self. Her life is also a litany of bad choices without any attempt to take responsibility it - it is always other people's fault - she didn't choose to date a loser; but was betrayed by one; she didn't choose to have sex with five separate men, two of them married, they sexually assaulted and seduced her. She stayed with undesirable, abusive partners for SIX years twice, was devastated when the first woman left her. Sheesh. She's a sex slave scenario or two away from being de sade's justine.
She is a clingy, weak, immoral chameleon. She was never shackled by homosexuality. Her life has been spent shackled by her own failure to develop an adult sense of self and take responsibility for her life and make good choices. Frankly, bed death for her might be a kindness to the world or at least to anyone who might otherwise in the future make the bad choice to date her, given her inability to have a real adult loving relationship.
I would greatly pity this train wreck of a woman and life, but for the fact that by her involvment in ex-gay ministry and therapy, she is actively harming others. How this woman can read her own story and believe she has an ounce of insight into god or humanity is difficult to grasp.
More...
She is probably bisexual. But what strikes me most about her narrative is how insecure she is and her constant desire to find security with those who seem to "have the answers" - first prefering people older than herself for friends, dating an older boyfriend in high school, suffering sexual abuse at or older than 15 with "three different older men" (how did that happen three times? - what sort of pattern is at play here?), and then through religious doctrine and those who are certain in their beliefs, as long as they show her a bit of sustained kindness. She seems to have a very weak sense of self. Her life is also a litany of bad choices without any attempt to take responsibility it - it is always other people's fault - she didn't choose to date a loser; but was betrayed by one; she didn't choose to have sex with five separate men, two of them married, they sexually assaulted and seduced her. She stayed with undesirable, abusive partners for SIX years twice, was devastated when the first woman left her. Sheesh. She's a sex slave scenario or two away from being de sade's justine.
She is a clingy, weak, immoral chameleon. She was never shackled by homosexuality. Her life has been spent shackled by her own failure to develop an adult sense of self and take responsibility for her life and make good choices. Frankly, bed death for her might be a kindness to the world or at least to anyone who might otherwise in the future make the bad choice to date her, given her inability to have a real adult loving relationship.
I would greatly pity this train wreck of a woman and life, but for the fact that by her involvment in ex-gay ministry and therapy, she is actively harming others. How this woman can read her own story and believe she has an ounce of insight into god or humanity is difficult to grasp.
30
Wow. Sad story of confusion and denial aside, LaBarbera sure has a special hate-on for Dan Savage. The entire website screams self-loathing closet case. Barr should fit right in.
32
admit it kids....
your hero Danny is an asshole.
a vicious spiteful hateful bigoted bitter asshole.
a faggoty swishy version of Pat Roberts.
(who is pretty swishy himself...)
your hero Danny is an asshole.
a vicious spiteful hateful bigoted bitter asshole.
a faggoty swishy version of Pat Roberts.
(who is pretty swishy himself...)
33
Wow. That's really tragic. But I can't help thinking that she was set free less by Jesus than by actually living openly as who she is (even if she can't act on it).
Even though the whole church knew about it, *she* thought she was closeted and was aware of how unacceptable they would find her 'if only they knew.' So she comes out *only* when she is prepared to change her life to be the way they want it. And is surprised that they still accept her, even though she's a dirty sinner. So she can finally fit in and feel acceptable to the people around her, even as a lesbian. Voila, sense of freedom. Though with conditions, of course.
Even though the whole church knew about it, *she* thought she was closeted and was aware of how unacceptable they would find her 'if only they knew.' So she comes out *only* when she is prepared to change her life to be the way they want it. And is surprised that they still accept her, even though she's a dirty sinner. So she can finally fit in and feel acceptable to the people around her, even as a lesbian. Voila, sense of freedom. Though with conditions, of course.
34
She said she'd renounce the "lifestyle", not have sex with guys. But she does say she's not gay anymore (and never was?) but doesn't say she's had any heterosexual relationships since, which if she had I'm sure would have been mentioned. Also, I'd wager the Baptist churches of Vermont are composed of the most tolerant patient Baptists out there - they'd have to be to live in super liberal land. It's not that they were super outreachy to her - they'd be that way to anyone who stumbles in the door - how many Baptists live in VT 10? 20? Conservative churches live to recruit! They don't like you for being gay, etc. if you started out in the faith. Then you are betraying, rather than just being ignorant.
35
what a sad story. what struck me most was this - "I also grieved the loss of what my life could have been if I had married and had children of my own, realizing now that I may never marry and have a family of my own."
Given the relationships she'd had with men, I don't think what her life "could have been" is anything to mourn.
Given the relationships she'd had with men, I don't think what her life "could have been" is anything to mourn.
37
She's totally screwed up, but she's dangerous, too. Though her life has been one of confusion, she's chosen to join "a national organization devoted exclusively to exposing and countering the homosexual activist agenda."
So fuck her haircut.
So fuck her haircut.
39
That poor woman has a lot of healing left to do. She needs to figure out what "unconditional" really means. She needs to accept and love herself unconditionally before she gets it right. Sexual orientation is just an aspect of who we are, and there is no right or wrong to it. It just is. I am very glad she didn't have kids. It would have been so unfair to pass that hot mess on to another generation.
40
Everything about that photo is straight out of the 90's. The side spike hairdo (very Zack Morris), the backdrop, the overuse of Photoshop on her face, and I would say the shirt too, but I think that's going even further back.
42
Really Dan? I'm sure it's not that bad I mean talk about stretching. Now let me click on the link and have a look. I mean really.........
DEAR FUCKING GOD!! LOOK AT HER?!?!? Isn't that the picture in the Webster Dictionary that they use with the definition of "Carpet-Muncher". I mean I met lesbians on Harley's who don't look nearly as butch as she does. WOW!!! Are we sure she doesn't work at the Wild Rose? Or at least a softball team?
DEAR FUCKING GOD!! LOOK AT HER?!?!? Isn't that the picture in the Webster Dictionary that they use with the definition of "Carpet-Muncher". I mean I met lesbians on Harley's who don't look nearly as butch as she does. WOW!!! Are we sure she doesn't work at the Wild Rose? Or at least a softball team?
43
"When I was 15 ... I rejected God and completely turned my back on him, denying that he even existed."
Wow. Teen angst. You are so special! No one else has ever gone through that.
"I struggled for the next couple of years with deep depression and attempts at suicide."
Plural "attempts"?
As a teenager?
"There, I experienced sexual abuse from three different older men ..."
Three?
"... I was also seduced by two different married men ..."
Two?
The story seems to be about the pain that SHE has been subjected to by OTHER people.
She goes from bad relationship to bad relationship.
And it is always the other person who betrays her in her search for love and acceptance and safety.
Until she find Jesus again. Because Jesus will never abandon you. Even if you abandon Jesus.
She's found the narrative that she wants to work from now and it is all about her.
Wow. Teen angst. You are so special! No one else has ever gone through that.
"I struggled for the next couple of years with deep depression and attempts at suicide."
Plural "attempts"?
As a teenager?
"There, I experienced sexual abuse from three different older men ..."
Three?
"... I was also seduced by two different married men ..."
Two?
The story seems to be about the pain that SHE has been subjected to by OTHER people.
She goes from bad relationship to bad relationship.
And it is always the other person who betrays her in her search for love and acceptance and safety.
Until she find Jesus again. Because Jesus will never abandon you. Even if you abandon Jesus.
She's found the narrative that she wants to work from now and it is all about her.
44
Wow. It sounds like that church rescued her just in time...right as she seemed to be establishing the first long-term, stable relationship of her life.
Yep, she really dodged a bullet there.
Fuck these people.
Yep, she really dodged a bullet there.
Fuck these people.
45
@34: There are probably more than you'd imagine. I'm no longer Christian, but when I was, I was a member of a *very* liberal (and Welcoming and Affirming) Baptist church. Traditionally, two major Baptist distinctives are the soul freedom of the individual believer and the autonomy of the individual congregation. A congregation has the power to decide its membership, as does a denomination (in a rather broad sense of the term), and so a congregation can decide not to have an individual as a member if they feel that person is a heretic, and a denomination can do likewise with a congregation, but neither has the authority to command their members to believe this or that. Combine that with the incredible array of Baptist denominations, and the large number of Baptist churches that aren't associated with a denomination at all, and there's a lot of room for variation in what Baptists believe.
47
As chromie's #13 note noted, you -- Dan -- have your own tab on that despicable site. You should be enormously proud! No sarcasm, no snark, true true.
48
Unfortunately, many straight women get lesbian haircuts around the age of 40. Given the amount of grey in her hair I wouldn't read that much into the cut.
Why do I say this is unfortunate? Because as a straight guy I don't find those cuts attractive. The odd thing is that if you read comment threads where straight women defend the idea that older women should get these cuts, they use the fact that they are unattractive to men as a prime reason for getting them. Women are mysterious. Gay dudes are lucky.
Why do I say this is unfortunate? Because as a straight guy I don't find those cuts attractive. The odd thing is that if you read comment threads where straight women defend the idea that older women should get these cuts, they use the fact that they are unattractive to men as a prime reason for getting them. Women are mysterious. Gay dudes are lucky.
49
No, gay dudes aren't especially lucky. I'm straight too, but have you ever been around a 40- or 50-year-old gay guy who's feeling old and washed-up? It's nothing you ever want to see.
Nevertheless, that's one of the most Godawful haircuts I've ever seen in my life. No dispute there.
Nevertheless, that's one of the most Godawful haircuts I've ever seen in my life. No dispute there.
51
She had sex and relationships with men and women and apparently all of them were abusive and toxic.
So, now she has a deep, personal relationship with Jesus but she's said nothing about having healthy relationships with men or that she's craving cock now.
So, now she has a deep, personal relationship with Jesus but she's said nothing about having healthy relationships with men or that she's craving cock now.
52
So now she's found Jeebus, after all that tribulation and searching. Good. Looks like another case of female 'fluid sexuality' from here, but she's not running out and finding herself a good man?
What a crock, but it's nice Jeebus has made her a decent human being after all those years of sin. Praise Him!
Dan- Way to go, man! Your own tab on a hater site.
What a crock, but it's nice Jeebus has made her a decent human being after all those years of sin. Praise Him!
Dan- Way to go, man! Your own tab on a hater site.
55
What about her last girlfriend?
The one she "entered into a Civil Union" with in 2001.
"We bought property together and built our dream home, co-mingling everything we owned."
My partner and I found a church that we loved the first time we attended service.
"We were determined that over time we would bring change to the church and eventually they would openly accept gays as we showed them that our love for each other was pure."
But then ... !
"We requested baptism, and were both called into the assistant pastor’s office where he told us he didn’t know if he could baptize us since we were living in sin ..."
"After a long discussion where we both told him that we would walk away from our lifestyle if that is what God told us to do ..."
So the woman you loved and civil unioned and bought property with ... both of you were okay with a decision to end sex after "a long discussion".
"Over the next two years, I became more and more involved in the church."
Two years so far without sex.
"They confronted our beliefs in a gentle and loving way, never backing down from their convictions, but gently showing us what the scriptures said about the way we were living."
Hadn't you already given up sex? So you were more like roommates. Except with a previous romantic history.
"We began by moving into separate bedrooms in our house, and eventually, my partner moved out."
So the girlfriend seems to be a cypher who just facilitates whatever the author wants at the time she wants it.
And is not mentioned again.
"I thank God for the healthy heterosexual women who surrounded me with love as I suffered through this transition."
And nothing for the woman who facilitated that entire process.
More...
The one she "entered into a Civil Union" with in 2001.
"We bought property together and built our dream home, co-mingling everything we owned."
My partner and I found a church that we loved the first time we attended service.
"We were determined that over time we would bring change to the church and eventually they would openly accept gays as we showed them that our love for each other was pure."
But then ... !
"We requested baptism, and were both called into the assistant pastor’s office where he told us he didn’t know if he could baptize us since we were living in sin ..."
"After a long discussion where we both told him that we would walk away from our lifestyle if that is what God told us to do ..."
So the woman you loved and civil unioned and bought property with ... both of you were okay with a decision to end sex after "a long discussion".
"Over the next two years, I became more and more involved in the church."
Two years so far without sex.
"They confronted our beliefs in a gentle and loving way, never backing down from their convictions, but gently showing us what the scriptures said about the way we were living."
Hadn't you already given up sex? So you were more like roommates. Except with a previous romantic history.
"We began by moving into separate bedrooms in our house, and eventually, my partner moved out."
So the girlfriend seems to be a cypher who just facilitates whatever the author wants at the time she wants it.
And is not mentioned again.
"I thank God for the healthy heterosexual women who surrounded me with love as I suffered through this transition."
And nothing for the woman who facilitated that entire process.
56
@55: I'm guessing the girlfriend came to her senses and found a church and a partner who didn't demand that she be celibate and self-loathing.
57
I would just like to take this moment and thank the troll for continually reinforcing my decision to never join a church. @23 is a masterpiece of...something. Tortured make-believe? Anyway, thanks dude!
We now return to our regularly scheduled program.
We now return to our regularly scheduled program.
60
“Hutch” says Romney would have won had he exposed President Barack Obama’s radical record on “same-sex marriage,” abortion and other social issues because that would have motivated more Christians and conservatives to go to the polls.
Did I miss something? Did Obama take a position on same-sex marraige? Why wasn't it in the Mainstream Media?? Damn liberal agenda!
Did I miss something? Did Obama take a position on same-sex marraige? Why wasn't it in the Mainstream Media?? Damn liberal agenda!
61
@55 I think that they agreed that IF God told them not to have sex, they would stop, but didn't at that point. Then 2 years later when they stopped sleeping together, they presumably also stopped "sleeping together".
That said, yeah, she comments more on her abusive partners than the nice one. Get this lady to therapy. She EXPECTS you to tell her she needs to change. That's why the hetero women were better partners than her lover.
That said, yeah, she comments more on her abusive partners than the nice one. Get this lady to therapy. She EXPECTS you to tell her she needs to change. That's why the hetero women were better partners than her lover.
63
@29 & @43 noticed the same things I did in this sad victim's tale. This woman is a lifelong doormat and follower who has blamed others for every problem and every bad relationship in her life. And now she's recovered and ready to counsel others? Creepy.
64
I have all the sympathy in the world for people who get this screwed up over their sexuality, particularly when religion gets involved and does the screwing. I am willing to give them all the sympathy and forgiveness in the world... until they turn around and start advocating for the screwing over they received.
As the victim of this religious brainwashing I feel sorry for her. As a shill for the brainwashers trying to convince other people to fuck themselves up as badly as she is, I have none. Once she becomes an agent of the people wanting to fuck gay people over she becomes one of them.
As the victim of this religious brainwashing I feel sorry for her. As a shill for the brainwashers trying to convince other people to fuck themselves up as badly as she is, I have none. Once she becomes an agent of the people wanting to fuck gay people over she becomes one of them.
65
In science, we call this "cherry picking your data".
"SEE!?" they say, "IT'S TRUE! IT REALLY IS POSSIBLE! WE HAVE ONE ANECDOTE OUT OF TENS OF THOUSANDS OF TRIALS!"
I'm sorry, but with a 99.9% failure rate, that's not success. That's confirmation bias.
"SEE!?" they say, "IT'S TRUE! IT REALLY IS POSSIBLE! WE HAVE ONE ANECDOTE OUT OF TENS OF THOUSANDS OF TRIALS!"
I'm sorry, but with a 99.9% failure rate, that's not success. That's confirmation bias.
66
No, in science we call this "making up crap."
There's no evidence to indicate she's become heterosexual, only that she's stopped dating.
There's no evidence to indicate she's become heterosexual, only that she's stopped dating.
67
@65: But she's not happy, or a complete person. She's still being told that she can only embrace Jesus if she's chaste and alone for life.
Its a 0% success rate.
Its a 0% success rate.
69
Oh this poor, poor woman. What a blighted life, and now she wants spread that to others. Like some sort of lesbian leaf rot. :(
71
@8:
'Gang stalking' is also a phenomenon that exists entirely in the minds of lunatics.
I mean, not that I'm suggesting that someone who calls themselves Supreme Ruler of the Universe could be nuts.
'Gang stalking' is also a phenomenon that exists entirely in the minds of lunatics.
I mean, not that I'm suggesting that someone who calls themselves Supreme Ruler of the Universe could be nuts.
72
She mentions "the healthy heterosexual women who surrounded me with love as I suffered through this transition", and several other women, but she doesn't seem to have had many important relationships with men (other than negative and abusive ones).
She doesn't come across as 'anti-male', but as just not very interested in men.
She doesn't come across as 'anti-male', but as just not very interested in men.
73
Great. Now I have to get that horrible website out of my head. Couldn't you have just posted the picture Dan?
74
@15 - The fact is, we only ever have one's word for anything related to internal processes. Not all people who have one, or even several, homosexual experience(s) are necessarily homosexual. So when those people declare one way or the other, we can either believe them or not believe them, and we will often do so based on appearance, sexual history, and other external markers. It's an imperfect system, which is to say that it's yet another human system for determining truth.
I could start writing with my right hand, if I wanted to; it would be months, at least, before it became legible, but I could do it. It still wouldn't make me right-handed. Are you obligated to believe that? Obviously not. You only have my word for it that I'm left-handed. Conversely, I could say that I'd become more proficient at writing with my right hand than I'd ever been with my left--that I was not, in fact, left-handed, but had come to believe that I was
by way of negligence, faulty reasoning, or lack of exposure to "normal" right-handed behavior. And you'd STILL have to evaluate that story on what you perceived to be its merits and determine for yourself whether it rings true.
I could start writing with my right hand, if I wanted to; it would be months, at least, before it became legible, but I could do it. It still wouldn't make me right-handed. Are you obligated to believe that? Obviously not. You only have my word for it that I'm left-handed. Conversely, I could say that I'd become more proficient at writing with my right hand than I'd ever been with my left--that I was not, in fact, left-handed, but had come to believe that I was
by way of negligence, faulty reasoning, or lack of exposure to "normal" right-handed behavior. And you'd STILL have to evaluate that story on what you perceived to be its merits and determine for yourself whether it rings true.
75
@23 - And you cast aspersions on MY word count?
@59 - It's fine, as far as it goes, aside from being predicated on a rather huge "if"--that is, IF there is a conscious, immutable, morally preoccupied, essentially anthropomorphic deity, and if the Bible (for instance; feel free to insert the theistic text of your choice) represents his/her/its will, then what you say comes dangerously close to making sense. Of course, we have no direct evidence of this, which brings us to a fatal flaw--in a faith-based system (as opposed to a works-based system), we are responsible not for what we do (for man is so stained with sin that his works are as "filthy rags"), but for what we believe. Except we do not choose what we believe, so far as we define "belief" as they do in philosophy--namely, as the holding of a given posit as true. Since belief cannot be either counter-factual (though it can be extra-factual) or counter-intuitive, one can only hold beliefs for which one's perceptions (and aptitude for organizing those perceptions).
A works-based system seems marginally better, but again, it relies on one believing, at least, in both the deity and the veracity of the revealed text to determine what "works" this deity prefers, or the "sins" from which this deity would have us abstain.
Thus, there is no recourse to actual choice in a system requiring the favor of deity to achieve salvation . . . unless, of course, said deity sees fit to make his/her/its existence and intentions known by way of irrefutable evidence. Indeed, if such a being existed (and as a Nichiren Buddhist, I don't believe it does), I'm inclined to say that opposing it is a moral imperative, since it's essentially making a game of chance out of the individual's salvation.
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@59 - It's fine, as far as it goes, aside from being predicated on a rather huge "if"--that is, IF there is a conscious, immutable, morally preoccupied, essentially anthropomorphic deity, and if the Bible (for instance; feel free to insert the theistic text of your choice) represents his/her/its will, then what you say comes dangerously close to making sense. Of course, we have no direct evidence of this, which brings us to a fatal flaw--in a faith-based system (as opposed to a works-based system), we are responsible not for what we do (for man is so stained with sin that his works are as "filthy rags"), but for what we believe. Except we do not choose what we believe, so far as we define "belief" as they do in philosophy--namely, as the holding of a given posit as true. Since belief cannot be either counter-factual (though it can be extra-factual) or counter-intuitive, one can only hold beliefs for which one's perceptions (and aptitude for organizing those perceptions).
A works-based system seems marginally better, but again, it relies on one believing, at least, in both the deity and the veracity of the revealed text to determine what "works" this deity prefers, or the "sins" from which this deity would have us abstain.
Thus, there is no recourse to actual choice in a system requiring the favor of deity to achieve salvation . . . unless, of course, said deity sees fit to make his/her/its existence and intentions known by way of irrefutable evidence. Indeed, if such a being existed (and as a Nichiren Buddhist, I don't believe it does), I'm inclined to say that opposing it is a moral imperative, since it's essentially making a game of chance out of the individual's salvation.
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