Slog
News & ArtsTuesday, February 28, 2012
Religion / LGBTQITSLFA The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints: Champions of LGBT Equality!
Posted by Dan Savage on Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 7:49 AM
In the morning mail...
I just thought I would add a comment with regards to the campaign to give deceased Mormons gay afterlives. As a practicing Mormon, I can understand how the idea of baptizing the dead seems strange. However, we do not, as you claim, believe that this baptism forcibly makes people members of our faith; rather, we believe that the deceased have the choice whether or not to accept such proxy baptisms. We believe that a physical body is necessary for baptism, and if such people (usually ancestors of church members) did not have the opportunity to choose to be baptized in their lifetimes, they can have the choice after they have died.
Also, as a lifetime member of the church, I can tell you that I have never heard any officially preached doctrine about whether being gay is a choice, and honestly despite what Prop. 8 and other such incidents suggest, such ideas are not at all central tenets of our faith—definitely not as central is they are to Rick Santorum's (excuse me). I fully support equal rights for people of all sexual orientations, and my faith does not discourage this. If anything, Mormonism has taught me to love all other human beings, regardless of any single aspect of their lifestyle or personality.
I just thought I would give a little perspective. Thank you for your time.
H.T.C.
Um... does Anne Frank—who has been proxy-baptized nine times—have Mormon descendants? That seems highly unlikely. You know, considering.
As for the "officially preached doctrine" of the Mormon church not discouraging equal rights for all regardless of sexual orientation (Prop 8—that trifle!—notwithstanding), I'm going to leave that one for the ex-Mormons, gay and straight, who haunt Slog. But it sure doesn't square with my impression of the officially preached doctrine of the Mormon church—or the with the psychological and spiritual abuse LGBT Mormons have been subjected to by their families and "faith leaders."
2
One of the central tenants of the LDS church is that heteronormative gender roles are divinely ordained. There is literally no place in such theology for anything but heterosexual partnerships.
At the very least, only those with a temple-ordained (heterosexual) marriage can achieve the Celestial Kingdom (aka the highest level of Mormon Heaven). Perhaps the gays are allowed in the Telestial Kingdom with the murderers and thieves, though?
At the very least, only those with a temple-ordained (heterosexual) marriage can achieve the Celestial Kingdom (aka the highest level of Mormon Heaven). Perhaps the gays are allowed in the Telestial Kingdom with the murderers and thieves, though?
3
Here's the crux for me. When you're dead, you're dead. There is no there there. Choices are made with brains. When you are dead, your brain is dead. So fuck you Mormons. Your religion is total bullshit.
4
During the aftermath of Prop 8, I joined a protest in front of the Bellevue LDS temple that a friend had organized. We were confronted by a middle aged woman who genuinely could not believe her church had funded or supported the campaign. She was visibly shaken. It seemed bizarre to me but I'm sure it reflected the breakdown of one member's cognitive dissonance.
5
Whether they think it "forcefully" makes the deceased a member of the faith or not, since they list a deceased person who has been posthumously baptized as a member of their faith, it's hard to take the "the person can reject it if they want" seriously.
This guy also need a dose of Dan's "Not Like That" rant. If he, as a Mormon, doesn't believe that his faith supports equal rights, he needs to be telling it to fellow Mormons who poor millions of dollars into discriminatory campaigns, not to us.
This guy also need a dose of Dan's "Not Like That" rant. If he, as a Mormon, doesn't believe that his faith supports equal rights, he needs to be telling it to fellow Mormons who poor millions of dollars into discriminatory campaigns, not to us.
6
@5 Argh! Let's try that again: "If he, as a Mormon, doesn't believe his faith supports denying gay people equal rights..."
7
And all deceased Mormons have the option to accept their gay conversion. (PS - They all accept it).
8
"However, we do not, as you claim, believe that this baptism forcibly makes people members of our faith; rather, we believe that the deceased have the choice whether or not to accept such proxy baptisms"
Then why don't they have the choice to make those decisions in death? Dead Mormons can handle that shit before they move on to create their own universes.
Then why don't they have the choice to make those decisions in death? Dead Mormons can handle that shit before they move on to create their own universes.
9
Wait a second…
" We believe that a physical body is necessary for baptism, and if such people (usually ancestors of church members) did not have the opportunity to choose to be baptized in their lifetimes, they can have the choice after they have died."
They have to have a body? Now they are grave robbing?
Or are they saying that a currently alive person stands in for the deceased and becomes them for the purposes of the baptism?
So God's willing to offer someone salvation regardless of what they believed when they were alive, but needs some yahoo the departed never actually met to get moistened first?
I think someone's head is being held underwater just a mite too long.
" We believe that a physical body is necessary for baptism, and if such people (usually ancestors of church members) did not have the opportunity to choose to be baptized in their lifetimes, they can have the choice after they have died."
They have to have a body? Now they are grave robbing?
Or are they saying that a currently alive person stands in for the deceased and becomes them for the purposes of the baptism?
So God's willing to offer someone salvation regardless of what they believed when they were alive, but needs some yahoo the departed never actually met to get moistened first?
I think someone's head is being held underwater just a mite too long.
10
So H.T.C., you're basically saying that people should be given after death baptisms, and the choice to become Mormon, because in life, they chose a wrong, and inferior religion. They obviously would have chosen to become a Mormon, if they had your superior knowledge of God, and the afterlife. It's not like anyone's forcing dead folks to become Mormon. The dead can still choose some false religion.
Gee, I can't understand why people would find that concept so offensive.
A good scene for the show "The Walking Dead" would be Mormon's trying to baptize the zombies.
Gee, I can't understand why people would find that concept so offensive.
A good scene for the show "The Walking Dead" would be Mormon's trying to baptize the zombies.
11
"I fully support equal rights for people of all sexual orientations, and my faith does not discourage this."
But your church actively opposes equality and Mormons have spent millions of dollars doing so.
"If anything, Mormonism has taught me to love all other human beings, regardless of any single aspect of their lifestyle or personality."
Love them, but contribute financially to ensure their continued non-equality.
But your church actively opposes equality and Mormons have spent millions of dollars doing so.
"If anything, Mormonism has taught me to love all other human beings, regardless of any single aspect of their lifestyle or personality."
Love them, but contribute financially to ensure their continued non-equality.
12
As a returned Mormon missionary, I disagree with the hogwash that homophobia isn't totally ingrained in Mormon church culture. Here is a list of some others who would disagree with that bullshit:
http://www.affirmation.org/suicides/
http://www.affirmation.org/suicides/
13
I am glad that at least some members of the LDS church support LGBT rights. I think it is discriminatory to put them all in the same basket (just like all Republicans are not our enemies). I think it is OK that Dan disagrees with the writer and pointed out some of the errors in their thinking. But it would have been nice to thank them for their individual support.
As to LDS dogma, I can't really understand it. But then much of mainline Protestant and Catholic dogma doesn't make any sense. People believe what they want to and it is pointless to dispute religious views. Their beliefs don't hurt me (and they don't hurt Anne Frank) so I don't care what they do.
As to LDS dogma, I can't really understand it. But then much of mainline Protestant and Catholic dogma doesn't make any sense. People believe what they want to and it is pointless to dispute religious views. Their beliefs don't hurt me (and they don't hurt Anne Frank) so I don't care what they do.
15
It is just like Iran. There are no gay Mormons. You are either gay or Mormon. It is certainly possible that regular folks are unaware of how homophobic the church is but anyone who is gay certainly does.
16
As a returned Mormon missionary as well, I would first point out the church's long history of mistreatment of gays and lesbians. From the use of electroshock therapy on students at BYU (http://www.affirmation.org/news/2011_043…) to the support of other kinds of quack "therapy" cures for gay people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evergreen_I…) the church has sought to treat gay members as an embarrassing problem to be fixed, no matter how hard or harmful the cure. As for the culture and teachings of the church, I was straight out told as an adolescent in the 1980s that gay sex was a sin "next to murder" in seriousness; far, far more sinful then heterosexual sex, an almost irredeemable violation. Teenagers who had straight sex might have to do some repentance and put off serving a mission for a while, but if you were caught having same gender sex, you could expect far harsher treatment. You were, literally, almost doomed. A sin next to murder. And you wonder why so many LDS gay kids off themselves. They have been taught that they already can't be redeemed. The LDS church has miles to go before it is a welcoming place for gays and lesbians. They have historical wrongs to right. But if their history, especially in regards to race, is any indication, the best we can hope for is that, when homophobia becomes politically and socially untenable, the Prophet will simply receive a revelation, the faithful will be ordered to stop bashing gays, and the whole enterprise will roll right on, erasing history, and its victims, from the collective Mormon memory.
17
@13"I am glad that at least some members of the LDS church support LGBT rights. I think it is discriminatory to put them all in the same basket (just like all Republicans are not our enemies)"
The LDS Church does not support LGBT rights. We're not talking about the Lay.
"As to LDS dogma, I can't really understand it. But then much of mainline Protestant and Catholic dogma doesn't make any sense"
There is very little "mainline Protestant dogma", because it is not an inherently authoritarian faith. It is certainly not analogous to compare all of Protestantism with top-downs like LDS and Catholicism.
The LDS Church does not support LGBT rights. We're not talking about the Lay.
"As to LDS dogma, I can't really understand it. But then much of mainline Protestant and Catholic dogma doesn't make any sense"
There is very little "mainline Protestant dogma", because it is not an inherently authoritarian faith. It is certainly not analogous to compare all of Protestantism with top-downs like LDS and Catholicism.
18
It's okay because we're just knocking on their door in death. You know, the *one* time when we ought to respect the "no soliciting" sign.
I'm sorry, but if they didn't want you to knock on their door in life, it's disrespectful (and creepy) to do it to them in death.
I'm sorry, but if they didn't want you to knock on their door in life, it's disrespectful (and creepy) to do it to them in death.
19
When I don't know jackShit about something I always rely on my "impressions", which I spread as widely as possible....
One should share their ignorance liberally, after all.
One should share their ignorance liberally, after all.
20
OK, so if the dead have a choice of accepting baptism, it all boils down to either all of them say yes, all of them say no, or none of them make any decision because they no longer exist. If the unbelievers die and find out the Mormons were right after all (a la South Park!), then of course all of them are going to say "yes, yes, thank you!" If, on the other hand, they die and find out the mormons were wrong, then they will go with the FU option. The third option, of course, is that they do not find anything out after death because there is no afterlife. Then they can not make any decision.
22
What kind of a shitty ass ineffectual God do they believe in if they think someones salvation might hinge on some studious asshole pouring through genealogy records and offering salvation posthumously?
23
@9 "They have to have a body? Now they are grave robbing?
Or are they saying that a currently alive person stands in for the deceased and becomes them for the purposes of the baptism?"
My boyfriend's childhood church used children (and I believe that's the usual way to do it). It's seen as a righteous thing to do: be the vessel for someone's ancestor, who is being "brought into the faith" posthumously. My boyfriend's brother, who was used in this fashion, still claims that the ghosts of some of the people they tried to baptize "fought back," and that the experience scarred him for life.
Barring whether or not there are ghosts, and whether or not they fought back, I can completely see how damaging that kind of experience would be for a child.
Or are they saying that a currently alive person stands in for the deceased and becomes them for the purposes of the baptism?"
My boyfriend's childhood church used children (and I believe that's the usual way to do it). It's seen as a righteous thing to do: be the vessel for someone's ancestor, who is being "brought into the faith" posthumously. My boyfriend's brother, who was used in this fashion, still claims that the ghosts of some of the people they tried to baptize "fought back," and that the experience scarred him for life.
Barring whether or not there are ghosts, and whether or not they fought back, I can completely see how damaging that kind of experience would be for a child.
24
16
How many LDS kids off themselves?
How many because of homosexuality?
How do those figures (you do have figures, don't you?) Compare to the general population?
(please factor in that all Western states have higher levels of suicide)
thankx!
How many LDS kids off themselves?
How many because of homosexuality?
How do those figures (you do have figures, don't you?) Compare to the general population?
(please factor in that all Western states have higher levels of suicide)
thankx!
25
A lot of religions have one thing in common: They're so big that a lot of it depends on where you take it. I know one of my friends who took Catholicism to a very dark place. I never did. That's probably why I'm still Catholic and she's not.
26
5
they do not list deceased persons who have been posthumously baptized as a member of their faith.
your ignorance is appalling even for slog.
they do not list deceased persons who have been posthumously baptized as a member of their faith.
your ignorance is appalling even for slog.
27
Danny,
it has already been established that it is "Latter-day Saints".
you illiterate sack of shit sorry ass excuse for an 'editorial director'...
it has already been established that it is "Latter-day Saints".
you illiterate sack of shit sorry ass excuse for an 'editorial director'...
28
btw Danny;
what is "the officially preached doctrine of the Mormon church" on homosexuality?
please share.
what is "the officially preached doctrine of the Mormon church" on homosexuality?
please share.
29
Read 'em and weep: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual… , http://www.thefoyer.org/viewtopic.php?t=… .
I had more to write, but you know, it's just plain not worth it to argue with someone like this. If they say "well, our holy book says X," there is no way to convince them of anything implying ¬X.
I had more to write, but you know, it's just plain not worth it to argue with someone like this. If they say "well, our holy book says X," there is no way to convince them of anything implying ¬X.
30
It is certainly not analogous to compare all of Protestantism with top-downs like LDS and Catholicism.I'm not sure you can convince me that there's anything more "top-down" than sola scriptura, though I grant you that putting a text, rather than an institution, at the top of the chain of command sounds less authoritarian on first listen. I think a few posts worth of debate with a Calvinist, for instance, would give you pause in assuming that Protestantism is more progressive.
31
@24 Since I made no claim to a particular rate of suicide amongst LDS youth, only that gay Mormons have committed suicide, it isn't incumbent upon me to prove that LDS youth commit suicide at a rate higher then, say, their Baptist neighbors. What is clear is that LDS kids have committed suicide and attempted suicide based on the abusive teachings and accompanying feelings of worthlessness taught to them by the church. I could care less if it's ten or ten thousand. When your doctrine kills young people, it's time to render account.
32
Religious conviction has been a sure sign of insanity ever since 1945.
I love watching moron religious people (hah, redundant) defend their particular branch of crazy.
I love watching moron religious people (hah, redundant) defend their particular branch of crazy.
33
Wait, wait. What?
You cannot pass off Prop 8 as some inconsequential triviality. The mormon church literally pumped tens of millions of dollars into a campaign to take away existing rights of gay people. Money that came from your tithing. The mormon church was the sole largest donor to the Prop 8 campaign. In addition to the cash, church members actively campaigned, phone-banked, pushed get-out-the-vote drives at their churches, etc., at the strong encouragement of the clergy. Mormons comprised more than 80% of the initial on-the-ground organizers for the campaign.
Please explain to me why the mormon church would go to these extreme lengths if they do not have an official anti-gay policy.
You may be a very nice, well meaning person, but I think you are deluding yourself.
You cannot pass off Prop 8 as some inconsequential triviality. The mormon church literally pumped tens of millions of dollars into a campaign to take away existing rights of gay people. Money that came from your tithing. The mormon church was the sole largest donor to the Prop 8 campaign. In addition to the cash, church members actively campaigned, phone-banked, pushed get-out-the-vote drives at their churches, etc., at the strong encouragement of the clergy. Mormons comprised more than 80% of the initial on-the-ground organizers for the campaign.
Please explain to me why the mormon church would go to these extreme lengths if they do not have an official anti-gay policy.
You may be a very nice, well meaning person, but I think you are deluding yourself.
34
33
how much money did THE mormon church pump into prop 8?
please cite sources.
(sorry. dingleberries you pluck from your ass don't count...)
how much money did THE mormon church pump into prop 8?
please cite sources.
(sorry. dingleberries you pluck from your ass don't count...)
35
"...if such people (usually ancestors of church members) did not have the opportunity to choose to be baptized in their lifetimes, they can have the choice after they have died."
Help me out here, Mormons. Can you posthumously baptize someone who died before 1820, you know, the year your "religion" was invented out of thin air?
Help me out here, Mormons. Can you posthumously baptize someone who died before 1820, you know, the year your "religion" was invented out of thin air?
36
Proxy baptisms are just as meaningless as in-person baptisms.
Chant your incantations, make your entreaties, mutter your prayers--all of it is utterly meaningless and inconsequential, unless someone slips, falls and bumps their head while getting in or out of the baptismal font (in which case the only consequence is a bump on the noggin).
Chant your incantations, make your entreaties, mutter your prayers--all of it is utterly meaningless and inconsequential, unless someone slips, falls and bumps their head while getting in or out of the baptismal font (in which case the only consequence is a bump on the noggin).
37
Ex-mormon here.
I think what HTC is getting at is the difference between "official doctrine" and the various cultural habits, urban legends and other crazy beliefs that have accumulated among Mormons. He (or she) is trying to claim that anti-gay sentiment may be common in the LDS community, but that it's not official. Unfortunately, he is (mostly) wrong.
First, there is the emphasis on family and straight marriage. While homosexuality is seldom mentioned, it is made quite clear that it is not an acceptable option. Your purpose here on earth is to get married and make lots of Mormon babies. See "The Family: A Proclamation to the World." This document was produced by the the First Presidency in 1995 (ie, the Prophet and his counselors) and might as well be modern scripture. This is clearly a stake in the ground against the increasing acceptance of both homosexuality and feminism in society.
Secondly, HTC says "I fully support equal rights for people of all sexual orientations, and my faith does not discourage this." I heard from family members that there was a video of the Prophet that was shown to Mormons in California explicity encouraging them to canvass their neighbors, donate money, etc., to make sure that Prop 8 passed. Yeah, I'm afraid you are just wrong. Your faith very much does discourage support for equal rights.
Now for the "mostly" part…
A week or two into my college career, one of my housemates came out to me. I had a moment of panic-- I'd never known a gay person before!-- and then I thought about the fact that I was now living with and friends with people who drank alcohol (and coffee!), did drugs, had premarital sex, didn't go to church, etc. I might not agree with some of the things they did, but that didn't stop me from being friends with them or treating them with respect. While I believed that being gay was a sin, nothing in my Mormon upbringing had taught me to treat it as any worse or different than any of the myriad of other sins are are all guilty of. So I said "oh, ok." And that was that. This response was very much a result of things I had been taught in church, and is the sort of thing the HTC is trying to communicate.
The problem is, the LDS church tries to have it both ways. On the ground, in daily life, and in particular, I suspect, outside of Utah, there is a lot teaching of acceptance of all people, whoever they are. But as an organization, and increasingly from a doctrinal standpoint, the church is increasingly taking a stand against homosexuality and gay rights.
As for proxy baptisms. *ugh*. Not a fan. I guess I understand why people get upset about it. But since I believe that people just cease to exist when they die, it's hard for me to get too bothered. Mostly I just think about how much time and effort church members put into work for the dead, and how much good could be done for living people instead.
More...
I think what HTC is getting at is the difference between "official doctrine" and the various cultural habits, urban legends and other crazy beliefs that have accumulated among Mormons. He (or she) is trying to claim that anti-gay sentiment may be common in the LDS community, but that it's not official. Unfortunately, he is (mostly) wrong.
First, there is the emphasis on family and straight marriage. While homosexuality is seldom mentioned, it is made quite clear that it is not an acceptable option. Your purpose here on earth is to get married and make lots of Mormon babies. See "The Family: A Proclamation to the World." This document was produced by the the First Presidency in 1995 (ie, the Prophet and his counselors) and might as well be modern scripture. This is clearly a stake in the ground against the increasing acceptance of both homosexuality and feminism in society.
Secondly, HTC says "I fully support equal rights for people of all sexual orientations, and my faith does not discourage this." I heard from family members that there was a video of the Prophet that was shown to Mormons in California explicity encouraging them to canvass their neighbors, donate money, etc., to make sure that Prop 8 passed. Yeah, I'm afraid you are just wrong. Your faith very much does discourage support for equal rights.
Now for the "mostly" part…
A week or two into my college career, one of my housemates came out to me. I had a moment of panic-- I'd never known a gay person before!-- and then I thought about the fact that I was now living with and friends with people who drank alcohol (and coffee!), did drugs, had premarital sex, didn't go to church, etc. I might not agree with some of the things they did, but that didn't stop me from being friends with them or treating them with respect. While I believed that being gay was a sin, nothing in my Mormon upbringing had taught me to treat it as any worse or different than any of the myriad of other sins are are all guilty of. So I said "oh, ok." And that was that. This response was very much a result of things I had been taught in church, and is the sort of thing the HTC is trying to communicate.
The problem is, the LDS church tries to have it both ways. On the ground, in daily life, and in particular, I suspect, outside of Utah, there is a lot teaching of acceptance of all people, whoever they are. But as an organization, and increasingly from a doctrinal standpoint, the church is increasingly taking a stand against homosexuality and gay rights.
As for proxy baptisms. *ugh*. Not a fan. I guess I understand why people get upset about it. But since I believe that people just cease to exist when they die, it's hard for me to get too bothered. Mostly I just think about how much time and effort church members put into work for the dead, and how much good could be done for living people instead.
38
31
You said that "SO MANY LDS gay kids off themselves."
If what you meant was "I'm an ignorant petulant bitter little pussy" you should have just said so.
How exactly is it CLEAR that LDS kids have committed suicide and attempted suicide based on the abusive teachings and accompanying feelings of worthlessness taught to them by the church?
You don't even know the rate of suicide among "homosexual" mormon kids. you pretend to know their motives?
How many people does Danny's "doctrine" of extramarital sex kill?
How many homosexuals are killed by AIDS some other homosexual gave them? 15000 a year? just in this country?
How many mormon kids does mormon doctrine kill? any?
your demands to render account seem very selective and poorly placed.
beams in the eye sometimes do that.
You said that "SO MANY LDS gay kids off themselves."
If what you meant was "I'm an ignorant petulant bitter little pussy" you should have just said so.
How exactly is it CLEAR that LDS kids have committed suicide and attempted suicide based on the abusive teachings and accompanying feelings of worthlessness taught to them by the church?
You don't even know the rate of suicide among "homosexual" mormon kids. you pretend to know their motives?
How many people does Danny's "doctrine" of extramarital sex kill?
How many homosexuals are killed by AIDS some other homosexual gave them? 15000 a year? just in this country?
How many mormon kids does mormon doctrine kill? any?
your demands to render account seem very selective and poorly placed.
beams in the eye sometimes do that.
40
Dan's Anne Frank objection seems strangely indignant, given that Dan is an athiest and knows perfectly well that neither Anne Frank nor anyone else has an immortal soul, and that Mormon proxy baptisms have absolutely no effect on souls that do not exist.
Clearly, the Mormon position on gay equality is fundamentally misguided. And the all dead Mormons are gay thing was a mildly amusing joke.
The only thing that makes me uncomfortable about some of this Mormon discussion is that people seem to single out Mormon religious practices for contempt and ridicule as if they were any sillier than the religious practices of more mainstream religions. Yes, Mormons baptize the dead -- and they also conduct by-proxy weddings for the dead and perform a number of other rituals on behalf of the dead. I see it as a way for Mormons to reinforce their own faith by going through the temple rituals over and over again on behalf of dead people, and it's also a nice gesture on behalf of dead people. I really don't think it is any stranger than the Catholic belief that communion wine & wafers are actually the blood and body of Christ, or that dead bodies will rise from their graves on judgment day.
Some Mormons sincerely believed that Anne Frank's soul deserved to ascend to the highest levels of heaven and that certain Mormon temple rituals needed to be performed on her behalf in order for that to happen. It's ridiculous, but it's not evil. It's actually kind of sweet. It's like those people who leave teddy bears on the graves of dead children -- it serves no purpose whatsoever but it doesn't hurt anyone either.
Nor does the baptism of the dead have anything to do with Prop. 8. A more relevant criticism of Mormonism would concern its teachings on black people, which were not revised until a few decades ago. The lesson there is that the Mormon church will eventually get the message that gay people are people too, and eventually they will revise their reactionary position on these issues. Probably it will happen around the same time the Catholic church does the same.
I just think we should take care not to be gratuitously contemptuous of or disrespectful to Mormons just because they have kooky beliefs. The overwhelming majority of them are among the nicest people you will ever meet.
More...
Clearly, the Mormon position on gay equality is fundamentally misguided. And the all dead Mormons are gay thing was a mildly amusing joke.
The only thing that makes me uncomfortable about some of this Mormon discussion is that people seem to single out Mormon religious practices for contempt and ridicule as if they were any sillier than the religious practices of more mainstream religions. Yes, Mormons baptize the dead -- and they also conduct by-proxy weddings for the dead and perform a number of other rituals on behalf of the dead. I see it as a way for Mormons to reinforce their own faith by going through the temple rituals over and over again on behalf of dead people, and it's also a nice gesture on behalf of dead people. I really don't think it is any stranger than the Catholic belief that communion wine & wafers are actually the blood and body of Christ, or that dead bodies will rise from their graves on judgment day.
Some Mormons sincerely believed that Anne Frank's soul deserved to ascend to the highest levels of heaven and that certain Mormon temple rituals needed to be performed on her behalf in order for that to happen. It's ridiculous, but it's not evil. It's actually kind of sweet. It's like those people who leave teddy bears on the graves of dead children -- it serves no purpose whatsoever but it doesn't hurt anyone either.
Nor does the baptism of the dead have anything to do with Prop. 8. A more relevant criticism of Mormonism would concern its teachings on black people, which were not revised until a few decades ago. The lesson there is that the Mormon church will eventually get the message that gay people are people too, and eventually they will revise their reactionary position on these issues. Probably it will happen around the same time the Catholic church does the same.
I just think we should take care not to be gratuitously contemptuous of or disrespectful to Mormons just because they have kooky beliefs. The overwhelming majority of them are among the nicest people you will ever meet.
41
@ 40-- I'm with you. Who cares what silly rituals Mormons carry out in the name of people who are dead (and therefore really can't care)? You have to be a religious nut to believe that there is a god somewhere who actually cares when someone on earth performs some meaningless ritual on behalf of someone else. Even the mildly religious can probably content themselves with the fact that THEIR god would know enough to ignore such silliness.
I ALSO agree with you that Mormons come in for more than their fair share of hazing for their beliefs. Their beliefs are no more or less ridiculous than many mainstream Xtian believes (e.g. transubstantiation)-- they just seem weirder because they haven't developed the forgiving patina of age yet.
I ALSO agree with you that Mormons come in for more than their fair share of hazing for their beliefs. Their beliefs are no more or less ridiculous than many mainstream Xtian believes (e.g. transubstantiation)-- they just seem weirder because they haven't developed the forgiving patina of age yet.
42
I just wanted to point out that before we can rationally discuss Mormon posthumous baptism, we must first determine how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
43
@ 17, in addition to @ 30's response, any actual Catholic (practicing or recovering) can tell you how little control the Vatican really has over its members, especially in comparison to the LDS. Protestantism on the whole is "freer," but many Protestant sects are extremely analogous to LDS, much more than Catholicism is.
44
As others have pointed out [and the LDS-ers don't seem to understand]: I don't want my name used in any of their hocus pocus.
They just can't understand how deeply offensive that is.
They just can't understand how deeply offensive that is.
45
I honestly cannot understand what the fuss is about. I am not a mormon, and could care less whether they posthumously baptize me, my family, or anyone else who lives on their planet with them. Want to know why? Because I don't believe that what they are doing has any meaning whatsoever. Go ahead, put a hex on me. Who cares?
46
AndK. @45: What if they put your name on a document advocating support for Prop 8 or some other anti-gay bullshit? Still believe it doesn't have any meaning?
I don't believe in any kind of magic, whether it's religion or homeopathy, but the real truth is that religions are social institutions pushing certain agendas, and whether you agree with their metaphysics or not, allowing them to add your name to their roster is allowing them to associate your name with support of their social agenda.
I don't believe in any kind of magic, whether it's religion or homeopathy, but the real truth is that religions are social institutions pushing certain agendas, and whether you agree with their metaphysics or not, allowing them to add your name to their roster is allowing them to associate your name with support of their social agenda.
47
@40: "Dan's Anne Frank objection seems strangely indignant, given that Dan is an athiest and knows perfectly well that neither Anne Frank nor anyone else has an immortal soul, and that Mormon proxy baptisms have absolutely no effect on souls that do not exist."
It's about being respectful to people who DO believe in souls.
It's about being respectful to people who DO believe in souls.
48
Look. Seriously. The mormons are still working on giving women equal rights. They are slow plodders. Leaders have to die off in order to be replaced, and this can take a long time given their no drink, no smoke policies. So, the person at the helm of this authoritarian regime (er, prophet) is a little, uh yesterday? It took them until the 70s to treat African Americans equally. Who knows how long it will take for them to institutionalize equality for women or the LGBT community. Probably not in my lifetime, but maybe in my life to come? After I'm baptized?
49
It is completely disingenuous to say that you "have never heard any officially preached doctrine about whether being gay is a choice". The words and actions of the mormon church have made it very clear where they stand. Growing up as an LDS teen I can remember numerous instances of the church coming out against homosexuality in no uncertain terms.
The first instance is in the 1995 "The Family: a Proclamation" which states: "Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan...Happiness in family life is most likely to be achieved when founded upon the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. "
Second, seminary students (all high-school aged mormon youth) are to memorize 2 Tim 3:1-5 as part of their scriptural education regarding the 'end times'. And the Seminary teacher's manual points out that the 'unnatural affections' mentioned in verse 3 are referring to homosexuality. Not only is being gay against god's plan, it's apparently one of the signs of the apocalypse.
Finally I remember being given 'For the strength of youth' pamphlets, a whole series of church-published guides about living and behavior for LDS teens. in the Sexual Purity pamphlet it states "Homosexual and lesbian behavior is a serious sin. If you find yourself struggling with same-gender attraction or you are being persuaded to participate in inappropriate behavior, seek counsel from your parents and bishop. They will help you." That certainly sounds to me like the church thinks same-sex attraction can be changed.
Just because homosexuality is not mentioned in the Articles of Faith doesn't mean that it's not an active dogma in the church. Saying you've 'never heard' anyone officially preach gay conversion is nothing more than semantics to make yourself feel better about your allegiance to such a bigoted institution. I didn't have to see the bishop stand up before the congregation and tell us specifically that being gay is wrong and a changeable condition to know that the church believed it, and neither did my mother who told me that she would not accept my same sex relationship until the church changed their position.
More...
The first instance is in the 1995 "The Family: a Proclamation" which states: "Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan...Happiness in family life is most likely to be achieved when founded upon the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. "
Second, seminary students (all high-school aged mormon youth) are to memorize 2 Tim 3:1-5 as part of their scriptural education regarding the 'end times'. And the Seminary teacher's manual points out that the 'unnatural affections' mentioned in verse 3 are referring to homosexuality. Not only is being gay against god's plan, it's apparently one of the signs of the apocalypse.
Finally I remember being given 'For the strength of youth' pamphlets, a whole series of church-published guides about living and behavior for LDS teens. in the Sexual Purity pamphlet it states "Homosexual and lesbian behavior is a serious sin. If you find yourself struggling with same-gender attraction or you are being persuaded to participate in inappropriate behavior, seek counsel from your parents and bishop. They will help you." That certainly sounds to me like the church thinks same-sex attraction can be changed.
Just because homosexuality is not mentioned in the Articles of Faith doesn't mean that it's not an active dogma in the church. Saying you've 'never heard' anyone officially preach gay conversion is nothing more than semantics to make yourself feel better about your allegiance to such a bigoted institution. I didn't have to see the bishop stand up before the congregation and tell us specifically that being gay is wrong and a changeable condition to know that the church believed it, and neither did my mother who told me that she would not accept my same sex relationship until the church changed their position.
50
@44 - precisely.
"Because it is my name! Because I cannot have another in my life! Because I lie and sign myself to lies! Because I am not worth the dust on the feet of them that hang! How may I live without my name? I have given you my soul; leave me my name!" - The Crucible
"Because it is my name! Because I cannot have another in my life! Because I lie and sign myself to lies! Because I am not worth the dust on the feet of them that hang! How may I live without my name? I have given you my soul; leave me my name!" - The Crucible
51
The letter writer is either flat out lying when they say that they are unaware of any official LDS doctrine regarding homosexuality, or has massive blinders on.
If they honestly believe they've never heard anything of the sort, they should watch 8: The Mormon Proposition. I challenge any Mormon with an ounce of humanity that believes in equal rights to see this and not be moved - not just at the lengths the LDS church went to, but the treatment of Mormons who objected to it.
If they honestly believe they've never heard anything of the sort, they should watch 8: The Mormon Proposition. I challenge any Mormon with an ounce of humanity that believes in equal rights to see this and not be moved - not just at the lengths the LDS church went to, but the treatment of Mormons who objected to it.
52
As a gay exmormon, I have to point out how many people here are speaking from complete ignorance.
Yes, the beliefs are stupid, but please make a point to figure out what the fuck they are before making your criticisms.
Yes, the beliefs are stupid, but please make a point to figure out what the fuck they are before making your criticisms.
53
Ordinary members are unaware of the poor treatment of gay Mormons because they are disappeared. Stricken from the records. Never mentioned again.
54
Oh yeah, and about the "baptism for the dead" being "totally a choice".
I might be able to accept this bullshit logic if they limited this practice for people who were not exposed to Mormonism in life - IE people living in secluded rainforests or anyone before 1830. I still wouldn't, but this deflated tire might have a little more air in it.
But no, they don't. They will happily do their rituals for people who actively, vocally, and loudly rejected Mormonism in life, as a "now you're dead, you can't object!" gotcha.
That's just slimy.
PS: Why did Anne Frank need nine tries? What was wrong with the first one anyway?
I might be able to accept this bullshit logic if they limited this practice for people who were not exposed to Mormonism in life - IE people living in secluded rainforests or anyone before 1830. I still wouldn't, but this deflated tire might have a little more air in it.
But no, they don't. They will happily do their rituals for people who actively, vocally, and loudly rejected Mormonism in life, as a "now you're dead, you can't object!" gotcha.
That's just slimy.
PS: Why did Anne Frank need nine tries? What was wrong with the first one anyway?
55
@ 52, your comment on its own says nothing. Instead of leaving it like that, why don't you say EXACTLY what people here are wrong about?
56
I will be really mad if I'm yanked out of my blissful realm of atheist non-being and shoved into an eternal Mormon social.
57
@52: I'd say feel free to point out the inconsistencies, but the Mormons being willfully ignorant about the offense they're creating transcends anyone "misunderstanding" Mormon culture.
58
I ask because I don't know: does LDS education include church history back to pre-Constantine; do LDSers discuss the apologists and the definitions of heresy?
And I beg Dan'sDevotees (Our version of Dittoheads) to please print this out as a guide
Pour= dispense, lave or wash
Poor- without money or power
Pore= study, meditate on or scan carefully
seeing these words misused makes me squeeze out a little santorum
And I beg Dan'sDevotees (Our version of Dittoheads) to please print this out as a guide
Pour= dispense, lave or wash
Poor- without money or power
Pore= study, meditate on or scan carefully
seeing these words misused makes me squeeze out a little santorum
59
What if, as he was pulling your religion out of a hat (that's how it happened! He listened to a hat!), Joseph Smith mis-heard something? What if he got it 60% right, but, as you might expect from a convicted con men (which he was) he just bullshitted the other 40%? What if you really are affecting people in the afterlife, but you're really just turning them into sad ghosts? Jennifer Love-Hewitt will not be able to undo all of this free-floating afterlife angst.
60
Has anybody else read Martha Beck's "Leaving the Saints"? I used to think that Mormons were deluded but sweet, and then I read about how she received DEATH THREATS from other Mormons for accusing her father (an important Mormon elder) of sexual abuse.
61
To counter the OP, I will merely quote from their prophet, seer and revelator Boyd K. Packer "Some suppose that they were preset and cannot overcome what they feel are inborn tendencies toward the impure and unnatural. Not so! Why would our Heavenly Father do that to anyone? Remember, God is our Heavenly Father."
62
Dear H.T.C.,
I appreciate that you and fellow Mormons think you're offering a choice or a second chance to make that choice.
By now, you must be aware that many people find Mormon posthumous baptism offensive, and that the relatives of such dead "baptized" folks consider your practice to be extremely disrespectful.
Since you say that most of the posthumously baptized "Mormons" are the ancestors of current Mormons, who presumably died before the religion was established and who therefore couldn't make that choice, why doesn't the LDS incorporate the following rules for posthumous baptism:
1) the posthumous baptism must be of someone whose descendants are all Mormon, so that no relatives object.
2) the baptism must be performed in the name of someone who died before the Mormon church was established, so they didn't get the chance to become Mormon (and would presumably be grateful for the opportunity).
If a person doesn't meet both sets of criteria, I think it is only fair to acknowledge that either he or she had the choice and didn't want to make it, so that your act goes against his or her wishes, or that his or her descendants find your baptism offensive, and their wishes should be respected.
And if the Church has a problem with this proposed policy and set of criteria, I think you might want to do a little more questioning of what could be a different motivation.
I appreciate that you and fellow Mormons think you're offering a choice or a second chance to make that choice.
By now, you must be aware that many people find Mormon posthumous baptism offensive, and that the relatives of such dead "baptized" folks consider your practice to be extremely disrespectful.
Since you say that most of the posthumously baptized "Mormons" are the ancestors of current Mormons, who presumably died before the religion was established and who therefore couldn't make that choice, why doesn't the LDS incorporate the following rules for posthumous baptism:
1) the posthumous baptism must be of someone whose descendants are all Mormon, so that no relatives object.
2) the baptism must be performed in the name of someone who died before the Mormon church was established, so they didn't get the chance to become Mormon (and would presumably be grateful for the opportunity).
If a person doesn't meet both sets of criteria, I think it is only fair to acknowledge that either he or she had the choice and didn't want to make it, so that your act goes against his or her wishes, or that his or her descendants find your baptism offensive, and their wishes should be respected.
And if the Church has a problem with this proposed policy and set of criteria, I think you might want to do a little more questioning of what could be a different motivation.
63
Something else H.T.C. may not have considered: there are lots of people who have had the opportunity to be baptized in life, and have specifically and categorically REFUSED. Take, for example, the Quakers -- they believed that baptism by water imperilled their immortal souls. They refused baptism during times when lack of baptismal records meant that you couldn't legally marry, inherit, occupy land, etc.
Just saying, "Oh, well, they don't have to accept the baptism" dismisses the fact that by posthumously baptizing such folk, you have, at the very least, gravely insulted their memory.
Just saying, "Oh, well, they don't have to accept the baptism" dismisses the fact that by posthumously baptizing such folk, you have, at the very least, gravely insulted their memory.
64
Hey BrinkleyBoy you want clarity of understanding regarding your former faith? Offer some up, we're listening, it should be amusing. It's not as if the rest of us are going to read the book of mormon to get schooled. Hell, the fact that Romney loves that trash should disqualify him from being president of a book club, let alone the United States.
66
Part of the controversy with the postmortem baptisms is not so much that they occurred, but that the Mormon Church has been lying about it. When first confronted about it years ago, the Mormon Church leadership apologized and promised not to baptize those who died in concentration camps unless their direct descendants converted to Mormonism and performed it themselves. The present controversy is that they lied. They continue to secretly perform the baptisms while publicly denying that they are occurring.
On the one hand, it's hard for me to get worked up over something I consider to be so meaningless and bullshit. On the other hand, it fits into a pattern of the Mormon Church lying to even their own parishioners. Shady, shady, shady.
On the one hand, it's hard for me to get worked up over something I consider to be so meaningless and bullshit. On the other hand, it fits into a pattern of the Mormon Church lying to even their own parishioners. Shady, shady, shady.
67
Speaking as an amateur geneologist, I like the way the LDS church searches out the names of everyone in their ancestry for posthumous baptism. If not for this, many old records would have been destroyed or simply decayed enough to be unreadable. The Mormons got in the archives of, well, everywhere and made copies, first microfich and later scanning. as a result, I imagine an obscure LDS many times removed cousin has proxy baptised my scottish/german/english/etc ancestors. They dont care at all as they are dead except as they live on in my DNA.
I have 'queeried' my DNA and it's alright with proxy baptisms as it is just a silly story.. along with living baptisms, jesus and Mitt Romney's chances of being president.
I have 'queeried' my DNA and it's alright with proxy baptisms as it is just a silly story.. along with living baptisms, jesus and Mitt Romney's chances of being president.
68
@BrinklerBoy, I think you should pardon the excessive vehemence of some people here -- they've really adopted some of the more extreme rhetorics of the people they themselves criticize, apparently oblivious to the irony.
I would certainly be surprised if most of the non-Mormons here did have much knowledge about Mormon beliefs and could therefore speak from any position other than that of total ignorance.
Still, there is no doubt that the practice of offering posthumous baptism to people whose families are not Mormon would need to take into consideration, not only Mormon beliefs, but also the beliefs of said families, and of the deceased. Or else, how could such a ceremony not be felt as offensive to non-Mormons (as you probably would think if deceased Mormons were similarly offered the possibility of becoming Catholics, Muslims, or atheists, with a similar ceremony)?
Or, basically, I agree with @nocutename above.
Feel free to point out any mistakes people here may have made with respect to the LDS church and their beliefs. I, for one, would be sincerely interested.
I would certainly be surprised if most of the non-Mormons here did have much knowledge about Mormon beliefs and could therefore speak from any position other than that of total ignorance.
Still, there is no doubt that the practice of offering posthumous baptism to people whose families are not Mormon would need to take into consideration, not only Mormon beliefs, but also the beliefs of said families, and of the deceased. Or else, how could such a ceremony not be felt as offensive to non-Mormons (as you probably would think if deceased Mormons were similarly offered the possibility of becoming Catholics, Muslims, or atheists, with a similar ceremony)?
Or, basically, I agree with @nocutename above.
Feel free to point out any mistakes people here may have made with respect to the LDS church and their beliefs. I, for one, would be sincerely interested.
69
On one hand I do find the Mormon ideas surrounding the posthumous batisms a far kinder solution to not being exposed to the "right" religion than the evangelical alternative (straight to hell). However, as a person who rejected all forms of Christianity to become a mystical Jew, I find the entire idea to be quite condescending. It assumes that the Mormon faith is THE ONE TRUE FAITH, which I, and many others, completely reject (one of the main reasons I rejected the evangelical Christianity in which I was raised).
Even though I don't believe they have any affect on a person's soul after death, I find them disrespectful to the relatives of those who did not wish their ancestor baptised and to those of other faiths. As somebody above pointed out, it's about not respecting others' wishes and faiths.
As for the concentration camp victims, I find this doubly offensive. These people literally died because of their religious and cultural heritage and beliefs and then somebody comes along and posthumously baptises them so they can "choose" their faith? I think they made their final choice in life and it is incredibly disrespectful to subject them to a posthumous ceremony in your religion, even if your intentions are good. And it is disrespectful of those who survived the camps, came to America and soundly rejected Mormonism when they were alive.
Maybe we should have all dead Mormons exhumed and place pennies on their eyes to make sure they have the toll to pay the guy who will ferry them across the river Styx? It would have the same effect as the posthumous batisms - none for the dead person, but it would surely upset their family and would be seen as a form of desecration and disrespect.
Even though I don't believe they have any affect on a person's soul after death, I find them disrespectful to the relatives of those who did not wish their ancestor baptised and to those of other faiths. As somebody above pointed out, it's about not respecting others' wishes and faiths.
As for the concentration camp victims, I find this doubly offensive. These people literally died because of their religious and cultural heritage and beliefs and then somebody comes along and posthumously baptises them so they can "choose" their faith? I think they made their final choice in life and it is incredibly disrespectful to subject them to a posthumous ceremony in your religion, even if your intentions are good. And it is disrespectful of those who survived the camps, came to America and soundly rejected Mormonism when they were alive.
Maybe we should have all dead Mormons exhumed and place pennies on their eyes to make sure they have the toll to pay the guy who will ferry them across the river Styx? It would have the same effect as the posthumous batisms - none for the dead person, but it would surely upset their family and would be seen as a form of desecration and disrespect.
72
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39
70
The $200k is from the Official, Institutional Church (in-kind monetary donations) and the TENS OF MILLIONS was given by individual Mormons at the DIRECTION of their leadership.
Mormons bought and paid for Prop 8. They OWN it and can not run away from that fact.
39
70
The $200k is from the Official, Institutional Church (in-kind monetary donations) and the TENS OF MILLIONS was given by individual Mormons at the DIRECTION of their leadership.
Mormons bought and paid for Prop 8. They OWN it and can not run away from that fact.
73
At first I thought this was supercreepy but the more I think about it, I'm convinced it would be a win-win for me.
If I'm dead and gone, as I suspect I will be, I'll be none the wiser BUT if there is a hell I will probably be in it (unless my youthful Southern Baptist "salvation" was permanent, not clear on that). So if some Mormon stops by and offers to pull me out of the lake of fire and send me to one of their wacky space colonies on Zenon or whatever, it'll probably be a relief.
Of course spending eternity as the 67th wife of some creepazoid dude is probably some lesser version of hell in and of itself but at least I wouldn't have wasted my whole life on earth doing that like the other 66 wives. I'll have had my coffee and my premarital sex and my cold IPA and baptism too!
If I'm dead and gone, as I suspect I will be, I'll be none the wiser BUT if there is a hell I will probably be in it (unless my youthful Southern Baptist "salvation" was permanent, not clear on that). So if some Mormon stops by and offers to pull me out of the lake of fire and send me to one of their wacky space colonies on Zenon or whatever, it'll probably be a relief.
Of course spending eternity as the 67th wife of some creepazoid dude is probably some lesser version of hell in and of itself but at least I wouldn't have wasted my whole life on earth doing that like the other 66 wives. I'll have had my coffee and my premarital sex and my cold IPA and baptism too!
74
@73, Unless there is a God and it finds the very practice of baptism superstition that it punishes, and being baptized, even posthumously, is grounds for being sent to hell.
See, these Mormons are using a form of Pascal's Wager, basically saying that if they are right then the deceased gets into heaven, but if they are wrong there is no harm done.
But like the Wager the main flaw (far from the only flaw) is that it is a false dichotomy that assumes that there are only two possible options, that either the thing they are pushing will help, or it will have no effect and so not harm. It completely ignores the possibility that any of the infinite other scenarios may be true.
Objectively the idea that a God would be offended by a baptism is just as rational as the idea that a God would let someone into heaven based on a posthumous baptism.
See, these Mormons are using a form of Pascal's Wager, basically saying that if they are right then the deceased gets into heaven, but if they are wrong there is no harm done.
But like the Wager the main flaw (far from the only flaw) is that it is a false dichotomy that assumes that there are only two possible options, that either the thing they are pushing will help, or it will have no effect and so not harm. It completely ignores the possibility that any of the infinite other scenarios may be true.
Objectively the idea that a God would be offended by a baptism is just as rational as the idea that a God would let someone into heaven based on a posthumous baptism.
75
Fuck the mormons and fuck mormon apologists. I don't need to study the minutiae of your inanity to recognize that it is inane. And, while I'm at it, fuck the rest of you and your religions too! Have a nice day.
76
@74: Yes put Pascal's Wager is based on actions taken in this life. If I've already been dead for 40 years or so before they get around to me I'll presumably already have the inside dope and if I'm already in hell it can't get any worse, right?
77
Yeah, but what if you are in heaven, but they baptize you and you get sucked immediately out of heaven and sent to hell with all the other baptized cursed folks?
79
@77: My understanding is that they are giving you a second chance to choose. I imagine them showing up on the shore of the fiery lake with their short-sleeve dress shirts, ties and polite demeanors.
If, however, I'm already in the good non-polygamy heaven (thank you Southern Baptist perma-salvation) I'll just do what I do here and gently shut the pearly gate in their faces.
If, however, I'm already in the good non-polygamy heaven (thank you Southern Baptist perma-salvation) I'll just do what I do here and gently shut the pearly gate in their faces.
80
@79, Ah, but they are actually baptizing you in absentia. They may think they are just giving you the choice, but once the magic water hits the baptism proxy in the eye the great, vengeful and uncompromising GOD!!!! will yank you from heaven and send you to hell, because the magic water hitting the proxy is enough for him to consider you cursed.
That's my fear at least. If any of these Mormons can give me proof that isn't the case then great, but until then I consider them as imperiling my immortal soul, as foretold by Gork the great God of ALL!!!
That's my fear at least. If any of these Mormons can give me proof that isn't the case then great, but until then I consider them as imperiling my immortal soul, as foretold by Gork the great God of ALL!!!
81
@80: Dammit Fortunate, now I have to go back to brooding about my immortal soul all day. Luckily I'm cute when I brood.
82
Yeah, the part where he says "I fully support equal rights for people of all sexual orientations, and my faith does not discourage this" is just not true. He is either deceiving himself or is lying.
I grew up in an LDS family, and I remember in the 90's when they issued A Proclamation to the World (astutely pointed out by others). I remember church officials saying that anybody "caught" supporting gay marriage would not be right in the eyes of the church. The church definitely does not "support equal rights", as long as you count marriage as a right.
Also, this kind of thing is very familiar sounding, again, as someone who grew up LDS and attended BYU for a spell. If you look at church history through the civil rights era, you find absolutely no support from the church. There are plenty of quotes about the NCAAP being some evil communist plot and the rest. I don't think the church was especially worse than most white culture of the era, but they certainly weren't civil rights leaders. Black people weren't allowed to be full priesthood holder until 1978. But then you fast forward to the present and you get Mitt Romney saying his father in fact marched with MLK and that the church was some huge champion of civil rights. They just keep repeating it and repeating it and until somehow it becomes true.
I grew up in an LDS family, and I remember in the 90's when they issued A Proclamation to the World (astutely pointed out by others). I remember church officials saying that anybody "caught" supporting gay marriage would not be right in the eyes of the church. The church definitely does not "support equal rights", as long as you count marriage as a right.
Also, this kind of thing is very familiar sounding, again, as someone who grew up LDS and attended BYU for a spell. If you look at church history through the civil rights era, you find absolutely no support from the church. There are plenty of quotes about the NCAAP being some evil communist plot and the rest. I don't think the church was especially worse than most white culture of the era, but they certainly weren't civil rights leaders. Black people weren't allowed to be full priesthood holder until 1978. But then you fast forward to the present and you get Mitt Romney saying his father in fact marched with MLK and that the church was some huge champion of civil rights. They just keep repeating it and repeating it and until somehow it becomes true.
83
Seems to me that these after death baptisms are a form of spiritual masturbation with necrophiliac theme. Creepy, but ultimately a fantasy, and you can't do anything about someone else's fantasy.
85
Sounds like a million other believers of a dozen other faiths, who are nice, and go to church with nice people, and don't understand how their faith crushes the lives of people. When does the ignorance become willful?
86
@85: "When does the ignorance become willful?"
When all the good feelings of the experiential are designed and wielded to crush independent thought.
When all the good feelings of the experiential are designed and wielded to crush independent thought.
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