Slog
News & ArtsMonday, February 6, 2012
Comedy / Media Penn Jillette Thinks Lindy West Is a Cunty Cunt!
Posted by David Schmader on Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 1:30 PM
Hey look! Lindy West reviews this year's batch of Superbowl commercials over at MSNBC!
Penn "& Teller" Jillette is not pleased:
I can't wait till an African-American writes something Penn Jillette doesn't like and he lets that nigger have it.
1
This is almost as bad as Ari Fleischer doing "damage control" for Komen.
Great MSNBC reviews. I only really liked the VW commercial and one of the polar bear commercials, and a thumbs up on Chevy.
Great MSNBC reviews. I only really liked the VW commercial and one of the polar bear commercials, and a thumbs up on Chevy.
2
I disagreed with her review but I'm not going to cuss at her. Most of the commercials were pretty funny, but to each their own.
6
"This is just someone trying to hate people and be superior and having to work really hard at it."
I couldn't agree more. Asshat...
I couldn't agree more. Asshat...
17
I don't get it. Is he mistaking Lindy's article as serious critique, or is he calling her a cunt because she failed to make him laugh?
P.S. There are more differences between "cunt" and "nigger" than there are similarities.
P.S. There are more differences between "cunt" and "nigger" than there are similarities.
18
I like Penn's work, generally, but I am kind of puzzled as to why he'd go out of his way to criticize someone's work for going out of it's way to criticize someone's work.
19
There's something distinctly Hipster Generation about Lindy's sense of humor -- the gleeful tangents, the capitalized second-person slang fragments, the eight layers of irony -- of which a Classic Showbiz fart like Jillette is never going to see the appeal.
She just happens to be really fucking good with that style of humor, so out-loud-laugh-generating that she overcomes the subcultural limitations of the style. She is to hipster humor what Andy Kaufman was to performance art.
Penn Jillette, meanwhile, is a useless echo of post-Catskills, post-Vegas showboating as an end in itself. Dreary. And apparently a total douche as well.
She just happens to be really fucking good with that style of humor, so out-loud-laugh-generating that she overcomes the subcultural limitations of the style. She is to hipster humor what Andy Kaufman was to performance art.
Penn Jillette, meanwhile, is a useless echo of post-Catskills, post-Vegas showboating as an end in itself. Dreary. And apparently a total douche as well.
20
Aw, Penn. In the case of you vs. Lindy West, Lindy wins every time. Way to blow away whatever residual goodwill you had from me for hosting MST3K Turkey Day marathons back in the day, you ass face.
21
Didn't someone on Slog point out how Penn Jillette acted like a real prick to a barista at one of the small coffee shops in Seattle? Maybe someone can jog my mind but this sort of attitude from that lardass isn't that shocking.
23
Lindy West, you have arrived! Some of us can only dream of being hated on by Penn Jillette.
Of course I'll be even more impressed if you get Teller to say something about you.
Of course I'll be even more impressed if you get Teller to say something about you.
24
I liked him better when he was being a giant douche to people who actually needed it, like psychics and homeopaths and whatnot. It's one thing to pick on people who do the victimizing, and another entirely to pick on people who are already victimized demographics. Now I'm sort of surprised they never did an episode of "Bullshit!" on feminism. What a shithead.
25
Was that ACTUALLY his official account? I don't doubt he's a doucher enough to, of course. But I don't see why he'd bother yapping about any blogger's opinions versus anything else traditionally libertopian.
26
Stranger writers, please educate yourselves about race. Happy Black History Month to you, too. The fact that no one else even comments on the N word or notices a damn thing (well, one comment) shows how utterly unnecessary & out of place it was. Let's try and be creative instead of reflexively going for the cheap shock value. & how many years have you been writing for The Stranger? Racial ignorance repeatedly presents itself in this paper, because the writers are predominately white and male and priveleged and basically don't give a fuck because they don't have too. No dear, gay is NOT the new Black.
28
Whatever Lindy wrote, that response was overblown. But comparing "cunt" to "nigger"? Please.
If you want a word for females that carries an analogous amount of cultural baggage as "nigger" does for blacks, then I think the word you're looking for is "wife".
If you want a word for females that carries an analogous amount of cultural baggage as "nigger" does for blacks, then I think the word you're looking for is "wife".
30
Bravo, d.p.
Also, Harriett, not disagreeing with you, but I think it's more likely that commenters aren't saying anything because they don't really know how to address it (or they don't think it's a big deal, which is problematic). I find that when I avoid talking about race it's because I don't want to be perceived as a racist. I am interested in your take on what makes this particular use of the N word thoughtless and offensive (not being sarcastic or ironic; I really am. educate me).
As far as white hipsters using race to be edgy, I always find it helpful and humbling to watch this informative and even-handed vlog episode from badass Jay Smooth: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpK0Ad8hD…
Anyway, bottom line: Penn 0, Lindy eight million.
Also, Harriett, not disagreeing with you, but I think it's more likely that commenters aren't saying anything because they don't really know how to address it (or they don't think it's a big deal, which is problematic). I find that when I avoid talking about race it's because I don't want to be perceived as a racist. I am interested in your take on what makes this particular use of the N word thoughtless and offensive (not being sarcastic or ironic; I really am. educate me).
As far as white hipsters using race to be edgy, I always find it helpful and humbling to watch this informative and even-handed vlog episode from badass Jay Smooth: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpK0Ad8hD…
Anyway, bottom line: Penn 0, Lindy eight million.
31
#27. You referenced yourself as the other comment. That's really lame and sad. A lot of black writers, like Ta Nehisi Coates , would have no problem with Schmader's use of the word. It's making a point, where saying the "N-word" just makes the reader say it in their mind. There's a place to use the word in context of someone else using it or it being in a book or a sign (Rick Perry thing). Also, please educate yourself about race is the most condescending line I can think of in a blog comment.
32
I agree with @26. Also, when is it okay for white people to use the n-word? Ummm, almost never.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iau-e6HfO…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iau-e6HfO…
33
@26: Yeah, there's plenty enough douchey in the reply without feeling forced to co-opt race and give it "more weight".
34
@32, yeah, almost never. The exception would be like this here, where the white writer is using it in the voice of the bigot he is making fun of.
You Stranger readers need to educate yourself in the art of reading comprehension.
You Stranger readers need to educate yourself in the art of reading comprehension.
35
I do thank Penn for doing his part to lessen the sting of "cunt" though. Calling someone a cunt over not being funny? Way to lower the bar, man.
37
Anybody in this comment thread who's angry about use of the n-word without recognizing an entirely uncalled-for, malicious use of the c-word is missing the p-word.
38
@34 You should educate yourself in not being a dick, but I fear it's too late for that lesson.
It seems like busting out the n-word every time someone called Lindy a cunt would mean the entire stranger staff would be chanting the n-word like a KKK march. Hardly an excuse to trample out "nigger" to make a point. Asshole.
It seems like busting out the n-word every time someone called Lindy a cunt would mean the entire stranger staff would be chanting the n-word like a KKK march. Hardly an excuse to trample out "nigger" to make a point. Asshole.
40
How exactly are the words "nigger" and "cunt" different? They're both slurs. It just seems like playing oppression olympics to try to make one worse than the other. They're both equally awful.
41
@28 -- Historically, calling a woman a cunt doesn't seem as bad as calling a black person a nigger. Linguistically and rhetorically? Pretty much the same thing. These are both examples of synechdoche where one part of the person's physical identity, either race or gender, is used to define that person and turned into an ad hominem attack.
42
that is fucking awesome.
grats lindy!
i'd love to be able to piss off penn that badly. the dude is pretty tough as nails.
grats lindy!
i'd love to be able to piss off penn that badly. the dude is pretty tough as nails.
45
Did msnbc pull all the comments from her article? Tried to find them and can't seem to.....hmmm....
47
@26, you're co-opting the name of Harriet Tubman for your myopic, peevish blog comments, and you have the unmitigated gall to call out other people for playing the race card?
Fuck. You.
Fuck. You.
48
So when she calls the M&M ad victim-blaming, she's implying that the audience's take away is that the woman appearing to be naked excuses the douche-M&M's inappropriate come on?
My reaction at the time was that we were supposed to be empathizing with her while dismissing the behavior of the dumb, horny men. Didn't the red M&M seem like the antagonist? I feel like the argument that this ad is anti-feminist would be stronger if the red M&M wasn't on the way to getting shut down hard when the ad ends.
The message I got is "if you think that a woman being dressed provocatively can only mean she is like totally into you, bro; then you're an idiot like this dancing naked cartoon candy." And I like that message, but maybe I'm just being optimistic.
Anyway, good ad, because we're talking about it.
My reaction at the time was that we were supposed to be empathizing with her while dismissing the behavior of the dumb, horny men. Didn't the red M&M seem like the antagonist? I feel like the argument that this ad is anti-feminist would be stronger if the red M&M wasn't on the way to getting shut down hard when the ad ends.
The message I got is "if you think that a woman being dressed provocatively can only mean she is like totally into you, bro; then you're an idiot like this dancing naked cartoon candy." And I like that message, but maybe I'm just being optimistic.
Anyway, good ad, because we're talking about it.
50
Lol, I'm Penn Jillette. I make lots of statements about how atheism is amazing and people are dumb and we should all be progressive liberals, lol!
And then I call women misogynstic slurs that help enforce a gender binary-promoting patriarchy, lol!
Look how funny/edgy I am, lol!
What a fucking jackass.
And then I call women misogynstic slurs that help enforce a gender binary-promoting patriarchy, lol!
Look how funny/edgy I am, lol!
What a fucking jackass.
51
& @26," Fuck. You." is quite a bit more peevish than anything that I wrote, wouldn't you say? Sensitive about race and discussions of white privilege much?
53
Except for the use of that abhorrent word he's pretty much spot on in his evaluation of Ms. West's, uh, talent. She does seem to enjoy her own humor far more than anyone else.
54
@50 Jillette is a notorious LIBERTARIAN. Not a liberal. And as we all know libertarian is simply another word for dipshit.
Lindy's article was terrible. But I fail to see how it got Jillettes ire up to the point he has to scream "cunt" over and over at her. And he's the very last person who should go around chastising people for claiming superiority. Jesus. That guy is the most smug, condescending fucking douche bag on the planet. I guarantee he was involved in one of those ads somehow. Otherwise that dude is a mental case for getting so het'd up over nothing.
Lindy's article was terrible. But I fail to see how it got Jillettes ire up to the point he has to scream "cunt" over and over at her. And he's the very last person who should go around chastising people for claiming superiority. Jesus. That guy is the most smug, condescending fucking douche bag on the planet. I guarantee he was involved in one of those ads somehow. Otherwise that dude is a mental case for getting so het'd up over nothing.
55
Hello folks: Having my post blasted for "gratuitous use" seems totally fair, and this icky sideline of inherent revulsion/comparative suffering of c-word vs. n-word (ALWAYS AWFUL, plus the n-word forever "wins") will be remembered as a deal-breaker next time I'm offended enough to want to reference the goddamn n-word.
Short version: My distaste for the childlike "n-word" < the inherent offensiveness of the actual word.
Learning and growing, thanks for playing.
Short version: My distaste for the childlike "n-word" < the inherent offensiveness of the actual word.
Learning and growing, thanks for playing.
57
What is up with white people insisting that in some particular instance, in some particular context that's not racist, it's ok for them to use the word n****r????? It's not just here in the Stranger comments, it seems like everywhere I turn there's some white person saying an exception can be made for them to write or say it. You know, since you cannot separate your whiteness from the history of this word, using it is always going to bother someone. And what is so awesome about using it anyway? You don't have enough white privilege, you have to be able to say n****r too? Please.
60
Harriett, I asked a respectful question, and you've chosen only to respond to the people you can respond to antagonistically. If you're not going to engage in a constructive conversation about race instead of taking on a condescending tone and telling people to "educate themselves" without explaining what you mean, you're just trolling. Do you actually want people to be smarter about race, or do you just want to feel superior?
62
Haha, oh wow, @51. Called you out and got two replies and a profile stalk (And the point of that is, by the way? "Don't disagree with me on the internet because I WILL FIND YOU"?) but no actual response. I guess that's pretty much par for the course, though - your comment was basically just "Nuh-uh" to begin with.
Anyway, confirmation of troll acquired. We're done here.
Anyway, confirmation of troll acquired. We're done here.
63
Let me get this straight. A white person when say quoting the Nixon tapes to make a point of how racist Nixon must use "the N-Word." What authority has definitively decided this? A lot of black thinkers/writers would feel the exact opposite, that to use "n-word" in actual racist quotations is a lame and touchy-feely way to get out of actual history.
64
63: There's no "has to" here. It's about how you like to communicate/be perceived. I like to offend people on purpose, to make a point, not offend them in a way that obfuscates the point, which is how I see this particular case, and probably all point-making use of the worst word in history going forward...
65
@57:
Thanks for exemplifying the worst extremes of political correctness. As a Jewish person who has heard people use words like "kike" first-hand, I do not subscribe to your position that any usage of a word is offensive. Intent is an important factor, and the idea that academics discussing the etymology and history of the word "nigger" need to instead use the much less-specific "n-word" is laughably stupid. Kind of like your comment.
Sincerely,
Kikey McKikerson
Thanks for exemplifying the worst extremes of political correctness. As a Jewish person who has heard people use words like "kike" first-hand, I do not subscribe to your position that any usage of a word is offensive. Intent is an important factor, and the idea that academics discussing the etymology and history of the word "nigger" need to instead use the much less-specific "n-word" is laughably stupid. Kind of like your comment.
Sincerely,
Kikey McKikerson
66
@64: Was your intention to trigger a discussion of a word that African Americans find offensive? If so, congratulations, you've succeeded. If instead you wanted people to focus on how offensive Penn Jillette's choice of words was, you've failed.
67
Lindy should take comfort in knowing that Jillette gave his daughter the name of a very specialized stripper.
69
As a white (and male) person, I'm of the opinion that white people just don't get to use the n-word. There are a lot of ways that Jillette's (unsurprising) asshattery could have been called out without the use of an easy and offensive joke. AND, I generally agree that while both words are very offensive (I also don't like and would similarly criticize men using the c-word), they're not appropriate corollaries.
I also would like to bring up the point that I've read elsewhere that the focus of the conversation has been diverted away from Jillette's misogynistic comment by David's choice of words. What might have been an interesting discussion about casual misogyny became, instead, clouded by the necessary issue of addressing the n-word. The point that it was bad was clear, there was no need to use racially charged language.
I also would like to bring up the point that I've read elsewhere that the focus of the conversation has been diverted away from Jillette's misogynistic comment by David's choice of words. What might have been an interesting discussion about casual misogyny became, instead, clouded by the necessary issue of addressing the n-word. The point that it was bad was clear, there was no need to use racially charged language.
70
People still say "kike?" I thought the discerning modern bigot preferred the more subtle dog whistle "Hollywood agent", "pinko intelectual" or "banker."
71
@37: "Anybody in this comment thread who's angry about use of the n-word without recognizing an entirely uncalled-for, malicious use of the c-word is missing the p-word."
Who are you arguing with, here?
@41: "Linguistically and rhetorically? Pretty much the same thing."
Yes, utterly devoid of context, any insult carries the same weight as another?
Who are you arguing with, here?
@41: "Linguistically and rhetorically? Pretty much the same thing."
Yes, utterly devoid of context, any insult carries the same weight as another?
72
Before jumping all over Penn Jillette I'd like a link to the actual source of this quote, please. Frankly it doesn't sound like him, it wasn't posted on Twitter which is where he usually takes these things, and I can find no sign of it having been posted on Facebook or anywhere else.
75
I really don't understand why everyone's so upset by the N-word. Some of my best friends are Neopolitans.
76
@46 -- People with darker skin sometimes get called niggers by ignorant racists. Racists reduce someone's identity to skin colour in a diminishing, derogatory way.
@71 -- Looking at something in a different context, like a rhetorical one rather than a historical one, isn't the same as stripping it of any context.
@71 -- Looking at something in a different context, like a rhetorical one rather than a historical one, isn't the same as stripping it of any context.
77
I adore Lindy but this is not her best work.
(though "the end is hella nigh" is fantastic)
Buuuut Penn is a jackass and I hope he apologizes for this.
(though "the end is hella nigh" is fantastic)
Buuuut Penn is a jackass and I hope he apologizes for this.
78
Oh: and when a full grown adult uses the term 'n-word' or 'c-word' instead of what you mean, you sound like Kyle's mom from the South Park movie; namely, like you've got a telephone pole shoved up your C-word. You're an adult, theoretically speaking. Stop talking like a fucking 6yr old. Language has power. Stop trying to act like you can pull its teeth by hiding behind allusion. We know what you mean when you say it. Grow a pair and say it.
80
it was a terrible piece of non writing to be fair.
would have much preferred a WM Steven Humphrey review.
would have much preferred a WM Steven Humphrey review.
83
I've reviewed Lindy West's review. It sucked. Get over it.
Yes, Mr. Schmader could have used a different word. He didn't; it caused controversy. Get over it.
Ms. West, you are now a contributor, not at The Stranger but a larger publication, it would be wise for you to start thinking on a larger scale; you are still a plagiaristic hack and the review shows this.
Everybody else? Grow the fuck up.
Yes, Mr. Schmader could have used a different word. He didn't; it caused controversy. Get over it.
Ms. West, you are now a contributor, not at The Stranger but a larger publication, it would be wise for you to start thinking on a larger scale; you are still a plagiaristic hack and the review shows this.
Everybody else? Grow the fuck up.
84
I'm more offended by bad taste than anything else. If your over the age of 14 and still get offended by nigger/cunt your a fucking idiot. The over-used variations of "douche" are far more pathetic because of the users inability to resist parroting their dominant peers. Cunt is coming into its own right now and I'm sure nigger will eventually have it's day. The window for douche was brief and never surpassed the broad richness of "asshole" in it's design.
88
All you peckerwoods telling the niggers to get over it when being compared to cunts are a bunch of dicks.
89
Did anyone bother to confirm whether that comment in the screencap was made by the actual Penn Jillette and not one of the zillions of Facebook imposters of famous people? Y'know...do a little fact checking?
91
Lindy's article was stupid, as was Penn's review. Yet another example of how everyone shutting the fuck up and minding their own business would've been nice.
93
@91. Sorry, but is this your first day on the Internet? I can only assume so, if you think the response to anything at all online is for all parties to shut up and mind their own business.
94
Didn't we have this "n" vs. "c" discussion before around here? Why are we repeating the same mistake?
Jillette's (supposed) reply was way over the top, but West's über-snark gets old really fast.
Jillette's (supposed) reply was way over the top, but West's über-snark gets old really fast.
95
I used to think Penn was great but when he called "bullshit" on environmental activists because -- I don't know, he's a moron? -- he lost me. This is not helping.
96
@84: "I'm more offended by bad taste than anything else. If your over the age of 14 and still get offended by nigger/cunt your a fucking idiot."
South Park has apparently made a generation of children functionally retarded.
South Park has apparently made a generation of children functionally retarded.
98
The above does not look like the real Penn Jillette's twitter feed.
This does:
http://twitter.com/pennjillette
This does:
http://twitter.com/pennjillette
99
@97, the thing you find suspiciously unlike a twitter feed is what kids these days call a "Facebook post".
100
@98, gol-ding it, wtf was I thinking? I can only claim that I recently woke up from a nap. Good lord, that were dumb of me.
102
I see a lot of people shrieking, "It's never okay for a white person to use the n-word!" but there is a distinct lack of the corresponding, "It is never okay for a man to use the c-word!"
I find it fascinating that a white person using the word "nigger" with an intent to make a point generates more flipping out than a man's use of the word "cunt" to degrade a woman.
I find it fascinating that a white person using the word "nigger" with an intent to make a point generates more flipping out than a man's use of the word "cunt" to degrade a woman.
105
@65 Well I'm Jewish and I find "kike" inappropriate at all times unless I'm talking to another Jewish person about the word. So I guess you don't get to speak for all of us. Or for other oppressed minorities for that matter.
@50 pretty much.
@50 pretty much.
107
I love Lindy's writing. I'm sick of Penn Jillette. And comment trolls remind me of sunny days and popsicles and fluffy little puppies.
109
@105
A lot of accusations there. Proof?
When a white man calls a woman a "cunt" or a black person a "nigger" he is saying the same thing to both. Which is, "Know your place". So, I feel that comparison is fair.
A lot of accusations there. Proof?
When a white man calls a woman a "cunt" or a black person a "nigger" he is saying the same thing to both. Which is, "Know your place". So, I feel that comparison is fair.
111
This little clipping came from my Facebook wall. Penn read Lindy’s article because he clicked on a link on a personal friend’s wall. He didn’t tweet this. He said it to me.
I could delete his post, but sadly it will not matter because this is now the world’s business.
I’d also like to note that the unfortunate thing about Facebook is that posting something on a personal friend’s wall quickly becomes saying it “on the internet”.
There is a grey area between saying something on television and saying it in a friend’s living room, and in this particular case it was my living room, so I’m feeling a little violated. And not by Penn, or by Lindy.
Context matters. If people want to stop supporting him for using the word cunt, of course that’s their business. But please know that he did not tweet it to the world, as if Lindy being a cunt were something everyone needed to know. He said it in a conversation on my wall.
Lindy has every right to share it, and I’m sure Penn won’t mind it being made public. But if this information becomes wide-spread, my hope is that the context travels with it.
Also, whatever you may think about the words Penn uses, I may very well think the same things. But I’ve been privileged to see how he actually behaves with at least one non-virtual woman, and he’s a good man when he doesn’t have to be. When it doesn’t benefit him at all. When no one is watching.
His public persona is for public consumption and you all have your right to your opinions about it, but I’ve never been treated less than kindly by him, and he’s had plenty of opportunity. Please take that into consideration when judging his overall character.
I could delete his post, but sadly it will not matter because this is now the world’s business.
I’d also like to note that the unfortunate thing about Facebook is that posting something on a personal friend’s wall quickly becomes saying it “on the internet”.
There is a grey area between saying something on television and saying it in a friend’s living room, and in this particular case it was my living room, so I’m feeling a little violated. And not by Penn, or by Lindy.
Context matters. If people want to stop supporting him for using the word cunt, of course that’s their business. But please know that he did not tweet it to the world, as if Lindy being a cunt were something everyone needed to know. He said it in a conversation on my wall.
Lindy has every right to share it, and I’m sure Penn won’t mind it being made public. But if this information becomes wide-spread, my hope is that the context travels with it.
Also, whatever you may think about the words Penn uses, I may very well think the same things. But I’ve been privileged to see how he actually behaves with at least one non-virtual woman, and he’s a good man when he doesn’t have to be. When it doesn’t benefit him at all. When no one is watching.
His public persona is for public consumption and you all have your right to your opinions about it, but I’ve never been treated less than kindly by him, and he’s had plenty of opportunity. Please take that into consideration when judging his overall character.
113
After consideration, we cannot in good conscience recommend the use of the word "nigger" as a pejorative under any circumstances. It is too stained with a history of violence, subjugation, and hate to be thrown out as a funny insult to get titters.
Now cunt, on the other hand, that's a lovely word. Round and soft and hard and slippery at the same time. You silly twats have at that one. But be warned - if you call a person a cunt without a good (or hilarious) reason for doing so, you're advertizing to everyone what a big ol' asscrack you are.
This has been a public service announcement from the Profanity and Expletive Review, Verification, and Expert Recommendation Team (PERVERT). You can contact us through our web site or by shouting "FUCK!" loudly and repeatedly.
Now cunt, on the other hand, that's a lovely word. Round and soft and hard and slippery at the same time. You silly twats have at that one. But be warned - if you call a person a cunt without a good (or hilarious) reason for doing so, you're advertizing to everyone what a big ol' asscrack you are.
This has been a public service announcement from the Profanity and Expletive Review, Verification, and Expert Recommendation Team (PERVERT). You can contact us through our web site or by shouting "FUCK!" loudly and repeatedly.
115
Hi Emily,
If Penn said something to you on Facebook, and the statement is available to the public, then yes, it's accurate to say that he "said it on the internet." It's not an unfortunate thing about Facebook; it's an unfortunate thing about deciding that Facebook is an appropriate place to say such a thing rather than, you know, in private email/phone call/text message/standing in the kitchen. Nobody gives a damn how he treats you, in this context. It's irrelevant. You acknowledge that his public persona is available for public judgment, and that's what's happening. You know, like both Penn and you do all of the time. It was a stupid ass comment, and that really has nothing to do with the specific usage of the word "cunt."
If Penn said something to you on Facebook, and the statement is available to the public, then yes, it's accurate to say that he "said it on the internet." It's not an unfortunate thing about Facebook; it's an unfortunate thing about deciding that Facebook is an appropriate place to say such a thing rather than, you know, in private email/phone call/text message/standing in the kitchen. Nobody gives a damn how he treats you, in this context. It's irrelevant. You acknowledge that his public persona is available for public judgment, and that's what's happening. You know, like both Penn and you do all of the time. It was a stupid ass comment, and that really has nothing to do with the specific usage of the word "cunt."
116
@111, really appreciate you sharing all that. I suppose it's a good thing to hear from you that he doesn't treat most women like he did Lindy. I would, however, encourage you to revisit your concept of Facebook bystanders. When he posted that on your wall, he wasn't speaking quietly one-on-one to you in your living room, really. It's more like you threw a party and invited everyone you like. You know everyone, but nobody else knows everyone, that kind of thing. It's fun, there's a happy din of chatter, and this is what he shouts to you, loud so you can hear him. Sure, he didn't realize a friend of Lindy's happened to be within earshot, but then he doesn't seem to have worried about it even a bit.
I don't mind the c-word as such, I know when it's wordplay. But he whipped it at one of my favorite writers so eagerly - at her, mind you, not the work. He personalized it, so I'm not bothered doing the same in return, and on more evidence than he had.
I don't mind the c-word as such, I know when it's wordplay. But he whipped it at one of my favorite writers so eagerly - at her, mind you, not the work. He personalized it, so I'm not bothered doing the same in return, and on more evidence than he had.
117
Well, all of you who love Lindy - as I do - should be pleased by the fact that this kerfluffle has likely gotten her some new readers.
Enjoy your evenings.
Enjoy your evenings.
118
White people, don't use the N-word. At all. Ever. Even if you think you can in this one scenario or you're cool enough or have been "given permission."Just choose not to okay?
Also, I love Lindy. <3 I wish she'd come back to us.
Also, I love Lindy. <3 I wish she'd come back to us.
119
I don't see a difference in degree between the c-word and the n-word. I appreciate David Schmader's point. Like Fnarf says, Reading comprehension, people. Don't call a woman a cunt just because you don't like her writing. It doesn't feel like you don't like her writing, but like you want to say she is not a full human. Thanks @102 and @109.
122
Amanda, I see what your thinking, but I'd like to point out that 'Nigger' is neither a color nor a body part. It's not a synechdoche. It's not equivalent to 'cunt'.
Both words are vile and needn't be used by anyone, save the ignorant or the scholarly. Schmader was unthinking and Jillette is an idiot. Maybe the Stranger should suspend commenting.
Both words are vile and needn't be used by anyone, save the ignorant or the scholarly. Schmader was unthinking and Jillette is an idiot. Maybe the Stranger should suspend commenting.
124
@65, A sincere question: would you be square with usage of the term kike if it was being used by a neo-Nazi?
125
lol, I had to look up who Penn Jillette, I don't know his name w/o Teller after it. And now I care less.
126
Update! It turns out that show business folk are frequently assholes. Lindy and Penn are both entertaining and assholes, sometimes at the same time.
Lindy: *hipster jokes*
Penn: "I don't get it! Hey you kids get off my lawn!"
Lindy: *hipster jokes*
Penn: "I don't get it! Hey you kids get off my lawn!"
127
@109: As a black woman, my experience having each of those words used against me was exactly how you describe it. That said, I recognize that my country has a different history with race than the US, so the context for the words is different.
Anyhow, totally uncalled for on Penn's part. What a jerktastic move.
That wasn't Lindy's best piece, but trying to find a humorous thread between a bunch of unrelated commercials within a word count isn't an easy writing task.
Anyhow, totally uncalled for on Penn's part. What a jerktastic move.
That wasn't Lindy's best piece, but trying to find a humorous thread between a bunch of unrelated commercials within a word count isn't an easy writing task.
128
How about a new rule: anyone can say what they want to say, and anonymous internet commenters don't get to tell anyone what they can't say. Deal?
130
@128: Lawl, looking at your comment history, apparently you've got issues with black people in general. You can say what *you* want, and the rest of us can feel free assuming you're an asshole.
131
@106 But I don't care about Ms. West's writing. I don't care if she is a Nobel Prize winner in Literature or the worst writer on the face of the planet. This is about the use of the words "nigger" and "cunt." If Ms. West had been black and had written the same items, do you think it would have been alright for Penn to call her a nigger based on the same rational? Or do you agree with the people who have said it is never okay fora white person to call a black person a nigger, but that it can be alright for man to call a woman a cunt? If so, what is the factor that makes a difference in your mind?
133
He was rude, he was insulting, he was obnoxious, but as far as his point, buried as it was in vitriol- he wasn't wrong.
The Stranger is free. It costs nothing. Still, I never pick it up. The forced humor, the sloppy writing by solipsistic dullards (Hello, Charles!) and the general carelessness of the production have made me come to the realization that the act of literally picking it up from the stack under the roof downspout is not worth the trouble. I've read some features when friends suggest I do so, but it's mostly the sad attempt at humor that keeps me away. Lindy's piece is an excellent, bad example of same.
To recap: Penn is an ass, Lindy is not at all funny, and her piece was uninteresting and pointless.
The Stranger is free. It costs nothing. Still, I never pick it up. The forced humor, the sloppy writing by solipsistic dullards (Hello, Charles!) and the general carelessness of the production have made me come to the realization that the act of literally picking it up from the stack under the roof downspout is not worth the trouble. I've read some features when friends suggest I do so, but it's mostly the sad attempt at humor that keeps me away. Lindy's piece is an excellent, bad example of same.
To recap: Penn is an ass, Lindy is not at all funny, and her piece was uninteresting and pointless.
134
Does anybody have any confirmation as to how much sleep Penn Jillette lost last night worrying about what internet zeroes think of him?
135
Penn Jillette exemplifies for libertarian individuals a pattern I've always perceived in the libertarian party itself: the turd in the punchbowl. Let me explain. Think of the libertarian party as a bowl of punch. Some punch is lame, but this particular bowl of punch is awesome! "No unjust wars!" "Legalize drugs!" "Let local municipalities govern themselves in ways they see fit!" "Mind your own damn business!" And I'm like, "sweet, this punch is awesome, I'm going to have a glass." And then I get closer and see "No public education!" And I'm like, "Dammit, this punch bowl has a huge turd in it."
Likewise with Penn Jillette. I think the way he combines magic and comedy in a knowing, "this is bullshit, right?" way is entertaining. I like his show, bullshit. I like that he's an outspoken atheist. He makes me laugh. But goddamn is he an asshole.
Likewise with Penn Jillette. I think the way he combines magic and comedy in a knowing, "this is bullshit, right?" way is entertaining. I like his show, bullshit. I like that he's an outspoken atheist. He makes me laugh. But goddamn is he an asshole.
136
It's important to point out that Penn Jillette's wife is named Emily, and that she took to Twitter last night to defend him, generally by defending his apparently inalienable right to bully anyone he wants.
137
@133 - And yet, and yet... You think enough of this outfit to have taken the time to create a Slog persona, complete with avatar, and you've now further taken the time to comment on this thread -- albeit with a giant dose of "This old rag?!? Oh, I never sully my precious hands to actually, (gasp) pick. it. up." (shudder)
Long story short: yer an asshat.
Lindy is much-beloved and hella funny, Jillette is an asswipe playing WAY TOO FREE with words he has no business using and....
Oh yeah: yer an asshat.
Thanks for playing Slog!
Long story short: yer an asshat.
Lindy is much-beloved and hella funny, Jillette is an asswipe playing WAY TOO FREE with words he has no business using and....
Oh yeah: yer an asshat.
Thanks for playing Slog!
138
Lindy, I'm sorry that you had to read this about yourself, even from a douche like him.
And for all of you calling out David's use of "nigger" in his comment: his use was an exact parallel of Penn's comment about Lindy. The fact that most of you can't see that shows how completely ingrained (and acceptable) misogyny is to all of you.
It's a sad day here today.
And for all of you calling out David's use of "nigger" in his comment: his use was an exact parallel of Penn's comment about Lindy. The fact that most of you can't see that shows how completely ingrained (and acceptable) misogyny is to all of you.
It's a sad day here today.
140
@111 Won't somebody please think of the world-famous multimillionaires?
Sorry, nope. My opinion of Penn before this was mildly favorable; I've never seen "Bullshit" or any of his other work but I know he debunks homeopaths and such, so that was well and good.
Now I have him permanently tagged in my brain as 'Misogynist Piece of Shit and Terrible Human Being', and the reason why will be on the tip of my brain whenever anyone mentions this irredeemable hack. In the long term I'll probably change at least a few minds who didn't realize what an awful person this guy is offstage. Not enough to make any kind of a dent (thanks @134, it's not like any of us were aware of how little power we have in this world), but enough to feel that I've done my part to keep the world's population of putrid assholes labeled and sorted.
Sorry, nope. My opinion of Penn before this was mildly favorable; I've never seen "Bullshit" or any of his other work but I know he debunks homeopaths and such, so that was well and good.
Now I have him permanently tagged in my brain as 'Misogynist Piece of Shit and Terrible Human Being', and the reason why will be on the tip of my brain whenever anyone mentions this irredeemable hack. In the long term I'll probably change at least a few minds who didn't realize what an awful person this guy is offstage. Not enough to make any kind of a dent (thanks @134, it's not like any of us were aware of how little power we have in this world), but enough to feel that I've done my part to keep the world's population of putrid assholes labeled and sorted.
141
@136: I don't know, I cuss up a storm but I have zero interest in calling my partner's friends (even facebook friends) cunts and the like, even if they annoy me. I find it unnecessary and belittling.
@138: "And for all of you calling out David's use of "nigger" in his comment: his use was an exact parallel of Penn's comment about Lindy. The fact that most of you can't see that shows how completely ingrained (and acceptable) misogyny is to all of you."
If you have to bring out "nigger" to make your point, obviously there's something lacking in your argument and it needs to be rephrased. Stop co-opting racism for your cause. The analogy is disrespectful to the victims of racism and it undermines the severity/prevalence of misogyny if you can't address it directly.
@138: "And for all of you calling out David's use of "nigger" in his comment: his use was an exact parallel of Penn's comment about Lindy. The fact that most of you can't see that shows how completely ingrained (and acceptable) misogyny is to all of you."
If you have to bring out "nigger" to make your point, obviously there's something lacking in your argument and it needs to be rephrased. Stop co-opting racism for your cause. The analogy is disrespectful to the victims of racism and it undermines the severity/prevalence of misogyny if you can't address it directly.
142
@134: "Does anybody have any confirmation as to how much sleep Penn Jillette lost last night worrying about what internet zeroes think of him?"
Well, his wife is obviously concerned with how he is perceived outside of a circle of intimate friends, so there's that.
Well, his wife is obviously concerned with how he is perceived outside of a circle of intimate friends, so there's that.
143
Look you guys. Jillette is, and always has been, an insecure poseur asshole. But calling one woman a cunt does not a misogynist make. So can we dispense with that kind of shit for five seconds.
I know. I know you all had your torches all ready to burn off his rhetorical testicles.
Sure, he did call Lindy this awful name with no provocation, and from I can see no reason what so ever, we have no evidence he actually hates all women. And that what misogyny means.
We have no evidence he has a pattern of this kind of ire exclusively to women. Just Lindy and this article, apparently, and for some insane reason that exists in the recesses of his tiny libertarian mind. But let's not go off the rails here.
Reflexively labeling people with this extreme rhetoric only cheapens the meaning and impact of actual misogyny. Like how the right calls the slightest social program Obama does "socialist." You know? Any one?
Oh well. I'm sure I'm wasting my breath. BURN HIM ANYWAY!
I know. I know you all had your torches all ready to burn off his rhetorical testicles.
Sure, he did call Lindy this awful name with no provocation, and from I can see no reason what so ever, we have no evidence he actually hates all women. And that what misogyny means.
We have no evidence he has a pattern of this kind of ire exclusively to women. Just Lindy and this article, apparently, and for some insane reason that exists in the recesses of his tiny libertarian mind. But let's not go off the rails here.
Reflexively labeling people with this extreme rhetoric only cheapens the meaning and impact of actual misogyny. Like how the right calls the slightest social program Obama does "socialist." You know? Any one?
Oh well. I'm sure I'm wasting my breath. BURN HIM ANYWAY!
144
@143: Whether someone "is a misogynist" or "is a racist" because they use the terminology is irrelevant hairsplitting
The story exists because it's funny that a celebrity got mad enough to use the douchey language on some "minor" writer.
But yeah, get unnecessarily angry about someone's unnecessary anger in some circlejerk of futility.
The story exists because it's funny that a celebrity got mad enough to use the douchey language on some "minor" writer.
But yeah, get unnecessarily angry about someone's unnecessary anger in some circlejerk of futility.
145
@143: I watched exactly one episode of Bullshit and it had a moment of vicious sexism that was so egregious that I decided I was done with Penn & Teller forever. It was the "etiquette" episode where they mocked "etiquette consultants." They mocked the male consultant by calling him angry and pathetic, which was true. They mocked the female consultant (who had done no worse) by calling her "bitch" and "whore."
fuck those guys.
Also, apparently they work boobs into every episode. Which isn't bad in itself, but people who do that should make, you know, some nominal effort to point out that they see women as actual people and not just things that carry boobs around. Instead they gratuitously call obnoxious women "bitch" and "whore" (and now "cunt").
fuck those guys.
Also, apparently they work boobs into every episode. Which isn't bad in itself, but people who do that should make, you know, some nominal effort to point out that they see women as actual people and not just things that carry boobs around. Instead they gratuitously call obnoxious women "bitch" and "whore" (and now "cunt").
146
Gosh, just imagine what he would have said if he'd been reading Mudede's pathetic dribble instead of Lindy!
147
Lindy's review is a steaming pile of dog shit.
Penn's diatribe is unnecessarily harsh, but true.
Hope all you inbred morons who are criticizing Penn just as harshly realize just how fucking hypocritical and moronic you sound.
There is zero difference between Penn and you.
Penn's diatribe is unnecessarily harsh, but true.
Hope all you inbred morons who are criticizing Penn just as harshly realize just how fucking hypocritical and moronic you sound.
There is zero difference between Penn and you.
148
@147 There is no "truth" in Jillette's diatribe? There is opinion and irrational hostility. Please point to this "truth."
I thought the article was unfunny and weak and far from Lindy's best work. He didn't attack th the article he attacked Lindy. Therefore he opens himself to direct personal insult in exchange.
Jillett did not offer any meaningful critique or truth. He just adhom'd the shit out of West and then admits he didn't even see the commercials in question nor "does he want to."
Like, wow. He's so above it that he's in't going even dignify SuperBowl ads with his super smart critical eyeballs.
But Lindy does and.... "GRAAAAAAAAAAR!!! WADDA CUUUUUNT!!!"
Fuck him.
I thought the article was unfunny and weak and far from Lindy's best work. He didn't attack th the article he attacked Lindy. Therefore he opens himself to direct personal insult in exchange.
Jillett did not offer any meaningful critique or truth. He just adhom'd the shit out of West and then admits he didn't even see the commercials in question nor "does he want to."
Like, wow. He's so above it that he's in't going even dignify SuperBowl ads with his super smart critical eyeballs.
But Lindy does and.... "GRAAAAAAAAAAR!!! WADDA CUUUUUNT!!!"
Fuck him.
149
@148
yadda yadda yadda . . .
Lindy's review sucked donkey balls, Penn sounds like an angry blowhard. And lest ye is willing to consider thyself equally douchebageriffic, refrain from getting all self-righteous about Penn. It's in the bible.
Stones, hypocritards.
P.S. I consider myself very douchebageriffic.
P.P.S. Sorry, god is a cyclopic, rainbow colored skittle farting unicorn.
yadda yadda yadda . . .
Lindy's review sucked donkey balls, Penn sounds like an angry blowhard. And lest ye is willing to consider thyself equally douchebageriffic, refrain from getting all self-righteous about Penn. It's in the bible.
Stones, hypocritards.
P.S. I consider myself very douchebageriffic.
P.P.S. Sorry, god is a cyclopic, rainbow colored skittle farting unicorn.
151
Perhaps somebody (maybe a reporter, perhaps) should actually verify the veracity of the story. Penn doesn't even own the Facebook account this came from and claims not to have said it. He's pretty responsive on Twitter, but nobody even asked him outright.
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