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Tuesday, February 7, 2012

Yesterday's Best Arguments Against Gay Marriage

Posted by on Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 6:00 AM

As many of you noted, Ken Hutcherson doesn't always give the most coherent testimony.

So. Did anything more compelling come out of the mouths of gay marriage opponents at yesterday's hearing in front of the House Judiciary Committee?

Hit play and you'll get it all, eventually. But just in case you don't have time to sit through every last bit of the post-Hutch testimony, I've condensed the "best" arguments for you right here:

John Geis of the Family Policy Institute of Washington: "Before you tear down a fence, you should have an understanding of why it was put up.”

Kennon Forester, citizen and farmer: “In farmers' terms, when we put two bulls in a pen we don’t get a calf.”

Allison Vance, 13, who said she'd decided to testify on her own, but would be reading testimony “partly written" by her father: “In order to walk properly, you must wear one left shoe and one right shoe." (Trying to make a same-sex family work, Vance said, is "like trying to walk with two left shoes.”)

Jennifer Morris, citizen: “Today my main message is that specific tools are for specific purposes… If you were going to build a skyscraper, you would not be putting bolts with bolts and nuts with nuts, because the structure wouldn’t go up. And if it did it would probably fall apart, probably destroying many lives… I feel very demeaned by the fact that roles don’t seem to matter."

 

Comments (53) RSS

Oldest First Unregistered On Registered On Add a comment
1
To Jennifer Morris: My gay friends feel demeaned because you don't think THEY matter. So fuck off.
Posted by Mike in Olympia on February 7, 2012 at 6:08 AM · Report this
2
She feels demeaned huh? Well I'm sure her husband will console her when she gets home.

Posted by Root on February 7, 2012 at 6:12 AM · Report this
Ernie1 3
What the fuck is wrong with people? Don't these jerks have anything better to do?

I'm with @1 on this one.... Fuck off!
Posted by Ernie1 on February 7, 2012 at 6:16 AM · Report this
4
I don't know why the above two commenters seem so dismissive! It seems obvious to me that when two bulls try to tear down a skyscraper, they better be wearing one right shoe and one left shoe in order to walk properly. Therefore, marriage equality is clearly just demeaning to us all.
Posted by planned barrenhood on February 7, 2012 at 6:22 AM · Report this
Posted by Banna http://www.ucp.org on February 7, 2012 at 6:28 AM · Report this
Allyn 6
So what they’re saying is that we’re all basically interchangeable cogs? As long as one partner has lady bits and the other partner has man bits, that’s all you need to successfully raise children. Wha?

So they’re all for arranged marriage, right? Since any partner with the correct coordinating bits will result in children, the government should be matching us all up just to make sure no one gets missed. And if anyone’s bits are unable to produce a child, the government can re-arrange the coordinating bits so that someone with reproducible bits gets matched with someone else.
Posted by Allyn on February 7, 2012 at 6:46 AM · Report this
Rotten666 7
@4 Great fucking comment.

I'm glad I'm not an anti gay bigot. I don't have the energy for the required mental gymnastics.
Posted by Rotten666 on February 7, 2012 at 6:56 AM · Report this
8
And once again all it comes down to for this people is the fucking. Since they're so concerned, they should know that we've come up with a number of perfectly workable methods which can be seen for free on the internet.
Posted by Sean on February 7, 2012 at 7:00 AM · Report this
Vince 9
People are not bulls, bolts, fences, skyscrapers or shoes you idiots.
Posted by Vince on February 7, 2012 at 7:05 AM · Report this
10
The "demeaned" comment is priceless. Translation: "I've bought the idea that women deserve less than men because, you know, roles, and I'm in a really crappy marriage with a pig, and if marriage equality shows that all that is unneccessary then I'd have to admit that my current situation is really . . . demeaning. So don't do it, so I can feel better about my choices."
Posted by Margaret L. on February 7, 2012 at 7:16 AM · Report this
Big Matt G 11
@6 FTW!
Posted by Big Matt G on February 7, 2012 at 7:22 AM · Report this
12
To Allison Vance (and her offstage father): You said "Trying to make a same-sex family work is like trying to walk with two left shoes."

As you're only 13 years old, I'm going to assume you have little or no experience with same-sex families, but you can rest assured, honey, that my family works just fine.
Posted by Clayton on February 7, 2012 at 7:24 AM · Report this
13
so it looks like josh powell's cogs worked out pretty well. this is the problem with douchebag bigots, they fail to see the forest for the trees...

also, you can still walk w/ 2 left shoes on - it's just hard. guess what, raising kids is hard, doesn't matter if you are gay or straight. it may be even harder if you are a gay couple - most of the gay couples i know that have adopted kids ended up with the ones that had head tough lives and no straight couples would adopt.
Posted by hutchisadouche on February 7, 2012 at 7:24 AM · Report this
14
Typo- You mean “Two “BULLS” not pulls” :)

Posted by Tacomalover on February 7, 2012 at 7:28 AM · Report this
15
Hey, gay-marriage-opposing gentlefolk,

You are clueless and your arguments are trash. Here is why:

MARRIAGE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SEX OR WITH CHILDREN! NOTHING AT ALL! ZERO!

Let me elaborate. Sex is a natural function. It predates marriage by, oh, I dunno, maybe about a billion years. It's part of our natural heritage, and stronger than all of our institutions. People have sex whether they're married or not. Children are born whether or not their parents are married. People can get married regardless of whether or not they intend to have sex. The State does not care whether or not a couple have sex, or bear children. A marriage license is not conditional on these things.

Therefore, empirically (scientifically, logically, and legally), it is impossible to demonstrate a mandatory linkage between marriage and sex or marriage and children.

In our society, here's what marriage actually is: It's a commitment to a next-of-kin. Someone to love you, to care for you in sickness and in health, to share your life and your economic responsibilities, and to bury you when you die.

Everyone should be able to select someone they love and want to live with as their next of kin. That's what marriage is. If they want to have sex, make babies, and raise a family, and they're capable of it, fine, but people can do that (and do do that, all the time) without being married, just as well.

Marriage: It's all about next-of-kin. Get over yourselves and stop thinking about sex all the time, you fucking perverts!

Posted by Brooklyn Reader on February 7, 2012 at 7:29 AM · Report this
16
I know Allison Vance is only 13, but man what a little bitch. A homeschooled, insulated little girl with no real world experience or knowledge who thinks her superior fucking opinion on something she doesn't know shit about should be a guide for all the country on the subject of gay marriage.
Posted by hal on February 7, 2012 at 7:31 AM · Report this
17
@16 Hey now. She'll probably grow out of it once she has the opportunity to escape her parents' house/their abitlity to cram words into her mouth. Also, since when does being young (or uninformed - not the same, as some of these old married people don't know shit about marriage either) mean we shouldn't give a shit about someone's opinion? I'll bet you were totally down with pro-gray kids speaking in some public forum - like, say, in high school.

Don't attack kids, dipshit.
Posted by sahara29 on February 7, 2012 at 7:43 AM · Report this
18
Baudy! They seem awfully focused on penises and vaginas and various metaphors thereof.

Agree with comment about marriage not being about sex - ask any married dude. And, I have easily as many married friends not bucking for a calf or a skyscraper as want to become parents.

Let the opponents keep talking. They sound stupider by the second.
Posted by JimJewell on February 7, 2012 at 8:00 AM · Report this
Matt from Denver 19
I wonder if Hutch thinks Allison's father is "the worst," too?
Posted by Matt from Denver on February 7, 2012 at 8:00 AM · Report this
DOUG. 20
Is Allison Vance the daughter of Chris Vance?
Posted by DOUG. http://www.dougsvotersguide.com on February 7, 2012 at 8:04 AM · Report this
Helenka (also a Canuck) 21
Eli,

I wish you'd chosen a more accurate title for your article. I was initially hesitant to watch the video because I thought it would be ALL negative presentations. But at least there were some positive arguments made by people who are living under the current discriminatory law.
Posted by Helenka (also a Canuck) on February 7, 2012 at 8:04 AM · Report this
22
What @10 said. People get really nervous when you start taking even implied swings at the patriarchy.
Posted by eptified on February 7, 2012 at 8:06 AM · Report this
seatackled 23
Komen loses a boob.

APNewsBreak: Komen exec quits after funding flap


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg…
Posted by seatackled on February 7, 2012 at 8:13 AM · Report this
raggeddog 24
I love all the metaphors these morons employ because they are so afraid of coming out and just saying that they oppose gay marriage because gay sex is gross. And as has been said a thousand times before, gay people are having sex whether they're married or not so I'm not sure what these people are actually fighting so hard against.

And Allison Vance is right - trying to make a same sex family work is like trying to walk with two left shoes. Both are difficult and sometimes uncomfortable. The difference is that she and other ignorant bigots like her are the only reason same sex families have a hard time. If they would shut the hell up and crawl back in the hole they came from then making a same sex family work would be easy.
Posted by raggeddog on February 7, 2012 at 8:22 AM · Report this
Xenos 25
Again, opponents of marriage equality get their 'day,' and again, peeling back the religious arguments, all we are left with is a threadbare appeal to tradition.

This faulty reasoning would give me hope when the question comes before the Supreme Court, but Scalia and Thomas' reasoning usually does boil down to, "because always, humpf." How dishonest, how cowardly.
Posted by Xenos on February 7, 2012 at 8:23 AM · Report this
26
So since it's hard for you to walk with two left shoes, we should require people born with two left feet to still wear matching pairs of shoes?
Posted by Ben on February 7, 2012 at 8:58 AM · Report this
Daddy Love 27
Men and women will continue to exist after this bill. And those among them who choose to legally adopt the state-approved benefits accompanying committed cohabitation are and will ever be still able to do so.

I gotta say I love "theadbare appeal to tradition." I would add, an even more threadbare appeal to the majority to ignore the concerns of the minority. "You don't have to care about THEM," they say. Bring back slavery! Everyone was happier then. Every one who COUNTs, at least.
Posted by Daddy Love on February 7, 2012 at 9:02 AM · Report this
28
@17

Go fuck yourself. This little twit is rallying to deny gay families any rights while smearing them as some sort of abomination to nature and your pissed because I might hurt her fee-fees?

I don't care if she's "only" thirteen. She's a thirteen year old homophobic asshole who took time off from doing her math homework with Mommy to come out and speak in a public forum on something she doesn't know a fuck thing about.

Get your priorities straight dear. If people really grow out of their hate once they get older, than where are all of these adult assholes coming from, huh? This bitch will be the same at 23, 33, 43 etc as she is at 13.

Now, I'm off to my local high school pro-gay rally. Twat.
Posted by hal on February 7, 2012 at 9:05 AM · Report this
29
@28 Why, yes, I do have a twat! How clever of you to point that out.

I don't give a shit about her feelings. It's about the other adults in the room, watching how you treat children and judging your cause by your conduct. Also, recognize the amount of power this kid has: she's a fucking puppet who read a statement her dad wrote. Save your vitriol for kids for when it really matters, like when you see this kid deliberately bashing someone else. It's a little thing called "strategy."
Posted by sahara29 on February 7, 2012 at 9:35 AM · Report this
seandr 30
Allison Vance, 13, who said she'd decided to testify on her own, but would be reading testimony “partly written" by her father

In a few years, someone is going to be very pissed at dad for enshrining her on the wrong side of history.
Posted by seandr on February 7, 2012 at 9:39 AM · Report this
31
@28 Also, how can you possibly believe that people don't change their minds as they grow up or just grow old? Twenty-five years ago, people were dying of AIDS and had to do totally radical shit to have their humanity recognized at all. Now, we're winning popular votes on civil rights - something that isn't true for race-based civil rights, which had to rely on the courts - because people, dragged kicking and screaming, changed their minds. And the prognosis is only up from here as the die-hard bigots, well, die off.

You need to examine your persecution complex, sweetie. Bless your heart.
Posted by sahara29 on February 7, 2012 at 9:41 AM · Report this
ScrawnyKayaker 32
@23 wins all the day's threads.
Posted by ScrawnyKayaker on February 7, 2012 at 9:49 AM · Report this
33
My attempt to be as persuasive as the others listed:

Gays already have have hairdressing and musical theater. Why do they want marraige as well?

Posted by not Dan Savage on February 7, 2012 at 10:02 AM · Report this
34
@15: Amen! You need to be down there testifying, because that is a solid and logical argument.
Posted by MLM on February 7, 2012 at 10:02 AM · Report this
35
Those poor bozos only got to complain to 7 legislators and a secretary. I'm sure they felt that their concerns were taken seriously <--- sarcasm
Posted by Schweighsr on February 7, 2012 at 10:15 AM · Report this
Posted by venomlash on February 7, 2012 at 10:30 AM · Report this
Looking For a Better Read 37
All of these arguments boil down to the following: "This is the way we've always done things. Change is scary. And, THE SEX."
Posted by Looking For a Better Read on February 7, 2012 at 10:38 AM · Report this
38
@34 I'm not sure they want to hear from the likes of me, a New York resident. Plus, it's a long haul. However, if you're anywhere near the hearings, I'd be pleased to let you use my words if you haven't got any better ones. (That goes for everyone, by the way.)
Posted by Brooklyn Reader on February 7, 2012 at 11:02 AM · Report this
39
Argument from metaphor is a logical fallacy argument from metaphor is a logical fallacy ARGUMENT FROM METAPHOR IS A LOGICAL FALLACY!!!
Posted by Ruke on February 7, 2012 at 11:23 AM · Report this
40
@23 I think you've just topped every clever headline ever printed on the front page of the New York Post. I stand in awe.
Posted by Brooklyn Reader on February 7, 2012 at 11:25 AM · Report this
41
@38, ah! Brooklyn Reader = truth in advertising, then.

Well, I will use it when I get a chance.
Posted by MLM on February 7, 2012 at 11:26 AM · Report this
JensR 42
@39 I was just about to say the same thing. What kind of idiot does this? It would be like saying that since Morris Dancers are basicly idiots with too much time on their hands so must anyone named Morris be an idiot with too much time on her hands... And why the hell is a 13-year old testifying?

I wouldn't trust a 13yo to pick out my clothes for the day much less let them have a say in the much bigger question of whether religious belief or social equality is the more relevant issue in a modern society.
Posted by JensR http://ohyran.se on February 7, 2012 at 11:45 AM · Report this
MacCrocodile 43
@36 - Dammit, venomlash. NSFW!
Posted by MacCrocodile http://maccrocodile.com/ on February 7, 2012 at 11:48 AM · Report this
44
For a homophobe, Jennifer Morris should does know a lot about rubbing nuts together.
Posted by Texans on February 7, 2012 at 1:34 PM · Report this
Geni 45
@10 - I think you won the Internets for today.
Posted by Geni on February 7, 2012 at 4:26 PM · Report this
46
wait.. are these 'phobes testifying or auditioning for a job as the next top t-shirt slogan-writer?
Posted by you can't win a race wearing a jackboot and a stilletto on February 7, 2012 at 6:01 PM · Report this
47
Wow, I've never heard so much anger and cussing over "marriage". Get a life people and keep your sexual preferences to yourselves - ALL of you.
Posted by U.S. Constitution fan on February 8, 2012 at 3:35 PM · Report this
DickDave 48
@47 - Fucking dipshit.
Posted by DickDave on February 8, 2012 at 5:13 PM · Report this
49
I've never heard of so much anger and cussing regarding "marriage" - you people should get a life and keep your sexual preferences to yourselves - ALL of you.
Posted by U.S. Constitution fan on February 8, 2012 at 7:47 PM · Report this
Brandon Arkell 50
Yes. If you want to make babies, you have to put a penis in a vagina. And if you don't want to make babies (like gay people having sex with each other and living in loving, committed relationships), you don't have to put a penis in a vagina. In fact, it would be silly to do so.
Posted by Brandon Arkell http://www.brandonarkell.com on February 9, 2012 at 3:02 AM · Report this
anarchy burger 51
@50 technically, you only have to put sperm in a vagina. No, strike that, technically you only have to put sperm on an egg, and then put the egg in a uterus. (Right? I don't work with mammals but I'm pretty sure on this point.)
Posted by anarchy burger on February 9, 2012 at 5:56 PM · Report this
52
If what they say is true, then there would be no gay people, since they all were created by, and the majority raised by heterosexuals.

Or, conversely, if married heterosexuals are natural and perfect, then gay is one natural outcome, hence perfect.

In 13 yr old terms then, it is the bolt and nut that created the bolt in search of a bolt...to paraphrase the 1964 classic: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0057808/

Posted by Supreme Ruler Of The Universe http://_ on February 11, 2012 at 10:27 AM · Report this
53
Your all idiots. Gay marriage shouldn't exist. Not because I dont want it to, but because its a common mental illness brought on by having trouble liking the opposite sex. Don't be in denial. Every gay person I have met said that they can't stand women and they can't imagine having a relationship with one. Only very few like both, those have another story. And there is no such thing as gay rights. If there is, then I want my own rights to specific things I like. I want to have 4 arms and three penises. I want to be able to marry 10 wives and adopt monkeys as my children. I want to smoke drugs, because it makes me "happy"... It would be natural according to what homosexuals say. Im evolving, so I want to do anything I want. You guys are also forgetting that guy's have a penis, and women have a "hole for the penis", there is a reason for the "hole". And don't say guys also have a hole. lol Thats for your shit, not penises. Its also part of our dna. So there is no evolution happening with gays. And the population will increase slower than the normal rate because of gays and lesbians. Slower population rise, slower rate of technological improvements. I know the technology wouldn't improve much if gays didn't exist, but in the long run it makes a huge difference. I don't hate gays or lesbians. I just don't approve of this spreading to the rest of humanity. You can't just say being gay is a part of evolution. That would mean anything I do is also a part of evolution. Whats normal is defined by what has been normal for a "longer period" of time. Again, not because I set those rules, but because if we continue to change what is normal(without change in our dna), then we really don't know what is normal or moral anymore. So we should all just get 3 penises and maybe a 4 boobies for the heck of it.
More...
Posted by Man on May 9, 2012 at 9:52 AM · Report this

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