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News & ArtsTuesday, November 20, 2012
Savage Love SL Letter of the Day: Having His Baby
Posted by Dan Savage on Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 9:42 AM
I'm on hiatus while working on a manuscript for a new book. In the meantime, please enjoy these classic Savage Love letters pulled from previous columns. I will be back when the book is finished. —Dan
Originally published August 23, 2007:
I'm a 24-year-old female and I've been with my boyfriend for five years. We're transitioning to a long-distance relationship in January when he moves a hojillion miles away to go to law school. He's 28, an angel, and I want to have a baby. He doesn't want to have a baby, and he's made it clear that if I give him an ultimatum, he'll dump my ass. I'm longing to spawn, so I've decided to get pregnant and not tell him. He has nothing to do with birth control, never has, so my plan will succeed. I'm going to do this: That's not in question.
The question is, do I tell him? I'm not going to dun him for child support, but I'd let him be as involved as he wants to be—pictures, visits, moving in together. I'm never going to tell him that I got knocked up on purpose. I could also pretend that the brat is someone else's, but that would require some fudging of dates. So what, if anything, do I tell him, and when?
E.
My response after the jump...
Not only is what you're planning to do unfair to your boyfriend—who, just like a woman, has a right to decide when, whether, and with whom he would like to reproduce (and who, like most men, needs to be more proactive about birth control to protect his right to make that decision)—it's hugely unfair to any "brat" unlucky enough to drop from your twat.
But, hey, your mind is made up—you're doing this thing. And I'm not running your letter to argue with you, E. I'm only running it in hopes that a certain 28-year-old who's about to go to law school sees it, recognizes himself, and dumps his 24-year-old batshitcrazy girlfriend.
And yes, everybody, I realize this letter could be fake. But just in case it's not, here it is.
3
I think the potential social benefit of giving that advice is outweighed by the harm of giving obvious an MRA trolls a mouthpiece on a progressive sexuality blog.
4
I hope that a certain 29ish year old sees this and lets us all know if she did go through with her plan to bring a "brat" into this world. I'm dying to know now.
5
If this is real and if this woman had a baby with this guy as dad, I'm pretty sure that the second she saw how frickin' hard it is to be a single mom and pay the bills and stay sane, that she told the guy he was a daddy.
6
@3: If you do not think a man has just as much right (and responsibility) to his body and reproduction than a woman does, you are at best a sexist, and really just a complete idiot. A woman using a man's seed to impregnante herself without consent is no different than a man slippng off the condom before he finishes. Both are horrid violations of a deep trust.
Asserting every individual's right to their own body and reproductive freedom is basic humanity and decency, not "MRA trolling."
People like you are the reason so many people can not take feminism seriously, because you think that sexism is ok as long as it is not directed towards your sex.
Your thought process and philosophical outlook is bereft of introspection and belongs in a middle school.
Asserting every individual's right to their own body and reproductive freedom is basic humanity and decency, not "MRA trolling."
People like you are the reason so many people can not take feminism seriously, because you think that sexism is ok as long as it is not directed towards your sex.
Your thought process and philosophical outlook is bereft of introspection and belongs in a middle school.
7
Fake: This is one of those Men's Rights morons. They all believe women are out to get their jizz and plotting to get knocked up on the sly. Seriously, if a single woman wanted a kid and her long-distance-boyfriend didn't, she'd find someone else or just go to a sperm bank.
10
@6:
I agree, that a man has just as much a right to decide if he wants to procreate and with whom as a woman.
That said, @7 has a point. When I wanted to have a baby, and my then-boyfriend didn't, several male friends told me to ditch birth control and not tell my then-bf. No female friends told me to do that.
Since then, I am sure it is a male phobia. And not necessarily based on a reality of females doing that often.
I agree, that a man has just as much a right to decide if he wants to procreate and with whom as a woman.
That said, @7 has a point. When I wanted to have a baby, and my then-boyfriend didn't, several male friends told me to ditch birth control and not tell my then-bf. No female friends told me to do that.
Since then, I am sure it is a male phobia. And not necessarily based on a reality of females doing that often.
11
@6 One thing I'll add... As far as pregnancy is concerned? Yes, it's a bigger deal for women. This is one time when, "It's not sexism; it's biology" is true. For those nine-plus months, the woman has to do all the work. Only after the child is born can the man and woman even potentially be parents equally. That's why I think the woman should have a bigger say than the man in these matters. She takes the risk and does the work.
As for exactly what this has to do with this particular situation... Yes, this woman is a nutjob scoundrel to deliberately sicc her boyfriend with responsibilities that he's made quite that he doesn't want. It reminds me of the "Not Your Phat Daddy" letter. This woman should be saying "Thank you for letting me know that we don't want the same things. I will now dump you and look for someone else."
As for exactly what this has to do with this particular situation... Yes, this woman is a nutjob scoundrel to deliberately sicc her boyfriend with responsibilities that he's made quite that he doesn't want. It reminds me of the "Not Your Phat Daddy" letter. This woman should be saying "Thank you for letting me know that we don't want the same things. I will now dump you and look for someone else."
12
@6: Calm your tits. What @3 is saying is not "men don't have the right to control whether they reproduce". What he/she is saying is that the person who wrote this letter is probably an MRA troll, because yelling and screaming about 'spermjacking' is far more often the purvey of MRA trolls than of actual, real batshitcrazy women. What he/she is saying is that this letter is fake. I don't necessarily agree with him/her; just thought I'd inform you that you might have misinterpreted the intent of that comment.
13
@12 Oh, kind of like "victims" being found with hate words written on their bodies. It's something that people faking sexual attacks do a lot but something that actual sexual attackers do only rarely. I get it.
14
I'm not condoning what this woman may or may not have done 5 years ago, BUT: men who don't want babies should take a more active role in birth control.
15
If you don't want to become a father, don't put your sperm in any pre-menopausal women. Easy peasy. It sucks if your lady is crazy enough to pretend to be on birth control, but that's the risk you assume when you don't wrap your willy (not to mention STIs...)
16
I'm hoping this is a fake letter. I know 24 is still pretty young, but you've learned something by then hopefully. Having a kid without informed consent is really stupid and incredibly selfish. If boyfriend doesn't want a kid (and who would enveloped in the rigors of law school?), hey...go Mormon. They're always up for it. And there's plenty of cute, twenty-year-old Mormon guys out there longing to be fathers - the sooner the better.
18
@14 & 15
YES. Ejaculation is the birth control moment for guys (though, if I had a penis, I wouldn't risk it with pre-cum either, not to mention STIs). So, ya know, your choice.
YES. Ejaculation is the birth control moment for guys (though, if I had a penis, I wouldn't risk it with pre-cum either, not to mention STIs). So, ya know, your choice.
19
Reminds me of my sister-in-law. Mid-thirties, wanted a baby come hell or high water. Mind you, she did get her boyfriend's consent for the pregnancy first by way of an ultimatum, forgetting to mention that her plan was to dump him as soon as she was knocked up. Which is exactly what she did.
The other difference is she was more than happy to dun the father for child support--is still dunning, as far as I know, much to the disadvantage of his ex-wife and their two children, poor sap. She reviles him now for being a character-less push-over and a poor father. Blames him for my nephew's anxieties and anti-social behavior and is trying to block his access to the boy, all the while cheerfully collecting his money.
So yes, @7, there are women like this out there. She's a lawyer and a teacher, btw, in case you had other pre-conceived notions. Her situation is legally supported, and morally supported by her own feminist rhetoric.
The other difference is she was more than happy to dun the father for child support--is still dunning, as far as I know, much to the disadvantage of his ex-wife and their two children, poor sap. She reviles him now for being a character-less push-over and a poor father. Blames him for my nephew's anxieties and anti-social behavior and is trying to block his access to the boy, all the while cheerfully collecting his money.
So yes, @7, there are women like this out there. She's a lawyer and a teacher, btw, in case you had other pre-conceived notions. Her situation is legally supported, and morally supported by her own feminist rhetoric.
20
@14, 15, 18: Which is why we need a greater variety of birth control methods for men. Condoms work, and people should use them, but there really needs to be a male equivalent to the pill.
21
The idea that there is a single deceptive woman on the planet is unthinkable. This letter must be an MRA plot!
22
@20
I completely agree. We also need to work on men's attitudes toward reproductive responsibility and sexual equality in general. I'm hopeful. Check out this serious possibilities for male bc:
http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archiv…
http://www.wired.com/magazine/2011/04/ff…
I completely agree. We also need to work on men's attitudes toward reproductive responsibility and sexual equality in general. I'm hopeful. Check out this serious possibilities for male bc:
http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archiv…
http://www.wired.com/magazine/2011/04/ff…
23
When I was fresh out of college doing seasonal work I was shacking up with this dude who was a little bit older, he was 32. That man always wore a condom. Then after a while we were all talking in a group and while telling a story about one of his ex's he used the phrase "she killed my baby". And young fresh out of college me was like: Yikes!
But at least he was covering his bases with me.
But at least he was covering his bases with me.
24
@6. Of course men have both rights and responsibilities when it comes to parenting and childbearing. Of course, if you were able to confirm that someone was making the choices that this letter's purported writer was making and had a bearing on her life, then you would be in the right to tell her not to do something as violating as that plan.
But seriously, the internet is chock full of men who fantasize about women doing this, yet I've never heard about it outside of Tucker Max-type stories. It could be a real letter, I suppose, but in the absence of any confirming evidence, one should assume it's some MRA trash.
But seriously, the internet is chock full of men who fantasize about women doing this, yet I've never heard about it outside of Tucker Max-type stories. It could be a real letter, I suppose, but in the absence of any confirming evidence, one should assume it's some MRA trash.
25
If Dan's only reason for posting that letter back then was hoping the guy would see it and recognize himself, what's the reason for reposting it now? It's too late either way...
Maybe he's hoping one of them will e-mail him a follow-up?
Maybe he's hoping one of them will e-mail him a follow-up?
28
@26...I assume you are addressing @19?
And @19, "the father" is your brother, right? The woman who got your brother's consent to try to get pregnant was your sister-in-law, if I read your comment correctly. But then you say it was her boyfriend?:
"Reminds me of my sister-in-law...Mind you, she did get her boyfriend's consent for the pregnancy..."
I'm confused. Was your brother married to this woman or was he just her boyfriend? Did she have a boyfriend while married to your brother and got HIS consent? Who is the father in relation to you?
Phew.
And @19, "the father" is your brother, right? The woman who got your brother's consent to try to get pregnant was your sister-in-law, if I read your comment correctly. But then you say it was her boyfriend?:
"Reminds me of my sister-in-law...Mind you, she did get her boyfriend's consent for the pregnancy..."
I'm confused. Was your brother married to this woman or was he just her boyfriend? Did she have a boyfriend while married to your brother and got HIS consent? Who is the father in relation to you?
Phew.
30
I hope if you answered this today, you would add to your advice: "I'm only running it in hopes that a certain 28-year-old who's about to go to law school sees it, recognizes himself, STARTS WEARING CONDOMS THAT HE BRINGS TO THE PARTY and dumps his 24-year-old batshitcrazy girlfriend."
31
If he really, "has nothing to do with birth control, never has," then he has relinquished the right to say when he has a kid.
32
@19 "Her situation is legally supported, and morally supported by her own feminist rhetoric."
Well, you DID say she got consent from whoever the father is (again, your brother? It's odd you never say "my brother," if only in terms of keeping track of who's who in your anecdote.)
So...yeah, he gave the go ahead and presumably we can trust his ability to make choices for himself and that he wanted the kid (your nephew). Not the same situation as this letter; though, it is telling that you see them as similar, use the term "feminist rhetoric" as though it's definition is 'manipulation,' and completely disregard any kind of responsibility on the part of the father (aka your brother). You also assume to know the motivations, thoughts and feelings of this woman (your ex sister-in-law or just your brother's ex-girlfriend, you aren't very clear on that) while never mentioning what the father thinks and feels about this situation, though you appear to be more closely related to him.
Definitely giving off whiffs of MRA-stench, LateBloomer.
Well, you DID say she got consent from whoever the father is (again, your brother? It's odd you never say "my brother," if only in terms of keeping track of who's who in your anecdote.)
So...yeah, he gave the go ahead and presumably we can trust his ability to make choices for himself and that he wanted the kid (your nephew). Not the same situation as this letter; though, it is telling that you see them as similar, use the term "feminist rhetoric" as though it's definition is 'manipulation,' and completely disregard any kind of responsibility on the part of the father (aka your brother). You also assume to know the motivations, thoughts and feelings of this woman (your ex sister-in-law or just your brother's ex-girlfriend, you aren't very clear on that) while never mentioning what the father thinks and feels about this situation, though you appear to be more closely related to him.
Definitely giving off whiffs of MRA-stench, LateBloomer.
33
@20: Well, not to mention women who may not understand their partners' choice to not "trust" them. Or who hate condoms.
Saying it's an onus on a guy just to wear a condom every time because somebody might be batshit CRAZY and unethical enough -- like, this is pretty damn evil -- to deliberately conceive without his consent is just ... exhausting to think about. I'd be worrying about a tooooooon of other shit way more likely to happen if I worried about this.
Using condoms is still an excellent, excellent idea, if just for the added functionality, but I don't think anybody can ever be considered stupid or irresponsible or passive for trusting their partner on this kind of stuff. It's a deep, intimate trust, but plenty of people do this just fine, because, you know, they're not crazy and evil. This deception is so outside the realm of normal thinking that realistically you can't prepare for it unless you have a demonstrable reason to.
Saying it's an onus on a guy just to wear a condom every time because somebody might be batshit CRAZY and unethical enough -- like, this is pretty damn evil -- to deliberately conceive without his consent is just ... exhausting to think about. I'd be worrying about a tooooooon of other shit way more likely to happen if I worried about this.
Using condoms is still an excellent, excellent idea, if just for the added functionality, but I don't think anybody can ever be considered stupid or irresponsible or passive for trusting their partner on this kind of stuff. It's a deep, intimate trust, but plenty of people do this just fine, because, you know, they're not crazy and evil. This deception is so outside the realm of normal thinking that realistically you can't prepare for it unless you have a demonstrable reason to.
34
femwanderluster:
The problem with "MRA-stench" is that in addition to being a naturally occurring product it is also generated artificially and sprayed on any male when it is convenient to do so. It's sort of like "un-American" or some other such term for the right: it too often means "someone who disagrees with me or my given ideology".
The problem with "MRA-stench" is that in addition to being a naturally occurring product it is also generated artificially and sprayed on any male when it is convenient to do so. It's sort of like "un-American" or some other such term for the right: it too often means "someone who disagrees with me or my given ideology".
35
@28/32: I believe the legal relationship you are trying to derive is "my husband's sister, aka crazy pants."
In this week of Thanksgiving, we should all remember that however wild and wacky the relatives, through birth or marriage, we will face over the cranberry sauce, someone else has wilder ones.
In this week of Thanksgiving, we should all remember that however wild and wacky the relatives, through birth or marriage, we will face over the cranberry sauce, someone else has wilder ones.
36
idaho noted,
If he really, "has nothing to do with birth control, never has," then he has relinquished the right to say when he has a kid.It depends on what you mean by "nothing to do with birth control". I've seen people use that phrase (inaccurately) to describe an agreement between the couple that the birth control that they will be using will be the woman's, such as the pill. So, if they agree that they will be leaving it up to her then the unilateral cessation is a breach of the agreement, and not one that can be rendered his fault via an allegation of abdication of responsibility or rights.
37
I can probably summarize how the rest of this discussion will go. There are certain very predictable outcomes:
* Some MRAs will spout, whether they admit to being MRAs or not.
* Such MRAs will assume that all or most women can / will/ do act like this, if given the chance.
* People having examples of women acting horribly will be called MRAs, whether they are or not.
* Some feminists will see any critique of any woman or any problem as evidence of MRA-dom; they will assert that no woman can / will/ do act like this, or if somebody has an example then that is a random crazy woman event that doesn't count.
Look, spend some time talking to divorce lawyers. People of either gender can be utter, total, selfish monsters, and are with dismaying frequency and predictability. It does a gender discussion no good to slip into simplistic good/bad assumptions.
* Some MRAs will spout, whether they admit to being MRAs or not.
* Such MRAs will assume that all or most women can / will/ do act like this, if given the chance.
* People having examples of women acting horribly will be called MRAs, whether they are or not.
* Some feminists will see any critique of any woman or any problem as evidence of MRA-dom; they will assert that no woman can / will/ do act like this, or if somebody has an example then that is a random crazy woman event that doesn't count.
Look, spend some time talking to divorce lawyers. People of either gender can be utter, total, selfish monsters, and are with dismaying frequency and predictability. It does a gender discussion no good to slip into simplistic good/bad assumptions.
38
@34 I did say "whiffs"...though, the point of your comment is vague to me. Some people sometimes are called out as MRA when they are not MRA? Okay...
I'm trying to understand @19's confusing comment, which I've reread a number of times. The language in @19, as I pointed out in my comment @32, is what is pinging my MRA radar. I'd love to hear from LateBloomer on this.
I'm trying to understand @19's confusing comment, which I've reread a number of times. The language in @19, as I pointed out in my comment @32, is what is pinging my MRA radar. I'd love to hear from LateBloomer on this.
39
If this was real, then it sucks that two people with very different desires when it comes to reproduction started and maintained a sexual relationship regardless. It's just not fair to either partner.
40
@37 "Some feminists will see any critique of any woman or any problem as evidence of MRA-dom; they will assert that no woman can / will/ do act like this, or if somebody has an example then that is a random crazy woman event that doesn't count."
I can't relate to this ^ Women are not exempt from being misogynists. Nor are all choices every woman makes feminist just because she's a woman. Indeed, if as @35 says, @19 is a woman, it doesn't change the fact that it still gives off MRA vibes, since, ya know, women can be MRAs, too.
The thing that reveals MRA-ness to me is a person's discussion of the woman's actions as if the man had no choices or responsibility in his own actions in regard to a pregnancy resulting from consensual sex that is carried to term, after which, surprise surprise, they are both now parents.
I can't relate to this ^ Women are not exempt from being misogynists. Nor are all choices every woman makes feminist just because she's a woman. Indeed, if as @35 says, @19 is a woman, it doesn't change the fact that it still gives off MRA vibes, since, ya know, women can be MRAs, too.
The thing that reveals MRA-ness to me is a person's discussion of the woman's actions as if the man had no choices or responsibility in his own actions in regard to a pregnancy resulting from consensual sex that is carried to term, after which, surprise surprise, they are both now parents.
41
"Women are not exempt from being misogynists."
Or men from being misandrists, for that matter.
"Nor are all choices every woman makes feminist just because she's a woman."
True, if difficult to hear because of the heavy tread of No True Scotsman marching towards the conversation.
Or men from being misandrists, for that matter.
"Nor are all choices every woman makes feminist just because she's a woman."
True, if difficult to hear because of the heavy tread of No True Scotsman marching towards the conversation.
42
@19 and @32, It's your spouse's sister (that's the only way I can figure that the bf is not his brother)? If SIL is an attorney and teacher and collecting child support from this guy *against his will*, he should see a lawyer. Particularly if SIL is married to someone else, the likelihood that ex-bf is paying much in child support is very, very low. If he agreed to have the baby with her, then why shouldn't he have a support responsibility? If he wanted the baby (as you acknowledge), why didn't he sue for visitation or custody? Would it be more acceptable if SIL had lived in this guy's home for a few years while the baby was young and pretended to love him, then dump him? While it's despicable if she misrepresented herself as you claim, as others have pointed out, this kind of shit is exactly why we need feminism-- so women don't believe (falsely) that this is what one must resort to to have a baby.
43
@7 - Yes, the MRA people are morons, but I come from a long, proud line of white trash from deep in shotgun-wedding country. I've seen women do this to my male family members. Yes, members is pluralized.
If I ever have a son, I'm going to teach him that women are to be respected and treated as equals, and that no means no, and all that good stuff. But I'm also going to teach him that some girls are batshit crazy and can fuck up your life.
If I ever have a son, I'm going to teach him that women are to be respected and treated as equals, and that no means no, and all that good stuff. But I'm also going to teach him that some girls are batshit crazy and can fuck up your life.
44
@33 is right. Yes, it would be best for the guy to proactively regulate his own fertility, but if a couple has an understanding that she will handle the birth control (while he does the dishes, does the yardwork, whatever), then that's not so bad. This letter is a case of someone deliberately deceiving another person whom she has convinced to trust her.
So yes, guys randomly not using condoms is very stupid. There are situations in which it's not very stupid. This poor dude thinks/thought he was in one of them but isn't.
So yes, guys randomly not using condoms is very stupid. There are situations in which it's not very stupid. This poor dude thinks/thought he was in one of them but isn't.
45
@38: I was just struck by the immediate assumption of @3 and @7 that the letter must be a fake. As in, there can't possibly be women so intent on having a child that they would ignore decency and common sense and the possible fall-out on the child they want so badly. I happen to know one such woman. The sister-in-law in question is my wife's sister. Never met the father. The two of them had been fighting off and on prior to getting pregnant, presumably over her wanting a baby and his not wanting to have one, amongst other things. She was desperate and determined to have one because she felt time was running out for her. I'm not sure how she finally convinced him, but like I say he is rumored to be a bit of a push-over.
You're right, I am assuming to know my sister-in-law's motivations when in fact I don't. Perhaps she genuinely thought she would form a happy family with a man she'd been fighting with pretty steadily, whose character she didn't really respect, and to whom she gave the boot three weeks after finding out she was pregnant. I don't actually know how it went down, but it sure has a whiff of opportunism about it, speaking of whiffs. So I have serious doubts that his consent was actually informed consent. His fault is for not having warning bells and bailing on the situation.
This is just one story, yes; yes, I'm an anonymous internet poster. And to forestall: no, I never said men can't be manipulative assholes too. Or that all women are this way. Or that the majority of women are this way. I'm saying it's not inconceivable that this letter is real, because I'm acquainted with a real, actual woman with similar drive and desires, whose need for a child trumped everything and produced a train wreck that affected, amongst other people, the very child she wanted so badly.
More...
You're right, I am assuming to know my sister-in-law's motivations when in fact I don't. Perhaps she genuinely thought she would form a happy family with a man she'd been fighting with pretty steadily, whose character she didn't really respect, and to whom she gave the boot three weeks after finding out she was pregnant. I don't actually know how it went down, but it sure has a whiff of opportunism about it, speaking of whiffs. So I have serious doubts that his consent was actually informed consent. His fault is for not having warning bells and bailing on the situation.
This is just one story, yes; yes, I'm an anonymous internet poster. And to forestall: no, I never said men can't be manipulative assholes too. Or that all women are this way. Or that the majority of women are this way. I'm saying it's not inconceivable that this letter is real, because I'm acquainted with a real, actual woman with similar drive and desires, whose need for a child trumped everything and produced a train wreck that affected, amongst other people, the very child she wanted so badly.
47
Boring feminist/mra scripted responses aside if we pretend that this letter was true and current some real advice for this person would be that, unless you are well off, you may be forced to seek child care from the unwilling father in order to be eligible for many government services.
I doubt the writer would care much but just something the writer didn't think about.
I dated a girl in college who wanted to get pregnant and out of the army so she had an acquaintance knock her up with the promise that she'd never contact him about it. When later she needed government assistance the law mandated that she identify the father and attempt to take him to court for child support.
I doubt the writer would care much but just something the writer didn't think about.
I dated a girl in college who wanted to get pregnant and out of the army so she had an acquaintance knock her up with the promise that she'd never contact him about it. When later she needed government assistance the law mandated that she identify the father and attempt to take him to court for child support.
48
@37: "Look, spend some time talking to divorce lawyers. People of either gender can be utter, total, selfish monsters, and are with dismaying frequency and predictability."
To be fair, I'd say that divorce lawyers are operating with a pretty heavily skewed population sample. Kind of like how IT people gradually come to the conclusion that 95% of the world thinks you operate a computer by hitting it with a stick.
Not arguing with your point re: the gender balance of monstrous behavior, just trying to keep cynicism from taking over too completely.
To be fair, I'd say that divorce lawyers are operating with a pretty heavily skewed population sample. Kind of like how IT people gradually come to the conclusion that 95% of the world thinks you operate a computer by hitting it with a stick.
Not arguing with your point re: the gender balance of monstrous behavior, just trying to keep cynicism from taking over too completely.
49
@47: This.
One of the first cases I ever handled as a lawyer was exactly such a case: the ex-husband had been providing cash and in-kind child support for years without knowing that the wife was double-dipping on welfare. She, the welfare agency and the child support agency went after him on the basis that he'd never paid a dime, even to the point of the child support agency lying to the judge: they asserted that they'd never told him that it was okay, when in fact they (mistakenly) had. I had to subpoena their records to prove the three-sided lie.
Lesson of the day: both people and bureaucracies will lie their asses off if they think that they can find somebody else to pay their bills.
One of the first cases I ever handled as a lawyer was exactly such a case: the ex-husband had been providing cash and in-kind child support for years without knowing that the wife was double-dipping on welfare. She, the welfare agency and the child support agency went after him on the basis that he'd never paid a dime, even to the point of the child support agency lying to the judge: they asserted that they'd never told him that it was okay, when in fact they (mistakenly) had. I had to subpoena their records to prove the three-sided lie.
Lesson of the day: both people and bureaucracies will lie their asses off if they think that they can find somebody else to pay their bills.
50
Hard to believe it's not fake because the attitude of the writer is so breezy (check the reference to "kid," "brat" "knocked up"). Someone has a sick sense of humor.
52
@10: "When I wanted to have a baby, and my then-boyfriend didn't, several male friends told me to ditch birth control and not tell my then-bf. No female friends told me to do that. "
You're friends with some fucking horrible dudes. How the hell can you keep these people close?
You're friends with some fucking horrible dudes. How the hell can you keep these people close?
53
@47 and @49:
While I completely understand your positions, I still think that this LW is a male rights activist for several reasons. As one person mentioned, the language is too breezy (women who reallyreally want kids don't refer to them as "brats" for example). Another angle is that anyone sane (which is most people) will just give up on the guy and go find someone else to fuck them. It's just easier, especially if you're a 25 year old woman. And nearly any man who's had that kind of ultimatum would drop her like a hot rock before she had the chance to get pregnant from him - there's only so much crazy a man will put up with from a woman like this, even if she's totally hot and they're super-compatible.
While I completely understand your positions, I still think that this LW is a male rights activist for several reasons. As one person mentioned, the language is too breezy (women who reallyreally want kids don't refer to them as "brats" for example). Another angle is that anyone sane (which is most people) will just give up on the guy and go find someone else to fuck them. It's just easier, especially if you're a 25 year old woman. And nearly any man who's had that kind of ultimatum would drop her like a hot rock before she had the chance to get pregnant from him - there's only so much crazy a man will put up with from a woman like this, even if she's totally hot and they're super-compatible.
54
This Dan on hiatus has grown tiresome. It's like watching hockey from 3 years ago during a lockout. Can't we have a set of fill in sex columnists on a regular rotation? Masturbation Mondays with Betty Dodson? Tristan Taormino Tuesdays (the Triple T)? And I've run out of alliterations. But seriously, Sari Locker, Jennifer Pritchert.. there are many options. And there has to be some men out there in the sex business.
55
@53 I was attempting to be neutral in the letter's validity and just try to address it as is without the gender politics.
It does smell fake to me but Dan's run it twice now and often he has more personal info on the writer than he allows in his column so who knows?
I wouldn't want to place bets. Haven't we all seen enough trash reality shows to understand that someone like this could easily exist in America?
For fun, if I had to speculate why she'd not just go fuck someone else, maybe she want's to have 'his' baby. He is an 'angel' after-all. Sure a young woman can almost always get fucked but she may also be picky about the genetics of the father.
It does smell fake to me but Dan's run it twice now and often he has more personal info on the writer than he allows in his column so who knows?
I wouldn't want to place bets. Haven't we all seen enough trash reality shows to understand that someone like this could easily exist in America?
For fun, if I had to speculate why she'd not just go fuck someone else, maybe she want's to have 'his' baby. He is an 'angel' after-all. Sure a young woman can almost always get fucked but she may also be picky about the genetics of the father.
56
#6 Holy shit! Men have no comparable interest to women on this issue. Regardless of what a major asshole the young woman in question is, the above fact does not change. And no, the other commenter does not make feminism look bad. People who say "you make that entire group look bad" are basically bigots pointing their fingers and blaming someone else for their bigotry. There are real bad people in this world who will abuse others to get what they want. That's what the mommy wannabe asshole is about. She probably steals if she wants something bad enough. It's as simple as that. That is if she is not some troll, which is probably the case.
57
@55 has it right. As much as I am reluctant to use evobio to explain psychology, the fact might well have been that this guy's genes were the best available to the LW at the time. Perhaps she examined her past and (projected) future relationships, determined that this was the best it was going to get, genetically, and made her decision.
Still incredibly scummy, both to the guy and the (eventual) kid, both of whom deserve better.
Side note, don't men know when their female partners are menstruating? Or when they take their pill every day, or switch out their Nuva Ring, or get a Depo shot? My guy has always been pretty involved/aware of that stuff. When I was on the pill, he always texted me at 4pm to remind me to take it, in case I'd forgotten (a few times, I did forget). When I got an IUD, he held my hand through the painful insertion procedure. He's been paying for half of it since we got together. To me, that is what "involved with birth control" looks like. I would have to work pretty hard to deceive him on this score.
Still incredibly scummy, both to the guy and the (eventual) kid, both of whom deserve better.
Side note, don't men know when their female partners are menstruating? Or when they take their pill every day, or switch out their Nuva Ring, or get a Depo shot? My guy has always been pretty involved/aware of that stuff. When I was on the pill, he always texted me at 4pm to remind me to take it, in case I'd forgotten (a few times, I did forget). When I got an IUD, he held my hand through the painful insertion procedure. He's been paying for half of it since we got together. To me, that is what "involved with birth control" looks like. I would have to work pretty hard to deceive him on this score.
58
Whoa, that's not what being involved with birth control looks like @57. Sure, definitely holding your hand during surgery and sure, maybe helping to pay for it. Texting you everyday to remind you about your pill? I reminded my girlfriend occasionally when I knew she had forgotten and paid some attention to her refilling her prescription, but phones have alarms on them for that sort of thing. If he was texting you daily then one or both of you have a weird personality quirk.
59
@57 your guy sounds controlling. I don't like the "it'd be hard work to deceive him" vibe. If he's so into controlling body fertility, how come he won't control his own, just yours ?
@20 22 - I agree. Nowadays, a man "involved with birth control", if he's absolutely certain he doesn't want a child, is a man who puts a condom on everytime, from start to end. There's no other choice.
If a man doesn't put a condom on and ends up with a pregnant partner, he's responsible for the child. No matter what the partner did, no matter what he said she did.
It's damn too easy to impregnate a girl and then complain that "she did it on purpose". And that's not feminist propaganda - in my own family, a near-30 guy ran to his mother and complained that "his artful 20-y-o girlfriend had trapped him" through getting pregnant. And the stupid mother was mad at the girl.
@20 22 - I agree. Nowadays, a man "involved with birth control", if he's absolutely certain he doesn't want a child, is a man who puts a condom on everytime, from start to end. There's no other choice.
If a man doesn't put a condom on and ends up with a pregnant partner, he's responsible for the child. No matter what the partner did, no matter what he said she did.
It's damn too easy to impregnate a girl and then complain that "she did it on purpose". And that's not feminist propaganda - in my own family, a near-30 guy ran to his mother and complained that "his artful 20-y-o girlfriend had trapped him" through getting pregnant. And the stupid mother was mad at the girl.
60
@55
These two commenters have a point. I'd point to the actor Bridget Moynahan who became pregnant as her LTR relationship with the quarterback Tom Brady was bottoming out. Assuming arguendo that she chose to become pregnant it is, from a strictly rational standpoint, difficult to question her reasoning. If you are going to have a child, why not choose a fabulously wealthy, handsome, famous and accomplished man that you're in love with? There's no guarantee -- for anybody -- that you're going to ever find a partner that's anywhere comparable, so why not?
Not every woman will date Tom Brady, but other women may make similar decisions about the men and options in their lives. Last time I checked, humans are often frighteningly rational actors about their self-interest.
For fun, if I had to speculate why she'd not just go fuck someone else, maybe she want's to have 'his' baby. He is an 'angel' after-all. Sure a young woman can almost always get fucked but she may also be picky about the genetics of the father.@57
@55 has it right. As much as I am reluctant to use evobio to explain psychology, the fact might well have been that this guy's genes were the best available to the LW at the time. Perhaps she examined her past and (projected) future relationships, determined that this was the best it was going to get, genetically, and made her decision.
These two commenters have a point. I'd point to the actor Bridget Moynahan who became pregnant as her LTR relationship with the quarterback Tom Brady was bottoming out. Assuming arguendo that she chose to become pregnant it is, from a strictly rational standpoint, difficult to question her reasoning. If you are going to have a child, why not choose a fabulously wealthy, handsome, famous and accomplished man that you're in love with? There's no guarantee -- for anybody -- that you're going to ever find a partner that's anywhere comparable, so why not?
Not every woman will date Tom Brady, but other women may make similar decisions about the men and options in their lives. Last time I checked, humans are often frighteningly rational actors about their self-interest.
61
@46: you left out the part where you apologize for misconstruing his post, acting like a douchebag, and being too dense to see what everyone else could - that he was talking about his spouse's sister.
62
I also call fake. Women tricking men to get pregnant is mostly an MRA fantasy. On the other hand, the stats are significantly high for manipulation of birth control by a male partner.
65
@47(debug), @49(seeker), this really makes me think that all the overblown rhetoric from both MRA's and radfems about child support is not "what is really going on" in child support legislation, but, more simply (and more believably) a desire by all parts concerned to have someone else pay the bill. It seems that, even if bureaucracies, unlike corporations, aren't people, they certainly behave as if they were.
66
Assuming this letter is legit, while her actions would be unconscionable, on the other hand, he should be using birth protection himself. To me it seems awfully trusting and stupid to leave your right to choose in someone else's hands. Especially to leave them in the hands of someone who clearly has different ideas about pregnancy right now.
67
@ 62,
It's called 'Coercive Reproduction'. Male abusers bully (or more often rape) a partner into pregnancy so that they can control them through the kid. Think of all the abusive men who strike back at ex-wives by murdering their kids.
http://www.healthnewsdigest.com/news/Wom…
http://www.thehotline.org/2011/02/1-in-4…
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2…
http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/node/14181
It's called 'Coercive Reproduction'. Male abusers bully (or more often rape) a partner into pregnancy so that they can control them through the kid. Think of all the abusive men who strike back at ex-wives by murdering their kids.
http://www.healthnewsdigest.com/news/Wom…
http://www.thehotline.org/2011/02/1-in-4…
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2…
http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/node/14181
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