Slog
News & ArtsSunday, February 19, 2012
Religion Slog Bible Study: Exodus 32:24-29
Posted by Goldy on Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 7:00 AM
Exodus 32:24-29
Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies. So he stood at the entrance to the camp and said, "Whoever is for the LORD, come to me." And all the Levites rallied to him.Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.' " The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. Then Moses said, "You have been set apart to the LORD today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day."
Discuss.
7
Replace Moses with Santorum, Aaron with George W. Bush and Levites with Tea Partiers and I think we've got us the 2012 GOP Convention!
8
Maybe the Republican party should try of this olde timey house cleaning.
THEY certianly have become a laughingstock to their enemies......
THEY certianly have become a laughingstock to their enemies......
10
Is this the same"Thou Shalt not..." dude who was always telling people what "God" wants? Psychopath mutherfucking mass murderer! No wonder religion is so fucked up.
11
Religion has long, sad history of having charismatic psychopaths as leaders, using people's willingness to blindly follow to gain power.
15
Cognitive dissonance: on this very page, whereupon I type into the magic comment box, are two ads: "Earn a Bible Degree" and "Christian & Single? Find God's Match For You" - both with peachy keen wholesome smiling photos.
Apparently they couldn't find the factually accurate bloodstained slides depicting God's chainsaw massacre style "calling" of his "people."
Apparently they couldn't find the factually accurate bloodstained slides depicting God's chainsaw massacre style "calling" of his "people."
17
Remember kids, every word of the bible is sacred! That is why we should order our society according to it's teachings and "morals". I'm feeling generous today, so I'll give my brother and friend AND neighbor a five minute head start before I come after them with my sword.
Seriously. Assume the bible is true for a moment. I understand why you would fear God, but why would you love and worship him? The brave and ethical and moral and brave thing to do would be to tell him to fuck off.
Seriously. Assume the bible is true for a moment. I understand why you would fear God, but why would you love and worship him? The brave and ethical and moral and brave thing to do would be to tell him to fuck off.
20
Aw, but that's that Ole-Testyment stuff. Less what the NEW Testyment's gots to say:
21Another of the disciples said to him, "Lord, let me first go and bury my father."
22But Jesus said to him, "Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead." (Matt. 8:21-22)
35For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;
36and a man's foes will be those of his own household.
37He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; (Matt. 10:35-37; Luke 12:51-53)
26"If any one comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26)
29And every one who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name's sake, will receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.
30But many that are first will be last, and the last first. (Matt. 19:29-30)
Well dang. Guess I'd better kill my father, then.
4For God commanded, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him surely die.' (Matt. 15:4)
Oh, I guess I gotta kill him nicely. Wait, "Thou shall not kill"? I'm confused?
21Another of the disciples said to him, "Lord, let me first go and bury my father."
22But Jesus said to him, "Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead." (Matt. 8:21-22)
35For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;
36and a man's foes will be those of his own household.
37He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; (Matt. 10:35-37; Luke 12:51-53)
26"If any one comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26)
29And every one who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name's sake, will receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.
30But many that are first will be last, and the last first. (Matt. 19:29-30)
Well dang. Guess I'd better kill my father, then.
4For God commanded, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him surely die.' (Matt. 15:4)
Oh, I guess I gotta kill him nicely. Wait, "Thou shall not kill"? I'm confused?
21
There was an episcopalian priest at a church that my grandparents went to who when ask/pointed out by my father about such events in the bible he said that that was the old god.
22
Sounds sorta like the Gospel of Jim Jones.... Is Flavour Aide a good substitute for a sword or not??
25
None of our usual biblical apologists with their rationalizations/explanations/interpretations today? How it's actually a metaphor for whateverthefuck? Ah, how sad.
Having his people kill each other so they can regain the respect of their enemies? What fucked up, petty, evil things this God supposedly wants.
Having his people kill each other so they can regain the respect of their enemies? What fucked up, petty, evil things this God supposedly wants.
27
By the way, I recall an English prof telling my class once that these olde timey texts did a bit of exaggeration with the numbers, so it may well have been couple of dozen killed rather than 3K.
28
Christian apologists for this atrocity try to dodge the issue by claiming that there were 2 to 3 million Jews in the Exodus, so a mere 3000 isn't so bad. Numbers aside, it became the precedent for large-scale slaughter of heretics throughout Jewish and Christian history. It should also be noted that Moses was a Levite so this was essentially a "God Father" style hit on the opposition; they literally silenced all dissent with a campaign of terror. Advocates of Biblical Law should be labled terror organizations.
29
@21:
Yeah, so did Yahweh take a planet-sized Prozac sometime between the events of the Old & New Testaments? Because the god Yeshua describes in the latter bears absolutely no resemblance whatsoever to Moses' Lord as depicted in the former, which would lead the less credulous to conclude that: either Yahweh isn't as perfect as his followers claim, or; they're talking about two completely different entities.
How do Christians explain this glaringly obvious discrepancy?
@25:
If I was fighting an army led by a murderous psychopath with enough charisma to convince a small faction of his followers to butcher their own kin as a show of strength, you can bet your shekels I'd "respect" that enemy.
But "respect" in this context doesn't equal "like" to be sure, 'cause that be one crazy-assed somebitch...
Yeah, so did Yahweh take a planet-sized Prozac sometime between the events of the Old & New Testaments? Because the god Yeshua describes in the latter bears absolutely no resemblance whatsoever to Moses' Lord as depicted in the former, which would lead the less credulous to conclude that: either Yahweh isn't as perfect as his followers claim, or; they're talking about two completely different entities.
How do Christians explain this glaringly obvious discrepancy?
@25:
If I was fighting an army led by a murderous psychopath with enough charisma to convince a small faction of his followers to butcher their own kin as a show of strength, you can bet your shekels I'd "respect" that enemy.
But "respect" in this context doesn't equal "like" to be sure, 'cause that be one crazy-assed somebitch...
31
I think you all are way too intelligent to see things so black and white. I get that you hate religion. So don't choose to join one. That you hate Christians. But your inability to see that there is no "one" correct view point when it comes to a pieces of ancient literature is just ignorant sounding. You sound as fanatical and bigoted as Seattlebues does on his rants, in my opinion. You're right there are a bunch of individuals who have deluded themselves into ignoring history, archeology, etc. They have deluded themselves into believing that stories written over a ~1200 year period more than ~2000 years ago, full of copycat versions of older ancient tails, is relevant, united, cohesive, and deserving of their cherry picked allegiance. Their emotional attachment allows them to ignore contravening facts. Pity them their willingness to expend such a tremendous amount of intellectual and emotional energy. So what is your emotional attachment that allows you to disregard all the evidence you have that there is not "one" correct way to interpret these pieces of literature written in transcribed from ancient languages from cultures that relied on oral traditions? You all are too smart. And you have excellent ethical compasses within you (I hope!). So why do you fall into the trap that fundamentalist (a recent interpretive tradition from around the '20s) have the "one" correct interpretation? And I mean other than patting yourselves on the back and giving yourself justification to make fun of others which threads historically become or venting your frustrations. Certainly some of you have suffered personally and are justified in your anger. And, I'm sorry for the abuse you have suffered and still may be suffering. You must know that these comments won't educate a fundy. But you could gain knowledge to decimate a fundy's claim from those of us who actually study the Bible as a subject not to apologize for or defend, but as fascinating pieces of literature full of ancient traditions, outmoded worldviews, and the context of social cultures long departed. It can be studied for how it addresses human issues that are still present in 2012: guilt, failure, acceptance, fear of death, wholeness, etc. To do that you have to go beyond the often times poorly translated literal words to see the more existential concepts. Anyway, enjoy your Sunday and please feel free to shove my "moronic" $0.02 into the dustbin.
More...
33
Guys, this excerpt is saying that even if idolaters are friends or relatives, they are still enemies. It's not saying that infighting is good, but rather that even bloodshed among a people is preferable to allowing idolatrous ideas to take root. The people Moses had killed were people who had refused to turn away from the golden calf.
Barbaric by today's standards? Pretty much so. But the Bible isn't recommending wholesale fratricide or anything.
@31: 100% agree.
@32: http://www.freddiew.com/wp-content/uploa…
Barbaric by today's standards? Pretty much so. But the Bible isn't recommending wholesale fratricide or anything.
@31: 100% agree.
@32: http://www.freddiew.com/wp-content/uploa…
36
@31: Kim, I don't hate Christians, I hate Christianity. And please let me explain why the tired line "don't like religion? Well just don't join one then" totally misses my point every time. Religion isn't like a type of food or movie that if you don't like you can just avoid. Women can't avoid the religiously motivated current Republican attack on women's health rights just because they don't agree with it. People accused of being witches in Africa can't avoid being murdered just because they know they aren't actually witches. Religion is not something you can just choose to avoid on this planet, its tentacles are everywhere. Religion is an objectively negative and harmful force in human societies, because it strives to have people make decisions based on lies and assumptions that can't be verified, full stop. No need to mention the countless atrocities commited because of religion, that right there should be enough for any sensible person to fear religious influence in our society. I am not fine to ignore rabid religious influence over our society, just as I am not fine to ignore a house on fire.
To your point that many of us refuse to read the bible as metaphor and instead take it at face value, I can look at the bible just like Grimm's fairytales, and what do I see? Whelp, just like the non-Disney versions of those tales, the bible is full of ghastly stories and even as metaphor I find the bible utterly repugnant. As vemonlash pointed out, the moral of this passage appears to be that it's perfectly okay to us violence to silence scary ideas. A book that preaches such a message disgusts me.
To your point that many of us refuse to read the bible as metaphor and instead take it at face value, I can look at the bible just like Grimm's fairytales, and what do I see? Whelp, just like the non-Disney versions of those tales, the bible is full of ghastly stories and even as metaphor I find the bible utterly repugnant. As vemonlash pointed out, the moral of this passage appears to be that it's perfectly okay to us violence to silence scary ideas. A book that preaches such a message disgusts me.
37
Why doesn't Kim write for The Slog? She's articulate and a pleasure to read. I have been known to look specifically for her posts in comment threads because I know she'll have a thoughtful and interesting comment.
38
@ 31, following up on @ 38, if you know these threads are going to upset you, then you can avoid reading them. It IS a lot easier to do than it is for the non-religious to avoid religion.
Also, the kinds of fundies who troll sites like this aren't interested in education or discussion. In my experience, most deeply religious but unspiritual people aren't looking for education, just for opportunities to convert. (One of the best ways to handle a proselytizer is to start telling them about your own religion - I usually claim to be a Taoist on those occasions. Watch their eyes as they realize you're one of those irredeemable hellbound heathens.) The point is, you can't have a discussion with people like that. You're welcome to try - you're more likely to get somewhere with them, but I'd bet you your $0.02 that even you fail to inspire real reflection with most of them. Minds are like doors, as the old cliche goes.
Also, the kinds of fundies who troll sites like this aren't interested in education or discussion. In my experience, most deeply religious but unspiritual people aren't looking for education, just for opportunities to convert. (One of the best ways to handle a proselytizer is to start telling them about your own religion - I usually claim to be a Taoist on those occasions. Watch their eyes as they realize you're one of those irredeemable hellbound heathens.) The point is, you can't have a discussion with people like that. You're welcome to try - you're more likely to get somewhere with them, but I'd bet you your $0.02 that even you fail to inspire real reflection with most of them. Minds are like doors, as the old cliche goes.
39
@36: Outercow,
You do need to have intelligent and thoughtful answers. Not for yourself, but for that sweet little girl that you want her to grow up into a fine and critical thinking woman. You may need to point her to things she can study herself. Tell her why you and her parents have different opinions. Or why you don't fear things. And the best way is to do it with compassion. People usually get their back up when you counter their belief system no matter how kindly you do it, but you will have more success if you have citable evidence to support your position outside yourself. The evidence can be the enemy. It can be the nagging question. Not you. Does that make sense?
I don't care for religion either. I have not found the imagination to see this world being rid of it, though. Too many people wish for power. Too many people fear death and struggle with guilt. So I study. And, I guess I hope that education can sever some of its power, so that I can tease a position in a debate to its religious based roots and respond accordingly. So I can leave our two children with actual reasons for what I believe and don't believe, so they can study and explore and make their own decisions.
You do need to have intelligent and thoughtful answers. Not for yourself, but for that sweet little girl that you want her to grow up into a fine and critical thinking woman. You may need to point her to things she can study herself. Tell her why you and her parents have different opinions. Or why you don't fear things. And the best way is to do it with compassion. People usually get their back up when you counter their belief system no matter how kindly you do it, but you will have more success if you have citable evidence to support your position outside yourself. The evidence can be the enemy. It can be the nagging question. Not you. Does that make sense?
I don't care for religion either. I have not found the imagination to see this world being rid of it, though. Too many people wish for power. Too many people fear death and struggle with guilt. So I study. And, I guess I hope that education can sever some of its power, so that I can tease a position in a debate to its religious based roots and respond accordingly. So I can leave our two children with actual reasons for what I believe and don't believe, so they can study and explore and make their own decisions.
40
@ 38: Matt,
I'm not upset. I know people make up their own minds. I respect that. I just think it is wiser to have an educated answer then it is to say something like "religion is for the weak minded". I explain passages at times, or bring up differing translation and interpretations, not to defend or apologize, but to equip. One never knows who lurks or what the next conversation they will be having. We all should have answers as why we believe something. Perhaps I'm being a fool here and my time could be better spent elsewhere. I've been considering that as of late.
@ 37: NOP_Spinster,
Thank you.
I'm not upset. I know people make up their own minds. I respect that. I just think it is wiser to have an educated answer then it is to say something like "religion is for the weak minded". I explain passages at times, or bring up differing translation and interpretations, not to defend or apologize, but to equip. One never knows who lurks or what the next conversation they will be having. We all should have answers as why we believe something. Perhaps I'm being a fool here and my time could be better spent elsewhere. I've been considering that as of late.
@ 37: NOP_Spinster,
Thank you.
41
@31. I am so motherfucking tired. Tired. TIRED. Of fundamentalists. Of their bible. Of their non-stop tirades. Of their cruelty. Of their determination to make my family disappear, to make me disappear, to make me invisible, to condemn me to hell, to make THIS life a living hell (as if the eternal punishment just can't fucking start soon efuckingnough, to use the Bible as their Divine Permission Slip to treat me as abusively, murderously, degradingly as they can imagine. If The Divine Permission Slip calls me an abomination, who are they to disagree?
Fuck them. Every last one of them. Fuck them and the Bible they rode in on. If there is any truth in the whole fucked up antique superstitious mess, then I am too damn wounded and ANGRY to fucking care to find it. PTSD much? Yup.
You're not one of the bad ones? Fine. Leave me the fuck alone and go crusade against the fundies. They aren't ever going to listen to me. And good luck getting them to listen to YOU, since any scholarship of any sort is from the devil. Unless you went to Liberty "its true because we say it is" U.
You bet I'm angry.
Fuck them. Every last one of them. Fuck them and the Bible they rode in on. If there is any truth in the whole fucked up antique superstitious mess, then I am too damn wounded and ANGRY to fucking care to find it. PTSD much? Yup.
You're not one of the bad ones? Fine. Leave me the fuck alone and go crusade against the fundies. They aren't ever going to listen to me. And good luck getting them to listen to YOU, since any scholarship of any sort is from the devil. Unless you went to Liberty "its true because we say it is" U.
You bet I'm angry.
42
This would be no different than if there were treason in our country. If there were a group of people trying to destroy our country totally, even if they did not intend to have that result, we would deal justice harshly upon them. These people were trying to bring down the beliefs of the children of Israel, so justice was imparted. All of those killed would have been leaders of the revolt, and so they were killed. The people killed were not literally the Levi's brothers, or they would have been of the tribe of Levi.
OuterCow, you are the most depressed, pessimistic person I have ever seen on a comment thread. What is wrong with you? Are you really so Blind to all of the good that religion does in the world that you would hate all religion? Admittedly, religion is a mortal organization. Anything run by mortals will be flawed, because we are not perfect. However, even somewhat flawed organizations can do great good. For example, the Catholic Church has been under scrutiny before for the deplorable actions of a select few of it's Priest's. However, the Church as a whole does great good, helping the poor, giving water to African villages, and providing medical care to poor countries and regions. The bad side does not need to interfere with the good.
And if it really bothers you that bad, then you can get over it. I'm sure many people feel the same about the stuck up, bigoted attitude of yourself and kin.
OuterCow, you are the most depressed, pessimistic person I have ever seen on a comment thread. What is wrong with you? Are you really so Blind to all of the good that religion does in the world that you would hate all religion? Admittedly, religion is a mortal organization. Anything run by mortals will be flawed, because we are not perfect. However, even somewhat flawed organizations can do great good. For example, the Catholic Church has been under scrutiny before for the deplorable actions of a select few of it's Priest's. However, the Church as a whole does great good, helping the poor, giving water to African villages, and providing medical care to poor countries and regions. The bad side does not need to interfere with the good.
And if it really bothers you that bad, then you can get over it. I'm sure many people feel the same about the stuck up, bigoted attitude of yourself and kin.
43
@ 41: OldFiddler,
Thank you for sharing. I'm not a Christian, I was raised as one, but I am human and I hear your pain. You have been treated inhumanly. I am so very sorry. You do not deserve the cruelty, damnation, and erasure that you have been subjected to. Those who treat their fellow man as any less than human and equal are abominations. You are kinder, stronger, and more resilient than those who attack you and your family. You deserve better. Your family deserves better. I will keep working for justice and equality for all of us. Stay strong. I'm deeply sorry.
Kind regards,
k
Thank you for sharing. I'm not a Christian, I was raised as one, but I am human and I hear your pain. You have been treated inhumanly. I am so very sorry. You do not deserve the cruelty, damnation, and erasure that you have been subjected to. Those who treat their fellow man as any less than human and equal are abominations. You are kinder, stronger, and more resilient than those who attack you and your family. You deserve better. Your family deserves better. I will keep working for justice and equality for all of us. Stay strong. I'm deeply sorry.
Kind regards,
k
44
Aw, Kim. You were kind to me on SLOG once, just like @41. Don't leave SLOG; we need you.
I sure relate to Old's rage; felt that way for years. But in the end, some who hold these beliefs (Faux News watchers, etc) are loved ones, and the same is true with them for us complete heathens, NPR listeners, GLBT, etc.
Rage takes too much energy away from life and trying to be happy here.
I sure relate to Old's rage; felt that way for years. But in the end, some who hold these beliefs (Faux News watchers, etc) are loved ones, and the same is true with them for us complete heathens, NPR listeners, GLBT, etc.
Rage takes too much energy away from life and trying to be happy here.
46
Kim I heart you so much. You are always a joy to read.
Seandr I wish I could say the same about you, but your comment shows you to be as tone deaf as ever.
Seandr I wish I could say the same about you, but your comment shows you to be as tone deaf as ever.
47
@38: "One of the best ways to handle a proselytizer is to start telling them about your own religion"
Ha. Doesn't work if you're a Jew. Try it sometime and note the rabid gleam in their eye -- it's like giving them IV coke.
Ha. Doesn't work if you're a Jew. Try it sometime and note the rabid gleam in their eye -- it's like giving them IV coke.
48
Kim, you are a sweet and gentle person, so you interpret the Bible in a sweet and gentle way. (You also tend to disregard the nastier passages) The problem is, that since the Bible is a man made mythology, and a very poorly written one at that, it is easily molded to fit just about any agenda, no matter how vile, and no God is going to appear to correct them. It's only limits are the limits of human imagination, and people can imagine some very scary and evil stuff.
50
And other scripture recounts that Olórin of the Istari, bearer of Narya, known to the common folk as Gandalf the Grey and after his resurrection as Gandalf the White, spake to Frodo thusly: "Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."
Which scripture is the more persuasive authority as a guide to moral behavior? And which has the more humane message in this particular instance?
Which scripture is the more persuasive authority as a guide to moral behavior? And which has the more humane message in this particular instance?
51
Just about every commenter here should read The Preacher if you haven't yet. I'm not always a graphic novel kind of lady but this one is goooood and revels in pointing out the craziness of worshiping a God like the one described in the bible.
53
Dear Slog,
I want to apologize for comprehending Goldy's "Discuss" as an actual invitation to discuss the selected passage. It was a foolish of me. Maybe some day you will see the collected writings of what is called the Bible as I do. A piece of literature. An elevated piece, as some see it as a living being. To me it is a mystery full of inconsistencies, violence, rape, erotic poetry, some historical facts, etc. I suspect that it has meanings to its audience that have long been lost, just as children fail at the game of Telephone. It is comprised of writings from a culture based on oral tradition, where punctuation is not recorded but interpreted with the listeners ears. I suspect that it is riddled with interpolations and transcribers expansions, some possibly intended to be benign or culturally applicable but others possibly done with malice. It's translation from ancient Greek to English is riddled with errors. Since it holds such sway in 2012, I'd like to see it revealed for all its inconsistencies and the worship of it undermined. After all, it is but symbols on pages. If I gave anyone the impression that I was trying to make it palatable, then I regret that. Again sorry for thinking this was sort of an academic discussion. I was mistaken to think so. Enjoy your SLOG Bible study. :-)
I do enjoy you all. Best wishes.
I want to apologize for comprehending Goldy's "Discuss" as an actual invitation to discuss the selected passage. It was a foolish of me. Maybe some day you will see the collected writings of what is called the Bible as I do. A piece of literature. An elevated piece, as some see it as a living being. To me it is a mystery full of inconsistencies, violence, rape, erotic poetry, some historical facts, etc. I suspect that it has meanings to its audience that have long been lost, just as children fail at the game of Telephone. It is comprised of writings from a culture based on oral tradition, where punctuation is not recorded but interpreted with the listeners ears. I suspect that it is riddled with interpolations and transcribers expansions, some possibly intended to be benign or culturally applicable but others possibly done with malice. It's translation from ancient Greek to English is riddled with errors. Since it holds such sway in 2012, I'd like to see it revealed for all its inconsistencies and the worship of it undermined. After all, it is but symbols on pages. If I gave anyone the impression that I was trying to make it palatable, then I regret that. Again sorry for thinking this was sort of an academic discussion. I was mistaken to think so. Enjoy your SLOG Bible study. :-)
I do enjoy you all. Best wishes.
54
These days when THE LORD commands his followers to fly planes into buildings or shoot an abortion doctor, it makes sense to me because God's followers have a fast internet connection to be able to quickly & efficiently receive His Holy Wishes.
But what i'm wondering is: How in the heck did Moses get his marching orders when there were only *really* slow dial-up internet connections to the Heavenly Host?!?
But what i'm wondering is: How in the heck did Moses get his marching orders when there were only *really* slow dial-up internet connections to the Heavenly Host?!?
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