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News & ArtsTuesday, February 7, 2012
Savage Love SL Letter of the Day: Tower of Label
Posted by Dan Savage on Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 3:04 PM
Hey, Dan! I love your column; read it every chance I get. I'm a 19-year-old girl with a question. I consider myself straight in the respect that I could only ever see myself in a romantic, committed relationship with a man, and thus far I've only ever been with dudes. However, I find women extremely attractive and the idea of fucking a lady turns me WAY on. Like I said, I don't feel like I could ever be in a long-term relationship with a woman (although I'm not opposed to trying new things) and don't particularly have the desire to do so, but they are so hot! What would I be "classified" as? Not that I'm all into labels, I'm just curious. Would I be a bi-curious heterosexual? Or just straight up bisexual? Or something else? Just wondering! Thanks for the help,
Can't Understand, Need Tutorial
My response—a brief one, with a link—after the jump.
···············
You're bi.
You're bi in the exact same way lots of other bisexuals are bisexual. Embrace the label, CUNT, and don't actively or passively mislead any of the girls you're into. And trust me: there are lots of women out there—bi, lesbian, and straight-identified—who either don't want a relationship or who won't want a relationship with you. (Read that again, CUNT, and try not to mix those two things up.) You'll get plenty of pussy, if pussy is what you want, but don't let the women you hit on, flirt with, or fuck make the entirely reasonable assumption that you're open to dating them—not unless you want someone to slap a "misleading bitch" label on your forehead.
1
The only person I've heard pronounce "Babel" to rhyme with "label" was Elton John back in his "who, me gay?" days.
2
Don't ask stupid questions, cunt
your sexuality is hardwired, innate
the supreme one has said that you are bi
go forth and binicate and let us never speak of this again
your sexuality is hardwired, innate
the supreme one has said that you are bi
go forth and binicate and let us never speak of this again
4
What Dan said. You could be classified as a 2 on the Kinsey scale; you're attracted to women more than once in a blue moon, but you're more hetero than homo in that you're only romantically attracted to men.
6
At age 19, depending on where and how the LW was raised, the conviction that she "could only ever see myself in a romantic, committed relationship with a man" may be a consequence of a) attitudes of others around her subconsciously absorbed and integrated, b) not having seen or known two women in committed, happy LTRs. But I suppose what Dan wrote covers those possibilities. Explore ethically, LW, and find where you belong.
11
"I don't feel like I could ever be in a long-term relationship with a woman (although I'm not opposed to trying new things) and don't particularly have the desire to do so"
Sounds like hedging to me. (That is, she sounds open to dating women, and other "new things"...) I'm with rob, in thinking that once she encounters a wider range of dating relationships (and a wider range of women), she may very well revise her romantic interests.
Makes sense to tell women early on that she has only ever dated men, and indicate some level of confusion about her sexuality. No one will blame her for that at 19, and it will give people some sense of what they can and can't expect from her (an enthusiastic fucking, on the one hand, and some degree of confused drama on the other).
Raising a glass with ya'll in celebration...
Sounds like hedging to me. (That is, she sounds open to dating women, and other "new things"...) I'm with rob, in thinking that once she encounters a wider range of dating relationships (and a wider range of women), she may very well revise her romantic interests.
Makes sense to tell women early on that she has only ever dated men, and indicate some level of confusion about her sexuality. No one will blame her for that at 19, and it will give people some sense of what they can and can't expect from her (an enthusiastic fucking, on the one hand, and some degree of confused drama on the other).
Raising a glass with ya'll in celebration...
12
hey, I used to think this too (in high school and early college almost a decade ago). funny enough, it turned out that I *only* want to have relationships with women and every once in a while be open to sex with a dude. funny how life surprises you sometimes.
14
Why are people so suddenly afraid of the "Bi" label (Cynthia Nixon!)? It makes it so much easier for those of us strictly into dick.
15
Babel always rhymes with label. That said, all the "have you heard of this before" / "how common is this?" / "what would you call me?" questions perplex me. (Then I spend 5 minutes at a BDSM party and INAVARIABLY get asked, "So, what are you?")
17
@13 in my experience "heteroflexible" is for people who don't get bent out of shape by some same-sex action, particularly in the context of a threesome or sex party. I'd say it's less applicable to someone who actively fantasizes about fucking someone of the same sex. (That said, it's a newish term, so feel free to explain why you think I'm wrong...)
18
Until she actually does anything about it ("thus far I've only ever been with dudes"), is she really even worthy of a label? I mean, I think women other than my wife are totally hot, and would like to have dirty, dirty sex with them, but I do not. That does not make me an adulterer, it just makes me horny.
19
Funny thing. I was just talking to a lady yesterday who was in a very similar position. Due to her upbringing, she did not figure out that she was a lesbian until she was married with a child. At 19 she still fully believed that she was straight, and just not much into sex.
If CUNT at 19 recognizes that she is attracted to women, that is a big head start. She may very well be bi all of her life. But being open to the options is the only way to get those questions answered.
If CUNT at 19 recognizes that she is attracted to women, that is a big head start. She may very well be bi all of her life. But being open to the options is the only way to get those questions answered.
20
Hmm... the LW wonders what she is? I'll tell her: she's a girl in need of a hot hot date with another horny, bi, 19-year old girl.
And she's in need of someone *ahem* to document said date on video so she can observe it later.
And she's in need of someone *ahem* to document said date on video so she can observe it later.
21
I'm a 26 year old woman who has the same general problem with labels. I'm not straight because I love sex with women, both in the context of threesomes as well as solo. But when I'm in a bar, my eye strays towards the men. Not to say that I haven't looked at a woman and thought "I really want to fuck her right now" but it's just much rarer that I feel that way. I've never had a "relationship" with a woman, but I have had (and currently do have) sexual, intimate friendships with other women.
I have struggled with my label since I was a teenager. Probably even younger than that actually, since I used to play "doctor" with my girlfriends as a young child. I used to just be bi when I was single, then straight in relationships. That didn't work. Then I would come out to my boyfriends after we were very serious. That didn't work either. Next I tried coming out to them after a few dates. Nope, still not the winner. I FINALLY switched my OkCupid profile to bi a few weeks ago. It's taken me years to get to that point, and it still makes me a bit nervous having that all out there, considering I have been publicly straight for my entire dating life. The decision to officially switch my public label came after slowly switching my public label in other contexts. Most of my friends now know that I have slept with women, and none of them cared. Little by little it seemed that everyone I cared about knew that I liked to fuck women from time to time, so it was no longer a big deal. And treating it like a big deal in relationships only made it that much harder to find the right dude. So I figured, fuck it, I'll just throw that out there from the start. We'll see how it works out!
The problem is that when you're not out as a lesbian at that age, it's very hard to find someone to explore with. Many gay women don't want to mess with the type of bi that LW is, and when someone tries to be honest about their intentions many gay women take it the wrong way. LW should just be open to exploring whatever comes along, and date whoever she wants to date. I have found that when I just let myself be who I am, the right people respect me more. Yes, it means that some people who otherwise would be into her will reject her for being bi. But it's so much better to get that out in the open right away, instead of wasting time in relationships with people who are not comfortable with that idea.
As she ages, has more experiences, and becomes more confident in both herself and her sexuality, LW will settle on the description that best suits her. It takes a lot of experiences for 100% straight and 100% gay people to figure out what they like in relationships and in bed, and LW will be no different. Maybe she will find that as she explores that aspect of herself, it really is confined to the sex. Maybe she'll find that she enjoys a bit more intimacy with women, but not enough to sustain an official "relationship." As with any 19 year old, she just needs to have more experiences to figure out where exactly she is on the spectrum. That's the fun of dating!
More...
I have struggled with my label since I was a teenager. Probably even younger than that actually, since I used to play "doctor" with my girlfriends as a young child. I used to just be bi when I was single, then straight in relationships. That didn't work. Then I would come out to my boyfriends after we were very serious. That didn't work either. Next I tried coming out to them after a few dates. Nope, still not the winner. I FINALLY switched my OkCupid profile to bi a few weeks ago. It's taken me years to get to that point, and it still makes me a bit nervous having that all out there, considering I have been publicly straight for my entire dating life. The decision to officially switch my public label came after slowly switching my public label in other contexts. Most of my friends now know that I have slept with women, and none of them cared. Little by little it seemed that everyone I cared about knew that I liked to fuck women from time to time, so it was no longer a big deal. And treating it like a big deal in relationships only made it that much harder to find the right dude. So I figured, fuck it, I'll just throw that out there from the start. We'll see how it works out!
The problem is that when you're not out as a lesbian at that age, it's very hard to find someone to explore with. Many gay women don't want to mess with the type of bi that LW is, and when someone tries to be honest about their intentions many gay women take it the wrong way. LW should just be open to exploring whatever comes along, and date whoever she wants to date. I have found that when I just let myself be who I am, the right people respect me more. Yes, it means that some people who otherwise would be into her will reject her for being bi. But it's so much better to get that out in the open right away, instead of wasting time in relationships with people who are not comfortable with that idea.
As she ages, has more experiences, and becomes more confident in both herself and her sexuality, LW will settle on the description that best suits her. It takes a lot of experiences for 100% straight and 100% gay people to figure out what they like in relationships and in bed, and LW will be no different. Maybe she will find that as she explores that aspect of herself, it really is confined to the sex. Maybe she'll find that she enjoys a bit more intimacy with women, but not enough to sustain an official "relationship." As with any 19 year old, she just needs to have more experiences to figure out where exactly she is on the spectrum. That's the fun of dating!
22
@11
"Sounds like hedging to me. (That is, she sounds open to dating women, and other "new things"...)"
Really? Sounds to me like she was avoiding being labelled a bigot.
She's young, and writing into Dan and didn't want him calling her out for saying "I could never see myself in a long term relationship with a woman."
Not that he would've. But I think that was her concern.
"Sounds like hedging to me. (That is, she sounds open to dating women, and other "new things"...)"
Really? Sounds to me like she was avoiding being labelled a bigot.
She's young, and writing into Dan and didn't want him calling her out for saying "I could never see myself in a long term relationship with a woman."
Not that he would've. But I think that was her concern.
25
Huh, I'm a little surprised at the people doubting she is what she says she is rather than just some in-between stage on the way to lesbianism and/or full bi-romanticism.
I'm 32, bisexual and heteroromantic. I have loved a lot of women in totally platonic ways (just friends), and I have fucked some women in completely sexual ways (just sex), and I have even fucked some of my female friends (just friendly sex)...but I have never, ever been at all romantically interested in a woman. I can't describe the difference, exactly, but I can definitely say there is a difference between how I feel about men and women, emotionally. And it certainly isn't because of social attitudes or fear of whatever, it's because it's how I feel.
It's not impossible CUNT's view of herself and her romantic possibilities will change with time...but I don't think it's fair to assume she's clueless about herself, either.
I'm 32, bisexual and heteroromantic. I have loved a lot of women in totally platonic ways (just friends), and I have fucked some women in completely sexual ways (just sex), and I have even fucked some of my female friends (just friendly sex)...but I have never, ever been at all romantically interested in a woman. I can't describe the difference, exactly, but I can definitely say there is a difference between how I feel about men and women, emotionally. And it certainly isn't because of social attitudes or fear of whatever, it's because it's how I feel.
It's not impossible CUNT's view of herself and her romantic possibilities will change with time...but I don't think it's fair to assume she's clueless about herself, either.
26
@25 - Clearly she knows enough to know she's not completely straight, but she also hasn't explored the extent of her interest in women. There's a difference between just having an active imagination versus actually having a desire (whether romantic or sexual) for members of the same gender. I wouldn't say same-sex thoughts alone make someone bi, it's the desire to actually act on those thoughts, and the acts themselves that do. In my opinion, she will figure out her own label once she figures out the extent of her interest in women. Until she's actually confronted with making out (and more) with a woman, she won't know whether she's actually into women, or just into thinking about them. She's not clueless, just inexperienced.
27
I'm a 26 year old woman married to a man, and I've always been attracted to both girls and guys. I've never done anything more than make out with other women, and I can't really imagine myself in a romantic relationship with another woman -- or anyone other than my husband, to be honest. But yeah, women rock. They're physically hotter than guys, in my opinion. I don't know what label applies to me either. I'd feel like a bit of a fraud calling myself bi, since I've never had sex with a woman and don't really plan to. But yeah, there ya go.
(I've been drinking as well).
(I've been drinking as well).
28
We doubt her because she's 19. It's always a sound policy to doubt things teenagers declare about themselves, including sexual orientation. They just don't have enough life experience to really know what they want or who they are or where to align themselves in the world. I'd say label yourself bi for now, but recognize the next few years could bring a world of change before you get 'BI4LIFE' tattooed on your neck.
29
I'm with the 19 crowd. She is young, discovering possibilities. Maybe she will feel exactly as she does now when she's 35, and maybe she won't. What's the hurry? Why the labels? Why not take whatever comes and enjoy it?
In fact, I would even ask CUNT directly: what exactly would you gain by being able to say that you are X, Y or Z? A color-marked ID card?
As seandr above says, "fun" is not a bad label if you need one. There's no need to 'completely and forever figure out' your sexuality.
In fact, I would even ask CUNT directly: what exactly would you gain by being able to say that you are X, Y or Z? A color-marked ID card?
As seandr above says, "fun" is not a bad label if you need one. There's no need to 'completely and forever figure out' your sexuality.
30
Worth noting: Be a thoughtful ex, and observe the campground rule. Most of the bad PR bi chicks have to deal with comes from people who figured they could just whine about biphobia instead of following those very simple rules. If you insist on a label, "a considerate partner" is far more important than your Kinsey number.
31
The longer you explore your own thoughts, attitudes, and sexuality/sensuality, the more you realize that labels are more for other people than yourself.
I wish that, at 19, I had explored more of my general urges...
And I'm not saying that because I feel like I'm missing out now; I like the way that my primary relationship, and I miss having secondaries (grrr, dating = hard). Instead, I wish that I had *acted* on what I wanted.
It's more that human sexuality is a continuum. So, make out with whoever you want to (consent, blah, blah, blah), date the people you actually *click* with, and make commitments to the people you can live with. And don't make children with people unless you can trust them. Simple as that, right? Yeah, right.
But if you get hung up on labels, you might talk yourself out of meeting, befriending, and screwing people that could make your life much more fulfilling, or at least more fun.
I wish that, at 19, I had explored more of my general urges...
And I'm not saying that because I feel like I'm missing out now; I like the way that my primary relationship, and I miss having secondaries (grrr, dating = hard). Instead, I wish that I had *acted* on what I wanted.
It's more that human sexuality is a continuum. So, make out with whoever you want to (consent, blah, blah, blah), date the people you actually *click* with, and make commitments to the people you can live with. And don't make children with people unless you can trust them. Simple as that, right? Yeah, right.
But if you get hung up on labels, you might talk yourself out of meeting, befriending, and screwing people that could make your life much more fulfilling, or at least more fun.
32
@1, 7: Wait, do lots of people pronounce "Babel" the same way they pronounce "babble"? Or, alternately, do lots of people pronounce "label" to rhyme with "babble"? I've only ever heard/pronounced "Babel" to rhyme with "label" (like the 'a' sound in "gay"), though brief reflection leads me to the conclusion that the pronunciation with which I'm familiar is probably a worse transliteration from Ancient Hebrew than "babble" (according to Wiki's listing of the Hebrew, the English would be closer to "Bahvahl", as English lacks the bilabial fricative).
33
@CUNT: Alternately, you could ID as a "stereotypical-straight-guy-fantasy girl". Isn't a women who only wants Relationships with men but is down to fuck women exactly the hetero male fantasy stereotype? At ant rate, identity politics are all about understanding how different labels are likely to be read in different contexts, and choosing the label for a given context that communicates what you want. Words don't have stable, universal, or essential definitions, so there really is no 'correct' or 'incorrect' identity label. Or, if you really have no preference, you can just say something like "I only date men but I fuck women too" and let people call you whatever they want (I'd say that's inviting gender- or sexuality-based epithets, but since you're apparently okay with "cunt", that might not be a worry for you).
34
@32, that you can have only ever heard "bayble" and me only "babble" suggests my taste for social trash and dropping out of school maybe hasn't served me as well as I like to think. A billion internets to you for getting "bilabial" into this thread so legitimately.
35
Great advice! Could you now convince all straight men to be upfront about their disinterest in relationships?
36
I suggest the world let people who are heterosexual use that term and the rest of the universe can just use humans.
I am a hetero male, I am not guess at it, I know I am. Hetero enough to feel guilt over it as it seems like it should be wrong.
This reminds me of a recent quote about atheism, "Atheism is a religion like abstinence is a sex position - Bill Maher" and feels the same way.
Hetero is about being hetero, not being hetero is about NOT being Het, having to have 99 other words is remarkably ignorant and only feeds into the division of a community that needs nothing more to divide it.
I am a hetero male, I am not guess at it, I know I am. Hetero enough to feel guilt over it as it seems like it should be wrong.
This reminds me of a recent quote about atheism, "Atheism is a religion like abstinence is a sex position - Bill Maher" and feels the same way.
Hetero is about being hetero, not being hetero is about NOT being Het, having to have 99 other words is remarkably ignorant and only feeds into the division of a community that needs nothing more to divide it.
37
@35 Beccoid Nice way to generalize "all straight men" I suspect such thoughts are why you only experience those types of men.
38
@14 Folks are hesitant to embrace the Bi label because we aren't all that "embraced" by the gay community or the straight community. We're either still working it out (i.e. not willing to admit we're really gay) or just plain promiscuous in a lot of minds. There are a lot of people who still don't believe bisexuality really exists on both sides of the aisle and we're stuck in the middle.
@CUNT I'm with you 100%. I marry boys...but girls are so much nicer on the eyes. :)
@CUNT I'm with you 100%. I marry boys...but girls are so much nicer on the eyes. :)
39
Here's a label for you: "human being".
I wish we'd just use that label and let the rest sort itself out.
I wish we'd just use that label and let the rest sort itself out.
41
I enjoyed Dan's earlier column about "what kind of bisexual am I" and I think he's right about this situation, but here's my question: why is it that men who are only romantically interested in women and have purely recreational sex with men are 'bi-now, gay-later' or closet cases? Even Dan perpetuates this a bit.
I'm a dude who has enjoyed some hot sex with dudes, but never really been terribly attracted to men, and never been even remotely romantically involved with one. I'm happy to call myself 'bi' because that matches the behaviors I engage in and I'm OK with it.
I'm a dude who has enjoyed some hot sex with dudes, but never really been terribly attracted to men, and never been even remotely romantically involved with one. I'm happy to call myself 'bi' because that matches the behaviors I engage in and I'm OK with it.
42
I've always said "You'd be surprised by what you would do, at the right place, at the right time, with the right person" I vote for "FUN"
43
I likewise vote for "FUN". You'll figure out all the nuances of that label as you go along, CUNT.
PS - This comments thread is beginning to represent a Tower of Label.
PS - This comments thread is beginning to represent a Tower of Label.
44
@41 - the double standard exists because science has shown that women have a MUCH more fluid sexuality than men do. There's a study out there (can't find the reference now) that shows that women are more likely to be turned on by sexual photos of both genders, whereas men are more likely to be turned on by sexual photos of the gender they prefer. Really wish I could remember that study, but it is out there.
OkCupid has a slightly less scientific, but also interesting analysis at the end of this article: http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/the-bi…
So, yeah. There's the whole science thing. That doesn't mean that men can't be bi. Sounds like you are, but in the same way that I and the LW are too. Just more proof that a label is more of a quick way to categorize things than a description of that thing.
OkCupid has a slightly less scientific, but also interesting analysis at the end of this article: http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/the-bi…
So, yeah. There's the whole science thing. That doesn't mean that men can't be bi. Sounds like you are, but in the same way that I and the LW are too. Just more proof that a label is more of a quick way to categorize things than a description of that thing.
45
Several of the sexual-minority communities I've encountered (e.g. asexual and demisexual comms) operate with a very helpful distinction between sexual and romantic attraction. Sounds like this girl is bisexual and heteroromantic, by those standards. I say this because I think that since so many people's sexual and romantic orientations align, we sometimes forget that they aren't necessarily actually the same... It's what people get confused about when asexual folks talk about being in romantic relationships. You can be romantic with someone you don't fuck, but you can also fuck someone you'd never consider getting romantic with. You know what I mean.
46
Oh -- I meant to add that I *don't* say this because I think LW should start labeling herself to identify this way if she doesn't feel it. I think it'd just confuse a lot of people, from my experience in hearing people on the asexual spectrum try to get it through to people. My personal experience is that people tend to understand "queer" better, and perhaps judge less. I think very specific labels sometimes scare people... But for the sexual orientation scholars she might encounter, this could be an accurate way to describe it.
47
@44 - the OKCupid piece is fascinating, and yeah, I do agree that fluidity is definitely less in men.
48
That's funny, I'll bet if she was younger than 19 or was a man the biphobic bigot Savage would say, "Oh you don't really know if you're bisexual you're too young, and you'll just come out as gay/lesbian eventually!"
49
MagicDoyle-We're not talking about asexuals at all, or people who don't have any sexual orientation or sexual attraction to anyone at all. The woman in the article is not asexual at all and she actually has something that no asexual has or ever has and that's sexual attraction to someone and in her case sexual attraction to multiple genders. Calling her "hetero-romantic" is laughable. Who's to say that she won't fall in love with a woman or that she can't or won't eventually?
50
Thank you for this. I love and am married to a man but I enjoy having sex with men and women (we're swingers). I've wondered for a long time what it meant that I like to have sex with women but am not really interested in them romantically. I wondered if I was really bi--because, if not, why did I like having sex with them? Seeing it explained here makes sense, and I'm sheepish that I did not realize this about my own self before.
51
@1 You're thinking of "Tower of Babel" from Captain Fantastic and the Brown Dirty Cowboy. Great album! :)
As for CUNT, I'd share that for the longest time I didn't think I could be "gay" because I wasn't attracted to guys emotionally. (But sexually -- yes!) But one night I had a dream that I was on a secluded Hawaiian beach with this guy I liked at my gym. We were walking along, and he reached over to hold my hand, and it *thrilled* me! I woke up and realized that I did like the guy emotionally, but I would only entertain the idea if no one else was around. It made me realize I had some homophobia issues to deal with. I pretty quickly decided I was at least bi-sexual, and came out as that. I pretty quickly just moved to "gay" as a label instead, because my guys-to-girls ratio was *hugely* skewed towards guys (1000:3), and "gay" just felt more accurate. I do like *some* women, and thought I was going to get married to an amazing woman at one point, so I guess "bi" is technically fair. But it's not really much on my radar screen these days; I just go with "gay". Which is funny, because it's pretty clear now that I am, in the words of Peggy Hill, "gay... very, very gay".
As for CUNT, I'd share that for the longest time I didn't think I could be "gay" because I wasn't attracted to guys emotionally. (But sexually -- yes!) But one night I had a dream that I was on a secluded Hawaiian beach with this guy I liked at my gym. We were walking along, and he reached over to hold my hand, and it *thrilled* me! I woke up and realized that I did like the guy emotionally, but I would only entertain the idea if no one else was around. It made me realize I had some homophobia issues to deal with. I pretty quickly decided I was at least bi-sexual, and came out as that. I pretty quickly just moved to "gay" as a label instead, because my guys-to-girls ratio was *hugely* skewed towards guys (1000:3), and "gay" just felt more accurate. I do like *some* women, and thought I was going to get married to an amazing woman at one point, so I guess "bi" is technically fair. But it's not really much on my radar screen these days; I just go with "gay". Which is funny, because it's pretty clear now that I am, in the words of Peggy Hill, "gay... very, very gay".
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