Slog
News & ArtsWednesday, May 30, 2012
Religion / LGBTQITSLFA O They Will Know We Are Christians...
Posted by Dan Savage on Wed, May 30, 2012 at 11:53 AM
...by, again, our homicidal fantasies:
"If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. They should be put to death. 'Oh, so you’re saying we should go out and start killing them.' No. I’m saying the government should. They won’t, but they should. You say, ‘Oh, I can’t believe you, you’re horrible. You’re a backwards neanderthal of a person.’ Is that what you’re calling scripture? Is God a neanderthal, backwards in his morality? Is it His word or not? If it’s His word, he commanded it. It’s His idea, not mine. And I’m not ashamed of it. He said put them to death. Shall the church drag them in? No, I’m not saying that. The church has not been given the power of the sort; the government has. But the government ought to [kill them]. You got a better idea? A better idea than God?"
- Pastor Curtis Knapp
Pastor Knapp justifies his hate with a famous passage from the Old Testament—Leviticus 20:13—which reminded me of a tweet I received during Bullshitgate:
Sorry, John Mac, but the Old Testament is germane. Anti-gay Christian hypocrites—and not all Christians are anti-gay; not all Christians are hypocrites—are constantly citing passages in the Old Testament to justify their persecution of LGBT people. We are far likelier to hear about Leviticus 20:13 and Sodom & Gomorrah in an anti-gay sermon than we are to hear about Corinthians or Timothy. And when conservative Christians toss Leviticus 20:13 in our faces—or get it tattooed on themselves (in violation of Leviticus 19:28)—we have a right to confront them about everything in the Old Testament that they choose to ignore, from the "abomination" of eating of shellfish to God giving dads the okay to sell their daughters into slavery. ("Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve" is a popular an Old Testament reference too.)
But it's only when gay people bring up a passage like Deuteronomy 22:20-21 that you hear anyone say, "Oh, that stuff about stoning daughters to death on their wedding nights if they're not virgins is in the Old Testament, you goof! That's not in the New Testament!" If it's out-of-bounds—totally not kosher—for gay people to bring up what the Old Testament says about clams and farming and personal grooming and tattoos and menstruation and virginity and adultery, then it shouldn't be kosher for conservative Christians to bring up Leviticus and Sodom & Gomorrah. Which they do. Constantly. And it's not like they have to: there are, courtesy of Paul, plenty of anti-gay verses in the New Testament. But those verses aren't anywhere near as hateful or murderous as what you'll find in Leviticus, of course, which is why they're nowhere near as popular with anti-gay bigots who call themselves Christians.
For those so inclined:
Pastor Curtis Knapp
New Hope Baptist Church
882 US Highway 36 Seneca, KS 66538
(785) 336-6251
New Hope Baptist on Facebook
Keep it civil.
1
"You say, ‘Oh, I can’t believe you, you’re horrible. You’re a backwards neanderthal of a person.’ Is that what you’re calling scripture? Is God a neanderthal, backwards in his morality?"
Well, yes.
Well, yes.
2
Oh I wish there was an email address. Can't get on facebook at the office.
Not every day you see a pastor calling for the government to round up and murder 3,000,000 (conservative estimate) American citizens.
Hell, maybe you do hear it everyday...I have not gone to church since long ago, when my parents lost the will/ability to force me.
Not every day you see a pastor calling for the government to round up and murder 3,000,000 (conservative estimate) American citizens.
Hell, maybe you do hear it everyday...I have not gone to church since long ago, when my parents lost the will/ability to force me.
4
wow that Knapp is a real chucklehead.
next thing you know he'll be wishing all Republicans were Fuckin' Dead or sumthin stupid like that......
next thing you know he'll be wishing all Republicans were Fuckin' Dead or sumthin stupid like that......
5
Disgusting. Indefensible. Of course.
However, conservative biggots don't have a lock on violent fantasies. Slog's very own Goldy is pretty good at them too:
http://www.thestranger.com/slog/archives…
http://www.thestranger.com/slog/archives…
However, conservative biggots don't have a lock on violent fantasies. Slog's very own Goldy is pretty good at them too:
http://www.thestranger.com/slog/archives…
http://www.thestranger.com/slog/archives…
6
I'm speechless.
No, wait, I'm not.
Yes, Mr Pastor: IN YOUR HANDS, YOUR CHURCH IS TRANSFORMED INTO A COLLECTION OF HORRIBLE BACKWARDS NEANDERTHALS. (Although, that's insulting neanderthals, really.)
You got no one to blame but yourself for the hate you're unleashing in your church. And then when the rest of us point fingers and say you're horrible? Yep.
No, wait, I'm not.
Yes, Mr Pastor: IN YOUR HANDS, YOUR CHURCH IS TRANSFORMED INTO A COLLECTION OF HORRIBLE BACKWARDS NEANDERTHALS. (Although, that's insulting neanderthals, really.)
You got no one to blame but yourself for the hate you're unleashing in your church. And then when the rest of us point fingers and say you're horrible? Yep.
7
OhTheTrees: right, because a WTO-style rioting against those in power is totally comparable to a call for executions of a minority group.
Can't tell if serious or trolling.
Can't tell if serious or trolling.
8
What ever happened to the good old days when feed these pricks to lions? 'Oh, so you’re saying we should go out and start killing them.' No. I’m saying the government should.
9
What ever happened to the good old days when you could feed these pricks to lions? 'Oh, so you’re saying we should go out and start killing them.' No. I’m saying the government should.
10
Ok, so the url name might give away a bit of a bias here, but quotes are quotes:
http://www.evilbible.com/do_not_ignore_o…
Also,
As fine an example of begging the question I've seen in a while.
http://www.evilbible.com/do_not_ignore_o…
Also,
Is that what you’re calling scripture? Is God a neanderthal, backwards in his morality? Is it His word or not? If it’s His word, he commanded it. It’s His idea, not mine.
As fine an example of begging the question I've seen in a while.
11
@8, I think my sibs and I once bought my dad a tee that read "So many right-wing Christians, so few lions".
12
Out of curiosity, I looked up the address on Google Maps. If there is a church there, it isn't the type of church that any of us are used to seeing. My guess is that this guy is very much on the fringe, with a few "parishioners" who meet in someone's basement.
Sure, the guy is a bigot and a dick. But sometimes I wonder if it is worth making a fuss over and giving attention to someone so insignificant.
Sure, the guy is a bigot and a dick. But sometimes I wonder if it is worth making a fuss over and giving attention to someone so insignificant.
13
Again, I think this is great. Not that Pastor Knapp is saying this, but that his words are being made public. Bigotry exists in the shadows & silent understandings. When it is brought to the attention of the world at large, it cannot survive.
14
@7 (daisy), not trolling. And you ignore my first link, where Goldy says "It's Reporting Like This That Makes Me Want to Shoot Somebody in the Head". Ha ha! Hilarious!
I condemn the disgusting comments of that biggotted preacher. I'd even say it is worse than Goldy's comments. But it is hypocritical to condemn the right wing biggot, but condone Goldy's bullshit because his political views are aligned with ours.
I condemn the disgusting comments of that biggotted preacher. I'd even say it is worse than Goldy's comments. But it is hypocritical to condemn the right wing biggot, but condone Goldy's bullshit because his political views are aligned with ours.
15
The worst thing about despicable piles of shit like Pastor Knapp is they are perfectly fine with being despicable piles of shit.
16
And in that one line, we can recognize the outlines of the entire failing of biblical morality -- ceding responsibility to make moral judgments to an invisible higher power, whose pronouncements are implicitly moral simply because they are His pronouncements.
"But God, why should I stab my son? He didn't do anything wrong."
"Because, Abraham, I said you should do it and my saying so magically makes murdering your child into a moral act."
"Thanks, big guy. That really clears up a lot. I'll stop asking so many questions now and get down to killin' whoever you say."
It’s His idea, not mine.
And in that one line, we can recognize the outlines of the entire failing of biblical morality -- ceding responsibility to make moral judgments to an invisible higher power, whose pronouncements are implicitly moral simply because they are His pronouncements.
"But God, why should I stab my son? He didn't do anything wrong."
"Because, Abraham, I said you should do it and my saying so magically makes murdering your child into a moral act."
"Thanks, big guy. That really clears up a lot. I'll stop asking so many questions now and get down to killin' whoever you say."
17
Sounds like we have new evangelical star out of the rich cultural oasis known as Kansas. Just like Westboro, funds running a little low? I know! Let's be super-outrageous and start getting tax-free checks from nut jobs here and around the world! Bet he's already picked out a color for the limo.
We need to start taxing the shimmy-shits out of religious groups who involve themselves with public issues. That'll shut the motherfuckers up post haste.
We need to start taxing the shimmy-shits out of religious groups who involve themselves with public issues. That'll shut the motherfuckers up post haste.
18
If I'm supposed to keep it civil, I'd best not say anything at all. I don't have much civility for advocates of pogroms.
On that note, this is probably one of the few instances in which comparing someone to Hitler would actually be germane and appropriate and would not, in fact, necessarily invoke Godwin's law. When you're advocating state-sponsored genocide I don't think "Nazi" is really a stretch.
And yes, the morality of the Bible is an offense against everything that makes us, as humans, good. I wouldn't call it "neanderthal" because frankly anthropological evidence suggests that neanderthals were rather more peaceable than Homo sapiens sapiens. I'd call it "evil" instead.
On that note, this is probably one of the few instances in which comparing someone to Hitler would actually be germane and appropriate and would not, in fact, necessarily invoke Godwin's law. When you're advocating state-sponsored genocide I don't think "Nazi" is really a stretch.
And yes, the morality of the Bible is an offense against everything that makes us, as humans, good. I wouldn't call it "neanderthal" because frankly anthropological evidence suggests that neanderthals were rather more peaceable than Homo sapiens sapiens. I'd call it "evil" instead.
21
@19: True, but I also am pretty sure he came out and apologized for his statements at a following Savage Love Podcast. I'd be surprised if we will ever get a similar apology from Pastor Knapp. Why would he have to apologize when the man in the sky tells him everything he says is ok...?
22
@19 No biggie. There are not that many Republicans on HBO.
And as far as wishes go it's not a very imaginative wish. First I'd wish something simple to see if my wish powers worked and it wasn't one of them Monkey Paw type situations. Like for a nice bottle of Bourbon - a full bottle, you Monkey Paw - to appear on the cupboard. If it did then I would totally wish all the Republicans out into the corn field. Forever.
And then third would begin my reign of terror. This stage you would recognize because you'd be suddenly hot looking and wanting to have sex with me.
And as far as wishes go it's not a very imaginative wish. First I'd wish something simple to see if my wish powers worked and it wasn't one of them Monkey Paw type situations. Like for a nice bottle of Bourbon - a full bottle, you Monkey Paw - to appear on the cupboard. If it did then I would totally wish all the Republicans out into the corn field. Forever.
And then third would begin my reign of terror. This stage you would recognize because you'd be suddenly hot looking and wanting to have sex with me.
24
What is the evidence that neanderthals had any problems with homosexuality?
It seems more likely that the 'morals' of God are less developed than those of your average neanderthal.
It seems more likely that the 'morals' of God are less developed than those of your average neanderthal.
25
Sad.
I wonder how turnipseeds like Curtis manage to completely ignore Christ's message of love, equality, humbleness and simplicity and still call themselves "Christian?"
They're missing the point by a mile. And 2000 years.
Christianity wouldn't be so bad, if the miserable fuckers would actually practice it.
I wonder how turnipseeds like Curtis manage to completely ignore Christ's message of love, equality, humbleness and simplicity and still call themselves "Christian?"
They're missing the point by a mile. And 2000 years.
Christianity wouldn't be so bad, if the miserable fuckers would actually practice it.
26
Leviticus 20:10
"If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death."
No mention of that. Gee, I wonder why?
"If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death."
No mention of that. Gee, I wonder why?
27
Remember that one time the Gay Agenda rounded up the Christian minority, and beat them and mocked them and executed them? Or just tossed them in prison and made a mean face? Or that one time the Gay Agenda leaned on its monumental popular support to vote to restrict the rights of all those poor conservatives out there? Yeah?
Those times were so terrible, and they totally lend credence to all that "BUT GOLDY SAID" "BUT DAN SAID" stuff. We know from experience that the liberal homofag majority is going to be a force of jackbooted oppression against the faithful of Amercia.
Those times were so terrible, and they totally lend credence to all that "BUT GOLDY SAID" "BUT DAN SAID" stuff. We know from experience that the liberal homofag majority is going to be a force of jackbooted oppression against the faithful of Amercia.
28
If that is the God that these Christians keep trying to interest me in, I'll pass. Clearly my ethical sense is better developed than His is. If such a deity did exist, I'd like to think I'd have the courage to tell Him to fuck off.
30
What are the chances that Pastor Curtis Knapp will be found balls-deep in an altar boy within the year?
31
... And because Dan's an adult, he apologized the very next day, in writing, and said he hadn't meant it, that his dad, in fact, is a Republican, and that, I gather, it had been said in the moment (and pretty much under his breath) simply out of frustration with all that the Republican party has done to hurt the gay community, their desire to rewrite to the U.S. Constitution to guarantee gay folks are denied federal marriage rights, etc etc. etfuckingcetera.
The difference being, this child-man posing as a religious leader, pastor, whatever, actually and fully meant what he said, and would never, I'm quite damned sure, apologize for it.
We need less guys like the pastor, and way more like Dan, in this world.
The difference being, this child-man posing as a religious leader, pastor, whatever, actually and fully meant what he said, and would never, I'm quite damned sure, apologize for it.
We need less guys like the pastor, and way more like Dan, in this world.
32
Mr. Savage, I worry that you'll give yourself an aneurysm continually trying to address these people with reason and evidence, when, clearly, they hate those things. The more reason and evidence you present, the more strongly they believe you're wrong. It's a no-win game.
33
Bonus @10, for the only correct usage of "begging the question" that I've seen in a LONG time. I'm so sick of half-wits on the radio using the phrase to mean "what we should be asking is..." that I almost wish I hadn't quit donating to NPR stations long ago over their center-right political bias, so I could quit over this.
Although admittedly, I've heard it on Democracy Now, too, but they deserve my money 97% of the time.
Although admittedly, I've heard it on Democracy Now, too, but they deserve my money 97% of the time.
34
Shit like this always reminds me of Steven Weinberg's quote: "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
I don't know that this guy is a good man exactly, but I really doubt he'd be on a pulpit calling for genocide without a Bible to thump.
I don't know that this guy is a good man exactly, but I really doubt he'd be on a pulpit calling for genocide without a Bible to thump.
35
@ 5 / ohthetrees : There is a ton of daylight between a little hyperbole and someone who is honest to goodness advocating mass-killing. This pastor is full on advocating violence. Nowhere that I am aware of did Goldy actually put together a serious argument for something like genocide.
37
@16: There's a view held by many Jews (and presumably some Christians) that Abraham failed a test there.
38
@25: GB Shaw said, I think in the preface to "St. Joan": The only thing that can be said against Christianity is that it has never been tried.
39
Something about comments like his made me think of this:
Do these pastors who want to round up the gays, consider that all these gay people have straight parents? The question would have to be asked, "at what age would you like to kill people's children?"
Many teens come out as gay, should they be killed also?
I imagine asking a young couple who are coming out of this lovely, lovely church, "If your baby, yes that baby you are holding in your arms, turns out to be gay, would you be okay with people like your pastor wanting them killed?"
Too many times gay people are portrayed as singular individuals, with no family ties beyond other gays, as if there aren't straight people who love them, like their parents, siblings, cousins, etc.
These pastors may forget that there is a damn fine chance that his congregation has gay relatives. The argument should be put in those terms, not just some unknown gay people out there in Gayland, but their very own relatives, possibly their children, who are being discussed in such vile terms.
Do these pastors who want to round up the gays, consider that all these gay people have straight parents? The question would have to be asked, "at what age would you like to kill people's children?"
Many teens come out as gay, should they be killed also?
I imagine asking a young couple who are coming out of this lovely, lovely church, "If your baby, yes that baby you are holding in your arms, turns out to be gay, would you be okay with people like your pastor wanting them killed?"
Too many times gay people are portrayed as singular individuals, with no family ties beyond other gays, as if there aren't straight people who love them, like their parents, siblings, cousins, etc.
These pastors may forget that there is a damn fine chance that his congregation has gay relatives. The argument should be put in those terms, not just some unknown gay people out there in Gayland, but their very own relatives, possibly their children, who are being discussed in such vile terms.
40
I take this as proof that there is no God. If there were, Knapp would be a pile of ashes about now.
41
My DNA (my brother's actually, but yeah he's my full brother) was recently run down pretty thoroughly, and I have enough Neanderthal in me to justify taking offense.
They've got to stop calling it the word of God, 'cause if it is, we know better, hmmm.
They've got to stop calling it the word of God, 'cause if it is, we know better, hmmm.
42
Venomlash @37: YES!!!! When I found out that there are some Jewish scholars who believe that God asking Abraham to kill Isaac was a test, which Abraham FAILED, I was stunned. Being raised as an evangelical, this story is the entire basis for the concept of Jesus (for God so loved the world, he gave his only begotten son . . .), so the idea that it is a test the Abraham failed is really quite the heretical idea. However, for me, this makes much more sense than the "standard" interpretation for two big reasons.
First, if you read the rest of the Torah, it vehemently forbids Jews to participate in human sacrifice, and tells them to NOT pass their children through the fires of Marduk (human child bonfire sacrifice which was popular at the time). The Jewish God hates human sacrifice and forbids it multiple times (which is why I don't believe Christians and Jews worship the same God), so the idea that he would want Abraham to kill his son is ridiculous.
The second point is that if you read the rest of the story, God never spoke to Abraham again. Up until that point, according to the Torah, God and Abraham spoke on a regular basis, but once Abraham tried to kill his son, God stopped speaking directly to him, and only spoke through an angel.
I know this isn't germane to the post, but you, Venomlash, are the only other person I've heard who knows about this interpretation of the attempted sacrifice of Isaac.
I also know many of you think all of the above is a fairy tale, and perhaps it is. I just enjoy studying it and learning different interpretations to classic Biblical tales.
First, if you read the rest of the Torah, it vehemently forbids Jews to participate in human sacrifice, and tells them to NOT pass their children through the fires of Marduk (human child bonfire sacrifice which was popular at the time). The Jewish God hates human sacrifice and forbids it multiple times (which is why I don't believe Christians and Jews worship the same God), so the idea that he would want Abraham to kill his son is ridiculous.
The second point is that if you read the rest of the story, God never spoke to Abraham again. Up until that point, according to the Torah, God and Abraham spoke on a regular basis, but once Abraham tried to kill his son, God stopped speaking directly to him, and only spoke through an angel.
I know this isn't germane to the post, but you, Venomlash, are the only other person I've heard who knows about this interpretation of the attempted sacrifice of Isaac.
I also know many of you think all of the above is a fairy tale, and perhaps it is. I just enjoy studying it and learning different interpretations to classic Biblical tales.
43
@42: It's not unheard of for important people in Judaism to fail tests. Jonah and the ricinus vine, for example.
44
I think I might actually have to waste my time reading the bible just so I can counter any religious persons arguments should I encounter them. Should be fun reading, considering some of the stuff in there.
45
Holy crap! I just read the quote it seems the land of the free is restricted to straight christians. Any concept of personal liberty goes right out the window with these types. They complain of sharia law and its threat and they want to impose punishments based on the bible? How can anyone believe in killing someone not only based off a book which most people in the world do not follow but also one that has no place in a multi-religion, secular society. This reminds me of the vatican viewing the imprisonment and execution of gays favorably during the holocaust.
Pure evil or lack or critical thought seems to be enough for some people to seriously express such thoughts. Anyone who is indifferent to this is despicable, what if you were targeted because of your religion or dress habits?
Pure evil or lack or critical thought seems to be enough for some people to seriously express such thoughts. Anyone who is indifferent to this is despicable, what if you were targeted because of your religion or dress habits?
46
Just mailed Pastor Knapp a quick letter. The jist of it:
"[...] You ask if we have a better idea than God['s]. No -- we have a better idea of what God's idea is. All you need is read the New Testament, especially the parts in which Jesus is speaking.
What makes you so sure you understand God's ideas? Why do you think that the Old Testament -- which was, in fact, written by men, not by God -- can only be understood the way you understand it?
Remember: the Pharisees and the Sadducees also thought they knew God's ideas. And they were reading basically the same text you were reading. And what was it again that Jesus said about the Pharisees and Sadducees?
If you forget about humility, if you forget about love -- love for all human beings -- to the extent that you wish others would kill them, then you do not act as a follower of Jesus' ideas should. May I respectfully bring 1 Corinthians 13:2-7 to your attention, plus the thought that it would seem homosexuals are also included as objects of love, since they are human?
[...]"
I don't think this will make a difference -- it may well go unread, and probably will go unanswered -- but at least it made me feel better. And that's something.
"[...] You ask if we have a better idea than God['s]. No -- we have a better idea of what God's idea is. All you need is read the New Testament, especially the parts in which Jesus is speaking.
What makes you so sure you understand God's ideas? Why do you think that the Old Testament -- which was, in fact, written by men, not by God -- can only be understood the way you understand it?
Remember: the Pharisees and the Sadducees also thought they knew God's ideas. And they were reading basically the same text you were reading. And what was it again that Jesus said about the Pharisees and Sadducees?
If you forget about humility, if you forget about love -- love for all human beings -- to the extent that you wish others would kill them, then you do not act as a follower of Jesus' ideas should. May I respectfully bring 1 Corinthians 13:2-7 to your attention, plus the thought that it would seem homosexuals are also included as objects of love, since they are human?
[...]"
I don't think this will make a difference -- it may well go unread, and probably will go unanswered -- but at least it made me feel better. And that's something.
47
@37, 42 -- I hadn't heard about this interpretation, and it sounds very interesting. Would any of you guys be able to provide a reference (or link) with further information?
48
@ 47,
You can start here: http://morethodoxy.org/2010/10/12/did-ab…
There is some thought that this "test" was many. There's the very common "obedience" interpretation and Abraham passed. There's the "morality/ ethical/ compassion" interpretation and Abraham failed. There's the "test God's faithfulness" interpretation, because Abraham did show himself relationally confident with God to plead on behalf of innocent individuals in Sodom and no reference is given to his engaging God over hs thinking God wanted his innocent son as an offering. Perhaps these are the roots of how one views scripture in the Abrahamic religions, and why some feel that obedience is highest means of showing fear/ love/ loyalty to God and others feel that allowing their morals/ ethics/ compassion to lead in their relationship with God is how they express their love and loyalty?
Anyway, sorry to interrupt. Nice to see you back and I hope your weeks teaching in Brazil went well.
You can start here: http://morethodoxy.org/2010/10/12/did-ab…
There is some thought that this "test" was many. There's the very common "obedience" interpretation and Abraham passed. There's the "morality/ ethical/ compassion" interpretation and Abraham failed. There's the "test God's faithfulness" interpretation, because Abraham did show himself relationally confident with God to plead on behalf of innocent individuals in Sodom and no reference is given to his engaging God over hs thinking God wanted his innocent son as an offering. Perhaps these are the roots of how one views scripture in the Abrahamic religions, and why some feel that obedience is highest means of showing fear/ love/ loyalty to God and others feel that allowing their morals/ ethics/ compassion to lead in their relationship with God is how they express their love and loyalty?
Anyway, sorry to interrupt. Nice to see you back and I hope your weeks teaching in Brazil went well.
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