Slog
News & ArtsFriday, March 16, 2012
LGBTQITSLFA The Rutgers Verdict
Posted by Dan Savage on Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 11:24 AM
People want to know what I think in the wake of the Rutgers verdict today. My thinking hasn't changed.
1
Still though, how do you feel about the actual guilty verdict Dan? You're certainly right that there were in all likelihood many more incidents before the one at Rutgers, and Dharun Ravi shouldn't bear all of the blame...but don't you think he should get some punishment?
One of the things I find most telling about Ravi is his rejection of a plea deal prior to trial. According to the MSNBC write-up, he was offered probation with no jail time, 600 hours of community service, and assistance with avoiding deportation. Now he's facing 10 years in prison (and deportation).
The fact that he rejected this sweet plea deal says a lot about his mentality. It doesn't sound like he ever thought he did anything wrong, on any level, whatsoever. So, for that reason, I'm encouraged that he will likely do some time. This trial isn't going to solve the overall problem, but at least it's sending a message.
One of the things I find most telling about Ravi is his rejection of a plea deal prior to trial. According to the MSNBC write-up, he was offered probation with no jail time, 600 hours of community service, and assistance with avoiding deportation. Now he's facing 10 years in prison (and deportation).
The fact that he rejected this sweet plea deal says a lot about his mentality. It doesn't sound like he ever thought he did anything wrong, on any level, whatsoever. So, for that reason, I'm encouraged that he will likely do some time. This trial isn't going to solve the overall problem, but at least it's sending a message.
2
Dan, just sent an email, but then found your post. I just read your post and agree with almost everything you did back in October of 2010. But now, what about what faces Dharun Ravi? Can he be sentenced fairly? Will the sentence look to justice, or to making an Ravi either an example, or so that the Judge does not seem to lenient.
I hope the judge has true wisdom.
It's just such a tragedy for all.
I hope the judge has true wisdom.
It's just such a tragedy for all.
3
I don't like this prosecution. It was a back-door murder trial and witch hunt. Ravi was a stupid jerk, but a fifteen count indictment? If Tyler had lived, this trial would never have happened. Justice has to be even-handed.
4
I don't agree.
The 'other boy' was 30 years old. Not a fellow college student.
And Clementi did have a caring support system. His parents and friends knew he was out, and didn't have a problem with it. There was no anti-gay church, no "God problem" or religious leaders condemning him. His RA offered him a place to sleep for the night.
I do agree that this was the last straw in a week of bulling by his roommate. And apparently the jury agreed.
The 'other boy' was 30 years old. Not a fellow college student.
And Clementi did have a caring support system. His parents and friends knew he was out, and didn't have a problem with it. There was no anti-gay church, no "God problem" or religious leaders condemning him. His RA offered him a place to sleep for the night.
I do agree that this was the last straw in a week of bulling by his roommate. And apparently the jury agreed.
5
Totally agree with Dan and #3. Though I'd always had reservations about "hate crimes," reading the New Yorker article on the Clementi case clinched my opposition to the whole trial. This was a political trial. There was no rule of law here. I am appalled. But America is becoming a lawless place more and more...
6
He invaded Tyler's privacy. He was convicted. In the grand scheme, though, Invasion of privacy doesn't seem like a crime worth more than a year in jail.
Simply having a criminal record will affect him the most (employment & possible deportation). That's probably the greatest punishment. His employment will now be subject to the bias that many people have regarding those with a criminal record, no matter how much they may have reformed. I hope he finds the compassion of future employers. The compassion he, himself, did not demonstrate.
Simply having a criminal record will affect him the most (employment & possible deportation). That's probably the greatest punishment. His employment will now be subject to the bias that many people have regarding those with a criminal record, no matter how much they may have reformed. I hope he finds the compassion of future employers. The compassion he, himself, did not demonstrate.
7
I hate this. The boy who killed himself, while tragic, seemed to have some other issues going on there, and Ravi, while a douche, is not even close to the worst bully we've seen in the media.
Yet he is, by far, getting the worst treatment out of any of the gay-bullies we see in the media. 10 years and deportation? What? This is just flat-out ridiculous.
Look. Bullying is a huge problem. A lot of homosexual people kill themselves because of it (as do plenty of non-homosexuals people who are bullied), and we should seek to stamp it out wherever it arises. But that is not just what was going on here; this was not repeated bullying that forced Tyler to kill himself. This was a couple incidents.
Why are we coming down so hard on Ravi, while other bullies are let walk for much, much worse? None of this sits right with me. I don't know why they chose to make this kid an example and stick his head on a pike (metaphorically), but I disagree with the whole thing.
Yet he is, by far, getting the worst treatment out of any of the gay-bullies we see in the media. 10 years and deportation? What? This is just flat-out ridiculous.
Look. Bullying is a huge problem. A lot of homosexual people kill themselves because of it (as do plenty of non-homosexuals people who are bullied), and we should seek to stamp it out wherever it arises. But that is not just what was going on here; this was not repeated bullying that forced Tyler to kill himself. This was a couple incidents.
Why are we coming down so hard on Ravi, while other bullies are let walk for much, much worse? None of this sits right with me. I don't know why they chose to make this kid an example and stick his head on a pike (metaphorically), but I disagree with the whole thing.
8
Following the link to the original SLOG post gives us good thoughts (this may have been the last straw and people face lifetimes of stressors) and bad (the other person didn't kill himself asif that means anything). What does this tell us? It does NOT tell us this single event wasn't enough to kill Clementi. There are two obvious reasons. First, say Ravi shot both people and one lived. Doesn't mean there was preexisting injury to Clementi. Second, we all know many people go through abuse (or not!) then only a very select few kill themselves. Suicide is a complex multifactorial problem and based on Clementi's relatively calm response to hearing the news we know it wasn't the only factor in his suicide. Perhaps he learned it was about to become more public or get home, or something else happened; the second person is irrelevant.
And yes, Ravi is a total jerk and ten years is too much for an obnoxious act that he might have done to any roommate straight or gay.
And yes, Ravi is a total jerk and ten years is too much for an obnoxious act that he might have done to any roommate straight or gay.
9
I just don't understand how Tyler's family could sanctimoniously show up in the courtroom everyday watching the state prosecute some stupid teenager for a stupid teenage prank, when in all likelihood their own treatment of their gay son was just as important a factor in provoking his suicide than the aforementioned stupid teenager, who is now going to go to jail and be deported.
When Tyler came out to his parents, his mother was unkind, prompting Tyler to tell a friend that "mom has basically completely rejected me." If these people -- who were adults, and were Tyler's parents, and had another gay son for crying out loud -- could not behave maturely in the face of Tyler's sexual identity, how can they blame someone else for behaving like an idiot toward Tyler?
I am sure that Tyler's parents could have convinced the prosecutors to stop this unfair and ridiculous trial. Remember how Matthew Shepard's parents brokered a deal to spare one of his killers from being executed? That was really powerful.
People need to learn how to forgive each other and move on. Tyler's death would have done just as much to bring attention to the suffering of gay teens without destroying the life of another teenager.
When Tyler came out to his parents, his mother was unkind, prompting Tyler to tell a friend that "mom has basically completely rejected me." If these people -- who were adults, and were Tyler's parents, and had another gay son for crying out loud -- could not behave maturely in the face of Tyler's sexual identity, how can they blame someone else for behaving like an idiot toward Tyler?
I am sure that Tyler's parents could have convinced the prosecutors to stop this unfair and ridiculous trial. Remember how Matthew Shepard's parents brokered a deal to spare one of his killers from being executed? That was really powerful.
People need to learn how to forgive each other and move on. Tyler's death would have done just as much to bring attention to the suffering of gay teens without destroying the life of another teenager.
10
I was going to mention Tyler's parents, but not_too_creative above already did. I basically agree with him/her. As for Ravi, I'm glad when bullies get something back, but this goes beyond 'appropriate' for me. I'll bet right-wing commentators will use this to complain about 'the liberal elites' and how they're destroying American ideals of freedom and fairness.
11
I'd highly recommend last month's New Yorker article on the case -- nyr.kr/w2qug6
Exhaustively researched, including emails and other internet communication from the involved parties. Two major points to take away from it:
1) Dharun Ravi was an asshole, but he didn't quite do what everyone seems to think he did based on reading headlines and skimming the first few paragraphs of articles. What he did was bad enough, and he deserves punishment for it. But mostly he did what assholes do -- whatever the hell he wanted, without thinking about the consequences or the effect on the person he was doing it to.
2) Tyler Clementi had problems long before the spying incidents. He was a bright, weird, extremely shy kid. (The kind of kid I wish I had gotten to know, if only to let him know that bright, weird, shy kids can grow up to be bright, weird, shy, happy adults.) My amateur opinion based on information in the article is that at the very least he fit the criteria for a Social Anxiety Disorder diagnosis, and he may have even been on the Autism Spectrum. Even friendly, positive social interactions seemed to terrify him. He had a lot of support from friends and from powers that be at Rutgers, but the spying incidents just plain broke him.
I have such mixed feelings about the verdicts. This instance of suicide-from-anti-gay-bullying is being lumped in with the others that occurred around the same time and has people crying out for blood, but I believe other factors place it in a different category.
I think the plea deal Ravi turned down would have been a just punishment, especially if the 600 hours of community service had been carefully chosen by the courts. But it would have meant Ravi standing up and saying, "I was an asshole. I didn't mean for anyone to get hurt by what I did, and I certainly didn't mean for anyone to die. But someone did, and I am prepared to accept the consequences." And he doesn't seem to have been able to admit that.
More...
Exhaustively researched, including emails and other internet communication from the involved parties. Two major points to take away from it:
1) Dharun Ravi was an asshole, but he didn't quite do what everyone seems to think he did based on reading headlines and skimming the first few paragraphs of articles. What he did was bad enough, and he deserves punishment for it. But mostly he did what assholes do -- whatever the hell he wanted, without thinking about the consequences or the effect on the person he was doing it to.
2) Tyler Clementi had problems long before the spying incidents. He was a bright, weird, extremely shy kid. (The kind of kid I wish I had gotten to know, if only to let him know that bright, weird, shy kids can grow up to be bright, weird, shy, happy adults.) My amateur opinion based on information in the article is that at the very least he fit the criteria for a Social Anxiety Disorder diagnosis, and he may have even been on the Autism Spectrum. Even friendly, positive social interactions seemed to terrify him. He had a lot of support from friends and from powers that be at Rutgers, but the spying incidents just plain broke him.
I have such mixed feelings about the verdicts. This instance of suicide-from-anti-gay-bullying is being lumped in with the others that occurred around the same time and has people crying out for blood, but I believe other factors place it in a different category.
I think the plea deal Ravi turned down would have been a just punishment, especially if the 600 hours of community service had been carefully chosen by the courts. But it would have meant Ravi standing up and saying, "I was an asshole. I didn't mean for anyone to get hurt by what I did, and I certainly didn't mean for anyone to die. But someone did, and I am prepared to accept the consequences." And he doesn't seem to have been able to admit that.
12
Ravi wasn't tried for the boys death. Although some of the witnesses mentioned it, it wasn't part of the prosecutions arguments.
Like it or not, Ravi was tried and convicted for biased based intimidation, invasion of privacy, and evidence tampering. All things he was apparently guilty of. There is a penalty for that and he should face it.
That his actions contributed to the death of someone, even if it wasn't the sole cause (and everyone is speculating about other causes, but the only factor we actually do know for certain that contributed was Ravi's actions), and that his actions were utterly cruel, may mean that some people are taking extra satisfaction in the results of this trial. But he committed specific crimes other than the death of his roommate that he was found guilty of, and he will face the penalty. I don't see anything wrong with that. If Clementi had lived he still would have been guilty of those crimes and he should still be punished for them.
And while I am very liberal on immigration in general have no problem with an immigrant who has not become a citizen and has been found guilty of a felony being deported. As long as they receive a fair trial I think that should be a pretty standard part of the punishment.
Ravi is a scum bag. He may not necessarily be THE reason Clementi killed himself, but he was cruel and mean spirited in what he did, and he DID break the law.
If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.
Like it or not, Ravi was tried and convicted for biased based intimidation, invasion of privacy, and evidence tampering. All things he was apparently guilty of. There is a penalty for that and he should face it.
That his actions contributed to the death of someone, even if it wasn't the sole cause (and everyone is speculating about other causes, but the only factor we actually do know for certain that contributed was Ravi's actions), and that his actions were utterly cruel, may mean that some people are taking extra satisfaction in the results of this trial. But he committed specific crimes other than the death of his roommate that he was found guilty of, and he will face the penalty. I don't see anything wrong with that. If Clementi had lived he still would have been guilty of those crimes and he should still be punished for them.
And while I am very liberal on immigration in general have no problem with an immigrant who has not become a citizen and has been found guilty of a felony being deported. As long as they receive a fair trial I think that should be a pretty standard part of the punishment.
Ravi is a scum bag. He may not necessarily be THE reason Clementi killed himself, but he was cruel and mean spirited in what he did, and he DID break the law.
If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.
13
The takeaway should be: don't webcam people without their consent. While there appears to be an element of overkill in this verdict, if it scares future would-be pranksters away from this particular type of invasion of property, then it will have done some good.
Long term, the whole practice of pairing strangers as college roommates might need to end. Future dorms should be overwhelmingly composed of single-occupancy rooms--reserve the double rooms for friends who both actively choose the other to be their roommate, or maybe eliminate doubles entirely. Another option could be quads, and the like--four individual sleeping rooms that share a common living area, so everyone has the advantages of learning to share a space, while everyone retains a private space to study, fool around, masturbate, and sleep.
Long term, the whole practice of pairing strangers as college roommates might need to end. Future dorms should be overwhelmingly composed of single-occupancy rooms--reserve the double rooms for friends who both actively choose the other to be their roommate, or maybe eliminate doubles entirely. Another option could be quads, and the like--four individual sleeping rooms that share a common living area, so everyone has the advantages of learning to share a space, while everyone retains a private space to study, fool around, masturbate, and sleep.
14
Very sad. This is way over the top for a stupid college prank. The gay community has over-reacted as well, and this makes us look like bullies. Lambda Legal's press release does nothing to counter this perception. Read the New Yorker article.
Justice was not served today.
Justice was not served today.
15
It's a nice idea Functional, but not practical. The cost of education and board at college is skyrocketing. Everyone having private rooms is not feasible. The cost would be prohibitive. When I went to college we had the common room set up, but each room slept two, so there were eight people sharing the common room and common bathroom. Reducing that to one person per room would have required twice the space, including twice the number of bathrooms. Cost prohibitive. Most students can barely afford the current arrangements.
Don't get me wrong, I would have loved to have had my own room in college. It just isn't practical.
However, more effort should be made to help pair roommates up with people who are at least somewhat compatible. I think the only question I was asked about compatibility when I went to college was smoker or non smoker. Also when someone requests a change in roommates a greater effort should be made to get that done quickly.
Don't get me wrong, I would have loved to have had my own room in college. It just isn't practical.
However, more effort should be made to help pair roommates up with people who are at least somewhat compatible. I think the only question I was asked about compatibility when I went to college was smoker or non smoker. Also when someone requests a change in roommates a greater effort should be made to get that done quickly.
16
Dan's comparison with Tyler's date M.B is bad. Tyler had it worse than M.B., because Tyler and the perps knew each other and he would have to see them again.
I read the New Yorker article and watched the summaries of the defense and prosecution. The evidence was overwhelming. What kind of cold-blooded person says yes to a request for privacy then videos it and brags about it on Twitter? His lies and coverups were sadly transparent. That he didn't take the plea deal in the face of overwhelming evidence is baffling. People say, "well isn't it enough that he has to live with this for the rest of his life? I hope he can forgive himself." Ravi doesn't seem bothered at all.
Here's another spycam case:
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/s…
I read the New Yorker article and watched the summaries of the defense and prosecution. The evidence was overwhelming. What kind of cold-blooded person says yes to a request for privacy then videos it and brags about it on Twitter? His lies and coverups were sadly transparent. That he didn't take the plea deal in the face of overwhelming evidence is baffling. People say, "well isn't it enough that he has to live with this for the rest of his life? I hope he can forgive himself." Ravi doesn't seem bothered at all.
Here's another spycam case:
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/s…
"It was shocking, very shocking for all of us," said the woman's mother.
A representative with the City of Winnipeg contacted the swim teacher on Monday.
"Our staff had direct communication with the individual by phone, offering support to deal with the situation. The individual informed us about still being distraught, possibly needing support in the future," city spokesman Steve West said in an email.
17
I want to add one more thing to respond to people who think that Dharun Ravi must be a complete asshole for refusing to take the plea deal and do community service. Ravi is obviously a moron and possibly an asshole, but not because he didn't take the plea deal.
After an immigrant is convicted of or pleads guilty to a crime, the case is turned over to U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, and they decide whether or not to deport him. The prosecutors have no control over ICE's deportation decisions. I have clients who have pleaded guilty to very minor crimes, received probation, and then been deported by ICE.
Thus, the plea deal presented to Ravi was not "plead guilty, do 600 hours of community service, and go free." The deal would have been more like "plead guilty, do 600 hours of community service, and then the prosecutors will put in a good word with ICE, but we can't guarantee that ICE won't revoke your green card and deport you."
Understandably, Ravi did not want to run the risk of being expelled from the country he has lived in for most of his life, so he decided to roll the dice and go to trial. In retrospect, it would have been smarter to plead guilty, because he will probably now be deported after serving prison time.
But the fact that he went to trial does not mean that he doesn't feel bad about Tyler's suicide, or accept that what he did was wrong. Indeed, the text message that Ravi sent to Tyler shortly after Tyler killed himself (but before Ravi learned of the suicide) strongly suggests the opposite:
"I've known you were gay and I have no problem with it. In fact, one of my closest friends is gay and he and I have a very open relationship. I just suspected you were shy about it which is why I never broached the topic. I don't want your freshman year to be ruined because of a petty misunderstanding, it's adding to my guilt. You have the right to move if you wish, but I don't want you to feel pressured without fully understanding the situation."
More...
After an immigrant is convicted of or pleads guilty to a crime, the case is turned over to U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, and they decide whether or not to deport him. The prosecutors have no control over ICE's deportation decisions. I have clients who have pleaded guilty to very minor crimes, received probation, and then been deported by ICE.
Thus, the plea deal presented to Ravi was not "plead guilty, do 600 hours of community service, and go free." The deal would have been more like "plead guilty, do 600 hours of community service, and then the prosecutors will put in a good word with ICE, but we can't guarantee that ICE won't revoke your green card and deport you."
Understandably, Ravi did not want to run the risk of being expelled from the country he has lived in for most of his life, so he decided to roll the dice and go to trial. In retrospect, it would have been smarter to plead guilty, because he will probably now be deported after serving prison time.
But the fact that he went to trial does not mean that he doesn't feel bad about Tyler's suicide, or accept that what he did was wrong. Indeed, the text message that Ravi sent to Tyler shortly after Tyler killed himself (but before Ravi learned of the suicide) strongly suggests the opposite:
"I've known you were gay and I have no problem with it. In fact, one of my closest friends is gay and he and I have a very open relationship. I just suspected you were shy about it which is why I never broached the topic. I don't want your freshman year to be ruined because of a petty misunderstanding, it's adding to my guilt. You have the right to move if you wish, but I don't want you to feel pressured without fully understanding the situation."
18
Sorry Dan, you got this one wrong. Your entire opinion piece is about why Ravi wasn't responsible for Clementi's suicide. But he was never charged with that. He was charged with invasion of privacy and bias intimidation--offenses which it is very hard to argue he didn't commit (as the defense found out). His convictions are for his behavior, not for any consequences of that behavior resulting in Clememte's death. I totally agree that the lynch mob mentality is wrong. And I would not like to see Ravi go to prison for a long time (although, as others have pointed out, this is also a result of his own behavior in rejecting the prosecution's plea bargain.) But some jail time and deportation are entirely justified in this case. You don't get to commit serious crimes in this country as a foreign citizen and stick around. Hard to argue with that logic, either.
19
As a gay rights supporter, I am largely indifferent to the crimes that Ravi committed. As a fierce believer in the right to privacy, I am horrified. The sociopathic violation of Tyler Clementi's right to privacy staggers me. I realize this probably happens more than we would think, but the idea of anyone's most intimate and private moments being broadcast to their peer group without their knowledge makes my blood run cold. Hell, maybe this is a First-World problem, but it really freaks me out -and the coldness and calculation that went into that violation is just breathtaking. Ravi needed to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, but not for a lot of the stuff he was actually prosecuted for.
20
Hypo, Dan: David detonates a bomb in Victor and Valerie's house. Victor and Valerie sustain identical injuries, but ultimately, Valerie survives and Victor does not. Do we want to say that David can't be charged with murder for Victor's death, because Valerie's survival clearly shows that it was some odd quirk of Victor's anatomy that he died?
Clearly not. Your argument in the linked post is stupid. The reason the tapers can't be charged with criminal homicide is much more formal: Tyler ended his own life. People can't be convicted of criminal homicide for convincing or goading someone into ending their own life; our laws just don't apportion responsibility for the specific crimes of criminal homicide in that way.
Even though they can't be convicted of criminal homicide, they probably did commit criminal acts just by recording him without his authorization. All this hate crimes stuff... well, I'd need to read the statutes, but I'm pretty skeptical of offenses or sentencing enhancements based on bad motives or thoughts associated with the crime.
Clearly not. Your argument in the linked post is stupid. The reason the tapers can't be charged with criminal homicide is much more formal: Tyler ended his own life. People can't be convicted of criminal homicide for convincing or goading someone into ending their own life; our laws just don't apportion responsibility for the specific crimes of criminal homicide in that way.
Even though they can't be convicted of criminal homicide, they probably did commit criminal acts just by recording him without his authorization. All this hate crimes stuff... well, I'd need to read the statutes, but I'm pretty skeptical of offenses or sentencing enhancements based on bad motives or thoughts associated with the crime.
21
Justice was served here. The jury looked at all of the charges, found him guilty on some, not guilty on more, after deliberating for 12 hours. The evidence was substantial and supported the guilty verdicts on the specific counts.
Ravi will probably get suspended sentences and be deported. The deportation is unfortunate and harsh, but that is our rule.
The sentences are in line with the public interests served by these laws. This is a nationally known case, and the result will have a chilling effect on similar invasions of privacy, which is a good result.
The jury properly decided the case before it on the law that applied. I have nothing but respect for Dan, but he, and many of the comenters, want the jury to have tried other cases that were not before them, or to weigh this conduct against other conduct they feel is worse but wasn't punished. That was not the court's job or the jury's job.
Ravi will probably get suspended sentences and be deported. The deportation is unfortunate and harsh, but that is our rule.
The sentences are in line with the public interests served by these laws. This is a nationally known case, and the result will have a chilling effect on similar invasions of privacy, which is a good result.
The jury properly decided the case before it on the law that applied. I have nothing but respect for Dan, but he, and many of the comenters, want the jury to have tried other cases that were not before them, or to weigh this conduct against other conduct they feel is worse but wasn't punished. That was not the court's job or the jury's job.
22
"the state prosecute some stupid teenager for a stupid teenage prank,"
Filing this under "Prank" is exactly what bullies have done forever.
Filing this under "Prank" is exactly what bullies have done forever.
23
Dan, I'm concerned that by pointing to your earlier post, you are pointing the finger of blame in part at Tyler's parents, and I don't see what is to be gained from that.
What if you had died, of whatever cause, very shortly after coming out to your mom? You have said (I can't come up with the exact quote right now) that she was initially appalled, concerned for your soul, etc., etc., but after talking with Father Tom she came around fast and she came out fighting on your side. If you had met your end within that interval, though, she would have been tortured with the thought that she had never had the chance within your knowledge to come to grips and be your paladin, whatever she might be able to accomplish in subsequent days.
Tyler's parents are pretty much in that situation and seem to be currently working on preventing other deaths like Tyler's. Can't you cut them a little slack? Your "Not Forgotten" posts always make me tear up because, though I know my mom wanted me to be happy, death claimed her without warning before she could stop saying hurtful things about marriage equality. Please give it some thought as that anniversary comes around again.
What if you had died, of whatever cause, very shortly after coming out to your mom? You have said (I can't come up with the exact quote right now) that she was initially appalled, concerned for your soul, etc., etc., but after talking with Father Tom she came around fast and she came out fighting on your side. If you had met your end within that interval, though, she would have been tortured with the thought that she had never had the chance within your knowledge to come to grips and be your paladin, whatever she might be able to accomplish in subsequent days.
Tyler's parents are pretty much in that situation and seem to be currently working on preventing other deaths like Tyler's. Can't you cut them a little slack? Your "Not Forgotten" posts always make me tear up because, though I know my mom wanted me to be happy, death claimed her without warning before she could stop saying hurtful things about marriage equality. Please give it some thought as that anniversary comes around again.
24
Be careful now, if u upset any weepy poofs or trannies and they jump off a bridge the next day, it's ten years in the slammer for you.
25
Let me get this straight, if his roommate had been hetero and had been peeped on by Ravi, and then went and jumped off a bridge, would Ravi have ever been charged for his 'thoughts'?
26
I was going to recommend the New Yorker article, but @11 beat me to it. Still, please check it out if you haven't already.
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/…
Based on the article, it seems clear to me that Ravi violated Tyler's privacy as well as M.B.'s. It seems likely he attempted to tamper with evidence (notably, his Twitter feed), but the witness intimidation charge seems weak. It seems more than likely that he tried to get others to watch -- though he claims he decided not to and turned off his cam, Tyler's communications with his friends suggests that Tyler was the one who did so. It does not seem likely that Ravi was attempting to intimidate or harass Tyler, as it doesn't appear that he was (until later) aware that Tyler knew what was going on. Nor does it seem that likely he was motivated by outright homophobia, his initial "ick" feelings notwithstanding.
His contempt of people he perceived to be poor is not, unfortunately, an indictable offense.
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/…
Based on the article, it seems clear to me that Ravi violated Tyler's privacy as well as M.B.'s. It seems likely he attempted to tamper with evidence (notably, his Twitter feed), but the witness intimidation charge seems weak. It seems more than likely that he tried to get others to watch -- though he claims he decided not to and turned off his cam, Tyler's communications with his friends suggests that Tyler was the one who did so. It does not seem likely that Ravi was attempting to intimidate or harass Tyler, as it doesn't appear that he was (until later) aware that Tyler knew what was going on. Nor does it seem that likely he was motivated by outright homophobia, his initial "ick" feelings notwithstanding.
His contempt of people he perceived to be poor is not, unfortunately, an indictable offense.
27
@17 - that quote, standing on its own, does seem to be a sincere mea culpa, but in the full context of the New Yorker article, I believe he comes off a bit less believably sincere: the text you quoted came right after other texts of a more slimy-backpeddling character, which appeared five minutes after Clementi posted that he was jumping off a bridge.
I'm in camp "this is awfully harsh punishment for being a clueless, asshole teenager" but I got a pretty negative view of Ravi as a person from that article. The text you quoted reeks of Eddie Haskell to me.
I'm in camp "this is awfully harsh punishment for being a clueless, asshole teenager" but I got a pretty negative view of Ravi as a person from that article. The text you quoted reeks of Eddie Haskell to me.
28
@26 From the trial:
At one point Ravi tried to talk to Wei but she said she couldn't talk then because she was talking to the police. He continued to text her (what are you telling them, what are they telling you, this is what i told them) while the police were still there questioning her.
Ravi was playing Utimate and wasn't even in the dorm when network records show that his computer's activity blacks out and comes back on after a couple of hours.
At one point Ravi tried to talk to Wei but she said she couldn't talk then because she was talking to the police. He continued to text her (what are you telling them, what are they telling you, this is what i told them) while the police were still there questioning her.
Ravi was playing Utimate and wasn't even in the dorm when network records show that his computer's activity blacks out and comes back on after a couple of hours.
29
@11: Thank you for posting very well what I was going to write. Anyone who believes these students should have faced criminal charges should take the time to read Ian Parker's excellent New Yorker article. I learned two things I didn't know before: (1) Tyler was not in the closet; (2) No images were saved, let alone posted on the internet.
Shitty teenage prank? Absolutely. Criminal behavior warranting prison time? Absolutely not.
Shitty teenage prank? Absolutely. Criminal behavior warranting prison time? Absolutely not.
30
I did like what @11 wrote, esp the last paragraph. Funny how, after reading @29, we read the same New Yorker article and came to different conclusions. I definitely think it was criminal behavior warranting prison time. I would think that if they simply caught Tyler picking his nose. It was violating his privacy. That's just wrong, period. And w/the internet and texting this kind of thing is getting worse, and someone has to put their foot down.
I remember (as an adult) complaining about the bullying I saw happening while I was at school. A friend said "Oh, you take it too seriously." Some years after we discussed a story about a teen who'd killed themselves after being bullied (this was well before the recent spate of deaths), and I reminded her of our previous conversation. "See what happens when you don't take these things seriously enough?"
Yes, jail time is deserved.
I do think it odd though that he held out for a trial, then didn't testify on his own behalf. Maybe that goes back to what @11 suggested in the last paragraph of his post, re Ravi's pride.
I remember (as an adult) complaining about the bullying I saw happening while I was at school. A friend said "Oh, you take it too seriously." Some years after we discussed a story about a teen who'd killed themselves after being bullied (this was well before the recent spate of deaths), and I reminded her of our previous conversation. "See what happens when you don't take these things seriously enough?"
Yes, jail time is deserved.
I do think it odd though that he held out for a trial, then didn't testify on his own behalf. Maybe that goes back to what @11 suggested in the last paragraph of his post, re Ravi's pride.
31
If the plea deal he was offered was as @1 suggested, he, or his lawyer, or his family, were totally crazy in rejecting it. If he was anything like a reasonable person he would have recognized that he had done something very wrong, and graciously accepting some punishment for that was a reasonable and moral thing to do. Even if has no moral sensibility in that way, what was he thinking from a pragmatic point of view? After Wei flipped, did he really think the jury was going to let him walk? And if they convicted him of even one of the many charges, did he really think he would face a sentence as light as 600 hours of community service? Shit that's just 15 weeks. Not even four months. Four months when every night he gets to go home and sleep in his own bed, and hang out with his friends on weekends. The community service might even have been interesting and redemptive, and his taking his lumps would have meant that at least some people would welcome him back into normal society. What kind of legal advice did he get? Maybe his lawyer was hoping to be the big hero and become famous with a high profile acquital? That must be awfully close to legal malpractice.
33
I looked up the church that Clementi's family went to (from the New Yorker article) and surprise surprise, the head pastor of the evangelical Megachurch it's affiliated with is on record saying shitty things about homosexuals, like they need to stay celibate for their entire lifetimes blah blah blah.
I have to say, this info feeds into my theory that while Ravi's assholery was the last straw for Clementi, he had been absorbing shitty anti-gay bullying for his entire life at some combo of school/church/home and was not receiving the psychiatric care he needed. And when he killed himself it was easier for his family to cast Ravi as the sole villain and legally scapegoat him than to admit that they'd fucked up and bear some of blame.
I have to say, this info feeds into my theory that while Ravi's assholery was the last straw for Clementi, he had been absorbing shitty anti-gay bullying for his entire life at some combo of school/church/home and was not receiving the psychiatric care he needed. And when he killed himself it was easier for his family to cast Ravi as the sole villain and legally scapegoat him than to admit that they'd fucked up and bear some of blame.
34
@17
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/17/nyregi…
Most of Ravi's character witnesses were his father's business associates.
Mr. Ravi’s lawyer pointed to apologetic texts that Mr. Ravi sent Mr. Clementi, in which he said he had no problem with homosexuality and even had a close friend who was gay. (At almost the exact moment he sent the apology, Mr. Clementi, 18, committed suicide after posting on Facebook, “jumping off the gw bridge sorry”).
Mr. Leverett, a student and Twitter user himself, was unmoved. “I can’t speak for everyone on the jury, but me, personally, I believe it was something where he realized what he did was wrong, and it was just too late to amend for what he did.”
Of the apology, Ms. Audet said: “My first impression was to believe what he said. Then, as we started reading stuff, we found things in there that I interpreted more as covering.
“The friend he claimed was a good friend in high school, that person was never presented as a defense witness. If that person had come forward and said, ‘Hey, we’ve been good friends, and he knows I’m gay and he doesn’t have a problem with it,’ that might have swayed me in the other direction.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/17/nyregi…
Most of Ravi's character witnesses were his father's business associates.
35
Just because bullying was probably done by others who haven't
been punished (to our knowledge) in the past, that does not mitigate these people's actions.
been punished (to our knowledge) in the past, that does not mitigate these people's actions.
37
bottom line: there would have been no trial without Clementi's suicide. So even though Ravi wasn't officially on trial for his death, in the court of public opinion and in that jury room, he really was. Invasion of privacy? Again, if Clementi hadn't offed himself, invasion of privacy wouldn't have gone to trial either. Let's get real--this is all about assigning blame and Ravi's an easy target: geeky skinny Asian kid with all the trappings of privilege. so undeserving right? so easy to hate right? so unoriginal.
38
@34 Most of Ravi's friends had already been called over by the prosecution. There was no point for the defense to call them again. The defense called who ever the prosecution did not call, his father's friends.
And none of them, not even one, called Ravi as homophobic.
And regarding no gay friend coming forward:
"Picone imagined that, had he and Ravi become roommates, they might have become friends. But he acknowledged that to speak so generously of Ravi—to unsettle the portrait of him as the perpetrator of hate crimes—was unwelcome at Rutgers. “I wish the gay community wasn’t so angry—so angry. I’m all about forgive but don’t forget.” He added, “Dharun didn’t want Tyler to die.” Rather, he said, Ravi had probably wanted people to be amused by his actions—to “think of him as this bro.”
Read more http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/…"
And none of them, not even one, called Ravi as homophobic.
And regarding no gay friend coming forward:
"Picone imagined that, had he and Ravi become roommates, they might have become friends. But he acknowledged that to speak so generously of Ravi—to unsettle the portrait of him as the perpetrator of hate crimes—was unwelcome at Rutgers. “I wish the gay community wasn’t so angry—so angry. I’m all about forgive but don’t forget.” He added, “Dharun didn’t want Tyler to die.” Rather, he said, Ravi had probably wanted people to be amused by his actions—to “think of him as this bro.”
Read more http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/…"
Advertisement
Most Commented on Slog
-
All You Motherfuckers Complaining That aPodments Are Too Small at 200 Square Feet by Dominic Holden
-
SL Letter of the Day: Did You Think I Was Going To Tell You Not To Come Out? (PLUS: Help Free Kate!) by Dan Savage
-
It's Spring! Who's Ready for Street Harassment? by Cienna Madrid
-
America's Epidemic of Toddler-on-Toddler Gun Violence Continues by Goldy
-
Dutch Artist Turns Dead Cat into Remote-Controlled Helicopter by Bethany Jean Clement
-
Slog Overnight by Dan Savage
-
Saint Genet Re-Creates "Shoot" by Brendan Kiley
-
New Gun Enthusiast... by Dan Savage
-
Slog Bible Study: Revelation 1:9 by Goldy
-
The City of Portland, Oregon Should Run for Washington Lieutenant Governor by Goldy
Stranger Personals
The Stranger
RSSSeattle Art & Performance Quarterly
A complete guide to Seattle's current art, film, dance, and theater season.
Facebook
Twitter
Comments (38) RSS