Slog
News & ArtsThursday, February 9, 2012
News / Enviro US to Approve First New Nuclear Reactors Since 1978
Posted by Goldy on Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 9:44 AM
I guess the Fukushima disaster didn't kill the America's nuclear revival after all:
The Nuclear Regulatory Commission is expected to approve Southern Co.'s request to build two nuclear reactors in the southern state of Georgia.
If approved, the $14 billion reactors could begin operating as soon as 2016 and 2017.
Or, if history is any guide, the $30 billion reactors could begin operating sometime after 2020.
Personally, I wouldn't mind approving a few more of these new class of nuclear reactors, if we could shut down some of those crappy old reactors in exchange. And, you know, figure out what we're gonna do with all that nuclear waste.
1
This state has a troubled history with nuclear. The Washington Public Power Supply System (called WPPSS and pronounced WHOOPS!) from the get-go was supposed to build a bunch of nuclear reactors that were going to relegate our hydroelectric dams to being backup generators. They had plans for upwards of 20 nuclear plants, and sold bonds to pay for the construction of five. Only one was ever successfully built and brought online. When they defaulted on the bonds, it was the largest public bond default in American history. Today in most parts of WA, 10%-20% of your electric bill goes to paying down debt on nuclear plants that were never built.
We need to be vigilant in this state and guard against making the same mistake twice. WPPSS changed its name to "Energy Northwest." They need to be watched. Read the history at History Link:
http://www.historylink.org/index.cfm?Dis…
We need to be vigilant in this state and guard against making the same mistake twice. WPPSS changed its name to "Energy Northwest." They need to be watched. Read the history at History Link:
http://www.historylink.org/index.cfm?Dis…
3
Nuclear Waste is a political problem, not a technical problem. It's pretty easy to recycle and reuse the stuff. It's just not legal at the moment.
It's also not really that difficult to store the stuff. Remembering that the more dangerous it is, the shorter period of time it's dangerous for. The difficulty is that no one wants it near them. Anyone hears the word nuclear and just freaks out.
It's also not really that difficult to store the stuff. Remembering that the more dangerous it is, the shorter period of time it's dangerous for. The difficulty is that no one wants it near them. Anyone hears the word nuclear and just freaks out.
5
@4 I am aware that the story is about Georgia. I was adding to the conversation that whenever nuclear is being discussed, Washingtonians should remember WPPSS. We're still paying for it. Sometimes a point about salmon can be made when we're discussing trout. I thought it was relevant.
6
WPPSS is one of the big reasons why we haven't built built any new reactors in decades (that, and Three Mile Island). It's totally relevant to this discussion. It was a financial disaster that we are still paying for 30 years later. A lesson people should keep in mind, particularly younger SLOG readers that weren't even around when this happened.
7
Well Toby, its either coal plants or nuclear reactors to power our transition from gas to electric cars. Solar is nice, but it cant compete with the megawatt output of a single nuclear reactor and nobody is really investing in geothermal power, thats basically in its infantcy.
I am told that pebble bead nuclear reactors have many failsafes that prevent a meltdown of the reactor. Since we havent had a reactor built in decades, all the existing ones NEED to be replaced soon as they are at risk to flooding that can kill a backup cooling generator.
I am told that pebble bead nuclear reactors have many failsafes that prevent a meltdown of the reactor. Since we havent had a reactor built in decades, all the existing ones NEED to be replaced soon as they are at risk to flooding that can kill a backup cooling generator.
8
@3: You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, and are thoroughly full of shit.
There is no solution for nuclear waste besides burial, and that is not much of a solution.
There is no solution for nuclear waste besides burial, and that is not much of a solution.
9
@8 -- I was reading that and thought it was Will in Seattle...
-- And remember GOLDY, today's "new class" of reactors are tomorrow's "crappy old reactors." We're a long way from having the whole life-cycle figured out.
-- And remember GOLDY, today's "new class" of reactors are tomorrow's "crappy old reactors." We're a long way from having the whole life-cycle figured out.
10
@8: @3 is right. It's just not legal to recycle "nuclear waste" because that would create a commercial market for plutonium.
There's a recycle system with nuclear fuel where the waste of one type of reactor becomes the fuel for the other type. And the big surprise... is that the waste of the second reactor is once again suitable fuel for the first one. [oversimplified]
There's a recycle system with nuclear fuel where the waste of one type of reactor becomes the fuel for the other type. And the big surprise... is that the waste of the second reactor is once again suitable fuel for the first one. [oversimplified]
11
@8 He's perfectly correct, see about fuel reprocessing that can reduce the radioactivity of waste by 99.9%, and has been illegal in US for over 3 decades and continues to be so (thanks Obama):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_rep…
"Reprocessing of civilian fuel has long been employed in Europe, at the COGEMA La Hague site in France, the Sellafield site in the United Kingdom, the Mayak Chemical Combine in Russia, and at sites such as the Tokai plant in Japan, the Tarapur plant in India, and briefly at the West Valley Reprocessing Plant in the United States.
In October 1976, fear of nuclear weapons proliferation (especially after India demonstrated nuclear weapons capabilities using reprocessing technology) led President Gerald Ford to issue a Presidential directive to indefinitely suspend the commercial reprocessing and recycling of plutonium in the U.S. On April 7, 1977, President Jimmy Carter banned the reprocessing of commercial reactor spent nuclear fuel. "
Other countries who have brought environmentalists and corporations together to discuss waste plans instead of treating each other like insane evil enemies have had great success, like Sweden and Finland, rather than the Yucca Mountain Debacle.
See:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-level_radioactive_waste_management#Europe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_rep…
"Reprocessing of civilian fuel has long been employed in Europe, at the COGEMA La Hague site in France, the Sellafield site in the United Kingdom, the Mayak Chemical Combine in Russia, and at sites such as the Tokai plant in Japan, the Tarapur plant in India, and briefly at the West Valley Reprocessing Plant in the United States.
In October 1976, fear of nuclear weapons proliferation (especially after India demonstrated nuclear weapons capabilities using reprocessing technology) led President Gerald Ford to issue a Presidential directive to indefinitely suspend the commercial reprocessing and recycling of plutonium in the U.S. On April 7, 1977, President Jimmy Carter banned the reprocessing of commercial reactor spent nuclear fuel. "
Other countries who have brought environmentalists and corporations together to discuss waste plans instead of treating each other like insane evil enemies have had great success, like Sweden and Finland, rather than the Yucca Mountain Debacle.
See:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-level_radioactive_waste_management#Europe
12
@8 No. He's actually right. To a point. The Problem is at some point, even AFTER recycling, there is going to be waste you will have to deal with. But it's not the earth killing problem it's made out to be. Unlike global warming. Which is caused by the energy you and I are using right now.
13
@8 There is vitrification, but that's just a gleam in an engineers eye right now. And it doesn't even eliminate the waste, just shortens the half-life.
WPPSS only had the one reactor out in Hanford, incidentally the EXACT same design as Fukushima. The one they tried to build out in Elma was never finished and never brought online. It's an office park now that is loomed over by two creepy as hell looking cooling towers. Why they didn't demolish it like the one in Oregon i do not know.
WPPSS only had the one reactor out in Hanford, incidentally the EXACT same design as Fukushima. The one they tried to build out in Elma was never finished and never brought online. It's an office park now that is loomed over by two creepy as hell looking cooling towers. Why they didn't demolish it like the one in Oregon i do not know.
14
So WHY was WPPSS such a clusterfuck? Just saying "Hey, there was a clusterfuck, don't forget!" isn't real useful without understanding what went wrong in the first place.
15
Heeeey??? Looky at all these nuclear explosions below, it's not as if there's been a remarkable increase in breast cancer and other forms, now has there?????
http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/f…
(Clip for your viewing enjoyment at link below.)
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/how-wor…
But this doc says nukes are A.OK????
http://www.sandiegoreader.com/weblogs/ne…
Oopsy! Wrong link (bad stuff on nukes at that one, try this one....)
http://www.areva.com/mediatheque/libloca…
It's all "areva" at Areva --- and the Federalist Society highly recommends them.
http://www.areva.com/EN/group-57/global-…
http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/f…
(Clip for your viewing enjoyment at link below.)
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/how-wor…
But this doc says nukes are A.OK????
http://www.sandiegoreader.com/weblogs/ne…
Oopsy! Wrong link (bad stuff on nukes at that one, try this one....)
http://www.areva.com/mediatheque/libloca…
It's all "areva" at Areva --- and the Federalist Society highly recommends them.
http://www.areva.com/EN/group-57/global-…
17
@11 four of my family members work/have worked at West Valley (20 minutes from where I grew up). Nuclear when done properly is much safer than other forms of energy (see: coal), and the US Government has had sites in the Yuca mountains ready to go for quite some time for storage of materials, but it's been delayed multiple times by NIMBY and political opponents.
West Valley has been a pioneer of a new technique using glass to seal waste as opposed to barrels, and it's quite fascinating really.
Ultimately, while I'm grateful that the industry has been good to my family, even I'm a little hesitant to throw all my support behind nuclear energy.
West Valley has been a pioneer of a new technique using glass to seal waste as opposed to barrels, and it's quite fascinating really.
Ultimately, while I'm grateful that the industry has been good to my family, even I'm a little hesitant to throw all my support behind nuclear energy.
18
Can someone explain why reactors have multiple fail safes to shut them down instead of multiple default-off systems required to keep them going? Haven't we had enough hubris about fail safe designs yet? Let's try having to keep 10 balls in the air for the thing to work instead.
I can't believe we're still talking about backup generators to prevent catastrophes.
I can't believe we're still talking about backup generators to prevent catastrophes.
19
Oh, nuclear waste is ONLY a political problem. That should be easy then. We're great at solving political problems!
Remember when people used to disagree about taxes and health care and abortion and religion and climate change and prayer in schools and the gays and traffic congestion and mass transit and police brutality and foreign policy? And so on? Remember those days? You're probably too young. Ask your grandpa.
We're GOOD at fixing political problems.
So what if nuclear waste reprocessing puts more bomb making material out there. Keeping that out of the wrong hands is merely a political problem. Easy peasy.
Same as predicting how intense an earthquake you might get some day. Easy stuff.
Remember when people used to disagree about taxes and health care and abortion and religion and climate change and prayer in schools and the gays and traffic congestion and mass transit and police brutality and foreign policy? And so on? Remember those days? You're probably too young. Ask your grandpa.
We're GOOD at fixing political problems.
So what if nuclear waste reprocessing puts more bomb making material out there. Keeping that out of the wrong hands is merely a political problem. Easy peasy.
Same as predicting how intense an earthquake you might get some day. Easy stuff.
20
@14 The financing and contractor scams. It was a ballsy real estate & construction hustle disguised as a public works project.
The idea of publicly financing highly efficient power plants is a good one. Unfortunately, when a government agency takes on such a large project with so much money involved, it is quickly overrun by the wolves after that money.
The idea of publicly financing highly efficient power plants is a good one. Unfortunately, when a government agency takes on such a large project with so much money involved, it is quickly overrun by the wolves after that money.
21
Can someone explain why reactors have multiple fail safes to shut them down instead of multiple default-off systems required to keep them going?
That's the principle behind passively safe reactors: when operating outside of the design parameters the reaction is just not possible anymore. Most modern designs use passive safety.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_nuc…
That's the principle behind passively safe reactors: when operating outside of the design parameters the reaction is just not possible anymore. Most modern designs use passive safety.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_nuc…
23
@21
How can that be when we have what just happened in Japan, along with all the news stories stating that similar designs are everywhere? And, as I said, we're still talking about backup generators for cooling reactors yet to be built. Why are reactors designed so that you need to do anything at all when trouble erupts? You should be able to just walk away, i.e. without human intervention fission is impossible.
How can that be when we have what just happened in Japan, along with all the news stories stating that similar designs are everywhere? And, as I said, we're still talking about backup generators for cooling reactors yet to be built. Why are reactors designed so that you need to do anything at all when trouble erupts? You should be able to just walk away, i.e. without human intervention fission is impossible.
24
@10, 11, 12:
No, again totally full of shit.
Not only is it not really economically feasible to reprocess spent fuel, all it really does is reduce the physical volume of the radioactive waste that still needs to be stored.
People have this idea that reprocessing will solve the waste problem, which is a completely ignorant assertion.
http://web.mit.edu/mitei/docs/spotlights…
@12: "But it's not the earth killing problem it's made out to be."
No, it's just the people killing problem and permanent evacuation problem.
Fucking apologists. Fuck off and die.
No, again totally full of shit.
Not only is it not really economically feasible to reprocess spent fuel, all it really does is reduce the physical volume of the radioactive waste that still needs to be stored.
People have this idea that reprocessing will solve the waste problem, which is a completely ignorant assertion.
http://web.mit.edu/mitei/docs/spotlights…
@12: "But it's not the earth killing problem it's made out to be."
No, it's just the people killing problem and permanent evacuation problem.
Fucking apologists. Fuck off and die.
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