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News & ArtsFriday, January 27, 2012
Olympia Lowering the Minimum Wage for Tipped Employees: Yes or No?
Posted by Dominic Holden on Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 7:43 AM
A passel of Republican legislators have a bill in Olympia, which has its first hearing on Tuesday, that would lower Washington State's minimum wage for employees who receive tips. Including a provision that says the tips those employees receive must at least make up for the drop in wages, the bill would reduce the pay from $9.04 an hour (among the highest minimum wage in the country) to $7.25 an hour.
That would still be a much better deal than, say, Arkansas, where the minimum cash wage for tipped employees is $2.63. In Delaware it's $2.23. In Indiana it's $2.13. (Here's a state-by-state wage table.)
Restaurant owners need to catch a break: Rising minimum wages, growing health-care costs, new mandatory sick-leave pay in Seattle, climbing food costs, and other expenses keep swiping from their bottom line. They run on tiny profit margins—sometimes in the red during slow months—and every week Bethany is posting about a slew of restaurants that have closed. This is only a minor pay adjustment that could help them out. So on the one hand, it seems like basic business sense. But then there are the workers struggling to just get by: Customers and employers demand service employees who are capable of performing above a minimum-wage skill level: That is, we expect our waiters to be capable of rapid multitasking, displaying incredible interpersonal skills, being knowledgeable, and hustling for hours without a break. Those folks get minimum wage plus tips because, if you paid them much less, they'd go to another job that paid competitively for that skill set. Meanwhile, other workers who make less than waiters would be more affected: Baristas, front desk hosts, concierges, and others rely far more on wages than tips, and for them, $7.25 an hour with less-than-full-time schedules and erratic tips could mean living in poverty.
So we need a poll to decide the future of enterprise and workers—and you're just the person to cast the vote.
4
I don't know why we're even discussing this. They're poor people, right? The real question is whether we can make them pay for some salt to rub into their eyes.
5
I used to enjoy a restaurant in San Diego that added a flat service charge and didn't accept tips beyond that (if you left one, it was given to charity). I was fine with this - 18% is well below what I would normally tip anyway - but from the yelp reviews, most people HATE it.
That said, I don't really understand how the tipping works in Seattle. Do people get this $9 regardless of tips, per hour, on top of tips? Or is it just for hours where their tips do not exceed the $9? Or is it in a pay period, if their average tips per hour do not exceed $9, then they get that minima wage instead?
If they earn $9/hour regardless of what their tips are, that's a lot.
That said, I don't really understand how the tipping works in Seattle. Do people get this $9 regardless of tips, per hour, on top of tips? Or is it just for hours where their tips do not exceed the $9? Or is it in a pay period, if their average tips per hour do not exceed $9, then they get that minima wage instead?
If they earn $9/hour regardless of what their tips are, that's a lot.
6
I don't think that the minimum wage should be lowered. Your selective bolding makes me think that you're in favor of it, which is kind of surprising.
That said, I suspect that if more people knew that their servers are making at least a base pay of $9/hour instead of the $2/hour common in many other states, they might feel ever so slightly less generous when calculating gratuities.
That said, I suspect that if more people knew that their servers are making at least a base pay of $9/hour instead of the $2/hour common in many other states, they might feel ever so slightly less generous when calculating gratuities.
7
The answer, as always, is: it depends.
The cost of living is highly variable around the state yet minimum wage and many taxes are set statewide. Then, of course, federal income taxes kinda sorta indirectly take that into account. Of course, we don't have a state income tax that could indirectly kinda sorta take that into account. So...
As for some of the premises of the post... there is not always competition. There is not ever competition in certain locales.
I wonder how the minimum wage ripples through the economy and society. I'd guess there is some effect on high school dropout rates and college admissions, for example. Maybe.
The cost of living is highly variable around the state yet minimum wage and many taxes are set statewide. Then, of course, federal income taxes kinda sorta indirectly take that into account. Of course, we don't have a state income tax that could indirectly kinda sorta take that into account. So...
As for some of the premises of the post... there is not always competition. There is not ever competition in certain locales.
I wonder how the minimum wage ripples through the economy and society. I'd guess there is some effect on high school dropout rates and college admissions, for example. Maybe.
8
@6) I bolded one argument in favor and one argument opposed, to be fair. (FWIW, I was a waiter for 12 years.)
9
@4 Exactly. No one is living high on the hog from being a barista for Christs sake.
This is a slippery slope, and once you lower the wages once, it will be done again, and again until we are at Indiana's $2.13.
Why do restaurant owners need to catch a break? Surly they've been briefed on the risks of the Seattle restaurant industry before putting their life's savings into a shitty restaurant that's mismanaged into oblivion.
If ALL restaurants were failing then that would be one thing, but they are not. There are some Seattle places that are expanding while providing their employees with benefits.
New York* is constantly changing the landscape of it's eateries and no one says shit. You want to know why? Because NYC is known as one of the restaurant meccas of the world and that means a highly competive market where you need to be good at many things to succeed (not just at culinary skills, but at marketing, business, staff development, etc). If Seattle wants to play in that league, it needs to STFU and let them fade away. Some good will go, but mostly bad.
*(I hate New York)
This is a slippery slope, and once you lower the wages once, it will be done again, and again until we are at Indiana's $2.13.
Why do restaurant owners need to catch a break? Surly they've been briefed on the risks of the Seattle restaurant industry before putting their life's savings into a shitty restaurant that's mismanaged into oblivion.
If ALL restaurants were failing then that would be one thing, but they are not. There are some Seattle places that are expanding while providing their employees with benefits.
New York* is constantly changing the landscape of it's eateries and no one says shit. You want to know why? Because NYC is known as one of the restaurant meccas of the world and that means a highly competive market where you need to be good at many things to succeed (not just at culinary skills, but at marketing, business, staff development, etc). If Seattle wants to play in that league, it needs to STFU and let them fade away. Some good will go, but mostly bad.
*(I hate New York)
10
I will start out by saying that I leave large tips, mostly due to extensive personal experience in the restaurant industry.
That said, I don't feel sorry for most Seattle waitstaff at all. In fact I think most of those people get paid a sweet wage when one includes the tip, and have a pretty job that allows an awful lot of flexibility. That's the thing, right? I know people like to complain a lot about the instability of a table-waiting job, but the other side of that coin is flexibility. Lots of the trendy young things waiting tables in urban areas are doing it by choice, to subsidize their various arty "real" callings or just because they really can't stand being tied down to a 9-to-5.
And that's great for them, I'm not saying it should be any different. I tip generously because I think that the privilege of being waited on is something I should pay well for or be a classist asshole. But I don't feel sorry for waitstaff, not one bit.
That said, I don't feel sorry for most Seattle waitstaff at all. In fact I think most of those people get paid a sweet wage when one includes the tip, and have a pretty job that allows an awful lot of flexibility. That's the thing, right? I know people like to complain a lot about the instability of a table-waiting job, but the other side of that coin is flexibility. Lots of the trendy young things waiting tables in urban areas are doing it by choice, to subsidize their various arty "real" callings or just because they really can't stand being tied down to a 9-to-5.
And that's great for them, I'm not saying it should be any different. I tip generously because I think that the privilege of being waited on is something I should pay well for or be a classist asshole. But I don't feel sorry for waitstaff, not one bit.
11
There is no good reason to cut the pay of tens of thousands of working people trying to make ends meet in the middle of a recession - especially when Washington state’s long experience makes it clear that a strong minimum wage law protects paychecks and boosts our local economies.
There are actually three different bills in the legislature this year aimed at undercutting Washington state’s best-in-the-nation minimum wage in some fashion:
- The first would use a more obscure measure of inflation to reduce cost-of-living adjustments. (http://apps.leg.wa.gov/billinfo/summary.…)
- The second would penalize employees who earn tips by lowering their minimum wage; (http://apps.leg.wa.gov/billinfo/summary.…)
- The third would outright prohibit a cost-of-living adjustment to the minimum wage when people need it most – when the economy takes a downturn. http://apps.leg.wa.gov/billinfo/summary.…
Four of the eight legislators sponsoring one or more of the three bills have close ties to the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC), which has long sought to overturn state minimum wage laws, and even provides model legislation for state lawmakers to use for that end.
More: http://washingtonpolicywatch.org/2012/01…
There are actually three different bills in the legislature this year aimed at undercutting Washington state’s best-in-the-nation minimum wage in some fashion:
- The first would use a more obscure measure of inflation to reduce cost-of-living adjustments. (http://apps.leg.wa.gov/billinfo/summary.…)
- The second would penalize employees who earn tips by lowering their minimum wage; (http://apps.leg.wa.gov/billinfo/summary.…)
- The third would outright prohibit a cost-of-living adjustment to the minimum wage when people need it most – when the economy takes a downturn. http://apps.leg.wa.gov/billinfo/summary.…
Four of the eight legislators sponsoring one or more of the three bills have close ties to the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC), which has long sought to overturn state minimum wage laws, and even provides model legislation for state lawmakers to use for that end.
More: http://washingtonpolicywatch.org/2012/01…
13
I live in Ohio, but I have seen how restaurants can game this system once the minimum wage on servers is reduced. Now first, let me say that MOST restaurants DON'T game the system. However, I once went to a Golden Corral. This is a buffet restaurant. You pay your money and you get your food from the buffet, EXCEPT you can not get drinks from the buffet. They are brought to you by your server. Also, silverware is provided by your "server". The last time I went to a Golden Corral in Ohio, if an employee was classified as a server they are paid $2.15 per hour, the rest was expected to be made up in tips. I know this because the restaurant had printed notices telling me that my "server" was only being paid $2.15 per hour and that tips were needed to get them to a minimum wage. Really, how many people want to tip someone who only happens to bring them coffee or a soda, while the customer gets the food themselves? We did tip that night and never returned to the chain because of their mistreatment of their employees. Like Mitt Romney's taxes, what the chain did fell within the letter of the law, but it totally violated the spirit of the law and frankly made me feel dirty.
Servers should not have to depend on the kindness of strangers to make a living wage. I personally pay 20% of the bill as a tip for normal service and will go up for great service, but employees should not be dependent on the generosity of patrons to make their living.
Servers should not have to depend on the kindness of strangers to make a living wage. I personally pay 20% of the bill as a tip for normal service and will go up for great service, but employees should not be dependent on the generosity of patrons to make their living.
14
Idiot.
These are the people who should be getting wage increases, not decreases.
For myself, I always tip 20%, no matter the service.
That's my contribution to economic recovery.
15
Well it's about time that somebody cracked down on those fat cat waiters and waitresses. I'm sick of them driving to work in their brand new BMW's and walking in their fancy solid gold shoes rubbing my nose in it. Like that time when I saw a picture of my waiter getting his shoes shined on the tarmac while he was waiting for his private jet to fly him from his mansion to his private island.
Seriously though. WTF? This constant attack on the poor (let's be honest. Very few waiters are wealthy or even upper middle class) from Republicans is disgusting. If we make it so they can't make a decent living working then we're just going to have to pay for their food stamps.
If a restaurant is going broke then they have to lower expenses (cheaper food, fewer workers, lower rent building, etc) or increase revenue (raise price of the meals, bring in more customers etc) or they go out of business and a different restaurant moves in. Add $1-2 to each meal and most customers won't notice it and you'll more than make up for the $1-2/hr in wages.
Seriously though. WTF? This constant attack on the poor (let's be honest. Very few waiters are wealthy or even upper middle class) from Republicans is disgusting. If we make it so they can't make a decent living working then we're just going to have to pay for their food stamps.
If a restaurant is going broke then they have to lower expenses (cheaper food, fewer workers, lower rent building, etc) or increase revenue (raise price of the meals, bring in more customers etc) or they go out of business and a different restaurant moves in. Add $1-2 to each meal and most customers won't notice it and you'll more than make up for the $1-2/hr in wages.
16
Why do I get the feeling that Seattle's own millionaire conservative pizza baron Dave Meinert is behind this?
17
I blame two things for this. First is the massive number of tip jars that have sprung up at every damn take out joint. Seriously, you expect me to tip you because you put my food in a bag? The second thing, I went to a restaurant recently where at the bottom of the bill was a list of tip totals for 20% (ok, I'd think about that one), 25% and 30% (wtf). Perhaps this is push back at such asshattery.
18
If the minimum wage is such a hassle, then paying someone $40K, or $90K, or $150K a year must be terrible. So let's have these Republicranks write a bill to cut everyone's salaries by 20% (equivalent to reducing the minimum wage from the current $9.04 to $7.25), with the difference to be made up by all the "happy customers" at the various businesses in Washington state.
That idea wouldn't even get a second look (except probably in the next Republican debate). But somehow sticking it to a single mom waiting tables to get herself through community college is okay, or cutting the already meager paycheck of some dude making sandwiches at Subway is fine, because people will 'give them a little something for their trouble' or somesuch.
Worse is listening to Duke Moscrip, owner of 6 Duke's Chowder House restaurants, describe how he thinks his wait staff are overpaid because of his own customers' generosity - totally blind to the fact those customers wouldn't exist if not for those very servers doing great work: http://www.king5.com/news/local/Proposed…
That idea wouldn't even get a second look (except probably in the next Republican debate). But somehow sticking it to a single mom waiting tables to get herself through community college is okay, or cutting the already meager paycheck of some dude making sandwiches at Subway is fine, because people will 'give them a little something for their trouble' or somesuch.
Worse is listening to Duke Moscrip, owner of 6 Duke's Chowder House restaurants, describe how he thinks his wait staff are overpaid because of his own customers' generosity - totally blind to the fact those customers wouldn't exist if not for those very servers doing great work: http://www.king5.com/news/local/Proposed…
19
I am an older student who works in a bar. My wages (hourly pay) cover my rent. My tips pay for groceries, eating out, birthday presents, text books, etc. I'm lucky enough that my tuition is covered, but I'm still far under the official poverty level.
20
First, I think we should shitcan tips and pay waitstaff a working wage.
Second, if we lower the minimum wage for jobs with a tip component, where exactly are these super hustling, multitasking interpersonal wizards going to go that pays them more for those skills? What are these jobs?
Second, if we lower the minimum wage for jobs with a tip component, where exactly are these super hustling, multitasking interpersonal wizards going to go that pays them more for those skills? What are these jobs?
21
Am I missing something here?
Very few tipped workers, especially restaurant employees, can get even 30-35 hours per week. And it's not exactly a living wage industry -maybe with the exception of the few people working at high-end restaurants. Arguing that what I decide to tip should subsidize an employer is bullshit. It's called a fucking tip for a reason - it's not required. And also having worked in a restaurant I know some people just don't tip.
I'm tired of subsidizing business - let them pay their employees the minimum wage, and let me tip for a job well done. What a douchy bill.
Very few tipped workers, especially restaurant employees, can get even 30-35 hours per week. And it's not exactly a living wage industry -maybe with the exception of the few people working at high-end restaurants. Arguing that what I decide to tip should subsidize an employer is bullshit. It's called a fucking tip for a reason - it's not required. And also having worked in a restaurant I know some people just don't tip.
I'm tired of subsidizing business - let them pay their employees the minimum wage, and let me tip for a job well done. What a douchy bill.
22
I used to support the minimum wage until I learned some economics. In this case, lowering the minimum wage would likely be good for marginal employees and would help keep some people in the restaurant business employed. For those interested in exactly why, you can't go wrong with Becker. He's discussing a national increase in the minimum wage from a few years ago, but the same reasoning applies. http://www.becker-posner-blog.com/2006/1…
23
I am not for lowering the miniumu wage, but tell me again why servers should be getting paid more? It is a job that nearly anyone with the ability to write and appear normal can do, which is a lot of fucking people. I worked as a server for years at a busy brewery here in the city, one where knowledge (meaning being able to coherently and accurately describe the flavors of everything involved) of the changing menu and beer was mandatory, and I would have to say that even though the expectations were higher than that of your typical server, I certainly do not think I should have been paid more than minimum wage, or even more than $10 an hour. That is a lot of money on top of tips. Hell, on a slow lunch I would still pocket $50 which is plenty on top of $9 an hour. And, if you are into serving as a lifelong career, you can approach it like any other industry: work hard to move up and get paid more. You may start at some low brow, standard fare place but, if you put your time in and you are motivated, you can move up, become a server at a slightly better place, learn more, become a server at a better place, etc. Before you know it you are at a place that requires extensive wine knowledge, you will have developed a wine palate (something of value) as well as a food palate, and you will be paid more not only by your place of employment, but you will be tipped more because you now work at a restaurant where dishes cost way more than $5 to $10. Whoa! In the span of 4 to 6 years you went from a lowly server at a burger joint to a respected employee at a fine restaurant. Crazy how that works. Of course you will have to do more work, but unless you are on wall street, this is like every other industry: the more money you make the more responsibility and work you must do. There are too many jaded, asshole servers out there who dont take the job seriously for anyone to be paid more and, for me, these individuals dont deserve any more money. The industry takes care of itself for the most part. The example above about Golden Corral clearly illustrates a restaurant that is taking advantage of people, but, it is a fucking Golden Corral for fuck sake. Buffet place. Regardless of minimum wage I can tell you right now you will never make any money at a buffet. And, if you dont like the way things look in terms of pay in the service industy, get a different fucking job. There are plenty of other options out there.
More...
24
Like any of you losers report your tips and contribute to the government you worship.
Make that a double barista bitch.
Make that a double barista bitch.
25
For decades the hospitality & restaurant industries in this state enjoyed a cushy exemption from WA minimum wage laws, IF the establishment was part of a national chain, but this loophole was phased out a number of years ago. This appears to be an attempt to return to the "good old days" of paying service employees a paltry salary - as little as 1/3 of minimum wage - and making them dependent on tips for roughly 75% of their salary; income that today, due to changes in federal tax law, must either be reported by the employer, or is subject to other forms of assessment (and in either case is now taxable), and which, due to the now-common practice of tip-sharing, may not even all go to the employee who initially receives it.
Just another example of rich people attempting to get even richer by shoving their fat fingers into the pockets of working stiffs who need the money a lot more...
Just another example of rich people attempting to get even richer by shoving their fat fingers into the pockets of working stiffs who need the money a lot more...
26
@24 Any restaurant where you can make any decent amount of money with tips typically requires that you report them which, with credit/debit cards, makes it very easy to track since you have to cash out at the end of the night. There is a record and you do pay. Anyone not reporting is likely not making any significant amount, for what its worth.
27
If they pass that law, suddenly almost everybody in the restaurant will be declared a tipped employee. They will make the wait staff tip out to the other employees or, even worse, make them pool tips. Suddenly everybody is making less from hourly wage and tips, except the owners.
I tended bar for years, and sometimes waited tables. I tip very well. You have to really screw up to get less than 20%.
I tended bar for years, and sometimes waited tables. I tip very well. You have to really screw up to get less than 20%.
29
If this makes the servers of Seattle slightly less apathetic to their tables then I'm all for it. I don't know if it's just me, but I see a serious lack of customer service in the restaurants around Seattle. Cafe Presse, a favorite of mine, has servers that sometimes won't even check on me after the food has been dropped at the table until I'm done eating and have been staring at them for my check. A couple of days ago I was at a little tapas place in Ballard and they refused to let our large party have anymore than one litle table, even though the restaurant was completely empty at 6 pm.
I worked in the service industry in LA for so many years, when I worked at Starbucks I'd remember all my customers drinks and do regular quality checks on my espresso to make sure it was tasty. I had a level of pride about what I was doing, even if it was just making someone happy with good food and drink. I feel like a majority of the severs in Seattle are just going through the motions of a job, but when I go out for food I'm going for the service and someone to cook my meals for me. I'll tip according to those things. Now that I know they are making so much for ignoring me perhaps I won't tip so much next time I'm not paid attention to.
I worked in the service industry in LA for so many years, when I worked at Starbucks I'd remember all my customers drinks and do regular quality checks on my espresso to make sure it was tasty. I had a level of pride about what I was doing, even if it was just making someone happy with good food and drink. I feel like a majority of the severs in Seattle are just going through the motions of a job, but when I go out for food I'm going for the service and someone to cook my meals for me. I'll tip according to those things. Now that I know they are making so much for ignoring me perhaps I won't tip so much next time I'm not paid attention to.
30
@26 Oh please. I worked in this industry in grad school. No one reported their tips. But damn if they didn't bitch about getting gub'ment help.
31
The guy who owns the local Jack in the Box is facing the exact same thing - "rising minimum wages, growing health-care costs, new mandatory sick-leave pay in Seattle, climbing food costs, and other expenses" - but he finds a way to make it work because his employees aren't tipped so lowering their pay isn't an option. If you own a diner and can't make it work, sell it and buy a fucking McDonalds. Stop rewarding employers simply because their employees happen to receive tips.
32
@23:
Most people could probably mine coal and throw trash into garbage trucks as well; don't need much in the way of education or technical skills for those jobs, either. The point isn't whether or not the average person CAN do those kinds of jobs, but rather, whether or not they WANT to; and my guess is, if you asked people, most of them WOULDN'T. So, if you want those jobs done, you have to pay people at least enough to make it worth their while.
And it's not like most waiters are raking in huge amounts of $$. Sure, $50 in tips may sound pretty decent for a four hour shift, but if you're only working 25 hours a week at a restaurant job in King County, you need to be making at least $15 an hour just to be considered at a living wage rate - not exactly an exorbitant salary by anyone's standard. And that doesn't even take into consideration the fact that a lot of establishments pool tips, which must then be split, not just between the waiters, but with the cooks, the hosts, the dishwashers, et al, so that $50 in extra income gets diluted pretty damned fast.
Seems to me that we have three options: 1.) stick with the current system and tip 18%-20% for good service; 2.) pay service staff an actual living wage, so they don't have to depend on supplemental income from tips, or; 3.) STFU already and eat at home.
Most people could probably mine coal and throw trash into garbage trucks as well; don't need much in the way of education or technical skills for those jobs, either. The point isn't whether or not the average person CAN do those kinds of jobs, but rather, whether or not they WANT to; and my guess is, if you asked people, most of them WOULDN'T. So, if you want those jobs done, you have to pay people at least enough to make it worth their while.
And it's not like most waiters are raking in huge amounts of $$. Sure, $50 in tips may sound pretty decent for a four hour shift, but if you're only working 25 hours a week at a restaurant job in King County, you need to be making at least $15 an hour just to be considered at a living wage rate - not exactly an exorbitant salary by anyone's standard. And that doesn't even take into consideration the fact that a lot of establishments pool tips, which must then be split, not just between the waiters, but with the cooks, the hosts, the dishwashers, et al, so that $50 in extra income gets diluted pretty damned fast.
Seems to me that we have three options: 1.) stick with the current system and tip 18%-20% for good service; 2.) pay service staff an actual living wage, so they don't have to depend on supplemental income from tips, or; 3.) STFU already and eat at home.
33
I have no sympathy for the restaurant owners. If they can't balance their books, they shouldn't be in business, not taking it out on their employees.
34
@22 Exactly! That's why there are no restaurant workers here in Washington State (among the highest minimum wages in the country).
In fact, there are precious few restaurants at all, what with the high labor costs.
In fact, there are precious few restaurants at all, what with the high labor costs.
36
It sure would be nice if cooks took home as much as waitstaff (and let's not even mention bartenders).
But the way to get there from here is via things like mandaroty tip pooling, or tip-scaled wage increases for cooks, and not through cutting pay for servers.
But the way to get there from here is via things like mandaroty tip pooling, or tip-scaled wage increases for cooks, and not through cutting pay for servers.
37
I've waited tables in Washington and in an east coast state that had lower wages ($2.50 or so) for tipped employees. Back there, the managers required the waitstaff to do several hours of prep and cleaning before and after each shift, at that lower rate, to replace staff who would get regular minimum wage. And they hired the bare minimum of bussers and hosts, perhaps instead having one more waitstaff than really necessary on shift so that the waitstaff would cover those other tasks.
38
No, no, no. $2.13 an hour just isn't low enough. We can do better than Indiana. We could pay waiters $40 a month and make them work 80 hours a week, like they do in China. Or better yet, we could abandon wages altogether, and return to slavery. Would that satisfy restaurant owners?
/sarcasm
/sarcasm
39
It is hard enough to get by delivering pizza at minimum much less with a pay cut. Working five hours a day at any job doesn't net much at minimum wage, and anyone doing deliveries for tips have a car on top of that. The only reason to work any job for tips is that the tips make up for the short hours, and short shifts are all that are available in food.
40
First there is definitely no rational I can see for cutting hard working people's wages that are already comparatively very low to begin with. That's not a solution to this problem, and there definitely is a problem. If we want restaurants to have an easier time paying their bills then more people need disposable income to spend at restaurants, so they can go more frequently and pay a higher price without it hurting their pocket books. For that we need a strong middle class, with a good cash flow going through it. That of course is easier said than done, but the modern version of trickle down economics that Republicans are (again) trying to force on everyone isn't going to help anything. There are not enough mythic "job creators" to fill restaurants.
41
Ah, so the Republicans are suggesting that we raise the minimum wage for all in the interest of "fairness"?
It's not like the people suggesting this are good tippers, anyway.
It's not like the people suggesting this are good tippers, anyway.
42
Two words: disposable income. Apart from low-cost franchises; restaurants, bars, and other eateries rely upon middle-class patrons who can afford to pay someone else to cook for them. I have no doubt that the economic downturn has meant hard times for the restaurant owners, and I don't begrude them their desire to preserve their businesses. But I do not, nor will I ever, consider balancing the problems of the restaurant industry upon those who are most vulnerable and in the greatest need of a living wage. Wait-staff (yes, even that one guy who royally pissed you off at your favorite eatery last week) didn't cause this problem; it's disgusting to blame them for this predicament, and even moreso to consider a paycut 'fair.'
Tipping is a sad product of a bygone era, (and I personally would like to see it abolished in favor of a wage system) but right or wrong, the people who serve you need that money to survive. I am always distressed to read accounts of people who seem to look for the slightest reason not to tip, and I think most of them have never had to worry that a substantial part of their paycheck is subject to the whims of another person who may or may not have delusions of superiority. Fuck them.
Tipping is a sad product of a bygone era, (and I personally would like to see it abolished in favor of a wage system) but right or wrong, the people who serve you need that money to survive. I am always distressed to read accounts of people who seem to look for the slightest reason not to tip, and I think most of them have never had to worry that a substantial part of their paycheck is subject to the whims of another person who may or may not have delusions of superiority. Fuck them.
44
The bill will be heard in committee Monday at 10 a.m. (House Committee on Labor & Workforce Development). If you can't get there - cause you know, you're not a lobbyist who's paid way more than minimum wage to be there and everything - you should send your thoughts/objections to members of the committee: http://www.leg.wa.gov/House/Committees/L…
45
I say no. This is one thing that WA state has over other states, and I'm okay with paying more for my meal if it means the person bringing it to me can be certain that rent and bills will be paid this month.
46
THIS IDEA IS CRAZY. I cannot even fathom it's put into practice in some states. Why should the public be expected to make up a a deficit in a person's wage? A TIP IS A TIP even though it is expected, it's not required. I dont' see how the restaurant industry should have a special exception. This idea makes me sick. Serving/bartending is one of the last fields a person can make a semi-decent wage without a degree (or with, really.) It needs to stay that way.
47
@45: "I'm okay with paying more for my meal"
Is anyone seriously stupid enough to believe that the salary change would necessarily mean a reduction in menu prices?
Is anyone seriously stupid enough to believe that the salary change would necessarily mean a reduction in menu prices?
48
I believe (although, if I'm wrong, feel free to correct me) that, when tips are expected to make up for wages, the restaurant owner is responsible for paying the balance. So, if a server doesn't make enough in tips to equal ~$7/hour, the restaurant owner has to chip in enough to bring the wage up to the minimum.
That said, I still think this law is bullshit. I already hate tipping and wish wages would be high enough to not have to do it at all. But the fucking Republicans want to make it so people feel *obligated* to tip? Fuck that shit.
@29,
I definitely sympathize, but I don't think this law is a solution. In my experience, apathy toward customer service goes all the way to the top. If the owners don't give a shit, then lowering server pay is hardly going to solve the problem.
Why should the public be expected to make up a a deficit in a person's wage? A TIP IS A TIP even though it is expected, it's not required
I believe (although, if I'm wrong, feel free to correct me) that, when tips are expected to make up for wages, the restaurant owner is responsible for paying the balance. So, if a server doesn't make enough in tips to equal ~$7/hour, the restaurant owner has to chip in enough to bring the wage up to the minimum.
That said, I still think this law is bullshit. I already hate tipping and wish wages would be high enough to not have to do it at all. But the fucking Republicans want to make it so people feel *obligated* to tip? Fuck that shit.
@29,
I definitely sympathize, but I don't think this law is a solution. In my experience, apathy toward customer service goes all the way to the top. If the owners don't give a shit, then lowering server pay is hardly going to solve the problem.
49
@32 $15 is minimum living wage? Where the hell did you get that? That is 28800 a year before taxes. I started at $13 an hour with my present company and I had no problem paying rent, buying food, getting around, and saving a little bit every month. I am frugal but certainly didnt scrimp. Seems like their present wage is good enough to me. In fact I know it is. I did it just fine.
50
@30 Well if you work at a restaurant with a computer (most restaurants these days) you have to adjust your tips through that computer, which gets printed out, which you then submit when you cash in your till, which then gets recorded and goes on your paycheck. When were you in grad school? The 90's?
51
Will they include the legislature in with this? Cut their income down to $7/hr and get the rest in tips.
52
@49,
Living wage is generally calculated to include the possibility/likelihood of children. Can you raise a child on $13/hour in Seattle?
Living wage is generally calculated to include the possibility/likelihood of children. Can you raise a child on $13/hour in Seattle?
53
Assuming full-time work (40 hours/week), in some parts of Washington the minimum wage meets the standard of a living wage for a household of one. However, this is not the case for urban areas, and the minimum wage is far below the wage needed to reasonably support a household of two or more across in the state.
Moreover, many individuals in low-wage sectors work fewer than 40 hours per week. In retail, the average work week was 31.3 hours in 2011, providing about $14,000 in annual income for the typical minimum wage worker. In leisure and hospitality, the average work week was 25.9 hours in 2011, or about $12,000 in annual income.
More info here: http://www.eoionline.org/minimum_wage/re…
Moreover, many individuals in low-wage sectors work fewer than 40 hours per week. In retail, the average work week was 31.3 hours in 2011, providing about $14,000 in annual income for the typical minimum wage worker. In leisure and hospitality, the average work week was 25.9 hours in 2011, or about $12,000 in annual income.
More info here: http://www.eoionline.org/minimum_wage/re…
54
Um, how much oversight would there be to ensure those employees actually GET their tips? I have heard too many horror stories about tips just getting poured back into the business/the owner to trust this even remotely.
55
@23 "And, if you dont like the way things look in terms of pay in the service industy, get a different fucking job. There are plenty of other options out there."
Where the fuck do you live? Not in this plane of time and reality, that's for damn sure.
At any rate, I honestly love it when I travel places where tipping is frowned upon or prohibited (after getting over the initial guilt). I especially like not having to tip EVERYONE for ANYTHING (we have gone a little tip crazy here). Overall though, I know how hard good servers work and I want to reward them for that...because a tip should be a reward for providing good service and an incentive to keep it up, rather than being made out of guilt because you know the server who screwed up your entire order won't be able to pay the rent without it.
Where the fuck do you live? Not in this plane of time and reality, that's for damn sure.
At any rate, I honestly love it when I travel places where tipping is frowned upon or prohibited (after getting over the initial guilt). I especially like not having to tip EVERYONE for ANYTHING (we have gone a little tip crazy here). Overall though, I know how hard good servers work and I want to reward them for that...because a tip should be a reward for providing good service and an incentive to keep it up, rather than being made out of guilt because you know the server who screwed up your entire order won't be able to pay the rent without it.
56
@54 Excellent question. I have a friend who bartended at the Kort Haus briefly. The owner kept stealing her tips by closing out her customers and either punching in his own code on the credit card machine or insisting that the cash customers didn't leave a tip (often people she knew who always tipped a buck per drink). She called him on it and he kept doing it so she quit.
57
The truth of the matter is that the tipping for a server's wages is totally fucked. In Europe servers earn a decent wage so they don't need to beg for that measly dime that you left for your server's work. People who are served by wait staff are often punished for things that are totally beyond their control. If the food was shitty it's not their fault. They didn't prepare it. Are you going to do the proper thing and bitch out the cook? No, I didn't think so. You're going to blame the wait person and stiff him/her out of a decent tip.
58
The days of untaxed tips are pretty much over, so the hourly paycheck goes towards paying the taxes on tips earned during that pay period. A lower hourly wage means you may not be able to cover the taxes, and have to write a check back to your employer.
60
I think lowering minimum wage for tipped-employees is totally bogus. The whole idea of tipping is suppose to be customary but it's gotten more and more mandatory for almost everything now. Having restaurant/barista/service people rely even more on tips alone to make a living is totally unfair compared to the way a lot of other people are paid. I don't even work in a service industry and I can see how that work suck balls for other people. I can't really add anything else since the other commenters had a lot of good points.
61
ugh, i'm torn. i've worked for tips alone, and made decent money. now i used my expensive college education to make 32.000 a year. it kinda pisses me off that i tip people that make more than me.
62
also, this commenting place is fun to come to if only to reassure myself that there are people waaaayyy crazier than me; holy angry and off topic batman!
63
"we need a strong middle class"
Waiting tables is not middle class work.
Want good paying work? Get the skills. Waiting tables is not a skill.
Waiting tables is not middle class work.
Want good paying work? Get the skills. Waiting tables is not a skill.
64
Lap dancers make a lot of tips. Are they paid minimum wages as well? When service become "Fee for Service", then you are a pro....
65
@52 With that line of reasoning, you are basically aruging that any job should pay a livable wage for someone with a kid. What about two kids? Three?
66
They actually changed the law in the UK a while ago to make it illegal for restaurants to use "service charges" to make up wages.
For what it's worth, I'm a "tipped employee", (though a barista, not a waitress) and I'm pretty sure I'd be fucked if my wages went down by two dollars - I average about 33 hours a week, that's a drop of more then $200 a month. Does whoever wrote this proposal think that we consider tips to be "splurging" money? Almost everyone I work with already factors their expected tips into their budget.
For what it's worth, I'm a "tipped employee", (though a barista, not a waitress) and I'm pretty sure I'd be fucked if my wages went down by two dollars - I average about 33 hours a week, that's a drop of more then $200 a month. Does whoever wrote this proposal think that we consider tips to be "splurging" money? Almost everyone I work with already factors their expected tips into their budget.
67
"I'd be fucked if my wages went down by two dollars - I average about 33 hours a week, that's a drop of more then $200 a month."
Well, unless you're one of those minger baristas, go get a job as a bikini barista. You'll make great tips.
"I'd be fucked if my wages went down by two dollars - I average about 33 hours a week, that's a drop of more then $200 a month."
Well, unless you're one of those minger baristas, go get a job as a bikini barista. You'll make great tips.
68
I really wish lawmakers would stop writing wages into law as a numerical value. $9.04/hour is all well and good in the city (probably not enough), but I could see it being a real problem in small towns, where the cost of living is much less anyway.
Minimum wage should be a percentage based on the average wage or cost of living in the surrounding county or or town, not a set number for an entire state.
Minimum wage should be a percentage based on the average wage or cost of living in the surrounding county or or town, not a set number for an entire state.
69
OUCH that would hurt ALOT.....I'm a server in a very busy, popular, fun restaurant in Lakewood, WA.......hate to say it, but there is RARELY a day that goes by that I don't get stiffed at least once. Not to mention that people have no problem tipping only 10% or under. And it is NOT because I am a bad server. I pride myself on being an EXCELLENT server in fact.
Yes, I do get people that tip 15-20% but unfortunately, that is not the majority of the time. So at the end of the shift after I've tipped out the host, bartender and expo, I usually only walk with 10-12% of my sales.
And yes, we have to claim nearly ALL of our actual tips per day and get taxed on them. For me, I would lose alittle over $200 per month if the minimum wage is lowered.
Yes, I do get people that tip 15-20% but unfortunately, that is not the majority of the time. So at the end of the shift after I've tipped out the host, bartender and expo, I usually only walk with 10-12% of my sales.
And yes, we have to claim nearly ALL of our actual tips per day and get taxed on them. For me, I would lose alittle over $200 per month if the minimum wage is lowered.
70
NO. When did the Stranger staff go from being underpaid baristas to would-be yuppie entrepeneurs?
"Oh, they should be grateful we pay them more than two bucks an hour"
ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME??!!!
What I mean to say is:
You can't live on our state's minimum wage, let alone their state's minimum wage. Even Starbucks employees rarely qualify for any benefits (funny how hard it is for bosses to find enough hours to create a few professional long-term full-time employees ... consider that in your next restaurant review.)
Additionally, the costs of doing business are externalized to employees. To be specific, the cost of dealing with a typical customer who only uses plastic. The charge levied by the credit-card company is taken out of a servers tip, even at "nice" restaurants like Serafina - which is absolutely heinous. Perhaps in addition to having the servers pay up front to wear the polyester outfit of their employers' choice, we can have them pay for the lobbyists and other normal business costs as well?
If you feel like doing all your fine dining from an Automat cafeteria with one surly cashier making $3/hour, by all means move to Arkansas. Don't think for a moment that Seattle can have "world-class cuisine" while paying servers third-world wages,. Hope you like e. coli with that - and it won't even be as special retribution, just part of everyday "professional service".
"Oh, they should be grateful we pay them more than two bucks an hour"
ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME??!!!
What I mean to say is:
You can't live on our state's minimum wage, let alone their state's minimum wage. Even Starbucks employees rarely qualify for any benefits (funny how hard it is for bosses to find enough hours to create a few professional long-term full-time employees ... consider that in your next restaurant review.)
Additionally, the costs of doing business are externalized to employees. To be specific, the cost of dealing with a typical customer who only uses plastic. The charge levied by the credit-card company is taken out of a servers tip, even at "nice" restaurants like Serafina - which is absolutely heinous. Perhaps in addition to having the servers pay up front to wear the polyester outfit of their employers' choice, we can have them pay for the lobbyists and other normal business costs as well?
If you feel like doing all your fine dining from an Automat cafeteria with one surly cashier making $3/hour, by all means move to Arkansas. Don't think for a moment that Seattle can have "world-class cuisine" while paying servers third-world wages,. Hope you like e. coli with that - and it won't even be as special retribution, just part of everyday "professional service".
71
@68: "I really wish lawmakers would stop writing wages into law as a numerical value.
...
Minimum wage should be a percentage based on the average wage or cost of living in the surrounding county or or town, not a set number for an entire state."
The logistics behind anything but absolute values for minimum wage are pretty ridiculous to imagine.
...
Minimum wage should be a percentage based on the average wage or cost of living in the surrounding county or or town, not a set number for an entire state."
The logistics behind anything but absolute values for minimum wage are pretty ridiculous to imagine.
72
37 is correct. Back in my serving days (at $2.13 an hour, not that long ago) the servers were all scheduled for 6-8 hour shifts (unheard of in a restaurant because they're only busy for a couple hours at a time), but they would "rotate us in" and "rotate us out" during our first few and last few scheduled hours, or a couple hours in between lunch and dinner when they would do the same to "give us our breaks." In the state I worked in, they were required to pay you minimum wage for any hours you weren't a "server" (so they couldn't say "for the last hour you're going to fill sugars," they'd have to say "we're rotating you off the floor for the end of your shift, so we're only giving you one more table so you can leave on time") So then you'd end up with one table for your last hour or some hours in the middle between breakfast and lunch, which left you plenty of time for "side work." And let me tell you, that "side work" suuuuuuucked. I was basically a janitor (vacuuming, washing down counters in the service and even some kitchen areas, mopping floors in service areas, etc.), busser (I worked in 2 different restaurants and neither even employed bussers, and part of your side work was always to take the bus tubs to the dishwasher), and stock clerk (not just filling the salt/sugar on the table, but restocking the service areas, coffee making area, the beer fridge, and at one job the line - that's right, the cooks didn't restock their own line, they made the servers do it). I get refilling salt/sugar/ketchup and rolling silverware, but most places went far above that in terms of side work (I have one friend who successfully worked her way through college as a waitress who basically cleaned the whole restaurant on her shift...including half the kitchen and the bathrooms). Somebody please try to make the argument that they weren't intentionally assigning these jobs to the servers because we took the least money out of their pockets so that I can have a laugh. Employers are interested in minimizing their labor expenses, and if you give them a good way to do this (like making servers do work they should be employing other people for) they'll take advantage of it. It reduces employment for others, reduces the hourly wages of servers, and hurts the customer experience (I'm not paying nearly as much attention to you if I've got 5 more items on my side work list and my shift is over in 2 hours).
Maybe if we had something like servers must average a living wage (typically around $15 an hour) through (reduced) wages and tips. If they fail to achieve this hourly wage through tips, an employer must pay them the full minimum wage (which is less than the living wage). If you make the "minimum" requirement high enough, employers won't substitute servers for other employees (because the average of their tips wouldn't be high enough to make this time spent on other work profitable), but can still pay servers less out of pocket when they're making good tips off the customers. Additionally, if you make this a monthly, semi-annual, or annual average, you're probably going to exceed the skill level of most restaurateurs to game the system and get reduced-cost labor out of their employees. Or we could just scrap tipping altogether as others have suggested. Why do I have the right to decide how much my server gets paid, when I don't have the right to decide how much my mechanic, sales clerk, or butcher gets paid, except by research or guessing (which would still be an option when selecting a restaurant to eat in)? And, partially because I live in a place where only real, live restaurant servers are paid "tipped employee" wages, I never put money in tip jars at most establishments, except my local coffee shop when I (a) order a complicated drink (that would be more intensive than an unsweetened latte, which a trained barista can make in like 10 seconds), or (b) order food and they bring it to my table. The most offensive place I've seen a tip jar is a convenience store. Really? Someone please explain to me what I would be tipping for in a convenience store?
More...
Maybe if we had something like servers must average a living wage (typically around $15 an hour) through (reduced) wages and tips. If they fail to achieve this hourly wage through tips, an employer must pay them the full minimum wage (which is less than the living wage). If you make the "minimum" requirement high enough, employers won't substitute servers for other employees (because the average of their tips wouldn't be high enough to make this time spent on other work profitable), but can still pay servers less out of pocket when they're making good tips off the customers. Additionally, if you make this a monthly, semi-annual, or annual average, you're probably going to exceed the skill level of most restaurateurs to game the system and get reduced-cost labor out of their employees. Or we could just scrap tipping altogether as others have suggested. Why do I have the right to decide how much my server gets paid, when I don't have the right to decide how much my mechanic, sales clerk, or butcher gets paid, except by research or guessing (which would still be an option when selecting a restaurant to eat in)? And, partially because I live in a place where only real, live restaurant servers are paid "tipped employee" wages, I never put money in tip jars at most establishments, except my local coffee shop when I (a) order a complicated drink (that would be more intensive than an unsweetened latte, which a trained barista can make in like 10 seconds), or (b) order food and they bring it to my table. The most offensive place I've seen a tip jar is a convenience store. Really? Someone please explain to me what I would be tipping for in a convenience store?
73
I actually find the Federal tip exception to the minimum wage law to be complete bullshit that lowers the capability of servers to make a livable wage. Don't follow suit with this bullshit, WA.
74
Perhaps we could do away with those pesky wages altogether and have the waiters rent tables from the restaurant. Many years ago, I saw exactly this proposal in a restaurant trade magazine. Apparently some people believe that it is unfair to expect the business owner to assume the business risk rather than leaving it on the front line staff.
75
$9 an hour IS poverty wages in this state.
But fuck it. Why are we even discussing this in a venue like Slog that won't even pay their god damned interns AT ALL.
But fuck it. Why are we even discussing this in a venue like Slog that won't even pay their god damned interns AT ALL.
76
@74, that's how many salons do it, and the hairdressers suffer mightily for that. My mom actually gave up her career as a stylist because of this practice. I WAY overtip my stylist because the salon I use rents chairs. Not that she's bad...she's really good, actually, hence my continued patronage...but $10 for a 30-45 minute wash/cut/blowout and $15 for a 1-1.5 hour wash/cut/nice style is kinda a lot (on the order of 30%).
The other problem for this model is that restaurants would probably lower their prices slightly to drive up business if they were totally free from paying the waitstaff (and maybe even receiving income from them), which would drive down tips, since most people tip a percentage of the bill. Something to think about, that I sometimes do, is that we might want to think about what our servers deserve in terms of wages rather than a percentage of the bill. Knowing that servers in my area are making somewhere between $2.13 and $3.77, even if my bill is small, I tip them enough that they'll make $10/hour even if I'm their only table while I'm there. I drop into a place for a quick bite (<20 minutes), I tip AT LEAST $3 (even if my bill is only $5-7). I linger for 2 hours chatting with friends, I make sure the tip is at least $16 (that would be a 20% tip on a $80 bill, which is an awful lot, even for a small group, depending on the place). I have broken this rule for absolutely terrible service that is the fault of the server (servers who try to rush us out by stopping with the waters after 30 minutes, for example), and bump this up if it's an expensive place (with commensurate service), if there are extenuating circumstances (the service is average but the server was juggling an obviously demanding table or too many tables), if I'm a regular who gets that "regular" treatment, or the service is really stellar. If they have more than one table (typical), I make their night...if it's a slow night, I make their night tolerable (and, no, I'm not screwing them on this...ONE generous table is not going to bump them over minimum wage on a truly slow night, so their employer will not get off the hook because of my generosity). I think it's overall a better way to think about tipping.
More...
The other problem for this model is that restaurants would probably lower their prices slightly to drive up business if they were totally free from paying the waitstaff (and maybe even receiving income from them), which would drive down tips, since most people tip a percentage of the bill. Something to think about, that I sometimes do, is that we might want to think about what our servers deserve in terms of wages rather than a percentage of the bill. Knowing that servers in my area are making somewhere between $2.13 and $3.77, even if my bill is small, I tip them enough that they'll make $10/hour even if I'm their only table while I'm there. I drop into a place for a quick bite (<20 minutes), I tip AT LEAST $3 (even if my bill is only $5-7). I linger for 2 hours chatting with friends, I make sure the tip is at least $16 (that would be a 20% tip on a $80 bill, which is an awful lot, even for a small group, depending on the place). I have broken this rule for absolutely terrible service that is the fault of the server (servers who try to rush us out by stopping with the waters after 30 minutes, for example), and bump this up if it's an expensive place (with commensurate service), if there are extenuating circumstances (the service is average but the server was juggling an obviously demanding table or too many tables), if I'm a regular who gets that "regular" treatment, or the service is really stellar. If they have more than one table (typical), I make their night...if it's a slow night, I make their night tolerable (and, no, I'm not screwing them on this...ONE generous table is not going to bump them over minimum wage on a truly slow night, so their employer will not get off the hook because of my generosity). I think it's overall a better way to think about tipping.
77
I'm going to chime in with another FUCK NO. Service jobs already suck enough; why does the legislature have to take a shit on the chests of poor people statewide?
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