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News & ArtsThursday, March 29, 2012
Media / Tech / Theater A Beautiful Lie?
Posted by Goldy on Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 2:58 PM
Foxconn, the Chinese electronics manufacturing behemoth, has promised to sharply curtail working hours and increase worker pay, after an investigation by the Fair Labor Association found numerous examples of the company violating Chinese law and industry codes of conduct. The investigation came at the behest of Apple, after the iPhone maker came under intense criticism for working conditions at plants operated by Foxconn and other contract suppliers.
Criticism of Apple and Foxconn (which also happens to assemble products for Dell, Amazon, and other major brands) had been slowly building for years, but came to a head recently following the success of local monologuist Mike Daisey's The Agony and Ecstasy of Steve Jobs, which, much to Daisey's shame, was recently revealed to be largely fictionalized. His questionable methodology aside, without Daisey's effective storytelling, Apple might never have joined the Fair Labor Association and requested the investigation, or at the very least, might have waited much longer to do so.
So... do the ends justify the means? If, hypothetically, Daisey's beautifully constructed lie ultimately served to improve the lives of hundreds of thousands of Foxconn workers, was it worth it? Or must we always meticulously stick to the facts, even when it gets in the way of communicating a larger truth?
28
A lie is formed in the teller's mind. Even if what he said is factual, if he thought he was lying, then he lied. Judge the man by that. Or better yet: judge not... Know what I mean?
Don't trust his work if need be, but lies flow so freely in the world that the amount of attention devoted to this one lie is conspicuous.
Don't trust his work if need be, but lies flow so freely in the world that the amount of attention devoted to this one lie is conspicuous.
27
@26, You take two paragraphs to attack the man for his weight, and one to attack your perception of his actions.
Ignoring all your hyperbole and personal attacks, you claim that his thesis is based on lies. For the record, there was a lot of truth in there, it's just that Daisey hadn't witnessed it. I may have not witnessed a historical event, but me claiming that I did doesn't change the fact that it did happen.
I guess your screed proves that unfortunate aspect of modern politics as practiced by the GOP...if you can attack the messenger, the message is now untrue. God forbid the messenger be overweight, unless of course it's Rush Limpaugh in which case "how dare you!".
Ignoring all your hyperbole and personal attacks, you claim that his thesis is based on lies. For the record, there was a lot of truth in there, it's just that Daisey hadn't witnessed it. I may have not witnessed a historical event, but me claiming that I did doesn't change the fact that it did happen.
I guess your screed proves that unfortunate aspect of modern politics as practiced by the GOP...if you can attack the messenger, the message is now untrue. God forbid the messenger be overweight, unless of course it's Rush Limpaugh in which case "how dare you!".
26
4
Absolutely no way to define Daisey's "theater" as anything but self-serving nonsense. He said lies were facts. His thesis is based upon lies, therefore the thesis is a lie, as borne by the latest facts. His "show" is all about how super-hero Daisey, from his "Secret Fortress on the Web," singularly reveals endemically enslaved children, mutilated peasants and murdered union laborers (all debunked myths, of course), he'll save them if we all just clap our hands loudly and at the right moment!
From a man so incapable of managing a meal or exercise plan he'd be relegated to character roles like "glutton" in films like "Se7en," so incapable of blending fact and fiction in honest, transcendent work that we are instead subjected debacles like the retraction on "This American Life," we get all that's left--pathologically designed propaganda primarily designed to improve the bank and self-image of an undisciplined, over-weighted hack.
He's bloated himself with empty calories, his wallet with empty stories and vacuous lies, and our unwarranted attention. No more than a hustler, a grifter who has fed off white, middle-class consumerist guilt, he might consider donating to the workers of both Foxconn and Apple every penny of the gates he's culled via his own exploitation of the innocent and hard-working.
Absolutely no way to define Daisey's "theater" as anything but self-serving nonsense. He said lies were facts. His thesis is based upon lies, therefore the thesis is a lie, as borne by the latest facts. His "show" is all about how super-hero Daisey, from his "Secret Fortress on the Web," singularly reveals endemically enslaved children, mutilated peasants and murdered union laborers (all debunked myths, of course), he'll save them if we all just clap our hands loudly and at the right moment!
From a man so incapable of managing a meal or exercise plan he'd be relegated to character roles like "glutton" in films like "Se7en," so incapable of blending fact and fiction in honest, transcendent work that we are instead subjected debacles like the retraction on "This American Life," we get all that's left--pathologically designed propaganda primarily designed to improve the bank and self-image of an undisciplined, over-weighted hack.
He's bloated himself with empty calories, his wallet with empty stories and vacuous lies, and our unwarranted attention. No more than a hustler, a grifter who has fed off white, middle-class consumerist guilt, he might consider donating to the workers of both Foxconn and Apple every penny of the gates he's culled via his own exploitation of the innocent and hard-working.
25
@24: There's a difference between saying "largely fictionalized" and "largely fiction." When a writer fictionalizes an historical person or event, that doesn't mean that much of the piece is untrue, just that it's not history. It's been fictionalized. Facts have been changed to dramatic purposes. Poetic license and all that. And that's what Daisey did.
24
""largely fictionalized" is your own beautiful lie. Yeah, Daisey's unscripted monlogue began to incorporate false events and unverifyable memories over the series of performances, but even those lies were mainly truths that happened elsewhere and that he didn't personally experience. Go with "partially fictionalized" or some other phrase. There were lies, but "it was all a big fat lie" isn't true either."
Except that the whole translator he quoted as telling it to him was also fictional. I agree that it happens elsewhere in the world, but fuck Daisey and any of his tainted message.
Except that the whole translator he quoted as telling it to him was also fictional. I agree that it happens elsewhere in the world, but fuck Daisey and any of his tainted message.
23
His lies may have resulted in an actual investigation which found labor violations, but the longer term problem is that in the future, legitimate investigations can be slandered as being another "The Agony and the Ecstasy of Steve Jobs."
21
Ends, and it sounds like people on both sides of the issue agree on that, but the argument comes over a) did he effect meaningful change, and b) will his actions have a chilling affect on other stories and calls for reform.
The point being that the ends are not as simple as they may seem.
The point being that the ends are not as simple as they may seem.
20
Glenn @16: Well, my chronology holds, Daisey did play a role in building up the pressure, and I couch the implication of causation within a "might." So considering the fact that I am explicitly setting up a hypothetical question (as in "If, hypothetically, Daisey's beautifully constructed lie ultimately served to improve the lives..."), I think "full of it" is too strong a critique.
Honestly, as someone who has covered politics for years and who has seen dishonesty triumph again and again, my interest here is to explore a hypothetical that has bothered me for some time. Faced with the opportunity to achieve positive and substantial change through a lie, would I do it?
Honestly, as someone who has covered politics for years and who has seen dishonesty triumph again and again, my interest here is to explore a hypothetical that has bothered me for some time. Faced with the opportunity to achieve positive and substantial change through a lie, would I do it?
19
@15: There were things that were definitely untrue, though. If an outsider can easily meet a gaggle of 11-13 year old girls working at the plant within a couple of days of standing outside, that's an indication that there are a ton of underage workers at Foxconn. The evidence, however, shows that there's been a few, but that Foxconn has been relatively diligent about trying to avoid underage workers. That doesn't mean there are none, but it's hardly the wink-wink-nudge-nudge pretending to care that's implied by Daisey's, "Do you think Apple doesn't know?"
These things matter. The truth matters.
These things matter. The truth matters.
18
MIKE DAISEY SAVED A BILLION CHINESE YOU GUYS!
A billion Chinese would have never thought of labor rights and standards on their own. They were just waiting for a white guy with a theater degree to come along.
A billion Chinese would have never thought of labor rights and standards on their own. They were just waiting for a white guy with a theater degree to come along.
16
Goldy, you're full of it with this statement: "Apple might never have joined the Fair Labor Association and requested the investigation." I know, you like to push buttons.
The FLA said today that it had been in discussions for _years_ with Apple about joining, and the negotiations that led to its announcement shortly after the This American Life episode aired had been underway for some time. A $500 billion company known for its strategy execution doesn't freak out over a public-radio program and in two days agree to a new approach that requires the participation of its suppliers. That was underway.
You can choose to believe that the FLA is lying and that Apple freaked out. Unlikely.
I asked the New York Times (in the form of editor David Gallagher) whether Daisey had any influence on the Times pieces. Gallagher said, as you can tell from reading the articles, that they had been underway for quite a while. You could argue that Daisey's monologue first went into theatres in early 2011, and the Times was reacting to that, but Daisey was using incidents already reported in the New York Times and elsewhere as the basis of his fabrication, so it's hard to see the connection. The Times has several people and many stringers on the ground in China, and while Daisey maintained in his show as the Stranger pointed out in 2011 that the New York Times wasn't covering these issues and specifically didn't write about Shenzhen, the Times had a long history of covering abuses in electronics and other manufacturing issues in China.
So: Daisey took stuff from the news, pretended it was his own, and Apple acted clearly in response to public pressure but not in response to Daisey (nor the New York Times) in its plan. Let's say that public scrutiny worked, but not specifically that Daisey or the Times made Apple suddenly make changes.
More...
The FLA said today that it had been in discussions for _years_ with Apple about joining, and the negotiations that led to its announcement shortly after the This American Life episode aired had been underway for some time. A $500 billion company known for its strategy execution doesn't freak out over a public-radio program and in two days agree to a new approach that requires the participation of its suppliers. That was underway.
You can choose to believe that the FLA is lying and that Apple freaked out. Unlikely.
I asked the New York Times (in the form of editor David Gallagher) whether Daisey had any influence on the Times pieces. Gallagher said, as you can tell from reading the articles, that they had been underway for quite a while. You could argue that Daisey's monologue first went into theatres in early 2011, and the Times was reacting to that, but Daisey was using incidents already reported in the New York Times and elsewhere as the basis of his fabrication, so it's hard to see the connection. The Times has several people and many stringers on the ground in China, and while Daisey maintained in his show as the Stranger pointed out in 2011 that the New York Times wasn't covering these issues and specifically didn't write about Shenzhen, the Times had a long history of covering abuses in electronics and other manufacturing issues in China.
So: Daisey took stuff from the news, pretended it was his own, and Apple acted clearly in response to public pressure but not in response to Daisey (nor the New York Times) in its plan. Let's say that public scrutiny worked, but not specifically that Daisey or the Times made Apple suddenly make changes.
15
It's not so much that Daisey lied, it's that he misappropriated other truths. The danger here is that those truths that weren't his, may now be considered false because of his actions.
It didn't have to be this way as @10 points out. I've seen plenty of powerful documentaries where the filmmaker did not personally experience every moment depicted. You can tell someone else's story within the context of your own, but you can't pretend that it's wholly your story when it clearly is not.
It didn't have to be this way as @10 points out. I've seen plenty of powerful documentaries where the filmmaker did not personally experience every moment depicted. You can tell someone else's story within the context of your own, but you can't pretend that it's wholly your story when it clearly is not.
14
Agree with @11 that "largely fictionalized" could be more accurately written as "partially fictionalized."
Strongly disagree with sentiment that it is wrong to point out bad labor practices in one locale if worse conditions exist in some other locale; The strength of targeting Apple and its relatively affluent and socially-conscious customers is that Apple is an industry leader. If they make changes and continue to make a profit, the rest of the industry might follow suit.
If you want to change agricultural practices, go after McDonald's. If you want to change computer manufacturing practices, go after Apple.
Strongly disagree with sentiment that it is wrong to point out bad labor practices in one locale if worse conditions exist in some other locale; The strength of targeting Apple and its relatively affluent and socially-conscious customers is that Apple is an industry leader. If they make changes and continue to make a profit, the rest of the industry might follow suit.
If you want to change agricultural practices, go after McDonald's. If you want to change computer manufacturing practices, go after Apple.
13
Clearly he should be judged by the fact that he is a fat, sweaty, pallid, soft-voiced little dude who could definitely not actually be an important person in any way.
It's just as valid as this false dilemma you're presenting.
It's just as valid as this false dilemma you're presenting.
12
He should be judged by a jury of his peers.
Actors, playwrights, and storytellers.
Not by you mean and viscous Journalists.
Or your corporate masters ...
Actors, playwrights, and storytellers.
Not by you mean and viscous Journalists.
Or your corporate masters ...
11
"largely fictionalized" is your own beautiful lie. Yeah, Daisey's unscripted monlogue began to incorporate false events and unverifyable memories over the series of performances, but even those lies were mainly truths that happened elsewhere and that he didn't personally experience. Go with "partially fictionalized" or some other phrase. There were lies, but "it was all a big fat lie" isn't true either.
10
"Or must we always meticulously stick to the facts, even when it gets in the way of communicating a larger truth?"
I reject the hypothesis that a "larger truth" cannot be told by sticking to the facts. Mike Daisey could have had a great show if he had been honest about his methods, and told people up front that his work was only partly based on his own experiences.
I reject the hypothesis that a "larger truth" cannot be told by sticking to the facts. Mike Daisey could have had a great show if he had been honest about his methods, and told people up front that his work was only partly based on his own experiences.
9
How's your AAPL stock doing Goldsteinberg? Enjoying your 'blood libel'?
I bought mine at 18 before the split. How else could I afford the time to be your favorite goyem? However, unlike you, the 'hypocrite', I have no problem with the way Foxconn and Apple do business and hope this doesn't affect shareholder value. Chinese were banging down the door to make these products at Foxconn.
BTW shouldn't you disclose your conflict of interest?
I bought mine at 18 before the split. How else could I afford the time to be your favorite goyem? However, unlike you, the 'hypocrite', I have no problem with the way Foxconn and Apple do business and hope this doesn't affect shareholder value. Chinese were banging down the door to make these products at Foxconn.
BTW shouldn't you disclose your conflict of interest?
8
I was just reading an interview with Robert Redford where he laments the decline of journalism and praises the rise of the documentary in it's place. This episode seems to be a confirmation of that.
7
The beautifully-constructed lies told on Fox News may get them what they want, also. It's a reprehensible tactic of manipulation, fictionalizing the truth for greater "impact".
6
In an isolated incident, sure, it could be argued his methods worked. Lying can work.
But what about the long term ramifications to society if this becomes an acceptable type of approach? And if people are calling wolf all the time and it's only sometimes accurate or effective, how much harder will it be to catch and solve problems in the future?
Because of this, I still have to condemn his methods, regardless of results. I hope Daisey (and those taking up similar tasks) work on mastering the art of selling a cause, and not lying/fabrications for one.
But what about the long term ramifications to society if this becomes an acceptable type of approach? And if people are calling wolf all the time and it's only sometimes accurate or effective, how much harder will it be to catch and solve problems in the future?
Because of this, I still have to condemn his methods, regardless of results. I hope Daisey (and those taking up similar tasks) work on mastering the art of selling a cause, and not lying/fabrications for one.
5
I think he did more long term harm than good.
His monologue was very affecting and moving. But it tagged a lot of emotion to Steve Jobs, Apple, and one particular factory, ignoring the fact that, as Fnarf points out, there are tons of factories with even worse condition, and practically every electronics manufacturer uses similar factories, not just Apple. Same with your clothes and your shoes and the toys your kids play with, etc.
So now he's pissed his credibility away, and improvements have been made in one factory, and everyone will think the problem is solved. Anyone who points out the problems with other factories will now have to do so over the wreckage of Mike Daisy's ruined credibility. Nobody will believe them.
Thanks for nothing, Mike.
His monologue was very affecting and moving. But it tagged a lot of emotion to Steve Jobs, Apple, and one particular factory, ignoring the fact that, as Fnarf points out, there are tons of factories with even worse condition, and practically every electronics manufacturer uses similar factories, not just Apple. Same with your clothes and your shoes and the toys your kids play with, etc.
So now he's pissed his credibility away, and improvements have been made in one factory, and everyone will think the problem is solved. Anyone who points out the problems with other factories will now have to do so over the wreckage of Mike Daisy's ruined credibility. Nobody will believe them.
Thanks for nothing, Mike.
4
without Daisey's effective storytelling, Apple might never have joined the Fair Labor Association and requested the investigation, or at the very least, might have waited much longer to do so.
There's a little paper called the New York Times that would like to remind you that Mike Daisey was far from the only person covering this story.
There's a little paper called the New York Times that would like to remind you that Mike Daisey was far from the only person covering this story.
3
Correction: FORMER local monologuist Mike Daisey; Mike isn't a Seattle native and hasn't lived here for approximately a decade.
2
I judge him by (c) irrelevancy.
There are thousands upon thousands upon thousands of factories in China that make Foxconn look like a model of how to do it, by Chinese standards.
There are thousands upon thousands upon thousands of factories in China that make Foxconn look like a model of how to do it, by Chinese standards.
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