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News & ArtsTuesday, June 26, 2012
Politics / Sex / The Ladies Falling Out of Love With Sandra Fluke
Posted by Dan Savage on Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 9:16 AM
From Sandra Fluke's interview in the "Talk" column in last Sunday's New York Times Magazine:
Rick Santorum said during his campaign that pornography “contributes to misogyny and violence against women.” Do you agree?
Congratulations on finding a position that Rick Santorum and I agree upon. I do think there’s a serious problem with the violence we see in some pornography, and it has severe consequences for sexual-assault rates. That said, I don’t think that all erotic material is necessarily problematic. As a friend put it, she would be just fine with feminist porn.
What does feminist porn look like?
I’ll let you know when I find any.
Melinda Wenner Moyer writing in Scientific American:
Perhaps the most serious accusation against pornography is that it incites sexual aggression. But not only do rape statistics suggest otherwise, some experts believe the consumption of pornography may actually reduce the desire to rape by offering a safe, private outlet for deviant sexual desires.
“Rates of rapes and sexual assault in the U.S. are at their lowest levels since the 1960s,” says Christopher J. Ferguson, a professor of psychology and criminal justice at Texas A&M International University. The same goes for other countries: as access to pornography grew in once restrictive Japan, China and Denmark in the past 40 years, rape statistics plummeted. Within the U.S., the states with the least Internet access between 1980 and 2000—and therefore the least access to Internet pornography—experienced a 53 percent increase in rape incidence, whereas the states with the most access experienced a 27 percent drop in the number of reported rapes, according to a paper published in 2006 by Anthony D’Amato, a law professor at Northwestern University.
It is important to note that these associations are just that—associations. They do not prove that pornography is the cause of the observed crime reductions. Nevertheless, the trends “just don’t fit with the theory that rape and sexual assault are in part influenced by pornography,” Ferguson explains. “At this point I think we can say the evidence just isn’t there, and it is time to retire this belief.”
"Porn causes sexual assault" is a lie—it's a lie like "abortion causes breast cancer" and "contraception causes chaste women to become sluts." That you happen to agree with Rick on this issue doesn't mean you have a nuanced or complex take on human sexuality, Sandra, it means you're just as susceptible to the sex-negativity and shame that sloshes around in our culture as the rightwingers who attacked you for advocacy around contraception.
And if you and your friends would like to find some feminist porn, Sandra, Violet Blue's blog is an excellent place to start. You're also welcome to attend HUMP! 2012 as my guest. And speaking of HUMP! 2012...
1
After I came out in college at a quaint little Christo-Fascist college in Spokane the topic of gay porn came up. (Not by me BTW) and I was warned that gay porn (you know man on man fucking on tape) victimizes women. Hand to the magical cloud being...gay porn apparently victimizes women.
So when I hear people freak out about porn I just have to ask what in the hell are they talking about and who cares?
So when I hear people freak out about porn I just have to ask what in the hell are they talking about and who cares?
2
If only she said that she personally has a problem with pornography, instead of trying to link it with societal problems. But, apparently she is now a talking head now, so I'm not surprised she is saying very ignorant things unquestioned.
5
I wouldn't consider it a defense of porn, just that the worst criticism isn't accurate. Porn moving into the mainstream doesn't seem to be having a positive impact on women's self-image and relationships. Most of the articles on that seem to be anecdotal, and maybe it's just as off-base.
7
I read that interview, and I had that exact thought: "Feminist porn? Does she not know what HUMP is?"
8
you know, its not sex negative to dislike or find distasteful some particular aspect of erotic life, that is called judgement, and it is inherent in everything we do. i might find a particular sex act or lifestyle unpleasant, and if you let me know that you participate in it, I'll tell you. but I won't support legislating against it, or calling you an inherently bad person. sex negativity is preventing others from having a sexual life you don't like, not saying you don't like it.
9
Do we worry nearly as much about slasher flicks having "severe consequences" for murder rates? Or do we only give some credit to people's ability to separate fantasy from reality when sex isn't involved?
11
@9 I think the problem with sex/porn is that as a society its impossible to have an open/honest conversation about sex. As such, it becomes difficult for many to separate out fantasy/reality when it comes to porn and sex.
12
Rape statistics may have plummeted with access to pornography; but that doesn't mean that pornography, as an industry, is out there saving women. Her comments, as long as they aren't attached to any sort of anti-porn crusade, seem fairly benign. I mean, I love porn, but have you SEEN any porn lately? It's not just full of gross misogyny and violence against women, but it also appears to be a stronghold of racist stereotypes. Pornography, as an industry, DEFINITELY promotes violence against women, against people of color, against trans people, and against anyone who just wants to look at sexy fun times without seeing a bunch of gross dudes and plastic surgeryed ladies.
The 'violence' that mainstream pornography perpetrates against women is more full spectrum than just rape, it's about creating a rape culture. Pornography itself didn't make those rape statistics plummet, access to sex did. The crap out there that passes for 'regular porn' most definitely creates a rape culture where women can be sexual assaulted in ways that may not even be counted statistically.
Hungry Beast in Australia tried connecting censorship laws around pornography to labiaplasty rates a few years ago: http://www.abc.net.au/tv/hungrybeast/sto… you can also follow the trend with the rise of brazilian waxes and pornography trends.
There is definitely good porn out there, but I don't understand why people would bother protecting bad porn and not hold it accountable for being sexist racist trash.
I'm still in love with Sandra Fluke, she just needs to see some good porn.
The 'violence' that mainstream pornography perpetrates against women is more full spectrum than just rape, it's about creating a rape culture. Pornography itself didn't make those rape statistics plummet, access to sex did. The crap out there that passes for 'regular porn' most definitely creates a rape culture where women can be sexual assaulted in ways that may not even be counted statistically.
Hungry Beast in Australia tried connecting censorship laws around pornography to labiaplasty rates a few years ago: http://www.abc.net.au/tv/hungrybeast/sto… you can also follow the trend with the rise of brazilian waxes and pornography trends.
There is definitely good porn out there, but I don't understand why people would bother protecting bad porn and not hold it accountable for being sexist racist trash.
I'm still in love with Sandra Fluke, she just needs to see some good porn.
14
@8, @12: yes, yes, yes. The decrease of sexual assault rates at the same time that access to porn increased does NOTHING to prove that porn doesn't contribute to assault. Dan, I know you'd love to believe that porn is totally benign and everything about it should be celebrated, but that's just not true.
I love porn. I watch porn almost every day. And I know a lot about the porn that the vast majority of us end up watching, because it saturates the market: it's BDSM porn, but without being marketed as BDSM. It's degradation and power dynamics and face-slapping and face-cumming (which I find hot)... but without the careful consent acquisition and processing that well-done BDSM porn includes! It's basically assault. And I like the idea of porn, but I am not down with the practical reality of assault.
While you can't prove conclusively that porn has nothing to do with sexual assault (and you can't), you shouldn't fault those who believe it.
I love porn. I watch porn almost every day. And I know a lot about the porn that the vast majority of us end up watching, because it saturates the market: it's BDSM porn, but without being marketed as BDSM. It's degradation and power dynamics and face-slapping and face-cumming (which I find hot)... but without the careful consent acquisition and processing that well-done BDSM porn includes! It's basically assault. And I like the idea of porn, but I am not down with the practical reality of assault.
While you can't prove conclusively that porn has nothing to do with sexual assault (and you can't), you shouldn't fault those who believe it.
15
First - any proof of this?
Second - was it supposed to?
With thousands of confounding factors in human relationships and psychology, why assume that porn is the connection, anyway?
That's like saying romance novels are not having a positive impact on the divorce rate. Or potato chips are not having a positive impact on obesity.
The ONLY measurable harm with some porn is the same with every consumer commercialized product: Human exploitation.
Every other criticism is taste, point-of-view, and correlation-not-causation bullshit.
Porn moving into the mainstream doesn't seem to be having a positive impact on women's self-image and relationships.
First - any proof of this?
Second - was it supposed to?
With thousands of confounding factors in human relationships and psychology, why assume that porn is the connection, anyway?
That's like saying romance novels are not having a positive impact on the divorce rate. Or potato chips are not having a positive impact on obesity.
The ONLY measurable harm with some porn is the same with every consumer commercialized product: Human exploitation.
Every other criticism is taste, point-of-view, and correlation-not-causation bullshit.
16
Damn all those hordes of Genghis Khan and the Vikings ....
for reading Penthouse, which obviously gave them horrid ideas they then put into practice.
If only they couldn't read, or they didn't have photographers back in the ancient days, then there wouldn't have been all that raping, pillaging, castration, etc., etc., etc., ad nauseum.
If only I could go back in time .....
for reading Penthouse, which obviously gave them horrid ideas they then put into practice.
If only they couldn't read, or they didn't have photographers back in the ancient days, then there wouldn't have been all that raping, pillaging, castration, etc., etc., etc., ad nauseum.
If only I could go back in time .....
17
It would be difficult to find any sort of pornography marketed towards women with mainstream appeal. Truth is, women value men predominantly according to excess labor and resources they can bring to a relationship. This means they value men as "doers." It is no surprise women tend to find illustrations of men in action or of means--playing sports, working certain occupations, having nice things--attractive.
Women, by contrast are intrinsically valuable because they have a uterus. Unsurprisingly, men find illustrations of women in coitus or perhaps awaiting coitus as attractive.
Going a step further, every marriage traditionally, but covertly, has been essentially a trade. A woman rents the use of her uterus and ownership of offspring to a man for his resources and labor to support her and her offspring. Of course, the way divorce courts work these days, it is a poor transaction for the man. You're much better off just paying child support than paying child support *and* alimony.
Women, by contrast are intrinsically valuable because they have a uterus. Unsurprisingly, men find illustrations of women in coitus or perhaps awaiting coitus as attractive.
Going a step further, every marriage traditionally, but covertly, has been essentially a trade. A woman rents the use of her uterus and ownership of offspring to a man for his resources and labor to support her and her offspring. Of course, the way divorce courts work these days, it is a poor transaction for the man. You're much better off just paying child support than paying child support *and* alimony.
18
Dan, you should read "Female Chauvanist Pigs" by Ariel Levy if you actually want to learn about the ways in which porn culture has negatively impacted women (though I think you probably prefer to remain in denial).
I'm not sex negative in any way, and I think I've initiated more one night stands/been more sexually aggressive than your average woman, but I see the ways in which internet porn has impacted girls my younger sister's age (mid-20s), and it's fucking sad and undeniable. I watch porn, but I definitely think it's problematic for women.
Lena Dunham, the creator of "Girls," has also said that she thinks it's impacted the way guys of her generation relate to women, as well.
I'm not sex negative in any way, and I think I've initiated more one night stands/been more sexually aggressive than your average woman, but I see the ways in which internet porn has impacted girls my younger sister's age (mid-20s), and it's fucking sad and undeniable. I watch porn, but I definitely think it's problematic for women.
Lena Dunham, the creator of "Girls," has also said that she thinks it's impacted the way guys of her generation relate to women, as well.
19
@14 Ridiculous strawman.
Dan has never claimed porn is universally "totally benign." Because literally nothing is totally benign.
Dan has never claimed porn is universally "totally benign." Because literally nothing is totally benign.
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@12 Its about what's considered regular and mainstream.
Looking at traffic statistics, the top porn sites are aggregation sites where the primary draw is being FREE. The next highest category is cam sites, where the main draw is interaction the perfomer. Next probably is amateur/user submitted sites. Literotica ranks pretty high, as do several other story/erotica sites. Once you start getting to sites that produce their own content, you start seeing sites like Femjoy, FTVgirls, Abby Winters whose content is soft to mildly hardcore. Playboy and Penthouse are high, though probably more because of name recognition rather to a specific draw of their content. Kink.com stuff shows up high, which is BDSM done right, and not just an excuse to cause violence to women. All together, I think this demonstrates that "mainstream" and "regular" porn is not as violent and misogynistic as believed. Not that there isn't bad porn and porn producers (there's a lot), but it isn't as "mainstream" and popular as some would believe.
though perhaps my view is skewed because after morn than decade of porn consumption, I've learned to avoid the bad stuff.
Looking at traffic statistics, the top porn sites are aggregation sites where the primary draw is being FREE. The next highest category is cam sites, where the main draw is interaction the perfomer. Next probably is amateur/user submitted sites. Literotica ranks pretty high, as do several other story/erotica sites. Once you start getting to sites that produce their own content, you start seeing sites like Femjoy, FTVgirls, Abby Winters whose content is soft to mildly hardcore. Playboy and Penthouse are high, though probably more because of name recognition rather to a specific draw of their content. Kink.com stuff shows up high, which is BDSM done right, and not just an excuse to cause violence to women. All together, I think this demonstrates that "mainstream" and "regular" porn is not as violent and misogynistic as believed. Not that there isn't bad porn and porn producers (there's a lot), but it isn't as "mainstream" and popular as some would believe.
though perhaps my view is skewed because after morn than decade of porn consumption, I've learned to avoid the bad stuff.
21
@ 14, you can't prove a negative. Therefore your faith in the opposite is COMPLETELY ungrounded.
It's not incumbent on anyone to prove porn has NO connection to sexual assault because.... you can't prove a negative. Therefore, it IS incumbent on those alleging that there IS a connection to prove it. And if they go ahead and allege without that proof, then yes. Fault them. Because they are at fault.
We have the strong evidence that rape is decreasing while porn consumption is increasing. Conclusive? No, but it's a hell of a lot more than what you have.
It's not incumbent on anyone to prove porn has NO connection to sexual assault because.... you can't prove a negative. Therefore, it IS incumbent on those alleging that there IS a connection to prove it. And if they go ahead and allege without that proof, then yes. Fault them. Because they are at fault.
We have the strong evidence that rape is decreasing while porn consumption is increasing. Conclusive? No, but it's a hell of a lot more than what you have.
22
@18
" I see the ways in which internet porn has impacted girls my younger sister's age (mid-20s), and it's fucking sad and undeniable."
You could be right, but I'm curious to know what your specific observations have been.
" I see the ways in which internet porn has impacted girls my younger sister's age (mid-20s), and it's fucking sad and undeniable."
You could be right, but I'm curious to know what your specific observations have been.
24
@14: "While you can't prove conclusively that porn has nothing to do with sexual assault (and you can't), you shouldn't fault those who believe it."
You are a moron, and here's why: Dan provides us with a very good correlation betwixt access to porn and rates of sexual assault. This isn't definitive proof, sure, but it's sure as hell a lot harder to argue that porn PROMOTES sexual assault when access to porn increases, rates of sexual assault go down. Critical thinking isn't about waiting until we know everything, it's about making a decision with the best available information at the time, always trying to keep our minds open to change when new data comes in. So we get to call people silly and stupid who hold onto pet theories that don't explain the datain in the face better theories that seem to.
You are a moron, and here's why: Dan provides us with a very good correlation betwixt access to porn and rates of sexual assault. This isn't definitive proof, sure, but it's sure as hell a lot harder to argue that porn PROMOTES sexual assault when access to porn increases, rates of sexual assault go down. Critical thinking isn't about waiting until we know everything, it's about making a decision with the best available information at the time, always trying to keep our minds open to change when new data comes in. So we get to call people silly and stupid who hold onto pet theories that don't explain the datain in the face better theories that seem to.
25
Don't like gay sex? Don't have any.
Don't like premarital sex? Don't have any.
Don't like drugs? Don't do them.
Don't like alcohol? Don't drink it.
Don't like guns? Don't own any.
Don't like porn? Don't watch it.
Don't like church? Don't go.
Don't like something, anything, you're not required by law to do?
DON'T FUCKING DO IT.
There, have we finally cleared up this idiotic argument?
Don't like premarital sex? Don't have any.
Don't like drugs? Don't do them.
Don't like alcohol? Don't drink it.
Don't like guns? Don't own any.
Don't like porn? Don't watch it.
Don't like church? Don't go.
Don't like something, anything, you're not required by law to do?
DON'T FUCKING DO IT.
There, have we finally cleared up this idiotic argument?
27
Quoth @14
While you can't prove conclusively that porn has nothing to do with sexual assault (and you can't), you shouldn't fault those who believe it.I can't conclusively prove that Xenu did not attach dead souls to volcanos and then blow them up with B-52 bombers. But I sure as fuck find fault with those who believe it.
28
@25 Um, thanks for the irrelevant comment. The problem identified here is not doing a thing or not (watching porn), but whether porn use by people in general in society causes rape - e.g., where someone is made to do a thing and has no choice in the matter, rendering your list pointless.
Trying to change the whole discussion into an individual choice issue, where everyone is apparently floating freely on an island where no other people affect their choices, is tone-deaf.
Trying to change the whole discussion into an individual choice issue, where everyone is apparently floating freely on an island where no other people affect their choices, is tone-deaf.
29
@1 Cumshots are misogynistic. Thus twice as misogynist for gay porn. A feminist even told me men shouldn't cum on their own faces either because it's just as degrading.
It's just good old American puritanism disguised as progressivism.
It's just good old American puritanism disguised as progressivism.
30
Tristan Taormino makes feminist porn. I suggest Fluke take a look. She might even find something that *GASP* turns her on.
31
Okay, I hate the headline. Fluke was willing to be pilloried by Rush et al as part of an admirable campaign to shine a light on the appalling GOP/Bishopric attempt to legislate everyone's vagina. This did not mean she signed up as an expert on every other topic under the sun, nor did she sign up to be the liberal spokesperson on girl stuff.
And I take "I’ll let you know when I find any" to indicate her sincere lack of interest in poring through porn looking for some she finds pleasant, rather than a statement that she has done so.
I mean, I think Dan's Sci Am quote is important. I don't think moaning that someone who landed briefly in the spotlight on one related-to-sex issue is not being an exemplar on a completely different related-to-sex issue is a good frame for that point.
And I take "I’ll let you know when I find any" to indicate her sincere lack of interest in poring through porn looking for some she finds pleasant, rather than a statement that she has done so.
I mean, I think Dan's Sci Am quote is important. I don't think moaning that someone who landed briefly in the spotlight on one related-to-sex issue is not being an exemplar on a completely different related-to-sex issue is a good frame for that point.
32
@28. No, he's right in his basic way. More right than you.
We have people in this discussion, Fluke and the New York fucking Times, attempting to influence public policies, who have the ear of power, spreading bullshit that ultimately may effect our choices.
You only have right to impede a persons right to choose when you can PROVE a material harm resulted from the choice of that other person. That's how freedom works. Otherwise stay on your own island.
We have people in this discussion, Fluke and the New York fucking Times, attempting to influence public policies, who have the ear of power, spreading bullshit that ultimately may effect our choices.
You only have right to impede a persons right to choose when you can PROVE a material harm resulted from the choice of that other person. That's how freedom works. Otherwise stay on your own island.
33
@31 She seems to be implying in this interview that she'd be open to legislating other people vaginas and weeners herself.
Because Santorum's position on porn, that she says she AGREES with, is too make porn ILLEGAL. That's what he wants.
Sorry. I think Dan's framing is spot on.
Because Santorum's position on porn, that she says she AGREES with, is too make porn ILLEGAL. That's what he wants.
Sorry. I think Dan's framing is spot on.
34
@28: You farting in Seattle - or wherever you are - causes hurricanes off the coast of Florida. But I don't see Florida getting all up in your shit saying "Now wait a second, sahara29, your ass gas is causing serious problems for us. We're going to have to ask you to squeeze those cheeks."
Do you know why no one in Florida asks you to do that? Because no one in Florida can prove it's your ass gas causing hurricanes. Do you know why no one can prove it? Because the causal chain can't be measured. Just like no one can prove that watching porn causes sexual assault, given that with increased access to the internet and porn, assault rates continue to go down. It's not like where people driving drunk has a clear link to more people getting hit by cars. It literally cannot be proven. Just like your farts and hurricanes in Florida.
Do you know why else Florida doesn't make you put a non-lubed cork in your butt - assuming that's not your bag, of course? It's because your clear and Gods-given right to pass gas is more important than a hypothetical and completely unproven link from that to hurricanes. Likewise, my right to watch Lorelei Lee get tied up and fucked in every which way possible by 4 different guys - and, more importantly, the right shared by Lorelei Lee and those 4 guys to get PAID for doing it - is more important than a completely hypothetical, unproven, and unprovable link to sexual assault.
Ergo: Don't like porn? Don't fucking watch it.
Do you know why no one in Florida asks you to do that? Because no one in Florida can prove it's your ass gas causing hurricanes. Do you know why no one can prove it? Because the causal chain can't be measured. Just like no one can prove that watching porn causes sexual assault, given that with increased access to the internet and porn, assault rates continue to go down. It's not like where people driving drunk has a clear link to more people getting hit by cars. It literally cannot be proven. Just like your farts and hurricanes in Florida.
Do you know why else Florida doesn't make you put a non-lubed cork in your butt - assuming that's not your bag, of course? It's because your clear and Gods-given right to pass gas is more important than a hypothetical and completely unproven link from that to hurricanes. Likewise, my right to watch Lorelei Lee get tied up and fucked in every which way possible by 4 different guys - and, more importantly, the right shared by Lorelei Lee and those 4 guys to get PAID for doing it - is more important than a completely hypothetical, unproven, and unprovable link to sexual assault.
Ergo: Don't like porn? Don't fucking watch it.
35
Feminist woman takes a traditional feminist position. Shocking, I know…
@30 I second your recommendation.
@30 I second your recommendation.
36
You know, now that I think about it - and hey, who doesn't like an excuse to think about porn? Even those ranting against it enjoy thinking about it. It gets them wet\stiff to do so, you just know it does - I can probably prove that straight men watching porn is good for women. Or, at least, better for women than it is for men.
Method: Take any sample of straight men who admit to watching porn. Ask them to name, let's say, 6 to 10 stars who have acted in these movies. I will bet you an infinite amount of money a significant majority of them will come up with more female names than male names.
The women are people they want to fuck, whereas the men are just substitutes for their own cocks. So the women have personalities - quite possibly shallow and two dimensional ones, given the quality of most pornographic plotting, but personalities nonetheless - while the men? They're just meat.
Method: Take any sample of straight men who admit to watching porn. Ask them to name, let's say, 6 to 10 stars who have acted in these movies. I will bet you an infinite amount of money a significant majority of them will come up with more female names than male names.
The women are people they want to fuck, whereas the men are just substitutes for their own cocks. So the women have personalities - quite possibly shallow and two dimensional ones, given the quality of most pornographic plotting, but personalities nonetheless - while the men? They're just meat.
38
@33,
She neither states outright nor implies that she wants to outlaw any kind of porn. Fluke has a problem with porn that contains implied or outright violence. She calls it "problematic". That's it. Care to stop projecting your own fears onto her?
She neither states outright nor implies that she wants to outlaw any kind of porn. Fluke has a problem with porn that contains implied or outright violence. She calls it "problematic". That's it. Care to stop projecting your own fears onto her?
40
@37 Jesus.
Here is what #14 said:
Dan never said it. Because literally nothing in the universe is 100% benign. Okay. It's a strawman argument putting words in Dan's mouth.
And Dan may have said that porn CAN be beneficial. Or perhaps that porn is more beneficial than detrimental. What the fuck ever.
But that is far cry from the claims of #14 and his/her misleading statement.
And definitely a far cry from the complete fabrication said with such certainty that "porn causes (or in #14's dumb claim, is ) sexual assault."
Here is what #14 said:
Dan, I know you'd love to believe that porn is totally benign and everything about it should be celebrated, but that's just not true.
Dan never said it. Because literally nothing in the universe is 100% benign. Okay. It's a strawman argument putting words in Dan's mouth.
And Dan may have said that porn CAN be beneficial. Or perhaps that porn is more beneficial than detrimental. What the fuck ever.
But that is far cry from the claims of #14 and his/her misleading statement.
And definitely a far cry from the complete fabrication said with such certainty that "porn causes (or in #14's dumb claim, is ) sexual assault."
41
It may just be me but I don't really see much porn consisting of assault or rape, especially on the major sites.
42
@33
BZZZZZT. Wrong. Nope.
I quote Fluke:
"Congratulations on finding a position that Rick Santorum and I agree upon."
Did she not say that? Yes, she did.
And here is quote by Senator Santorum from the SAME erroneous statement he made about porn "contributing to sexual assault" to which Fluke and NYT are referring:
Now. Until she refutes THAT statement, we should assume that she is agreeing with the entire statement he made outlining his promised "policy" on porn that she states clearly she agrees with.
And I have no fear. None at all. She, you, and Santorum, are fighting a battle that was lost decades ago.
BZZZZZT. Wrong. Nope.
I quote Fluke:
"Congratulations on finding a position that Rick Santorum and I agree upon."
Did she not say that? Yes, she did.
And here is quote by Senator Santorum from the SAME erroneous statement he made about porn "contributing to sexual assault" to which Fluke and NYT are referring:
“Current federal ‘obscenity’ laws prohibit distribution of hardcore (obscene) pornography on the Internet, on cable/satellite TV, on hotel/motel TV, in retail shops and through the mail or by common carrier,” Santorum wrote in the statement, adding that these laws should be “vigorously enforced.
Now. Until she refutes THAT statement, we should assume that she is agreeing with the entire statement he made outlining his promised "policy" on porn that she states clearly she agrees with.
And I have no fear. None at all. She, you, and Santorum, are fighting a battle that was lost decades ago.
43
@39: It is. And you know what? It's nice. Life would be much simpler if we all stopped worrying so much about what the fuck everyone else was doing, especially when you can't prove any harm in it.
44
@15, http://powertochange.com/blogposts/2010/…
The average age a boy first views pornography is now 11. A study from 2003 that found that in 56% of divorces one partner was a habitual user of pornography.
The average age a boy first views pornography is now 11. A study from 2003 that found that in 56% of divorces one partner was a habitual user of pornography.
45
In April, we had the seventh annual feminist porn awards here in Toronto. I'm going to email the folks that run it and see if they want to send Fluke the list of the winners.
46
Quote @44:
"A study from 2003 that found that in 56% of divorces one partner was a habitual user of pornography."Learn2science. That proves nothing absent the base rate. For instance, if in 80% of marriages at least one partner is a habitual user of pornography-- which is not an unreasonable statistic-- then the "non-porn" couples are significantly overrepresented among divorces.
47
I don't watch porn myself, and while I don't begrudge anyone else their enjoyment of it, I do think it's a bit naive and idealistic to believe that the prevalence of porn in our society has had absolutely no impact on the way men perceive women, or that any potential impact it's had has been totally positive. A lot of ink has been spilled on this subject, and a lot of guys have spoken candidly about the effect of porn on their relationships.
http://nymag.com/news/features/70976/
http://nymag.com/news/features/70976/
48
@44
What's the percentage of healthy marriages where one partner is a "habitual" user of porn? I'd say that number will be pretty high as well.
What's the percentage of healthy marriages where one partner is a "habitual" user of porn? I'd say that number will be pretty high as well.
49
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2…
"In a recent study, 80% of men said that the one sex act they would most like to perform is to ejaculate on a woman's face . . . .
Sexual assault centres in US colleges have said that more women are reporting anal rape, which Dines attributes directly to the normalisation of such practices in pornography. "The more porn sexualises violence against women, the more it normalises and legitimises sexually abusive behaviour. Men learn about sex from porn . . . . with almost 14m internet searches for "teen sex" in 2006, an increase of more than 60% since 2004. There are legal sites that feature hardcore images of extremely young-looking women being penetrated by older men, with disclaimers stating all the models are 18 and over.
Violet Blue, had launched a pro-porn campaign to counteract an anti-porn conference that Dines and colleagues held last month."
"In a recent study, 80% of men said that the one sex act they would most like to perform is to ejaculate on a woman's face . . . .
Sexual assault centres in US colleges have said that more women are reporting anal rape, which Dines attributes directly to the normalisation of such practices in pornography. "The more porn sexualises violence against women, the more it normalises and legitimises sexually abusive behaviour. Men learn about sex from porn . . . . with almost 14m internet searches for "teen sex" in 2006, an increase of more than 60% since 2004. There are legal sites that feature hardcore images of extremely young-looking women being penetrated by older men, with disclaimers stating all the models are 18 and over.
Violet Blue, had launched a pro-porn campaign to counteract an anti-porn conference that Dines and colleagues held last month."
50
@46: Nor does it say that it's an accurate number rather than oh, say, one divorcee saying shitty things about the other.
51
I love that this article acknowledges the difference between correlation and causation. Both increased access to porn and decreased levels of sexual crime were probably the result of a third factor, like a modern view of sex and gender relationships.
On the same line, though, didn't sexual activity increase by a lot after the pill came out? AREN'T the two of them closely associated?
As for "Does abortion cause cancer," yes it's a lie if someone says it now, but it was a legitimate question, just like "Do vaccines cause autism?" was a legitimate question. But after dozens of studies in the U.S. and U.K. the a/BC "link" it's also an answered question.
On the same line, though, didn't sexual activity increase by a lot after the pill came out? AREN'T the two of them closely associated?
As for "Does abortion cause cancer," yes it's a lie if someone says it now, but it was a legitimate question, just like "Do vaccines cause autism?" was a legitimate question. But after dozens of studies in the U.S. and U.K. the a/BC "link" it's also an answered question.
52
@44
I'm what they call an outlier, I started at 9 ;)
Also hit puberty at 8 so I was an extremely horny 9 year old, so I guess that's an excuse.
Oh, and even after all those years I am in a very healthy relationship without any extreme expectations from my partner because I had the wherewithal to know porn is fiction (also reading Savage Love since high school).
That's how you solve rape, make Dan Savage mandatory in schools.
I'm what they call an outlier, I started at 9 ;)
Also hit puberty at 8 so I was an extremely horny 9 year old, so I guess that's an excuse.
Oh, and even after all those years I am in a very healthy relationship without any extreme expectations from my partner because I had the wherewithal to know porn is fiction (also reading Savage Love since high school).
That's how you solve rape, make Dan Savage mandatory in schools.
53
@46 and 48, imagine it's a question of what's acceptable to your partner. Some people consider it cheating. That seems extreme to me, but since I'm married to one of them, I need to understand it.
54
@47 I would certainly agree that porn affects the way its viewers think of women, but that wasn't the question raised in the interview. The question was whether porn causes or exacerbates sexual violence.
If the question is "Is porn in poor taste?" "Does porn feature the objectification of men and women?" and "Does porn feature potentially or actually unhealthy relationships?" then you might get a different answer.
@49 So, of the women who are assaulted, the percentage of them who are violated anally is higher than it was. But is the total number of assaults higher or lower than it used to be?
If the question is "Is porn in poor taste?" "Does porn feature the objectification of men and women?" and "Does porn feature potentially or actually unhealthy relationships?" then you might get a different answer.
@49 So, of the women who are assaulted, the percentage of them who are violated anally is higher than it was. But is the total number of assaults higher or lower than it used to be?
55
@53
You're partner has insecurity issues. Are you allowed to touch yourself without them present? You might just be cheating on them with yourself!
You're partner has insecurity issues. Are you allowed to touch yourself without them present? You might just be cheating on them with yourself!
56
@44 Oh my god, no! 56% of people who got divorced were habitual users of porn! NO!
You know what else? 100% of people who got divorced breathed oxygen! Oxygen causes divorce!
Also, and hold on to your hat, 100% of people who got divorced last year lived on planet Earth!
Again, nobody claims pornography might not effect some people negatively. Just like wine. Beer. Food. There are ways to consume stuff you like in ways that might also harm you. This is not controversial.
But apparently it's mostly things tangentially related to sexuality, and these days male sexuality specifically, that get's people so worked up. And such little proof of that harm's connection to porn. And that's because, as liberated and liberal people claim to be in America, we are still fucked up and puritanical about sex. It simply takes a new self-righteous form every few decades. Instead of Baptists and Catholics raging about sex, now it's under the well intentioned guise of misguided feminism. Same shit. Different day.
in 56% of divorces one partner was a habitual user of pornography.
@44 Oh my god, no! 56% of people who got divorced were habitual users of porn! NO!
You know what else? 100% of people who got divorced breathed oxygen! Oxygen causes divorce!
Also, and hold on to your hat, 100% of people who got divorced last year lived on planet Earth!
Again, nobody claims pornography might not effect some people negatively. Just like wine. Beer. Food. There are ways to consume stuff you like in ways that might also harm you. This is not controversial.
But apparently it's mostly things tangentially related to sexuality, and these days male sexuality specifically, that get's people so worked up. And such little proof of that harm's connection to porn. And that's because, as liberated and liberal people claim to be in America, we are still fucked up and puritanical about sex. It simply takes a new self-righteous form every few decades. Instead of Baptists and Catholics raging about sex, now it's under the well intentioned guise of misguided feminism. Same shit. Different day.
57
@47 - the NY Mag article anecdotally reinforces the idea that access to porn reduces a man's need to meet his sexual desires elsewhere. It makes complete sense. When sexual tension builds up, men get agitated, angry, would do anything to get a release. Once you ejaculate, those thoughts go away. Heck, every time I think about hiring a sex worker, I pull my goalie, and the minute after I cum I realize what a stupid idea that was.
Now, if you buy into the idea that sexual assault is not about sex, but about power or whatever, then you can make the leap of violent porn = rape. On the other hand, if you understand that a drained penis is less likely to do something illegal/stupid, then porn can be a solution to the problem.
Now, if you buy into the idea that sexual assault is not about sex, but about power or whatever, then you can make the leap of violent porn = rape. On the other hand, if you understand that a drained penis is less likely to do something illegal/stupid, then porn can be a solution to the problem.
58
#22, Well, obviously my examples are purely anecdotal, but I'm 37, and when I was in high school, porn was all VHS and magazines. It was harder for teen boys to obtain, and the usage was harder to hide from parents. The women in the porns at that time were not of the "Girls Gone Wild" or "slutty teen" variety. Most of the women looked older, none of them looked punk or alternative or cool in any way, and teen girls did not see themselves represented in porn stars. We really were not influenced by porn. We did not try to dress or look like male fantasy fuck objects.
We WERE definitely experimenting with sex and sexuality. I figured out how to orgasm at 13 with my girlfriends, years before I ever wanted to give a dude a blow job. When we tried to impress guys, it was through having cool taste in music or being skater girls or playing guitar. Things were really equal for us. When I made out with guys, I was as physically stimulated as the guy was or I lost interest in him. Our role models were our older sisters in college who were DJ's and art students. We wanted to be like Kim Deal or Kim Gordon or the girls from Lush.
For my younger sister, though, a lot of that changed. Her male friends were watching tons of internet porn featuring girls who looked their age, were punk but with model hot bodies and boob jobs and waxed vaginas. My sister's friends started imitating that style, wearing skirts barely covering their asses, and "sexy, fuckable girl" became like an actual identity for them. Their role models were Suicide Girls and burlesque dancers, and playing at being porny became this form of rebellion, whereas for my friends, it was about smoking pot and going to hardcore shows. For them, it has become so much about physicality. They consider it expressing their sexuality, but the stuff they're doing totally revolves around pleasuring the guy. A lot of my sister's friends haven't even figured out how to orgasm yet.
I'm no fucking scientist, but I know lots of girls in their 20s through my sister, and I've seen such a huge generational change.
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We WERE definitely experimenting with sex and sexuality. I figured out how to orgasm at 13 with my girlfriends, years before I ever wanted to give a dude a blow job. When we tried to impress guys, it was through having cool taste in music or being skater girls or playing guitar. Things were really equal for us. When I made out with guys, I was as physically stimulated as the guy was or I lost interest in him. Our role models were our older sisters in college who were DJ's and art students. We wanted to be like Kim Deal or Kim Gordon or the girls from Lush.
For my younger sister, though, a lot of that changed. Her male friends were watching tons of internet porn featuring girls who looked their age, were punk but with model hot bodies and boob jobs and waxed vaginas. My sister's friends started imitating that style, wearing skirts barely covering their asses, and "sexy, fuckable girl" became like an actual identity for them. Their role models were Suicide Girls and burlesque dancers, and playing at being porny became this form of rebellion, whereas for my friends, it was about smoking pot and going to hardcore shows. For them, it has become so much about physicality. They consider it expressing their sexuality, but the stuff they're doing totally revolves around pleasuring the guy. A lot of my sister's friends haven't even figured out how to orgasm yet.
I'm no fucking scientist, but I know lots of girls in their 20s through my sister, and I've seen such a huge generational change.
59
54, 57 -- I don't agree with the idea that porn incites sexual assault. I was just responding to the numerous comments above suggesting that porn doesn't harm anyone in general, and that anyone who raises any concerns about the effects of porn is a sex-negative prude who should just stop watching it.
60
@58, it's not hard to make that connection, unless you're some whackoff king in the Slog comments (so expect a lot of feedback). It is the ultimate bleeding heart liberal bullshit to be on here defending porn on anything more than a first amendment basis.
61
As a woman who enjoys being submissive, I have found Kink.com to be a fabulous place to get a bit of a BDSM fix. Not only are the videos fairly well done and the people, especially some of the men, are quite attractive, but they show the women afterward, often with some or all of the men, laughing about how awesome the experience was for them.
I know to Sandra it seems like abuse and I'm sure she is horrified that some women like being treated that way during sex, but for some of us, it turns our crank. What can I say? I like being spanked, having my hair pulled, etc. That doesn't make me bad, dirty or wrong, or even less of a feminist. It just excites me.
Perhaps, it excites her as well? Maybe she's a closeted submissive who is horrified that she gets turned on by such things so she labels it all as abuse and wrong? I'm an independent, feminist woman and it took me about 10 years to get over the fact that I enjoy being submissive during sex (but only during sex). Maybe she's a self-hating submissive?
Either way, porn is like any other thing - it's only "bad" because of how we produce and/or use it. I enjoy watching BDSM with the woman being submissive, but only when I know they are getting off on it themselves. I'm aware that some porn out there may be women actually being abused and that I will not support or endorse. As somebody who enjoys this type of porn, I consider it my responsibility to only patronize sites where I know the woman is not actually being abused or harmed, such as Kink.com.
I know to Sandra it seems like abuse and I'm sure she is horrified that some women like being treated that way during sex, but for some of us, it turns our crank. What can I say? I like being spanked, having my hair pulled, etc. That doesn't make me bad, dirty or wrong, or even less of a feminist. It just excites me.
Perhaps, it excites her as well? Maybe she's a closeted submissive who is horrified that she gets turned on by such things so she labels it all as abuse and wrong? I'm an independent, feminist woman and it took me about 10 years to get over the fact that I enjoy being submissive during sex (but only during sex). Maybe she's a self-hating submissive?
Either way, porn is like any other thing - it's only "bad" because of how we produce and/or use it. I enjoy watching BDSM with the woman being submissive, but only when I know they are getting off on it themselves. I'm aware that some porn out there may be women actually being abused and that I will not support or endorse. As somebody who enjoys this type of porn, I consider it my responsibility to only patronize sites where I know the woman is not actually being abused or harmed, such as Kink.com.
62
As for the correlation indicating that countries with more access to porn have lower sexual assault rates, one must remember that correlation does not mean causation. Perhaps porn is an outlet for some men who might otherwise rape without it, or perhaps countries that are open enough to allow porn are mostly Western countries which have lower reported sexual assault rates than those countries which prohibit porn?
There are plenty of other possibilities for why this correlation exists, but I did note that we are talking about reported sexual assaults. As most of us should know, many rapes are never reported, so it's unclear as to how many actual rapes are occurring. This could also somehow play a role in this correlation.
That being said, the fact that this correlation does show a decrease in sexual assaults in countries that are more open to porn certainly doesn't support the idea that porn causes sexual assault. But it is only the first step. More research needs to be done to study the nature of this correlation and possible causes for it before we can say for certain whether or not porn has a positive or negative effect on sexual assault rates.
There are plenty of other possibilities for why this correlation exists, but I did note that we are talking about reported sexual assaults. As most of us should know, many rapes are never reported, so it's unclear as to how many actual rapes are occurring. This could also somehow play a role in this correlation.
That being said, the fact that this correlation does show a decrease in sexual assaults in countries that are more open to porn certainly doesn't support the idea that porn causes sexual assault. But it is only the first step. More research needs to be done to study the nature of this correlation and possible causes for it before we can say for certain whether or not porn has a positive or negative effect on sexual assault rates.
63
Regarding the effect porn may be having on young women and their body images, I would submit that popular culture has a MUCH strong influence in that regard than porn. By the time a girl/woman finally does see any form of porn, she has already been told thousands of times by the popular magazines, TV shows, and other media that she needs to be stick thin and have no body hair at all. The idea that porn is somehow to blame for the body issues women have in our culture is like blaming one drop of water for the damage done to New Orleans by Hurricane Katrina.
64
@58
See, I don't necessarily blame porn for their lack of orgasms, or causing them to focus on making the guy orgasm, and certainly some women were without orgasms prior to the conception of internet porn. You could just as easily, and more appropriately, say that its just the culture of their generation (much like in the 50's). Make them read Savage Love, help them realize that they should get off too and, in doing so, try to have a broader conceptualization of sexuality and openness. I've had gf's who were like that and they certainly had orgasms. Hell, for some, getting off was a deal breaker!
See, I don't necessarily blame porn for their lack of orgasms, or causing them to focus on making the guy orgasm, and certainly some women were without orgasms prior to the conception of internet porn. You could just as easily, and more appropriately, say that its just the culture of their generation (much like in the 50's). Make them read Savage Love, help them realize that they should get off too and, in doing so, try to have a broader conceptualization of sexuality and openness. I've had gf's who were like that and they certainly had orgasms. Hell, for some, getting off was a deal breaker!
65
@53: Then your wife is insecure. And it's not about "what's acceptable to your partner"; it's about "what's acceptable to your partner within reason."
For instance, if I thought talking to a guy was a step away from cheating, and thus forbid my wife from having conversations with men outside of my presence, I would rightly be labeled a controlling asshole. Or Saudi Arabian. I doubt folks would be arguing that my wife needs to "understand my position"; they'd be telling her to DTMFA.
Same thing with a spouse that prohibits porn, assuming you're fulfilling your spousal duties.
For instance, if I thought talking to a guy was a step away from cheating, and thus forbid my wife from having conversations with men outside of my presence, I would rightly be labeled a controlling asshole. Or Saudi Arabian. I doubt folks would be arguing that my wife needs to "understand my position"; they'd be telling her to DTMFA.
Same thing with a spouse that prohibits porn, assuming you're fulfilling your spousal duties.
67
@17, I'm not sure where you get your idea that women make out better than men in divorces because there are several studies out there that show that after a divorce, men tend to do much better financially than women. In fact, divorce is one of the risk factors for women being in poverty, especially if she is the primary caregiver to a child, but it is not a risk factor for men.
Here is the link to an article about one such study: http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2….
Here is the link to an article about one such study: http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2….
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@58 - Good Lord. I can buy that girls feel pressure now that they don't, and some pressures that they definitely shouldn't. But please don't try to sell us on returning to the sexual ethos of the asexual early-90s punk/indie culture you reference, when any urge whatsoever that you had as a straight dude was a sign of the inherent evil within you.
Fuck that era. Aside from the music.
Fuck that era. Aside from the music.
70
That is not what people are saying. Nobody has made the claim that consuming porn can't have negative consequences. Just like drinking or eating too much, anything to excess, is bound to have unintended consequences.
What the we are saying is you have no proof as to WHAT the specific negative effects of porn actually ARE to society.
People are claiming porn is causing everything from divorce and slutty fashions to acne. But they have no proof. Only anecdotes
The irony here is that people are using a "Correlation Not Causation" argument to attempt to refute Dan's point about societies that have ready access to porn having lower sexual assault, while then turning around and making ridiculous claims thoroughly ignoring the same "Correlation Not Causation" arguments to support their claims.
There is plenty in porn I find disgusting. But that is mostly a matter of taste. People get the most upset when talking about matters of taste. Just go to a music forum. Taste arguments fuck with perceived identity. Ultimately though it' irrelevant. And 90% of people's problems with porn are matter of taste.
I worry much more about exploitation of porn performers than I do anything else. That I can prove. That I can prevent. All this other shit? Bullshit until you can prove something.
People are unhappy— they drink. They eat. Or maybe. They watch a lot of porn. Maybe some of that contributes to a divorce or failed relationship. And? People being unhappy is root the problem.
People are unhappy about their body image, so they imitate the images around them, healthy and unhealthy, they view as successful or popular. Deal with the unhappiness. Educate them about healthy body image. But people like Fluke need to drop the judgements and insecure speculating about the causes just because they appeal to a worldview.
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and that anyone who raises any concerns about the effects of porn is a sex-negative prude who should just stop watching it.
That is not what people are saying. Nobody has made the claim that consuming porn can't have negative consequences. Just like drinking or eating too much, anything to excess, is bound to have unintended consequences.
What the we are saying is you have no proof as to WHAT the specific negative effects of porn actually ARE to society.
People are claiming porn is causing everything from divorce and slutty fashions to acne. But they have no proof. Only anecdotes
The irony here is that people are using a "Correlation Not Causation" argument to attempt to refute Dan's point about societies that have ready access to porn having lower sexual assault, while then turning around and making ridiculous claims thoroughly ignoring the same "Correlation Not Causation" arguments to support their claims.
There is plenty in porn I find disgusting. But that is mostly a matter of taste. People get the most upset when talking about matters of taste. Just go to a music forum. Taste arguments fuck with perceived identity. Ultimately though it' irrelevant. And 90% of people's problems with porn are matter of taste.
I worry much more about exploitation of porn performers than I do anything else. That I can prove. That I can prevent. All this other shit? Bullshit until you can prove something.
People are unhappy— they drink. They eat. Or maybe. They watch a lot of porn. Maybe some of that contributes to a divorce or failed relationship. And? People being unhappy is root the problem.
People are unhappy about their body image, so they imitate the images around them, healthy and unhealthy, they view as successful or popular. Deal with the unhappiness. Educate them about healthy body image. But people like Fluke need to drop the judgements and insecure speculating about the causes just because they appeal to a worldview.
71
I'm all for different porn for different people but porn with a political agenda attached sounds about as arousing as christian rock is exciting
I'll take the porn leads to rape and violence argument seriously as soon as I find myself out there raping someone.
I'll take the porn leads to rape and violence argument seriously as soon as I find myself out there raping someone.
73
@70 -- No, some people were saying that. Go back and read the comments. Anyway, I agree with you that porn doesn't incite sexual violence. We're on the same page with that.
74
anyone who raises any concerns about the effects of porn is a sex-negative prude who should just stop watching it.
I agree with this.
75
@74 -- Lol, exactly. Just watch porn and like it or don't watch it and shut up. Whatever you do, don't apply any critical thinking to what you see on the screen.
76
@58: Your sister's experience is not the cosmos. For example, think of how you're coming into contact with all these twenty-somethings: through your sister. Who models herself after a Suicide Girl. Don't you think you're more likely to meet girls like her if you're meeting them through your sister?
Just as skating and indie-rock culture was not the monolithic culture of your generation, the Suicide Girls are not the monolithic culture of mine. Also, I think the whole "skirts that barely cover their asses" thing is much more pop stars and models than porn-related. Seriously, how many damn clothes do the Suicide Girls wear? Now look at Britney Spears music videos.
The vast majority of my generation does dress "slutty", but I blame my generation's parents more than I blame porn. My mother told me that wearing a miniskirt and high heels made me look like a streetwalker in middle school. Not everyone got that memo.
Also, your whole experimenting with friends thing at age 13? That didn't happen with my generation because we knew that our friends had the potential to be lesbians. Even if we weren't homophobic, it seemed inappropriate to have orgasms with anyone at that age because they might be attracted to us.
I have noticed that people of my generation have been affected by porn, but in small, undramatic ways. Also, I've mostly noticed it in men, since they are the main consumers of porn. Men are surprised when sex is awkward. Men believe their penises to be too short. Men believe most women can deep-throat. Men think of facials as hot without thinking that it might be degrading. Men expect shaved pussy. Porn is certainly to blame for all of that. But they think all of that as virgins. Ultimately, I don't think porn really has a negative effect on people other than making porn-watchers think they know a lot more about sex than they actually do.
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Just as skating and indie-rock culture was not the monolithic culture of your generation, the Suicide Girls are not the monolithic culture of mine. Also, I think the whole "skirts that barely cover their asses" thing is much more pop stars and models than porn-related. Seriously, how many damn clothes do the Suicide Girls wear? Now look at Britney Spears music videos.
The vast majority of my generation does dress "slutty", but I blame my generation's parents more than I blame porn. My mother told me that wearing a miniskirt and high heels made me look like a streetwalker in middle school. Not everyone got that memo.
Also, your whole experimenting with friends thing at age 13? That didn't happen with my generation because we knew that our friends had the potential to be lesbians. Even if we weren't homophobic, it seemed inappropriate to have orgasms with anyone at that age because they might be attracted to us.
I have noticed that people of my generation have been affected by porn, but in small, undramatic ways. Also, I've mostly noticed it in men, since they are the main consumers of porn. Men are surprised when sex is awkward. Men believe their penises to be too short. Men believe most women can deep-throat. Men think of facials as hot without thinking that it might be degrading. Men expect shaved pussy. Porn is certainly to blame for all of that. But they think all of that as virgins. Ultimately, I don't think porn really has a negative effect on people other than making porn-watchers think they know a lot more about sex than they actually do.
77
@65, I don't think it's cheating, but it's not beyond reason to object to your spouse whacking off to videos of other women on the Internet.
78
"There is no feminist porn" is something that people who are too disgusted with what they think porn is to actually watch any say, and rather like when people who don't know any gay men decry the terrible pathologies of "the gay lifestyle" based solely on their own fevered imaginings, it's a tremendous lie and actually worsens the very real problems that they're misperceiving.
There is a lot of exploitative, gross porn out there. Historically most porn has been misogynistic, passively if not in many cases outright. The mainstream porn industry is still pretty heavily burdened with attitudes and practices that are bad for all of its performers and consumers and for our sexual culture as a whole. However, by denying the relatively new but by now very substantial independent and feminist porn movement, you only cede the market to the bad stuff.
Still, Sandra Fluke is young. Her heart's in the right place and you can't fault her for being thrust into the national spotlight before she'd had the benefit of more years of life to learn about this stuff; and you definitely can't fault her for going somewhat militant about her feminism after the way the national dialogue treated her.
And honestly, her quote didn't strike me as rabidly anti-porn to begin with. One might generously interpret it as a combination of disgust with mainstream porn's many, many problems coupled with an admission of her own relative naivete regarding alternative porn.
There is a lot of exploitative, gross porn out there. Historically most porn has been misogynistic, passively if not in many cases outright. The mainstream porn industry is still pretty heavily burdened with attitudes and practices that are bad for all of its performers and consumers and for our sexual culture as a whole. However, by denying the relatively new but by now very substantial independent and feminist porn movement, you only cede the market to the bad stuff.
Still, Sandra Fluke is young. Her heart's in the right place and you can't fault her for being thrust into the national spotlight before she'd had the benefit of more years of life to learn about this stuff; and you definitely can't fault her for going somewhat militant about her feminism after the way the national dialogue treated her.
And honestly, her quote didn't strike me as rabidly anti-porn to begin with. One might generously interpret it as a combination of disgust with mainstream porn's many, many problems coupled with an admission of her own relative naivete regarding alternative porn.
79
Well said, @76.
An anecdote supporting your "porn makes virgins think they know sex" point: One of my younger cousins, when sufficiently drunk, will tell the story of his first sexual experience. It began as awkwardly as most first sex is, but ended with him pulling out and cumming on her face. Because that's how he thought sex ended. Because he watched a lot of porn.
Let's just say the girl was not amused.
An anecdote supporting your "porn makes virgins think they know sex" point: One of my younger cousins, when sufficiently drunk, will tell the story of his first sexual experience. It began as awkwardly as most first sex is, but ended with him pulling out and cumming on her face. Because that's how he thought sex ended. Because he watched a lot of porn.
Let's just say the girl was not amused.
80
I'm curious as to why near a quarter of the comments here imply that certain sex acts are just intrinsically degrading? Especially where you ejaculate! It's so porny! Appearantly context and consent no longer exists.
You realize that until very recently doggy style sex was considered profane and oral sex deviant. In fact even more recently I recall reading on these here internets about how women should give blow jobs in only feminist approved fashion-- "not on your knees, no, not with him standing, no grabbing her head, boys!"
Is there some committee we should submit all our sexual preferences through, so as to not be considered evil and do it the "right way?" and here I thought it was between me and my partner and what they like. Nope. Some stuff it's just too icky and degrading.
You realize that until very recently doggy style sex was considered profane and oral sex deviant. In fact even more recently I recall reading on these here internets about how women should give blow jobs in only feminist approved fashion-- "not on your knees, no, not with him standing, no grabbing her head, boys!"
Is there some committee we should submit all our sexual preferences through, so as to not be considered evil and do it the "right way?" and here I thought it was between me and my partner and what they like. Nope. Some stuff it's just too icky and degrading.
82
@80: Next, you'll be expecting feminists to offer support for their positions besides anecdotes and poorly designed studies. You're clearly a brainwashed pawn of the patriarchy.
83
@80 They're puritans. But since they're also progressives, they need to find some rationalization to justify their reactionary attitude.
84
@ Why are the men in hetero porn so ugly? It is a serious turn-off. Maybe Pink Visual just has ugly dudes.
86
Don't worry guys. The evil, puritanical feminists can't take your porn away, because, let's be honest, it's a man world, and all the sex-hating ladies out there don't have the power to make it happen.
87
The point really isn't whether or not feminist porn exists, or what that might even mean. The point is that most of the porn that I've seen (het) men go apeshit over does Absolutely. Nothing. For. Me. Generally, not even something I'd want to try in real life. For gods sake, the women in it either look bored to death, or really don't look like they're enjoying it one bit. So it's certainly not being produced for my enjoyment -- why should I like it? I also feel like a lot of times it gives men unrealistic expectations of what het sex should be like, and I don't care for that.
And yes, there's other forms of sexual entertainment (porn lit) that I much prefer. (And yes, there's a lot of sludge in those to plod thru to find good stuff. And yes, it's arguble that some of this stuff gives het women unrealistic notions of what sex is about) I acknowledge all that (and mind you, I don't think we need to legislate porn -- apart from over 18 yadda yadda -- or anything like that).
I love what I've heard of HUMP (though I have yet to manage to book it up to Portland or Seattle to see it), but y'all have to admit, that's most certainly not mainstream porn.
As for the notion that gay porn somehow hurts women, I'd have to say... HUH? Yikes. Tear into that one all you like.
And yes, there's other forms of sexual entertainment (porn lit) that I much prefer. (And yes, there's a lot of sludge in those to plod thru to find good stuff. And yes, it's arguble that some of this stuff gives het women unrealistic notions of what sex is about) I acknowledge all that (and mind you, I don't think we need to legislate porn -- apart from over 18 yadda yadda -- or anything like that).
I love what I've heard of HUMP (though I have yet to manage to book it up to Portland or Seattle to see it), but y'all have to admit, that's most certainly not mainstream porn.
As for the notion that gay porn somehow hurts women, I'd have to say... HUH? Yikes. Tear into that one all you like.
88
Before you all congratulate yourselves on the benefits of porn, there are also studies that show some men are incapable of entering into relationships because of an addiction to porn. Let's be honest and admit that there is good and bad when it comes to porn.
89
@84 (why men in het-porn so ugly) not all hetero porn but a lot of it.
It may go against feminist preconceptions but professional hetero-porn actually objectifies men more.
As a hetero man all I want to see visually is the entire woman (including her face/reactions/mood) and a cock (or multiple cocks depending on the mood).
I don't care about the male actors at all. I don't want to see his face. I don't want to see his asshole except in the rare cases where she's doing something interesting to it.
I want to forget as much as possible that the man is even there...making his oversized-novelty cock mine I guess would be the psychology behind it.
Shit, if we could just greenscreen his body out and just leave the fuck-parts I'd be happy thinking she's going to town with the world's most realistic, floating dildo.
Oddly enough I don't have the same problem with unprofessional, home-made porn.
I guess because it's real (or appears real) I find it kind of nice to see them as a whole people getting it on. I'm grateful for their peak into their sex life and am actually a bit interested in them as human beings.
It may go against feminist preconceptions but professional hetero-porn actually objectifies men more.
As a hetero man all I want to see visually is the entire woman (including her face/reactions/mood) and a cock (or multiple cocks depending on the mood).
I don't care about the male actors at all. I don't want to see his face. I don't want to see his asshole except in the rare cases where she's doing something interesting to it.
I want to forget as much as possible that the man is even there...making his oversized-novelty cock mine I guess would be the psychology behind it.
Shit, if we could just greenscreen his body out and just leave the fuck-parts I'd be happy thinking she's going to town with the world's most realistic, floating dildo.
Oddly enough I don't have the same problem with unprofessional, home-made porn.
I guess because it's real (or appears real) I find it kind of nice to see them as a whole people getting it on. I'm grateful for their peak into their sex life and am actually a bit interested in them as human beings.
90
The point is that most of the porn that I've seen (het) men go apeshit over does Absolutely. Nothing. For. Me.
That's not a point at all. I don't think you understand what pornography is. It's gratification, not social justice. I don't like guro, so I don't read it. I don't complain that it's not for me. There's plenty of porn for everybody.
addiction to porn
lol
>implying that's a real thing
91
@85 Santorum has made it clear that he wants to protect all of the poor defenseless womens out there by making sure they can't fight in front line combat, nor will their virginal ears be sullied by porn OR sex education (which are pretty much the same thing amirite?)
Once they get home and in the kitchen though, well, Jeebus told us that they need to submit and start making babies. Even if it threatens their lives (unless you happen to be married to Santorum that is).
(/sarcasm) But yeah, porn is awsome. If Santorum agreed with me on any aspect of sexuality it would make me feel icky.
Once they get home and in the kitchen though, well, Jeebus told us that they need to submit and start making babies. Even if it threatens their lives (unless you happen to be married to Santorum that is).
(/sarcasm) But yeah, porn is awsome. If Santorum agreed with me on any aspect of sexuality it would make me feel icky.
92
@87:
Sounds like your data set is far too tiny to draw conclusions from. There is much I dislike (though probably not as much as you dislike it) about a lot of porn, but there's still tons to choose from. If you want to find porn you like, it's easier than ever in this day and age. If, however, you really have no interest in the stuff, then please refrain from global generalizations based on your very limited experience.
... most of the porn that I've seen ...
Sounds like your data set is far too tiny to draw conclusions from. There is much I dislike (though probably not as much as you dislike it) about a lot of porn, but there's still tons to choose from. If you want to find porn you like, it's easier than ever in this day and age. If, however, you really have no interest in the stuff, then please refrain from global generalizations based on your very limited experience.
93
@87 Would you put most porn in the category of not my thing, but if somebody else wants to enjoy it that's his business? Or do you think it is a bad thing that nobody should be allowed to see? Most women aren't into porn, and I think their preference should be respected. What I object to is women who jump from 'I think porn is gross' to 'porn is evil and immoral.'
94
I AM HEARBY EMPOWERED BY THE INTERNETS TO INSIST THAT WHEN ONE POSTER INVOKES A SUPPOSED "STUDY" TO SUPPORT A CLAIM WITHOUT A VERIFIABLE LINK (OR PUBLISHED CITES) TO THAT STUDY, THAT THEY BE HENCE FORTH COMPLETELY IGNORED FOR SIX MONTHS AND THEIR ARGUMENT IS INVALIDATED. THIS IS NOW A RULE. IT IS DONE.
there are also studies that show some men are incapable of entering into relationships because of an addiction to porn
I AM HEARBY EMPOWERED BY THE INTERNETS TO INSIST THAT WHEN ONE POSTER INVOKES A SUPPOSED "STUDY" TO SUPPORT A CLAIM WITHOUT A VERIFIABLE LINK (OR PUBLISHED CITES) TO THAT STUDY, THAT THEY BE HENCE FORTH COMPLETELY IGNORED FOR SIX MONTHS AND THEIR ARGUMENT IS INVALIDATED. THIS IS NOW A RULE. IT IS DONE.
95
PS. THERE IS NO SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE THAT THERE EXISTS "PORN ADDICTION." IT IS A LOOSE TERM ONLY VAGUELY ANALOGOUS TO "DRUG ADDICTION" USED BY DR. PHIL, CONFUSED THERAPISTS, AND TREATMENT FACILITIES SO THEY CAN BILL SOMEBODY.
96
@88:
The same study(ies) would also show that some men are just incapable of forming relationships, thus turn to porn.
But when the point of the study is to show the "harm" that porn does, confirmation bias will do what confirmation bias does.
The same study(ies) would also show that some men are just incapable of forming relationships, thus turn to porn.
But when the point of the study is to show the "harm" that porn does, confirmation bias will do what confirmation bias does.
97
@80: I have no problem if women want to engage in sex acts I find inherently degrading. What I have a problem with is men assuming that possibly degrading sex acts come standard and not even asking the girl whether she's okay with it before it happens.
As Dan has said many times before, there is something inherently degrading about coming on someone's face- he's also mentioned that this is what makes it hot. In a social setting, it's humiliating to have food all over your face, or dirt, or pretty much any other gob of stuff on your face. It's a small amount of degradation for most people, and I think quite a few women are totally fine with it. I'm not saying it's degrading like sexual harassment or anything. But I think facials are overrepresented in porn and cause a lot of guys to not even think about whether the girls they end up in bed with actually like it.
"women should give blow jobs in only feminist approved fashion-- "not on your knees, no, not with him standing, no grabbing her head, boys!" "
Well, it's silly to decide certain ways for everyone to give blow jobs, but in this case, I totally agree with "no grabbing her head, boys!" Unless you ask first and she says she is fine with that, you shouldn't assume that it's okay to push her head down on your dick, since that's a good way to get someone to barf all over it.
I guess my overall point is that there are a whole range of sex acts that people should not assume will be welcome.
As Dan has said many times before, there is something inherently degrading about coming on someone's face- he's also mentioned that this is what makes it hot. In a social setting, it's humiliating to have food all over your face, or dirt, or pretty much any other gob of stuff on your face. It's a small amount of degradation for most people, and I think quite a few women are totally fine with it. I'm not saying it's degrading like sexual harassment or anything. But I think facials are overrepresented in porn and cause a lot of guys to not even think about whether the girls they end up in bed with actually like it.
"women should give blow jobs in only feminist approved fashion-- "not on your knees, no, not with him standing, no grabbing her head, boys!" "
Well, it's silly to decide certain ways for everyone to give blow jobs, but in this case, I totally agree with "no grabbing her head, boys!" Unless you ask first and she says she is fine with that, you shouldn't assume that it's okay to push her head down on your dick, since that's a good way to get someone to barf all over it.
I guess my overall point is that there are a whole range of sex acts that people should not assume will be welcome.
98
@97 Ah. Finally. Yes. Which is all another way of saying don't make assumptions and ask first. Okay the crux of the matter, then: CONTEXT.
That has nothing what so ever to do with porn and has everything to do with manners and basic relationship skills. Porn does not teach you these things. Like art doesn't. Or video games don't. NOBODY SHOULD EXPECT THEM TO. Why do we expect porn do be some kind of educational instrument?
And what Dan said is the same thing you just said - that in his OPINION - this one thing is degrading.
It is not "inherently" anything.
I might consider a lot of things degrading. Anything to do with scat or urin. Being infantilized. Being spit on. Being whipped, slapped, or beaten. Being sworn at. Cultural symbols of degradation. But they are not, as much as I might think they are, inherently anything outside a given context.
That's merely a personal value judgement (IE: Dan is also totally gynophobic). So both your and Dan's opinions are not the final word on anything and together this appeal to authority doesn't mean diddly.
Again, I will remind you that most vanilla sex you can think of was, until very recently, considered by society at large to be totally deviant and "inherently" degrading.
What we have here, though, is the term "degrading" to really be a stand in for really meaning "misogynistic to women" in particular. That's what you really mean. Because that's seems to be the only time people in this thread refer to an act as "degrading" in porn. And it's an insult to men and women.
Let me ask you something: When a man performs cunnilingus on a woman - and brings her to orgasm - is she not "coming on his face?" Depending on the individual woman. Are her fluids not ground into his mouth, lips and face? Is that inherently degrading?
My opinion is no. But I suppose in a given context I can imagine it sure could be.
Even in my oral sex example you immediately leap from "grabbing her head" to exaggerating that to mean "push her head down on your dick", which is your own bias and interpretation.
Look, I'm not here to defend any particular sexual kink or anything else.
What I'm here for is to expose the hypocrisy, lack of consistency and lack of intellectual rigor/reason to these criticisms of porn. Which are mostly just thinly veiled ways of demonizing male sexuality.
More...
That has nothing what so ever to do with porn and has everything to do with manners and basic relationship skills. Porn does not teach you these things. Like art doesn't. Or video games don't. NOBODY SHOULD EXPECT THEM TO. Why do we expect porn do be some kind of educational instrument?
And what Dan said is the same thing you just said - that in his OPINION - this one thing is degrading.
It is not "inherently" anything.
I might consider a lot of things degrading. Anything to do with scat or urin. Being infantilized. Being spit on. Being whipped, slapped, or beaten. Being sworn at. Cultural symbols of degradation. But they are not, as much as I might think they are, inherently anything outside a given context.
That's merely a personal value judgement (IE: Dan is also totally gynophobic). So both your and Dan's opinions are not the final word on anything and together this appeal to authority doesn't mean diddly.
Again, I will remind you that most vanilla sex you can think of was, until very recently, considered by society at large to be totally deviant and "inherently" degrading.
What we have here, though, is the term "degrading" to really be a stand in for really meaning "misogynistic to women" in particular. That's what you really mean. Because that's seems to be the only time people in this thread refer to an act as "degrading" in porn. And it's an insult to men and women.
Let me ask you something: When a man performs cunnilingus on a woman - and brings her to orgasm - is she not "coming on his face?" Depending on the individual woman. Are her fluids not ground into his mouth, lips and face? Is that inherently degrading?
My opinion is no. But I suppose in a given context I can imagine it sure could be.
Even in my oral sex example you immediately leap from "grabbing her head" to exaggerating that to mean "push her head down on your dick", which is your own bias and interpretation.
Look, I'm not here to defend any particular sexual kink or anything else.
What I'm here for is to expose the hypocrisy, lack of consistency and lack of intellectual rigor/reason to these criticisms of porn. Which are mostly just thinly veiled ways of demonizing male sexuality.
100
Back on the Serengeti, there was no percentage in not believing that what you saw reflected reality. We have higher functions, some of them designed to tell when others are trying to lie to us, but I can't shake the feeling that a seventeen-year-old raised (uh-henh!) on internet porn will have expectations about sex different to those of someone who weren't. Different enough, and in the negative sense, to make a noticeable difference?...no idea.
I'm not suggesting laws: I'm suggesting parenting (and a society that leaves parents enough leisure to do it, and one honest enough about sex that good information gets to people about as early as the bad).
I'm not suggesting laws: I'm suggesting parenting (and a society that leaves parents enough leisure to do it, and one honest enough about sex that good information gets to people about as early as the bad).
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