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News & ArtsMonday, June 25, 2012
Tech Another Good Reason to Hate Apple
Posted by Charles Mudede on Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 8:33 AM
NYT:
Last year, during his best three-month stretch, Jordan Golson sold about $750,000 worth of computers and gadgets at the Apple Store in Salem, N.H. It was a performance that might have called for a bottle of Champagne — if that were a luxury Mr. Golson could have afforded.“I was earning $11.25 an hour,” he said. “Part of me was thinking, ‘This is great. I’m an Apple fan, the store is doing really well.’ But when you look at the amount of money the company is making and then you look at your paycheck, it’s kind of tough.
$11.25 an hour for a company whose...
...327 global stores took in more money per square foot than any other United States retailer — wireless or otherwise — and almost double that of Tiffany, which was No. 2 on the list, according to the research firm RetailSails.Best Buy, for example, makes $823 per square feet; Apple makes $5.647. Best Buy pays $9.99; Apple $11.91. To better grasp the scale of this exploitation: 30,000 of Apple's 43,000 employees in the US work in Apple Stores.
2
Beyond the opening paragraph, the article indicates its inquiry has led Apple to quietly raise the hourly wage rather substantially. So not a reason to hate Apple but a reason to be glad it responds to pressure in this way, as it has to pressure on its manufacturing practices too.
As for the rate itself, the article says even the lower rate mentioned above still beats other retailers. It's also important to bear in mind Apple does make products that fly off the shelves so fast the sales process is sometimes more of a cashier function.
As for the rate itself, the article says even the lower rate mentioned above still beats other retailers. It's also important to bear in mind Apple does make products that fly off the shelves so fast the sales process is sometimes more of a cashier function.
3
Pick a different quote Charles and you have a very different story:
"By the standards of retailing, Apple offers above average pay — well above the minimum wage of $7.25 and better than the Gap, though slightly less than Lululemon, the yoga and athletic apparel chain, where sales staff earn about $12 an hour. The company also offers very good benefits for a retailer, including health care, 401(k) contributions and the chance to buy company stock, as well as Apple products, at a discount.” ....
just goes to show that just like Fox News, The Stranger is capable of grabbing a piece of a story, showing it out of context and using it to support a preexisting opinion. .... way to go Charles .. you’ve become the Marxist version of Fox News.
"By the standards of retailing, Apple offers above average pay — well above the minimum wage of $7.25 and better than the Gap, though slightly less than Lululemon, the yoga and athletic apparel chain, where sales staff earn about $12 an hour. The company also offers very good benefits for a retailer, including health care, 401(k) contributions and the chance to buy company stock, as well as Apple products, at a discount.” ....
just goes to show that just like Fox News, The Stranger is capable of grabbing a piece of a story, showing it out of context and using it to support a preexisting opinion. .... way to go Charles .. you’ve become the Marxist version of Fox News.
4
Well, I'd recommend that Jordan go apply over at Tiffany's right away.
Wait--Jordan doesn't have a suit, knows nothing and cares less about diamonds, can't stand the in-store culture or any of the customers, and can't make much use of his Tiffany's employee discount?
Wait--Jordan doesn't have a suit, knows nothing and cares less about diamonds, can't stand the in-store culture or any of the customers, and can't make much use of his Tiffany's employee discount?
5
Wait, so Apple pays more than Best Buy, and we're supposed to hate Apple? What, are they supposed to not only pay more than competitors, but pay dramatically more, just to be nice?
Oh, crap, suckered into reading a Mudede post. I need my Monday coffee.
Oh, crap, suckered into reading a Mudede post. I need my Monday coffee.
6
This is like saying that it's unfair how McDonald's is making a couple billion dollars a second and the fry guy isn't making any more today than he was last year.
Move on.
Move on.
7
@5
No, what he's saying is that Apple doesn't share the profits. The MASSIVE profits. How else do they end up with over $100 billion in cash reserves. They don't even share the profits with their investors.
No, what he's saying is that Apple doesn't share the profits. The MASSIVE profits. How else do they end up with over $100 billion in cash reserves. They don't even share the profits with their investors.
9
@7 And I do realize that they did annouce a dividend plan, but I think that's rather late given their financial performance over the last 5 years.
10
@9 And if someone points out the stock performance, that's irrelevant. They should have split the stock years ago, but they won't because they don't want to lose control, and Apple is run by complete control freaks. So, between no control over the direction of the company, and a poor history of profit sharing, what's to attract an investor? The stock price can't grow forever.
11
@10: They did split the stock years ago, in 2005.
Investors will be attracted to the stock for the same reasons they always are: because they believe they'll be able to sell it a later date for more than they paid for it.
Investors will be attracted to the stock for the same reasons they always are: because they believe they'll be able to sell it a later date for more than they paid for it.
12
Apple's sales per square foot, or any other measure/comparison, are due to the products. Not the staff. Period.
Jordan and any other kid on the floor taking your money are not doing anything different than a Best Buy employee. At most, one could argue they are more personable and less annoying, due to store policy and the vibe Apple strives for. And with that, they get a little more pay than Best Buy kids. Awesome.
I usually think I'm all progressive as they come, but any outrage over what Jordan is seeing is only going to give moderates something to roll their eyes on towards the left leaning side of the country. And I'm a fan of preventing that so we can appeal to them on other issues, instead of being ignored as 'those wacky crazy liberals'. Let's pick better battles guys.
Jordan and any other kid on the floor taking your money are not doing anything different than a Best Buy employee. At most, one could argue they are more personable and less annoying, due to store policy and the vibe Apple strives for. And with that, they get a little more pay than Best Buy kids. Awesome.
I usually think I'm all progressive as they come, but any outrage over what Jordan is seeing is only going to give moderates something to roll their eyes on towards the left leaning side of the country. And I'm a fan of preventing that so we can appeal to them on other issues, instead of being ignored as 'those wacky crazy liberals'. Let's pick better battles guys.
13
Uhh, I think that $11.25 per hour to work retail sounds pretty luxurious, considering I make just a few dollars more with my freaking MASTER'S degree (in social work, but still).
14
It's simple: no matter how much you sell or do, there is zero value in retail employees.
Your best bet is to take those numbers, slap them on a resume, and start temping in sales and marketing.
Your best bet is to take those numbers, slap them on a resume, and start temping in sales and marketing.
15
Are the Apple store retail kids unionized? If they won't take that first step, I really can't feel bad about them making more than average for retail.
16
Having worked at Apple retail I can tell you first hand it doesn't take much sales effort to sell their products. When I worked there they were paying a few dollars over minimum and I was happy with that.
The author who posted this likes to get a rise out of people but he sometimes doesn't do a good job telling the entire story.
I'm glad to hear that they recently increased wages, but in all honesty, most the people that work at Apple are diehard fanboys. They love being around the products and ideas. Even if they don't share in the riches.
The author who posted this likes to get a rise out of people but he sometimes doesn't do a good job telling the entire story.
I'm glad to hear that they recently increased wages, but in all honesty, most the people that work at Apple are diehard fanboys. They love being around the products and ideas. Even if they don't share in the riches.
17
Employment is about supply and demand. Especially in today's economic conditions, there are a *lot* of people out there that will happily work at an Apple store for $11/hr, and all Apple has to do is pay well enough to keep turnover costs from becoming too burdensome as compared to compensation. It's also worth noting that Apple employee benefits are quite good, especially compared to other retail chains. This makes their effective wage higher too (although the calculus becomes fuzzy pretty quickly)
And let's be honest, people buy an Apple product because of the product (that Apple spends a lot of money paying people to develop and refine), not because of the hipster who stands around at the store wearing a shirt with an Apple logo on it. They don't have to pay most Apple store employees more than they do because they don't have that much in the way of specialized skills or knowledge. Everything that the guy standing around on the floor in a blue shirt is required to know about Apple products you can learn from their website with no trouble. Don't get me wrong. I'm not knocking the store employees. Most if not all of them do a great job. But their job is transaction facilitator, not salesman.
Also keep in mind that this refers to the run-of-the-mill floor employees, not store managers, or the people who work at the Genius bar. Those people have do more specialized skills and knowledge, and are paid better.
And let's be honest, people buy an Apple product because of the product (that Apple spends a lot of money paying people to develop and refine), not because of the hipster who stands around at the store wearing a shirt with an Apple logo on it. They don't have to pay most Apple store employees more than they do because they don't have that much in the way of specialized skills or knowledge. Everything that the guy standing around on the floor in a blue shirt is required to know about Apple products you can learn from their website with no trouble. Don't get me wrong. I'm not knocking the store employees. Most if not all of them do a great job. But their job is transaction facilitator, not salesman.
Also keep in mind that this refers to the run-of-the-mill floor employees, not store managers, or the people who work at the Genius bar. Those people have do more specialized skills and knowledge, and are paid better.
18
Wages for retail workers are set by the employment market and competition, not by how much a company makes. I don't love or hate Apple, (It's a giant corporation that doesn't love or hate me either.) but hawking electronic gadgets isn't a highly specialized skill. A person who wants to make more than the average retail worker should aspire to get skill set that warrants a higher salary. The person who designs the gadgets, and software makes more money because most people cannot do that.
19
Why should we expect companies to pay more than the market demands for labor when people won't pay more than the market demands for goods?
20
If Apple's sales people were the one's creating the value they're selling, I might be more outraged.
Apple's products sell themselves and Apple retail's culture, training and systems are good enough to turn the average college kid into a salesperson who can move a $1M worth of product a year. If these salespeople bring so much value, why aren't other companies offering to double or triple their salaries to deal Windows phones, BMWs, or Dreamliners?
Apple's products sell themselves and Apple retail's culture, training and systems are good enough to turn the average college kid into a salesperson who can move a $1M worth of product a year. If these salespeople bring so much value, why aren't other companies offering to double or triple their salaries to deal Windows phones, BMWs, or Dreamliners?
21
Alternate headline:
"In depressed economy, Apple pays its retail employees 16% higher than Best Buy."
(They also offer their retail employees health insurance and a 401k.)
"In depressed economy, Apple pays its retail employees 16% higher than Best Buy."
(They also offer their retail employees health insurance and a 401k.)
22
Charles is right. Apple has no excuse. They could at least implement profit share and/or commissions for fuck sake. They USED to pay a much better proportional scale back in the day when their products were made here in the US.
The problem is people don't wat to pay the premium prices. The number one criticism of Apple is the prices for their products is too high. Which is ironic. Because if wanted to actually reflect realistic cost of responsible production they should cost a lot more. And then people would really bitch.
Though, again, coming from The Stranger, who don't pay their fucking interns AT ALL, this all rings rather hollow.
The problem is people don't wat to pay the premium prices. The number one criticism of Apple is the prices for their products is too high. Which is ironic. Because if wanted to actually reflect realistic cost of responsible production they should cost a lot more. And then people would really bitch.
Though, again, coming from The Stranger, who don't pay their fucking interns AT ALL, this all rings rather hollow.
23
@22.
Yeah! Apple should pay extra Rent to malls/landlords compared to the market value, because Apple has no excuse not to! And their cleaning staff each night should be getting a lot more too, because argh, Apple has no excuse!
Regardless of any back-in-the-day nostalgia, working retail on the floor is just a not-much-more-than-minimum type of job. The managers and geniuses however, should be making some coin, as there's marketable skill there.
I'm betting that Apple should be paying more in taxes, as is the state of the world these days...but generic sales, cleaning, shelf stocking, etc.....not really.
Yeah! Apple should pay extra Rent to malls/landlords compared to the market value, because Apple has no excuse not to! And their cleaning staff each night should be getting a lot more too, because argh, Apple has no excuse!
Regardless of any back-in-the-day nostalgia, working retail on the floor is just a not-much-more-than-minimum type of job. The managers and geniuses however, should be making some coin, as there's marketable skill there.
I'm betting that Apple should be paying more in taxes, as is the state of the world these days...but generic sales, cleaning, shelf stocking, etc.....not really.
26
@22: No-one trusts someone working on commission. You know they're just going to sell you whatever makes them the most money. Again, Jordan should go work for a realtor if he wants to get paid commission for his mad selling skills. But, Jordan doesn't want to do that, because no-one wants to work in the Glengarry Glen Ross office.
28
@26 No one? You got proof of that? No. You don't.
I do. I trust people who work on commission. So there goes that nonsense "argument." And there many way to structure commissions or profit shares that avoid whatever bullshit you're attempting to claim. How dare people want a piece of their own labor! How dare they!
So what your arguing for is an executive salary that 400x the base wage of the hourly worker?
Where the hourly worker has to go into debt to afford housing, healthcare, let alone the products that they make or sell. Great.
That's neither equitable, moral, nor sustainable. It drives a race to the bottom.
But hey. As long as entitled little fucks get their super cool iPads, who cares, am I right? Even though they have go in to debt for it.
All hail the mighty markets!
I do. I trust people who work on commission. So there goes that nonsense "argument." And there many way to structure commissions or profit shares that avoid whatever bullshit you're attempting to claim. How dare people want a piece of their own labor! How dare they!
So what your arguing for is an executive salary that 400x the base wage of the hourly worker?
Where the hourly worker has to go into debt to afford housing, healthcare, let alone the products that they make or sell. Great.
That's neither equitable, moral, nor sustainable. It drives a race to the bottom.
But hey. As long as entitled little fucks get their super cool iPads, who cares, am I right? Even though they have go in to debt for it.
All hail the mighty markets!
29
Quoth TKC@28: I trust people who work on commission.
Awesome! Can I interest you in a time-share?
Awesome! Can I interest you in a time-share?
30
Working at the Apple store is a good stepping stone to a better paying job and he should probably find one soon.
My job has buyers calling me up, looking for parts list for a system they are designing. Some systems can be 50,000 - 100,000. I dont get paid commission, but I do get paid almost 20$ an hour with great health insurance.
My job has buyers calling me up, looking for parts list for a system they are designing. Some systems can be 50,000 - 100,000. I dont get paid commission, but I do get paid almost 20$ an hour with great health insurance.
31
@29 Can I interest you in a more equitable society where people don't lose their homes due to illness and the greed driven by financial bubbles?
32
@ 31, um.... well, all I can say is that you're a bundle of contradiction. People working on commission were the very cogs of the machine that made the housing bubble occur. Loan consultants don't work on salary.
Getting back to the Apple Store in particular, commission is a terrible idea if people value the relaxed, helpful vibe you have now. Profit sharing is a much better idea.
Getting back to the Apple Store in particular, commission is a terrible idea if people value the relaxed, helpful vibe you have now. Profit sharing is a much better idea.
33
@tkc.
Huh?? "I trust people who work on commission". You trust people who get more money the more they can sell you. Okay.
Why are you bringing CEO pay into the argument? Hey, I agree that problem sucks, 100%. But only in relation to skilled employees making the stuff that makes the company successful....not in any relation to the little sales McJobs. (No not that Jobs)
Wait, are you aware this is about sales people? I can't even tell any more. You know, the (basically) unskilled kids they hire to answer basic Apple questions and then run your card through their little hand held checkout program.
Look, I get what you're fighting for, and it's a good and needed fight. But you are hurting the cause more than helping it when you're rallying for exorbitant pay on a job that somebody that's doing pretty good at McDonald's could transition too.
Huh?? "I trust people who work on commission". You trust people who get more money the more they can sell you. Okay.
Why are you bringing CEO pay into the argument? Hey, I agree that problem sucks, 100%. But only in relation to skilled employees making the stuff that makes the company successful....not in any relation to the little sales McJobs. (No not that Jobs)
Wait, are you aware this is about sales people? I can't even tell any more. You know, the (basically) unskilled kids they hire to answer basic Apple questions and then run your card through their little hand held checkout program.
Look, I get what you're fighting for, and it's a good and needed fight. But you are hurting the cause more than helping it when you're rallying for exorbitant pay on a job that somebody that's doing pretty good at McDonald's could transition too.
34
Yes, Charles really ... I’ve been a retail consultant for close to 20 years and Apple’s benefits and hourly are actually quite commendable, given national standards for consumer goods retailers. If you want to go after a retailer who pays little, provides few if any benefits and often pays it’s employees so little they have to go on public assistance and use emergency rooms for their medical care .. look at Walmart. If you want to look locally try looking at all of the restaurants who often skirt laws on shift breaks and offer no benefits at all, while serving a very premium product. While few businesses are perfect, Apple is hardly the worst. Sure it would be great if they paid their employees more given the amount of traffic the stores experience, it really is unfair to compare them to Tiffany which is a luxury retailer and should be compared to BMW, Prada, etc not Apple.
35
@28,
Salespeople on commission are some of the worst people to deal with. Debt collectors and telemarketers are only marginally worse.
You won't see me arguing for it, but you also won't see me arguing that any individual company is solely responsible for fixing that problem. Apple will only get its ass handed to it by its shareholders if it so much as tries to pay its employees significantly more than a normal retail wage.
Salespeople on commission are some of the worst people to deal with. Debt collectors and telemarketers are only marginally worse.
So what your arguing for is an executive salary that 400x the base wage of the hourly worker?
You won't see me arguing for it, but you also won't see me arguing that any individual company is solely responsible for fixing that problem. Apple will only get its ass handed to it by its shareholders if it so much as tries to pay its employees significantly more than a normal retail wage.
36
I know. Which is why I said it the first place.
A profit share is probably a much better idea. Way back in the day when I worked at Kinko's we got a profit share. I wouldn't have been able to afford college otherwise.
But the profound lack of imagination in here only focuses on some ridiculously biased view of what a commission compensation looks like when distorted by the extremes of the market. There are probably many, many, ways to structure commission or profit share systems that won't necessarily lead to abuses.
C'mon. And now the last straw man. A living wage is now "exorbitant."
Yes. You guys are all for a more equitable far system, alright. As long it doesn't effect you or your sacred cows in any way.
Look. It's got to start somewhere. Why not Apple?
Your arguments so far: But god. My precious iPad might end up costing $20 more! Not that. B...but what about the share holders!?!
Or maybe the executives could get lower salaries in place of profit share. You want to continue the race to the bottom? Great. Have a nice time. I got mine. Good luck to the rest of you.
Profit sharing is a much better idea.
I know. Which is why I said it the first place.
A profit share is probably a much better idea. Way back in the day when I worked at Kinko's we got a profit share. I wouldn't have been able to afford college otherwise.
But the profound lack of imagination in here only focuses on some ridiculously biased view of what a commission compensation looks like when distorted by the extremes of the market. There are probably many, many, ways to structure commission or profit share systems that won't necessarily lead to abuses.
you're rallying for exorbitant pay on a job that somebody that's doing pretty good at McDonald's could transition too.
C'mon. And now the last straw man. A living wage is now "exorbitant."
Yes. You guys are all for a more equitable far system, alright. As long it doesn't effect you or your sacred cows in any way.
Look. It's got to start somewhere. Why not Apple?
Your arguments so far: But god. My precious iPad might end up costing $20 more! Not that. B...but what about the share holders!?!
Or maybe the executives could get lower salaries in place of profit share. You want to continue the race to the bottom? Great. Have a nice time. I got mine. Good luck to the rest of you.
38
#31: I'm very interested in that! But damned if I can figure out why you think that Apple's higher-paid, health-insured retail employees are standing in the way.
39
#37 you are insane. That is only $22,000 a year. IF you are full time.
The vast majority of retail employees do not work 40hr a week shifts. So most Apple employees are not making near that pathetic amount. The 2011 HHS poverty guideline (for a family of 1) is $11,170 - which is ABSURD. Most developed countries calculate the poverty line (when you include government subsidized healthcare most other countries have) to be about $19,000 for 1 person.
Most Apple stores exist in most major urban areas where the average yearly rent for a studio apartment is nearly $13,000 - $15,000 a year.
What will those flush Apple employees do with that extra $7000 dollars a year! Eat? Take the bus? What luxuries!
This is not 1987 anymore. $12 per hour is shit wages for a huge company like Apple. This isn't a mom and pop company, here. In just the third quarter of 2011 Apple's NET profit was OVER 7 billion. For ONE quarter. NET!
Yes. I applaud apple for being at the top of a very low bar. Congratulations Apple, one of the worlds most profitable companies in human history, your employees squeak by the low poverty standard in the US and might almost be able to buy one of your own laptops if they share an apartment with three roommates, don't eat too much, don't get sick, don't go to college, don't have a savings account, or have a kid. The only college kids who can afford to work at Apple are kids who's incomes are fully supplemented by their parents. Yay. Apple!
What the fuck is wrong with you people? The comments here are just dripping with contempt for working people. "McJobs?" Fuck you.
What the do you people do that makes you such better more valuable people? Or is it that just that frigg'n tribal about Apple? And this is a supposed "liberal" blog? You all should be ashamed.
More...
The vast majority of retail employees do not work 40hr a week shifts. So most Apple employees are not making near that pathetic amount. The 2011 HHS poverty guideline (for a family of 1) is $11,170 - which is ABSURD. Most developed countries calculate the poverty line (when you include government subsidized healthcare most other countries have) to be about $19,000 for 1 person.
Most Apple stores exist in most major urban areas where the average yearly rent for a studio apartment is nearly $13,000 - $15,000 a year.
What will those flush Apple employees do with that extra $7000 dollars a year! Eat? Take the bus? What luxuries!
This is not 1987 anymore. $12 per hour is shit wages for a huge company like Apple. This isn't a mom and pop company, here. In just the third quarter of 2011 Apple's NET profit was OVER 7 billion. For ONE quarter. NET!
Yes. I applaud apple for being at the top of a very low bar. Congratulations Apple, one of the worlds most profitable companies in human history, your employees squeak by the low poverty standard in the US and might almost be able to buy one of your own laptops if they share an apartment with three roommates, don't eat too much, don't get sick, don't go to college, don't have a savings account, or have a kid. The only college kids who can afford to work at Apple are kids who's incomes are fully supplemented by their parents. Yay. Apple!
What the fuck is wrong with you people? The comments here are just dripping with contempt for working people. "McJobs?" Fuck you.
What the do you people do that makes you such better more valuable people? Or is it that just that frigg'n tribal about Apple? And this is a supposed "liberal" blog? You all should be ashamed.
40
@38 Sigh. C'mon. Really? That's what you got? You know that's not even close to what I said.
Apple makes $25 Billion dollars in 2011. And in the limits of your supposed liberal imagination the BEST they can do $12 an hour? Shameful.
Apple makes $25 Billion dollars in 2011. And in the limits of your supposed liberal imagination the BEST they can do $12 an hour? Shameful.
41
@39 I especially love how employees making $11.25 have the opportunity to buy Apple stock, because investing is a HUGE priority for people trying to decide which to pay from among the rent, the doctors' bills, or the utility bills.
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