Slog
News & ArtsMonday, June 25, 2012
Tech Re: Another Good Reason to Hate Apple
Posted by Charles Mudede on Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 11:00 AM
Typical of the responses on this post:
Wages for retail workers are set by the employment market and competition, not by how much a company makes. I don't love or hate Apple, (It's a giant corporation that doesn't love or hate me either.) but hawking electronic gadgets isn't a highly specialized skill. A person who wants to make more than the average retail worker should aspire to get skill set that warrants a higher salary.
I offer these types of responses this answer:
The Selfish Capitalist toxins that are most poisonous to well-being are the systematic encour- agement of the ideas that material affluence is they key to fulfillment, that only the affluent are winners and that access to the top is open to anyone willing to work hard enough, regardless of their familial, ethnic or social background – if you do not succeed, there is only one person to blame.Seriously, the main problem with American capitalism is not itself but that so many of its subjects see it as real, as really reality, as the way things have and will always be.
1
If specialized labor deserves no particular recognition; if it's just an illusion that some people are better at a given task than others, and no-one should be paid more than anyone else - I suggest Charles that you lead by example.
Simply post your username and password to The SLOG. Since there's nothing special about you, nothing that differentiates your efforts at writing from anyone else's, then STRIKE! Everyone should be able to post as "Charles Mudede", everyone is equally capable and deserves everything that you have.
Oh, and lock all the editors out of the building while you're at it. And take over all of the Information Services roles, because I'm sure you're just as skilled as CTO Anthony Hecht - and there's no reason he should be paid more than you.
Best of luck keeping that web server up and running!
Simply post your username and password to The SLOG. Since there's nothing special about you, nothing that differentiates your efforts at writing from anyone else's, then STRIKE! Everyone should be able to post as "Charles Mudede", everyone is equally capable and deserves everything that you have.
Oh, and lock all the editors out of the building while you're at it. And take over all of the Information Services roles, because I'm sure you're just as skilled as CTO Anthony Hecht - and there's no reason he should be paid more than you.
Best of luck keeping that web server up and running!
3
@1 The 'Geniuses' at the Apple store are specialized labor? You do know that 'specialized' is not the same as socially challenged, right? Or that $11/hr doesn't mean that Apple finds them very special either.
4
If a sales person made as much as a gadget hardware/software designer, what would be the incentive to do the hard work of going to college, studying computer science, and learning complex electronics systems? Why bother if you can make just as much by having the very basic computer knowledge of the average 12 year old, good hygiene, manners, and the ability to put on a t-shirt, and Apple lanyard as the only required skill set?
5
If the company you work for prospers, so will you. That is the principle that Apple is violating when it is paying its employees $11.25 and hour in spite of record breaking profits. Now, you can argue that a companies are entitled to pay the lowest wages their employees will accept, but then you should also accept that employees have a right to organize into unions and bargain collectively for higher wages.
8
@4 I don't think that people are, nor should they be, advocating that retail workers are making as much as engineers and designers. If only for the mere reason that there are more of them in a company and more replaceable.
However, where American Capitalism has been failing for the past 40 years is that as companies have grown bigger and become more profitable, they have only marginally increased the wages of anybody except their CEOs and top executives. This is a failure of the system.
However, where American Capitalism has been failing for the past 40 years is that as companies have grown bigger and become more profitable, they have only marginally increased the wages of anybody except their CEOs and top executives. This is a failure of the system.
9
@4. Why bother? Maybe bother simply for the reason that that person likes designing gadgets/software and does not worry him/herself about making a shit-ton more than the people who sells his/her inventions. Compensation is one thing. And one should be fairly compensated for their contributions, but deciding others can't get anywhere near what you're getting compensated as a way to feel self-worth seems fairly petty.
10
9, So, a neurosurgeon who's gone to 4+ years college, 4+ years med school, completed up to 5 years of residency should make the same as the high school drop-out who walked in off the street to mop the floors?
11
@4; While some people are motivated to study and work hard only so as to be rich, others are motivated by ego, the desire for fame, recognition of talent, the ability to be their best, or sheer nerdiness.
In a commie utopia where "each according to their ability, and each according to their need," was the philosophy underpinning all life, I doubt most people would aspire to be shop assistants simply because they only have to develop a 12 year old level of education.
Many would seize on that free education, so as to do something interesting and fulfilling.
Sweden who taxes much higher than the US, and has a much better social safety net is not exactly suffering from it.
In a commie utopia where "each according to their ability, and each according to their need," was the philosophy underpinning all life, I doubt most people would aspire to be shop assistants simply because they only have to develop a 12 year old level of education.
Many would seize on that free education, so as to do something interesting and fulfilling.
Sweden who taxes much higher than the US, and has a much better social safety net is not exactly suffering from it.
12
@10 That's not what I said. At all, actually. The neurosurgeon should make what the neurosurgeon makes because that is the compensation for both the kind of education and the precision of work that person does. What he/she should not do as a result, is be worried about the janitors making far less. I'm not saying janitors need a neurosurgeon salary. I'm just saying that it does not diminish the neurosurgeon's work if the janitors did make as much because he/she's still rich. If he/she'd rather clean toilets, then fine. If the only reason the neurosurgeon is doing what he/she does is to get rich (and feel superiority in others being poor), then maybe they should re-evaluate some of their priorities.
13
11, The communist experiment was tried and failed in the USSR. People did the barest minimal work, corruption was rampant, and supplies didn't meet demand. All of their products were poorly made and outdated because there was no competition.
I know some people from the Communist era USSR, and they had one light bulb for their entire household. They had to move it from room to room in the over crowded apartment. When they visited the US, we went to the grocery store, and when they saw the abundance, they swore it was a fake setup. They were warned by the Soviet government that we could try to "trick" them into believing that we had it better.
I know some people from the Communist era USSR, and they had one light bulb for their entire household. They had to move it from room to room in the over crowded apartment. When they visited the US, we went to the grocery store, and when they saw the abundance, they swore it was a fake setup. They were warned by the Soviet government that we could try to "trick" them into believing that we had it better.
14
@11, I know it failed in the USSR, but the capitalist experiment failed in the US too, (if it wasn't a failure, then you wouldn't have so much poverty, malnutrition and illiteracy amidst such abundance). Not sure what the right balance is, but we should at least be aspiring towards getting it right. And I think it would help to stop assuming that it's ok for people to be allowed to fall through the cracks, and that falling through the cracks is an effective way of "motivating" people not to be so poor.
16
@14 I agree. I am also continually irritated by how black and white the capitalism/socialism/communism conversation is. It doesn't take too much critical thinking to see that the answer is a blend and not an extreme.
17
It is a fallacy to think that everyone can become affluent if they become more educated or work harder. The Law of Supply and Demand would nullify any gains fairly quickly. This is otherwise known as high inflation - too much money chasing the same number of goods. Inflation has been the great bugaboo since the late 1970s and that's the main reason, I believe, that we are living in this current era of wage stagnation. Since that time, when economist and politicians have made the claim 'a rising tide lifts all boats' what they were really saying, knowingly or unknowingly, is 'Devil take hindmost.'
18
When you think about how much Apple should pay its salespeople, you are probably thinking like this: Apple is currently paying this group of x people who are currently salespeople $y. If they raised wages, they would be paying this group of x people who are currently salespeople $z. But that's not actually how this works. If Apple were to, say, feel pressure from outside to substantially raise pay, it is likely that two things would happen. First, they would shift to a smaller staff, either through layoffs or through attrition. Second, they would shift to a higher-skilled staff because at higher salaries, they could afford a higher-skilled staff. So when you're thinking about that particular (standard, not atypical) $11-an-hour employee who you want Apple to pay more money, you should consider that he may not actually have that job anymore if Apple's wages were to rise significantly.
19
Getting back to the original post, because Jordan Golson sold $750,000 in technology doesn't indicate that he should therefore make the same wages as the person who invented and/or designed those gadgets. But would it kill Apple to pay him $22/hr instead of $11? Stating that he has no skills because he did not get a Masters in Computers (or whatever degree designers get) is insincere. He must have some level of skills if he was able to sell $750,000 worth of product. Even if his skills are only that he has an engaging personality and a base-level knowledge of those gadgets, he's still doing a bang-up job for a GIANT corporation who has the extra cash to spend on its workers.
20
@18 They may lay off people as a result, but whether it's $11 pay, or higher pay and layoffs, these are both dick moves. Layoffs may be the reality, but Apple knows this does not have to be the case.
21
14, I'm not saying pure unregulated capitalism is good either, but our system is much better than communism. Yes there needs to be regulations because companies won't always do the right thing without oversight, but like it or not, people are materially motivated. More often than not, people won't put in their best efforts just for the good feelings.
My sister works in a financial profession, (She's not a Wall Street investor, or anything like that.) and recently took an exam that 80% of the people fail. She studied day and night for months. She missed family gatherings, and other social events. She's still waiting on the results, but feels like she passed it. If there wasn't a financial benefit as incentive, she wouldn't have bothered to work so hard for this licensing. (Licensing as in a good and necessary government regulation.)
Our system must be realistic and honest to the way human nature is, not the way we wish it were.
My sister works in a financial profession, (She's not a Wall Street investor, or anything like that.) and recently took an exam that 80% of the people fail. She studied day and night for months. She missed family gatherings, and other social events. She's still waiting on the results, but feels like she passed it. If there wasn't a financial benefit as incentive, she wouldn't have bothered to work so hard for this licensing. (Licensing as in a good and necessary government regulation.)
Our system must be realistic and honest to the way human nature is, not the way we wish it were.
22
@20: OK, assume attrition rather than layoffs. Is it also bad for Apple to operate with a smaller workforce if they don't do so by firing anyone? Either way, there are people who are working for Apple now, or who would be working for Apple in the future, who will not be working for Apple. Is there some moral work force size for Apple? And is it also bad for Apple to hire the best employees they can get for the wage they're paying, which is the other way that the current (or future) $11-an-hour employee for Apple would no longer have a job working for Apple, should wages rise significantly?
23
@21, I see your point, but I am skeptical about the assumption that greed and materialism are just 'human nature.'
Capitalism pits us against one another, and enflames greed. Humans evolved to cooperate and share. I'm not sure how or if we can get back to that place, but I'd like to think it's possible.
One can no more make assumptions about human nature when viewing us within capitalism than one can make assumptions about the nature of other animals viewed in captivity.
The pessimism about human nature upon which capitalism is built is a self fulfilling prophesy.
Capitalism pits us against one another, and enflames greed. Humans evolved to cooperate and share. I'm not sure how or if we can get back to that place, but I'd like to think it's possible.
One can no more make assumptions about human nature when viewing us within capitalism than one can make assumptions about the nature of other animals viewed in captivity.
The pessimism about human nature upon which capitalism is built is a self fulfilling prophesy.
24
If the company you work for doesn't prosper you deserve to be poor? That's inhumane.
The profits from all companies should be pooled and distributed equally among all the unskilled, entry level workers. And the unemployed, too. This would lead to true happiness and prosperity for all. And what could go wrong?
The profits from all companies should be pooled and distributed equally among all the unskilled, entry level workers. And the unemployed, too. This would lead to true happiness and prosperity for all. And what could go wrong?
25
@21 Yes, it is human nature to hoard limited resources, but should that be codified by law or government policy?
26
I will take welfare-state capitalism over Mudede's Marxism, which would result in a society equivalent to a modestly improved GDR.
28
Well, if you don't want to pay the people who serve you a living wage with health insurance, then you don't have too...but guess what? I don't have to work a job that doesn't pay me a living wage or provide health insurance.
29
I love it when people come here from failed states (particularly when their parents had a hand in it) and tell us how awful it is here (and yet won't fucking leave).
30
The next time you want to buy a computer such as a Mac, ask the sales person questions that you would like to really know the answers to. If they can answer your question then they are worth more than they are being paid. When computers are designed exclusively by computers, the human interface will still be the one you will count on. Try finding your answers to those specific questions you have about using an e-device on the manufacturer's website, including Apple's, and you will gain an impression of how illiterate the engineers and program writers are. An office building full of execs and pee'ons might help circulate money in the economy, but without the electricians, maintenance, plumbers, cleaners, the building and its workers is useless.
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