Slog
News & ArtsFriday, February 10, 2012
Savage Love SL Letter of the Day: Daddy Loves Who?
Posted by Dan Savage on Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 2:26 PM
I’m a straight woman and I am 19 and should be in college. Due to pretty major depression and anxiety problems, I am not in school and I live with my parents.
This morning, around 5 AM, I heard my father go into the bathroom, which is next to my bedroom. I have really good hearing, and trouble sleeping, so it’s not unusual for me to wake up when he uses the bathroom at night. This time, over the sound of him urinating, I heard my father say, “I’m in love with you.”
I’m the only one who could have possibly heard what he said. I couldn't shake my disgust. I lay awake, feeling like I was going to vomit, until I heard him get up and go to work.
Last night, while my mom was out and my father and I were watching TV, he told me how beautiful I looked the other night. He has given me compliments like this before, never anything sexually explicit, but they have always made me uncomfortable. I’m not an affectionate person (I’ve never had sex), and I feel uncomfortable when anyone touches or hugs me.
I am really ashamed and afraid to tell anyone about this. I’m so sick right now that I want to leave and never come back, but that seems impossible due to money concerns and my inability to live independently.
I can’t tell my mom or my sisters, who are both grown and live in other states. I’m scared if my dad finds out I heard him, it will be revealed that he does think he’s in love with me, and he’ll try to molest me or he’ll kill himself.
I would really like to hear back from you. I know there are help lines for incest victims but since he hasn’t assaulted me, I don’t want to take time away from real victims.
Troubled And Living With Parents
My response after the jump...
··················
How do you know your father was speaking to or about you? He could've been on his cell phone, he could have been talking to some other woman, or thinking about some other woman, or waking up from a dream about the night he first told your mother that he loved her, or he could have been talking to himself, or talking to his penis. People sometimes blurt things out for no reason when they're half asleep.
You say your dad has never assaulted you, TALWP, and I'm going to assume that he's never touched you in an inappropriate way. (You surely would've mentioned it if he had.) So which seems likelier: Your dad decided to confess his love for you while taking a piss in the middle of the night? Or your general anxieties and specific fears around sex prompted you to misinterpret your father's actions?
As for those compliments: tell your dad that it makes you uncomfortable when he talks about your looks. He probably senses that you're uncomfortable with your looks and with your sexuality and he may think that compliments will help to build up your sexual self-esteem. Tell them they have the opposite effect and ask him to stop.
Be direct with your dad when you ask him to stop complimenting you, TALWP, and please discuss these fears with your shrink (you are seeing a shrink, right?). It seems to me that your dad—who has never done anything wrong, who gets up every day and goes to work so that he can provide for you—deserves the benefit of whatever doubts were created by that one late-night "I'm in love with you" and those unwelcome compliments. Maybe your shrink will agree.
And maybe you should start sleeping with the radio on.
2
Uh, agree with the part about letting him know that the comments make her uncomfortable, but I also want to know if he's always made these comments only when they're alone or if he ever makes them in front of other family. If the latter, then it's less of an alarm, but if the former, then stack some soda cans together in by the closed bedroom door instead of turn the radio on. And also, he's made them before, but for how long--a year or ten years?
3
That was my first thought -- he was declaring his love for his penis. This is not unheard of with men who have one.
5
Geez, Dan. Generally not wanting to be touched does not mean sexual anxiety, and not wanting to get creepy comments about one's looks from one's own father does not mean LW is uncomfortable with her looks. However, I agree that LW should discuss the situation with her therapist. Therapist are required by law not to disclose anything that goes on in therapy, unless someone is in immediate danger, but it doesn't sound like this is the case for LW.
6
Maybe her mom was in there 'helping' him?
This poor girl sounds like she needs to get some help. Plenty of parents tell their kids they look nice or are beautiful. Especially if those kids either aren't or don't think they are.
This poor girl sounds like she needs to get some help. Plenty of parents tell their kids they look nice or are beautiful. Especially if those kids either aren't or don't think they are.
8
If you're not in therapy, hon, get in therapy. You need to talk this out in detail with someone who can help you assess what's really going on. Reality could be anything from him grooming you to you being batshit - no matter which, you lying terrified in your bed every night is not the most appropriate way of dealing with it.
9
I'm not sure this is an incest-ish situation. It sounds like the LW might need some professional counseling. I've been on the receiving end of being told by a family member that they would like to bang me, and I've worked with women who awoke to a family member wanking off or sexually assaulting/raping them, and this (with the present information given) doesn't sound the same. I don't think she should discount her gut either, though. I think she should talk to someone and take steps to protect herself. Maybe putting a piece of furniture in front of her bedroom door? Maybe ask her mom if her dad talks to himself or when he's sleepy, because she can hear him through the bathroom walls? Poor LW. I hope things get better for her and she is safe.
12
I can't see any possibility that you have this right. Yes, he spoke out loud, presumably with only one other person in the house, but so what? Did he even know you were awake and listening to him through a wall while he was urinating? Who communicates big news that way?
13
Total nutjob. Who hears anyone say anything THROUGH AN EFIN BATHROOM WALL AT 5:00AM, and then concludes her father (not step-dad) has incestuous thoughts about her?!! WTF?
This girl needs help bad. I only hope she doesn't land with one of those awful 'repressed memories' shrinks, or her poor dad's in for a world of trouble he probably never caused. Were I him, I'd boot her out before she can land him in jail.
I detest these types of situations, and you can bet it'll all be on the dad, not loony-toons daughter.
This girl needs help bad. I only hope she doesn't land with one of those awful 'repressed memories' shrinks, or her poor dad's in for a world of trouble he probably never caused. Were I him, I'd boot her out before she can land him in jail.
I detest these types of situations, and you can bet it'll all be on the dad, not loony-toons daughter.
15
There is absolutely nothing wrong with a dad telling his daughter she's beautiful. She needs help if she isn't getting it already.
16
Keep the radio on? Um, some people have trouble falling asleep if there IS noise. Adding more only makes it worse, especially noises that are designed to draw attention, like speech and music.
17
"Be direct with your dad when you ask him to stop complimenting you"
i think this is excellent advice. and TALWP? i'm a depressive, too, and dependent on my parents, too, and i get freaked out about things sometimes, too. sometimes our brains lie to us. get a third opinion from your doctor or your therapist, and see how things go from there. if there really is something creepy going on here, you'll need the support.
i think this is excellent advice. and TALWP? i'm a depressive, too, and dependent on my parents, too, and i get freaked out about things sometimes, too. sometimes our brains lie to us. get a third opinion from your doctor or your therapist, and see how things go from there. if there really is something creepy going on here, you'll need the support.
18
I feel awful for both her and her Dad. She needs help desperately, and it must be so hard for her dad to deal with instances like these, though it certainly sounds like he does his damnedest.
19
Or god forbid her dad was tossing one off.
Get over it. Your parents have sex and masturbate. Do like everyone else and block out any image of parental sexuality, that way they do you the same courtesy of blocking out any idea of teenage sexuality if they hear you spinning your bean.
99 percent chance it has nothing to do with you Ms. world revolves around me.
Get over it. Your parents have sex and masturbate. Do like everyone else and block out any image of parental sexuality, that way they do you the same courtesy of blocking out any idea of teenage sexuality if they hear you spinning your bean.
99 percent chance it has nothing to do with you Ms. world revolves around me.
20
Might be a good idea to bring it all out in the open. Tell them at breakfast -- "you know, I think I heard Dad sleep-talking last night. Weirdest thing." Whether this was innocuous or not, there's no good reason to keep it a secret.
23
What agony and Valkyrie said.
You sound really stuck, but I don’t think you’re as stuck as you feel.
I know that your perceptions aren’t completely accurate, because your letter is full of reasons that you don’t have options. You do have options, and part of a therapist’s role is to help you recognize them.
However, your gut really is important. If your gut is telling you that something is wrong, then something is wrong. Yes, your father really could have designs on you. This does happen. If your father is so unstable that you think he might commit suicide if you reached out for help, then both of you need help. Alternatively, you could be misinterpreting or projecting. None of us commenters, not even Dan, can know these things.
I’m on meds for depression, by the way. If you’re too afraid to get treatment, or feel too undeserving of treatment, that’s also something that a counsellor can help you with.
Finally, regarding whether you deserve help, absolutely you do. You can call a help line and explain your situation, and they can probably refer you to someone who can help you identify priorities to help you feel safe. You don’t need to have suffered a physical attack to be deserving. You are deserving.
You sound really stuck, but I don’t think you’re as stuck as you feel.
I know that your perceptions aren’t completely accurate, because your letter is full of reasons that you don’t have options. You do have options, and part of a therapist’s role is to help you recognize them.
However, your gut really is important. If your gut is telling you that something is wrong, then something is wrong. Yes, your father really could have designs on you. This does happen. If your father is so unstable that you think he might commit suicide if you reached out for help, then both of you need help. Alternatively, you could be misinterpreting or projecting. None of us commenters, not even Dan, can know these things.
I’m on meds for depression, by the way. If you’re too afraid to get treatment, or feel too undeserving of treatment, that’s also something that a counsellor can help you with.
Finally, regarding whether you deserve help, absolutely you do. You can call a help line and explain your situation, and they can probably refer you to someone who can help you identify priorities to help you feel safe. You don’t need to have suffered a physical attack to be deserving. You are deserving.
24
@19 "spinning your bean" -- going to have to remember that one.
If he was urinating at the time, though, I doubt he was jacking off at the same time.
My take on this is that she has no way of knowing if he was talking on his cellphone (although then I feel sorry for the recipient, getting the background noise as well :-P), to his willy, or even to her mother who maybe walked in behind him b/c he was stumbling around? Who knows.
I think she should let him know she doesn't like the compliments (firmly, non confrontationally) and if not in therapy, get in therapy and talk it out with a professional.
If he was urinating at the time, though, I doubt he was jacking off at the same time.
My take on this is that she has no way of knowing if he was talking on his cellphone (although then I feel sorry for the recipient, getting the background noise as well :-P), to his willy, or even to her mother who maybe walked in behind him b/c he was stumbling around? Who knows.
I think she should let him know she doesn't like the compliments (firmly, non confrontationally) and if not in therapy, get in therapy and talk it out with a professional.
26
I figure most people have tired blurt-out phrases, many of them involve love or sex (most of mine do), and a bathroom is the exact kind of place where most people feel alone enough to just let the verbalisations slip out. There is no way this is about you. But I do completely understand where you're coming from; for whatever reason you're not comfortable with this family relationship, and you are prepared to ascribe the absolute worst motives to the guy at the other end of it. My own father was a violent, abusive jerk but he never did anything at all sexual to me and on a rational level I am sure he would never have done so, but while I lived with him I felt unsafe and so when he made a comment on my appearance the possibility did sometimes cross my mind. Even if your father is an absolute saint to you, YOU clearly don't feel safe in your life and you're therefore jumping at shadows.
Do talk to a therapist, seriously. And level with your father, say you'd prefer him not to talk about your appearance, and if there is some other reason you don't trust him or feel safe around him, well maybe you should tell the therapist about that too.
Do talk to a therapist, seriously. And level with your father, say you'd prefer him not to talk about your appearance, and if there is some other reason you don't trust him or feel safe around him, well maybe you should tell the therapist about that too.
27
@25 Who has a female penis?
Addressing the LW's problem: I think part of the issue is how today with all of the publicity about child molestation people immediately jump to the conclusion that something mildly inappropriate is a big red flag.
Addressing the LW's problem: I think part of the issue is how today with all of the publicity about child molestation people immediately jump to the conclusion that something mildly inappropriate is a big red flag.
28
He couldn't have been talking to the mom, because she lives in another state, as the letter says. But my first thought was that he was fantasizing, and he was talking to whomever he thinks about when he does so. He had just woken up, was getting ready for the day, it wouldn't be that surprising if he masturbated in the bathroom. And it seems from the LW's writing, he wouldn't necessarily expect his daughter to be aware of it. Is he aware that his using the bathroom tends to wake his daughter? And, even if so, he may not realize the extent to which he can be heard or that his daughter would freak out over what she heard. Although talking in half-sleep is also a reasonable possibility. I've heard all sorts of nonsense from half-asleep people, and said a few ridiculous things myself.
29
@27 I do, mines a husky black woman named Tamika. She wears a turtleneck and loves to play tennis.
30
People calling the LW creepy or a nutjob are insensitive assholes. She's a 19 year-old kid with depression and anxiety issues reaching out for help.
She shouldn't be ashamed or afraid to talk to someone in person about the anxieties she's having surrounding her father. If she doesn't feel comfortable talking to her mom, she should talk to a therapist or counselor.
She shouldn't be ashamed or afraid to talk to someone in person about the anxieties she's having surrounding her father. If she doesn't feel comfortable talking to her mom, she should talk to a therapist or counselor.
31
@28
I thought the same thing at first but it's just the sisters who live elsewhere. Mom and Dad live with her. She doesn't say why she can't talk to them, only that they're grown and away. In her position I would want to talk to the sisters first. Maybe they aren't close that way. Dad would probably have gone after them first if he's after his daughters at all (unlikely as I said above).
I thought the same thing at first but it's just the sisters who live elsewhere. Mom and Dad live with her. She doesn't say why she can't talk to them, only that they're grown and away. In her position I would want to talk to the sisters first. Maybe they aren't close that way. Dad would probably have gone after them first if he's after his daughters at all (unlikely as I said above).
33
How about "Dad, you woke me up the other morning when you peed. Can you sit down or at least aim to the side of the bowl? It's loud."
35
It'd be a different kind of problem if her father never once said he thought she was beautiful. No?
36
get a therapist, be direct about the complement thing, get therapy...yes, yes, yes.
and move the fuck out of the house. get a job or get into college, or both! or join the army. but grow the fuck up, you are 19. an adult
start acting like one
and move the fuck out of the house. get a job or get into college, or both! or join the army. but grow the fuck up, you are 19. an adult
start acting like one
38
A someone who's spent a lil time in a psych ward, I can tell you that hearing voices "only you could have possibly heard" coming from another room and saying things that "make you feel uncomfortable" has the potential to more than a sex-advise-level problem -- especially in a 19 year-old with a recent history of "major depression and anxiety problems." (That's the prime age for the onset of schizophrenia-like symptoms in young adults)
Can't repeat what Dan said enough:
See your shrink. See your shrink! SEE YOUR SHRINK!!!
(And if you don't have one, go find one -- free counseling is out there. Get some soon.)
Can't repeat what Dan said enough:
See your shrink. See your shrink! SEE YOUR SHRINK!!!
(And if you don't have one, go find one -- free counseling is out there. Get some soon.)
39
@35: "It'd be a different kind of problem if her father never once said he thought she was beautiful. No?"
Well, in that case she might have jumped to the conclusion that he was trying to obscure a covert cell call to The Other Woman with the sound of piddling....
Well, in that case she might have jumped to the conclusion that he was trying to obscure a covert cell call to The Other Woman with the sound of piddling....
40
Hey neat! I'm happy to learn that I'm not the only weirdo who occasionally blurts phrases out loud. It's usually when I'm tired (or the opposite, super anxious), and usually in the bathroom or other places where one would usually expect privacy. Also, and I have no idea why, the phrases usually have the word "love" in them - "I love you!", shit like that.
41
Uh, #36? This person has a serious medical problem. It's called depression. That doesn't mean she's not 'acting like an adult'. She already says, at the start of her letter, that she wants to go to college but isn't able to do so right now due to her state of health. In any case, if college qualified one for adulthood then colleges would be markedly different from what they are. There are multiple ways to grow up, and college guarantees none of them. Not that you'd know about growing up, I guess.
42
he may think that compliments will help... Tell them they have the opposite effect
Yes to everything, but a minor addition to this.
It's not unusual for someone with depression and low self-esteem to feel uncomfortable receiving compliments in general. It just doesn't fit with the negative cognitive framework they have set up for themselves.
Either they reject the compliment, or they twist it into an insult. For example, something like "I love your haircut" might be perceived as "I hate how your hair used to look", or "you're beautiful" might be perceived as "OMG my father wants to rape me".
Yes to everything, but a minor addition to this.
It's not unusual for someone with depression and low self-esteem to feel uncomfortable receiving compliments in general. It just doesn't fit with the negative cognitive framework they have set up for themselves.
Either they reject the compliment, or they twist it into an insult. For example, something like "I love your haircut" might be perceived as "I hate how your hair used to look", or "you're beautiful" might be perceived as "OMG my father wants to rape me".
43
A habit I've picked up from my dad is of talking to myself pretty constantly when I think no-one else can hear (like, late at night when no-one else is in the room). Goodness knows what anyone would think of either of us if they thought we were addressing them....
44
My two cents on this matter to offer the letter writer is;
1. Always listen to your gut. Your gut often knows more than your brain.
2. Anxiety can distort your perceptions, and what you think is your gut might actually be your anxiety and imagination playing tricks on you.
3. It's not common to communicate with others while pissing. If he spoke while he was pissing, it was most likely to himself. I often talk to myself in the bathroom, because it feels very enclosed and private, especially if there's a mirror.
4. If your Dad compliments your looks again, tell him not to, and tell him it's creepy (I suggest you deliver this message in a way that its clear that its more about you, and doesn't sound heavy or accusatory.
And just a story from me. I had a boss who I felt creeped out by. Mostly by the way he smiled tenderly towards me, like I was sweet and cute. I had anxiety at the time and his behaviour exacerbated it. I confronted him on it, and the minute I confronted him on it, my anxiety towards him disappeared. (unfortunately, he was very upset by what I said, and I may have done permanent damage to him emotionally. And to this day, I'm not 100% sure if I imagined his creepiness or if it was my anxiety playing tricks on me). Sometimes, we're wrong.
I hope you're wrong, and I hope this passes. Good luck with whatever you decide to do to handle this situation. It sounds horrible.
1. Always listen to your gut. Your gut often knows more than your brain.
2. Anxiety can distort your perceptions, and what you think is your gut might actually be your anxiety and imagination playing tricks on you.
3. It's not common to communicate with others while pissing. If he spoke while he was pissing, it was most likely to himself. I often talk to myself in the bathroom, because it feels very enclosed and private, especially if there's a mirror.
4. If your Dad compliments your looks again, tell him not to, and tell him it's creepy (I suggest you deliver this message in a way that its clear that its more about you, and doesn't sound heavy or accusatory.
And just a story from me. I had a boss who I felt creeped out by. Mostly by the way he smiled tenderly towards me, like I was sweet and cute. I had anxiety at the time and his behaviour exacerbated it. I confronted him on it, and the minute I confronted him on it, my anxiety towards him disappeared. (unfortunately, he was very upset by what I said, and I may have done permanent damage to him emotionally. And to this day, I'm not 100% sure if I imagined his creepiness or if it was my anxiety playing tricks on me). Sometimes, we're wrong.
I hope you're wrong, and I hope this passes. Good luck with whatever you decide to do to handle this situation. It sounds horrible.
45
Plenty of women, and men, have had fathers and mothers who get up early and go to work to provide for their children, whom they then turn around and exploit horribly. Just sayin'. Having a 9 to 5 doesn't absolve someone of creepitude.
That being said, I suspect that the LW is letting her anxiety run away with her. She's immediately constructed the worst possible scenario and isn't letting it go.
I second (third? fourth? tenth?) the call for counseling. The LW can get some help in dealing constructively with her anxieties, and on the off-off-off chance that the dad really *is* that bad, a counselor will be able to help the LW get out of that situation.
Also, for what it's worth, I sometimes call myself an asshole when I'm alone and do something dumb like break a drinking glass while doing the dishes. Can't imagine what would happen if someone like the LW overheard me say *that*!
That being said, I suspect that the LW is letting her anxiety run away with her. She's immediately constructed the worst possible scenario and isn't letting it go.
I second (third? fourth? tenth?) the call for counseling. The LW can get some help in dealing constructively with her anxieties, and on the off-off-off chance that the dad really *is* that bad, a counselor will be able to help the LW get out of that situation.
Also, for what it's worth, I sometimes call myself an asshole when I'm alone and do something dumb like break a drinking glass while doing the dishes. Can't imagine what would happen if someone like the LW overheard me say *that*!
46
LW, you have got to talk to your therapist about this ASAP. If you don't have a therapist, get one. When you are depressed and anxious, it's really easy to misinterpret others' words and actions in a threatening or negative way, so please be open to the idea that your brain might be doing that. On the other hand, a good therapist will be able to help you evaluate whether there is really something weird going on.
Dan is right, if you don't like being complimented by your father right now, you can just tell him directly that you'd rather not hear those kinds of compliments right now.
And don't listen to anyone who is writing mean things to you. They don't understand what you are going through at all and are just being douches. Ignore them.
Dan is right, if you don't like being complimented by your father right now, you can just tell him directly that you'd rather not hear those kinds of compliments right now.
And don't listen to anyone who is writing mean things to you. They don't understand what you are going through at all and are just being douches. Ignore them.
47
As a father of a teenage daughter this freaks me out. She leads Off the letter with an admittance of severe depression and anxiety. Please do not persecute this man for doing/ trying to do the right thing. Telling your depressed daughter that she looks beautiful may be abuse?? Cmon! I am constantly doubting or regretting not letting my daughter know that she is a beautiful person. How is it done right? Is my love and support to shallow or not effective. He is trying! And thinking you're dad is communicating to you through the walls? I've had plenty of anxious, sleepless nights. Hearing things outside, inside, burglar or monster aaaahhhh! But in the morning all is normal. For the LW sake I hope she is not beginning a psychotic break but I wonder.
48
We don't know this guy. What we do know is that this anxious, depressed 19-year-old is now afraid. Telling her to just let her father know she doesn't like remarks about her looks is pretty insensitive. Telling her to see her therapist assumes that she has one, and since she's financially dependent on her parents, it's likely she doesn't. If she's making unfair assumptions about him, he'll survive. She may not; she doesn't need unfeeling criticism.
49
Just a minor response to a couple of commenters---trusting your gut over your brain is a terrible way to approach major problems like this. Your gut instinct is good for bringing things to your attention that you might have missed, but if you look at it rationally and there seems to be nothing to it, then it's stupid to keep searching for something. All you'll succeed in doing is to find any reason, no matter how ridiculous, to confirm your suspicion. Our instincts are not magically aware of what's really going on; they aren't a special window to reality.
50
dhawk,
If your gut is telling you there’s something wrong, then there’s something wrong. It can’t tell you what’s wrong — your gut doesn’t distinguish between my-dad-is-being-creepy wrong and I-may-be-developing-schizophrenic-symptoms wrong. But either way, something’s wrong.
Timrrr: yes.
If your gut is telling you there’s something wrong, then there’s something wrong. It can’t tell you what’s wrong — your gut doesn’t distinguish between my-dad-is-being-creepy wrong and I-may-be-developing-schizophrenic-symptoms wrong. But either way, something’s wrong.
Timrrr: yes.
51
Since she's 19 I think it's doubtful that he's grooming her in any way. Most abuse starts long before adulthood- molesters usually pick on kids, not young adults. He most likely assumed she was asleep and that she wouldn't hear him talking to himself. Whether he was on his cell or practicing the way in which he would work up the nerve to tell his girlfriend that he loves her, it's doubtful that he thought anyone would overhear him, let alone that his daughter would assume that he meant her.
My dad made some creepy-ass comments directly to me about my developing "curves" and boys "touching" me. I was an underage teen at the time and it was really hard for me to figure out what the hell he was trying to say. I felt violated by his comments, even if he didn't mean it that way. For the longest time I thought he was possibly a pervert or pedo to the point where I was sick about it, b/c he had always been my favorite parent- but much later, in adulthood, I went to therapy and read some articles about inappropriate dads (not a pedophile, but boundaries-challenged).
Unfortunately, all that research and therapy didn't come until after I had already told several people that I thought my dad was a pervert and had also confronted him directly about the comments, etc. It was pretty traumatic. I didn't get it all worked out until my early 30's, b/c I'd never seen that type of issue handled before. It's not like I was touched inappropriately, so I couldn't exactly get out my rape whistle, right? I was just very uncomfortable, b/c I felt like some unspoken boundary had been crossed. I didn't know what to think, b/c it seemed as if he was talking to me the way that boys at high school who wanted to fuck me would talk to me. I was so creeped out and confused.
Here's the answer I got from research and my therapist. I found out that many dads are very, very uncomfortable with their daughters' blossoming womanhood- they don't quite know how to handle it all. There are even some guys who have ego issues/personality problems and have to constantly assert their masculinity by making sexual or inappropriate remarks in the presence of any female (mom, grandma, daughter, anyone with a vagina), without any intention of ever doing anything sexual- they're creeps with issues, but they're not molesters. In that case, an emotional boundary is being crossed b/c of the constant sexual inuendo, but there's no intention of molestation or sexual contact with minors.
It's very possible that TALWP has a dad who's clueless or maybe even a bit creepy, so he makes her uncomfortable in the first place. He's probably got some issues and made some creepy inappropriate comments in the past, so she's already a bit leary of him. Then he goes around talking to himself at 5 am in the morning thinking no one is listening- and the combination of the entire uncomfortable scenario makes her feel violated. But just because she feels he's crossed a boundary (which he very well may have), doesn't mean he wants an incestuous relationship. He's probably just a bit of a weirdo.
Something my therapist pointed out that might be helpful: Even good parenting can feel traumatic to a child, b/c children don't have the maturity to understand why their parents might be acting a certain way. So when there is bad parenting, it can feel doubly traumatic- even if what the parent said or did wasn't all that terrible. But b/c parents have so much power in our lives, we're much, much more sensitive to how they treat us.
Whatever the case may be, this girl should get some therapy and talk it out. It helps to do a reality check. She should focus on getting better so she can go back to school or work.
More...
My dad made some creepy-ass comments directly to me about my developing "curves" and boys "touching" me. I was an underage teen at the time and it was really hard for me to figure out what the hell he was trying to say. I felt violated by his comments, even if he didn't mean it that way. For the longest time I thought he was possibly a pervert or pedo to the point where I was sick about it, b/c he had always been my favorite parent- but much later, in adulthood, I went to therapy and read some articles about inappropriate dads (not a pedophile, but boundaries-challenged).
Unfortunately, all that research and therapy didn't come until after I had already told several people that I thought my dad was a pervert and had also confronted him directly about the comments, etc. It was pretty traumatic. I didn't get it all worked out until my early 30's, b/c I'd never seen that type of issue handled before. It's not like I was touched inappropriately, so I couldn't exactly get out my rape whistle, right? I was just very uncomfortable, b/c I felt like some unspoken boundary had been crossed. I didn't know what to think, b/c it seemed as if he was talking to me the way that boys at high school who wanted to fuck me would talk to me. I was so creeped out and confused.
Here's the answer I got from research and my therapist. I found out that many dads are very, very uncomfortable with their daughters' blossoming womanhood- they don't quite know how to handle it all. There are even some guys who have ego issues/personality problems and have to constantly assert their masculinity by making sexual or inappropriate remarks in the presence of any female (mom, grandma, daughter, anyone with a vagina), without any intention of ever doing anything sexual- they're creeps with issues, but they're not molesters. In that case, an emotional boundary is being crossed b/c of the constant sexual inuendo, but there's no intention of molestation or sexual contact with minors.
It's very possible that TALWP has a dad who's clueless or maybe even a bit creepy, so he makes her uncomfortable in the first place. He's probably got some issues and made some creepy inappropriate comments in the past, so she's already a bit leary of him. Then he goes around talking to himself at 5 am in the morning thinking no one is listening- and the combination of the entire uncomfortable scenario makes her feel violated. But just because she feels he's crossed a boundary (which he very well may have), doesn't mean he wants an incestuous relationship. He's probably just a bit of a weirdo.
Something my therapist pointed out that might be helpful: Even good parenting can feel traumatic to a child, b/c children don't have the maturity to understand why their parents might be acting a certain way. So when there is bad parenting, it can feel doubly traumatic- even if what the parent said or did wasn't all that terrible. But b/c parents have so much power in our lives, we're much, much more sensitive to how they treat us.
Whatever the case may be, this girl should get some therapy and talk it out. It helps to do a reality check. She should focus on getting better so she can go back to school or work.
52
I think the dad might have been singing (probably badly). Ever since I heard Obama sing Al Greens "I'm so in love with you", its been stuck in my head.
The dad sounds like he's doing everything right. I hope she gets the help she needs.
The dad sounds like he's doing everything right. I hope she gets the help she needs.
53
#38 for the win. This could very very easily be the onset of a more severe neurological illness, and "trusting your gut" is pretty much the worst thing that a paranoid schizophrenic could do. Of course, getting a diagnosis from a bunch of idiots on the internet is nearly as bad: FIND A SHRINK AND TALK TO ONE.
55
Hey TALWP,
Find a therapist and get this out in the open. If nothing else, having someone outside your family to act on your behalf might boost your sense of safety.
It is highly likely that you misinterpreted why your father said what he did, but your sense of vulnerability is the real problem. Find someone you can trust, and let yourself drain the emotional overload you're in. Therapy seems useless from the outside, but has been shown to alter brain function and chemistry, so talking is a lot more powerful than you might believe.
Good Luck.
Peace.
Find a therapist and get this out in the open. If nothing else, having someone outside your family to act on your behalf might boost your sense of safety.
It is highly likely that you misinterpreted why your father said what he did, but your sense of vulnerability is the real problem. Find someone you can trust, and let yourself drain the emotional overload you're in. Therapy seems useless from the outside, but has been shown to alter brain function and chemistry, so talking is a lot more powerful than you might believe.
Good Luck.
Peace.
57
the writer is a ticking time bomb of false accusations. The dad would be smart to kick her out before she tears the family apart with " recovered memories."
58
@38: Ooh, damn, I hadn't even thought of that-- you're sharp. I totally concur.
@53: the bit about "trusting your gut is the worst thing a paranoid schizophrenic can do" made me laugh a little, because my brother is shizophrenic, and can't be convinced that, for example, our mom isn't trying to make him live inside the Disney Channel because their new apartment complex is called The Waverly--and that's with his medication. So yeah.
@53: the bit about "trusting your gut is the worst thing a paranoid schizophrenic can do" made me laugh a little, because my brother is shizophrenic, and can't be convinced that, for example, our mom isn't trying to make him live inside the Disney Channel because their new apartment complex is called The Waverly--and that's with his medication. So yeah.
59
That was quite an experience. When she described the situation (she just happens to be awake at 5am, he goes into the bathroom and says something, she feels terrible) my instant reaction was thinking "Oh the poor dear, having to find out her dad is having an affair". Then the letter took a severe left turn and it really took me a minute to figure out what she was getting at.
Wow. Just...wow. Please see a therapist. Whatever you have is making you see situations in a twisted and highly improbable light.
Wow. Just...wow. Please see a therapist. Whatever you have is making you see situations in a twisted and highly improbable light.
60
@44 "Always listen to your gut. Your gut often knows more than your brain."
What?! No. Just...no. And even if your gut did know more, how do you even interpret it correctly? What it's gas, or appendicitis?r
Definitely therapy. Maybe a lot. Possibly some meds too, if it helps...
What?! No. Just...no. And even if your gut did know more, how do you even interpret it correctly? What it's gas, or appendicitis?r
Definitely therapy. Maybe a lot. Possibly some meds too, if it helps...
62
@56
No. "Assault" is creating a state of fear of imminent danger in someone's mind. "Battery" is the part where someone actually gets physical with you. Yelling at someone can be assault.
No. "Assault" is creating a state of fear of imminent danger in someone's mind. "Battery" is the part where someone actually gets physical with you. Yelling at someone can be assault.
63
@57 expresses what I'm afraid dad may be in for. Some "well intentioned" therapist will destroy Dad's life by elevating his most likely innocent but possibly creepy comments into something much worse.
LW doesn't say why she doesnt live with mom if dad creeps her out do much.
LW doesn't say why she doesnt live with mom if dad creeps her out do much.
64
@36
Yes! 19 = adult = ability to move out.
A job may also help LW with her depression.
Depression is a sticky hole, been there done that, having to get up & out and put on a smile every day helps. Anxiety gets worse if you stay home. That's how agoraphobia develops in many people.
Yes, economy sucks, and wages are too low at many jobs for supporting a family and having a home even for college grads.
BUT for a 19y.o. with no debt, no kids, it's possible. A sucky low wage part time retail or fast food job can pay just enough for a share in a sucky studio apartment way way out at the end of the subway/bus line in many major cities (NYC even, $500/mo. for a studio share if you're willing to live with an 80 min. subway ride from the distant outer boroughs, each way!). You'll live on mac & cheese, of course... but maybe the change of environment, as long as you stay on parents' insurance and keep up with therapy, will help.
OR if you stay home, LW, how about moving rooms if your parents' place is a house? Sleep in the basement if you have one. A job is still a good idea.
Yes! 19 = adult = ability to move out.
A job may also help LW with her depression.
Depression is a sticky hole, been there done that, having to get up & out and put on a smile every day helps. Anxiety gets worse if you stay home. That's how agoraphobia develops in many people.
Yes, economy sucks, and wages are too low at many jobs for supporting a family and having a home even for college grads.
BUT for a 19y.o. with no debt, no kids, it's possible. A sucky low wage part time retail or fast food job can pay just enough for a share in a sucky studio apartment way way out at the end of the subway/bus line in many major cities (NYC even, $500/mo. for a studio share if you're willing to live with an 80 min. subway ride from the distant outer boroughs, each way!). You'll live on mac & cheese, of course... but maybe the change of environment, as long as you stay on parents' insurance and keep up with therapy, will help.
OR if you stay home, LW, how about moving rooms if your parents' place is a house? Sleep in the basement if you have one. A job is still a good idea.
65
@64 It sounds to me like she's too messed up to just get a job and move out - what's gonna happen when she hears her roommate say "I want to kill you" through the water pipes? If her dad truly is after her (unlikely but possible) she'll need some help dealing with that, and if he isn't and she's fabricating all of this (much more likely) she really shouldn't be out grappling with the world. "Adult" may = ability to move out, but what does "sick" equal?
66
@63
As @31 explains, it's the LW's two sisters who "who are both grown and live in other states" -- not the mom. The LW says in the first paragraph: "I live with my parents."
As @31 explains, it's the LW's two sisters who "who are both grown and live in other states" -- not the mom. The LW says in the first paragraph: "I live with my parents."
67
Good advice, Dan. And a nice supplement from comment 38, as others have noted--this voice-hearing shit might be a symptom of the onset of some form of schizophrenia.
And I bet there's a fairly good likelihood that the letter writer isn't receiving all the health care she needs--if her home only has one bathroom (no master bath for Dad's middle of the night need to pee) it suggests that they're not very well off, which suggests that they might have shitty or no insurance, which suggests she might not have coverage, which suggests she might be receiving little or no treatment for her anxiety and depression (and possible schizophrenia).
So talk to your Doctor, Letter Writer, and if you don't have one please check out the link comment 38 helpfully provided.
And I bet there's a fairly good likelihood that the letter writer isn't receiving all the health care she needs--if her home only has one bathroom (no master bath for Dad's middle of the night need to pee) it suggests that they're not very well off, which suggests that they might have shitty or no insurance, which suggests she might not have coverage, which suggests she might be receiving little or no treatment for her anxiety and depression (and possible schizophrenia).
So talk to your Doctor, Letter Writer, and if you don't have one please check out the link comment 38 helpfully provided.
68
I am in the heart of a red state, and even here we have access to sliding scale therapeutic/psychiatric care. I have no thought disorders, but have suffered from severe depression and anxiety since puberty. It can severely warp your perceptions, and the less input from the outside world you are getting the more warped your perceptions will get.
I am a wife and a mother, I have a responsible job, and even now sometimes I start to slip. I'll lie in bed at night convinced my husband (who has never been anything other than gentle and loving to me) is going to kill me for the insurance. Because there is no way a good man could love someone as fucked-up as me. That's where severe depression takes you. Therapy has helped me get out myself of that place in a few hours, instead of months or years.
I twenty-second what everyone else has said. THERAPY!!!!! Please get therapy, if you are getting therapy, and aren't talking about these things, please start. If they don't know they can't help you. Therapists are next to impossible to shock, and being honest is the only way to get anything out of it.
You have to get a job. Volunteer if nothing else is available. Getting a job is one of the best things you can do to get yourself out of your own head. It feels impossible now, I KNOW that, but go to a fast-food place and get a part-time job. Go to a temp agency, and get a low-pay clerical temp job. Every day you are scheduled to work, you get up, shower, and go to work. That is a Herculean task when you are severely depressed, but it really does help. If you're having a bad day, do the absolute minimum you have to. And don't beat yourself up about it, nobody will fire you. In jobs like that they're just grateful you showed up. It took me a long time to realize that making myself leave the house every day was essential to my mental health.
I'm rooting for you, and sending good vibes your way. It gets better, I promise.
More...
I am a wife and a mother, I have a responsible job, and even now sometimes I start to slip. I'll lie in bed at night convinced my husband (who has never been anything other than gentle and loving to me) is going to kill me for the insurance. Because there is no way a good man could love someone as fucked-up as me. That's where severe depression takes you. Therapy has helped me get out myself of that place in a few hours, instead of months or years.
I twenty-second what everyone else has said. THERAPY!!!!! Please get therapy, if you are getting therapy, and aren't talking about these things, please start. If they don't know they can't help you. Therapists are next to impossible to shock, and being honest is the only way to get anything out of it.
You have to get a job. Volunteer if nothing else is available. Getting a job is one of the best things you can do to get yourself out of your own head. It feels impossible now, I KNOW that, but go to a fast-food place and get a part-time job. Go to a temp agency, and get a low-pay clerical temp job. Every day you are scheduled to work, you get up, shower, and go to work. That is a Herculean task when you are severely depressed, but it really does help. If you're having a bad day, do the absolute minimum you have to. And don't beat yourself up about it, nobody will fire you. In jobs like that they're just grateful you showed up. It took me a long time to realize that making myself leave the house every day was essential to my mental health.
I'm rooting for you, and sending good vibes your way. It gets better, I promise.
69
I have no idea how you can hear someone talking in another room in the middle of the night and assume they are talking to you. Frankly, I'm all too familiar with anxiety and depression, and I can definitely understand the part about compliments, but not this. This is flat-out delusional thinking.
In any case, what everyone else said: talk to a shrink. Therapy definitely helps a LOT, but beware of bad shrinks. If you don't feel comfortable with where they are taking you, find another one.
And by the way, I often say stuff precisely when I'm in the bathroom, and quite often it's things like "I love you" (directed at no one in particular) or "I hate you" (directed at myself). Especially when I'm too tired or drunk or just sleepy because it's the middle of the night.
In any case, what everyone else said: talk to a shrink. Therapy definitely helps a LOT, but beware of bad shrinks. If you don't feel comfortable with where they are taking you, find another one.
And by the way, I often say stuff precisely when I'm in the bathroom, and quite often it's things like "I love you" (directed at no one in particular) or "I hate you" (directed at myself). Especially when I'm too tired or drunk or just sleepy because it's the middle of the night.
70
I think living alone, in the outer boroughs would be a bad idea. but some part time volunteer work may help--like a habitat for humanity restore, or ten thousand villages or something--something low-stress that will give her some skills. Depression is way worse when you're just home all day.
71
It does sound like the LW has a lot of anxiety. Still, we don't know what she experiences and so perhaps she has legitimate reasons for perceiving seemingly innocuous things as her dad's infatuation with her. Either way, she should see a therapist, who can offer a more reasonable perspective and perhaps help her work through her depression, and whatever fears and anxieties she has. And she should definitely confront her dad about the compliments making her uncomfortable, although with the benefit of the doubt that the only love for her he has is paternal.
72
@68 I think you've got a good take on it. If it was an audio hallucination during the middle of the night, it probably wouldn't be something as inocuous as "I love you". A hallucination related to paranoia or schizophrenia would most likely be heard as something intensely threatening or overwhelmingly negative, such as "I want to kill you" or "you're a stupid, fat whore"- "I love you" isn't something that paranoid schizophrenics typically would hear.
There could be a lot of layers to her issue that we're not getting. Maybe she needs her medication changed. Also, some psyc meds have rare but serious side effects (such as homicidal or suicidal ideation) that can be just as bad as the disease itself if her meds are not managed correctly. She needs to contact her doctor.
Additionally if she's awake at 5 am she may have sleep problems as many people with psyc disorders do. If she's actively delusional (seems like maybe she is?), has had any changes in her sleeping or eating patterns or is unable to function on a daily basis then she probably needs professional help right away. And it's kind of an emergency b/c of the possibility of suicidal/homicidal ideation- we don't really know what condition she's in just from her letter. She needs to see a clinical psychologist, physician or psychiatrist immediately.
There could be a lot of layers to her issue that we're not getting. Maybe she needs her medication changed. Also, some psyc meds have rare but serious side effects (such as homicidal or suicidal ideation) that can be just as bad as the disease itself if her meds are not managed correctly. She needs to contact her doctor.
Additionally if she's awake at 5 am she may have sleep problems as many people with psyc disorders do. If she's actively delusional (seems like maybe she is?), has had any changes in her sleeping or eating patterns or is unable to function on a daily basis then she probably needs professional help right away. And it's kind of an emergency b/c of the possibility of suicidal/homicidal ideation- we don't really know what condition she's in just from her letter. She needs to see a clinical psychologist, physician or psychiatrist immediately.
73
Pretty much everybody above, no matter what their opinion is about what's going on, agrees that the LW should talk to a therapist. If she doesn't have one, she should find one (there is free counsel; someone above even provided a link).
I don't want to presume to know what is going on. I will agree that her letter suggests she is exaggerating; but it's sometimes difficult to tell the difference between someone who is exaggerating and someone who isn't fully aware of what it is she noticed (the 'gut feeling'). My guess is that the father is doing nothing wrong (I like the suggestion that he might have been singing to himself); but hey, I've been wrong before.
So LW: please, do talk to someone, preferably a therapist. You've got a lot to deal with: depression is a difficult thing (I've had it myself at one point; it isn't easy to deal with). I'm not making assumptions: child abuse does happen (my father did it, with very bad consequences for my family), and misinterpretations by depressed people also do (when I was really depressed, a couple of decades ago, I thought every time a person tried to touch me, s/he was really trying to hurt of even kill me).
Take care of yourself, LW. Find out what's going on, and get help. If you don't think you can trust your father (regardless of whether or not he is indeed trustworthy -- your perception is what makes it easy or difficult for you to talk, isn't it?) then find someone you do trust, preferably a therapist, to discuss all these things with.
Good luck. Hang in tough. As Dan says in another context, it does get better.
I don't want to presume to know what is going on. I will agree that her letter suggests she is exaggerating; but it's sometimes difficult to tell the difference between someone who is exaggerating and someone who isn't fully aware of what it is she noticed (the 'gut feeling'). My guess is that the father is doing nothing wrong (I like the suggestion that he might have been singing to himself); but hey, I've been wrong before.
So LW: please, do talk to someone, preferably a therapist. You've got a lot to deal with: depression is a difficult thing (I've had it myself at one point; it isn't easy to deal with). I'm not making assumptions: child abuse does happen (my father did it, with very bad consequences for my family), and misinterpretations by depressed people also do (when I was really depressed, a couple of decades ago, I thought every time a person tried to touch me, s/he was really trying to hurt of even kill me).
Take care of yourself, LW. Find out what's going on, and get help. If you don't think you can trust your father (regardless of whether or not he is indeed trustworthy -- your perception is what makes it easy or difficult for you to talk, isn't it?) then find someone you do trust, preferably a therapist, to discuss all these things with.
Good luck. Hang in tough. As Dan says in another context, it does get better.
74
I use a box fan at night. It helps me sleep through whatever weird sounds may come rattling through my room. Box fans can even be adjusted from low to high.
75
@ 72: FYI, a lot of schizophrenic "voices" start innocuous, and get threatening much later in the cycle. And of course, if what she heard made her ill, it *wasn't* innocuous, but was instead exactly the thing that would upset her most. Which is just what someone developing schizophrenic symptoms might hear.
76
Trust your gut. When it says something is wrong - something IS wrong. Whether it is with your father or with you - do not ignore it and make sure to take some form of action.
Move out would be my first advice... Just in case. I wish solutions were easier...
Move out would be my first advice... Just in case. I wish solutions were easier...
77
@30: "She's a 19 year-old kid with depression and anxiety issues reaching out for help. "
Or could have BPD. Not everybody who "reaches out" is looking to solve their problems.
Or could have BPD. Not everybody who "reaches out" is looking to solve their problems.
78
@63: "LW doesn't say why she doesnt live with mom if dad creeps her out do much."
Or if there's a history of mental illness in the family...
Seriously, all these "TRUST YOUR GUT" and "IF THERE'S SMOKE THERE'S PROBABLY FIRE" assholes are why there were thousands of poor day care workers in jail for rape, some with a lifetime of horrors.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day-care_se…
Or if there's a history of mental illness in the family...
Seriously, all these "TRUST YOUR GUT" and "IF THERE'S SMOKE THERE'S PROBABLY FIRE" assholes are why there were thousands of poor day care workers in jail for rape, some with a lifetime of horrors.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day-care_se…
79
@5: holy crap man. You know what *does* spell anxiety disorder? Her worrying herself sick that her dad is going to *kill himself* because she doesn't like a couple of comments he made.
That's not her dad talking (people don't get to the age of 45+ by getting suicidal over every little thing). That's her crazy ass talking. And we already know that she's suffering from some pretty serious mental health issues, so worrying herself sick over absolutely nothing at all is a sign of other issues too.
That's not her dad talking (people don't get to the age of 45+ by getting suicidal over every little thing). That's her crazy ass talking. And we already know that she's suffering from some pretty serious mental health issues, so worrying herself sick over absolutely nothing at all is a sign of other issues too.
80
@79 I have to disagree about "people don't get to the age of 45+ by getting suicidal over every little thing."
81
Teenage girls suck.
How many times do I have to read about some girl ready to break all ties with her father over something harmless? "While he was talking to himself, I heard my dad say I'm in love with you. Also, he told me I am pretty." I hate him for this and want to destroy him. Fuck that lifetime of love and protection he has given me. What is 19 years of that shit compared to hearing him talk to himself once?
What this girl does need is in-patient psychiatric help. What she does not need is to destroy her relationship with her father (and perhaps his life as well).
Seriously, why do girls suck so freaking hard?
How many times do I have to read about some girl ready to break all ties with her father over something harmless? "While he was talking to himself, I heard my dad say I'm in love with you. Also, he told me I am pretty." I hate him for this and want to destroy him. Fuck that lifetime of love and protection he has given me. What is 19 years of that shit compared to hearing him talk to himself once?
What this girl does need is in-patient psychiatric help. What she does not need is to destroy her relationship with her father (and perhaps his life as well).
Seriously, why do girls suck so freaking hard?
82
@38 rules. I wrote my first response before reading the comment thread. Although I saw she needed in-patient help, 38 really nailed it. My brother in law had his psychotic break at 19.
I feel strongly enough that 38 is right and that she is at the precipice of a psychotic break that I really hope Dan is able to follow up with her or her family to convince her to go to the hospital RIGHT THIS MINUTE. As soon as she has her full break she will impossible to reach rationally. She needs help right now. Right now. This minute.
I feel strongly enough that 38 is right and that she is at the precipice of a psychotic break that I really hope Dan is able to follow up with her or her family to convince her to go to the hospital RIGHT THIS MINUTE. As soon as she has her full break she will impossible to reach rationally. She needs help right now. Right now. This minute.
83
@81 Actually just from your words here it looks like you might need help. "Girls suck so freaking hard," really? What are you, an 11-year old?
85
Maybe Dad was practicing the best way to tell his wife he loves her. I practice what I'm going to say all the time so that I don't sound like a fool if I get the cadence or intonation wrong. Only a self-centered, narcissist would over hear someone talking to themselves and assume that person must be having a conversation with them. This girl is a loaded gun waiting to ruin her father's (and mother's) lives.
86
I have a problem with the daughter's claim that her father is even capable of coming out to her with a deep, romantic attraction to her. Say you're a Dad and you are in love with your smoking hot teenage daughter. Knowing full well that revealing these feelings could absolutely ruin your life and cut you off from your entire family, including your daughter, would you then blurt out your feelings in the most reckless manner possible? Probably not. A man who is responsible enough to support his family is motivated to keep his family intact, and even if he did have those feelings he most likely would never reveal them. A grown man isn't driven to follow his every "feeling" like a delusional teenage girl, for whom feelings are all that are real to her. Give the man some credit for not being a complete fool. It just is NOT something that a man would say, as described by the daughter.
87
@86 and others: as someone who was a teenage girl quite recently, I have to say: maybe you should think a little before you say stupid shit like this? I've known people as delusional as the LW (and worse) who were neither female nor teenage. In fact, I've never met a teenaged person who acted as delusional as this, and that's probably because none of the teenagers I've met were DISTURBED. Her problem is a mental disorder, either depression and anxiety like she says, or worse, and not her fucking age or her being a girl. Grow the fuck up already.
88
@87 Just because this particular girl is mentally ill does not mean that teenage girls generally don't suck.
I should define suck. In this case I mean that they are petty, judgmental, short sighted, and lack empathy. Now of course they are also casually cruel, vain, and conformist, but those traits are mainly not important for my current purposes. Teenager status for these purposes can last as late as 26, so you are probably right to be defensive.
If you need examples of the suckiness of teenage girls, read through Dan's archives and those of Dear Prudence on Slate and see how often teenage girls are ready to terminate relationships based on just nonsense. "I found out my father uses porn, I am never going speak with him again." "My divorced dad is dating a younger woman, so of course I am cutting all ties." "This or that thing happened, so of course I never want to see my dad again."
Oddly, these things are usually directed at their fathers rather than their mothers. This is why I stressed the lack of empathy. They do turn their scorn on their friends and on boys their age as well of course. See for example, oh, any movie with teenage girls ever made.
Now, just as some women can become firefighters, not every teenage girl sucks. Just enough to make broad generalizations.
I should define suck. In this case I mean that they are petty, judgmental, short sighted, and lack empathy. Now of course they are also casually cruel, vain, and conformist, but those traits are mainly not important for my current purposes. Teenager status for these purposes can last as late as 26, so you are probably right to be defensive.
If you need examples of the suckiness of teenage girls, read through Dan's archives and those of Dear Prudence on Slate and see how often teenage girls are ready to terminate relationships based on just nonsense. "I found out my father uses porn, I am never going speak with him again." "My divorced dad is dating a younger woman, so of course I am cutting all ties." "This or that thing happened, so of course I never want to see my dad again."
Oddly, these things are usually directed at their fathers rather than their mothers. This is why I stressed the lack of empathy. They do turn their scorn on their friends and on boys their age as well of course. See for example, oh, any movie with teenage girls ever made.
Now, just as some women can become firefighters, not every teenage girl sucks. Just enough to make broad generalizations.
89
Oddly, these things are usually directed at their fathers rather than their mothers.
-----------------
As someone who has gone through her own adolescence, and observed that of her friends, her daughter, her daughter's friends, and her friends' daughters, plus done extensive reading on the subject, that statement is pretty clear evidence that you need to broaden your sample.
-----------------
As someone who has gone through her own adolescence, and observed that of her friends, her daughter, her daughter's friends, and her friends' daughters, plus done extensive reading on the subject, that statement is pretty clear evidence that you need to broaden your sample.
90
@88(Learned Hand), the problem is the numbers: 'enough to make broad generalizations' probably means two or three in your experience, plus selected letters and experiences and stories you've read. The hundreds and hundreds of non-sucky teenage girls around simply went below your radar because they weren't doing anything particularly sucky so you didn't notice them.
You remind me of those women who claim all men are bastards and can't be trusted. Or even the one who once tried to prove to me in another comment thread that men can't really love women.
There are of course delusional people, as well as mean people who make others suffer. Both sexes have lots of these, believe me. But mostly, people are just meh-average. Neither sucky nor wowy, just OK.
The overwhelming majority of girls I've met were just trying to navigate through life and have a good time, just like the overwhelming majority of boys. I've seen girls and boys who were petty, judgmental, domineering, arrogant, had no empathy, etc. etc. etc., but they were not sufficiently many to draw broad generalizations.
Lots of people suck, but fortunately, most don't.
You remind me of those women who claim all men are bastards and can't be trusted. Or even the one who once tried to prove to me in another comment thread that men can't really love women.
There are of course delusional people, as well as mean people who make others suffer. Both sexes have lots of these, believe me. But mostly, people are just meh-average. Neither sucky nor wowy, just OK.
The overwhelming majority of girls I've met were just trying to navigate through life and have a good time, just like the overwhelming majority of boys. I've seen girls and boys who were petty, judgmental, domineering, arrogant, had no empathy, etc. etc. etc., but they were not sufficiently many to draw broad generalizations.
Lots of people suck, but fortunately, most don't.
91
@89 If you are trying to say that girls suck with regard to their mothers as well, I am certainly not going to fight you on that issue.
@90 Are you trying to be reasonable and intelligent? Don't you know this is the internet? Trying to be rational and make good points.....Gah! Makes me sick.
@90 Are you trying to be reasonable and intelligent? Don't you know this is the internet? Trying to be rational and make good points.....Gah! Makes me sick.
92
@88 seriously, you bring movies as your examples? Are you insane? Next you'll be saying that people with smooth blond hair are children of the corn.
In any case, you, like any other person making broad, baseless generalizations, sound profoundly stupid.
In any case, you, like any other person making broad, baseless generalizations, sound profoundly stupid.
93
Listen, do you want to know a secret?
Do you promise not to tell, whoa, oh
Closer, let me whisper in your ear
Say the words you long to hear
I'm in love with you, ooo
- Lennon/McCartney
First thing that came to mind...
Do you promise not to tell, whoa, oh
Closer, let me whisper in your ear
Say the words you long to hear
I'm in love with you, ooo
- Lennon/McCartney
First thing that came to mind...
96
@91, yes, of course I am. The internet is what you make of it. If you want it to suck, it will; if you don't, it won't. You're free to choose a site where they'll welcome your particular brand of unreasonable, unintelligent comments will be welcome, and you won't be sick there.
By the ways, some dads also suck. Mine did.
By the ways, some dads also suck. Mine did.
97
This may not apply to the LW's exact situation, but it applied to my life. My father was overly involved with my sexual development. He never (to my memory) crossed the "did something" line, but he made me very uncomfortable with how he looked at me, how he responded to me leaving the house or getting attention from boys, or...well, let's say that I was not encouraged to grow up. Not surprisingly, I was a late bloomer; I didn't really get crushes until high school, and my first date was just before prom.
My therapist recommended a book entitled "Emotional Incest: What to Do When a Parent's Love Rules Your Life." There are a number of examples in it that detail the subtle ways that parents can influence their children's development. There are times when a parent can be too involved in their child's life and development. When they start making a child into a surrogate (of themselves or to develop in them what they want in a mate), especially at the cost of their primary relationships (like with other adults, as peers, or between them and their spouse), and they keep their children from vital "growing up" experiences (like making friends, going outside the home, discouraging connections)...all those signal unhealthy tendencies.
This girl is obviously concerned. And I don't think that we should discount her simply because her father hasn't touched her (yet). It's possible that there are some boundary issues at work here, and she needs some distance and maybe some guidance to sort through it all.
My therapist recommended a book entitled "Emotional Incest: What to Do When a Parent's Love Rules Your Life." There are a number of examples in it that detail the subtle ways that parents can influence their children's development. There are times when a parent can be too involved in their child's life and development. When they start making a child into a surrogate (of themselves or to develop in them what they want in a mate), especially at the cost of their primary relationships (like with other adults, as peers, or between them and their spouse), and they keep their children from vital "growing up" experiences (like making friends, going outside the home, discouraging connections)...all those signal unhealthy tendencies.
This girl is obviously concerned. And I don't think that we should discount her simply because her father hasn't touched her (yet). It's possible that there are some boundary issues at work here, and she needs some distance and maybe some guidance to sort through it all.
98
It seems like there are several possible scenarios. Maybe LW's dad is a creep and is making inappropriate advances on her; maybe she's in the grip of anxiety and is misinterpreting something he muttered half-asleep; maybe she's actually hearing things (this does happen to people fairly often, even people who aren't schizophrenic, especially late at night).
But all of them boil down to the same thing: LW is in great, great distress, and part of her distress has to do with her father. That doesn't mean that he has actually molested her, or that he is going to molest her or even wants to molest her. But something about their relationship is disturbing to her.
No matter which of the above scenarios is closest to the truth, LW needs a good shrink to help her figure out what is going on, how it's affecting her, and what to do about it.
The good news: many, many people go through extreme periods of distress, like what you're going through right now, LW, and come out the other side. You're only 19. Now is the time to figure this all out, and there will still be time for college and the rest of what will surely be a full and happy life.
But all of them boil down to the same thing: LW is in great, great distress, and part of her distress has to do with her father. That doesn't mean that he has actually molested her, or that he is going to molest her or even wants to molest her. But something about their relationship is disturbing to her.
No matter which of the above scenarios is closest to the truth, LW needs a good shrink to help her figure out what is going on, how it's affecting her, and what to do about it.
The good news: many, many people go through extreme periods of distress, like what you're going through right now, LW, and come out the other side. You're only 19. Now is the time to figure this all out, and there will still be time for college and the rest of what will surely be a full and happy life.
99
So, family sexual abuse is depressingly common; LW's concerns may not be at all unfounded, and it's a little disturbing to me that so many people seem to be dismissing out of hand the possibility that her feelings are completely justified. On the other hand, she has good reason to doubt her own perceptions of things (depression, anxiety disorder), so Dan's read may be correct, and his advice is spot-on either way: address the problem directly with dad, LW, and take things from there based on how he responds. If you need to get out of dad's house, get out - if you're in or near a large city, there should be a few support organizations to which you can turn if you need to.
100
Also, I should add that people with psychological disorders or physical disabilities are disproportionately targeted by abusers because they tend to be more dependent on their abusers for material needs, and in the case of people with psychological disorders, they are less likely to be believed if they report the abuse. Please don't continue this systemic bias by dismissing the LW's concerns, Dan and Slog. She may be wrong, but she may also be right, and we don't have enough evidence either way to make a judgement here.
101
@John Horstman: Dad talked to himself in the bathroom at 5 in the morning, and tells his depressed teenage daughter she's beautiful. Where's the evidence that he's a creep?
102
@clashfan: The LW is uncomfortable with things as they stand. She's the one who is staying up at night worrying and dreading about how to relate her father. She lives at home, as a dependent, and she has such major depression and anxiety problems that she doesn't think she can handle college. She's writing because she's scared, upset, disgusted, and feels lost and alone. She's thinking that she has to run away or face the prospect of being molested or having her father kill himself.
We're on the outside here. All we have are the LW's account, and she doesn't fully understand the situation. It's up to someone (a professional therapist that the LW can trust) to get to the bottom of things. That's what people are advocating.
And say that the LW's perceptions are colored by depression and anxiety to the extent that she's having problems with reality and understanding normal interactions. Isn't that cause enough to see a reputable therapist?
If there's a situation in your life where you spend nights awake terrified and worrying, isn't that cause enough to ask for help? Or advice from someone trustworthy? So, even if there isn't anything of concern, it's worth taking the time to get a reliable outsider's opinion. Which is exactly what many people are advocating.
We're on the outside here. All we have are the LW's account, and she doesn't fully understand the situation. It's up to someone (a professional therapist that the LW can trust) to get to the bottom of things. That's what people are advocating.
And say that the LW's perceptions are colored by depression and anxiety to the extent that she's having problems with reality and understanding normal interactions. Isn't that cause enough to see a reputable therapist?
If there's a situation in your life where you spend nights awake terrified and worrying, isn't that cause enough to ask for help? Or advice from someone trustworthy? So, even if there isn't anything of concern, it's worth taking the time to get a reliable outsider's opinion. Which is exactly what many people are advocating.
103
@99: "So, family sexual abuse is depressingly common"
Except that she's never ever stated anything about sexual abuse.
"If you need to get out of dad's house, get out"
How about she see a therapist first before she begins the witch hunt and tells everyone that it's because she's afraid of "what her father may do"?
It probably isn't a terrible idea that she move out anyway, but a therapist will help no matter what she does.
Except that she's never ever stated anything about sexual abuse.
"If you need to get out of dad's house, get out"
How about she see a therapist first before she begins the witch hunt and tells everyone that it's because she's afraid of "what her father may do"?
It probably isn't a terrible idea that she move out anyway, but a therapist will help no matter what she does.
104
@98: "maybe she's actually hearing things (this does happen to people fairly often, even people who aren't schizophrenic, especially late at night)."
Yeah, I have sleep paralysis and get plenty of similarly weird auditory hallucinations. It's only related to the sleep disorder, though. Nothing aside from the hypnopompic/hypnogogic.
Expectations STRONGLY drive the content of the hallucinations and other pareidolia, so if she already has this idea in her head, it'll be "reinforced" by them.
Yeah, I have sleep paralysis and get plenty of similarly weird auditory hallucinations. It's only related to the sleep disorder, though. Nothing aside from the hypnopompic/hypnogogic.
Expectations STRONGLY drive the content of the hallucinations and other pareidolia, so if she already has this idea in her head, it'll be "reinforced" by them.
105
@98, 104: Absolutely. When I'm super homesick my mind will decide that vague voices are my family members talking in the next room. I'll even hear whole conversations only to open my eyes and realize that that wasn't possible since said family members aren't prone to chilling out in my living room hundreds of miles from their home(s).
LW needs help. She really needs to talk to a therapist and work on her issues. I can't imagine ever interpreting things the way she is.
LW needs help. She really needs to talk to a therapist and work on her issues. I can't imagine ever interpreting things the way she is.
107
88 is right in one regard. Adolescent women (15-24) are among the most narcissistic creatures out there. They are also among the most gullible. A strange combination.
That observation ranks up there, I think, with noting that adolescent males in the same age group like to take risks and seek thrills.
That observation ranks up there, I think, with noting that adolescent males in the same age group like to take risks and seek thrills.
108
@107: "are among the most narcissistic creatures out there. They are also among the most gullible. A strange combination"
I don't know if I necessarily agree with this conclusion, but self-deception would explain that combo.
I don't know if I necessarily agree with this conclusion, but self-deception would explain that combo.
109
@107, what makes you say that adolescent women are generally more narcissistic than adolescent men? What makes you say that that adolescent men take more risks than adolescent women? Are there studies that show that, or are you just going from cultural stereotypes?
110
To clarify my post @109, I think that adolescent male behavior is more dangerous than adolescent female behavior, but I think both groups have ramped up their risk taking the same amount from their childhood years -- it's just that girls are kept on a tighter leash than boys (as far as rough sports, roughhousing, unsupervised time, violence), so when both groups start taking more risks in adolescence, the girls' thrill-seeking behavior seems more tame than the boys' thrill-seeking behavior.
111
I second people saying, "she needs help," but I dislike the judgmental tone behind most of the other similar assertions here. As someone who suffers from an anxiety disorder myself, I can attest that it will really fucking WARP your ability to perceive people's intentions correctly and push you in the direction of scary, paranoid shit.
Get ye to a psychiatrist, TALWP. You're not seeing this situation clearly, whatever it is, and you're going to need some outside help. I certainly did and it's nothing to be ashamed of.
Get ye to a psychiatrist, TALWP. You're not seeing this situation clearly, whatever it is, and you're going to need some outside help. I certainly did and it's nothing to be ashamed of.
112
108/109: I also don't bother going to much trouble to show the exact shade of blue demonstrated by the sky, or the relative level of aggression cats display towards mice.
Feel free to think long and hard about any of the foregoing, though.
Feel free to think long and hard about any of the foregoing, though.
114
@112: Look, when you make specific claims about a wide-sweeping group of people, don't expect to get away with it without people calling bullshit on your "common sense" manner of speech. It's intellectually lazy.
116
There is something wrong with this family if she can't tell *anyone* what happened and she worries about her father being suicidal. Crazy thing, depression runs in families, and yes, some people make it to 45 being suicidal about "every little thing". For one thing, it's obvious from the strong reactions and rush to jump on this kid that most men would be devastated knowing their daughters interpreted their affection as wanting to fuck them. For another, there are plenty of people running around well past 45 who use threats of harming themselves to control the people who love them.
LW, if you are reading this, I hope you are seeing a therapist and I hope that you have a good relationship with that therapist. Sometimes it takes a while to find one that you click with who can be both supportive and challenging. You don't need a yes-man therapist, but it is also important that you feel heard and that your feelings are important. I grew up in a family with poor boundaries, and I can't know what your situation is like, but please, try to bring up in front of the family that you don't want compliments on your appearance. I also think it could be really helpful, if at all possible, to say "Dad, you woke me up peeing". Secrets have a way of growing bigger and becoming more poisonous. No matter what your dad's intent, this is having a real impact on you and it needs to be addressed. That doesn't mean that your dad intends to molest you, but being able to discuss boundaries and express your needs is an important skill, and it sounds like right now you feel unable to do that.
It sounds like you feel powerless and isolated right now. I know things are hard when you're depressed and anxious, but it's important that you take some actions in order to be less so. I'd start with volunteering--this is a way to build connections with other people, get out of the house, and feel good about the work you are doing. Volunteer work can also be great for getting a job when you feel ready for it-I know that I had a much easier time getting my first job because of my volunteer work. A lot of people find work with animals and gardening to be especially therapeutic, I would recommend one of those if it resonates with you at all. Another thing that can help a lot is exercise. Getting stronger is a way to get in touch with your power and develop your control over your environment. Make a plan towards independence and do something each day towards it, however small.
More...
LW, if you are reading this, I hope you are seeing a therapist and I hope that you have a good relationship with that therapist. Sometimes it takes a while to find one that you click with who can be both supportive and challenging. You don't need a yes-man therapist, but it is also important that you feel heard and that your feelings are important. I grew up in a family with poor boundaries, and I can't know what your situation is like, but please, try to bring up in front of the family that you don't want compliments on your appearance. I also think it could be really helpful, if at all possible, to say "Dad, you woke me up peeing". Secrets have a way of growing bigger and becoming more poisonous. No matter what your dad's intent, this is having a real impact on you and it needs to be addressed. That doesn't mean that your dad intends to molest you, but being able to discuss boundaries and express your needs is an important skill, and it sounds like right now you feel unable to do that.
It sounds like you feel powerless and isolated right now. I know things are hard when you're depressed and anxious, but it's important that you take some actions in order to be less so. I'd start with volunteering--this is a way to build connections with other people, get out of the house, and feel good about the work you are doing. Volunteer work can also be great for getting a job when you feel ready for it-I know that I had a much easier time getting my first job because of my volunteer work. A lot of people find work with animals and gardening to be especially therapeutic, I would recommend one of those if it resonates with you at all. Another thing that can help a lot is exercise. Getting stronger is a way to get in touch with your power and develop your control over your environment. Make a plan towards independence and do something each day towards it, however small.
117
@115: "yeah, because the Slog is all about data and footnotes."
You could just not pull subjective "facts" out of your ass, I suppose.
You could just not pull subjective "facts" out of your ass, I suppose.
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