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Wednesday, May 30, 2012

Three Dead and Two Critically Injured in Shooting at Cafe Racer, One Killed in Shooting Near Town Hall, Suspect Ian Stawicki Shoots Himself in West Seattle, Believed Responsible for Both Incidents

Posted by on Wed, May 30, 2012 at 6:00 PM

Four people have been killed today in two shooting incidents in Seattle—one shooting on Roosevelt at Cafe Racer, the other shooting in downtown Seattle near Town Hall. The suspected gunman shot himself in West Seattle this afternoon. He was taken to Harborview and is in critical condition. Scroll down for the latest, scroll past for other news and posts.

The scene near Cafe Racer. (In the background with green sign.)
  • Goldy
  • The scene near Cafe Racer, which is in the background with the light green sign. (Click to enlarge.)

Via the SPD Twitter feed:

Picture_55.png

The SPD Twitter feed adds that there are "multiple shooting victims" and that the suspect "was seen running away from the scene northbound. He was armed with a gun." The Seattle Times, citing a law enforcement source, says "there may be 5 victims." And the SPD confirms: five victims, two of them dead.

11:37 a.m. Another shooting, this one downtown:

Picture_58.png

Picture_59.png

The SPD says of the downtown shooting, "1 female shot."

11:55 a.m. A license plate, via the SPD, for the car allegedly involved in the suspected carjacking downtown:

Picture_60.png

The Seattle Times says the downtown shooting occurred "in the parking lot by Town Hall."

12:04 p.m. Police have "recovered" the vehicle involved in the downtown shooting. Cienna reports from the scene of the downtown shooting that the victim, a woman, was shot in the head and has died.

Detective Mark Jamieson, talking to reporters at 8th and Seneca.
  • Cienna Madrid
  • Detective Mark Jamieson, talking to reporters at 8th and Seneca.
12:20 p.m.: Cienna reports from 8th and Seneca:

Witnesses saw a man and a woman in a disturbance in the parking lot behind Town Hall. The witnesses saw a man pull out a gun, and then he shot her in the head. The Fire Department responded and took her to Harborview, where she died. The man left in the Mercedes that was mentioned on the SPD Twitter feed earlier, which was recovered a short time ago in West Seattle. No description of the suspect beyond adult male, but they're interviewing witnesses and working on a fuller description.

Cienna also interviewed a witness, Ibrahim Frishak, who was pressure-washing the sidewalk across the street when he heard the shots. He tells Cienna it was one gunshot, and then he saw a couple in their late 30s run across the street to the victim before the suspected shooter pulled out of the parking lot. The couple tried to give the victim CPR and were joined by another witness. At the same time, the shooter peeled out of the parking lot, driving very fast. "I just got back a week ago from Libya on vacation to visit relatives," Frishak told Cienna. He said everyone over there carries guns, but added: "Now I think Libya is safer than Seattle."

12:37 p.m. From Brendan Kiley:

Teresa Wippel of Seattle Public Schools says that Roosevelt High School is "on lockdown" and that Eckstein Middle School and Greenlake Elementary are on "shelters-in-place" status, per the suggestion of the Seattle Police Department.

"Shelters-in-place" means that activity is continuing as normal but the doors are locked and staff are keeping watch over the perimeter. "Lockdown," she said, means that students have been advised to keep away from the windows and away from the doors, with the lights off.

Wippel added that parents who have children in those schools are advised to stay away and not pick up their children until further notice.

12:55 p.m. West Seattle blog is all over the search in that neighborhood, where a car allegedly connected to the downtown shooting was found. "Police now have SWAT units in the area but there is no word of an arrest yet..." Police Blotter says that a gun was found in the SUV.

1:06 p.m. Goldy reports from near Cafe Racer that the rumor in the neighborhood is that the police were already arriving when the gunshots occurred—the inference being that there was some sort of noticeable disturbance under way before the shooting began.

Meanwhile, the SPD, via its Blotter, provides some more details on this morning's events at Cafe Racer and advises residents of the University District to "keep their doors and windows locked, and to call police if you find any indications someone has tried to break in to your home."

1:31 p.m. Goldy reports:

Mike Kirkham, who works at The Fish Store on Roosevelt, just down the street from Cafe Racer, was talking with some customers near the front door of his shop this morning when he heard two muffled shots. His door was open, and he looked down the block and saw at least three cop cars already there, as well as people running away from the scene. "I figured the cops had caught had caught the shooter," Kirkham told Goldy.

They hadn't.

Goldy also saw some people walk out of the roped off area around Cafe Racer just now, one woman in tears, others with her. He heard one of them say they were regulars at the cafe. None of them wanted to talk to reporters.

1:48 p.m. In a post below, Grant Brissey writes about what Cafe Racer is like on a typical Wednesday morning. "Everyone knows just about everyone else by first name," he writes. Go read the whole thing.

1:58 p.m. Dominic Holden reports:

On the top floor of City Hall, Assistant Police Chief Nick Metz is briefing Mayor Mike McGinn on today's shootings, and mayoral staff have just announced a press conference at 3:30 p.m. That event will feature McGinn and SPD brass, but not Chief John Diaz, who is attending an unfortunately timed policing conference this week.

2:20 p.m. KOMO 4 is reporting that one more person has died from the Roosevelt shooting, while KIRO 7 is reporting on Twitter that two more people have died from the shooting. KIRO corrects itself: Three dead from Roosevelt shooting. And the SPD confirms:

Picture_61.png

2:30 p.m. Cienna, listening to the police scanner, says that police are currently searching an area in West Seattle around Dakota and 30th, and that the suspect from the shooting near Town Hall is believed to be in the area.

2:39 p.m. Dominic reports:

I've just spoken to Seattle City Council president Sally Clark, who—along with the rest of the council—has been peppered with official text messages with updates on the shootings for the past several hours. I asked her about a meme that's been popular among conservative commentators and even some cops: They contend that overreaction to the department's excessive use of force has resulted in a culture in which criminals can shoot with impunity. (For example, from the Seattle Times last week: "A police officer wrote to say to expect more violence as long as the force has one arm tied behind its back by the feds and the media.")

President Clark responds: "I don't believe that there are Seattle police officers stepping back from their job. I just don't think that is a widely held view at all. Police officers are hit hard by the violence in their communities."

Clark isn't immediately seeking any legislative gun restrictions, she adds, noting that courts "slapped back" the city after former mayor Greg Nickels attempted to ban firearms on city-owned property in 2009. That said, Clark continued, "We are frustrated by the easy access to firearms and people resorting to the use of firearms."

The council's public safety committee, led by Council Member Bruce Harrell, will be meeting on June 6 to discuss the issue of gun violence, gun laws, and concerns about so-called "de-policing."

2:49 p.m. Goldy says that according to regulars and people who work there, Cafe Racer had a video recording system and the shooter may have been caught on camera.

3:08 p.m. Brendan reports:

According to SPD data, today's four killings (so far) bring Seattle's year-to-date handgun homicide total to 20.

By this time last year, there had only been three.

That is an increase of over 650%.

There have been 33 shootings overall this year (fatal and non-fatal) and 14 related arrests.

3:10 p.m. Police have a photo of the suspect in the Cafe Racer shooting and are now sharing it with officers, according to the police scanner. Meanwhile, Paul Constant says "the culture of fear is alive and well at the Seattle Times." Cienna notes that a mayoral press conference will be starting shortly (live video here). And Town Hall has cancelled tonight's event:

We here at Town Hall Seattle are deeply shaken and disturbed by the chilling events that transpired in our neighborhood and at Café Racer earlier today. We want to assure our friends and neighbors that all of the Town Hall staff are safe, although deeply traumatized by the violence that occurred in the parking lot adjacent to our building. Contrary to many reports the incident did not occur at Town Hall but understandably close enough for our building to be used as a point of reference. Seattle’s recent rash of violence touches us all, but none so deeply as those whose lives are tragically cut short. Our thoughts and prayers are with the families of the victims of today’s violence.

In light of the situation, we feel it would be inappropriate to continue with today’s event with Terry McDermott, scheduled for 7:30pm Downstairs at Town Hall. All ticket holders will be issued a full refund... Additionally, our staff is working on a program to provide an outlet for community discourse around violence, guns, and the string of incidents of which this is only the most recent. More information on developing programs will be available when finalized.

3:27 p.m. Police have released two photos, taken from security camera footage at Cafe Racer, of the suspected shooter in that incident.

The SPD says: The suspect is a white male, approximately 30 years old, wearing a dark short cap, with well-groomed dark hair, a neat full beard, wearing a light blue jacket. He is considered armed and dangerous. If you recognize this man, please immediately contact the SPD tip line at 206-233-5000 or call 911.
  • Seattle Police Blotter
  • The SPD says: "The suspect is a white male, approximately 30 years old, wearing a dark short cap, with well-groomed dark hair, a neat full beard, wearing a light blue jacket. He is considered armed and dangerous. If you recognize this man, please immediately contact the SPD tip line at 206-233-5000 or call 911." Click to enlarge.

3:43 p.m. Goldy, still at the scene of the Cafe Racer shooting, just ran into Washington Ceasefire Board President Ralph Fascitelli.

"I blame the Democrats, I blame Chris Gregoire, and I blame Frank Chopp," Fascitelli told Goldy. "Frank Chopp is killing us. He won't even let this issue come up in committee. Frank Chopp has blood on his hands. Guns plus anger equals gun deaths."

3:55 p.m. We're hearing on the police scanner that someone's been shot at 37th and Raymond in West Seattle. West Seattle Blog is hearing the same.

Now there's a report on Twitter of an arrest in the Roosevelt area, and of a shooting of one of the suspects in West Seattle.

"We do have a suspect," Assistant Police Chief Jim Pugel is saying at the press conference. "We believe it's the suspect from the North End shooting."

Christopher Frizzelle calls in to say that it sounded, at the press conference, as if the man shot in West Seattle is the Cafe Racer shooter. But, as Pugel pointed out at the press conference, this is happening right now and still a bit confused.

4:09 p.m. Pugel, at the press conference, is now confirming that that person who was shot just now in West Seattle appears to be the Cafe Racer shooter. "He apparently knelt down in the middle of the street and put the gun to his head and shot himself," Pugel said.

4:30 p.m. Dominic reports from City Hall that police are exploring the possibility that one man is responsible for both of today's shooting incidents:

Assistant Chief Pugel explained that the prime suspect of the Cafe Racer murders has shot himself in West Seattle, less than a mile from the location where the downtown murder suspect abandoned a car this afternoon. That raises the possibility that the same person committed both crimes.

The man had been spotted by undercover officers on the street in West Seattle, Pugel explained. When SWAT officers moved in, the man matching the Cafe Racer suspect's description—similar facial hair, clothes, and build—"apparently knelt down in the middle of the street, put the gun to his head, and shot himself," Pugel said.

Police are considering the possibility that the same person committed both crimes.

SPD Sergeant Sean Whitcomb noted that the first 911 call came in from the Roosevelt neighborhood at 11:00 a.m. and the second call cam from downtown at 11:30 a.m., adding that there is "plenty of time to get from point A to point B. It is entirely possible that it is [one suspect]. We are recognizing that it is within the realm of possibility."

Pugel notes that the proximity is "suspicious."

But police are not treating the crimes are related, necessarily—they are maintaining the manhunt for the downtown shooter.

And, via SPD's Twitter feed:

Picture_64.png

4:41 p.m. Pugel, at the ongoing City Hall press conference, says the suspect who shot himself in West Seattle is now dead. In addition, Dominic reports:

Assistant Chief Jim Pugel said police now believe that one suspect did indeed commit all the murders. "Unfortunately these are all connected," Pugel said.

While police say the motive for the Roosevelt shooting remains unclear, Pugel said that the downtown shooting was the result of a "random" carjacking by the Cafe Racer shooter.

"We've just done further examination of the suspect, his clothing, and items that he had on him that were visible, and one of the items that witness saw at 8th and Seneca is on him now." That, Pugel said, "combined with similar calibers—different manufacturers, but similar calibers—of ejected shell casings" leads investigators to believe both incidents trace to the same person, Pugel explained. "We now feel confident in connecting the two. We will continue to close that up scientifically."

Police still do not know how the man got from Cafe Racer to 8th and Seneca. The man had many previous addresses, Pugel said, but he didn't know if the man had a criminal record. Pugel said that the witnesses to the Cafe Racer shooting are "extremely traumatized," but interviews are ongoing and police are trying to identify the motive.

4:58 p.m. Jen Graves reports on the condition of the survivors:

Two men remain in critical condition, in the ICU, at Harborview. One was released from surgery about a half hour ago; no surgery is planned for the other. Both are in their 30s/40s. No other information about them was available, according to spokeswoman Susan Greg.

5:11 p.m. The SPD, via its Twitter feed, says:

Picture_65.png

5:26 The Seattle Times names one of the people shot at Cafe Racer as chef Leonard Meuse, and says he's out of surgery and expected to survive.

5:50 p.m. The SPD now says the suspected shooter is not dead. Rather, he's "still alive and receiving treatment at Harborview Medical Center."

5:55 p.m. SeattlePI.com reports the name of the suspected shooter as "Ian Stawicki, a 40-year-old from Ellensburg." And the Seattle Times has spoken with Stawicki's family, who say: "We could see this coming."

6:02 p.m. Christopher Frizzelle on the craziest press conference in memory.

6:11 p.m. Harborview tells Jen Graves that the suspect, Ian Stawicki, is in critical condition.

 

Comments (217) RSS

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Keister Button 1
I hope this did not happen inside Cafe Racer.
Posted by Keister Button on May 30, 2012 at 11:22 AM · Report this
Karlheinz Arschbomber 2
Second Amendment! All hail.
Posted by Karlheinz Arschbomber http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arschbombe on May 30, 2012 at 11:23 AM · Report this
3
@1 it did.
Posted by StuckInUtah on May 30, 2012 at 11:25 AM · Report this
I Heart Flan! 4
@1: I think it did.
Posted by I Heart Flan! on May 30, 2012 at 11:25 AM · Report this
5

Panic in Seatroit, I asked for an autograph
Posted by Supreme Ruler Of The Universe http://_ on May 30, 2012 at 11:28 AM · Report this
rejemy 6
Where's Green Lake Watch when you need them?
Posted by rejemy on May 30, 2012 at 11:29 AM · Report this
Gern Blanston 7
KOMO is saying that two of the victims have died, and this guy is still on the loose, headed northbound.
Posted by Gern Blanston on May 30, 2012 at 11:32 AM · Report this
Rotten666 8
2 confirmed dead.
Posted by Rotten666 on May 30, 2012 at 11:32 AM · Report this
icouldliveinhope 9
This is so awful. AND AT CAFE RACER? That is such an amazing, comfortable, safe place. Usually. Lordy this is awful/fucked up/what the fuck.
Posted by icouldliveinhope on May 30, 2012 at 11:33 AM · Report this
Keister Button 10
I am grieved. It reads as hollow but I've been going to Cafe Racer since 2005 and I know (please let it not be 'knew') some staff, the owner, and some regulars.
Posted by Keister Button on May 30, 2012 at 11:34 AM · Report this
11
Terrifying.
Posted by Levislade http://ballofwax.org on May 30, 2012 at 11:35 AM · Report this
Ziggity 12
And another shooting just reported on 8th and Spring on First Hill.

The fuck's going on?
Posted by Ziggity on May 30, 2012 at 11:37 AM · Report this
care bear 14
Am I just noticing more shootings recently or are there actually more happening than normal?
Posted by care bear on May 30, 2012 at 11:39 AM · Report this
biffp 16
Roosevelt is a little sketchy sometimes, but I never contemplated people being shot at Cafe Racer. There needs to be some immediate action on caring weapons in Seattle. This is not acceptable, and I don't care to hear how it's not the guns - it's definitely the guns and the laws. There were enough incidents over the weekend, including a robbery at gunpoint at 50th.
Posted by biffp on May 30, 2012 at 11:42 AM · Report this
17
Without any additional context I don't think it's a good idea to go off on another guns vs no guns debate. We don't know that the assailant had targets in mind, if he/she would have done it whether they had a gun or knife or bomb or whatever, etc.

Jumping immediately to conclusions without other info is not only a waste of effort but usually looks real stupid once more details emerge.
Posted by Gomez http://misterstevengomez.com on May 30, 2012 at 11:45 AM · Report this
18
SPD just posted another bit about the 8th & Seneca shooting:

"Male in 8th and Seneca shooting described as a white male, 35 yoa, blonde crew cut, driving a black Mercedes SUV. Armed with a gun."

Great. Two nutjobs with guns and willing to use them out & about.
Posted by eys on May 30, 2012 at 11:45 AM · Report this
19
@12: 8th & Spring: Reference?
Posted by Phil M http://twitter.com/pmocek on May 30, 2012 at 11:46 AM · Report this
Jessica 20
@14: from what I understand, last year we had 21 shooting homicides. Including today, we've had 18 so far this year. It's been ridiculous.
Posted by Jessica on May 30, 2012 at 11:46 AM · Report this
21
Roosevelt is not at all sketchy, this was a domestic violence issue that escalated.
Posted by stuffandthings on May 30, 2012 at 11:48 AM · Report this
22
I love that the SPD Blotter boasted about an "emphasis patrol" finding a guy dealing drugs on 2nd near Pike/Pine this weekend. Congratulations guys! Come around Downtown more often!
Posted by UberAlles on May 30, 2012 at 11:48 AM · Report this
23
@17: True, those drive-by stabbings are a real problem.
Posted by Orv on May 30, 2012 at 11:48 AM · Report this
24
WTF? So sick of the guns and the cowards!
At least both the shooters have been Caucasian, so we are spared the bulk of the racist comments that usually accompany the news articles.
Condolences to the victims and their families. : (
Posted by StuckInUtah on May 30, 2012 at 11:48 AM · Report this
Gern Blanston 25
Seems like a good day to be a shut-in.
Posted by Gern Blanston on May 30, 2012 at 11:49 AM · Report this
CC-Rob 26
I'm happy to jump to a logical conclusion: The easy access to firearms is the problem. Compare our homicide rates to the rest of the civilized world and you know things are fucked up.

Posted by CC-Rob on May 30, 2012 at 11:52 AM · Report this
MacCrocodile 27
@23 - Oh, and don't forget that father of two who was accidentally stabbed when two people standing on either side of him got into a knife fight.
Posted by MacCrocodile http://maccrocodile.com/ on May 30, 2012 at 11:53 AM · Report this
28
Hmm. Shootings suck, but this sure feels like SPD trying to pull a Bush administration, fanning the flames of fear, to make us feel like we really really need them to protect us from scary 'others', rather than we need them to knuckle under to the DOJ and learn the Bill of Rights.

My opinion will change if it turns out these shooters really were on a rampage shooting whomever their paths crossed. Otherwise, the boys in blue have just figured out how to use Twitter to ratchet up fear city wide, for highly localized crime. Convenient.
Posted by Mike Silva on May 30, 2012 at 11:53 AM · Report this
29
Awesome. Not only are people dead and injured, but now the gun control debate can divide otherwise polite and cooperative neighbors and friends...
Posted by puzld on May 30, 2012 at 11:58 AM · Report this
care bear 31
Thanks, @20.

Jesus H. Christ on a popsicle stick, why do we let all of these people have guns?
Posted by care bear on May 30, 2012 at 12:00 PM · Report this
lark 32
Bloody unfortunate. I like Café Racer. I go there to see live jazz or R & R from time to time. It's walking distance from my place. This is senseless.

What’s going on in the city? Sigh.
Posted by lark on May 30, 2012 at 12:04 PM · Report this
33
@28, um I was in high school in Pittsburgh when a few shooting rampages happened. They called us into the auditorium, told us what was going on and they locked us in the building. No going outside at all until the shooter was picked up by the cops. Lots of businesses locked down. Homes locked down. It's a benefit of technology and communication that the police can disseminate this information in many forums in little time. When a shooter is at large I think it's completely and totally unfair to accuse a police department of attempting to ratchet up the fear. You know what ratchets up the fear? Fucking shooters running around the city. You know what would be totally irresponsible of the police? Not fucking telling the citizenry.

I know there's not a lot of love for the SPD here (or, it seems in Seattle in general. I live in NYC so I can't speak with any authority about it) but you're being an asshole. The right, reasonable and responsible thing to do when something like this happens is to let people know about it. If I lived, worked or hung out in these neighborhoods I'd want to know. Shooting rampages are NOT isolated incidents. And anyone and everyone in the vicinity is at risk.
Posted by moosefan on May 30, 2012 at 12:07 PM · Report this
biffp 34
@21, obviously didn't say all of Roosevelt was sketchy, used to have a store on Roosevelt. It's typical Seattle to pretend that any exception to a rule renders the rule false. Knives are also dangerous. That doesn't in any affect the conclusion that guns are more dangerous. They are easier to use, and shootings are more often fatal. There is quite obviously a problem with guns in Seattle, and your rights to form a militia will not be harmed in the ensuring that my kids can go to school in the neighborhood safely.
Posted by biffp on May 30, 2012 at 12:10 PM · Report this
Theodore Gorath 35
@28:

And maybe, the shooters are actually the police themselves! I have no evidence for this, but I want it to be true, so it is!

I bet the police kidnapped the Lindbergh baby too, and the Area 51 UFO crash was the police, who also filmed the fake moon landing.

And 9/11.
Posted by Theodore Gorath on May 30, 2012 at 12:11 PM · Report this
rara avis 36
Shocking. And moving to my hood, maybe?

http://westseattleblog.com/2012/05/break…
Posted by rara avis on May 30, 2012 at 12:12 PM · Report this
Will in Seattle 37
UW alerts agree with @3. Remember guns don't kill people, bullets in guns shot in your face kill people.
Posted by Will in Seattle http://www.facebook.com/WillSeattle on May 30, 2012 at 12:18 PM · Report this
stinkbug 38
Apart from all the terribleness, it's interesting to see/hear what the media is calling the area. Seems like now they've stopped calling it the u-dist and are calling it roosevelt.
Posted by stinkbug on May 30, 2012 at 12:18 PM · Report this
39
@38: There was some confusion initially -- first report I heard said it was at 45th, which would explain why it was initially reported as U District.
Posted by Orv on May 30, 2012 at 12:22 PM · Report this
TortoiseTurtle 40
@35, or maybe they consistently ignore reports of police brutality and excessive use of force, and systematically delay investigations into claims? Or, or, maybe they shoot and kill harmless transients and then lie about it after the fact? Or maybe, maybe they actively harass and abuse members minority races... or selectively enforce bullshit laws disproportionately under the guise of officers' discretion!

Oh wait, yours was funnier because it wasn't true.
Posted by TortoiseTurtle http://slog.thestranger.com on May 30, 2012 at 12:23 PM · Report this
biffp 41
The victim of the carjacking has died so that is three dead from gun violence in Seattle today. There are still two in critical and one in serious condition. Japan would have 1 death for this population for a year, and it happened on one day in Seattle.
Posted by biffp on May 30, 2012 at 12:25 PM · Report this
McGee 42
@40 Facebook Like!
Posted by McGee on May 30, 2012 at 12:26 PM · Report this
stinkbug 43
@39: Well to some, anything south of NE Ravenna Blvd in that area is the u-dist.
Posted by stinkbug on May 30, 2012 at 12:27 PM · Report this
stinkbug 44
(see File:Seattle_-_Roosevelt_map.jpg">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Seattl… )
Posted by stinkbug on May 30, 2012 at 12:28 PM · Report this
45
Maybe some of you could hold off grinding your axes a sec. Jesus fuck.
Posted by gloomy gus on May 30, 2012 at 12:29 PM · Report this
stinkbug 46
woah, I guess this system doesn't like wacky wiki links. let's try http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/co…
Posted by stinkbug on May 30, 2012 at 12:30 PM · Report this
Rotten666 47
@41 And Honduras would have 430 deaths for this population for a year.

So count your blessings.
Posted by Rotten666 on May 30, 2012 at 12:31 PM · Report this
biffp 48
@47, good point, I think the US aspires to be a third-world pinneapple democracy.
Posted by biffp on May 30, 2012 at 12:34 PM · Report this
biffp 49
And 'yes' I have visited Honduras, and know the conditions there.
Posted by biffp on May 30, 2012 at 12:35 PM · Report this
Rotten666 50
@48 One can dream.
Posted by Rotten666 on May 30, 2012 at 12:37 PM · Report this
Theodore Gorath 51
@40: I was pretty specifically referring to the bullshit, unsupported conspiracy theory put out by #28, that the police were only telling the public about a shooter on the loose in order to create untoward fear for political gain.

Perhaps your police do those things, and perhaps there is evidence for it, but that is a wholly other issue.

See, since his point was conspiracy theory bullshit, I was responding with other conspiracy theory bullshit that is just as supported as his claims.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad…

You can certainly read words, but perhaps a bit of comprehension would help too. Great job in realizing that my conspiracy statements were not true though!
Posted by Theodore Gorath on May 30, 2012 at 12:39 PM · Report this
53
@33 - I spent most of my young adult life in DC and NYC (99-2007). Like most people who lived in those cities at the time, I had a reluctant respect for the police. They were kinda corrupt and kinda a**holish, but they had a tough job and I, like most people, respected that.

Not surprisingly, I was shocked at just how toxic the relationship was between the SPD and her residents when I first moved here. I'm not a law and order guy by any stretch, but the folks here just seemed to hate the cops. At first I thought it was disrespectful and over the line. After 5 years in this city I began to realize that the hatred wasn't completely unwarranted. The SPD is pretty jacked up (just ask the DOJ). More to the point, the SPD hates the residents of Seattle every bit as much as the city hates them. Take a look at that SPOG blog now and then and you'll see just how screwed up their attitude is.

Where this toxic attitude started I could not say. But it's here. And you're being a bit presumptuous to throw around accusations when you clearly have no idea what we're dealing with in Seattle.
Posted by dak7e on May 30, 2012 at 12:42 PM · Report this
Bigsfrottin 54
@Gomez,

Are you serious? Making it harder to get guns makes it safer not because of your ridiculous logic that you project on the opposing viewpoint.

Let us take your example though of him having a knife I guarantee you he would not have been able to stab 5 people without someone taking him down.

Also, the difference between the protection a car door provides to a knife attack as opposed to a gun shot is phenomenal.

And lastly just shut up, the argument against more gun control is just bologna. It's not worth trying to spew either because it's a waste of words, which there already are too many of.
Posted by Bigsfrottin on May 30, 2012 at 12:43 PM · Report this
55
@33 And you are being a clueless dipshit. The SPD is on the ropes. Maybe you don't read the paper from your panic room, but the SPD did just pull a bullshit leak about how the DOJ's remedies were going to cost the city $41 million dollars. When in all likelihood, there is no fucking way that is the case.

Seeing this department as not being a political entity with an agenda is moronic. Just because your brain can't handle the fine detail, and big picture doesn't mean I'm a moron.

And actually, you are so busy being an hysteric, you don't even get the fine detail right. If there is a shooter in a neighborhood, you know a really good way of keeping people out of the area and alerting locals? A police cordon and local announcement (whether by loudspeaker or other means). That's how it's been done since times before Twitter. I'm willing to bet it was done today too. Sure, I suppose using Twitter to alert a wider audience is fine, but it doesn't protect anyone that the police cordon SPD more than likely put up today did. But it might be hard to think of that when you are too busy laundering your peed pants and calling other people assholes.

The right, reasonable, and responsible thing to do when faced with a police department desperate to be loved after failing at their job...particularly in the thick of the public debate and PR campaign over that failure...is to question why they are saying what they are saying in that context. Unlike you I don't preclude their being any public safety value to their message, but you, in your child-like state, are completely disregarding if not disdaining the wider context.

Might I be wrong about SPD's motives, sure. But in Danny Westneat's column about the shooting of the Madrona dad on Cherry street, he specifically mentioned getting letters from officers that the reason shootings like this are happening is because the DOJ has tied their hands. You know because doing effective policing means having to be able to deny people their rights or summarily beat them for being brown. Not do things like hiring some people that aren't white and don't live in Issaquah to walk beats and do some community policing.

Thanks to people like you we got the Iraq War, Gitmo, and eroded civil rights at home. Open your eyes and use your brain. Thanks, asshole.
More...
Posted by Mike Silva on May 30, 2012 at 12:43 PM · Report this
Bigsfrottin 56
@27 oh and don't forget that time that 6 year old girl brought her dads cooking knife to class and stabbed 3 kids and the teacher
Posted by Bigsfrottin on May 30, 2012 at 12:45 PM · Report this
57
@35 and maybe you are a complete moron missing the point?

If you want to be a smartass, it's helpful to note the prefix is "smart" and try to be that. Otherwise you hazard looking like a dumbass. A perch not so easy to claim snark points from.
Posted by Mike Silva on May 30, 2012 at 12:48 PM · Report this
58
Oh, and someone went off the Lakeview overpass onto Eastlake.
Posted by Toe Tag on May 30, 2012 at 12:54 PM · Report this
onion 60
28 really is full of shit. s/he is suggesting that the police notifying residents of a killer on the lose is somehow wrong. i don't give a crap what else the police has done wrong - getting the word out that a killer fresh from killing is roaming around the neighborhood in a desperate mood is the RIGHT THING TO DO.
should they NOT tell us? what an absurd idea.
thank you 33.
Posted by onion on May 30, 2012 at 1:00 PM · Report this
61
Holy fucking shit. I used live right there next to the Racer.

Could one of the Stranger Writers please seek to clarify if these are separate incidents, related incidents, or we don't know. Because the shit-ass reporting here makes it impossible to tell.
Posted by tkc on May 30, 2012 at 1:00 PM · Report this
stinkbug 62
@61: From the teevees, apparently the carjacking is unrelated to the cafe racer shooting.
Posted by stinkbug on May 30, 2012 at 1:03 PM · Report this
63
@60 I'm not full of shit. When you clean up your little yellow puddle, read @55 then feel free to make an argument.
Posted by Mike Silva on May 30, 2012 at 1:05 PM · Report this
64
@55, Sorry, but I stand by my statement that accusing a police department of "ratcheting up the fear" when they're using multimedia to alert the public about a potentially dangerous situation is assholish. I defended the SPD only on this very small and specific thing.
As a rule I hate police departments. And the SPD is certainly fucked up. That doesn't mean they were doing anything wrong in this case. And I was only talking about this case.
Posted by moosefan on May 30, 2012 at 1:06 PM · Report this
65
@62 Phew. Thank you.
Posted by tkc on May 30, 2012 at 1:07 PM · Report this
Theodore Gorath 66
@57:

Yeah, it is a real mark of intelligence to claim far reaching conspiracies you have no evidence for. Take off the tinfoil hat, it is constricting the flow to your brain.

Your point was that since this "feels" like the police are fanning fear, that it must be true. Are you saying the shootings are fake, or that the police should not share this with the public? Have any proof at all?

But what you say is true, because it "feels" that way to you. You know, I heard the gub'mint puts fluoride in the drinking water as a form of mind control. It feels like it might be true so it is!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence
Posted by Theodore Gorath on May 30, 2012 at 1:09 PM · Report this
67
Based upon nothing but several news reports and living in White Center my whole life, this sounds like a vendetta/personal problem. Speculation cause I'm in between projects at work: Dude got mad at someone, got a gun, shot up the cafe. Probably killed who he hated, and took out some extra people because, hey, I'm an ass and don't care, so why not? The scum pops a bus or perhaps had a car and hits downtown before anyone knows what's what. Oh look, I-5, exit and get a new car! Carjacking, shoots the woman, steals her car, heads to, alas, a neighborhood he probably knows (either lives in or knows people). Plus it's easy: I-5, West Seattle Bridge, first exit is Delridge. Gets past the police station, freaks, dumps car and runs for the greatly-wooded area east of Delridge.

Sadness, all around. :'(
Posted by jedifarfy on May 30, 2012 at 1:09 PM · Report this
biffp 68
According to King5, three homicides in Seattle last year, 19 so far this year.
Posted by biffp on May 30, 2012 at 1:10 PM · Report this
69
@53, Fair enough. Like I said it's apparently that the relationship with the SPD and the residents of Seattle is not good. And I understand that there are some very good reasons for this. None of that means that what the SPD did in using twitter as an additional means to alert the citizenry of potential danger is wrong. Or "ratcheting up the fear". And I only took offense to that suggestion not to the hatred of the SPD in general.
Posted by moosefan on May 30, 2012 at 1:12 PM · Report this
Mahtli69 70
This incident is now on the front page at CNN.com. There must be white people among the victims.
Posted by Mahtli69 on May 30, 2012 at 1:13 PM · Report this
71
28. It's worth noting if an armed assailant is still on the loose. Though it's not likely said assailants will randomly attack anyone, it's always a distinct possibility and worth letting the public know about.
Posted by Gomez http://misterstevengomez.com on May 30, 2012 at 1:14 PM · Report this
Last of the Time Lords 72
Fair to say that if a snow storm cost Nickels a third term this crap going on in Seattle is going to cost McGinn any chance of a second term
Posted by Last of the Time Lords on May 30, 2012 at 1:24 PM · Report this
73
@55, Mike Silva wrote, "in Danny Westneat's column about the shooting of the Madrona dad on Cherry street, he specifically mentioned getting letters from officers that the reason shootings like this are happening is because the DOJ has tied their hands. You know because doing effective policing means having to be able to deny people their rights or summarily beat them for being brown. Not do things like hiring some people that aren't white and don't live in Issaquah to walk beats and do some community policing."

Interesting. Most of us would be accused of terrorism for making such threats.

I dug up the quote. On May 26, 2012, in "Shooting victim a dad just like me," Danny Westneat wrote, "A police officer wrote to say to expect more violence as long as the force has one arm tied behind its back by the feds and the media."
Posted by Phil M http://twitter.com/pmocek on May 30, 2012 at 1:24 PM · Report this
74
@ 70 We don't know that for sure, when the shootings in Tulsa happened and it was a white gunman and black victims it was on the front page Stop living in the 60s
Posted by Seattle14 on May 30, 2012 at 1:25 PM · Report this
75
@66 Yes, just like how you " feel" that what I say is a conspiracy theory. Only problem being I support what I say with an argument, and you apparently don't read, or argue, but just say "bullshit" and keep feeling. Hint: you are not the reasonable or reasoned one.
Posted by Mike Silva on May 30, 2012 at 1:26 PM · Report this
Will in Seattle 76
@72 why?

Most likely it's a car-owning white person angry at cyclists, with a gun.
Posted by Will in Seattle http://www.facebook.com/WillSeattle on May 30, 2012 at 1:27 PM · Report this
Cato the Younger Younger 77
My first reaction to this (I live in Ravenna and run in the early AM) is to buy a gun.
Posted by Cato the Younger Younger on May 30, 2012 at 1:34 PM · Report this
78
I've heard from my friend who works here that the description matches that of a mentally unstable guy employees have asked to leave the cafe a few times this week. If it does turn out that this is the case, which seems likely to me (opening fire indiscriminately on both patrons and at least one employee in a cafe doesn't seem like the work of someone with a clear head or a specific vendetta) hopefully people will consider the fact that cutting social services to severely mentally unstable folks will naturally lead to events like this becoming more commonplace.

Obviously, whether or not this turns out to be the guy, this is a terrible tragedy for everyone that is close to this community, and my heart goes out to anyone personally affected by this. Please keep it civil and compassionate y'all.
Posted by Chris Pollina http://www.eldridgegravy.com on May 30, 2012 at 1:38 PM · Report this
Ziggity 79
@55, 63: The Twitter feed was what notified the Stranger, who then published the story on Slog before the Times or P-I. People in my office saw the story, re-tweeted the SPD tweets, and also called friends and family, some of who have kids at Roosevelt and didn't know it was under lockdown. People who were going to go to that area decided not to, if not to avoid the shutdown streets, then to avoid an armed killer on the loose. In other words - it worked, and I don't see a single reason why they shouldn't use it as one of many means to inform the public.

I'm not sure what argument you're actually trying to make - you keep saying you might be wrong - but the fact that you keep referring to those arguing against it as some kind of pants-wetting ninnies kind of demonstrates the level of debate you're trying to have.

tl;dr: You're full of shit.
Posted by Ziggity on May 30, 2012 at 1:39 PM · Report this
care bear 80
@68 There were 20 homicides in Seattle last year, not 3.
Posted by care bear on May 30, 2012 at 1:40 PM · Report this
81
FYI, Roosevelt High School is now on "shelter in place" a notch down from a lockdown. The students will be let out at their regular time (around 2:20 p.m.). I saw one parent come early to get their child.

I write for the Seattle Schools Community Forum blog and live right by RHS so I went over to check. There is a police presence continuing around the school.
Posted by westello on May 30, 2012 at 1:41 PM · Report this
82
@78 Good point, but you are likely to be attacked by hysterics for trying to impart any bit of context into the discussion. The mob is drunk and thirsty for more outrage.
Posted by Mike Silva on May 30, 2012 at 1:42 PM · Report this
Andy_Squirrel 83
Unconfirmed, the two men killed at Cafe Racer were Shmootzi the Clod and Meshuguna Joe of the band God's Favorite Beefcake (also Circus Contraption). Cafe Racer super regulars (I don't think i've ever been there and not seen Shmootzi). Sad
Posted by Andy_Squirrel on May 30, 2012 at 1:48 PM · Report this
85
@55--cordon off what, exactly? The Roosevelt neighborhood? Cowen Park? This isn't someone holed up in an identified building. The shooter ran "north." The police can't run around with a loudspeaker shouting "We are looking for a shooting suspect! Watch out!"
I'm three blocks away from the Racer Cafe, and we have the doors locked. But we're not cowering in fear saying "please protect us with a brutal police state!" There are no peed pants. We're just hoping this ends soon, and glad to know about the situation and able to make informed choices about restricting entry to the building and going out or not.

Yeah, some of the police act shitty. But sometimes there's situations where the police department comes in handy--like, say, looking for a murder suspect.
Posted by fruitbat on May 30, 2012 at 1:50 PM · Report this
Will in Seattle 86
Obviously the SPD needs to profile white hipsters over 30 ... um, wait, what?
Posted by Will in Seattle http://www.facebook.com/WillSeattle on May 30, 2012 at 1:51 PM · Report this
87
This is a horrible act and the shooter regardless of cause is a coward. Please wake up fellow citizens. This is not a call for an increase in armed populace, rather, a call for firearm education and tolerance. I wrote an I anonymous over a month ago and ridiculed for my description of events. My account was as real as this one. Today I am deeply saddened for these victims and all of their friends and family. I am not a gun nut, I suppose you could call me a staunch supporter of the constitution. People like these and the one I wrote about are the outliers, statistical anomalies. Responsible gun ownership is important to maintain the rights of the populace, unfortunately some abuse these rights, and many others as well. Please, please, please(!) be safe and responsible as a gun owner, and be aware as an average citizen. I know this sounds odd coming from a proponent of an armed populace, but be patient and display empathy for your neighbor. Walk away if possible...but be prepared for anything else. I have not always been the biggest supporter of SPD, but today I am proud of our police and their swift and extensive response. Let's unite as a community and make some positive changes.
Posted by neverreadkoontzlol! on May 30, 2012 at 1:52 PM · Report this
biffp 88
@80, I'm pretty sure King 5 said 3 in all of last year, but they meant (or I should have heard) 3 in the same period of 2011. In any case, 19 in 2012 is almost equal to 20 in 2011, and today is May 30th.
Posted by biffp on May 30, 2012 at 1:52 PM · Report this
Sea Otter 90
@13 etc.

Fuck you.

No, seriously, fuck you.

There are people reading this who have lost their friends. Take your trolling somewhere else today. Please.
Posted by Sea Otter on May 30, 2012 at 2:00 PM · Report this
91
Cub @seattletimes intern @jpanzar is tweeting at people associated with Cafe Racer who have lost friends today. Where is his supervisor?

Posted by Patti on May 30, 2012 at 2:01 PM · Report this
biffp 92
@87, reasonable minds will prevail. There are obviously a number of trolls on here who will pretend that any argument justfies their loose idea of what the second amendment provides for. The truth is that Canada has more guns per capita, but some reasonable rules on who can have one and how they can transport one change the numbers on gun violence dramatically.
Posted by biffp on May 30, 2012 at 2:04 PM · Report this
biffp 93
@89, feel free to show up at the vigil and say that you fucking loser.
Posted by biffp on May 30, 2012 at 2:05 PM · Report this
Teslick 94
83: shouldn't we wait until we get confirmation before naming victims?

55: We should be encouraging government to share more information via multiple outlets, not less. Less information invariably leads to unfounded speculation, which we see just in this thread...
Posted by Teslick on May 30, 2012 at 2:06 PM · Report this
Rotten666 95
@92 how they transport one?

Explain please.

@90 This is a public forum, not a private memorial.
Posted by Rotten666 on May 30, 2012 at 2:07 PM · Report this
stinkbug 96
@94: mainstream media is listing them.
Posted by stinkbug on May 30, 2012 at 2:08 PM · Report this
97
@92: "The truth is that Canada has more guns per capita [...]"

Where did you see that? Every figure I've ever seen shows between 1/3 and 1/2 as many guns per capita in Canada when compared to the US.
Posted by doceb on May 30, 2012 at 2:10 PM · Report this
rara avis 98
Ug. Kiro saying 2 more dead (4 total) from Cafe Racer incident.
Posted by rara avis on May 30, 2012 at 2:11 PM · Report this
stinkbug 99
Total killed at CR is now at 4. (two men and two women)
Posted by stinkbug on May 30, 2012 at 2:12 PM · Report this
Gurldoggie 100
Whoa, @83. Are you sure about that? Where did you get that from?
Posted by Gurldoggie http://gurldogg.blogspot.com on May 30, 2012 at 2:13 PM · Report this
MacBastard 101
KIRO just interviewed a friend of the Cafe Racer victims a few minutes ago. He said that one of those shot was the band booker there. Just sad.
Posted by MacBastard on May 30, 2012 at 2:20 PM · Report this
102
#86

Seriously, right? Instead of the trattoria down in Brooklyn, here in Seattle mobs of red rimmed bicyclists schedule executions in coffee houses.

"This is for the bad SIFF review..bang..bang!"

"The house that you and your 5 buddies from college live is dead to me...Dead To Me!"

Posted by Supreme Ruler Of The Universe http://_ on May 30, 2012 at 2:23 PM · Report this
103
@88

You can't expect rare events to be evenly distributed. In 2011, for the same period of the year, we had a homicide rate of .02 a day. For the rest of 2011, the rate was .08 a day. That works out to .055 over the course of the year. Lets say that the true rate is somewhere around there, .06. So far this year we've had a rate of .127. However, we expect regression to the mean, and to have the future rate be about our average of .06. That means we would expect there to be around 13 more homicides for the rest of the year. for a total of 32. It may seem like a lot, but that less than a 2% change and not really enough to be statistically significant.
Posted by arbeck http://www.facebook.com/arbeck on May 30, 2012 at 2:28 PM · Report this
104
@102 Hipster humor, eh? That's some cutting edge stuff!
Posted by Esteban on May 30, 2012 at 2:29 PM · Report this
105
@102 your inability to turn off the 'jokes' just shows what a complete dip shit you are.
Posted by CbytheSea on May 30, 2012 at 2:30 PM · Report this
106
What #78 said.
Posted by jkjk on May 30, 2012 at 2:34 PM · Report this
rara avis 107
Seriously @102 - wtf is wrong with you?
Posted by rara avis on May 30, 2012 at 2:34 PM · Report this
McGee 108
@107 He's a pig.
Posted by McGee on May 30, 2012 at 2:37 PM · Report this
Sea Otter 109
@95 I take it you don't understand the difference between "public forum" and "license to act like an antisocial piece of shit."
Posted by Sea Otter on May 30, 2012 at 2:40 PM · Report this
110
@108 I think Bailo must land somewhere on the autistic spectrum, his last comment really showed an inability to read the situation.
Posted by CbytheSea on May 30, 2012 at 2:41 PM · Report this
treacle 111
I knew them... jesus fuck.
Posted by treacle on May 30, 2012 at 2:42 PM · Report this
Venus_Rearmed 112
RIP Schmoozi :(
Posted by Venus_Rearmed http://www.cobwebclothing.com on May 30, 2012 at 2:42 PM · Report this
onion 113
i'm really sorry for the victims, their family, friends and all who were present during the violence. what a tragedy.
Posted by onion on May 30, 2012 at 2:44 PM · Report this
emor 114
@102

Fuck off Bailo. You are a terrible person.
Posted by emor on May 30, 2012 at 2:44 PM · Report this
115
@87 - Fuck you and your 'no true Scotsman' fallacies.

Guns make it infinitely easier to kill someone when you're angry. No cool down period, no time for reflection. Takes less than a second to pull a trigger.

So fuck your knife analogy (unless you're attacking an unconscious person, it's really hard to stab someone who's trying to defend themselves) fuck your car analogy (when you can ride a bullet to work you can use it). Fuck your 'if someone wants to kill someone they'll do it' (see: guns make it easier to kill people). Fuck your racist hillbilly NRA. Fuck the lawmakers who put loopholes in the gun control laws to let murderers and psychopaths pick up any weapon they want. Fuck your misreading of the constitution. Fuck your lack of historical understanding. Fuck you for thinking YOU matter more than the asshole standing on the street who catches YOUR fucking bullet because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Fuck you for making these situations so depressingly common in this country.

Fuck your fear. Fuck your cowardice. Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, and literally every person like you. Your pathetic gun obsession makes this a worse country to be in.
Posted by johnjjeeves on May 30, 2012 at 2:50 PM · Report this
Rotten666 116
@109 I know all too well. That's why it perplexes me why perfectly reasonable people expect the stupidity and cruelty typically seen in this and other forums to suddenly stop, just because you personally know someone involved in the tragedy.
Posted by Rotten666 on May 30, 2012 at 2:52 PM · Report this
yos-wa 117
They say in this article that they were both members of God's Favorite Beefcake. http://www.kirotv.com/news/news/shooting…

www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLBo1HJKRMY

RIP, it was truly good to know ya.
Posted by yos-wa on May 30, 2012 at 2:53 PM · Report this
Will in Seattle 118
SPD comments translation: We Are Trying To Blackmail The City Over Our Own Behavior.
Posted by Will in Seattle http://www.facebook.com/WillSeattle on May 30, 2012 at 2:53 PM · Report this
119
The meme discussed (and not endorsed) in the 2:39 pm update is magical thinking. "If only the police tased more pregnant ladies, there would be fewer random shootings!" On second thought, perhaps "magical thinking" is too charitable. It's the thinking of the totalitarian: the only way to maintain order is through random acts of official violence and through fear. Oderint dum metuant.

Posted by Pliggett Darcy on May 30, 2012 at 2:53 PM · Report this
biffp 120
@95, happy to meet up and debate it in person.
Posted by biffp on May 30, 2012 at 2:54 PM · Report this
Will in Seattle 121
@115 is correct. There is no Undo button in real life.
Posted by Will in Seattle http://www.facebook.com/WillSeattle on May 30, 2012 at 2:54 PM · Report this
122
I should also add that it's morally abhorrent to use a tragedy whose causes we don't know to make a dubious political point. Obviously.
Posted by Pliggett Darcy on May 30, 2012 at 2:55 PM · Report this
Michael of the Green 123
If cops killed more wood-carving artists, there would be less gun violence. Yes, this is a compelling point.
Posted by Michael of the Green on May 30, 2012 at 2:58 PM · Report this
126
@123 We all know wood carving is a gateway crime.
Posted by tkc on May 30, 2012 at 3:22 PM · Report this
127
One thing to note, if we're going to fire up a gun debate (which I continue to discourage until heads have cooled) is that the current gun laws have always been present. So why then is the murder rate spiking now? Why didn't it spike years ago? Why was it lower in previous years?

The problem is not just a matter of gun laws, because the gun laws have been the same, including during safer times.
Posted by Gomez http://misterstevengomez.com on May 30, 2012 at 3:24 PM · Report this
Sea Otter 128
@116, I personally didn't know the victims, although I know people who knew them, so I guess this incident seems a tad more immediate to me than most such incidents. I kind of see your point.

To my mind, using news of any violent crime as an occasion for spewing off-topic (ignorant, racist) vitriol is an indication that you're a garden-variety internet asshole. But doing it when the violent crime in question happened in the local community and many people in the forum knew the victims...That really takes a special kind of asshole. In fact, it suggests a shocking lack of any normal level of human empathy.

Being that a lurk around here enough to be familiar with the antics of the anonymous troll, I'm not all that surprised.... I guess I was just making the point that that sort of trolling is particularly unacceptable, given the circumstances.
Posted by Sea Otter on May 30, 2012 at 3:29 PM · Report this
deadrose 129
When is the white community going to step up and take responsibility for these crimes perpetrated by its members? *crickets*

But truly, this is awful.
Posted by deadrose on May 30, 2012 at 3:36 PM · Report this
130
115. Step away from the computer, because you're definitely not in the right frame of mind to discuss guns or any other issue. In fact, given emotions riding high this is definitely the wrong time to be discussing the gun issue at all, because reason disappears when you're hurt and angry.
Posted by Gomez http://misterstevengomez.com on May 30, 2012 at 3:38 PM · Report this
131
@122 According to who's moral code?

None that conservatives honor. They use the shock doctrine to grab power, avoid accountability, and dodge reform.

Our police force is arguably a conservative organization. I don't discount the tragedy and pain for the families involved today one bit. I merely point out that there can be an agenda in the messaging around these things.

What I will admit to discounting is the need of some people in these comments to appropriate the victimhood of other people...and get suckered in the process. Were you not alive for the past 10 years? You can feel for other people and still ask questions. An inability to do so is not the moral high ground, it's an intellectual deficiency.

None of these people have offered a convincing argument how SPDs Twitter post was particularly effective at keeping anyone safe, though they bleat on about me being an asshole. The closest we've gotten is @85, but @85 attributes a straw man argument to me.

To @85, I've not said that police forces are useless. Quite the contrary, I want it to be useful while obeying the law in the performance of its duties. Further, yes, actually police can be expected to go around with a bullhorn telling people to stay indoors. It's pretty routine stuff when someone is loose in a specific area, even if their exact location is not known. And saying that does not mean that I'm not sorry that you are being inconvenienced...even threatened...today, or that I am not happy you are safe.

@79 has suggested that friends called friends in the area. That's great, but not a conclusive argument that the call actually did anything more than what the police in the area already could do. Guess what. The police in the area had already locked down Roosevelt. The parents with children there weren't going to get anywhere near if they tried. Because the police there were actually doing their job. Am I full of shit? Or are you full of stupid? Being belligerent while being wrong doesn't make you right. Take your outrage and shove it.

It's pretty obviously the local media is loving the 'shooting rampage' headline. (It helps that white people are getting shot in these incidents, rather than blacks. That's not hyperbole. Again, see Westneat's column on what other shooting stories have happened lately and not made headlines.) Ditto for the SPD who will find it useful. Yes, we are having a blip of shootings (which would probably be less likely to be a problem in the first place if we had stricter gun control laws), but @103 makes a good point about statistics. The blip is horrible and happening, but this statistical anomaly doesn't mean we are in the midst of a persistent trend. Could be. But could just as easily not be. None of us know. Though the people prone to hysteria will pretend like they do.

Oh, and one way it could become an established trend is when sickos see headlines and want the same attention. So good job hysterics. By eating up the news and appropriating other people's pain, you are probably making it more likely to happen again. Bravo. But hey, if it makes you feel better to shout me down, keep going.

More...
Posted by Mike Silva on May 30, 2012 at 3:39 PM · Report this
Karlheinz Arschbomber 132
@115: Could not have expresse it better.

@127: The shitty economy persisting for so many years has created an army of ever-more desperate and anxious people. The fuckwit fringe of these will lash out, and if guns are ubiquitous like water, it will be with deadly effect.

So sad for the victims, their families & friends.
Posted by Karlheinz Arschbomber http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arschbombe on May 30, 2012 at 3:40 PM · Report this
TortoiseTurtle 134
@133, did the cops stop this? No? Then shut up.
Posted by TortoiseTurtle http://slog.thestranger.com on May 30, 2012 at 3:48 PM · Report this
135
@127-- I think it's important to note that the murder rate is not spiking. We are obviously having a spate of gun-related incidents right now, but there is no evidence that this is anything more than a number of random events with coincidental timing. Simply because there are 20 homicides so far this year does not mean that we will necessarily have 40+ at the year's end.

It's not unlike a baseball player who hits around .300 every year. At some point in the season that hitter will have a series where he'll go 10 for 15 or something, or he'll go on a 25-game hitting streak or whatever. At the end of the year, though, his batting average is still around .300.

Anyway, the point is not to be nitpicky on the numbers but to say that there really isn't a discussion to be had about "the murder rate spiking" because there isn't yet an evidence of an increase in the rate over time, just a collection of events very close together.
Posted by lopes on May 30, 2012 at 3:48 PM · Report this
138
132. A question worth exploring: If a person can't afford food, rent and other necessities, how can they afford guns and ammo? BTW ammunition is not cheap.
Posted by Gomez http://misterstevengomez.com on May 30, 2012 at 3:50 PM · Report this
139
According to SPD data, today's four killings (so far) bring Seattle's year-to-date handgun homicide total to 20.
By this time last year, there had only been three.
That is an increase of over 650%.


You'll want to check your math on this one. Or better yet use an online calculator.

(And yes, I realize this is trivial under the circumstances but figured you'd want to get your facts in order.)
Posted by bigyaz on May 30, 2012 at 3:53 PM · Report this
140
I hope that person in the chair in the first pic isn't the person on the ground in the 2nd photo.
Posted by apres_moi on May 30, 2012 at 3:54 PM · Report this
Teslick 142
What's the point of Goldy's 3:43 update? We have no information about this murderer, so trying to pin this horror on Chopp at this point is tasteless political posturing.
Posted by Teslick on May 30, 2012 at 3:58 PM · Report this
143
Officer-involved shooting at 37th & Raymond. GSW to the head. I heard "Suspect down."
Posted by UberAlles on May 30, 2012 at 3:59 PM · Report this
144
Yeah I heard on the scanner that the thing in SW Seattle was police related or did I mishear that? Possibly it was the Town Hall shooter?
Posted by Devin on May 30, 2012 at 4:01 PM · Report this
145
142. Well, it's Ralph Fascitelli's posturing, so you might want to get mad at him if you're not cool with it. Goldy's just relaying words from a guy who likely went out of his way to come to the scene and vent to Goldy.
Posted by Gomez http://misterstevengomez.com on May 30, 2012 at 4:03 PM · Report this
146
seattle police back-tracking, saying it might be self-inflicted...
Posted by UberAlles on May 30, 2012 at 4:03 PM · Report this
147
They said it was a self-inflicted fatal wound of the Cafe Racer suspect ...
Posted by Mrs. Silence Dogood on May 30, 2012 at 4:04 PM · Report this
148
Jesus Fucking Christ
Posted by SeattleKim on May 30, 2012 at 4:04 PM · Report this
149
I also just literally heard this:

Officer 1: "Are you at the precinct?" Officer 2: "No, we're at happy hour."

Seriously?!
Posted by Devin on May 30, 2012 at 4:06 PM · Report this
150
Self inflicted and probably the Cafe Racer murderer.
Posted by Senor Guy on May 30, 2012 at 4:06 PM · Report this
151
Fucking committed suicide, the fucking coward.
Posted by Bloated Jesus is Bloated on May 30, 2012 at 4:11 PM · Report this
Teslick 152
145: A lot of people are venting, but I doubt Goldy is going to report somebody's pro-gun venting. There's no point to reporting this quote besides trying to inject Goldy's personal anti-gun views. Let's find out the hows and whys before we engage in the typical American "someone must be blamed" behavior.
Posted by Teslick on May 30, 2012 at 4:15 PM · Report this
onion 153
holy shit. do the suicide part first, asshole. suicide FIRST. yeah, what a fucking coward.
Posted by onion on May 30, 2012 at 4:17 PM · Report this
treacle 154
... agony.
Posted by treacle on May 30, 2012 at 4:19 PM · Report this
155
I hope the fucker survives as a vegetable.
Posted by Devin on May 30, 2012 at 4:19 PM · Report this
156
Why is everyone fleeing to West Seattle. I live hear and can attest it's hard to get in and out of. Not the best place for a getaway.
Posted by arbeck http://www.facebook.com/arbeck on May 30, 2012 at 4:21 PM · Report this
TortoiseTurtle 157
@141, cops didn't stop it or catch the guy. They tweeted about it, got dressed up in gear, and ran all over town and will likely hold a press conference when it's over. Shall we give them a standing ovation? A gold star and a cookie?
Posted by TortoiseTurtle http://slog.thestranger.com on May 30, 2012 at 4:27 PM · Report this
Scalpel 158
Maybe this makes me a bad person, but I can't feel a bit of sympathy for the shooter. My only sadness at his death is that he can't bleed to death multiple times, once for each life he ruined today. Fuck him and his self-centered, murderous temper-tantrum.
Posted by Scalpel on May 30, 2012 at 4:30 PM · Report this
Ziggity 159
@131: Oh you wish you could even come close to making me 'outraged.' Nothing in my post indicates any type of anger, except maybe saying you're full of shit. But that was just to push your buttons, which . . . hey, success!
Posted by Ziggity on May 30, 2012 at 4:31 PM · Report this
160
@157, we should be reassured that they are all over this. Listen to the scanner. There's rarely been silence since this happened. The entire police department isn't sitting on twitter.

Also, yes they will hold a press conference (at 5pm) to let everyone know what happened. They're doing their jobs and informing the public. They don't deserve anything special, but they at lease deserve to not have cynical lazy people pretend to know how to do police work.

I'm annoyed at SPD right now too, but they're actually doing their jobs. They found the shooter in a geographically large city.

Let's lose the cynicism on this right now. People died. Remember that. This is horrible.
Posted by Devin on May 30, 2012 at 4:34 PM · Report this
162
160. SPD did their jobs once he got away and they had to hunt him down. But it appears they were in a position to apprehend him immediately after the shooting (possibly even before) and they didn't finish.
Posted by Gomez http://misterstevengomez.com on May 30, 2012 at 4:41 PM · Report this
pfffter 163
@161 Jesus, get some psychotherapy already.
Posted by pfffter on May 30, 2012 at 4:42 PM · Report this
tainte 165
and people wonder why i live on the eastside.

Posted by tainte on May 30, 2012 at 4:46 PM · Report this
166
The SPD/police are unquestionable heroes. Whether they're dealing with filthy, scumfuck "woodcarvers" or shooting suspects they deserve our respect. It's too bad they have to serve an increasingly hostile, ungrateful city.
Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces on May 30, 2012 at 4:48 PM · Report this
pfffter 167
@166 Yeah, tazing a pregnant woman. They get mad props, yo! I'm sure she was all up in his grill not signing that ticket and not getting out of the car!
Posted by pfffter on May 30, 2012 at 4:51 PM · Report this
169
@167 I forgot about them tazing that mouthy, speeding ghetto bitch. No police lotto payout for her dumb ass.
Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces on May 30, 2012 at 4:54 PM · Report this
Roma 170
Very sad...what a tragedy.

That said, Clark continued, "We are frustrated by the easy access to firearms and people resorting to the use of firearms."

As a society, we want access to firearms and as long as that's what we want, numerous people, unfortunately, are going to pay the price for that access every year.

Posted by Roma on May 30, 2012 at 4:57 PM · Report this
171
@165 - nothing like that would ever happen on the Eastside, right?

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/sound/art…
Posted by doceb on May 30, 2012 at 5:00 PM · Report this
173
STFU, for crying out loud. People are dead. The shooter included, apparently. This is no time for the bile to come out. A litte respect please.
Posted by gawd on May 30, 2012 at 5:02 PM · Report this
174
Wow, just in case we ever forget what kind of racist subhumans live under the rocks of Seattle...the comments on Slog will always remind us. Condolences to those hurt today. SPD must agree to DOJ guidelines to become functional. A functional department does not cry every time it makes an error, such as letting the shooter escape to kill again. That's the whine of the police union I hear.
Posted by harriettubman on May 30, 2012 at 5:06 PM · Report this
175

This one is so bad even USA Today is reporting it.

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/…

Posted by Supreme Ruler Of The Universe http://_ on May 30, 2012 at 5:07 PM · Report this
rob! 176
I'm so sorry for the family, friends, and co-workers of those killed, and anyone whose life feels turned upside down by today's tragedies.

I'm deeply troubled by the description of the latest events (apparent suicide as police closed in). Suspect and SWAT officers in visual contact, suspect presumably holding a gun and has the time and space to kneel in the middle of the street and shoot himself in the head?

I can understand law enforcement considering the threat to passersby, but what about the possibility that they had a high level of confidence that the man with the gun was the prime suspect in the attacks earlier today, and gave him the leeway to take himself out? I don't see that as justice done, though it saves interrogation and court time and incarceration expense, and maybe comforts some that he's no longer any kind of threat.

If I had my druthers, I'd see him winged and captured, a long painful recuperation, the motive(s) dragged out of his festering soul, a jury trial and some kind of closure for survivors, and a presumably very long prison sentence.

My point is, do the police have any decision points to let a strong suspect dispatch himself vs. an admittedly risky attempt to capture him? I don't think that's an unfair question, though I realize of course that they have people who love them and want them home safe.

Again, condolences to all affected.
Posted by rob! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZBdUceCL5U on May 30, 2012 at 5:08 PM · Report this
177
Peace and love to everybody here hug your kid/wife-husband-partner/sibling/parent/friend/pet and be thankful for one more sunset. Even you @115.
Posted by neverreadkoontzlol! on May 30, 2012 at 5:17 PM · Report this
Roma 178
If I had my druthers, I'd see him winged and captured, a long painful recuperation, the motive(s) dragged out of his festering soul, a jury trial and some kind of closure for survivors, and a presumably very long prison sentence.

Rob, my idea: put convicted scumbag murderers in cells with thick glass walls. On those walls, looking in at them, would be photos of the people they murdered.
Posted by Roma on May 30, 2012 at 5:18 PM · Report this
179

#176

O, how all the racists here are humanizing these events...because these killers have names, and dress like the typical Seattlite who posts here.

Yet if this had involved the 23rd Street Jokers or other Othello sited gangs, you'd be calling for their heads, or dehumanizing them.

Face it -- just having the woolen cap or a Biblical name given to you by hippie parents or white skin doesn't make you any less of an animal, or killer than the other people you label and rant on each and every day here.
Posted by Supreme Ruler Of The Universe http://_ on May 30, 2012 at 5:19 PM · Report this
venomlash 180
@172: The police are not there to retaliate, but to apprehend. Guidelines only allow the use of sublethal weapons such as Tasers when a suspect is ACTIVELY resisting, rather than passively resisting. Unless she pushed or struck a cop who was trying to get her to move, or otherwise acted aggressively towards them, there was no reason for the Taser to be used, pregnant or not.
I believe that we should support and respect our police officers, but we still have to hold people accountable for clearly excessive use of force.
Posted by venomlash on May 30, 2012 at 5:21 PM · Report this
scary tyler moore 181
@78, i was thinking the exact same thing. it will probably come out later that the shooter had a serious mental illness. bet on it.
Posted by scary tyler moore http://pushymcshove.blogspot.com/ on May 30, 2012 at 5:21 PM · Report this
rob! 182
@Roma, I'd donate to an inkjet-cartridge fund for extra-large prints.
Posted by rob! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZBdUceCL5U on May 30, 2012 at 5:28 PM · Report this
Timrrr 183
My money's on Route 66, ironicly enough:
http://tripplanner.kingcounty.gov/cgi-bi…
Posted by Timrrr on May 30, 2012 at 5:28 PM · Report this
GlamB0t 184
As of 5:15, Harborview says the #downtownshooting #rooseveltshooting suspect is still alive. bit.ly/L6X1wx

re: @seattlepi
Posted by GlamB0t on May 30, 2012 at 5:30 PM · Report this
McGee 185
@179. Nothing you say is happening in your post is actually happening. Your post is nonsensical. These killers? Plural? Humanizing? Nobody knows the killer's name. Do you have any idea what's going on? You're full of shit.
Posted by McGee on May 30, 2012 at 5:32 PM · Report this
biffp 186
@170, American society is not demanding a gun shop a mile away from Cafe Racer on Aurora or stand your ground laws in Florida. It's the gun lobby, Fox News and some fuckwad CHUDs posting on chat room boards.
Posted by biffp on May 30, 2012 at 5:33 PM · Report this
187
@186 - "It's the gun lobby, Fox News and some fuckwad CHUDs posting on chat room boards."

Because anyone who disagrees with your opinions are "fuckwad CHUDs?"
Posted by doceb on May 30, 2012 at 5:37 PM · Report this
188
@179. You know, you can pretty much set your watch to that line of blather around here. Take a break and go off and have an original thought.
Posted by vanderleun on May 30, 2012 at 5:37 PM · Report this
kerfuffle 189
He shot himself in front my of old house. I haven't lived there for 9 years, but it's completely freaking me out.

To those of you who know the victims, my deepest condolensces. This is a true tragedy.
Posted by kerfuffle on May 30, 2012 at 5:44 PM · Report this
biffp 190
@187, anyone suggesting guns didn't make this easy and fatal is in that category. It doesn't matter what his mental health is, what color he is or that a knife can be dangerous. There should be background checks, no guns sold at shows in Eastern Washington and no walking around with a gun without a permit. The fact that it's not going to prevent all crime in Seattle is not a counterargument. If it stops one wacko from killing four people, it is a sufficient compromise with the right to form an armed militia.
Posted by biffp on May 30, 2012 at 5:48 PM · Report this
191
@190 - "There should be background checks, no guns sold at shows in Eastern Washington and no walking around with a gun without a permit."

There are 2 out of 3 of those things in place already. And yes, the "gun show loophole" sucks.
Posted by doceb on May 30, 2012 at 5:53 PM · Report this
Pmasp 192
Jazz funeral. Lots of sad clowns.
Posted by Pmasp on May 30, 2012 at 6:00 PM · Report this
raku 193
Hey I have an idea, why don't we make those guns that keep killing people illegal?

I'm surprised I'm the first to think of this, there is literally no downside.
Posted by raku on May 30, 2012 at 6:01 PM · Report this
biffp 194
Background checks are not done consistently, and are based on old data. I'm not aware a requirement to obtain a premit from police department before transporting a gun.
Posted by biffp on May 30, 2012 at 6:04 PM · Report this
195
Do you have any data showing how inconsistently background checks are done? Every dealer I've ever encountered has been absolutely fastidious about verifying and keeping records of ATF form 4473 (the one you have to fill out whenever a firearm purchase is made) and making background checks as required by law. Private sales are not subject to this - that's the "gun show loophole" I previously mentioned, and yes, it sucks.

Define "transporting." If you're walking around with a gun, you need to have a CPL. You might be able to get away with having it locked, in a case, to and from your vehicle without a permit. But not just "walking around," no.
Posted by doceb on May 30, 2012 at 6:16 PM · Report this
Posted by scary tyler moore http://pushymcshove.blogspot.com/ on May 30, 2012 at 6:18 PM · Report this
197
Does anyone know any of the names of the victims?
Posted by youknowwhatsup on May 30, 2012 at 6:26 PM · Report this
biffp 198
@195, a Federal registry and a permit each move the gun is moved - not a permit for a period of time. The burden and responsibility on the gun owner, rather than society.
Posted by biffp on May 30, 2012 at 6:30 PM · Report this
199
@197 - the only name released so far as I can tell is Len Meuse who I believe is a cook there, and is expected to survive. The two dead were regulars and members of a band that played at the racer often. The other man is a regular who lived near by. I'm still trying to find out who the woman killed was. I don't feel comfortable revealing the names here.
Posted by cb on May 30, 2012 at 6:35 PM · Report this
200
I knew of the 2 men who were band members, they were friends of a friend. I am concerned with the name of the woman because she may be a friend of a friend. If you do hear anything can you please just put the first letter of her first name? I understand not wanting names posted, but my friend is beside herself & desperate for information.
Posted by youknowwhatsup on May 30, 2012 at 6:42 PM · Report this
201
i haven't heard anything about the identity of the woman, but will post if i hear anything.
Posted by cb on May 30, 2012 at 6:44 PM · Report this
202
@198 - First you wanted "background checks" and "permits to carry around guns." When I pointed out that those are already required, now you want "a Federal registry and a permit each move the gun is moved (sic) - not a permit for a period of time."

So once your demands are met, you want to move the goalposts? It's quickly becoming clear that you're unwilling to be satisfied.
Posted by doceb on May 30, 2012 at 6:44 PM · Report this
203
Thank you, cb. I'm sending all of my love to y'all in Seattle. I'm sorry that this has happened to y'all.
Posted by youknowwhatsup on May 30, 2012 at 6:46 PM · Report this
biffp 204
@202, I'm not satisfied with the status quo, and I'd love to hear from you how well it's working. A Federal registry, and permit to move a gun would be an improvement. Feel free to debate those on their merits, rather than dodging the issue.
Posted by biffp on May 30, 2012 at 6:47 PM · Report this
ryanayr 205
http://dw.courts.wa.gov/index.cfm?fa=hom…

Stranger reporters, wanna follow up on those?
Posted by ryanayr on May 30, 2012 at 6:47 PM · Report this
ryanayr 206
Bad link, try again:

Name Court Case Number Judgment Record Court Information
1 Stawicki, Ian
Plaintiff Kittitas Superior Ct 97-2-00208-0 Available 06-03-1997
2 Stawicki, Ian L
Plaintiff Lower Kittitas Dist C97-00201 04-25-1997
3 Stawicki, Ian Lee
Defendant Seattle Municipal Ct 301103 01-21-1997
4 Stawicki, Ian Lee
Defendant Seattle Municipal Ct 893100796 11-06-1989
5 Stawicki, Ian Lee
Defendant Seattle Municipal Ct 519680 03-10-2008
6 Stawicki, Ian Lee
Defendant King County District 208008039 02-28-2008
7 Stawicki, Ian Lee
Defendant Lower Kittitas Dist 8742 03-16-2010
Posted by ryanayr on May 30, 2012 at 6:51 PM · Report this
207
On behalf of all middle aged, white males in Seattle, I'd like to apologize for the recent onslaught of crime. As the Nicole Brodeurs and others of her ilk have taught me, it's said demographic that's the root of all evil.
Posted by Jamaal on May 30, 2012 at 6:53 PM · Report this
208
On behalf of all middle aged, white males in Seattle, I'd like to apologize for the recent onslaught of crime. As the Nicole Brodeurs and others of her ilk have taught me, it's said demographic that's the root of all evil.
Posted by Jamaal on May 30, 2012 at 6:57 PM · Report this
209
@204 - Better define "permit to move a gun," I guess. From the dealer to your house, locked in a box? From your house to the range, locked in a box? Walking around on the street with it? Separate license for each? Separate license per firearm? Just one license to do any of these per person?

As far as federal registries, records of all ATF Form 4473s (the same one I talked about before - ) are kept on file for 20 years. This information includes all information about the purchaser, the dealer, and the firearm (including serial number). What other information would you have collected?
Posted by doceb on May 30, 2012 at 6:58 PM · Report this
Sea Otter 210
@115 Put it very eloquently, IMO. Sometimes things said in anger contain a lot of truth.
Posted by Sea Otter on May 30, 2012 at 7:00 PM · Report this
211
@210: Fair enough, but "fuck you" doesn't provide any solutions.
Posted by doceb on May 30, 2012 at 7:02 PM · Report this
biffp 212
Street, car, anywhere. Why not coordinate all the information that is out there, keep it up to date and have a Federal agency doing checks for all sales? You can pretend that's what's happening now, but it isn't. This story is from last month:
Virginia Gov. Bob McDonnell (R) has sent every governor in the nation a letter asking for support in improving background checks for gun purchases
Posted by biffp on May 30, 2012 at 7:02 PM · Report this
213
@youknow - this probably won't help, but the man who's status is unknown has a first initial D, and his wife/girlfriend who has the first initial G was NOT the woman who died at harborview.
Posted by cb on May 30, 2012 at 7:04 PM · Report this
214
"Street, car, anywhere"
So basically require a CPL to own a firearm? I honestly don't have too much of an issue with that (already have a license), but there are somewhat reasonable people who would. It would be a very hard piece of legislation to get through.

"Why not coordinate all the information that is out there, keep it up to date and have a Federal agency doing checks for all sales?"

I've never claimed to take issue with that. It's what the BATF is supposed to be doing in the first place. It's their job, after all. After looking up the article you mentioned, it's a completely reasonable approach to leveraging systems and legislation that are already in place.
Posted by doceb on May 30, 2012 at 7:09 PM · Report this
215
Thank you for the update, cb. I really appreciate it. If you get any more info please post again. I am refreshing the updates & watching the twitter feed for more info but being a couple thousand miles away puts me at a disadvantage to y'all who are actually there since I can only get info from police/news & not locals.
Posted by youknowwhatsup on May 30, 2012 at 7:10 PM · Report this
BLUE 216
"In an effort to keep the discourse respectful and on topic, commenting on this item is now available only to registered commenters."
Posted by BLUE on May 30, 2012 at 7:10 PM · Report this
biffp 217
@214, I agree with you that it would be hard to get that legislation through. If the NRA stated the numbers are unacceptable, did not advocate for more guns as the solution, agreed not to challenge on second amendment grounds a set of restrictions on carrying and storing guns that put the burden and responsibility on gun owners, I think that would be progess.

I'd say 33 states not submitting any mental health records to the system is an unacceptable gap that requires immediate tying of federal funds to compliance.

If it isn't possible to have responsible gun ownership in Seattle in the current circumstances (budget and laws), then the guns are the first thing to go, not the last.
Posted by biffp on May 30, 2012 at 7:56 PM · Report this
Eastpike 218
Twitter has it that he's dead now, at harborview. via Q13
Posted by Eastpike on May 30, 2012 at 8:10 PM · Report this
219
@213; thanks!! If you get any word on how D is doing, please post. I'm in fucking Baltimore right now and trying to follow as best I can via text and Fbook and here. Some friends were at the hospital earlier, but no word from them yet.
Posted by gnossos on May 30, 2012 at 8:25 PM · Report this
220
@219 - just got word that don has passed. oddly enough, i am getting updates from friends in seattle. i also live in baltimore.
Posted by cb on May 30, 2012 at 8:28 PM · Report this
COMTE 221
Damn, I have so wanted to push into this discussion so many times today, but frankly, I've been too occupied processing the fact that many of my friends and colleagues have lost people very close to them. Which is probably a good thing, because I can certainly understand the impulse of people like @ 115 to lash out in a moment of grief.

But, then the overly-analytic part of my brain kicks in...

So, here's the reality:

There are roughly 300,000,000 firearms floating around the U.S. as of this very moment, of which approximately 1/3 are handguns. That's 100,000,000 concealable weapons people; one for roughly every three people living in this country right now. The notion that we can magically make even an appreciable number of those disappear overnight is simply delusional thinking. We're a gun-crazy country, THE MOST GUN-CRAZY COUNTRY ON THE PLANET. We simply cannot make the crazy go away, because, even if we could prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that owning small weapons was BAD for society, and even if 100% of us AGREED with that notion, we'd never be able to confiscate all of them. Not. Going. To. Happen. EVER.

That being said, those of you who think the Second Amendment should have been the first paragraph in the Constitution, instead of second on the list of afterthoughts, need to understand that unrestricted access to small armaments is a serious problem, a FATAL FUCKING PROBLEM in this land, and that some sort of common-sense safe-guards need to be established to prevent (as much as is humanly possible) allowing these armaments to get into the hands of people who would only use them for ill-intent.

In short, we need to find some way to come to a compromise on this issue, because the alternative is to say that the horrific events of a day like today are an ACCEPTABLE price for maintaining the status quo. And if days like today tell us anything it's that what we're doing now ISN'T FUCKING WORKING.

Honestly, I don't know what the answer is: better background checks, stricter compliance with existing laws, more restrictive transfer processes, harsher penalties for those who use firearms in the commission of crimes, a national firearms registry - all of these make sense to me, even though I'm sure there are many responsible gun owners who will find objections to any one of them for all sorts of reasons. But, at some point ALL of us MUST acknowledge the fact that, if we're going to continue to allow for personal gun ownership in this country, we have to find a way, as imperfect as it may be, to minimize the possibility of terrible days like today ever occurring again.

It CAN'T be "my way or nothing"; we HAVE to work together on this, it's the only way we're going to resolve the dilemma.

I just don't want to see people I care about have to go through another day like today - is that such a BAD thing to wish for? I hope not.
More...
Posted by COMTE on May 30, 2012 at 8:41 PM · Report this
222
@115 Yes, thank you.

My thoughts with all those personally affected...
Posted by deign_to_say on May 30, 2012 at 8:57 PM · Report this
merry 223
My God, what a day.

Deepest condolences to all those who lost friends and loved ones today, and that includes the mentally ill Ian Stawicki whose "very bad day" caused all this grief... All these families torn apart, all this trauma, all this blood... Why was he allowed to own a gun? I'll be interested to find out the answer to that question in the coming days and weeks..

On the first day of my vacation, I was not best pleased to see two close friends on the teevee, sitting outside Cafe Racer and giving testimony to the cops.. Not best pleased, at all.. I am so thankful for my friends Larry and John, and Thank You God for their continued existence on this planet...

God help us all... God help us puny little humans down here, God help us......
Posted by merry on May 30, 2012 at 9:19 PM · Report this
224
@220: thanks, just got off the phone w/ a friend in Seattle, who told that they had decided to pull the plug on D...so, so, fucking sad...
Posted by gnossos on May 30, 2012 at 9:29 PM · Report this
225
and Comte @221: well said.
Posted by gnossos on May 30, 2012 at 9:32 PM · Report this
227
Okay, I didn't read all the comments. Only about 100 of them, but I am surprised no one has invited Tim Eyman to stand up and take a bow. He should feel so incredibly proud of how much he has saved us in licensing fees and taxes . . . and thusly cut funding for mental health! What's a life worth anyway?
Posted by hillsidefrog2 on May 30, 2012 at 10:07 PM · Report this
KlingKlang13 228
Don't forget folks, making it illegal to carry a gun would be useless. The people that do bad things with them would still get them and use them.
Posted by KlingKlang13 on May 30, 2012 at 10:58 PM · Report this
zachd 229
This is utter balls. Drew in particular was awesome, and Joe and Gloria I know nothing but good about.

Can we get a statue erected in their honor?
Posted by zachd http://zachd.com on May 30, 2012 at 11:29 PM · Report this
zachd 230
This is utter balls. Drew in particular was awesome, and Joe and Gloria I know nothing but good about.

Can we get a statue erected in their honor?
Posted by zachd http://zachd.com on May 31, 2012 at 12:12 AM · Report this
231
If you dont like the 2a fucking move to a different county way more people are killed from 2nd hand smoke. Yes this is a tragic loss and I pray for peace to the victims but Im keeping my guns if you dont like it kick rocks bitch try your luck in Mexico were only the criminals have guns.
Posted by VH on May 31, 2012 at 1:15 AM · Report this
Theodore Gorath 232
Haha, VH @231 had to register today so that his poorly edited ramblings would no longer be hidden.

I know you think it is so important that people read your eloquent and unique viewpoint on this issue, but either finish middle school or get a style guide.

Posted by Theodore Gorath on May 31, 2012 at 11:27 AM · Report this
233
Hey if the only response you got is to talk about my horrible texting grammar maybe your lacking any usable substance.
So just follow the other sheep towards your nanny state when you need the cops in seconds there only minutes away.
Its D.I.Y. for me I refuse to be a victim I've been around firearms for 25+ years 0 injuries Yet I've buried some great people = to anyone who has fallen due to fucking drug addicts and drunk drivers and cancer from you fucking smokers.
Posted by VH on May 31, 2012 at 11:55 AM · Report this
Theodore Gorath 234
@223:

Hey, if the only response you have is to talk about my horrible texting grammar, maybe you're lacking any usable substance.

So just follow the other sheep towards your nanny state, when you need the cops in seconds, and they are only minutes away.

It's D.I.Y. for me, and I refuse to be a victim. I've been around firearms for 25+ years, and have had zero injuries. Yet, I've buried some great people who are equal to anyone who has fallen due to fucking drug addicts, drunk drivers, and cancer from you fucking smokers.

-There buddy, I fixed your grammar and spelling, and changed the sentence structure so it flows better, and eliminated some of those areas where it is hard to know what you are trying to say. Hugs and kisses!
Posted by Theodore Gorath on May 31, 2012 at 12:47 PM · Report this
235
:) Thanks hugs and kisses back . Stay safe its a jungle out there.
Posted by VH on May 31, 2012 at 1:25 PM · Report this

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