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Monday, March 12, 2012

Surprise: Neighborhood Activists Complain About Later Bar Hours In Seattle (I.E. Put Cart Before Horse, Light Cart on Fire)

Posted by on Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 3:32 PM

Should individual cities in Washington be able to petition the state's Liquor Control Board for later bar hours, if they so choose?

That was the question up for discussion at this morning's Liquor Control Board public hearing, led by three board members of the LCB at City Hall. But it wasn't what the majority of neighborhood activists—who are against the Seattle proposal, introduced last fall to let cities petition the LCB for bar service hours past 2:00 a.m.—wanted to talk about.

And so they didn't.

Instead, neighborhood activists spent two hours criticizing later bar hours in Seattle—even though such a proposal doesn't currently exist in any form (which is a little like putting the cart before the horse and lighting it on fire. And then shooting the horse in the head just to be a dick). Residents complained that Seattle bars are already too noisy and later bar hours would only prolong their nighttime suffering. Some worried that there aren't enough cops to currently deal with the 2:00 a.m. pushout (while conveniently ignoring that SPD has endorsed this plan as a way to help manage public safety), that more youths would be drinking in Seattle bars, and that DUIs would skyrocket. Still others complained that they hadn't had enough time to complain about the process yet.

"There’s no plan, no outreach to the community," testified Mariana Quarnstrom before the crowd of 80 people, who seemed evenly split between nightlife industry people and early-to-bed neighborhood activists. (For the record, I disagree.)

"There's been no community input that I'm aware of," echoed Stephanie Tschida, a member of the East Precinct Advisory Council who, despite her assertion, has herself attended at least one public safety meeting on the topic (and who penned this "anonymous" letter against the proposal). "Nightclubs can already stay open as late as they want, why does it have to revolve around alcohol? Fund good music, but not in areas where people live* and will keep them awake all night."

Gary Hothi makes a good point.
  • The Stranger
  • Gary Hothi makes a good point.
At best, the testimony was anecdotal. At worst, it was blanket fear-mongering, which prompted LCB board member Chris Marr to gently point out that we're not talking about a Seattle proposal, here, "We’re considering the broader rules in which to engage these requests," i.e., stay on topic or STFU. Obviously, if the LCB approved a petition to consider later bar hours, every city with a proposal would first go through a local vetting process, which would give neighborhood activists a platform to wring their hands and caw about noise.


The most constructive criticism came from Gary Hothi, a UW student working on his Masters in social work. Hothi lives in Federal Way but often drives friends to Seattle nightclubs to drink and party. Hothi worried that extending drinking hours would encourage residents of Federal Way, Bellevue, and other nearby cities to stay out later and drink more before commuting home.

"You’re talking about letting people who awake at 5:00 a.m., work, and then drink until 6:00 a.m., on our highways," he said. "More inebriation, coupled with sleep deprivation, doesn’t equate to community safety."

*i.e., sober tea parties in the desert. That'll totally go over well.

It's a good point—one that I raised when the Mayor announced the petition last July. Getting other state law enforcement agencies, like the state highway patrol, to endorse this petition is integral to its success, as these agencies will have to shoulder some of the burdens associated with out-of-town drinkers. I've asked the mayor's office repeatedly if they've secured that support; I'll update when they respond.

That said, neither Hothi nor anyone else produced data that linked later bar hours to an increase in DUIs. And as LCB board member Marr pointed out, "There are 16 or so municipalities that have [allowed for later bar hours], for quite a few years," he said. "It seems to me that we should be able to move to some empirical basis rather than anecdotal basis on gauging the risks and impacts [of this proposal]."

For it's part, the city has data, along with the support of bar owners, restaurant owners, music venues, nightlife activists, and SPD. James Keblas, director of the city's office of Film and Music, explained that city officials have considered 49 studies analyzing how later bar hours have been implemented elsewhere, and to what effects. "In some cases, the situation got worse. In some cases, it got better," Keblas said. "This alone is not a silver-bullet solution [but] we learned that when you put extended hours in a comprehensive plan… public safety got better."

Which is why Seattle's petition for a rule to allow later bar hours is part of a broader, eight-point Nightlife Safety Initiative introduced by Mayor Mike McGinn in July of 2010. And by the city's estimation, the initiative is working. Last October, the city launched its new Taxi Stand network and this June the city will release a study on the effectiveness of its noise ordinance.

But taxi stands and noise ordinances can't address the 135 percent spike in violence that the city experiences between 2:00 and 3:00 a.m., as all the city's bars shut down in unison and thousands of drunk people scramble to get taxis or otherwise find a way home.

That said, city officials estimate that if 100 businesses were allowed to extend their liquor service hours, that spike would decrease substantially while generating "twenty-six million dollars of economic activity, including two million to the state through B & O sales tax," Keblas estimates. "That means two new jobs per establishment… and it’s our assumption that reducing that spike decreases demand on public safety."

Dozens of nightlife advocates spoke out in favor of the proposal and the positive affect that staggered bar hours would have on their ability to monitor drinkers instead of kicking them all out at once. Dave Meinert, owner of the 5-Point Cafe and Big Mario's, seemed to sum up everyone's sentiment. "I encourage you to not listen to fear-mongering, listen to data," Meinert said. "Good government is run by data, not fear. The 2:00 a.m. closing time is a problem and it needs to be addressed. The opponents have no solution to address this problem. The thing that would be wrong here, would be to promote the status quo."

Today's meeting is only the first of several public hearings to help determine whether Washington cities should have the right to petition the state's Liquor Control Board for later bar hours. Public hearings are also scheduled for Vancouver, the Tri Cities, and Spokane. The LCB is slated to make it's decision on May 7. If the change were enacted, cities would have to present a detailed plan for what specific nightlife neighborhoods bar hours could be rolled back—and to when. The LCB would then approve or reject the proposal.

 

Comments (37) RSS

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1
Try living in a neighborhood where drunks are wandering up and down the street outside your window screaming until 2:30 in the morning before you write crap like "...which would give neighborhood activists a platform to wring their hands and caw about noise." I don't think it's too hard to understand that if the situation is bad right now with bars closing at 2:00 A.M., allowing other bars to stay open and unloose drunk, loud customers all night long might exacerbate the problem.
Posted by maddogm13 on March 12, 2012 at 3:53 PM
Cienna Madrid 2
@1, I live in Belltown. I don't think it's too hard to understand this concept: If you don't like nightlife, don't live in the middle of a city.
Posted by Cienna Madrid on March 12, 2012 at 4:05 PM
Dougsf 3
@1 What allowing bars to stay open later will eliminate the requirement of dumping entire bars-worth of inebriated customers outside onto your street all at once. Idiots will never cease to exist, but a later last call will allow for a more staggered departure, reducing some of the most obnoxious aspects associated with 2am.
Posted by Dougsf on March 12, 2012 at 4:14 PM
4
@1 Know what's in your area before you move there. Living close to bars might get loud. Doesn't take a genius to figure that out.
Posted by Chester Copperpot on March 12, 2012 at 4:17 PM
5
Staggering bar closings earlier than 2am would also address the problem of dumping all the drunk people out of the bar at the same time, wouldn't it?

And, @2, there are plenty of neighborhoods where people spill out of the bars and then walk, loudly screaming for some reason, 3 or 4 blocks through residential streets to their where their cars are parked (Fremont, for example).
Posted by xopherg on March 12, 2012 at 4:17 PM
Kinison 6
I like how some people are pushing for extended hours saying "You know how alot people are pushed out into the streets at 1:45am? Well this sort of thing wouldn't happen if we had hours extended to 3 or 4am". Just wild assumptions.
Posted by Kinison http://www.holgatehawks.com on March 12, 2012 at 4:24 PM
Eric Arrr 7
@1,

I live at the corner of 12th Ave & E. Pike. If I couldn't stand the heat, I'd move out of the kitchen.
Posted by Eric Arrr on March 12, 2012 at 4:28 PM
Will in Seattle 8
All I know is people peeing in the streets near the bars.

I'm hoping it's not young women, but still ...

@5 just park SOUTH OF THE BARS, it's free there - we got rid of free parking north of the main drag (N 36th) in Fremont a while ago, after 8 pm it's residents only - ever since that RPZ went in the drunk problem decreased quite a bit.
Posted by Will in Seattle http://www.facebook.com/WillSeattle on March 12, 2012 at 4:30 PM
evolume 9
You live in a fucking city. Cities are fucking loud.
Posted by evolume http://twitter.com/evolume on March 12, 2012 at 4:31 PM
Dougsf 10
@5 - What's being "staggered" by a, say, 4am last call is that patrons leave when they're ready to leave, rather than being encouraged to pound their drinks before they're kicked out en masse.

If you'd like to see what a 11 or 12am closing time might entail, the English do ASBO better than just about anyone.
Posted by Dougsf on March 12, 2012 at 4:34 PM
Fifty-Two-Eighty 11
I've been in a lot of bars at closing time in my life. To be honest, there was never a single time that I really needed one more drink at that point. Just sayin'.
Posted by Fifty-Two-Eighty http://www.nra.org on March 12, 2012 at 4:39 PM
meanie 12
I love when people who live in areas like belltown complain about drunk yelling a-holes.

Clearly you haven't lived in a nice quiet bedroom community ( ballard, wsea, magnolia ) in the summer( when your windows are open ) when your neighbor has a new baby. or a pitbull that barks, or those metal things with wheels that speed down your block at 2am. ( DAMN TEENAGERS GET OFF MY LAWN )

Please enlighten to these magical places where no noise exists, that are populated with people.

also as a personal attack, who thinks, MAN BELLTOWN WHAT A NICE QUIET PLACE TO LIVE! and then moves there?
Posted by meanie http://www.spicealley.net on March 12, 2012 at 4:40 PM
13
@6 Have you been to a city with extended bar hours before? After a certain amount of time most people want to go home. Not everyone will drink until 4am just because they can.
Posted by Conrad McMasters on March 12, 2012 at 4:43 PM
14
Bars can already stay open 24 hours, they just have a 4 hour window where they can't serve alcohol. If they are truly so interested in reducing the 2AM pushout problem they simply have to stop pushing their customers out at 2. In LA they still stop serving at 2 but they keep people inside with entertainment which also allows them to sober up before they drive home.

The new tax revenue is also BS. The state taxes liquor so the city is not allowed to. PERIOD. The only 'new' revenue will be from state liquor taxes which are shared with the city and county at a pretty low rate.

SPD supported this? Well, kinda. When now Chief Diaz was hoping to become Chief the Mayor suggested supporting this was in his best interest. If you go back and look, only at Mayor based events has Diaz made any supportive statements and NEVER, after a crime problem, has he said anything along the lines of extended hours would have reduced or prevented the problem.

I'm pro nightlife but the disingenuous prattle being used to promote this move makes me sick and makes me want to fight the little group of bar owners whose political contributions have made this an issue.
Posted by Mave Deinert on March 12, 2012 at 4:46 PM
15
Tschida has a very strong point. What kind of percentage of folks unleashed at 2am constitute Seattle residents? What is the percentage of perps from out of town that contribute to the spike of crime at the dump off time? There is a rush hour out of Seattle at 2am, all directions. If we are trying to change current laws just to move the problem from the SPD to the state patrol. Big problem.
Many of the gay bashing violent assaults have been commited by non Seattlites. We flock them in, douse them with booze, them expect that a staggard quit time will decrease violence?
Posted by pussnboots on March 12, 2012 at 4:47 PM
16
@8 it is only RPZ parking on the east side of the street.

@10 I've lived in a city with 4am closing times and it never seemed like people left much earlier than 4am.
Posted by xopherg on March 12, 2012 at 4:53 PM
17
Wow, I expected someone to come in here and moan about THE DRUNKS!!! but I didn't think it would be the first post
Posted by Reader01 on March 12, 2012 at 5:42 PM
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn 18
Why is Cienna Madrid so cunty to everybody who doesn't relish living in shithole?
Posted by Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn http://youtu.be/zu-akdyxpUc on March 12, 2012 at 5:54 PM
Fnarf 19
Living in a city means you have to pay MORE attention to how your behavior affects others, not less. The problem isn't bars per se; it's loud, obnoxious assholes, who are almost without exception young people. Young people from the suburbs, or Idaho, or other places where no one cares if you yell in the street of blow off your guns at 4:00 AM. In a city, it's different; you have close neighbors, and you are expected to maintain civility -- it's in the goddamn WORD, city/civic/civility/civilization.

"Cities are loud" is the retort of the recent arrival from nowhereland, who has no real ties to the community and so doesn't know what a dickhead they sound like.

What would be awesome is if the bars all closed at 11:00. Barring that dream world, I'm OK with later closing, but only if public drunkenness and DWI laws are actually enforced. There are a hundred DWI drivers streaming out of Belltown and Fremont every night of the week; it would be nice to seem them penalized. Street pee-ers and pukers, too.
Posted by Fnarf http://www.facebook.com/fnarf on March 12, 2012 at 6:10 PM
20
Well put, Fnarf@19. I would also add that the "if you don't like the noise, don't live in the central city!" crowd seems to believe that the primary purpose of the central city is as a location for loud bars and clubs. According to them, then, no one with children---or no one who is gainfully employed during the day--- should expect to live there. This is a profoundly anti-urban attitude, but then again not surprising since all of these self-styled hard-bitten urbanites have only their adolescent fantasies of what city life should be like.


Leaving aside the whole drunk driving issue, few people would care about extending liquor service hours if the bar owners and the drunken morons they work so hard to attract had any respect for people living nearby.
Posted by A-Chan on March 12, 2012 at 6:35 PM
Hernandez 21
There are two separate issues people are commenting on here:
1. Current closing times dumping thousands of thoroughly drunk people on to the streets at 2:00 AM.
2. Said thoroughly drunk people behaving like a public nuisance on streets where people live.

If staggered closing times will mitigate the problems caused by the former, then let's go for it. But it's not going to affect the latter either way.

So you can see why responding to people's concerns about drunk disorderly conduct going on later into the night with "move out of the city, jerkwad" is stupid. No one has an inherent right to cover Fremont with piss and puke every Friday and Saturday night. "Nightlife" can be more than just a celebration of alcohol abuse and douchebaggery.

Posted by Hernandez http://hernandezlist.blogspot.com on March 12, 2012 at 6:39 PM
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn 22
@19

...And for those not familiar with the subtext, Cienna Madrid is a young person recently arrived in the Big City from (you guessed it) Idaho.
Posted by Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn http://youtu.be/zu-akdyxpUc on March 12, 2012 at 6:44 PM
Eastpike 23
It's all about money. it's also kind of a fallacious stance to tell concerned neighbors that their argument is invalid because "there is no proposal"... Bullshit. If Dave can wax about how 2am doesn't work ($$$) then the opponents can chime in too. Hint: they aren't going to STFU.
Posted by Eastpike on March 12, 2012 at 8:19 PM
24
Yay, Fnarf! Living in a big city does not mean that you automatically sign up to ignore big city problems. Cienna doesn't get that. That said, I'm neutral on the bar closing hours. I think that there are legitimate benefits and legitimate concerns. I do wish it were possible to discuss these complicated urban density issues without trying to turn your opponents into mouth foaming idiots. That's cheap. And it's a disservice.
Posted by M. Wells on March 12, 2012 at 9:01 PM
25
squares.
Posted by Tommy Smith on March 12, 2012 at 10:14 PM
26
It's sort of like this - the fear mongering anti fun folks fought against changing the Teen Dance Ordinance. It took some time, and we had to throw out a mayor, a city attorney and several city council members, but we did away with that tired law. The TDO is history, and all is well, regardless of all the fears these same people tried to argue about.

Then we made it legal to have all ages at concerts where liquor was served. Same fear mongers ranting about how kids were going to have more access to alcohol and all mayhem would ensue. Again, we won, and everything is ok. Tons of all ages shows with liquor served and no problems.

Now it makes sense to extend service hours at well behaved bars and venues. Again, the fear mongering, hysterical minority crowd shows up. They bring whoever they can to testify against this. Today the "anti" crowd called liquor unamerican and anti-christian. They talked about drinking in high schools. They made all sorts of nonsensical ramblings. One of them said something about people from Auburn coming to Seattle and pissing and shitting, and how that will end up in Puget Sound. In the end, ignoring all the nonsense, we're left with a clear goal backed by every elected and law enforcement official in the city, with no good reason to not try a pilot program of extended hours.

The opposition to this won't last. Just like they didn't last with their opposition to the TDO or all ages shows at clubs serving alcohol. Seattle is becoming a progressive, 24 hour city with fresh ideas and led by youth culture. The old foggies are going to have to move aside now, it's time to move forward.
Posted by Meinert on March 12, 2012 at 11:01 PM
27
And as LCB board member Marr pointed out, "There are 16 or so municipalities that have [allowed for later bar hours], for quite a few years," he said. "It seems to me that we should be able to move to some empirical basis rather than anecdotal basis on gauging the risks and impacts [of this proposal]."


Congratulations to everybody commenting here for your anecdote-full, data-free contributions!
Posted by madcap on March 12, 2012 at 11:40 PM
28
The point is, Meinert, bar owners and their obnoxious patrons have shown nothing but contempt for their neighbors. You talk about "well behaved bars and venues" yet the noise ordinance you have argued for is completely insufficient to meet the needs of residents. You act as if you are in the vanguard of civilization, but in reality you just want to make an extra buck, neighbors be damned.

And tell me, how come other US cities such as Chicago and New York are moving towards more restrictive licensing?
Posted by A-Chan on March 12, 2012 at 11:53 PM
29
Damn...I'm with Fnarf @19. And, it's not just Belltown and Fremont anymore. Have you seen the concentration of white pleather jackets and urban camo in front of the Balmar lately? It starts on Wednesday nights these days.

I'm all for keeping the bars open late; but I'd like a Herman Cain-style electric fence around the city to keep the suburban brigandage to a minimum. I walk to where I drink, and I stagger home.
Posted by Mr. Happy Sunshine on March 13, 2012 at 8:47 AM
30
This isn't about getting drunk all night, nor about drinking 24/7.

The impetus for this change is the 135% spike in crime that occurs between 1:30 am and 2am. Seattle doesn't have the resources to handle this. So there must be a better way.

Here's an idea of how it could happen:

Issue a new permit that allows bars to close when they are done with sales, when they want. This will result in 'staggered' closing times, some bars closing at 1am, some at 2, 3, 4, etc. Possibly limit this to just the higher tiered mixed use commercial/ residential neighborhoods like Belltown, parts of Ballard and Fremont, Udistrict, Capitol Hill and Georgetown. Maybe parts of West Seattle.

Charge a high, but reasonable price for the new permit. Dedicate that money to enforcement.

Give the permit to only businesses that have no liquor violations in the past year.

Make the license relatively easy to take away, and allow this to be done by the city as well as the state. Put tough conditions on getting and keeping it.

In addition to the new license, and fees:

- create a tough new noise ordinance that can shut a business down if violated

- create a new law allowing cops to cite loud, obnoxious folks between 10pm and 7am.

- develop a late night transportation plan, including allowing people to pay for morning parking the night before, so they can leave their cars and not worry about the early morning ticket. Better access to cabs, and more info about public transit routes

- Require late night venues to have a specific security plan related to their late night operations

- Require training of club security by the SPD

- Require community meetings between license owners, cops and residents

The music scene, of which the nightlife industry is a major component of, pays $11 million in taxes per year to the City and County, in addition to permit fees. This plan will raise that, and at the same time decrease the pressure on, and thus the cost of, city resources now taken up at the current closing time.

This is the type of plan Seattle is already working on.
More...
Posted by Meinert on March 13, 2012 at 8:54 AM
31
PS - allowing bars to stay open later also recognizes the changing labor demographics in this city. More and more people are working off hour jobs. The standard 9-5 job is disappearing. We should be changing regulations to match this.

I own a 24 hour restaurant, with a bar that currently closes at 2am and reopens at 6am. Our 6am happy hour customers are people who have worked late shifts. Doctors and nurses from ER's who work 4 10 hour shifts get done and want a cocktail with their meal. All sorts of other jobs also end between 2am and 8am. There is no reason to deny these people who are contributing members of our city a place to go and socialize after work like everyone else can enjoy. There is no logical no data driven reason to deny them.

Let's recognize that we live in a very diverse city, and our laws need to catch up with it.
Posted by Meinert on March 13, 2012 at 8:54 AM
32
Hey Meinert: You post and post on these blogs yet you never address any of the substantive objections. Instead you prattle on and on with your meaningless platitudes and talking points. Oh yeah, you point out that some of the people testifying against extended liquor service hours are nuts, as if that makes everyone against this nuts too.
Posted by A-Chan on March 13, 2012 at 12:42 PM
33
For those advising city residents to know that cities are noisy - I think they do - but many also bought city residences with the understanding that stopping alcohol service at 2AM gives a reasonable expectation that things quiet down a bit after 2. I'm all in favor of nightlife - I have enjoyed plenty of nights out in Seattle.

By changing the rules to allow much later alcohol service, urban livability declines - people who don't mind staying up late on weekends but expect things to quiet down later can now look forward to all-night carousing.

We all have a vested interest in encouraging population density. Dismissing all the attempts to compromise on things like late-night noise as "cuntish" is a disservice to the broader goal of making Seattle livable.
Posted by CapHillNative on March 13, 2012 at 1:20 PM
34
@27 congratulations on illustrating your point about the need for data with a story!
Posted by xopherg on March 13, 2012 at 1:58 PM
Tizzle 35
Meinert, can you add later public transit hours to that list? I already can't take the light rail home if I stay somewhere til bar close.

Until recently, I had one of those second shift jobs. I couldn't even get to a bar until almost midnight - maybe I should be allowed to drink for 4 hours like day-shifters. I never run out of bars screaming, so I am not creating excessive noise no matter what the hour. I can (or could when I lived in First Hill) sleep through sirens, which are louder than any bar noise. I have one friend who is loud. I personally try to shut him up, with usual success. Is there some way to educate noisy fools while allowing responsible citizens the ability to live in a *real* city? (I think of Seattle as a 2-horse town)
Posted by Tizzle on March 13, 2012 at 2:09 PM
godtomsatan 36
>>>>>
I own a 24 hour restaurant, with a bar that currently closes at 2am and reopens at 6am. Our 6am happy hour customers are people who have worked late shifts. Doctors and nurses from ER's who work 4 10 hour shifts get done and want a cocktail with their meal. All sorts of other jobs also end between 2am and 8am. There is no reason to deny these people who are contributing members of our city a place to go and socialize after work like everyone else can enjoy. There is no logical no data driven reason to deny them.
>>>>>

How many doctors and nurses are eating at the 5-point at 6am vs. the number of those still coked-up from the night before and day drunks? Be honest about this and quit patronizing people with your sunshine and lollipops version of how things work at night time hours.

I'm not against the idea of bars staying open later hours, but I am against the steady stream of bullshit that comes out of the mouth of Meinart and the Nightlife folks who act like this isn't anything but more opportunity for a select group of business owners to make more money. There will be no staggered hours at your local bar. It will only be at THEIR bar.
Posted by godtomsatan on March 13, 2012 at 2:52 PM
37
"Nightlife" can be more than just a celebration of alcohol abuse and douchebaggery.

In theory, but where has this ever happened?
Posted by tiktok on March 13, 2012 at 7:08 PM

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