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News & ArtsSaturday, February 4, 2012
Religion Maher Un-Mormon-Baptizes Mitt Romney's Non-Believing Father-in-Law
Posted by Dan Savage on Sat, Feb 4, 2012 at 12:32 PM
1
I want to set up a web site where I can list the names off all the Mormons that I have posthumously converted to atheism. Anyone know where I can find a database of these people online?
4
Hands down the best thing I've seen all week. The whole concept of posthumous baptism really pisses me off. Obviously as an atheist I don't think it matters to the dead person, since they're dead and gone, but the arrogance is infuriating, but not surprising.
5
You know how the Republicans have lectured everyone about what is Christian and morality and this is a Christian nation and all their holy baloney bullshit for decades? I think it's about time the tables were turned. They are about to nominate a cultist to be POTUS. That should definitely be a campaign issue. Who would you rather have in the White House; a Christian or a Cult? It's a good way to attack Romney from the right. It's a good way too rub their noses in Christianity.
6
I admire Maher a lot, but who else would choose a format where invited celebrities sit around him while he monologues?
7
This is what our conservative christian, political zealots are doing in their spare time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5dHhvpHI…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5dHhvpHI…
8
@6 Ha! Good point, gus.
@7 http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4131 . Try and listen with an open mind, dude.
@7 http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4131 . Try and listen with an open mind, dude.
9
The whole business with an afterlife absolutely skews your priorities. If disbelief damns people to unending torment, and belief guarantees them eternal bliss, surely any atrocity is not merely acceptable but morally mandated if it brings the victims and/or survivors to The Faith? It's problems like this that leave me very uncertain as to whether the devout, sincere adherents of many popular religions can ever be part of a civilized, pluralistic society.
Posthumous conversion of the unbeliever has some of the same incentives, albeit with fewer consequences for the unbeliever. I'm actually sympathetic to Ann Romney's desire to intercede for her dead father, given her beliefs - the problem is when she does it publicly, and claims not only that she has interceded but that he has been converted, his nature has been changed.
The far more emotive version of this episode is the Mormon conversion of the victims of the Holocaust (when it was exposed, the Mormon authorities pledged to no longer talk about converting victims of the Holocaust, and to discourage mass posthumous conversions, but not to stop the practice). People who died precisely they were Jewish were posthumously declared to be no longer Jewish. I can totally understand why Mormons distraught by the horrors of the 20th century and believing in a punitive afterlife would want the best for the victims; the problem is when they presume to speak for them.
Posthumous conversion of the unbeliever has some of the same incentives, albeit with fewer consequences for the unbeliever. I'm actually sympathetic to Ann Romney's desire to intercede for her dead father, given her beliefs - the problem is when she does it publicly, and claims not only that she has interceded but that he has been converted, his nature has been changed.
The far more emotive version of this episode is the Mormon conversion of the victims of the Holocaust (when it was exposed, the Mormon authorities pledged to no longer talk about converting victims of the Holocaust, and to discourage mass posthumous conversions, but not to stop the practice). People who died precisely they were Jewish were posthumously declared to be no longer Jewish. I can totally understand why Mormons distraught by the horrors of the 20th century and believing in a punitive afterlife would want the best for the victims; the problem is when they presume to speak for them.
10
@#6,
I think the Tonight Show has been doing this for over 60 years, except that the monologue occurs while the guests are cooling their heels in the green room rather than already on stage. I think the fault is more with the camera crews thinking that it's important to show the guests sitting there waiting for their portion of the show during the monologue (which I agree with you is unseemly) than it is for the show having them in place before their portion starts.
I think the Tonight Show has been doing this for over 60 years, except that the monologue occurs while the guests are cooling their heels in the green room rather than already on stage. I think the fault is more with the camera crews thinking that it's important to show the guests sitting there waiting for their portion of the show during the monologue (which I agree with you is unseemly) than it is for the show having them in place before their portion starts.
12
@10, it's the having them onstage for it that seems out of place, more circle-jerky than his schtick would seem to call for. Don't get me wrong, I love a good monologue.
13
I wish Christopher Hitchens would only show his face in a tree stump. I can't get that asshole to leave my house. If you thought he was biting and condescending when debating theists, try to imagine what it's like with him at the foot of the bed, critiquing your sexual performance.
16
Looove it! And the guests' laughter (begrudgingly or not) only added to the joy of the segment.
Su-Su-Sudio-yo-ma-ma is my new response to every ridiculous statement.
Su-Su-Sudio-yo-ma-ma is my new response to every ridiculous statement.
17
Even though I'm not exactly an atheist, the difference between me and one is esoteric enough that, for most purposes, it doesn't matter. And considering the influence of radical/extremist Christianity in American politics... I have to agree Mr Maher's speech was hilarious! One of the funniest things I've ever seen. (I have never watched his show; this makes me think I should.)
18
@9: Actually, they were killed for being Hebrew (racially "Jewish"), not for being Jewish in the (proper) religious sense, and no one is claiming _that_ has changed. The Nazis killed Christians (and atheists) of Hebrew descent and spared practicing Jews (specifically Crimean Karaites) who they believed (rightly or wrongly - the history is a little murky) to be of non-Hebrew descent.
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9
Don't be uncertain!
Without a doubt, it is our solemn Duty; as enlightened tolerant smug stalwarts in a civilized, pluralistic society; to eradicate devout, sincere adherents of many popular religions....
Please join in the Humanist Jihad against devout, sincere adherents of many popular religions!!
Don't be uncertain!
Without a doubt, it is our solemn Duty; as enlightened tolerant smug stalwarts in a civilized, pluralistic society; to eradicate devout, sincere adherents of many popular religions....
Please join in the Humanist Jihad against devout, sincere adherents of many popular religions!!
22
3
ah ma'daam, it seems to be the heathens who keep their panties in a twist over the topic.
it is amusing that people who don't believe in an afterlife get so outraged over what someone else does for the dearly departed.....
ah ma'daam, it seems to be the heathens who keep their panties in a twist over the topic.
it is amusing that people who don't believe in an afterlife get so outraged over what someone else does for the dearly departed.....
23
5
did you know Kennedy the Democrap was a Catholic?
the Democraps seem to have survived nominating someone who believes they literally eat the flesh of jesus.....
did you know Kennedy the Democrap was a Catholic?
the Democraps seem to have survived nominating someone who believes they literally eat the flesh of jesus.....
24
5
In fact Joe Biden is a devout Catholic; The Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life notes that Biden attended Catholic school, considered becoming a priest, attends a parish in Wilmington, Delaware, met with Pope John Paul II four times and attended his funeral.
Biden claims that at a personal level, his faith provides him peace, he says. 'I get comfort from carrying my rosary, going to mass every Sunday. It's my time alone,' he says."
In fact Joe Biden is a devout Catholic; The Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life notes that Biden attended Catholic school, considered becoming a priest, attends a parish in Wilmington, Delaware, met with Pope John Paul II four times and attended his funeral.
Biden claims that at a personal level, his faith provides him peace, he says. 'I get comfort from carrying my rosary, going to mass every Sunday. It's my time alone,' he says."
25
@20 I'm going to quote from your article, even thought the author makes a lovely performance of excuse making and mental gymnastics. Now really ask yourself, does this type of behavior sound anything other than insane!? Because it does to me. Especially for some of the most powerful individuals on the planet who do nothing but espouse their moral conservative Christianity.
"It's well documented from reporters and others who have snuck in and photographed the ceremony, which takes place on the first day of the 16-day camp. A 50-minute dramatic play accompanied by a full orchestra, with huge production value, climaxes with figures cloaked in robes burning a coffin on a sacrificial altar before a huge cement owl."--hmmm, don't see anything creepy about that...
"The Bohemians call this the Cremation of Care ceremony, and the name of the antagonist in the coffin is Dull Care." Um...coffin? Oh, the one they set on fire in a little boat adorned with a skull...
"It turns out that the conspiracy story most often told about the Bohemians (no, not really) is actually true: That the Manhattan Project was planned there, to develop the first atomic weapons."
http://www.cremationofcare.com/illu_boh_…
Totally normal I guess...
"It's well documented from reporters and others who have snuck in and photographed the ceremony, which takes place on the first day of the 16-day camp. A 50-minute dramatic play accompanied by a full orchestra, with huge production value, climaxes with figures cloaked in robes burning a coffin on a sacrificial altar before a huge cement owl."--hmmm, don't see anything creepy about that...
"The Bohemians call this the Cremation of Care ceremony, and the name of the antagonist in the coffin is Dull Care." Um...coffin? Oh, the one they set on fire in a little boat adorned with a skull...
"It turns out that the conspiracy story most often told about the Bohemians (no, not really) is actually true: That the Manhattan Project was planned there, to develop the first atomic weapons."
http://www.cremationofcare.com/illu_boh_…
Totally normal I guess...
26
@20 Way to take a bold stance in defense of mock child sacrifice and secretive occult rituals by the way. But I'm sure it's all harmless hi-jinks, because people who are for all purposes above the law would never abuse their power.... http://www.puppetgov.com/2009/01/13/the-…
28
@#18
I'm aware of that - I'm a third-generation Atheist Jew myself (the Jewishness goes back rather farther, of course ...). But the Otherness that led to their mass murder had to do with their Jewishness, or the Jewishness of their parents or grandparents, and it's awfully presumptuous of these Mormons to attempt to deny them part of that.
I'm aware of that - I'm a third-generation Atheist Jew myself (the Jewishness goes back rather farther, of course ...). But the Otherness that led to their mass murder had to do with their Jewishness, or the Jewishness of their parents or grandparents, and it's awfully presumptuous of these Mormons to attempt to deny them part of that.
29
I suspect I am the only commenter to have actually participated in Mormon "baptisms for the dead," and I LOVED this segment. It is hard enough to actually ensure your relatives' dying wishes are honored (for instance, my great-grandmother did not want to be "sealed" to her first husband, and my grandma wants to stay "sealed" to her first husband who divorced her and left her . . . yup, it's complicated. I know a lot about genealogical research, and trust me, the LDS Church has insanely good resources; records that any local historical society would kill for. But it's all for their mass baptisms (and endowments, and marriage sealings . . . baptisms are fairly benign and nice, but the others are goddamned FREAKY!!). We Mormons would take a book of names, say, all the Robinses from Impossiblewatamie, Massachussetts, and baptize 'em all. I feel like all these woman-hours could be put to SO much better use, like digitization of records, etc. . . .
At least Mr. Davies got to see his daughter married before her closed-doors "sealing," a privilege that no non-tithe-paying would get today. I will not see ANY of my siblings or best friends or brothers- and sisters-in-law get married, because I am not willing to get a "temple recommend," and it fucking kills me. I hate it, that they want you to "wait outside" like you're a middle school kid in suspension. Every other Westernized country (practically) requires a PUBLIC WEDDING. Ban private, closed-doors, religious zealot weddings, and mandate a civil wedding with government benefits be solemnized FIRST by a J. P. and then go dance naked in the forest for all I care.If you want to be married in the eyes of Cthulhu, fine, but if you want the U.S. to recognize your marriage, I guess you will have to let your own sister be present at a non-creepster wedding that will cost me a cool 10% of my wages. < hate >
More...
At least Mr. Davies got to see his daughter married before her closed-doors "sealing," a privilege that no non-tithe-paying would get today. I will not see ANY of my siblings or best friends or brothers- and sisters-in-law get married, because I am not willing to get a "temple recommend," and it fucking kills me. I hate it, that they want you to "wait outside" like you're a middle school kid in suspension. Every other Westernized country (practically) requires a PUBLIC WEDDING. Ban private, closed-doors, religious zealot weddings, and mandate a civil wedding with government benefits be solemnized FIRST by a J. P. and then go dance naked in the forest for all I care.If you want to be married in the eyes of Cthulhu, fine, but if you want the U.S. to recognize your marriage, I guess you will have to let your own sister be present at a non-creepster wedding that will cost me a cool 10% of my wages. < hate >
30
29
it is really creepy that you insist on being able to personally view any wedding in America.
you should seek professional help for your control issues....
it is really creepy that you insist on being able to personally view any wedding in America.
you should seek professional help for your control issues....
31
@30: Even if that was what she said, it wouldn't hold a candle to your creepy hobby of repeatedly posting inane and unintelligible polemics on a website full of people who hate your guts.
32
just to reply to the people who seem to find it distasteful that he has guest around him during the monologue...this isn't just any old monologue. this is some radical stuff, and having well-known and well-liked guests around him, who are clearly enjoying the monologue, makes it go down easier and makes it harder for religious people who are offended to totally write him off as a kook. I love it. Maher is one of kind and needs more and more press. What a relief.
34
Atheism is a religion in the same way that abstinence is a sex position.
Love it. Maher is a flawed guy--but then who isn't? When he is on his game, as here, he's damned good.
Love it. Maher is a flawed guy--but then who isn't? When he is on his game, as here, he's damned good.
35
Wonderful! Wonderful! and most wonderful wonderful!
How refreshing to see someone on the air, not afraid of the religious bigots or pandering to them, or giving them one single inch.
I hope it starts a real trend in Public Discourse! Don't be scared, they or their Thor or Jaweh can't hurt you! And the bigots have in actuality far less support in numbers than they'd have us believe, that's all smoke & mirrors.....
How refreshing to see someone on the air, not afraid of the religious bigots or pandering to them, or giving them one single inch.
I hope it starts a real trend in Public Discourse! Don't be scared, they or their Thor or Jaweh can't hurt you! And the bigots have in actuality far less support in numbers than they'd have us believe, that's all smoke & mirrors.....
36
33
yeah.
do you think we give a flying fuck whose guts Slog hates?
besides- speaking Truth to Power is lonely work......
yeah.
do you think we give a flying fuck whose guts Slog hates?
besides- speaking Truth to Power is lonely work......
37
Free speech! How brave!
For my posthumous situation, after they take any parts that are recyclable, I hope some of my ashes make it into space. Beyond that, it will no longer be my concern...
Peace.
Go Patriots!!!
For my posthumous situation, after they take any parts that are recyclable, I hope some of my ashes make it into space. Beyond that, it will no longer be my concern...
Peace.
Go Patriots!!!
38
At least you acknowledge it's power, thirty-six.
Maher's rant was great -- I especially liked the "expecto patronus" fake Harrypoterian Latin.
Maher's rant was great -- I especially liked the "expecto patronus" fake Harrypoterian Latin.
39
you girls should be angry at Maher.
his show was the last time Our Little Danny will ever be on TV.
he seduced Danny into confessing his dirty dark rape fantasies about Rick Santorum.
surely you remember: "I'm up for Santorum whipping up a little santorum IN MY ASS!"
that was after he said he wished all Republicans were dead.
Our Little Danny is one sick puppy......
Selah.
his show was the last time Our Little Danny will ever be on TV.
he seduced Danny into confessing his dirty dark rape fantasies about Rick Santorum.
surely you remember: "I'm up for Santorum whipping up a little santorum IN MY ASS!"
that was after he said he wished all Republicans were dead.
Our Little Danny is one sick puppy......
Selah.
40
39
yes.
it makes a FanBoy long for the days
when Danny contented himself licking doorknobs and toilet seats
in Gary Bauer's dank apartment.....
yes.
it makes a FanBoy long for the days
when Danny contented himself licking doorknobs and toilet seats
in Gary Bauer's dank apartment.....
42
@40, I don't think you're very likely to have a lover like Dan Savage in your life, no matter how much you fantasize about it. Try something more constructive instead.
43
I just want to note that baptisms for the dead just give the dead person the choice to convert to Mormonism--it doesn't force them. It's still pretty offensive to anyone who doesn't want it for their dead relations. But since a lot of people miss that point I thought I'd share.
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