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News & ArtsFriday, August 10, 2012
Drugs Medical Marijuana Industry Keeps Up Bullshit Arguments to Oppose Legalization
Posted by Dominic Holden on Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 2:34 PM
The latest screed comes from Ezra Eickmeyer, a lobbyist for medical marijuana dispensaries, who claims that passing Initiative 502 to regulate and legalize marijuana would hurt patients and their industry. "Most access points would have to shut down," he warns on the pot blog Toke of the Town. Well, I suppose they're being honest about the industry's real concerns here: their own business. They also warn that the cost of medicine will go up, because cannabis sales would be taxed.
But like the industry's previous torrent of dishonest arguments, this is hooey.
I-502 doesn't change the medical marijuana laws on the books in Washington. All the rules for cannabis patients, care providers, doctors, medical pot cultivation, etc. will remain exactly the same as they are today if I-502 passes. Which is to say that the medical marijuana industry would continue to rest in a legal limbo, a gray area of the law that neither prescribes the right to run medical pot stores nor bans them. But it's illogical to suggest that legalizing pot for all adults would make pot more illegal for medical marijuana patients.
So the other crazy claims—like I-502 "Puts cannabis under the state liquor control board" or that prices will rise for patients up to 75 percent—don't really apply to folks with a doctor's note. Pot patients could keep going to dispensaries or grow their own, just as they do today. Eickmeyer and his cronies are apparently trying to scare patients and people sympathetic to patients. But the industry's concern here isn't patients. It's that a legal market for all adults will appeal to sick and non sick people alike, thereby cutting into the current medical pot industry's profits.
1
It's not so hard to understand.
if Marijuana is made legal for recreational use, people will grow their own. Right now, unless you have a special permit to grow the stuff, you can face some frightening amounts of jail time. But once you no longer need a permit, anyone who wants to will be able to plant some plants.
And marijuana is notoriously easy to grow. Yes, if you want the high-power stuff you might want grow-lights and CO2 tanks and a greenhouse and all that. But if you're satisfied with the low-end stuff, just grab a handfull of seeds and toss them in any roadside ditch. The way it rains out here, plants'll start popping up in no time.
What does that mean for the price of pot? Once supply outstrips demand, it means it'll be cheaper than most agricultural products. It also means the high quality stuff will have to compete with low-average quality pot, meaning the price even for the good stuff could drop to lower than the cost it would take to produce it.
As such, anyone currently making a living off of growing pot would be out of business.
And those guys would be the same guys operating the dispensaries.
if Marijuana is made legal for recreational use, people will grow their own. Right now, unless you have a special permit to grow the stuff, you can face some frightening amounts of jail time. But once you no longer need a permit, anyone who wants to will be able to plant some plants.
And marijuana is notoriously easy to grow. Yes, if you want the high-power stuff you might want grow-lights and CO2 tanks and a greenhouse and all that. But if you're satisfied with the low-end stuff, just grab a handfull of seeds and toss them in any roadside ditch. The way it rains out here, plants'll start popping up in no time.
What does that mean for the price of pot? Once supply outstrips demand, it means it'll be cheaper than most agricultural products. It also means the high quality stuff will have to compete with low-average quality pot, meaning the price even for the good stuff could drop to lower than the cost it would take to produce it.
As such, anyone currently making a living off of growing pot would be out of business.
And those guys would be the same guys operating the dispensaries.
2
I'm boycotting hempfest this year. Their "neutral" stance oon I-502 really? I thought the point of hempfest was to get this into the culture. They're giving up on DUI shit? Fucking blow me.
3
Eh, ain't exactly a surprise. I've know a few part-time weed dealers over the years, and there's a high greedy asshole ratio.
Also this is all somewhat academic until we get the feds to legalize marijuana. Or at least consistently deprioritize.
Also this is all somewhat academic until we get the feds to legalize marijuana. Or at least consistently deprioritize.
4
@3,
It's all about chipping away, one state at a time. Legalizing at the state level would be but a means to an end, not an end in itself.
The greedy asshole ratio would disappear once there's no profit in selling pot anymore.
It's all about chipping away, one state at a time. Legalizing at the state level would be but a means to an end, not an end in itself.
The greedy asshole ratio would disappear once there's no profit in selling pot anymore.
5
Follow the chain with me a moment...
-With liquor in the grocery stores, a crapload of liquor board-approved real estate just opened up.
-Places that will sell pot must meat LCB Guidelines.
-502 doesn't exempt current medical grow ops, who currently operate in a gray area of the law. Any current grow-op could easily be classified as a "Homegrow" by the LCB, which are not allowed under I-502. This technicality would sabatoge a lot of Medical Grows.
-WA becomes a legal place to establish subsidiaries of the Pharma companies that have already been prepping for legal weed.
...So why shouldn't Dispensaries be worried about staying in business again? Sounds like the deck is about to be stacked against them.
-With liquor in the grocery stores, a crapload of liquor board-approved real estate just opened up.
-Places that will sell pot must meat LCB Guidelines.
-502 doesn't exempt current medical grow ops, who currently operate in a gray area of the law. Any current grow-op could easily be classified as a "Homegrow" by the LCB, which are not allowed under I-502. This technicality would sabatoge a lot of Medical Grows.
-WA becomes a legal place to establish subsidiaries of the Pharma companies that have already been prepping for legal weed.
...So why shouldn't Dispensaries be worried about staying in business again? Sounds like the deck is about to be stacked against them.
6
Danny's favorite HomoRetailer continues its plunge....
JC Penney 2Q earnings disaster
By ANNE D'INNOCENZIO AP Retail Writer
The Associated PressNEW YORK (AP) —
"J.C. Penney Co. offered up grisly details Friday of a terrible second quarter.
The midpriced department store chain reported a bigger-than-expected loss and plummeting sales. Shoppers are still not buying into a bold new gay-friendly advertising strategy. Penney even withdrew its full-year profit guidance.
After the report, Moody's Investors Services downgraded Penney's rating deeper into junk-bond terrain.
The bleak performance marked the second-straight quarter of severe sales declines since Penney featured two homosexual men in a Fathers' Day advertisement. The report confirmed it's going to be a hard sell to shoppers who are used to traditional marriage."
JC Penney 2Q earnings disaster
By ANNE D'INNOCENZIO AP Retail Writer
The Associated PressNEW YORK (AP) —
"J.C. Penney Co. offered up grisly details Friday of a terrible second quarter.
The midpriced department store chain reported a bigger-than-expected loss and plummeting sales. Shoppers are still not buying into a bold new gay-friendly advertising strategy. Penney even withdrew its full-year profit guidance.
After the report, Moody's Investors Services downgraded Penney's rating deeper into junk-bond terrain.
The bleak performance marked the second-straight quarter of severe sales declines since Penney featured two homosexual men in a Fathers' Day advertisement. The report confirmed it's going to be a hard sell to shoppers who are used to traditional marriage."
7
@4, there will always be profit in selling pot. Only a small percentage of smokers will grow their own. Most will happily pay (a much lower price, no doubt) for the convenience of having reliably good quality pot packaged and ready to go.
8
@5) You say, "Any current grow-op could easily be classified as a 'Homegrow' by the LCB, which are not allowed under I-502."
But that's not true. Medical marijuana gardens would remain legal, under the state's Medical Use of Marijuana Act, as this post already explains.
But that's not true. Medical marijuana gardens would remain legal, under the state's Medical Use of Marijuana Act, as this post already explains.
9
@2, instead of forgoing the fun, you could join I-502's volunteers to spread the good info at Hempfest, as my email inbox keeps urging me to do....
Hello Hempfesters!Anybody interested in volunteering can call them at (206)633-2012.
It's August and you know what that means. Hempfest is around the corner, August 17-19. We need twenty volunteers for each day. Can you help us meet our goal by signing up for a shift?
Volunteer at Hempfest and we'll make sure you have a 502 shirt, snacks, and water. Shifts are either 2 or 4 hours long and start on even hours (10am, 12pm, 2pm, 4pm, or 6pm). The Hempfest schedule is below:
Friday August 17, 12pm--8pm
Saturday August 18, 10am--8pm
Sunday August 19, 10am--8pm
We will be holding several sessions of Hempfest Volunteer Orientation to make sure everyone is ready to register voters, as well as discuss the details of I-502. Sign up for a shift and I'll send along the information about the orientation sessions.
Hempfest is heavily attended and we need a big team. Sign up now! In the comment section, mention which Hempfest shift you prefer.
10
It's the money.
When it's normal, you only make typical retail profits, not obscene profits.
Which is why the gangs fear legalization so.
When it's normal, you only make typical retail profits, not obscene profits.
Which is why the gangs fear legalization so.
11
@1:
You sort of answer your own question. For one thing, given the current price of high-grade, why would anyone settle for less powerful home-grown, even if it is relatively inexpensive to grow? Take beer or ale as an object lesson: anyone can whip out a decent batch of homebrew for an initial investment of less than $100, and wind up with a couple of cases for their trouble. But, you don't see all that many people doing it - why? Because even if it's cheap it's still time and labor intensive, and it's just so much easier to go to the grocery store and grab a six-pack off the shelf, even if it costs more than twice as much as what you could make it for at home. Same thing is going to happen with pot: people will gladly pay a premium for the simple convenience of NOT having to go through the hassle of growing their own, and for 99% of smokers, they're going to get a much better quality product in exchange.
Hell, if people around here are willing to pay double or triple the cost of a fifth of booze in exchange for the convenience of purchasing it in a grocery store, why wouldn't they do the same with weed?
You sort of answer your own question. For one thing, given the current price of high-grade, why would anyone settle for less powerful home-grown, even if it is relatively inexpensive to grow? Take beer or ale as an object lesson: anyone can whip out a decent batch of homebrew for an initial investment of less than $100, and wind up with a couple of cases for their trouble. But, you don't see all that many people doing it - why? Because even if it's cheap it's still time and labor intensive, and it's just so much easier to go to the grocery store and grab a six-pack off the shelf, even if it costs more than twice as much as what you could make it for at home. Same thing is going to happen with pot: people will gladly pay a premium for the simple convenience of NOT having to go through the hassle of growing their own, and for 99% of smokers, they're going to get a much better quality product in exchange.
Hell, if people around here are willing to pay double or triple the cost of a fifth of booze in exchange for the convenience of purchasing it in a grocery store, why wouldn't they do the same with weed?
12
You know, I've always thought the biggest obstacle to legalizing weed is pot-heads. Not people who smoke pot, most of us are fine thank you, I mean people whose whole life and identity are based around their eight foot bongs. No one wants to be seen taking the side of witless societal drop-outs. Stoner opposition may be the best thing that could happen to this initiative.
14
@11
Homegown pot is not labor intensive. Unlike beer, it requires no special equipment. You merely take a handfull of seeds, make a small furrow in the ground with a stick, space them out a few inches apart, then cover them up with soil..
Then, wait for the rain to come.
This is not the same thing as homebrew beer is it? Your "initial investment" is the cost of one handful of seeds. Your special equipment? A twig you can snap off a tree. And the labor involved? Takes about half an hour.
Homegown pot is not labor intensive. Unlike beer, it requires no special equipment. You merely take a handfull of seeds, make a small furrow in the ground with a stick, space them out a few inches apart, then cover them up with soil..
Then, wait for the rain to come.
This is not the same thing as homebrew beer is it? Your "initial investment" is the cost of one handful of seeds. Your special equipment? A twig you can snap off a tree. And the labor involved? Takes about half an hour.
15
@14:
And the result? Something akin to the slightly better quality weed one might have purchased in the late 1970's. Besides which you miss the point that most urban dwellers don't have yards in which to throw down those seeds, which themselves aren't exactly lying around for just anyone to pick up. Plus, there's the whole business of the neighbors complaining (and calling your ass in to the FBI/ATF/DEA), the neighborhood kids ripping you off right around harvest time, or the stray raccoon getting wasted off your effort. And growing indoors presents it's own set of challenges: space, lighting, etc. So, while I have no doubt a few people will go the grow-your-own route - just like with home brewing - the vast majority are simply going to find that it's far less of a hassle to buy from already established growers.
And the result? Something akin to the slightly better quality weed one might have purchased in the late 1970's. Besides which you miss the point that most urban dwellers don't have yards in which to throw down those seeds, which themselves aren't exactly lying around for just anyone to pick up. Plus, there's the whole business of the neighbors complaining (and calling your ass in to the FBI/ATF/DEA), the neighborhood kids ripping you off right around harvest time, or the stray raccoon getting wasted off your effort. And growing indoors presents it's own set of challenges: space, lighting, etc. So, while I have no doubt a few people will go the grow-your-own route - just like with home brewing - the vast majority are simply going to find that it's far less of a hassle to buy from already established growers.
16
Does this law allow you to grow your own weed for recreational (i.e., non-medical) use if you are NOT a licensed manufacturer? if not, what is the penalty?
17
I would like to bring up the racial component to marijuana laws. The ONLY reason why cannabis is called marijuana in the US is because of RACISM. The word marijuana was used to demonize Mexican immigrants while demonizing a plant. The rhetoric of Yellow Journalism and Harry J. Anslinger demonized a culture while demonizing a plant that never killed anyone. Please read The New Jim Crow by Michelle Alexander and encourage your community leaders to do the same.
18
Not surprising Dominic would say this has to do with people being selfish.
Though it's also hypocritical and self referential.
It's well known that he does not drive. The DUI provisions won't effect him.
Didn't get involved with this issue until he switched from sharing facts and opinions to shameful name calling and insults.
The real issue that keeps getting buried is that without a doubt, some daily consumers and medical patients may have whole blood THC levels above 5 ng/ml at all times, even waking up sober the morning after a day of consumption.
Beyond this 18 - 20 year old legal adults who drive will especially be in danger if I-502 is passed.
Any amount of whole blood THC no matter how small, even left over from consumption a week prior is enough to get them a DUI.
All an unfair cop would have to do is start pulling over young people after certain types of gatherings.
Not fair and utterly ridiculous.
Colorado has a legalization measure that DOES NOT have a 'per se' DUI limit.
They already chucked out two 'per se' DUI measures, because the activists there know how unfair it is.
I-502 is bad law. We can do better.
Though it's also hypocritical and self referential.
It's well known that he does not drive. The DUI provisions won't effect him.
Didn't get involved with this issue until he switched from sharing facts and opinions to shameful name calling and insults.
The real issue that keeps getting buried is that without a doubt, some daily consumers and medical patients may have whole blood THC levels above 5 ng/ml at all times, even waking up sober the morning after a day of consumption.
Beyond this 18 - 20 year old legal adults who drive will especially be in danger if I-502 is passed.
Any amount of whole blood THC no matter how small, even left over from consumption a week prior is enough to get them a DUI.
All an unfair cop would have to do is start pulling over young people after certain types of gatherings.
Not fair and utterly ridiculous.
Colorado has a legalization measure that DOES NOT have a 'per se' DUI limit.
They already chucked out two 'per se' DUI measures, because the activists there know how unfair it is.
I-502 is bad law. We can do better.
20
@19 Convincing argument. Awesome presentation of facts.
Zero money being made. Just don't want to trade in the right for state official Cannabis in exchange for a law that will harm other rights, especially the right for a 20 year old to consume Cannabis and drive in the same week without any concern of a DUI.
Zero money being made. Just don't want to trade in the right for state official Cannabis in exchange for a law that will harm other rights, especially the right for a 20 year old to consume Cannabis and drive in the same week without any concern of a DUI.
21
@20 Activist - I'm sympathetic, but I'm not buying the DUI argument. This is not the end of the line for a legalization path, only a major salvo in an ongoing culture war. The problems you cite can be resolved, and will be as we move forward.
Further, although I drive a lot, as often as not when after dinner having consumed alcohol, I don't get pulled over for DUI. It has happened once in all my driving experience (late, checked but not drunk, sent on my way). Frankly, it looks to me like the DUI laws are pretty much not enforced to any practical effect. So that's not going to make up my mind about I-502.
Further, although I drive a lot, as often as not when after dinner having consumed alcohol, I don't get pulled over for DUI. It has happened once in all my driving experience (late, checked but not drunk, sent on my way). Frankly, it looks to me like the DUI laws are pretty much not enforced to any practical effect. So that's not going to make up my mind about I-502.
22
Dominic, I appreciate that we disagree on this initiative, but to say we are against legalization is simply a false statement and I think you know better. I have been a legalization advocate, both professionally (NORML lobbyist 2010) and as a volunteer (Sensible WA, Hempfest) for years. I support legalization without hesitation and have worked my ass off and put my political career on the line to support it. Many people from the medical cannabis world supported the first 2 initiatives that tried to get on the ballot because they were good policy. 502 gives little benefit but a whole list of problems. If the creators of 502 cared about having the medical community on board with their initiative, they would have asked us to help craft it, which we would have been thrilled to do.
Also, although nothing in RCW 69.51A would be changed by this initiative, provisions in the initiative would change life for patients, like the taxes and DUI provisions. If these sections simply had an exemption for medical cannabis patients, you would not be seeing much opposition from the medical community. Also, we were worried about 502 making it on the ballot as-is and offered to help fix at least the DUI provision during the 2012 legislative session so there would not be opposition, but the ACLU didn't really care much about it and the fix in our Senate Bill did not pass. Argue with us on the merits Dom, but you look really bad trying to frame the opposition to 502 as being anti-legalization when most people from our organization have tried to help legalization get passed in the Legislature and through initiative. We want good legalization policy or just straight appeal of prohibition in state law. It would not be bad for the "industry", it would just cause changes. However, we don't want faux legalization that creates whole new sets of legal threats to cannabis users. It's that simple.
Ezra Eickmeyer and some "cronies"
More...
Also, although nothing in RCW 69.51A would be changed by this initiative, provisions in the initiative would change life for patients, like the taxes and DUI provisions. If these sections simply had an exemption for medical cannabis patients, you would not be seeing much opposition from the medical community. Also, we were worried about 502 making it on the ballot as-is and offered to help fix at least the DUI provision during the 2012 legislative session so there would not be opposition, but the ACLU didn't really care much about it and the fix in our Senate Bill did not pass. Argue with us on the merits Dom, but you look really bad trying to frame the opposition to 502 as being anti-legalization when most people from our organization have tried to help legalization get passed in the Legislature and through initiative. We want good legalization policy or just straight appeal of prohibition in state law. It would not be bad for the "industry", it would just cause changes. However, we don't want faux legalization that creates whole new sets of legal threats to cannabis users. It's that simple.
Ezra Eickmeyer and some "cronies"
23
Sad to say, but holden is lying. 502's proximity requirements would make it impossible to site ANY mmj access point or state licensed pot shop in capitol hill, the u district, most of Ballard, phinney ridge and most of Aurora. Don't take my word for it. Read the initiative and break out a map.
24
@21 Thanks for sharing your opinions in a reasonable manner. Wish this whole issue could be discussed with this kind of rationality.
We will continue to disagree, but at least I can respect your opinion because you have not reduced things to the vitriolic insults that has left a really awful impression of some of the people active in this debate.
My concern is that by authorizing I-502, we would be telling the U.S. justice system that we believe that a 5 ng/ml is fair and acceptable for the law books.
Unfortunately the majority of people citing it do not really understand the ramifications or the science behind it. Further more there is evidence to suggest that it isn't a fair number. The aspect for people under 21 is ridiculous. This is why Colorado has ditched it. Some of us who have nothing to financially gain from this issue will continue to see things this way.
Also this is all new territory. Since Cannabis has never been legalized we don't know how certain anti-cannabis LEO's might react to this situation. Would some of them increase DUI's to make up for lost revenues arresting people for minor possession? Anything is possible and we wouldn't know until it might be too late. And reminder a DUI is worse than possession. This is being said from experience.
Let's continue to share our opinions. Thanks again for the reasonable discourse, this shouldn't be about shaming people into taking sides or talking shit. This issue should be about people making up their own minds for themselves. It's one of the messages Cannabis culture has traditionally helped to foster.
We will continue to disagree, but at least I can respect your opinion because you have not reduced things to the vitriolic insults that has left a really awful impression of some of the people active in this debate.
My concern is that by authorizing I-502, we would be telling the U.S. justice system that we believe that a 5 ng/ml is fair and acceptable for the law books.
Unfortunately the majority of people citing it do not really understand the ramifications or the science behind it. Further more there is evidence to suggest that it isn't a fair number. The aspect for people under 21 is ridiculous. This is why Colorado has ditched it. Some of us who have nothing to financially gain from this issue will continue to see things this way.
Also this is all new territory. Since Cannabis has never been legalized we don't know how certain anti-cannabis LEO's might react to this situation. Would some of them increase DUI's to make up for lost revenues arresting people for minor possession? Anything is possible and we wouldn't know until it might be too late. And reminder a DUI is worse than possession. This is being said from experience.
Let's continue to share our opinions. Thanks again for the reasonable discourse, this shouldn't be about shaming people into taking sides or talking shit. This issue should be about people making up their own minds for themselves. It's one of the messages Cannabis culture has traditionally helped to foster.
25
Ezra - time after time I have been lied to by opponents of 502. If you want to be taken seriously as activists you need to stop lying. Stop trying to frighten patients. STOP LYING.
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