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News & ArtsThursday, June 21, 2012
Transportation / City / Sports Public Transit Crucial to Arena Success
Posted by Goldy on Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 8:32 AM
If Seattle eventually draws an NHL franchise, there's an outside chance it could be the New York Islanders, the team with the second worst attendance in the league despite a proud history and a strong fan base. So why do the Islanders have so much trouble selling tickets when most of the other professional sports teams in the region pack the house?
The biggest reason is the lack of transit oriented development that surrounds the Nassau Veterans Memorial Coliseum.
If you want to go see a game at the Coliseum you better have a car. It even says on the website for Nassau Veterans Memorial Coliseum that there are no trains on the Long Island Railroad that go directly to the Coliseum. Every other professional sports team in the Tri-State area has at least one train or subway that stops directly at their stadium.
Islander fans don't only live in Long Island. They are spread all throughout New York City and New Jersey as well. Considering that there are no train lines that go directly to the Coliseum, it can make it near impossible to make it to a game on time.
The Islanders owners have explored a number of plans to build a new arena, and all of them have direct access to rail. Something to think about as we discuss whether there are better alternative sites for a new arena than the Sodo location—walking distance from both Link light rail and the Sounder train—that has already been proposed.
1
"If you want to go see a game at the Coliseum you better have a car..."
And of course, no one on Long Island has those.
2
The sodo location isn't "walking distance" from rail in any sense that urban planners use. It's quite the schlep and requires crossing a couple of extra iffy intersections.
If you want to improve transit fortunes, build an Arena Station and extend Link to the Junction. Everyone wins and it forms the base for a future expansion which would serve far more people and have a longer legacy than the arena.
If you want to improve transit fortunes, build an Arena Station and extend Link to the Junction. Everyone wins and it forms the base for a future expansion which would serve far more people and have a longer legacy than the arena.
3
@1 Jesus Christ you're an idiot. "Islander fans don't only live in Long Island. They are spread all throughout New York City and New Jersey as well."
4
Between the Rangers, Islanders, Devils & Flyers, that region is oversaturated by teams. Still, I'd rather see it be one of the Florida teams relocated (and realistically, they should probably be relocated to Portland, which already has the arena & infrastructure in place. Seattle basketball/hockey fans could be forced to throw their allegiances to the south, same as native Portland baseball/football fans throw theirs northward. Not a perfect or ideal solution of course, but probably the least costly in terms of overall logistics and long-term planning & development.)
5
This is bullshit, Goldy. The link makes the case for transit, but not for "transit-oriented development." Some schmuck just threw that in there. The kind of "transit-oriented development," the "entertainment district" that this asshole Hansen wants will be ruinous to the Port, and to freight mobility. It will drive out family-wage union jobs and put in their place low-wage nonunion service-sector jobs.
Fuck the NBA and the NHL. Our port and our local manufacturing base is more important.
Fuck the NBA and the NHL. Our port and our local manufacturing base is more important.
6
@3, Everyone knows that. Until The Stranger appends "I am only trolling, do not respond to my posts" to the end of Bailo's username you will need to just ignore him the old-fashioned way.
7
1. if they need a public contribution so much, why aren't we going to be partners sharing in the upside profits of the whole team ownership thing?
2. if it's such a no risk deal, why can't hansen get private funding for all of it?
3. if putting money into this is "good" -- culturally, socially, economically -- how does that show it's better than putting money into schools, roads, broadband, health?
4. shouldn't we sort of have a bias against subsidizing private billionaires and millionaires who stand to reap hundreds of millions in profits not to mention the fact this whole sport thing is just a way for legally enforced monopolies to rip off taxpayers all over the usa? and to jack up player salaries? the whole thing is a one percenter scam to rip off the public much like wall street bailours. we pay; we get crumbs; they get BILLIONS.
oh wait, our government exists to fool faux progressives into supporting one percenter socialism schemes.
2. if it's such a no risk deal, why can't hansen get private funding for all of it?
3. if putting money into this is "good" -- culturally, socially, economically -- how does that show it's better than putting money into schools, roads, broadband, health?
4. shouldn't we sort of have a bias against subsidizing private billionaires and millionaires who stand to reap hundreds of millions in profits not to mention the fact this whole sport thing is just a way for legally enforced monopolies to rip off taxpayers all over the usa? and to jack up player salaries? the whole thing is a one percenter scam to rip off the public much like wall street bailours. we pay; we get crumbs; they get BILLIONS.
oh wait, our government exists to fool faux progressives into supporting one percenter socialism schemes.
8
plenty of stadiums outside long island don't really have great transit access, and are successful, too. long island is hard to get to when manhattan is largely carless and stand in the way of CT and NJ folks who'd like to get to long island. it's um, on an island? a cul de sac, so to speak. this is not like the suburban stadiums in la or dc or what not many of which do just fine. people going to pay $100 anight usually don't want to mess with public transit that much to be honest. what train goes to dodger stadium?
9
@4, Portland has the arena, but doesn't have the corporate largess and economy to support the NHL. Their economy can support junior hockey but that is about it.
BD Gallof has had some very good information and sources on the Islanders situation on his twitter and his NY CBS local articles. Brooklyn right now may be the best bet in spite of the arena if the Barclay Center people give Wang the kind of revenue he wants on the seating and the luxury boxes. I think if the arena is approved, Seattle is in play if the Barclays Center offer falls through or if the NHL wants to expand.
As far as the Islanders drawing on LI, I tend to think that the problem is more of the economy and a belief that they're not quite good enough to support--they filled the place up during their Stanley Cup runs, but maybe now the combination of high LI taxes, city area wide recessionary conditions, and mediocre finishes have caught up to them.
BD Gallof has had some very good information and sources on the Islanders situation on his twitter and his NY CBS local articles. Brooklyn right now may be the best bet in spite of the arena if the Barclay Center people give Wang the kind of revenue he wants on the seating and the luxury boxes. I think if the arena is approved, Seattle is in play if the Barclays Center offer falls through or if the NHL wants to expand.
As far as the Islanders drawing on LI, I tend to think that the problem is more of the economy and a belief that they're not quite good enough to support--they filled the place up during their Stanley Cup runs, but maybe now the combination of high LI taxes, city area wide recessionary conditions, and mediocre finishes have caught up to them.
10
No way is the proposed stadium site "walking distance from both Link light rail and the Sounder train" - especially when you consider that NHL and/or NBA games will mostly take place in the evenings during winter months, when peoples concept of "walking distance" shrinks the colder and wetter the weather gets.
11
@2, @10, theres a link station right across the street from Safeco. It can't get any closer. It's less than a mile. Stop lowering what is considered 'walkable'.
12
@10: Which is part of the reason they're proposing a covered pedestrian mall along Occidental between the arena and Safeco.
And I find it hard to believe that folks who would otherwise take the train to Safeco would choose to drive to the arena rather than walk an extra two or three blocks.
And I find it hard to believe that folks who would otherwise take the train to Safeco would choose to drive to the arena rather than walk an extra two or three blocks.
13
@11 & 12 for the win. I am getting very annoyed by people who aren't sonics or NHL fans complaining about the public (guaranteed & capped) bonds. The public $200 million will be paid for by people that use the arena. The plan abides by the voter-approved I-91. It couldn't get much more fair than that. Non arena fans have no right to tell sonics fans what to do with their money. Oh and by the Way who paid for the stadium the Sounders play in... Hmm can't remember... (not bashing them, I am a fan, just pointing out the hypocrisy in Sounders fans bashing this arena plan)...
14
@9,
In my heart of hearts, I think I probably agree with you that Portland would struggle to support a franchise on it's own, even if there's evidence to suggest otherwise.
http://www.bizjournals.com/portland/blog…
I guess in my goofball fantasy reality though, what I'd really like to see is a high speed rail option that'd serve the two cities and give us a real & unique regional/cultural identity. Guy can dream can't he?
In my heart of hearts, I think I probably agree with you that Portland would struggle to support a franchise on it's own, even if there's evidence to suggest otherwise.
http://www.bizjournals.com/portland/blog…
I guess in my goofball fantasy reality though, what I'd really like to see is a high speed rail option that'd serve the two cities and give us a real & unique regional/cultural identity. Guy can dream can't he?
15
@13, why some people fear pushing back against the notion that the public should have to front any expense associated with this is beyond me. The billionaire boys' club of owners has plenty money and will make plenty more. They can darn well kiss their own asses; we shouldn't worry they'll run away if we decline the honor.
16
@14, Dont get me wrong, I'd be more than happy to drive to Portland for the NHL if they acquired a franchise, but yep while they have numbers population wise, they probably don't have the large numbers of high wage/moderate wage professionals that can manage the NHL prices. Plus they don't have enough moneybags to hit on that want to buy a franchise besides Paul Allen.
I believe there are one or two groups in the Seattle area that want to bring a franchise here plus the Chicago Wolves guy Levin.
I believe there are one or two groups in the Seattle area that want to bring a franchise here plus the Chicago Wolves guy Levin.
17
#3
By Train
LONG ISLAND RAILROAD: 516-822-5477 / 718-217-5477
Nassau Coliseum is located near 2 Long Island Railroad train stations; Westbury & Hempstead. To get to the venue from the station, you will need to take a taxi cab which will be about a 5-10 minute ride. *There is no train stop for Nassau Coliseum; you must take a bus or a taxi to the venue from any train station.
http://www.nassaucoliseum.com/ViewArticl…
18
And who's going to pay for that? Certainly not the city which is already going to be saddled with a $200 million bond and no new revenue since all arena proceeds will pay off that bond.
And you have no right to tell us we have to pay higher property taxes to benefit multimillionaires.
which is part of the reason they're proposing a covered pedestrian mall along Occidental between the arena and Safeco.
And who's going to pay for that? Certainly not the city which is already going to be saddled with a $200 million bond and no new revenue since all arena proceeds will pay off that bond.
Non arena fans have no right to tell sonics fans what to do with their money.
And you have no right to tell us we have to pay higher property taxes to benefit multimillionaires.
19
Nassau Coliseum
(Special Non-Escorted Package)
For Travel on Nassau Coliseum Event Dates Only
Take the Train to the Game for NY Islanders Hockey, or to any concerts, shows and events held at Nassau Coliseum.
Package includes discount round-trip rail to/from Garden City Station, and vouchers for Garden City Taxi to/from the Coliseum. Taxi vouchers are valid only with Garden City Taxi. Please adhere to Getting There instructions below.
http://www.mta.info/lirr/getaways/LongIs…
20
@11, @12:
In what world is "up and over a gargantuan rail overpass, then down, around, between, and under a labyrinth of highway access ramps, then miss your train because the crossing gates to the center platform lower comically early" translate to you as "right across the street"?
An unpleasant walk is an unpleasant walk, and this proposal adds additional distance to what is already an unpleasant walk. I use the train to the stadiums, but I fully understand why many don't. (Meanwhile, I always take the bus to the Showbox SoDo in the winter, which is how far south the stadium proposal actually is. Buses will not scale for 18,000 attendees.)
In what world is "up and over a gargantuan rail overpass, then down, around, between, and under a labyrinth of highway access ramps, then miss your train because the crossing gates to the center platform lower comically early" translate to you as "right across the street"?
An unpleasant walk is an unpleasant walk, and this proposal adds additional distance to what is already an unpleasant walk. I use the train to the stadiums, but I fully understand why many don't. (Meanwhile, I always take the bus to the Showbox SoDo in the winter, which is how far south the stadium proposal actually is. Buses will not scale for 18,000 attendees.)
21
@11, @12, covered pedestrian malls are godawful blights, and an attempt to further privatize our streets. And it is you, @11, who is trying to redefine "walkable" to mean "well, yes, you could walk it". The top of Mt. Everest is "walkable"; the stadium district is "walkable" from the U District if you've got enough time. But by the standards of people who know what they're talking about, like @2, it's outside the limit of what urban planners mean when they say "walkable".
I love the idea that in the future Seattle will be a series of featureless covered walkways across freeways, and people will be so excited because it's sports.
@13, I'm a Sounders fan, and I use that stadium, but I opposed it when it was proposed and voted against it.
I love the idea that in the future Seattle will be a series of featureless covered walkways across freeways, and people will be so excited because it's sports.
@13, I'm a Sounders fan, and I use that stadium, but I opposed it when it was proposed and voted against it.
22
How many fans, or non-fans for that matter, have gotten off a Link train at Stadium Station or SODO Station and walked the entire distance to the Arena site? After dark? In the rain?
If it's such a short and walkable walk, then let's give it a try. Goldy, do you want to organize this for us?
If it's such a short and walkable walk, then let's give it a try. Goldy, do you want to organize this for us?
23
#22
Here's what the walk would be from Sodo Station to what I think is the NBA/NHL site:
http://goo.gl/maps/QD3A
Seems like it would almost be closer to walk from Stadium Station.
Sounder would require backtracking of course, or a bus (or taxi -- like with the Islanders at Nassau Coliseum).
Here's what the walk would be from Sodo Station to what I think is the NBA/NHL site:
http://goo.gl/maps/QD3A
Seems like it would almost be closer to walk from Stadium Station.
Sounder would require backtracking of course, or a bus (or taxi -- like with the Islanders at Nassau Coliseum).
27
I was raised an Islanders fan and there is a reason I don't follow hockey anymore. The 20 years of god damned failure might just have something to do with the low attendance. And Islanders fans are pretty much restricted to Long Island. Even most Long Island natives are rangers fans at this point. I mention I'm for the Islanders and I get laughed at, or people grimace and and say "oh Christ".
28
Getting people in and out of the existing stadiums to and from transit relies on an overlay called the Stadium Transition Area Overlay District. You put a third stadium in that overlay, what then? Walk across the BNSF main line in the dark and rain, to get a half mile to parking? Get real.
Steinbrueck nailed it. As usual, no one here is listening. Because McGinn managed to bribe his progressive base with promises. (Right Tim Harris?)
Steinbrueck nailed it. As usual, no one here is listening. Because McGinn managed to bribe his progressive base with promises. (Right Tim Harris?)
30
Are people honestly arguing that the stations are too far away from the stadiums? Most people park farther away from the stadiums than the stations are.
32
@21 So going to a gate at an airport is un-walkable? The upper section of the kingdome?
It may not be the most pleasent walk but I really don't see how it could get any closer and frankly I think it's sad that people bitch about walking one mile and even compare it to climbing a moutain.
You're gonna to sit for the next three hours, a little stroll will do wonders for you.
It may not be the most pleasent walk but I really don't see how it could get any closer and frankly I think it's sad that people bitch about walking one mile and even compare it to climbing a moutain.
You're gonna to sit for the next three hours, a little stroll will do wonders for you.
33
You guys obviously have not driven around Long Island. It's nothing but traffic 24-7. The arenas in NJ are similarly car centric, but they are at least at the junction of several major highways to disperse that traffic onto highways that aren't chronically jammed outside of rush hour.
The other thing to remember is that NYC is full of transplants who'd love to go see that one game where their old team comes to town. Right now they can choose to take a single subway ride to MSG or the PATH train over to Jersey, or figure out how in the hell a Manhattanite without a car can figure out how to get to the middle of Long Island and back. Which do you think they choose?
The other thing to remember is that NYC is full of transplants who'd love to go see that one game where their old team comes to town. Right now they can choose to take a single subway ride to MSG or the PATH train over to Jersey, or figure out how in the hell a Manhattanite without a car can figure out how to get to the middle of Long Island and back. Which do you think they choose?
34
@31 Just what the fuck is the point you think you're making with your disjointed and incoherent dross? That you're most likely too fat and lazy to walk from the rail stations to a new arena?
35
@31 Nobody rides the fucking bus to Nassau Colosseum. NOBODY.
Place is a shit hole in the middle of a parking lot between a couple of freeways. Last time I was there there were puddles a few inches deep on the concourse.
Also, no one goes because they have sucked ever since the dynasty that won 4 titles in a row 30 years ago.
Place is a shit hole in the middle of a parking lot between a couple of freeways. Last time I was there there were puddles a few inches deep on the concourse.
Also, no one goes because they have sucked ever since the dynasty that won 4 titles in a row 30 years ago.
36
@29:
Philadelphia to Nassau County in an hour????
Maybe by helicopter. I'd be amazed if anything land-based could make the trip in even twice that amount of time.
It's about 90 miles from Center City to Midtown. Then a change of train or bus (plus associated wait-time) at Penn Station or Port Authority, and finally the sloooow trip to wherever the hell Nassau Coliseum is located.
Philadelphia to Nassau County in an hour????
Maybe by helicopter. I'd be amazed if anything land-based could make the trip in even twice that amount of time.
It's about 90 miles from Center City to Midtown. Then a change of train or bus (plus associated wait-time) at Penn Station or Port Authority, and finally the sloooow trip to wherever the hell Nassau Coliseum is located.
37
@29 No the Flyers are NOT a NY team. And Philly is at least 2 hours from Manhttan given the best of traffic. And we're glad you moved away, you are obviously an idiot.
38
@37,
No shit, Philly isn't a NY team. Find me where I said that dongwad. I said the region was oversaturated by NHL teams, as evidenced by the fact that the Islanders don't draw (and sure you can make the case that they don't draw b/c they suck. Though a decent fanbase supports their team regardless.)
@36, you're right -- was definitely underestimating the commute, though 90 miles on the turnpike is imminently doable in an hour & a half.
No shit, Philly isn't a NY team. Find me where I said that dongwad. I said the region was oversaturated by NHL teams, as evidenced by the fact that the Islanders don't draw (and sure you can make the case that they don't draw b/c they suck. Though a decent fanbase supports their team regardless.)
@36, you're right -- was definitely underestimating the commute, though 90 miles on the turnpike is imminently doable in an hour & a half.
39
It has been absolutely riveting to watch Goldy, normally an unwavering defender of the public interest, roll over and offer his wallet (and all of ours) at the mere mention of heavily padded men with sticks skating around a room constructed from a new recipe of snake oil.
Cumulative economic data disproving any link between stadium construction and economic growth? Ignored.
Precedent of multiple defunct (Kingdome) or "inadequate" (KeyArena) facilities on which we still own debt? Dismissed.
Snake oil? Swallowed.
Cumulative economic data disproving any link between stadium construction and economic growth? Ignored.
Precedent of multiple defunct (Kingdome) or "inadequate" (KeyArena) facilities on which we still own debt? Dismissed.
Snake oil? Swallowed.
40
Not that it's relevant, @37 and @38, but FYI:
30th Street Station and Midtown Manhattan are only 65-70 minute from one another on the ACELA, or 85 minutes on the Amtrak Regional train.
30th Street Station and Midtown Manhattan are only 65-70 minute from one another on the ACELA, or 85 minutes on the Amtrak Regional train.
42
Finally (and with apologies for the fully off-topic threadjack) consider the hypothetical scenario in which the Flyers vacate Philly for greener pastures. Does anyone really think there's not going to be a significant number of Philadelphians regularly making a trip north to watch hockey? If so, then you don't know shit about hockey (@ 37, I think this applies to you.)
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