Slog
News & ArtsMonday, January 30, 2012
LGBTQITSLFA If I'm a Transphobic Bigot...
Posted by Dan Savage on Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 9:04 AM
...what the hell is this guy?
1
Another transphobic bigot? This is a silly question, Michael Richards and Mel Gibson can't post a video of David Duke to combat accusations of racism.
(I actually don't think Dan is a transphobic bigot, I just find the argument he's making fallacious)
(I actually don't think Dan is a transphobic bigot, I just find the argument he's making fallacious)
2
Dan is one of the least transphobic people on the planet. The fact that he's not as strident as the .0001% of the population that is goes down as a "plus" in my book.
3
Those who say that Dan is transphobic (or a biphobic, for that matter) are simply delusional. They make claims with no substantial proof. The take statements out of context, or simply lie, to back up their accusations. They won't listen to reason or actual facts. They continue to shout down those trying to speak rationally to them, and cling to their beliefs. They will never hear anything other than what they already believe.
They remind me of birthers and truthers. I've taken to calling them "phobers."
They remind me of birthers and truthers. I've taken to calling them "phobers."
4
Okay, @1, good point. Maybe I should've said... if you're going to label me a transphobic bigot, what label are you gonna slap on this guy?
I mean, if there's no other label for him—and no rhetorical daylight between us—then the transphobe label is meaningless/useless.
I mean, if there's no other label for him—and no rhetorical daylight between us—then the transphobe label is meaningless/useless.
5
How about this for transphobic bigotry?: From the Canadian Governments Identification Screening regulations under The Aeronautics Act - Sec 5.2(1)(c) "An air carrier shall not transport a passenger if the passenger does not appear to be of the gender indicated on the identification he or she presents."
So, technically, in Canada (yup, my own country), trans people are not legally allowed to fly on airplanes.
So, technically, in Canada (yup, my own country), trans people are not legally allowed to fly on airplanes.
6
A more sympathetic approach to concerns would probably be continuing to post more trans-centered letters. I mean, you'll obviously never reach the purity-driven glitterbomb activists.
"I mean, if there's no other label for him—and no rhetorical daylight between us—then the transphobe label is meaningless/useless."
I agree with 1, finding *worse* examples of bigotry doesn't erase or change bigotry. Neither of us is saying that you are, but focus on positivity, the kneejerk defensiveness and taunting the activists isn't proving anything to them, and seems unnecessary to the rest of us.
Their statements obviously bugged you, for good reason, but there seem better ways to channel the criticism on your own terms?
"I mean, if there's no other label for him—and no rhetorical daylight between us—then the transphobe label is meaningless/useless."
I agree with 1, finding *worse* examples of bigotry doesn't erase or change bigotry. Neither of us is saying that you are, but focus on positivity, the kneejerk defensiveness and taunting the activists isn't proving anything to them, and seems unnecessary to the rest of us.
Their statements obviously bugged you, for good reason, but there seem better ways to channel the criticism on your own terms?
7
@4 - Well, in theory, you could both be transphobic. He's just violent (at least rhetorically - hopefully only!) and you're not.
In practice, of course, most of us realize you're not a transphobe. Speaking of which, exactly how many people have accused you of that? All I've heard about was that one glitterbomb thing. Do you really get it a lot?
In practice, of course, most of us realize you're not a transphobe. Speaking of which, exactly how many people have accused you of that? All I've heard about was that one glitterbomb thing. Do you really get it a lot?
8
Dan, the day will come when a poop lover calls you out as poop-phobic, and you'll just have to throw up your hands and say, "yeah, you're right..."
9
@7: "Well, in theory, you could both be transphobic"
Arguing in the abstract, it also gets into the "what is a racist/bigot" argument, plenty of people say inappropriate things and use faulty arguments that carry overtones of bigotry, but when they say "I could *never* be a racist", they do not want to be associated with the identity and miss the point of the criticism.
Similarly, calling someone a "transphobe" can be a lazy way to criticize without offering the offending party any opportunity to explain or clarify, and leads more to defensiveness than it does opportunity to learn, to better develop a more nuanced opinion on a rather complicated topic. They don't really care about changing Savage's mind, they would rather attempt to discredit than get him to understand.
Arguing in the abstract, it also gets into the "what is a racist/bigot" argument, plenty of people say inappropriate things and use faulty arguments that carry overtones of bigotry, but when they say "I could *never* be a racist", they do not want to be associated with the identity and miss the point of the criticism.
Similarly, calling someone a "transphobe" can be a lazy way to criticize without offering the offending party any opportunity to explain or clarify, and leads more to defensiveness than it does opportunity to learn, to better develop a more nuanced opinion on a rather complicated topic. They don't really care about changing Savage's mind, they would rather attempt to discredit than get him to understand.
10
This was truly hilarious. I wonder where the idea that you're transphobic could ever have come from!
http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…
http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…
11
Well, I think that trans activists who would glitterbomb Dan Savage can only handle binary logic. So, that Tennessee lawmaker guy is a transphobic bigot. Everyone is a transphobic bigot except other radical trans activists.
12
#1, #4: you walked into that one Dan. And the thing is, there's little point in differentiating between degrees of bigotry anyway. The Westboro clan is homophobic, but so is Rick Santorum. Obviously Westboro is vastly more insane and rabid, and uses much more inflammatory rhetoric, but that doesn't make Santorum any less of a homophobe.
13
"A lot of commenters are focused on whether Savage is transphobic. I know the guy. He's not transphobic. There's no way his intent was ever to attack transgender people. He's just obsessed with cracking open the stupidity of labels, preconceived notions, etc. Here is a guy who began his career by saying: I'm gonna have straight people ask me for advice and call me a faggot, and I'm going to give them the best advice I can. (Every letter to Savage Love began, "Hey faggot.") People used to be outraged over it, thinking that gave license to use faggot to people who genuinely hate faggots." (Christopher Frizzelle, http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…)
That's from the article that #10's article links to.
That's from the article that #10's article links to.
14
I dunno, Dingo, I think there is value in making distinctions. My grandpa was not in favor of my marrying a woman, because he thought we wouldn't/couldn't have kids, and he thought that raising a family was very important. That doesn't make him Santorum.
15
@12, Of course there are gradations of bigotry, and we can and do use labels to describe heterogeneous groups of them. But Dan's point, as I understand it, is that using transphobic to describe him and that Tennessee legislator stretches it too far, to the point where it describes nearly everyone, and loses its descriptive value in identifying the true enemies of progress.
16
@15: "Dan's point, as I understand it, is that using transphobic to describe him and that Tennessee legislator stretches it too far, to the point where it describes nearly everyone, and loses its descriptive value in identifying the true enemies of progress."
The observable difference between your average teapartier who regurgitates the old Southern Strategy dogwhistles and an active Neo-Nazi does not make criticism impossible.
I understand what Dan's trying to say, while definitely correct in that they're trying to discredit him through comparisons to hateful assholes, this gets wrapped up in "subjective racism versus objectively racist" rhetoric and I think a different angle might be more effective.
The observable difference between your average teapartier who regurgitates the old Southern Strategy dogwhistles and an active Neo-Nazi does not make criticism impossible.
I understand what Dan's trying to say, while definitely correct in that they're trying to discredit him through comparisons to hateful assholes, this gets wrapped up in "subjective racism versus objectively racist" rhetoric and I think a different angle might be more effective.
17
@ 12, adding to the responses you got already... If we can tell someone is less transphobic/homophobic/racist/sexist, we can tell who we might be able to win over in the long run.
All the various oppressions suffered by all the various minorities were all possible because a majority of people were -ists or -phobes - some to a great degree, but most to a lesser one. Things changed because the ones who weren't as invested in their prejudices learned better. Lumping them all together without regard to degree does nothing but impede the eradication of ignorance.
All the various oppressions suffered by all the various minorities were all possible because a majority of people were -ists or -phobes - some to a great degree, but most to a lesser one. Things changed because the ones who weren't as invested in their prejudices learned better. Lumping them all together without regard to degree does nothing but impede the eradication of ignorance.
18
If he wants to "stomp a mudhole" into any trans woman he finds in a women's restroom ...and he would do so on the basis of his belief that trans women are men and not women ...THEN WHAT THE $#@% IS HE DOING IN A WOMEN'S RESTROOM?
19
@18: The usual asshole argument is that trans-persons use the "wrong" restroom so they can ogle your wife and children, not because they feel most comfortable there.
20
15/17: A transphobic bigot is a transphobic bigot, just like a homophobe is a homophobe; they may be more or less bigoted, but that's not really the point.
21
Who would have imagined 20 years ago, that Dan's most vocal critics rampaging against him would be extremist queer-power folks
22
for god's sake stop linking shit to huff po . don't you know a cute kitten dies every time you log into the huffpo ? seriously though , if that fish wrap came in print i wouldn't line a cat box with it . stop linking shit to huffpo to help them get clicks .it's bullshit !
23
There is a difference. Rep. Floyd is a violent, transphobic bigot, who would make life for transgenered (and likely LGBQ) individuals a living nightmare. Dan can be a bit insensitive when he is worked up, but he would not support laws that discriminate against any LGBTQ people, let alone advocate violence against them.
I agree with @17 in that there are gradiations of any phobic discriminatory beliefs and that is good. If all transphobic were like Reb. Floyd, transgendered (and likely all LGBQ) people wouldn't stand a chance in this world.
Those who call Dan transphobic are extremist in their own way. It does us no good to see the world in a strict binary, "black or white", fashion, when it is clearly full of every shade of gray and color of the rainbow.
I agree with @17 in that there are gradiations of any phobic discriminatory beliefs and that is good. If all transphobic were like Reb. Floyd, transgendered (and likely all LGBQ) people wouldn't stand a chance in this world.
Those who call Dan transphobic are extremist in their own way. It does us no good to see the world in a strict binary, "black or white", fashion, when it is clearly full of every shade of gray and color of the rainbow.
24
@3, read what you wrote again. Really, all those qualities apply to ANYONE, even before you've heard what they have to say or why they're saying it?
25
@ 20, um, yes, yes it is the point. Some can overcome their prejudice, and will make our side stronger when they do. You'd rather they remain bigots?
26
Just wanted to point out this line from the link....
"That phrase means to sexually and violently assault someone to the point where they are unable to fight back".
The phrase "stomping a mud hole in someone's back" has absolutely no sexual connotation. It refers only to an old fashioned ass whooping.
Carry on.
"That phrase means to sexually and violently assault someone to the point where they are unable to fight back".
The phrase "stomping a mud hole in someone's back" has absolutely no sexual connotation. It refers only to an old fashioned ass whooping.
Carry on.
28
@26: As the use is usually "stomp a mudhole in your ass", I wouldn't doubt the possibility of the initial assumption.
Shoving your boot up someone's backside is still sexual assault, charming Southernism or not.
Shoving your boot up someone's backside is still sexual assault, charming Southernism or not.
29
@28 Nothing Southern about it, nothing charming about it. Either way,It looks to me like the author cribbed the definition off Urban Dictionary and just added the sexual assault part.
31
@20, you're missing the point, and begging the question (i.e. saying "a transphobic bigot is a transphobic bigot" is circular). The whole issue is about where we draw the line for whom to call a transphobic bigot. The line is of course arbitrary, but there is a practical value in reserving that term for those individuals dedicated to the opposition of progress. And while there are valid criticisms to be made of Dan (and anybody), he doesn't fall into that category.
32
Maybe the fact that the question of your transphobia recurs over and over again should be a hint to you Mr. Savage. Maybe you just don't know how to be an ally. Maybe you should just leave trans people and trans issues the fuck alone.
33
Don't think that the whole T community feels you are transphobic. I happen to think that is small group of very vocal activists. You are at the top of the list of people who I would like representing and speaking out for me. Please don't let the bastards silence you.
34
@32, the question of his transphobia keeps coming up from the same narrow-minded minority of activists who don't bother to understand where Dan is at on these issues. As 33 mentioned, it's not at all clear that his critics are representative of the communities they claim he oppresses. And anyway, if he refused to discuss trans issues at all, that would be held up as evidence of his continued transphobia. Not only that, the millions of listeners who might otherwise have learned something by listening to trans callers and activists Dan has on the show would remain ignorant.
35
@32: The issue of Mr. Obama's Kenyanicity keeps recurring. That doesn't mean he was born in Kenya.
36
Dan, you're clearly not like this guy. But you have said things that are hurtful. The "Rob McKenna is trans" thing wasn't funny for some people, and made it look like you were mocking trans people. The "Don't mess around with bisexuals!" advice that you used to give in 1999 was something I heard quoted back to me, and it's one reason why I didn't identify as bi in high school and college-- I thought people would accuse me of just pretending or of being a slut. My bi friends who were out at the time did get that kind of treatment from gays and lesbians.
You like to be provocative sometimes, which is great. Sometimes you pick the wrong targets, people who don't need the extra grief from someone they should be able to see as an ally. That's okay, too, everyone makes mistakes. It'd be great if you could just apologize, and say, "Oops, sometimes I'm kind of an asshole, I didn't mean to hurt you." If you're unable to do that, fine, shrug it off like a good provocateur should. But please stop running to Slog when someone gets mad at you, trying to get your fans to fall over themselves reassuring you that no, you're not a bigot. I doubt it changes very many minds.
I'm a big fan of yours despite stuff you've said that's hurt me. It'd be easier for me to shrug that stuff off as "everyone makes mistakes" if you didn't keep returning to the issues in search of validation that you couldn't possibly have made a mistake. Please just move on.
You like to be provocative sometimes, which is great. Sometimes you pick the wrong targets, people who don't need the extra grief from someone they should be able to see as an ally. That's okay, too, everyone makes mistakes. It'd be great if you could just apologize, and say, "Oops, sometimes I'm kind of an asshole, I didn't mean to hurt you." If you're unable to do that, fine, shrug it off like a good provocateur should. But please stop running to Slog when someone gets mad at you, trying to get your fans to fall over themselves reassuring you that no, you're not a bigot. I doubt it changes very many minds.
I'm a big fan of yours despite stuff you've said that's hurt me. It'd be easier for me to shrug that stuff off as "everyone makes mistakes" if you didn't keep returning to the issues in search of validation that you couldn't possibly have made a mistake. Please just move on.
37
@36, he has occasionally apologized, and frequently owns up to his assholery. Do you listen to his show? No, he doesn't bring it up every time he discusses the issues, nor has he wailed and gnashed his teeth and beat his breast begging for forgiveness, which is what seems to be the only thing that would mollify his most ardent critics. Yes, he gets defensive, but damn it, so would anyone if you were continually attacked as a hateful bigot despite all the good you've done on their behalf.
Let me put it another way: your comment indicates a lack of empathy on your part. It's so easy to take the moral highground and tell someone to grow up and stop being defensive. Yet it's not you getting glitterbombed, or you getting angry emails and calls, or you having your reputation dragged through the mud by a small group of vile and hateful attention-whores.
Let me put it another way: your comment indicates a lack of empathy on your part. It's so easy to take the moral highground and tell someone to grow up and stop being defensive. Yet it's not you getting glitterbombed, or you getting angry emails and calls, or you having your reputation dragged through the mud by a small group of vile and hateful attention-whores.
38
@OP "If I'm a Transphobic Bigot...what the hell is this guy?
It makes him rocky road. It makes you vanilla bean. You're both ice cream. You're at least made with real cream. He's just cheap milk solids. You're Ben & Jerry's; he's Fred Meyer house brand ice cream (in the giant gallon tubs).
You're less transphobic than you are perennially cissexist — and plenty enough trans misogynistic. In your mind, trans people have their place. That place is never at or above your level.
Also, a good advocate of trans people doesn't have to constantly solicit whether they're doing a good job or not.
It makes him rocky road. It makes you vanilla bean. You're both ice cream. You're at least made with real cream. He's just cheap milk solids. You're Ben & Jerry's; he's Fred Meyer house brand ice cream (in the giant gallon tubs).
You're less transphobic than you are perennially cissexist — and plenty enough trans misogynistic. In your mind, trans people have their place. That place is never at or above your level.
Also, a good advocate of trans people doesn't have to constantly solicit whether they're doing a good job or not.
39
@37 Has he apologized for the McKenna joke? I listen to the lovecast and read Slog and the Stranger pretty regularly and never noticed it. It's possible I missed it, tucked away in a Regrets Issue or something. Ditto for the "Don't mess around with bisexuals" comment. Last I heard, he was still defending the latter.
I do have empathy for Dan. It really hurts when you're trying to help people and you get called out for saying something racist or anti-trans or just thoughtlessly hurtful. It has happened to me-- not in public of course, because I am not a public figure, but it was still painful and embarrassing. I also have empathy for those who were hurt by Dan's comments. It's hard when someone you respect says something that makes you feel inferior. Have some empathy yourself for these people, and don't tar them all as "vile and hateful attention-whores." And if we're going to say someone should toughen up, I think it should be the nationally prominent writer, not the high school or college kid. Dan's reputation does not seem in particular danger to me.
Anyway, my suggestion was based on Amp's Guide to Not Being A Doofus When Accused of Racism (http://www.amptoons.com/blog/2005/12/02/…)
I won't reproduce the whole thing, but the four main points are:
1) Breathe. Stay calm.
2) Take the criticism seriously
3) Don’t make it about you.
4) Let Occasional Unfair Accusations Roll Off Your Back.
I think this is a useful guide for people who want to be conscious of social justice issues, and I wish Dan would follow it.
I do have empathy for Dan. It really hurts when you're trying to help people and you get called out for saying something racist or anti-trans or just thoughtlessly hurtful. It has happened to me-- not in public of course, because I am not a public figure, but it was still painful and embarrassing. I also have empathy for those who were hurt by Dan's comments. It's hard when someone you respect says something that makes you feel inferior. Have some empathy yourself for these people, and don't tar them all as "vile and hateful attention-whores." And if we're going to say someone should toughen up, I think it should be the nationally prominent writer, not the high school or college kid. Dan's reputation does not seem in particular danger to me.
Anyway, my suggestion was based on Amp's Guide to Not Being A Doofus When Accused of Racism (http://www.amptoons.com/blog/2005/12/02/…)
I won't reproduce the whole thing, but the four main points are:
1) Breathe. Stay calm.
2) Take the criticism seriously
3) Don’t make it about you.
4) Let Occasional Unfair Accusations Roll Off Your Back.
I think this is a useful guide for people who want to be conscious of social justice issues, and I wish Dan would follow it.
40
@35: Nice derail. If you anoint yourself a spokesperson for another group of people, and those people keep saying you're doing it wrong, then maybe you should just once stop, listen, and ask how to do it better instead of continually patting yourself on the back like Savage does.
And the next time Brian Fischer or some other right wing bigot says they're not homophobic because they're not Fred Phelps, I hope you, Savage, and everyone who agrees with the two of you here won't say anything, because you've just cut the legs out from under yourselves.
And the next time Brian Fischer or some other right wing bigot says they're not homophobic because they're not Fred Phelps, I hope you, Savage, and everyone who agrees with the two of you here won't say anything, because you've just cut the legs out from under yourselves.
41
@39,
Yes he apologized for the joke, it's as an update to the very blog post in question.
Regarding bisexuality, his 1999 post was too harsh I agree, but pretty much everything he's said since then has been pragmatic advice. He's always been upfront about making sure you and your partner want more or less the same things, which leads (as I've understood it) to the two following bits of advice which apply very generally: 1) if your partner has strong kinks or desires that you are unwilling or unable to satisfy, then you need to negotiate allowances 2) if sexual exclusivity is a must for you, then you're not a good match.
How would this advice work out in the context of BDSM? Would it be inappropriate to tell someone who is a vanilla monogamist that they should be hesitant to consider a long term relationship with someone into BDSM? Would it be inappropriate to tell someone into BDSM that they should try to look for partners in the BDSM community? I don't think so.
Does that mean there are no successful relationships where one is vanilla and the other into BDSM? Of course not. Some vanilla people learn to enjoy light BDSM play, some monogamists learn to be okay with some sex outside the relationship, some people into BDSM learn to live with just porn and their imagination. But in every such relationship, overcoming their differences requires from the outset a significant amount of negotiation and flexibility on the part of both partners. Relationships are hard enough even when your sexual desires are more or less the same; adding extra hurdles at the beginning, when you're looking for a partner just decreases the odds of making a relationship last.
Now, imagine how that advice plays out in the context of bisexuality. Is there anything wrong with suggesting that gays would have better luck dating other gays, for the same reasons a vanilla person would have better luck dating other vanilla people? Is that biphobic? I honestly don't see it, unless the earlier advice is kink-phobic. In which case, those words mean something different to us.
More...
Yes he apologized for the joke, it's as an update to the very blog post in question.
UPDATE: I'm getting some very angry emails about this post. What can I say? I'm so sorry. I wrote the post in a hurry but that's really no excuse.
Regarding bisexuality, his 1999 post was too harsh I agree, but pretty much everything he's said since then has been pragmatic advice. He's always been upfront about making sure you and your partner want more or less the same things, which leads (as I've understood it) to the two following bits of advice which apply very generally: 1) if your partner has strong kinks or desires that you are unwilling or unable to satisfy, then you need to negotiate allowances 2) if sexual exclusivity is a must for you, then you're not a good match.
How would this advice work out in the context of BDSM? Would it be inappropriate to tell someone who is a vanilla monogamist that they should be hesitant to consider a long term relationship with someone into BDSM? Would it be inappropriate to tell someone into BDSM that they should try to look for partners in the BDSM community? I don't think so.
Does that mean there are no successful relationships where one is vanilla and the other into BDSM? Of course not. Some vanilla people learn to enjoy light BDSM play, some monogamists learn to be okay with some sex outside the relationship, some people into BDSM learn to live with just porn and their imagination. But in every such relationship, overcoming their differences requires from the outset a significant amount of negotiation and flexibility on the part of both partners. Relationships are hard enough even when your sexual desires are more or less the same; adding extra hurdles at the beginning, when you're looking for a partner just decreases the odds of making a relationship last.
Now, imagine how that advice plays out in the context of bisexuality. Is there anything wrong with suggesting that gays would have better luck dating other gays, for the same reasons a vanilla person would have better luck dating other vanilla people? Is that biphobic? I honestly don't see it, unless the earlier advice is kink-phobic. In which case, those words mean something different to us.
42
@39,
Part of what bothers me about many of his critics is their chronic inability to see nuance in his arguments (or anything else it seems). For them, you have to agree completely with what they say, or you're the devil. Consider this response from Womanist Musings to one of Dan's earlier articles about bisexuality.
Do you really consider what he wrote a "biphobic rant"? You're calm and thoughtful in your criticisms of Dan, but there seem to be far more (or at least far noisier) critics of the variety seen on the aforementioned blog, who, without batting an eye say things like
Part of what bothers me about many of his critics is their chronic inability to see nuance in his arguments (or anything else it seems). For them, you have to agree completely with what they say, or you're the devil. Consider this response from Womanist Musings to one of Dan's earlier articles about bisexuality.
Do you really consider what he wrote a "biphobic rant"? You're calm and thoughtful in your criticisms of Dan, but there seem to be far more (or at least far noisier) critics of the variety seen on the aforementioned blog, who, without batting an eye say things like
I am sure if the dictionary were to define douchebaggery, an image of Dan Savage, would be all that is needed to adequately explain the term. I don't believe that there is an ism that he has not whole heartedly embraced, while having the nerve to label himself a liberal.
43
As a normal person, I think it's hilarious to watch the various factions of perverts attack each other, and invent/declare endless new modes of political correctness to impose on each other.
This is what happens to all radical movements -- they eat their young. Just ask Robespierre !
I have no doubt that a couple years from now, we'll be here reading about sensitive terms for zoophiles (people who have sex with animals) and pedophiles. Is it ok to call them "zoos" ?? Dan Savage will take some erudite position on it.
I despise Dan Savage and the rest of the pervert activists. It's remarkable and amusing that there are people even more extreme than him, who find HIM intolerant.
This is what happens to all radical movements -- they eat their young. Just ask Robespierre !
I have no doubt that a couple years from now, we'll be here reading about sensitive terms for zoophiles (people who have sex with animals) and pedophiles. Is it ok to call them "zoos" ?? Dan Savage will take some erudite position on it.
I despise Dan Savage and the rest of the pervert activists. It's remarkable and amusing that there are people even more extreme than him, who find HIM intolerant.
44
Jesus. I almost hope a bill like this passes (this particular one seems to be dead?) just to see the look on all these fucktards' faces when they collectively realize transguys exist. And that men – testosterone-filled, hairy, beardy, buff MEN – are now LEGALLY REQUIRED to use women's restrooms. Because of a bill to keep 'men' out of women's restrooms.
45
O SHIIIT... that makes TWO! Are you honestly more worried about who is "MORE" transphobic than you?? Get your priorities right.
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