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News & ArtsMonday, August 6, 2012
2012 President Obama Signs Law Targeting Westboro Baptist Church Protests at Military Funerals
Posted by Paul Constant on Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 5:10 PM
The Huffington Post says that President Obama today signed an order making Westboro Baptist Church's protest of military funerals illegal.
President Barack Obama signed the Honoring America’s Veterans and Caring for Camp Lejeune Families Act of 2012 into law on Monday, providing a wide-ranging package of benefits to military personnel and enacting new restrictions on protests of service member funerals...Under the new legislation, protests must be held at least 300 feet from military funerals and are prohibited two hours before or after a service. The law counters a 2011 Supreme Court ruling, which found that displays such as Westboro's were protected under the First Amendment.
This is tricky business. On the one hand, Westboro Baptist Church is a collection of maybe the worst human beings in America, a terrible band of meatspace trolls. On the other hand, this could be perceived as a serious attack on freedom of speech. What do you think?
1
The Westboro chumps are a problem, but they're not a problem that needed an executive order to fix.
2
Nobody sane is anything but annoyed by Westboro, but how does a presidential order counter a Supreme Court ruling that their odious acts are protected by the First Amendment? Is this meant as fodder for the Supremes to rule on down the road?
3
Freedom as we know it here in America means mean people can say mean things. No one is physically hurt, but the super sensitive have their feelings hurt.
4
It's not an executive order. It's a bill passed by Congress. The law will be appealed ultimately to the Supreme Court, and, if they follow precedent (not a sure bet), be struck down. As it should be.
6
Whether it passes Constitutional muster depends on how narrowly it's tailored. The USSC may agree that 300' and two hours on either side may leave enough space and time for a protest. I don't agree--I don't like these clowns anymore than the next person--but I think this impinges on freedom of speech a little too much. They might have had a better shot at 500 feet and one hour, but hey, I'm no lawyer.
7
This allows more freedom than the "Free Speech Zones" the RNC used to fence in protesters during conventions. They still have the right to protest, but within a specified area.
9
I'll bet that nobody in the room recognized the irony of restricting free speech in order to better honor fallen soldiers.
10
Slippery slope? Are you people serious?
It is an institution they are banning protest from and that institution is a military servicemans funeral. You people actually think they are just going to star banning protests because of this?
I say that any of those parents who takes their kid protesting with signs that say 'god hates fags' should be taken away by social services so they aren't brainwashed.
Next time I see their protest I'm going to go and wave a sign that says 'God Loves Fags' and just stand with them.
It is an institution they are banning protest from and that institution is a military servicemans funeral. You people actually think they are just going to star banning protests because of this?
I say that any of those parents who takes their kid protesting with signs that say 'god hates fags' should be taken away by social services so they aren't brainwashed.
Next time I see their protest I'm going to go and wave a sign that says 'God Loves Fags' and just stand with them.
11
@10: slippery slope, no. Violation of the 1st amendment in this specific instance, yes. Waste of time passing the bill, waste of time for the courts to eventually strike it down.
12
If Westboro went to these things armed with assault rifles, Congress wouldn't have a problem with that.
13
It would be easier if city and/or county prohibitions against protesting funerals were passed instead. At the very least, it'd tie up Westboro's lawyers for many more years as they fought from the basement up.
What I wonder though... can't people put some super loud speakers and spotlights and stuff targeted at the westboro people's place? Buy the surrounding property and just blast noise and light 24 hours a day at them. Is this not realistic?
What I wonder though... can't people put some super loud speakers and spotlights and stuff targeted at the westboro people's place? Buy the surrounding property and just blast noise and light 24 hours a day at them. Is this not realistic?
15
Constant - huge reading comprehension FAIL.
This is no executive order. This is congressional LEGISLATION. As in House of Representatives bill #1627. Designed, debated and voted upon by our Congress.
http://veterans.house.gov/hr1627/
Take the poll down. It's pretty irrelevant as is.
This is no executive order. This is congressional LEGISLATION. As in House of Representatives bill #1627. Designed, debated and voted upon by our Congress.
http://veterans.house.gov/hr1627/
Take the poll down. It's pretty irrelevant as is.
16
Having grown up on military bases, I am used to restrictions being placed on civilian access to military personnel, facilities, etc. Perhaps a better way to handle this would be to allow greiving families to hold the funeral on a military base. Maybe this is already an option granted to these soldiers. I realize, however, that many funerals are held in hometowns far away from military bases. Just one possible suggestion/alternative.
17
We, like a number of other cities, have buffer zone legislation that forbids any protesting within a certain number of feet of our women's clinics. Time, place, and manner are long-established limitations on free speech.
Having said that, I don't think this is the way to go with WBC. They have to see that they are not intimidating or convincing anyone, and people showing up to shield mourners is a perfect way to do that.
Having said that, I don't think this is the way to go with WBC. They have to see that they are not intimidating or convincing anyone, and people showing up to shield mourners is a perfect way to do that.
18
@4, et al., thanks for the correction that it's not an order at all. I read the link and everything, but still I went with the term the Slog poster opened with anyway. Doy.
Seeing that it's a bill he was presented, I suppose especially in an election year this is the sort of thing few incumbents would dare utter a peep against.
Seeing that it's a bill he was presented, I suppose especially in an election year this is the sort of thing few incumbents would dare utter a peep against.
20
This is idiotic grandstanding masquerading as a solution to a non-problem. It won't even reach the supreme court: it'll get slapped down at the circuit level, and not even the Holder DoJ will be stupid enough to waste time and money on the appeal.
Fred Phelps Sr. is 83 with a documented history of binge eating, overexercising and methamphetamine abuse. Some time in the next few years, the withered organ he calls his heart will finally give out, and without their leader the WBC cult will fall apart. With any luck, they'll go the full Jonestown, but regardless: the problem will go away on its own, and does not require a patently unconstitutional law to deal with it.
Fred Phelps Sr. is 83 with a documented history of binge eating, overexercising and methamphetamine abuse. Some time in the next few years, the withered organ he calls his heart will finally give out, and without their leader the WBC cult will fall apart. With any luck, they'll go the full Jonestown, but regardless: the problem will go away on its own, and does not require a patently unconstitutional law to deal with it.
21
Canada has laws against hate speech. Germany has laws against hate speech. There are probably others. These countries are not ruthless dictatorships where all freedom of speech has been smothered. There is room for common sense regulation.
22
I see these assclowns far too often. They protested my daughters' children's choir concert, along with anything else in the arts ('cause, you know, choirs turn children gay), and all the local churches (especially the Unitarians and Metropolitan Community Church). WBC has to stay across the street from the church and not yell during services, so some time and distance requirements pass muster.
You won't bankrupt them with lawsuits; Fred Phelps and ALL of his kids have law degrees and act in their own defense. Topeka has been trying for decades to get rid of them, but the 1st amendment always wins, as it should.
The best defense is to laugh at them; they hate that. Outside KU graduation on a May Sunday morning, "Why aren't you people in Church?" was good for laughs and lots of sputtering. At one concert, the university stationed a bagpiper on the roof of the concert hall to play loudly beforehand. As for signs, the best I've seen is a guy standing next to Fred Phelps holding a big protest sign "I'm with stupid." "God Hates Phelps" and "God Hates Figs" (Mark 11:12-14) are popular, too. It's important to remember that the young Phelps are still impressionable human beings and to encourage them to grow out of this hatred; half of the kids have left and are alienated from the rest of the family.
You won't bankrupt them with lawsuits; Fred Phelps and ALL of his kids have law degrees and act in their own defense. Topeka has been trying for decades to get rid of them, but the 1st amendment always wins, as it should.
The best defense is to laugh at them; they hate that. Outside KU graduation on a May Sunday morning, "Why aren't you people in Church?" was good for laughs and lots of sputtering. At one concert, the university stationed a bagpiper on the roof of the concert hall to play loudly beforehand. As for signs, the best I've seen is a guy standing next to Fred Phelps holding a big protest sign "I'm with stupid." "God Hates Phelps" and "God Hates Figs" (Mark 11:12-14) are popular, too. It's important to remember that the young Phelps are still impressionable human beings and to encourage them to grow out of this hatred; half of the kids have left and are alienated from the rest of the family.
23
OK, what the fuck, Stranger staff? I mean what the fucking fuck?
In the last 12 or so hours:
- Eli Saunders: Doesn't know that Sikhs don't have mosques.
- Christopher Frizzelle: Can't figure out that one mosque was attacked twice, rather than two different ones.
- Charles Mudede: Expects the readers to figure out his blurry Iphone photo to determine what fucking point he's trying to make.
- Paul Constant: Can't tell the difference between the President signing a piece of legislation and issuing an Executive Order.
Is it fucking Amateur Day at The Stranger? Did y'all get some really good dope in this morning? Are y'all auditioning for gigs at Fox News? Have you just decided that, a'la Rush Limbaugh, you're "entertainers" rather than journalists?
Is this just a game to you? Or are we actually supposed to take you seriously?
In the last 12 or so hours:
- Eli Saunders: Doesn't know that Sikhs don't have mosques.
- Christopher Frizzelle: Can't figure out that one mosque was attacked twice, rather than two different ones.
- Charles Mudede: Expects the readers to figure out his blurry Iphone photo to determine what fucking point he's trying to make.
- Paul Constant: Can't tell the difference between the President signing a piece of legislation and issuing an Executive Order.
Is it fucking Amateur Day at The Stranger? Did y'all get some really good dope in this morning? Are y'all auditioning for gigs at Fox News? Have you just decided that, a'la Rush Limbaugh, you're "entertainers" rather than journalists?
Is this just a game to you? Or are we actually supposed to take you seriously?
24
Picketing the funerals of private citizens should be considered illegal harassment, not protected speech. We are talking about emotionally vulnerable people being mistreated and that's not ok.
25
I think it's an unconstitutional compression of our sacred First Amendment rights. Still, it doesn't make me a bad person if I'm glad knowing that fighting this will tax the WBC's limited financial resources and significantly affect their ability to fire their douchebag Angry Gods crap missiles.
28
Seriously though, how is picketing a funeral not considered cruel, unusual or fighting words? It's pure provocation.
29
I don't have a problem with making any funeral off-limits for protests, within a certain window of time and space. Even Dick Cheney, the worst person I can think of, has the right to a private, peaceful sendoff.
30
@21: Why do we need regulations on hate speech? Let the assholes speak out so everyone knows who they are.
Quoting John Stuart Mill who said it better than I ever could (parts 3 and 4 apply here):
Quoting John Stuart Mill who said it better than I ever could (parts 3 and 4 apply here):
First, if any opinion is compelled to silence, that opinion may, for aught we can certainly know, be true. To deny this is to assume our own infallibility. Secondly, though the silenced opinion be an error, it may, and very commonly does, contain a portion of truth; and since the general or prevailing opinion on any subject is rarely or never the whole truth, it is only by the collision of adverse opinions that the remainder of the truth has any chance of being supplied. Thirdly, even if the received opinion be not only true, but the whole truth; unless it is suffered to be, and actually is, vigorously and earnestly contested, it will, by most of those who receive it, be held in the manner of a prejudice, with little comprehension or feeling of its rational grounds. And not only this, but, fourthly, the meaning of the doctrine itself will be in danger of being lost, or enfeebled, and deprived of its vital effect on the character and conduct: the dogma becoming a mere formal profession, inefficacious for good, but cumbering the ground, and preventing the growth of any real and heartfelt conviction, from reason or personal experience.
31
The worst people in America? They're fucking horrible, but they haven't shot anyone yet. They're more of a distracting sideshow.
32
@30 - we already have regulation on speech. I can't shout fire in a theater, I can't send a letter to an elected official filled with death threats, I can't go on TV and tell people to go kill all the gays (though as long as I do pretty much the same thing without saying it TOO directly it's ok). Should I be allowed those freedoms as well?
I just don't think I can get on board with the idea that all speech, regardless of how vile, cruel, damaging or destructive should be unquestionably defended and allowed.
I just don't think I can get on board with the idea that all speech, regardless of how vile, cruel, damaging or destructive should be unquestionably defended and allowed.
33
@23, Yeah...well the Stranger has been going downhill the past few years. It's kinda funny watching it become more mainstream and at the same time become a joke.
34
@31, no, somehow without being physically violent at all, they really are some of the worst people in America. They inflict severe emotional trauma on people at their lowest, and they do so joyfully, and they believe it is for the glory of their god. They take pride and feel fulfilled by their extreme hatred, and see themselves as crusaders for what is right. They try to make a mockery of many honorable people's deaths, and turn what was a day of mourning for a family into a day of more distress and pain and they like it. They are attention whores who will protest a child's funeral if to cause a stir. It's deeply sick sadistic shit with no tangible rhyme or reason. They raise their kids to believe it and they hold signs alongside their disgusting parents. Furthermore, it's all in the name of the cause of denying gay people the right to even exist in any peaceable way.
Their actions may cause less damage (and obviously, someone who goes on a shooting rampage is worse in a physical death toll sense), but in their brains and hearts they are diseased and ruined and far worse than a "distracting sideshow" to the families they affect.
Their actions may cause less damage (and obviously, someone who goes on a shooting rampage is worse in a physical death toll sense), but in their brains and hearts they are diseased and ruined and far worse than a "distracting sideshow" to the families they affect.
35
This post is filled with SO much sadness. Ugh. Protesting funerals of fallen soldiers is tremendously vile.
Also: calm down correction trolls. If you can't resist Slog, start your own 100% accurate news website where you can enjoy being correct all the time.
Also: calm down correction trolls. If you can't resist Slog, start your own 100% accurate news website where you can enjoy being correct all the time.
36
I think it is a slippery slope. What's "military personnel"?
If an unpopular president dies during his term, or even worse, say a general or other officer who commits a war crimes later pardoned dies, should his funeral be off limits? It seems easy for military people who aren't ALSO public figures, but there's no wall between those two roles.
Should people have been allowed to protest the funeral of the guardsman who opened fire at Kent State? Oliver North's eventual funeral? So on, so forth.
Also, the way the media works, WBC barely needs to be present to successfully "protest" something.
If an unpopular president dies during his term, or even worse, say a general or other officer who commits a war crimes later pardoned dies, should his funeral be off limits? It seems easy for military people who aren't ALSO public figures, but there's no wall between those two roles.
Should people have been allowed to protest the funeral of the guardsman who opened fire at Kent State? Oliver North's eventual funeral? So on, so forth.
Also, the way the media works, WBC barely needs to be present to successfully "protest" something.
37
Free speech is one of our most important rights, but I don't think there is anything political in what Westboro does. Watch some documentaries like the Louie Theroux one, and you quickly realize it's a mean old man emotionally abusing the families of the dead. I don't see that as protected speech whatsoever.
38
I don't see this as a speech issue at all. WBC can "say" whatever the fuck they want, but physically disrupting a funeral (which they do, by their presence) is repugnant. It's not like a funeral is some kind of public event that everyone has a right to trample.
39
All that this bill accomplishes is that Obama and the congresscritters who voted for this get to pat themselves on the back in an election year for "doing something" about a group of people that are damn near universally considered vile, awful people.
In the meantime, it gives WBC another opportunity to go before the Supreme Court, where they will likely win. And they should.
Short-sighted election year bullshit.
In the meantime, it gives WBC another opportunity to go before the Supreme Court, where they will likely win. And they should.
Short-sighted election year bullshit.
40
When free speech becomes harassment or disturbing the peace, then yes, you can put limits on it. Screaming obscenities at someone in a library isn't allowed, so I don't think Westboro's antics should be either.
42
@36 I still say Dick Cheney is the worst American alive, maybe the worst human alive. I'd like to lock him in a house with some bereaved and well-armed Iraqis, or leave him alone on an ice floe with a polar bear, so they could tell him what they think of what he's done to their home. I still don't see the value in protesting his funeral. What's that going to accomplish, in exchange for opening any funeral to potential trolls? Now, if enough mourners show up to the funeral of a kid who's been shot by the police, say, and it turns into a protest with the family's consent, that's something completely different. There's just no need to violate the survivors' right to mourn however they choose.
43
Our right to freedom of speech is not a right to say or do anything, anywhere. Laws already place all kinds of limits on free speech, and this one is no different.
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