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News & ArtsFriday, February 24, 2012
Savage Love SL Letter of the Day: Who Said Life Was Fair?
Posted by Dan Savage on Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 3:45 PM
I'm a 37 year-old straight woman, GGG and married for almost 10 years. Before we were married, my husband told me that he wanted to watch me with other men. After several years of discussions about boundaries and rules, I agreed, and I've since played with a few other men, both alone and with my husband. We've both thoroughly enjoyed our play! The problem is that, inevitably, the idea of him playing with another woman, or of both of us with a couple, will come up, and for me it's the opposite of sexy. I panic at the idea of him with another woman. I've always been up front about the rules: he is not allowed to play. I know: "not equal," but I'm more than happy to give up my own freedom if he feels that it's unfair. And we have talked a lot about the fact that seeing me with another man is HIS fantasy, while seeing him with another woman is NOT mine. But I know it doesn't make sense.
I have played with other men and have had no problem keeping my emotions out of it, so why can't I convince myself that he would do the same? Intellectually, I know it's no different and I want him to have fun! But emotionally, I can't wrap my head around it. Adding to my confusion is that he recently played alone with a male friend of ours, someone we have played with together, and I was completely comfortable with it. Rather than being scared, I was happy that he got to have a little adventure and I was glad he got some pleasure out of it. I wasn't turned on by it, but I certainly wasn't turned off and would be comfortable with him doing it again. My play has made me feel, for the first time in my life, attractive and sexy, and although he has never pressured me about this, I would like it if he could get a similar shot of confidence.
So do you have any advice for me about how to take the comfort I felt with him and our male friend and apply it to the idea of him with another woman or should I just accept that I'm doomed to a natural aversion to handing my man to another woman?
He's Often Tethered While I Freely Experiment
My response after the jump...
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Does he mind? Does it bother your husband that you're allowed to do things he isn't allowed to do? Is he dying to sleep with other women?—Dan
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I apologize now for what might be a too-long answer to your questions, but it's an indescribable relief to have SOMEONE to talk to about this. (We live in a very small town and I can't talk with any of my friends about this!)
I think that we were both unprepared for how much I would like my play. When I was a younger woman, I never felt attractive, like, ever. I can look back now and realize that I was, but I was the type of girl who was totally clueless. If I was hit on, I never realized it. And even when I met and married my husband, I was convinced that he was much more attractive than I was and that he was settling for brains over looks. And then, in an attempt to help him realize a fantasy—seeing me with someone else—I put myself out there in a way I never had before, which was easy for the first time because I didn't feel I had anything invested in other mens' response. And it was an enormous boost to my confidence to find that there are lots of men who find me attractive. So I think that seeing what a positive effect this had on me made him wish he could have the same thing... but the thing is, neither of us saw that coming. Being jealous of the other men we were prepared for, although that never materialized. What we weren't expecting was how much fun I would end up having. So I don't think it's the freedom he's looking for so much as the fun.
And I recognize that it's totally unfair. When he encourages me to look for a potential playmate, I do! But he's not allowed to play with anyone else, and even talking about it makes me feel scared and defensive. I don't even like to hear about women he was with before we met. On the other hand, I'm always careful to remind him (gently) that it was never on the table for him and that I still don't have a lot invested in playing with other people so it won't bother me a bit to give it up. The fantasies I want to explore have nothing to do with other people. But if it IS so inconsequential and so easy to give up, why can't I let him have it? If it's such a small part of who I am and what I want that I could easily do without it, then wouldn't it be a small, simple thing to let him have it, too? AAGGH! It's always this same circle!—HOTWIFE
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It's nice that you recognize how totally unfair this situation is and it's swell that you have the decency to feel conflicted about. That speaks well to your character, HOTWIFE. But like you said: seeing you with another man is his fantasy; seeing him with another woman is not yours. If your husband can accept this limitation—if he can cheerfully accept it—then I think you should go ahead and continue to play with other men and that you shouldn't feel too bad about the existentially cosmic unfairness of it all.
In short: take your husband's, "Yes, go for it!" for an answer.
Unless that "yes" comes with a side of guilt. If your husband can take pleasure in your pleasure, if he can enjoy having his hotwife/cuckold fantasies fulfilled, and if not being able to sleep with other women is the price of admission that he's willing pay to have those fantasies fulfilled by you, then you should continue to play with other men.
And you should continue to have the decency feel conflicted about it. Because I'm confident that if you keep thinking about this, HOTWIFE, you'll eventually be able to wrap your head around the idea of your husband playing with another woman. It may take a few years for you to get there—but it took you a few years to get where you are now.
1
Maybe she could watch one of the men she has played with (one she doesn't have an emotional connection with) be with another woman? Kind of a desensitization thing, take some of the fear and awkwardness out of it? Or she and her husband could go to a swinger event and just watch, to see if that would make her uncomfortable?
2
The REAL tragedy of this woman is that she thinks SHE's the ONLY one in her town with this issue. So I conclude they drive out of town to play. I suspect that if she had the boobs to bring this issue up to her "friends" they'd all ask her to help them out with the SAME issues. It never ceases to amaze me how many people THINK they are the ONLY ones with a problem. No Virginia you are NOT that unique.
3
What's the problem??? Your husband is getting HIS fantasy fulfilled, isn't he? Or was this just a precursor into having a way into guilting you into letting him fuck around with other women? Do you have other types of kinks/fantasies that he is fulfilling? If not, why not? Why does everything have to be equal? It's not like you fuckin around with other men was YOUR idea...it was his.
4
A swinger event sounds constructive, or maybe finding another couple to play with--ideally, one with a bi husband she could trust her husband with initially. It might be a little less uncomfortable if it was four friends playing together, rather than having to share her husband with another woman. Plus a trusted partner couple would give her someone other than nationally syndicated columnists to talk things out with. Of course finding a couple like that is probably a unicorn hunt squared, but it might help.
I think this topic really illustrates how "fairness" isn't really a binary, off/on scenario. She's allowed to play, he isn't; it's his fantasy, it's not her fantasy; it makes her feel attractive and secure, it makes her feel abandoned and insecure. Fairness depends on how you construct the description.
I think this topic really illustrates how "fairness" isn't really a binary, off/on scenario. She's allowed to play, he isn't; it's his fantasy, it's not her fantasy; it makes her feel attractive and secure, it makes her feel abandoned and insecure. Fairness depends on how you construct the description.
5
Like almost anything that seems scary until you try it, you're going to be terrified of seeing your husband with another woman until you (drum roll please) try it. Driving? Scary until you learn to do it. Rock climbing? Ditto. Moving away from home, taking your first flight, losing your virginity... all of these worthwhile things can be absolutely nerve-wracking until you just DO them, and then, afterward, think, "Hey, that wasn't so bad at all!"
You can ease into it. Try some baby steps, if this really makes you feel bad and if it's something he's expressed interest in. Let him flirt with another woman at a bar, then maybe let him kiss, then maybe some petting. You can call it off at any step along the way if you're really freaking out.
There's no need to press the issue, but just knowing that you'd be willing to experiment and give it an honest, if cautious, try in spite of your fear, if he really wanted to, might help ease your burden of guilt a little.
You can ease into it. Try some baby steps, if this really makes you feel bad and if it's something he's expressed interest in. Let him flirt with another woman at a bar, then maybe let him kiss, then maybe some petting. You can call it off at any step along the way if you're really freaking out.
There's no need to press the issue, but just knowing that you'd be willing to experiment and give it an honest, if cautious, try in spite of your fear, if he really wanted to, might help ease your burden of guilt a little.
6
Hmm. I used to find the idea of my wife and another man intolerable. Now I don't at all. Maybe LW can figure out why it bothers her so much and address that issue.
In my case, I wasn't confident that I could attract other women, and sounds like LW has similar insecurities. There's nothing like putting yourself in the game getting some attention (as LW has done) to allay those fears. It's also helped that I've grown more secure about my wife's connection to me since then. Maybe LW is afraid she'll lose her man?
Whatever the specific worries that make LW uncomfortable, if she's able to dig beneath the surface and address them, I think she can make the emotional transition required to let her hubby have the same fun she's having.
In my case, I wasn't confident that I could attract other women, and sounds like LW has similar insecurities. There's nothing like putting yourself in the game getting some attention (as LW has done) to allay those fears. It's also helped that I've grown more secure about my wife's connection to me since then. Maybe LW is afraid she'll lose her man?
Whatever the specific worries that make LW uncomfortable, if she's able to dig beneath the surface and address them, I think she can make the emotional transition required to let her hubby have the same fun she's having.
7
I kinda echo what a lot of others are saying: you're afraid, LW, but what if you take the plunge and nothing "happens" (re: your fears do not manifest?) which in all likelihood is the case (your husband sounds mature enough to separate sex from emotion). In addition there are lots of ways to have fun with this, like get him fucked unsuspectingly, ie find a woman (who doesn't threaten you) and give him a surprise. Jump out of a cake? Something like that. Cause with all big fear-overcoming plunges, I bet the results will be exhilarating. Like bungy jumping, you may want to go it again, and again, and again...
9
HotWife might consider sending or taking her husband to strip clubs as step in dealing with where she is with her arrangement.
It's a somewhat sexy time with another woman that HotWife can use to gauge or normalize her reponses, but the nature of it removes most of the standard threatening aspects.
Even if it simply strengthens her conviction that her husband may not play, it may still help her feel like she tried to address any imbalance.
It's a somewhat sexy time with another woman that HotWife can use to gauge or normalize her reponses, but the nature of it removes most of the standard threatening aspects.
Even if it simply strengthens her conviction that her husband may not play, it may still help her feel like she tried to address any imbalance.
10
I wonder if LW has not fully overcome her feelings of beauty inadequacy. "Perhaps if husband plays with another woman, he'll realize that I really am not very attractive."
But yeah, unless the husband is making a big deal of it, just put the issue on the shelf, and take it down for revisiting in a year or so.
But yeah, unless the husband is making a big deal of it, just put the issue on the shelf, and take it down for revisiting in a year or so.
11
What's totally unfair? The fact that they have different fantasies? It would be one thing if the husband was constantly guilt-tripping her and pressuring her to let him sleep with other women, but that doesn't sound like the case. I think LW is beating herself up too much.
12
In her second, long letter, LW addresses HER feelings, but I didn't see her answer Dan's question: how does HE feel about it?
I still don't know how much of a problem this is for her husband, whether he's dying to have sex with another woman, or what. Obviously it means SOMETHING to him, or she wouldn't have to "...always ... remind him (gently) that it was never on the table for him". The only thing I noticed her saying about his feelings is that she believes he's missing the fun, not the freedom.
Seems self-centered.
I still don't know how much of a problem this is for her husband, whether he's dying to have sex with another woman, or what. Obviously it means SOMETHING to him, or she wouldn't have to "...always ... remind him (gently) that it was never on the table for him". The only thing I noticed her saying about his feelings is that she believes he's missing the fun, not the freedom.
Seems self-centered.
13
I hope the wife pays extra attention to Dan's last paragraph, wherein he encourages her (gently) to come around on this.
14
Of course, he may not get the same kind of affirmation from looking for play partners outside their marriage that she has. In my experience, it's much easier for a woman to find men for an NSA arrangement than it is for men to find women.
15
As someone who is decidedly NOT hot, I hereby declare that swans and butterflies like this LW automatically earn the big LMB.
16
HOTWIFE is borrowing trouble that doesn't actually exist. It's all speculative, that "inevitably " the subject of him playing with other women "will come up". And who is to say that the panic that she feels when she thinks about this scenario is indicative of what her reaction actually will be, when and if that ever happens?
My husband very much wants to watch me with other men. I am game to the other men, but would prefer not to be watched. I have no issues with the idea of him with other women, but I have no interest in observing or being involved. Similarly, he tells me that he has no issue with me having sex with other men, but he wants to know about it (in advance or after the fact has not been clarified) while again, I see no need for me to be aware of his every sexual move. I had (apparently foolishly) thought that this was a unique conundrum.
My husband very much wants to watch me with other men. I am game to the other men, but would prefer not to be watched. I have no issues with the idea of him with other women, but I have no interest in observing or being involved. Similarly, he tells me that he has no issue with me having sex with other men, but he wants to know about it (in advance or after the fact has not been clarified) while again, I see no need for me to be aware of his every sexual move. I had (apparently foolishly) thought that this was a unique conundrum.
18
#12 noticed the same thing I did: she never actually answers Dan's question, she just takes it as another opportunity to talk about her own feelings. Hmmm.
If it *does* bother him, then I'd suggest they try going without the cuckolding for a bit and see how much he (and she) misses it. And if she *does* still feel guilty, the baby-steps approach is a good idea.
She doesn't ever have to be turned on by the thought of him with someone else, but I'm a little concerned that she's still uncomfortable even hearing about his exes this far into the relationship. Sounds like there's more going on there.
Does she ever ask the husband to do things he's not that into?
If it *does* bother him, then I'd suggest they try going without the cuckolding for a bit and see how much he (and she) misses it. And if she *does* still feel guilty, the baby-steps approach is a good idea.
She doesn't ever have to be turned on by the thought of him with someone else, but I'm a little concerned that she's still uncomfortable even hearing about his exes this far into the relationship. Sounds like there's more going on there.
Does she ever ask the husband to do things he's not that into?
19
@17 why? A lot of women are like the LW, and me, and come to consider ourselves sexy in middle age. Doesn't mean we weren't good, giving, and game beforehand.
Re the LW's question - I like Dan's advice to take it slowly and appreciate how far they've come already. I like the advice @5 & 9 to try some baby steps and see how those go. And I like the suggestion @6 & 18 that she find someone (an open-minded therapist?) with whom to talk about the situation, someone to help her think through the Worst Possible Scenario, and maybe see that it's not so bad.
Re the LW's question - I like Dan's advice to take it slowly and appreciate how far they've come already. I like the advice @5 & 9 to try some baby steps and see how those go. And I like the suggestion @6 & 18 that she find someone (an open-minded therapist?) with whom to talk about the situation, someone to help her think through the Worst Possible Scenario, and maybe see that it's not so bad.
20
I noticed that I'm the only one who noticed that Dan totally missed the cue to ask her what HER fantasies were that were going unmet. She mentioned it and I think it is what is really bothering her that he got to have his fantasies fulfilled and she didn't.
21
@16: "HOTWIFE is borrowing trouble that doesn't actually exist."
Yeah, sounds like she's not as secure as she claims to be.
"My play has made me feel, for the first time in my life, attractive and sexy
...
When I was a younger woman, I never felt attractive, like, ever. I can look back now and realize that I was, but I was the type of girl who was totally clueless. If I was hit on, I never realized it. And even when I met and married my husband, I was convinced that he was much more attractive than I was and that he was settling for brains over looks"
She seems much younger than 37.
Yeah, sounds like she's not as secure as she claims to be.
"My play has made me feel, for the first time in my life, attractive and sexy
...
When I was a younger woman, I never felt attractive, like, ever. I can look back now and realize that I was, but I was the type of girl who was totally clueless. If I was hit on, I never realized it. And even when I met and married my husband, I was convinced that he was much more attractive than I was and that he was settling for brains over looks"
She seems much younger than 37.
22
I think both Dan and HOTWIFE missed the real issue. Mainly HOTWIFE's feelings of unattractiveness and insecurity. I think this is the heart of issue and her main fear about letting her husband play with other women.
Also I'm wondering if her husband even wants to play with other women or if HOTWIFE just feels she owes him this to make up for liking messing around with other guys, or to somehow compensate for her 'unattractiveness.
I can't help but think HOTWIFE should talk this over with a sex positive therapist.
Also I'm wondering if her husband even wants to play with other women or if HOTWIFE just feels she owes him this to make up for liking messing around with other guys, or to somehow compensate for her 'unattractiveness.
I can't help but think HOTWIFE should talk this over with a sex positive therapist.
23
@20, good point! "The fantasies I want to explore have nothing to do with other people."
It does sound like her fantasies should also be part of the conversation, so she feels more invested in their sexy fun times (instead of insisting that she can give it up at any moment).
It does sound like her fantasies should also be part of the conversation, so she feels more invested in their sexy fun times (instead of insisting that she can give it up at any moment).
24
If sleeping with other men had been your fantasy to begin with, there would be a bigger call for fairness a la symmetric permission. You wanting to get your own fantasy while wanting to deny him his (exact same) fantasy? Then I would say you were being hypocritical and unfair, and don't deserve to get yours until you release your death-grip on his. But this isn't that situation. This IS his fantasy. You are _giving_ him his fantasy. The fact that you are having a lot of fun doing it is icing on the cake.
I do have to say, the solution that your fear-based side proposes (brandishes threateningly?) is a little selfish because it basically threatens "or else you get nothing whatsoever. You either get to be content with enjoying my enjoyment, or you get nothing." Almost seems appropriate to add a "So there, neener-neener" to the end of it. Your fear is threatening to cut off both your proverbial noses to spite his proverbial face. The fact that you are getting so very much out of indulging his fantasy really ought to make you a little more generous, but hey, fear works like that, and I'm not saying anything you don't already know.
So: no, you aren't being actually unfair; no, you don't have to feel guilty about the practical imbalance in the current situation; yes, it is to your credit to want to correct it, even if it scares you.
You should continue to sit with those generous impulses that you mentioned (wanting him to get a shot of the same confidence); think about how much enjoyment you get from the experience and how little threat when you see it from the other side, rather than what fear whispers in your ear; think about how happy you will make him by opening up that same possibility. He won't find someone "more attractive," he will be fucking ecstatic with you for being ggg.
More...
I do have to say, the solution that your fear-based side proposes (brandishes threateningly?) is a little selfish because it basically threatens "or else you get nothing whatsoever. You either get to be content with enjoying my enjoyment, or you get nothing." Almost seems appropriate to add a "So there, neener-neener" to the end of it. Your fear is threatening to cut off both your proverbial noses to spite his proverbial face. The fact that you are getting so very much out of indulging his fantasy really ought to make you a little more generous, but hey, fear works like that, and I'm not saying anything you don't already know.
So: no, you aren't being actually unfair; no, you don't have to feel guilty about the practical imbalance in the current situation; yes, it is to your credit to want to correct it, even if it scares you.
You should continue to sit with those generous impulses that you mentioned (wanting him to get a shot of the same confidence); think about how much enjoyment you get from the experience and how little threat when you see it from the other side, rather than what fear whispers in your ear; think about how happy you will make him by opening up that same possibility. He won't find someone "more attractive," he will be fucking ecstatic with you for being ggg.
25
I'm in a situation quite similar to the LW. I'm a previously vanilla (but GGG) gal dating a Kinsey2 bi guy. He told me about the bi early on and his lifestyle interests later (we were monogamous from the start - his idea). After some time (and internal panic), I agreed to try an MFM with him. He wanted to express his bi side, wanted that to be with me, and was convinced I would love it -- I'm very orgasmic and almost constantly hungry now that I've hit 40 and have recovered from a difficult divorce. I had never thought of such a thing, was pretty freaked out by the suggestion, but eventually agreed to try. After a few awkward encounters and some minor drama on my end, we started having a lot of fun together with it. The shared energy can be really incredible, and it fosters a real closeness between us. It's crazy fun...
Next, he starts telling me about his hotwife/cuckolding fantasies and how he loved watching me fuck and that he'd love it if I would be comfortable playing alone (and then telling him about it). That I didn't like. The shared experience was the appeal. If I wanted more sex, I wanted it with him. I didn't desire a substitute. Said no, put that aside for many months. Since then, I've started to play alone with two of the guys that we originally met for MFMs. I'm enjoying that, and my bf just LOVES it when I play. There is definitely a sperm-competition psychology that comes into play for him, and a tone of submissiveness. If I have a "date", he'll put out wine, light candles, set out condoms. It's kind of funny!
Now he's looking at cuckold porn, a bit more extreme. I may indulge that on a rare occasion (if we find an interesting bi dom guy), but I'm not interested in moving our relationship in that direction. I feel that kind of roleplay (typically centered on a perceived inferiority) could affect my attraction and respect for my bf if it becomes a significant part of our sex life.
So we're doing all of this. I'm trying these nutty things. BF is overjoyed. Our sex is beyond amazing. But other people in the lifestyle ask probing questions, and clearly think it's unfair that I can fuck other guys while he does not have a pass to do other women. Sure, my bf would enjoy an FMF sometime, but no pressure and only if I were really into it. He loves what we are doing, and is cool with my boundaries. We go to swinger parties, but don't swap. I've pulled a gal over to help me go down on him (he was on cloud 9), but that's the extent of it. I have some minor bi leanings, so maybe I'll open up further at some point. And maybe not. And if not, he's still getting a pretty awesome experience...
More...
Next, he starts telling me about his hotwife/cuckolding fantasies and how he loved watching me fuck and that he'd love it if I would be comfortable playing alone (and then telling him about it). That I didn't like. The shared experience was the appeal. If I wanted more sex, I wanted it with him. I didn't desire a substitute. Said no, put that aside for many months. Since then, I've started to play alone with two of the guys that we originally met for MFMs. I'm enjoying that, and my bf just LOVES it when I play. There is definitely a sperm-competition psychology that comes into play for him, and a tone of submissiveness. If I have a "date", he'll put out wine, light candles, set out condoms. It's kind of funny!
Now he's looking at cuckold porn, a bit more extreme. I may indulge that on a rare occasion (if we find an interesting bi dom guy), but I'm not interested in moving our relationship in that direction. I feel that kind of roleplay (typically centered on a perceived inferiority) could affect my attraction and respect for my bf if it becomes a significant part of our sex life.
So we're doing all of this. I'm trying these nutty things. BF is overjoyed. Our sex is beyond amazing. But other people in the lifestyle ask probing questions, and clearly think it's unfair that I can fuck other guys while he does not have a pass to do other women. Sure, my bf would enjoy an FMF sometime, but no pressure and only if I were really into it. He loves what we are doing, and is cool with my boundaries. We go to swinger parties, but don't swap. I've pulled a gal over to help me go down on him (he was on cloud 9), but that's the extent of it. I have some minor bi leanings, so maybe I'll open up further at some point. And maybe not. And if not, he's still getting a pretty awesome experience...
26
I still don't know whether hubby wants to play or not...???
Other than that, I thought Dan was spot on.
Other than that, I thought Dan was spot on.
27
I don't say this often enough, mainly because it is more engaging as a commenter to find areas where I either disagree with the answer or where I can contribute more but:
Dan, that was a darn fine answer.
Dan, that was a darn fine answer.
29
What struck me in her letter is that she feels conflicted about the freedom imbalance (she can sleep with other men, he can't sleep with other men) and thinks this is unfair for him, but she never seems to report whether or not he also thinks this is unfair. Even when Dan asked her directly: is your husband happy with this, or does he also wish he were allowed to sleep with other women? -- she again answered that she felt the situation was unfair. Apparently regardless of what his husband's opinion on the matter was -- which up until now I haven't seen.
Isn't that interesting? Her conscience hurts, because she thinks she is getting an unfair advantage. She therefore thinks her husband should be suffering -- because anyone who is the victim of another person's unfair advantage must automatically be suffering. Right?
Furthermore, she thinks, I've discovered how good masculine attention was for my self-esteem; so feminine attention would also be good for his self-esteem; and if I'm against him having it when he's for me having it, well, then I'm being bad to him, I'm harming him. Right?
And apparently she doesn't ask him. Or, if she does, she doesn't believe his answer. I frankly still don't see in any of the letters what exactly the husband's opinion is. If he agrees -- if he says he also would like to sleep with other women -- then she does have a problem to solve. But what if he doesn't? What if he's OK with the situation as it is?
She keeps being afraid that his fantasy is -- deliberately or not, conscioiusly or not -- some way of getting to have a 'negotiation argument': someday maybe he'll say "you've had all these men, why can't I have some women?" And if this is the case, indeed she has a problem. But is it? And what if the husband just wants to enjoy his cuckold situation?
To HOTWIFE, I would simply say: there are men who would love to be in your husband's situation. Hell, I am one of them: I would love my wife to sleep around with as many men as she wanted, while I remain entirely faithful; that's the main reason why I know there are such men. Now, is your husband like that? Is he happy with you having the freedom to sleep with other men, while he doesn't have it? Does this imbalance please him, as it would please me? If it does, then... then you simply don't have a problem. Then everything is OK, and you guys are simply having a wonderful, successful marriage.
Now, if that's not the case... then you have to talk to him about boundaries, what he wants, what you want, and how to get everybody satisfied.
But one think I think you shouldn't do is make assumptions and then act on these assumptions without checking them. What exactly does your husband think about this situation? How happy is he with it? You can't "assume" -- you have to ask.
More...
Isn't that interesting? Her conscience hurts, because she thinks she is getting an unfair advantage. She therefore thinks her husband should be suffering -- because anyone who is the victim of another person's unfair advantage must automatically be suffering. Right?
Furthermore, she thinks, I've discovered how good masculine attention was for my self-esteem; so feminine attention would also be good for his self-esteem; and if I'm against him having it when he's for me having it, well, then I'm being bad to him, I'm harming him. Right?
And apparently she doesn't ask him. Or, if she does, she doesn't believe his answer. I frankly still don't see in any of the letters what exactly the husband's opinion is. If he agrees -- if he says he also would like to sleep with other women -- then she does have a problem to solve. But what if he doesn't? What if he's OK with the situation as it is?
She keeps being afraid that his fantasy is -- deliberately or not, conscioiusly or not -- some way of getting to have a 'negotiation argument': someday maybe he'll say "you've had all these men, why can't I have some women?" And if this is the case, indeed she has a problem. But is it? And what if the husband just wants to enjoy his cuckold situation?
To HOTWIFE, I would simply say: there are men who would love to be in your husband's situation. Hell, I am one of them: I would love my wife to sleep around with as many men as she wanted, while I remain entirely faithful; that's the main reason why I know there are such men. Now, is your husband like that? Is he happy with you having the freedom to sleep with other men, while he doesn't have it? Does this imbalance please him, as it would please me? If it does, then... then you simply don't have a problem. Then everything is OK, and you guys are simply having a wonderful, successful marriage.
Now, if that's not the case... then you have to talk to him about boundaries, what he wants, what you want, and how to get everybody satisfied.
But one think I think you shouldn't do is make assumptions and then act on these assumptions without checking them. What exactly does your husband think about this situation? How happy is he with it? You can't "assume" -- you have to ask.
31
For me, the big thing against inviting in another woman as opposed to another man is how attractive I feel. Like the writer I never felt particularly attractive when I was younger though I recognise looking back that I was much better than I thought.. I would say I'm reasonably pretty but by no means a stunner (tho my BF seems to think so), but I do have an hourglass figure and naturally large breasts so I know I can attract men on that basis alone so I would feel happy with a 2nd man (plus, I know my way round a man as it were ;0) ). I have some bi tendancies and have explored them a bit in the past but, I know how judgemental women can be with other women and the idea of being naked with another woman and seeing her with my BF if I don't feel I measure up to her makes me feel extremely insecure which is the opposite of sexy.. :0( plus, if the other women is single I can't help worrying that BF may enjoy her more than me.. (unlikely, we've had a rocky road and broken up and got back together several times and neither of us has ever found anyone else we're as sexually compatible or attracted to, but emotions like jealousy aren't exactly logical..) The compromise for us (if we can find someone I might feel comfortable with, which is becoming more likely as I've been working on my diet and fitness and should hit my ideal weight in the next 2 months) might be another couple, so neither of us needs to be concerned about whether the 3rd might want more than a bit of fun in the bedroom :0)
32
Good advice from Dan. I like this LW! She is GGG.
But I also think maybe she should just bite the bullet, stop agonizing, and do it once, maintaining complete control over every aspect of the encounter. If her fears are realized, she tried. If not, more fun times.
Calm down, beautiful woman. This won't kill your relationship. It's just a thing. You're okay to not do/permit it without eating yourself up with guilt. But since it is obviously bothering you, give it a go once, with you in charge. You will actually feel better either way it turns out.
or you could just invite me over to play with you both. just sayin'
But I also think maybe she should just bite the bullet, stop agonizing, and do it once, maintaining complete control over every aspect of the encounter. If her fears are realized, she tried. If not, more fun times.
Calm down, beautiful woman. This won't kill your relationship. It's just a thing. You're okay to not do/permit it without eating yourself up with guilt. But since it is obviously bothering you, give it a go once, with you in charge. You will actually feel better either way it turns out.
or you could just invite me over to play with you both. just sayin'
33
I'm still waiting to hear back from @17 about why one should run?
I have been involved with way to many insecure women, and I certainly get why that's a tough situation. However, "run" is pretty strong right off the bat. I'm a little older than @17's handle suggests he is, but I'm involved with someone over a decade younger who may well never have felt sexy or attractive before. I've also been known to be oblivious...so what might I be missing?
I have been involved with way to many insecure women, and I certainly get why that's a tough situation. However, "run" is pretty strong right off the bat. I'm a little older than @17's handle suggests he is, but I'm involved with someone over a decade younger who may well never have felt sexy or attractive before. I've also been known to be oblivious...so what might I be missing?
34
HOTWIFE is the acronym she's taken, huh? And the idea of the husband having equal permission to sleep with other women spooks her? Am I a douchebag for asserting that she's got some insecurity to deal with?
35
@30 Mr. J That is a highly innovative solution! And I like the whole being recorded to watch later thing, so it's a win all the way around!
36
Uh, why hasn't it occurred to anyone that this woman's husband is probably gay and gets his jollies off looking at the man rather than his wife when the two of them are having sex? This "arrangement" is simply his way of getting his rocks off within the confines of monogamous hetero marriage. I'm surprised Dan didn't bring this up. I mean, the guy has already admitted to having sex with another man. There aren't too many gaps to be filled in here. The man is gay. Period.
37
You know, when my husband told me he was poly, I was intensely jealous and scared and insecure. The thought of him fucking another woman made my stomach turn. He persisted, and I gave him permission to kiss other women, and I was still intensely jealous, scared, and insecure, even though I knew exactly what was going on, and even saw most of what was going on. We had a threeway (with a woman who could definitely be considered hotter than me--she's thinner by a lot, but I think I've got a better face), and I actually watched him fuck someone else, and oh my god it was the hottest thing I've ever seen in my life! I still get a little jealous from time to time, but I totally want to do it again.
So, my advice to the LW is, if he really wants it, get everyone involved a little drunk and have a threeway (if you want to participate), or just watch the two of them (if you don't). You may be surprised at how much you like it.
So, my advice to the LW is, if he really wants it, get everyone involved a little drunk and have a threeway (if you want to participate), or just watch the two of them (if you don't). You may be surprised at how much you like it.
38
@36 So you're suggesting that every single man with a cuckold fetish is gay? Please. It is, like Dan says of "chicks with dicks" porn, an exclusively het male desire.
39
@38: I'd be more convinced this guy is NOT gay if he wanted his wife to have sex with another woman.
40
@tniel, you have a point when you note that the LW's husband did have fun playing one-on-one with their male friend, which is usually not part of the het male cuckold fetish.
But it makes a lot more sense to call him 'bi,' not gay, since he has spent ten years having fun sex with his wife, too.
I think you're wrong @38, though, when you say that straight men only want to see women with other women. That's certainly a very common fetish, but many straight men would rather see their wives fucking other men.
But it makes a lot more sense to call him 'bi,' not gay, since he has spent ten years having fun sex with his wife, too.
I think you're wrong @38, though, when you say that straight men only want to see women with other women. That's certainly a very common fetish, but many straight men would rather see their wives fucking other men.
42
@39, I'm a straight guy (no real interest in sex with guys thus far), and I'd love to see my wife having sex with other men. Cuckold fetishes are usually not about being gay or bi, but about other kinds of mind play. (To me, about the aura of irresistible sexuality associated with the idea of an unfaithful wife.)
43
I feel like it wouldn't bother me if I had a bf or husband that got happy ending massages- it really is just a physical release. I also have come to the conclusion that I don't have a problem with a potential mate visiting a domme (I've roleplayed as a domme and it takes a lot of mental energy. Letting him see a pro would be one less thing on my to-do list and then he could come home nice and horny for me to take advantage of). Lapdances on occasion have always been ok in my book, as my best friend once auditioned to be a stripper and it was a job I thought about doing myself. Maybe HOTWIFE could come up with a compromise that didn't give him full permission, but let him have some extracurricular playtime? Over time she might feel secure enough to let him have full priveleges when she realizes that she's still his first priority. Even if she doesn't want him to do everything she can do- at least he would have some of the priveleges she has and wouldn't feel completely deprived.
45
@34, "hotwife" (or "hotwifing") is a common name for the husband's fetish: guys who like to watch their wives fuck other men. It's often used in contrast to "cuckolding," which generally carries a connotation of humiliation or submission on the part of the husband.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.ph…
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.ph…
47
LW: Before we were married, my husband told me that he wanted to watch me with other men. After several years of discussions about boundaries and rules, I agreed, and I've since played with a few other men, both alone and with my husband. We've both thoroughly enjoyed our play! The problem is that, inevitably, the idea of him playing with another woman, or of both of us with a couple, will come up, and for me it's the opposite of sexy. I panic at the idea of him with another woman. I've always been up front about the rules: he is not allowed to play. I know: "not equal," but I'm more than happy to give up my own freedom if he feels that it's unfair.
Actually, it's not "not equal." If you were the one who wanted to fuck other men but didn't allow your husband to fuck other women, then that wouldn't be equal. But that's not the case. It's your husband who wants you to fuck other men.
If you wanted him to fuck other women and he refused, that wouldn't be equal.
Actually, it's not "not equal." If you were the one who wanted to fuck other men but didn't allow your husband to fuck other women, then that wouldn't be equal. But that's not the case. It's your husband who wants you to fuck other men.
If you wanted him to fuck other women and he refused, that wouldn't be equal.
51
@33: Sorry, I'm on frequently, but not every day. And also to @19, Erica, who has always had pretty sage advice...
My experience (I'm 40 now, going on 41) is that women who have never really felt attractive or sexy invariably have a number of insecurity issues (hang-ups/neuroses), as the LW admits to. I would argue that if a woman has strong feelings of insecurity, then that would more or less be a deal breaker...as destructive to a relationship as the jealousy and abusiveness you see in a lot of asshole men.
Erica is phenomenal (and her husband is quite lucky to have kept her after his screw ups), but she is quite out of the norm with respect to being GGG.
Best to stay away from both insecure and controlling people (and the LW sounds like both), as there are plenty of other fish in the sea.
My experience (I'm 40 now, going on 41) is that women who have never really felt attractive or sexy invariably have a number of insecurity issues (hang-ups/neuroses), as the LW admits to. I would argue that if a woman has strong feelings of insecurity, then that would more or less be a deal breaker...as destructive to a relationship as the jealousy and abusiveness you see in a lot of asshole men.
Erica is phenomenal (and her husband is quite lucky to have kept her after his screw ups), but she is quite out of the norm with respect to being GGG.
Best to stay away from both insecure and controlling people (and the LW sounds like both), as there are plenty of other fish in the sea.
52
@51 I think most people have some insecurities and neuroses. You don't have any?
I'll agree that some people are so insecure they're no fun to date. But most people (men & women) are able to manage their insecurities and even outgrow them over time.
I'll agree that some people are so insecure they're no fun to date. But most people (men & women) are able to manage their insecurities and even outgrow them over time.
53
I agree it would be best to stay away from insecure and controlling people. If you've been in my world, seen the people I have worked with then you understand that the likelyhood of crossing paths with someone who has insecurites is more common than you think. Most of us are wounded. Thankfully most of us find ways to cope and overcome some of those insecurities in time. We can be beautifully resilient. I'm glad the LW found the eyes to see her own beauty. (I couldn't figure out if her husband wants to sleep with other women, though. So she could be trying to inoculate against her own worries by entertaining thoughts of his asking.)
These aren't exactly on topic, but I've found that this is often the reason behind those insecurities. Not always though.
http://www.americanbar.org/groups/domest…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3s2hu9Zon…
Take care.
These aren't exactly on topic, but I've found that this is often the reason behind those insecurities. Not always though.
http://www.americanbar.org/groups/domest…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3s2hu9Zon…
Take care.
55
This letter made me feel all tingly in a very dirty way. That the guy is less narrow than straight makes me happy for human potential.
56
@54,
Thank you, Erica. As you know, sometimes things happen that are not of our own choosing. The power lies in what we choose to do with it. I've aspired to allow those experiences to inspire compassion within me and by assisting with DV counseling for other women and their families. I'd like to think there is beauty if one looks for it in dark places. Resilience is beautiful and many of you Sloggers are inspiring people.
Take care.
Thank you, Erica. As you know, sometimes things happen that are not of our own choosing. The power lies in what we choose to do with it. I've aspired to allow those experiences to inspire compassion within me and by assisting with DV counseling for other women and their families. I'd like to think there is beauty if one looks for it in dark places. Resilience is beautiful and many of you Sloggers are inspiring people.
Take care.
57
My husband and I have a similar situation. I like the idea of him with other women, whether or not I'm watching. He's not emotionally comfortable with the opposite. Therefore, for now, I do not play outside the marriage and he does (and yes, there are guidelines to which we have both agreed). I don't see it as unequal because I can't expect him to feel a certain way if he actually doesn't feel that way and I'm not going to force it. I want his honesty more than I want for everything to be totally 50/50. Because I love him I do not guilt him or expect him to be anything other than exactly who he is AT THIS MOMENT. He may change his mind later or he may not. It doesn't matter to me because my primary commitment is to him and I plan to honor it. I wash more dishes than he does but he works more hours than I do. I iron for him but he goes to the grocery store for me. I see this the same way. I'm not going to nag about the dishes or ironing because this is a conscious partnership and not everything can be 50/50 but you do it anyway because you love the person and want the best for them and for your relationship.
58
@56, Kim, I agree entirely.
Maybe you know Neal Stephenson's SF novel The Diamond Age? In it, a young girl who was a victim of domestic violence and neglect of various kinds ends up finding a way out (but not, alas! her brother, who sacrificed himself for her). Part of it involved a dialogue with a mentor-like figure, who told her something like: "You've had sufficiently many horrible experiences to justify you screwing up your life completely. But you can't allow this to happen. Which is why you should think about what happened to you, understand it, put it in perspective. Make it a part of you, rather than you becoming a part of it."
So much depends on how one reacts to one's bad experiences. I feel happy when I see someone reacting as well as you are.
Maybe you know Neal Stephenson's SF novel The Diamond Age? In it, a young girl who was a victim of domestic violence and neglect of various kinds ends up finding a way out (but not, alas! her brother, who sacrificed himself for her). Part of it involved a dialogue with a mentor-like figure, who told her something like: "You've had sufficiently many horrible experiences to justify you screwing up your life completely. But you can't allow this to happen. Which is why you should think about what happened to you, understand it, put it in perspective. Make it a part of you, rather than you becoming a part of it."
So much depends on how one reacts to one's bad experiences. I feel happy when I see someone reacting as well as you are.
59
@57, any agreement to which both parties truly agree and feel happy about is a good agreement. You don't have to follow the model of some other couple, or this or that philosophy. Life is not about everything being 50/50, life is about one's growth and finding one's path to happiness.
If you're happy with the arrangement you have with your husband, and if he is happy too, then I'm happy for both of you. Even if my personal choices would be different. (I'm more into my wife being with other men than I would be into me being with other women, for instance.)
If you're happy with the arrangement you have with your husband, and if he is happy too, then I'm happy for both of you. Even if my personal choices would be different. (I'm more into my wife being with other men than I would be into me being with other women, for instance.)
62
57/tinytown: My husband and I have a similar situation. I like the idea of him with other women, whether or not I'm watching. He's not emotionally comfortable with the opposite. Therefore, for now, I do not play outside the marriage and he does (and yes, there are guidelines to which we have both agreed).
That's very interesting. I imagine there aren't many women like you, ones who get turned on by their husband being with another woman, yet are okay with not being with another man.
That's very interesting. I imagine there aren't many women like you, ones who get turned on by their husband being with another woman, yet are okay with not being with another man.
63
I think that in a world full of selfish assholes who think only of themselves (and then write in here to have Dan or the readers validate their poor conduct) I think the LW deserves a very great deal of credit for her efforts and kindness.
D
D
64
@63(seeker), I don't disagree. Which is why I think Dan was very gentle with her, and I myself hope I was. She's not being an asshole; quite the opposite. But, all in all, she's not right either; there's some miscommunication (or lack of communication) going on there. Which is what needs to be (gently) pointed out.
65
#17 - you describe most of the women in the world from what I can gather.
I think the idea of an evolving turn on is not visited here but should be. Can this guy only have the fantasy established in the prenuptial agreement or is he allowed to develop a new one? I think her side of guilt ought to move toward the freedom a little faster.
I think the idea of an evolving turn on is not visited here but should be. Can this guy only have the fantasy established in the prenuptial agreement or is he allowed to develop a new one? I think her side of guilt ought to move toward the freedom a little faster.
66
ankylosaur, I wasn't taking issue with anything that anybody said in the thread. I couldn't, given that I didn't read the thread, just the letter. I was just so pleased to see somebody being kind and considerate and rational that I thought she deserved a shout-out for it. Compare her to the LW in the open-relationship-year thread some days ago and you really see a difference in character, decency and expectations.
I'm just of the opinion that there are so few of us that handle things decently and correctly (and correctly is another matter which I will leave here to Dan and others) that it deserves a positive shout-out.
I'm just of the opinion that there are so few of us that handle things decently and correctly (and correctly is another matter which I will leave here to Dan and others) that it deserves a positive shout-out.
67
Seeker, fair enough. Anyone who is really concerned with his partner's feelings, to the point of writing to Dan because s/he fears said feelings might be hurt, does deserve points in the empathy department.
68
Suggestion on adding other women (should you decide to go that route): pick the woman yourself. Show her photos of your husband and vice-versa, but don't allow them to meet beforehand. Keep it as anonymous as possible. This way, the idea that he will somehow get emotionally involved is minimized. Also, videotape the whole thing and post it here :)
69
Dear ankylosaur, Mr. J, and nocutename,
Thank you for the kind words. And, no I haven't read that book, ankylosaur. Perhaps I should seek it out when I'm finished with Augusten Burroughs' "Dry"?
Take care.
Thank you for the kind words. And, no I haven't read that book, ankylosaur. Perhaps I should seek it out when I'm finished with Augusten Burroughs' "Dry"?
Take care.
70
@65: "Can this guy only have the fantasy established in the prenuptial agreement or is he allowed to develop a new one?"
That's what I was thinking throughout the letter and comments.
That's what I was thinking throughout the letter and comments.
71
62: "I imagine there aren't many women like you, ones who get turned on by their husband being with another woman, yet are okay with not being with another man.
Not sure about the "turned on" part, but typically women sharing higher-status men has been the default in history, IIRC.
Not sure about the "turned on" part, but typically women sharing higher-status men has been the default in history, IIRC.
72
I think HOTWIFE has nothing to worry about...her husband is probably just fine messing around with other guys. I wonder how much HOTWIFE and her husband are having sex alone together. Has anyone ever thought of the fact that he may be still in the closet and this may not have been the first time he's been with another guy the time he was with their friend?
Since after all this time he's never asked her for another woman, he probably isn't interested in it. In giving her this much liberty, I'm pretty sure if he wanted it, he would have asked and brought up all the freedom he's given her as collateral.
Either way this goes, it could be a win-win for all involved. Each get to mess around in the way they seem to be currently choosing and can still file their taxes together to get the best tax benefits...which could be what this marriage is about unbeknownst to HOTWIFE! :)
Since after all this time he's never asked her for another woman, he probably isn't interested in it. In giving her this much liberty, I'm pretty sure if he wanted it, he would have asked and brought up all the freedom he's given her as collateral.
Either way this goes, it could be a win-win for all involved. Each get to mess around in the way they seem to be currently choosing and can still file their taxes together to get the best tax benefits...which could be what this marriage is about unbeknownst to HOTWIFE! :)
73
This isn't about jealousy or sex. This is about self esteem. It is about the insecurity of worrying that HOTWIFE's husband will find a "better" female sex partner. HOTWIFE, you are awesome, you rock his world, there is NO ONE to replace you. Having new partners has made you feel more self confident, do the next level of self-work to work on your own insecurities and you will not only NOT MIND sharing your husband this way, you will have the ability to fully appreciate his joy. I highly recommend Tristan Taromino's book Opening Up; she's got some great strategies for rethinking jealousy.
74
@69 (Kim in Portland), Stephenson is a bit pretentious in his writing, and his style leaves a not totally agreeable taste in the mouth, I must admit. But I did like The Diamond Age. (Not the ending, but the idea and the development.)
75
My own experience mirrors #73's comments. When I started expressing my desire to play with other women, my wife was understandably reluctant to give me her permission. As we talked it through, I convinced her that no, I am not looking for a replacement. She is the most important person in my life and our relationship is the most important thing in my life. Now that I've been having occasional affairs, my sex life with my wife is better than ever, and she knows how much extra happiness and contentment I'm getting from a little playing around. She's got a much happier husband and I adore her all the more for her GGG attitude.
76
@Centaur, thanks for sharing your wonderful story. Have you talked with her about what might spice up her life, the way affairs have spiced up yours? Does she feel your marital sex is hotter now? Or is there something else she might want? Might be worth asking, so that you're both earning your GGG card.
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