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News & ArtsTuesday, September 11, 2012
Savage Love SL Letter of the Day: Wedded Miss
Posted by Dan Savage on Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 10:20 AM
I'm on hiatus while working on a manuscript for a new book. In the meantime, please enjoy these classic Savage Love letters pulled from previous columns. I will be back October 1st, when the book is finished. —Dan
Originally published June 4, 2009:
My boyfriend and I have been together eight months. We love each other, and I see us spending our lives together. At least I did, until something he said a few days ago.
Long story short, for the last five months he's brought up marriage. Then a few days ago he informed me that he doesn't want a wedding. When I offered a small ceremony for immediate family and friends, he balked and said he's not even interested in a courthouse wedding. I asked if everything he'd said before was empty talk, and he said yes. He won't give me any better explanation. Oh, and this was two days after we decided I'd be moving in with him, and he still wants me to live with him even after dropping this bomb! Everyone I've talked to, including my therapist, said the equivalent of WTF?!?
Dan, can you decipher this male-ese for me?
Lady In A Relationship
My response after the jump...
You were discussing marriage at three months?
The fact that he would bring up marriage so early, and the fact that you didn't laugh in his face, disqualifies you both from obtaining a marriage license. (Okay, it doesn't—but it should.) Three months—eight months, sixteen months—is way too soon to be discussing marriage. Sure, you can allow yourself to be swept away by new love, you can crush out on each other, you can sheepishly admit that you've allowed yourself to daydream about marriage—so long as that admission is immediately followed by this statement: "But I realize it's way too soon to even think about it seriously..." But you absolutely, positively should NOT be making plans to marry, small ceremonies or large, courthouse or St. Paul's Cathedral, at eight fucking months; nor should you attempt to hold him—or anyone else—to a premature "commitment" to wed.
Your boyfriend doesn't have a bad case of "male-ese," LIAR, he has a good case of came-to-his-senses-ese. If you're lucky, the strain is contagious, perhaps sexually transmitted, and you'll soon be showing symptoms yourself.
And a bit of bonus advice: Get a therapist who doesn't believe that cashing your checks obligates him to tell you whatever idiot thing you want to hear.
1
Aged 16 years, and just a few months into our relationship, my high school sweetheart and I had decided we were going to get married (eventually). And marry we did--after seven years together. We've now been together over 13 years. So I'd say talking about it early isn't necessarily bad, but making concrete plans that early would be premature.
2
He doesn't want to marry you.
He is willing to fuck you,
but he doesn't want to marry you.
.
Does this clear it up for you?
He is willing to fuck you,
but he doesn't want to marry you.
.
Does this clear it up for you?
3
@1 "I'd say talking about it early isn't necessarily bad"
Let me offer you my sincere congratulations and well wishes for your future together; followed closely by a prompt dismissal peppered with expletives.
Your anecdote is heart-warming, and is the sort of bullshit that really needs to be stomped down hard, because in the vast majority of cases, young love needs to run its course and _end_; the overly ascribed concept of THE ONE does shit loads of harm. Most young people need to be and deserve to be dumped; this is stunting their growth and keeping them in dangerous relationships.
The simple truth is that if Romeo and Juliette had lived, they would have eventually broke up and most likely had period-adjusted good marriages and fond memories.
Let me offer you my sincere congratulations and well wishes for your future together; followed closely by a prompt dismissal peppered with expletives.
Your anecdote is heart-warming, and is the sort of bullshit that really needs to be stomped down hard, because in the vast majority of cases, young love needs to run its course and _end_; the overly ascribed concept of THE ONE does shit loads of harm. Most young people need to be and deserve to be dumped; this is stunting their growth and keeping them in dangerous relationships.
The simple truth is that if Romeo and Juliette had lived, they would have eventually broke up and most likely had period-adjusted good marriages and fond memories.
4
Dan's so fucking right, LIAR. You don't even know your boyfriend at 8 months. Marriage shouldn't be the goal; a committed, honest, respectful, enjoyable relationship should be the goal. And it takes a lot of fucking time to realize that goal and still want it every fucking day. Enjoy that time. Learn what make you and him both tick. And, ya know what, if some day comes that you two want to legally bind yourselves to each other, get married.
5
#3 if there's anything that needs to get stomped down hard it's your over-inflated idea that yours is the one and only way for marital bliss. Speak to what you know and leave what you don't to the rest of us.
Tell it like it is #1.
Tell it like it is #1.
6
If he said, as Dan suggested, "it's way too soon to even think about it seriously, but I love you and hope we can build a life together," that would be one thing. But he's shutting down communication ("He won't give me any better explanation"). I would not move in with him. Get a housemate if you need to share expenses, and keep your options open.
7
I remember this letter. In fact, I've remembered a few of these (ok most of them, gosh, I'm a loser) during Dan's hiatus. It'd be really cool if any of the LW's would come back on to update us as to how their situations played out.
8
Yo Danny!
Did you see that people are boycotting your hero Hug-the-Prez-Pizza-Man?
so cool....
Everyone should refuse to spend their money at businesses that don't agree with them. eh?
Did you see that people are boycotting your hero Hug-the-Prez-Pizza-Man?
so cool....
Everyone should refuse to spend their money at businesses that don't agree with them. eh?
9
Maybe I'm missing something here.
According to the letter writer it was the boyfriend who brought up marriage and was talking about it for five out of the eight months of their relationship. And now that LIAR is excited about the idea he is backing out.
It seems everyone is acting like LIAR is the one who initiated the marriage talk, but her letter clearly states otherwise.
I agree that LIAR should not have been entertaining the idea of marriage so soon, but when you look at what she is actually saying the boyfriend is really a manipulative jerk.
After three months HE started talking about marriage. After another five months it seems that it had been settled that they would get married, as bad an idea as that is. Now that she is starting to talk about plans he is saying he doesn't want to get married and he admitted that it was all just "empty talk", two days after he has successfully manipulated her into agreeing to move in.
LIAR needs to get her head examined for entertaining the notion of marriage too soon, but boyfriend is a manipulative liar.
They are both fucked up, but boyfriend is clearly in the wrong here.
According to the letter writer it was the boyfriend who brought up marriage and was talking about it for five out of the eight months of their relationship. And now that LIAR is excited about the idea he is backing out.
It seems everyone is acting like LIAR is the one who initiated the marriage talk, but her letter clearly states otherwise.
I agree that LIAR should not have been entertaining the idea of marriage so soon, but when you look at what she is actually saying the boyfriend is really a manipulative jerk.
After three months HE started talking about marriage. After another five months it seems that it had been settled that they would get married, as bad an idea as that is. Now that she is starting to talk about plans he is saying he doesn't want to get married and he admitted that it was all just "empty talk", two days after he has successfully manipulated her into agreeing to move in.
LIAR needs to get her head examined for entertaining the notion of marriage too soon, but boyfriend is a manipulative liar.
They are both fucked up, but boyfriend is clearly in the wrong here.
10
Manipulative little prick- her BF. DTMFA- Find yourself a new living situation LIAR.
Dan's right, they're both way too immature to be getting married, but those crazy straights run out and do it all the time. They don't even know what they're getting into, but they do it anyway, because it's just that easy....sigh.
Dan's right, they're both way too immature to be getting married, but those crazy straights run out and do it all the time. They don't even know what they're getting into, but they do it anyway, because it's just that easy....sigh.
11
@1: The thing is, you both had the sense to realize that 16 was too young to get married, you know? That would be why you waited until you were both out of college? I think that's what Dan's point is when he says "you can sheepishly admit that you've allowed yourself to daydream about marriage—so long as that admission is immediately followed by this statement: 'But I realize it's way too soon to even think about it seriously...'" Even if you decided you were going to get married when you were 16 and only a few months in, what you decided to do was get married... eventually. Concrete plans for marriage when you're only a few months in are nuckinfuts.
One has to be careful with those teenage relationships, however. I think a lot of kids stay in them for longer than they would otherwise because they're afraid they can't get anyone better.
One has to be careful with those teenage relationships, however. I think a lot of kids stay in them for longer than they would otherwise because they're afraid they can't get anyone better.
12
Interesting response, considering the recent SLLOTD where Dan told a man he should have accepted a marriage proposal from his boyfriend of 12 months.
Anyway, 8 months is too soon. At best, the guy came to his senses and decided to drop the marriage talk. At worst, he used commitment-talk at the start of the relationship to reel the LW in. Since this is from '09, I wonder how it all shook out.
Anyway, 8 months is too soon. At best, the guy came to his senses and decided to drop the marriage talk. At worst, he used commitment-talk at the start of the relationship to reel the LW in. Since this is from '09, I wonder how it all shook out.
13
I'm gonna totally back Dan on this. At 4 months of dating, I got engaged. I figured, 1. I needed to get laid BADLY and I had to get married to do it and 2. meh, all marriages I had ever read about seemed doomed to lovelessness and misery, so what difference did it make if my fiance wasn't the best there is?
7 years and more than $15K on lawyers and I'm still not divorced. Getting married is easy. Getting divorced is a real bitch. Wish it was the other way around.
7 years and more than $15K on lawyers and I'm still not divorced. Getting married is easy. Getting divorced is a real bitch. Wish it was the other way around.
14
@8: Did you have a particular point? You can already not spend your money at gay-friendly businesses. Stop using computers and the internet.
15
Assuming LIAR and her boyfriend are not both 17, 3 months is early but not insane to discuss marriage. It's the point at which most people have gotten through the early crush and have a sense of how serious this thing between them could be. I can think offhand of a couple of couples who got unofficially engaged on the second date (they didn't share this info with friends and family until much later) and are still married decades later. They both knew early, they discussed it, they made it official after a year or so, they married after being together a couple of years.
For a ballpark rule I'd say you're both at least 19 (i.e. at least one year of adulthood) and have been together at least 1 year (through ups and downs) and have seen each other with at least 1 bad cold (drowning in self pity). There are people who went faster and made it work. There are people who went slower, even glacially slow, and still managed to get divorced. There comes a point where time isn't about getting to really really really really know each other and all possibilities that could come up in decades together.
LW's bf started tossing the idea around. Any uncertainty LW had about his intentions, about moving in together.... Hey! He talks about marriage! Of course he's serious about a future together! He either deliberately misled her trying to nail down help with housework and rent, or he is the sort of unreliable airhead who pops off with romantic stuff he won't be willing to back up. (In future years this will be dreamy talk of a vacation or move or pet or child you really want, which hit a hard wall when it comes time to actually plan them.)
If this letter had been written this week, I'd tell her not to move in, and to have a serious talk about the future each of them saw. If he is okay with marriage someday probably to her, I'd still hesitate: dangling her dreams just above her nose is really cruel.
More...
For a ballpark rule I'd say you're both at least 19 (i.e. at least one year of adulthood) and have been together at least 1 year (through ups and downs) and have seen each other with at least 1 bad cold (drowning in self pity). There are people who went faster and made it work. There are people who went slower, even glacially slow, and still managed to get divorced. There comes a point where time isn't about getting to really really really really know each other and all possibilities that could come up in decades together.
LW's bf started tossing the idea around. Any uncertainty LW had about his intentions, about moving in together.... Hey! He talks about marriage! Of course he's serious about a future together! He either deliberately misled her trying to nail down help with housework and rent, or he is the sort of unreliable airhead who pops off with romantic stuff he won't be willing to back up. (In future years this will be dreamy talk of a vacation or move or pet or child you really want, which hit a hard wall when it comes time to actually plan them.)
If this letter had been written this week, I'd tell her not to move in, and to have a serious talk about the future each of them saw. If he is okay with marriage someday probably to her, I'd still hesitate: dangling her dreams just above her nose is really cruel.
16
@3: What needs to be stomped out is pretending that one anecdote, presented as such, was meant to be prescriptive for all teen romances everywhere always. Most 16 year olds' dating relationships end. Same with 36 year olds', and 66 year olds', and everyone else who dates. They end. That statistically most relationships end does not lead to the conclusion that we should mercy kill all of them because, hey, statistically speaking you'll move on so let's get it out of the way.
Some high school sweethearts make it work. Some people in their 40s come to "Oh, so this is the person that is worth upending my life to make it work together. Yeah. Well I would be an idiot to pretend things are pleasant and hey, maybe in 5 years we could talk about taking things to the next level."
Some high school sweethearts make it work. Some people in their 40s come to "Oh, so this is the person that is worth upending my life to make it work together. Yeah. Well I would be an idiot to pretend things are pleasant and hey, maybe in 5 years we could talk about taking things to the next level."
17
Um, and DON'T MOVE IN WITH THIS MAN? LIAR and her lying boyfriend clearly don't want the same things.
18
Three months is pretty early, but I wouldn't say that a couple NEVER should discuss marriage until a certain point. That doesn't seem to be the issue for this couple. The issue seems to be that the LW's boyfriend was dishonest about his intentions from the start ("I asked if everything he'd said before was empty talk, and he said yes"), then finally came clean about it right after they decided to move in together, and then refused to discuss it.
It doesn't matter if they had been dating for three months or three years before they started discussing marriage; the boyfriend is in the wrong. If he wanted a woman to live with but not marry, that's perfectly fine. There are a lot of people who are very happy with that arrangement. But needs to be open and upfront about what he wants, not trick his girlfriend into accepting a situation that she doesn't want.
I hope she ended up deciding not to move in with him!
It doesn't matter if they had been dating for three months or three years before they started discussing marriage; the boyfriend is in the wrong. If he wanted a woman to live with but not marry, that's perfectly fine. There are a lot of people who are very happy with that arrangement. But needs to be open and upfront about what he wants, not trick his girlfriend into accepting a situation that she doesn't want.
I hope she ended up deciding not to move in with him!
19
I don't think there's anything wrong with talking about marriage early. If you're a person interested in a long term commitment (at some point, with someone) and your partner isn't, that's a problem. Better it's addressed sooner rather than later.
The boyfriend either lied initially, or he's now realizing the seriousness of the commitment he's just signed on to (moving in with, and eventually marriage to LIAR) and is now having second thoughts. This couple needs to have a serious talk and they don't want the same things out of this relationship, it needs to end. Period.
The boyfriend either lied initially, or he's now realizing the seriousness of the commitment he's just signed on to (moving in with, and eventually marriage to LIAR) and is now having second thoughts. This couple needs to have a serious talk and they don't want the same things out of this relationship, it needs to end. Period.
20
Yeah, mi amore and I both knew after about a week that this was The One, but we didn't get married until after I'd graduated college and we'd been together 3.5 years.
This guy, however, is a douchebag. Not for coming to his senses, but for rushing in and then pulling out the way he did. DTMFA.
This guy, however, is a douchebag. Not for coming to his senses, but for rushing in and then pulling out the way he did. DTMFA.
21
LIAR's boyfriend initially talked up marriage, then later said it was empty talk. Why are people assuming the first part was the lie? What if it was genuine, head-over-heels-rationality-out-the-window talk, and NOW he's come to his senses, and is saying whatever he thinks will extricate him from what he now realizes was a subject that was far too soon?
It's seems downright likely that her taking things from the general "We should totally get married and have 2.5 kids a dog and white picket fence" to the specific "Are you free Thursday, and do you have a tux?" suddenly snapped him back to reality, and while he still wants to be with this woman, and maybe marry at some future date, now is WAY too soon?
It's seems downright likely that her taking things from the general "We should totally get married and have 2.5 kids a dog and white picket fence" to the specific "Are you free Thursday, and do you have a tux?" suddenly snapped him back to reality, and while he still wants to be with this woman, and maybe marry at some future date, now is WAY too soon?
22
The boyfriend talked about marriage until he looked like he could get cohabitation, and then kyboshed marriage talk.
The fact that marital discussions that early are, at best, premature doesn't make him any less of a colossal dick. I think his marriage talk was a good old fashioned asshole's bait and switch.
The fact that marital discussions that early are, at best, premature doesn't make him any less of a colossal dick. I think his marriage talk was a good old fashioned asshole's bait and switch.
23
@21: Because he could've just explained that. He could've said, "I do want to marry you some day, but I've realized that I started talking about it way too early and I'd like to wait until we've been together longer." Saying that it was actually just "empty talk" is a dick move.
24
My husband and I got engaged after about five weeks and spending only two weekends together. As I explained to my mom, when you know, you know. You know? Not that I would recommend it. But 9 years and two kIds later we are still hanging in there... Of course we were late 20s when we met. Still...
25
@5 My comment #3 was not about "marital bliss" in the slightest.
@16 Yes, some high school sweethearts make it work, and I am happy for them and wish them the best. My point was that in so far as they buttress a commonly held and harmful to young people, "happily ever after" mentality, these anecdotes are problematic. In short, I have seen too many (usually young) people who thought that every time someone triggered their biology, that fate had brought them the one true love of their lives and then proceeded to hold on to that dream through more shit than anyone rightly should.
@1 On a second reading, I should have chosen a better handle; I merely meant that I am older and wiser (and married longer) than I had been previously. It looks like I was talking about you in a way I did not intend in addition to the one I did.
@16 Yes, some high school sweethearts make it work, and I am happy for them and wish them the best. My point was that in so far as they buttress a commonly held and harmful to young people, "happily ever after" mentality, these anecdotes are problematic. In short, I have seen too many (usually young) people who thought that every time someone triggered their biology, that fate had brought them the one true love of their lives and then proceeded to hold on to that dream through more shit than anyone rightly should.
@1 On a second reading, I should have chosen a better handle; I merely meant that I am older and wiser (and married longer) than I had been previously. It looks like I was talking about you in a way I did not intend in addition to the one I did.
26
We brought up marriage at the 3 month mark--and then waited a year to get engaged and another 2 years to marry, and have been married for over 10 years now. I have to wonder if the boyfriend meant that he thought the relationship might move to marriage and then she scared him off by immediately jumping to wedding plans.
27
I agree with Dan. My parents got married after 8 months. I think it was a terrible idea and that my dad is lucky he found someone both so patient and so reluctant to consider divorce.
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