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News & ArtsFriday, July 6, 2012
Education / Politics / Money Why Subsidize Public K-12 If We're Going to Price Students Out of College?
Posted by Goldy on Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 8:43 AM
So, the topic of skyrocketing college tuition rates and the mountains of debt with which students are graduating came up in a recent SECB interview, and it got me thinking: What if there were no free, public K-12 schools, either?
Let's say we moved back to the good old days before government started intervening into every aspect of our daily lives, and we just left it to families, churches, and the free market to educate our children as they deem best. What would that educational landscape look like? I mean, forget college tuition—wouldn't most families struggle just to send their kids through high school?
According to data compiled by the Council for American Private Education, the average US private K-12 tuition was $10,045 in 2007-2008, ranging from an average $9,066 per year at Catholic schools to an average $16,247 at non-religious schools. That's a lot of money, and given the past four years of inflation it's no doubt climbed higher. Currently here in Seattle, O'Dea High School starts at $10,032 for Catholic students, Seattle Prep costs $14,700, and the ritzy Lakeside School runs $27,250 a year. Full-time preschool and daycare aren't any cheaper.
Of course, many families could not afford to pay private school tuition, and so given the state's interest in assuring a well educated citizenry and workforce, we endeavor to provide a quality public school option at a not inconsiderable taxpayer expense. Which raises the question: Don't we have the same or similar public interest when it comes to higher education?
At the time compulsory public education became widespread in the United States during the latter half of the 19th century, a high school diploma was as much as most American workers would need, with colleges and universities mostly reserved for the elite. But after World War II, thanks in part to the GI Bill, but also due to the demands of our increasingly complex and technological economy, states started investing heavily in expanding and subsidizing their public university systems, dramatically increasing access. Indeed, many of the lawmakers who have slashed funding for higher education in recent years, themselves benefited from highly subsidized tuition back during our public university system's heyday.
So what has changed between, say, 1980 and today? Is a college education less useful, less economically necessary now than it was 32 years ago? Quite the opposite.
I guess my point is, we either value a college education, or we don't. If we truly believe that a highly educated citizenry is a necessary component of a functional economy and democracy, then why do we draw this arbitrary (and increasingly stark) distinction between high school and college? Why do we fully subsidize the education of unskilled workers while leaving our potential future engineers, doctors, nurses, business creators, etc. to fend for themselves? Where is the economic or civic sense in that?
Of course, there isn't any sense in providing a free high school education while pricing otherwise qualified applicants out of a college education, which is why the hard right is busy trying to defund both. Cognitive dissonance problem solved.
1
Is a college degree more valuable than ever?
Yes.
Hence it should cost more and at the same time the bearers of this valuable commodity should be willing to mortgage more of their lives for it...same with high school.
In some sense the world of a subsidized education was needed because auto workers used to make more than nerds.
Now meeting your Zuckerberg at college can lead to untold riches. At worst, your income is nearly guaranteed to be multiples of that same auto worker in today's literate, numeric web world.
Yes.
Hence it should cost more and at the same time the bearers of this valuable commodity should be willing to mortgage more of their lives for it...same with high school.
In some sense the world of a subsidized education was needed because auto workers used to make more than nerds.
Now meeting your Zuckerberg at college can lead to untold riches. At worst, your income is nearly guaranteed to be multiples of that same auto worker in today's literate, numeric web world.
2
“we either value a college education, or we don't”
I think that over simplifies things too much. Fact is, most kids come out of the public high school system with a roughly equivalent mediocre education. College education, on the other hand, is incredibly variable (even within the same institution). UW (for instance) cranks out Engineering Majors and Women’s Studies Majors at about the same cost, but those degrees do not have the same actual value (i.e. earning potential/return on investment).
I think it would be more accurate to say: “we either value a useful college education, or we don’t.”
Shockingly, an education in applied arts is not equivalent to an education in applied sciences.
I think that over simplifies things too much. Fact is, most kids come out of the public high school system with a roughly equivalent mediocre education. College education, on the other hand, is incredibly variable (even within the same institution). UW (for instance) cranks out Engineering Majors and Women’s Studies Majors at about the same cost, but those degrees do not have the same actual value (i.e. earning potential/return on investment).
I think it would be more accurate to say: “we either value a useful college education, or we don’t.”
Shockingly, an education in applied arts is not equivalent to an education in applied sciences.
3
So what you're saying is national suicide is cheaper. A lot of good all that education spending has done us if we think like this.
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Is there value to a college education? Sure. But considering the ever increasing demand for higher and higher level degrees - just try getting most white collar jobs, even low end, with just a BA or BS - it doesn't mean what it used to. And a focus on college education is most assuredly limiting our skilled labor pool. Folks with a Bachelor's in English are typically much more suited to waiting tables than they are anything in academia or the tech fields.
5
Germany is well know for it's highly productive and well paid work-force. Yet the Germans send far fewer of their young people to college than we do in the United States. If done properly, a high school education is perfectly adequate preparation for most 21st century workers.
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We need a vast unskilled workforce to replace all the undocumented immigrants were going to deport. Why import when you can grow your own?
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@1
Do tell, why? In what fields? Don't propagate that FUD myth that everyone needs to go the full four year bachelor's route, or deeper into masters or doctorate territory. It is entirely dependent on a laundry list of factors and considerations. The idea that everyone HAS to have paper is as nonsense as the myth started in the Bush administration that everyone had to be a home owner.
Is a college degree more valuable than ever?
Yes.
Do tell, why? In what fields? Don't propagate that FUD myth that everyone needs to go the full four year bachelor's route, or deeper into masters or doctorate territory. It is entirely dependent on a laundry list of factors and considerations. The idea that everyone HAS to have paper is as nonsense as the myth started in the Bush administration that everyone had to be a home owner.
8
A college education per se is certainly less valuable than it used to be.
A lot of people who were never going to have a terribly high earning potential anyway--for lack of motivation, work ethic, or just plain old aptitude--waste four (or more) years in college, not earning any money AND usually racking up considerable debt, and at the end of it only marginally improve their prospects, because their degrees are barely worth the paper that they are printed on.
Your art history/women's studies/film studies/English literature degree is only worth something if you either 1) use your time in it to cultivate a truly marketable skill, like writing well, 2) get it from a sufficiently elite school that you have the opportunity to plug into that school's network (and aggressively take advantage of that network), or 3) are sufficiently talented in your field of study to pursue graduate studies and make a modest living in one of the very few academic positions available teaching it.
Easily 50% of the undergraduate student body of this country would be much better served by spending that time in focused occupational training, or simply by entering the workforce full-time.
A lot of people who were never going to have a terribly high earning potential anyway--for lack of motivation, work ethic, or just plain old aptitude--waste four (or more) years in college, not earning any money AND usually racking up considerable debt, and at the end of it only marginally improve their prospects, because their degrees are barely worth the paper that they are printed on.
Your art history/women's studies/film studies/English literature degree is only worth something if you either 1) use your time in it to cultivate a truly marketable skill, like writing well, 2) get it from a sufficiently elite school that you have the opportunity to plug into that school's network (and aggressively take advantage of that network), or 3) are sufficiently talented in your field of study to pursue graduate studies and make a modest living in one of the very few academic positions available teaching it.
Easily 50% of the undergraduate student body of this country would be much better served by spending that time in focused occupational training, or simply by entering the workforce full-time.
9
You can pay unskilled workers a lot less than those who are educated. And can you imagine the cost savings if the work force was just totally ignorant? ONWARD TO PROFITS!!!!!
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@2 Public K-2 education is not uniform at all and varies a whole lot depending on where you live and where your kids go to school. In the Seattle School District alone the quality of education my kids recieved was night and day different depending on where they went to school. We no longer have unequal schools based on race (by itself) but based on class (racialy biased by corelation) and level of parental involvement. The schools that have active site committees with good fundraising can pay for enhanced programs and atract better teachers.
You obviously don't have kids or have not gotten involved in there education. Or maybe you live somewhere else with a uniformly poor public school system.
You obviously don't have kids or have not gotten involved in there education. Or maybe you live somewhere else with a uniformly poor public school system.
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@8 This is why I think high levels of student debt are a good thing. If a greater portion of the cost of a college degree is borne by the student, then he or she will have a greater incentive to critically evaluate the worth of the education he or she receives.
13
I recently hired someone who was just short of a college degree. Couldn't show up on time. Couldn't follow simple rules like doing one particular piece of paperwork on a daily basis as required in this workplace. didn't understand the concept of a to do list. Had to tell him to make one and bring paper and list to morning meetings.
When I was 15 in contrast, at my first job at a snack stand at a public sports center I showed up with a clipboard ready to take notes from my boss. And no, nobody told me to do that.
Being socially smart and capable is not even something they teach in college. The value of some degrees is "not much" in my opinion, and going the German way of actual skills training would be better for about 40% of all college students. Along with the higher taxes. Oh wait, Inslee isn't for higher taxes, so we got a choice of two republicans this election anyway.
When I was 15 in contrast, at my first job at a snack stand at a public sports center I showed up with a clipboard ready to take notes from my boss. And no, nobody told me to do that.
Being socially smart and capable is not even something they teach in college. The value of some degrees is "not much" in my opinion, and going the German way of actual skills training would be better for about 40% of all college students. Along with the higher taxes. Oh wait, Inslee isn't for higher taxes, so we got a choice of two republicans this election anyway.
14
Who says the state has an interest in a well-educated citizenry and workforce? That's a mighty big assumption right there. The state's interest is docile citizens, compliant workers, and obedient soldiers, which is exactly what compulsory schooling was designed to produce. If we let too many people get too educated, they won't be as easily pacified by the industrial-media-amusement complex, will stop fighting and paying for wars, and want more interesting jobs than part-time Wal*Mart greeters.
15
@13, intersting your idea of "teaching skills" being the major issue that college should do. That was the German educational philosophy at the turn of the last century and well into that ....period of German history.
You should read "Coming of the Third Reich" by Richard Evans to explore just what this "heavy emphasis on technical education" helped to lead to.
A well rounded liberal arts education is vital to the well-being of a democratic republic.
You should read "Coming of the Third Reich" by Richard Evans to explore just what this "heavy emphasis on technical education" helped to lead to.
A well rounded liberal arts education is vital to the well-being of a democratic republic.
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@15 coy much?
The German system today provides for a strong middle class and working class. So strong Germany is able to bail out greece, etc. the choice is not (a) well rounded liberal arts citizen philosophers versus (b) teaching skills which leads to naziism. it's a choice between, basically, (a) the american system in which the upper class gets the real full on liberals arts deal and reproduces itself, while the working class gets ghetto failure education, or the kind of community college masquerading as a state university that doesn't even teach the guy to keep a fucking to do list. THAT is failure. What with 30% dropping out, another 30% not knowing to keep a to do list, and only 40% making it to the middle class and upper middle class professions. of whom some are smart citizen philosophers and most are just greedy doctors and business owners. versus the (b) German system today which is:
- a mature democracy. not a third reich like you imply. gee, how authoritarian can you be?
-with middle class and working class that's still on the upswing not the stagnation and wage losses we have in america, all the result
--not of the germans you cite but of our american new deal which we imposed on germany by kicking their ass in a war then taking over. we set up their worker councils. we made them go social democrat in effect, to block the commies. we tried full on employment oriented poicies there, not here in america. we should learn from germany today. people like you are just wine supping liberals who let the working class rot while your snobby noses are in a book you're reading while the society around you fails working class people. bo bo's.
The German system today provides for a strong middle class and working class. So strong Germany is able to bail out greece, etc. the choice is not (a) well rounded liberal arts citizen philosophers versus (b) teaching skills which leads to naziism. it's a choice between, basically, (a) the american system in which the upper class gets the real full on liberals arts deal and reproduces itself, while the working class gets ghetto failure education, or the kind of community college masquerading as a state university that doesn't even teach the guy to keep a fucking to do list. THAT is failure. What with 30% dropping out, another 30% not knowing to keep a to do list, and only 40% making it to the middle class and upper middle class professions. of whom some are smart citizen philosophers and most are just greedy doctors and business owners. versus the (b) German system today which is:
- a mature democracy. not a third reich like you imply. gee, how authoritarian can you be?
-with middle class and working class that's still on the upswing not the stagnation and wage losses we have in america, all the result
--not of the germans you cite but of our american new deal which we imposed on germany by kicking their ass in a war then taking over. we set up their worker councils. we made them go social democrat in effect, to block the commies. we tried full on employment oriented poicies there, not here in america. we should learn from germany today. people like you are just wine supping liberals who let the working class rot while your snobby noses are in a book you're reading while the society around you fails working class people. bo bo's.
17
Ken Mehlman: Germany sends fewer people to college because Germany (and Austria and Switzerland) also have robust state-sponsored trade school programs.
Students are assessed during their early years, and selected for one path or the other, college or trade school, whichever is most appropriate for their abilities and intelligence.
Why we don't have such a system here is mind-boggling. 'Murrican exceptionalism at its dismal worst.
Students are assessed during their early years, and selected for one path or the other, college or trade school, whichever is most appropriate for their abilities and intelligence.
Why we don't have such a system here is mind-boggling. 'Murrican exceptionalism at its dismal worst.
18
What if there were no free, public K-12 schools, either?
Of course, as I'm sure you realize by now, that charter school referendum is step one in that process --- to privatize everything, and to make us pay for everything.
Of course, as I'm sure you realize by now, that charter school referendum is step one in that process --- to privatize everything, and to make us pay for everything.
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@15: I do not think you are going to be able to prove that technical education leads straight to nazism. Something tells me there were other factors at play there. At least one other factor.
@17: We do not have that system here because our nation was founded on the idea that a person should be able to lead their life to wherever they want. The government giving you your career path in your youth is pretty close to the antithesis of that.
Now as to whether or not that is a good thing is another issue I suppose. I just wish we as a society did not demonize working with our hands so much. We teach a generation that anything other than a white collar job is a failure, and wonder why no one wants to go to trade school.
@17: We do not have that system here because our nation was founded on the idea that a person should be able to lead their life to wherever they want. The government giving you your career path in your youth is pretty close to the antithesis of that.
Now as to whether or not that is a good thing is another issue I suppose. I just wish we as a society did not demonize working with our hands so much. We teach a generation that anything other than a white collar job is a failure, and wonder why no one wants to go to trade school.
20
"Don't we have the same or similar public interest when it comes to higher education?"
We have an interest, and a big one. Is it as big as K-12? Nope
We have an interest, and a big one. Is it as big as K-12? Nope
21
My boss's kid barely made it through high school and was in plenty of trouble the whole time he was there. He is now in his early twenties, a skilled welder, has never been unemployed since he started working, and has a high-paying blue collar job.
4 more years of academia would not have been a good outcome for him. And kids like him are terribly underserved by the American system which assumes college education after graduation for everybody.
4 more years of academia would not have been a good outcome for him. And kids like him are terribly underserved by the American system which assumes college education after graduation for everybody.
22
Note: Washington does not have free kindergarten! You have to pay $3000 a year if you want your kid to attend full-day; if not, your kid doesn't get math or science (afternoons) and starts first grade a year behind in those subjects already.
I mean, let's talk about K-12 funding before we even begin to talk about higher education.
I mean, let's talk about K-12 funding before we even begin to talk about higher education.
23
@8 So what you're saying is... a college education is only worthwhile if you take the trouble to use it to educate yourself?
Degrees in physics and chemistry aren't a magic ticket to employability, you know -- don't you know any unemployed scientists?
Degrees in physics and chemistry aren't a magic ticket to employability, you know -- don't you know any unemployed scientists?
24
@15: "A well rounded liberal arts education is vital to the well-being of a democratic republic."
Ohhh boy... How I'd love to hear you actually say that to the thousands of new graduates of schools like Hampshire College and Umass Amherst with liberal arts degrees desperately searching for a way avoid living with their parents for the next decade without resorting to homelessness.
Ohhh boy... How I'd love to hear you actually say that to the thousands of new graduates of schools like Hampshire College and Umass Amherst with liberal arts degrees desperately searching for a way avoid living with their parents for the next decade without resorting to homelessness.
25
A lot of people in this thread can't seem to see the forest for the trees. No, not everyone need pursue post-secondary education, but a healthy society should encourage and facilitate it for as many citizens as possible. Study after study shows that the most rational decisions (in matters of political, social, environmental, or otherwise ethical importance) are reached by those with at least some college education. I'm not talking about individuals and their earning potentials; I'm talking about a voting, engaged citizenry that drives the very democracy we all value.
I wonder, how many Slog commenters have a college education versus only a high school diploma? I suspect we're a pretty well-educated bunch.
I wonder, how many Slog commenters have a college education versus only a high school diploma? I suspect we're a pretty well-educated bunch.
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@23--Degrees in physics and chemistry aren't a magic ticket to employability, you know -- don't you know any unemployed scientists?
I never said there was anything magical about a science degree, but honestly...no, I don't think I do know any unemployed scientists. And I know an awful lot of scientists, since I am one.
I also don't know any unemployed engineers, plumbers, or auto mechanics.
But I also know a hell of a lot of (really smart, talented, creative) people with liberal arts degrees who tend bar. I'm sure many of them derive personal satisfaction and enrichment from their education--I'd love to have the time and money to study literature myself!--but I also think that they would be doing as well (or better) financially without those degrees.
I think a liberal education is a fine thing, as long as your expectations of what you're actually going to get out of it are grounded in reality. I don't think that they are, for many, many people.
I never said there was anything magical about a science degree, but honestly...no, I don't think I do know any unemployed scientists. And I know an awful lot of scientists, since I am one.
I also don't know any unemployed engineers, plumbers, or auto mechanics.
But I also know a hell of a lot of (really smart, talented, creative) people with liberal arts degrees who tend bar. I'm sure many of them derive personal satisfaction and enrichment from their education--I'd love to have the time and money to study literature myself!--but I also think that they would be doing as well (or better) financially without those degrees.
I think a liberal education is a fine thing, as long as your expectations of what you're actually going to get out of it are grounded in reality. I don't think that they are, for many, many people.
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@25: College degree. In Wildlife Conservation. Why? Because I wanted to do EPO work. What was I actually able to get a job in? IT. That's partly because I graduated when GW became Prez and environmental work went POOF, but still, I would have been better served by getting a tech degree. Sure, I agree with you people with more education often have better decision making skills. But when you can't get a job in anything other than blue collar work without at least a Masters - and let me tell you, that's more true by the day - weighing the societal benefits of higher education pales in comparison of how these people are going to feed themselves.
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@25: Oh, and one other thing. It's not a forest, and they aren't trees. They're people looking for work and unable to get it because their parents and society spent years hammering into their heads they wouldn't be anything if they didn't go to college, but neglected to tell them that some college degrees are more useful than others. There are a lot more history degrees out there than there are history teacher positions. And English, and Communications, and etc...
29
Love it...an anti-higher education rant on Seattle's most liberal blog. Man we are totally fucked!
30
My sister used to work along side a college graduate. She earned maybe 1,000 more per year than she did and with that, was first to be laid off.
4 year degree isnt always as valuable, in fact, it might complicate things later on in life. Go to a community college instead, because while my sisters co-worker had a degree, she was also as dumb as a sack of hammers, she had zero work ethics.
4 year degree isnt always as valuable, in fact, it might complicate things later on in life. Go to a community college instead, because while my sisters co-worker had a degree, she was also as dumb as a sack of hammers, she had zero work ethics.
31
A worthwhile read for anyone not willing to swallow the lie that young people aren't getting the "right" kind of education to find a job:
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Students aren’t majoring in the right fields: true or false?
Peter Cappelli: Well, it doesn’t look like that’s true. The business degrees are now, by far, the most popular major, and that’s where people are getting jobs, so that’s pretty common. Liberal arts, you know, everybody thinks people have got liberal arts degrees. They’ve fallen like crazy. Kids are jamming the vocational schools. Community colleges are jammed with people who’ve already got college degrees, people trying to get practical degrees. The nursing shortage is no longer. Even the employers have said there’s no shortage of nurses now, because so many people were chasing those certificates and those degrees and those learning experiences. So the students are killing themselves trying to get courses that they think will give them a job. So they say they’re not trying? That’s certainly false.
Steven Cherry: Now, you said that while there isn’t a skills gap, there is indeed a training gap…
Peter Cappelli: Yes, and I’d say that’s a big problem for public policy, because what every employer says they want, and if you look at the surveys of hiring managers, it’s clear they want people with experience. There’s not a shortage of people coming out of college bright and ambitious. There’s a shortage of people who have done the job before, and in many fields you can’t easily learn this stuff in a classroom. You can’t learn to be a surgeon in a classroom. We know that. You can’t really learn to be a carpenter in a classroom. We know that. You can’t learn to be a machinist. It’s hard to learn to be a manager in a classroom. I mean, MBA degrees are great, but to be a good manager, you have to be able to have tried this stuff out and had the experience of doing it. So the shortfall is in giving people experience, taking people out of school who are bright and capable, and giving them the basics and getting them up to speed in these work-based skills. And the problem is, employers a generation ago used to do this routinely; now, virtually none of them are willing to do it.
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@28, but where are you getting the idea that all those English, Fine Arts and History majors would be better off in STEM disciplines or even IT? When I was younger, I was encouraged to study technology for practical reasons, despite having no interest or inclination whatsoever. Instead, I got two degrees in English, and with a bit of teaching and management experience, I'm doing okay. In fact, I'm a way better teacher, manager, writer, thinker, mentor,and citizen because of those two degrees. Their value is simply not quantifiable.
There are a lot of people out there like me. Telling them to study science or technology is not going to help them, or the society their education is supposed to ultimately benefit, one bit.
@31, thank you for posting that. My partner and I discussed the original article when it came out, and it further convinces me that if companies were willing to provide training, then more people could go off and get their Humanities or social sciences degrees (or spend a year travelling, or work in another field, or whatever), and then bring that knowledge to a company that will give them the more specific skills for the job at hand. This, I am convinced, results in healthier companies. I've never met an effective business owner or CEO who didn't have wide-ranging intelligence and knowledge outside their field.
There are a lot of people out there like me. Telling them to study science or technology is not going to help them, or the society their education is supposed to ultimately benefit, one bit.
@31, thank you for posting that. My partner and I discussed the original article when it came out, and it further convinces me that if companies were willing to provide training, then more people could go off and get their Humanities or social sciences degrees (or spend a year travelling, or work in another field, or whatever), and then bring that knowledge to a company that will give them the more specific skills for the job at hand. This, I am convinced, results in healthier companies. I've never met an effective business owner or CEO who didn't have wide-ranging intelligence and knowledge outside their field.
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@33,
I'm fully convinced that, once the economy recovers, employers are going to start whining that they can't find "well-rounded" employees, only people who specialize in specific fields and can't write or reason worth a damn.
I'm fully convinced that, once the economy recovers, employers are going to start whining that they can't find "well-rounded" employees, only people who specialize in specific fields and can't write or reason worth a damn.
35
First off, I think it needs to be said: "Practical degrees" are great, for those who want them. But just like any job field, if you end up having too many aspiring workers flooding the market looking for jobs in the same field, the degree can become as worthless as any other degree you ridicule for supposedly lacking value.
Second, I don't know where people get the idea that everyone is rushing to get worthless liberal arts degrees in unheard of fields is coming from. According to stats pulled from Georgetown University Center on Education and the Workforce; Business is the most popular major in the country (Business Management and Administration to be correct, followed be General Business, Accounting, Nursing, Psychology, Marketing and Marketing Research, Communications, Elementary Education, etc.). People aren't going to school in droves for fine art degrees or degrees in Shakespearean Literature. That's a fantasy you cling to for God knows what reason.
Having said that, I notice barely anyone in this thread tackled the problem of employer expectations. You put all the blame on the College Grad. I'm fine with saying some of that lies on their door step. No problem there. I've known college grads who have assumed the degree was a golden ticket (although part of that societal expectations as well). That's not a smart move. But how can you completely bypass the reality that employers these days seem to have completely unrealistic expectations? Entry level clerical positions want a BA and 3-5 years experience in the field. For what? Filing? Billing? I could take a McDonald's worker with a High School diploma and train them on a system like EPIC (which Hospitals around here use) in a week or two MAX and they'd be doing just as well as the average employee at their business is currently doing. I recently saw a posting asking for a Masters and 3-5 years experience in Community Organizing.... For a part time college position paying $17,000/year with their Diversity House to engage Student Clubs. I don't care how you cut it, that's ridiculous. Employers are being picky because they *can* be with a such a massive amount of people looking for work, not because people lack the skills. We can put up a position for entry level and where we used to get maybe 30-40 qualified people applying we now get anywhere from 150-400 (we had one posting grab 500 applications, most of which were plenty qualified, some of whom were actually *overqualified*).
More...
Second, I don't know where people get the idea that everyone is rushing to get worthless liberal arts degrees in unheard of fields is coming from. According to stats pulled from Georgetown University Center on Education and the Workforce; Business is the most popular major in the country (Business Management and Administration to be correct, followed be General Business, Accounting, Nursing, Psychology, Marketing and Marketing Research, Communications, Elementary Education, etc.). People aren't going to school in droves for fine art degrees or degrees in Shakespearean Literature. That's a fantasy you cling to for God knows what reason.
Having said that, I notice barely anyone in this thread tackled the problem of employer expectations. You put all the blame on the College Grad. I'm fine with saying some of that lies on their door step. No problem there. I've known college grads who have assumed the degree was a golden ticket (although part of that societal expectations as well). That's not a smart move. But how can you completely bypass the reality that employers these days seem to have completely unrealistic expectations? Entry level clerical positions want a BA and 3-5 years experience in the field. For what? Filing? Billing? I could take a McDonald's worker with a High School diploma and train them on a system like EPIC (which Hospitals around here use) in a week or two MAX and they'd be doing just as well as the average employee at their business is currently doing. I recently saw a posting asking for a Masters and 3-5 years experience in Community Organizing.... For a part time college position paying $17,000/year with their Diversity House to engage Student Clubs. I don't care how you cut it, that's ridiculous. Employers are being picky because they *can* be with a such a massive amount of people looking for work, not because people lack the skills. We can put up a position for entry level and where we used to get maybe 30-40 qualified people applying we now get anywhere from 150-400 (we had one posting grab 500 applications, most of which were plenty qualified, some of whom were actually *overqualified*).
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@35 If it is common to find college grads doing low level clerical jobs most high school grads could handle, then perhaps were sending to many people to college?
37
Ken, perhaps you should have gone to college. I belive what you meant was 'perhaps we're sending too many people to college.' And that's simply not the case. We're shuffling people through college while doing very little to prepare them for the reality that happens after the diploma is handed to them.
Too many graduating students have this vague notion that a job will be given to them, as if there's a second podium on the risers: right after the person handing out the diplomas is the person handing out the jobs, right? Employers want experience, these students should be interning during their summer breaks or finding volunteer opportunities that are relevant to their field of study. Employers aren't willing to invest in training; they want new hires that can walk in, sit down, and do the job. Training was one of the first functions cut in many organizations. It's up to the person who seeks entry into a given field to find the means of obtaining that experience by whatever means possible. Very often that means taking a position several rungs down the laddder from where that person feels they should be. I recently had a conversation with a newly graduated Masters degree holder who felt that his MS entitled him to a CEO or director level position, with no real working eperience. I had to eplain to him that pride goeth before an empty belly.
Too many graduating students have this vague notion that a job will be given to them, as if there's a second podium on the risers: right after the person handing out the diplomas is the person handing out the jobs, right? Employers want experience, these students should be interning during their summer breaks or finding volunteer opportunities that are relevant to their field of study. Employers aren't willing to invest in training; they want new hires that can walk in, sit down, and do the job. Training was one of the first functions cut in many organizations. It's up to the person who seeks entry into a given field to find the means of obtaining that experience by whatever means possible. Very often that means taking a position several rungs down the laddder from where that person feels they should be. I recently had a conversation with a newly graduated Masters degree holder who felt that his MS entitled him to a CEO or director level position, with no real working eperience. I had to eplain to him that pride goeth before an empty belly.
38
"Is a college degree more valuable than ever? Yes. Hence it should cost more and at the same time the bearers of this valuable commodity should be willing to mortgage more of their lives for it...same with high school."
Air and water are more valuable. Yet they are cheaper. Far cheaper.
It is not the value of the item that determines its price. Econ 101 fail.
Air and water are more valuable. Yet they are cheaper. Far cheaper.
It is not the value of the item that determines its price. Econ 101 fail.
39
"A well rounded liberal arts education is vital to the well-being of a democratic republic."
Brown eggs served with crispy bacon are vital to the well-being of a democratic republic!
My statement has as much to support it as yours.
Brown eggs served with crispy bacon are vital to the well-being of a democratic republic!
My statement has as much to support it as yours.
40
@39 Is it possible that people who know something about history and public policy will make better decisions in the voting booth?
41
@40 It is possible. It is also possible that a politician could be totally honest and still be elected. I just hasn't been demonstrated yet.
43
@36,
If it is common to find college grads doing low level clerical jobs most high school grads could handle, then perhaps employers have too high expectations?
If it is common to find college grads doing low level clerical jobs most high school grads could handle, then perhaps too many non-college-bound high school graduates can barely read and write?
If it is common to find college grads doing low level clerical jobs most high school grads could handle, then perhaps this economy is fucking shit?
If it is common to find college grads doing low level clerical jobs most high school grads could handle, then perhaps employers have too high expectations?
If it is common to find college grads doing low level clerical jobs most high school grads could handle, then perhaps too many non-college-bound high school graduates can barely read and write?
If it is common to find college grads doing low level clerical jobs most high school grads could handle, then perhaps this economy is fucking shit?
44
Parents who send their kids to private college should be subject to the Draft for Front Line Troops in whatever war(s) we're fighting at the time. With no exemptions.
45
There are too many college degrees. It means very little to have bullshitted one's way in their very young adult years through a system whose very existence is threatened if students do *not* earn their degrees and spend their [parents'?] money there. It simply doesn't look good if a college flunks out a lot of the people they let in, regardless of the fact that many students just aren't interested in college, learning, growing, or have any idea what they're going to do with that degree.
So here's what we have: millions of 22- and 23-year-olds with degrees who have no plans, no connections, no idea. And then we have even more employers who want real people, preferably with degrees, that are competent, enthusiastic, and hardworking. But for many grads, the party's not over when they get their degree. Also, they hadn't the foresight to befriend professors or get internships if they didn't have to or volunteer or get involved in research groups. And a few years later, they still have no skills because they've worked somewhere they didn't even need a degree to obtain employment at. In fact, they probably have even less, because their brains aren't even straining to cram for finals anymore. And then their confidence begins to wane and their interest starts to pile up. It's a shame.
In my opinion, college needs to be more challenging, and schools need to regularly require students to get more involved in the field they think they want to go into. The degree is not a means to an end, but a small piece in the repertoire of what makes one a desirable candidate. A lot of students don't understand that until it's too late.
So here's what we have: millions of 22- and 23-year-olds with degrees who have no plans, no connections, no idea. And then we have even more employers who want real people, preferably with degrees, that are competent, enthusiastic, and hardworking. But for many grads, the party's not over when they get their degree. Also, they hadn't the foresight to befriend professors or get internships if they didn't have to or volunteer or get involved in research groups. And a few years later, they still have no skills because they've worked somewhere they didn't even need a degree to obtain employment at. In fact, they probably have even less, because their brains aren't even straining to cram for finals anymore. And then their confidence begins to wane and their interest starts to pile up. It's a shame.
In my opinion, college needs to be more challenging, and schools need to regularly require students to get more involved in the field they think they want to go into. The degree is not a means to an end, but a small piece in the repertoire of what makes one a desirable candidate. A lot of students don't understand that until it's too late.
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