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News & ArtsTuesday, January 24, 2012
Savage Love SL Letter of the Day: Coming Unclean
Posted by Dan Savage on Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 2:00 PM
I've been together with my wife for ten years, married for five of them. I love her very much and we have a pretty healthy relationship, sexual and otherwise. My problem is before I met her I occasionally would use the services of a sex worker. I stopped this when I met her, but eventually drifted back into doing this from time to time—several times a year (at least). Despite long periods of restraint, I would still sometimes indulge in a visit to a "massage parlor," strip club, or just see an old fashioned hooker. The sex was almost always unfulfilling, but I think I liked the adventure of it, the ritual of finding someone, finding a place, getting there, etc. I always used protection and got tested periodically to make sure I didn't bring anything home.
I've finally decided that I wanted to stop this behavior, for all the obvious reasons. I love my wife, and she has recently been trying to draw out my fantasies to give us a fuller sex life. I've been hesitant to really share my fantasies with her because I don't know how to without admitting I tried some of this stuff. I need some help moving from a secretive, sexually obsessed dude to a more GGG partner. I haven't seen a therapist as a) I think I've actually done a pretty good job of figuring out my motives, rationales, etc, and b) I'm not sure I could pay for one without my wife finding out. I can't see any benefit from telling her the truth about my past—I think it would only make her upset, and possibly threaten the relationship. Do you have any advice?
Just Old Hetero Nympho
My response after the jump...
···············
So... you couldn't swing one or two sessions with a shrink without your wife somehow spotting the missing money but you were able to see sex workers "several times a year (at least)" for a decade without your wife spotting all that missing money?
Hmm.
I'm not saying you need to see a shrink about this, JOHN, but that's the sort of self-justifying rationalization that you need to knock off if you wanna stop leading a sexual double life and stop putting your wife at risk for acquiring a sexually transmitted infection. (It's nice that you're getting tested and all, JOHN, but getting tested wouldn't prevent you from bringing something home. By the time you get a positive test result back, you—and your newly acquired STI—are already home, and your wife is already exposed. (And the wife never spotted the money you were spending on all those STI tests?))
Before I give you my advice, JOHN, let me get this on the record: I'm not okay with what you were doing. (I'm not okay with the CPOS part; the employing-sex-workers part is fine with me.) I'm not offering you retroactive approval and I am not giving offering you any sort of dispensation. But here goes: don't say anything to your wife about the lying and buying. You got away with it—because you were lucky, not because you were smart—and I think you should spare your wife the disillusioning, divorce-inducing news.
And from here on out, JOHN, you're going to try to be the man she mistook you for, okay?
I'm thinking the reason she's pressing you to open up about your fantasies, JOHN, is because she has some fantasies of her own that she wants to share with you. But she may want you to go first because she wants to make sure her secret fantasy is less depraved than yours before she opens up about her own. So you're going to have to go first.
Ask her if she really, really, really wants to know about your fantasies. Warn her that very few men fantasize about lighting a thousand tea candles and tossing rose petals all over the apartment like Ross did for Rachel on that episode of Friends she saw when she was 12. (Ross did that for Rachel.) Warn her that your fantasies, like most men's fantasies, are a bit transgressive. If she still wants to hear 'em after you warn her, give it to her semi-straight: You've always been intrigued by the idea of paying someone for sex—not that you ever have! not that you ever would!—but you saw Pretty Woman when you were 12 and ever since you've this high-end callgirl fantasy that you've never acted on or told anyone about.
Who knows? Maybe you'll get kinda lucky and your wife will wanna go to hotel bars and roleplay a hooker/john scenarios with you. (It's a pretty mainstream fantasy these days—hell, I think it was a plot line on an episode of Modern Family recently). Or maybe you'll hit the GGG wife jackpot and she'll be up for going to strip clubs and seeing escorts with you.
But whatever you do: No more cheating, JOHN, no more putting your wife at risk. Knock that shit the fuck off.
2
ooh, this comment thread is going to get wild when people start to freak the fuck out about you saying that he shouldn't necessarily come clean about his past cheating...but for what it's worth, i agree. sometimes telling the truth is painful but ultimately cleansing and positive for the relationship. other times it is just painful and leads only to more pain.
3
I think you were a little harsh on the STI stuff - his letter does say he BOTH "always used protection" and got tested regularly. Now, in the immortal words of Dr. House, "everybody lies", so he could be lying about "always". But it's worth noting that he really did seem to take the disease prevention angle seriously.
4
Unfulfilling sex that costs money and that he does over and over again. Hmm. JOHN should consider whether he has a self-destructive streak, because it sounds like he's unconsciously trying to sabotage an otherwise good marriage. That kind of thing usually comes from feeling that you're a bad person and don't deserve what you have, which is well worth exploring with a therapist.
I'm guessing he also never told his wife (before or after they married) that he had seen sex workers before they met, and had that whole discussion in the getting-to-know-you/sexual-compatibility context. Lots of people never did that and still don't do that, but it is part of the new coming-clean paradigm.
I'm guessing he also never told his wife (before or after they married) that he had seen sex workers before they met, and had that whole discussion in the getting-to-know-you/sexual-compatibility context. Lots of people never did that and still don't do that, but it is part of the new coming-clean paradigm.
5
Even though he says "we have a pretty sexual relationship, sexual and otherwise]," does anybody else think that the wife may have started this because she sensed a distance between them growing? Like, maybe she got advice to spice up the relationship and open channels of communication?
6
Re: using "protection," there are STIs for which a condom is a less-effective barrier (such as papilloma viruses), and I'd bet if he got beejays no rubber was used.
7
"I've been hesitant to really share my fantasies with her because I don't know how to without admitting I tried some of this stuff."
Don't most people have a lot of fantasies that they've never acted on?
Don't most people have a lot of fantasies that they've never acted on?
8
"an old fashioned hooker"
Does this mean he has a thing for syphilitic women wearing petticoats, garders and corsets?
Does this mean he has a thing for syphilitic women wearing petticoats, garders and corsets?
9
...eventually drifted back into doing this from time to time—several times a year (at least)
I know! Darn that drift. It's like when somebody drifted into stealing my car. Shucks, was I chagrined. But what can you do? They drifted into it.
I think I've actually done a pretty good job of figuring out my motives, rationales, etc
Bwaha ha ha ha ha ha! These people kill me.
Just drift into getting a divorce already. If your word for making a decision is to "drift" then you're not going to stay married.
10
"No more cheating, JOHN, no more putting your wife at risk. "
Too harsh.
Sensual massage and lap dances are perfectly safe activities that don't put JOHN or his wife at risk, and if he enjoys these things, he should feel free to pursue them, just like the millions of other married men for whom honest monogamishness isn't an option.
As for the cheating aspect, ultimately, that's between JOHN and his wife. Permission isn't really ours to give.
Too harsh.
Sensual massage and lap dances are perfectly safe activities that don't put JOHN or his wife at risk, and if he enjoys these things, he should feel free to pursue them, just like the millions of other married men for whom honest monogamishness isn't an option.
As for the cheating aspect, ultimately, that's between JOHN and his wife. Permission isn't really ours to give.
11
@3, you are missing the point. A condom can't protect from herpes and HPV (warts). The only way to "take the disease prevention angle seriously" is to not visit sex workers when your wife doesn't know about it. Believe me, I'm pro-sex worker, but people need to understand and accept the risks.
13
@2 not me! he buttered me up with the "GGG wife jackpot" term. Maybe now I don't need to improve my rimming skills :-)
@6 and herpes; don't forget herpes.
Actually, I think he should 'fess up to one and exactly one visit to an escort. A recent one, so he can talk about how he realized immediately that this isn't what he wants from life; he wants to recommit to her. (Confessing when you haven't been caught just warms the wife's heart and is more likely to get her to listen to you seriously.) And they should both go get tested. And he wants to go see a therapist, to figure out what got him to that point.
And then he should write back in a few months, to tell us about his wife's fantasies!
@6 and herpes; don't forget herpes.
Actually, I think he should 'fess up to one and exactly one visit to an escort. A recent one, so he can talk about how he realized immediately that this isn't what he wants from life; he wants to recommit to her. (Confessing when you haven't been caught just warms the wife's heart and is more likely to get her to listen to you seriously.) And they should both go get tested. And he wants to go see a therapist, to figure out what got him to that point.
And then he should write back in a few months, to tell us about his wife's fantasies!
16
@ Dan, spot-on advice.
@ 10, I don't think "permission" is being asked. Advice to overcome the desire to do the things you are encouraging - THAT is what is being asked.
@ 10, I don't think "permission" is being asked. Advice to overcome the desire to do the things you are encouraging - THAT is what is being asked.
17
@13: Maybe now I don't need to improve my rimming skills
Hot damn. You are the very definition of "GGG wife jackpot".
Hot damn. You are the very definition of "GGG wife jackpot".
20
What struck me was the word “unfulfilling„ and therefore I think this really is a fetish and the "knock it off" won't work. You have four choices: 1) keep cheating on your wife which is wrong 2) somehow get your wife to agree that you can occasionally visit a hocker (which I can't see happening without coming clean about the past and thereby ending the relationship) 3) get therapy 4) end the relationship.
21
STI points lost - Men don't get tested for HPV. HPV can give a woman cancer. He didn't tell his wife to regularly get tested for possible exposure to HPV so that she can catch any cancers early...
You have put her life at risk continually throughout the marriage. I recommend that your wife DTMFA.
You have put her life at risk continually throughout the marriage. I recommend that your wife DTMFA.
23
But realistically - #13 has the best advice!! At least she can start making sure she tests regularly!!
25
JOHN,
Find out if you can get your therapy covered by your health insurance. If it is covered, or not, go. If it becomes an issue, tell her the truth: you have some "issues" to work out, and you aren't ready to talk about it. Remember that if it feels like you aren't getting your needs met, there may be other possibilities available (but when you are limited to the insurance pool, the numbers may be too).
Don't forget to work on your relationship as well. Go have fun together. Socialize together. Plan your next vacation, etc. Make things better.
Peace.
Find out if you can get your therapy covered by your health insurance. If it is covered, or not, go. If it becomes an issue, tell her the truth: you have some "issues" to work out, and you aren't ready to talk about it. Remember that if it feels like you aren't getting your needs met, there may be other possibilities available (but when you are limited to the insurance pool, the numbers may be too).
Don't forget to work on your relationship as well. Go have fun together. Socialize together. Plan your next vacation, etc. Make things better.
Peace.
26
Why does he have to hide therapy from his wife? Isn't it all part of being more open and less secretive? This doesn't oblige him to tell his wife everything that he tells his therapist, of course. But come on, I think if he's going to keep her in the dark about something like this, he at least owes it to her to make a good faith effort (ie with a therapist who will hear him and challenge him) to become more self-aware. As an aside, nothing in his letter convinces me that he understands his own motives.
28
I have in principle nothing against him never telling his wife anything (as long as he's sincere about, as Dan put it, becoming the man his wife mistook him for). If that is what is really going on, I'd say follow Dan's advice, become more GGG, make your relationship be as sincere as it should be, and go on.
But I'm afraid that it's not the case. I'm afraid the LW may be a little more addicted to his sex-for-money on the side than he thinks. I'm afraid he's telling himself he can knock it off and develop his relationship with his wife just so as not to feel bad, while waiting for the next 'moment of weakness.'
If the latter (which, alas! is, I think, more likely), then I think he should confess to his wife. She might help him, she might leave him, whatever; but if this is going to go on happening, the chances that she'll eventually find out increase. Better now than later.
But I'm afraid that it's not the case. I'm afraid the LW may be a little more addicted to his sex-for-money on the side than he thinks. I'm afraid he's telling himself he can knock it off and develop his relationship with his wife just so as not to feel bad, while waiting for the next 'moment of weakness.'
If the latter (which, alas! is, I think, more likely), then I think he should confess to his wife. She might help him, she might leave him, whatever; but if this is going to go on happening, the chances that she'll eventually find out increase. Better now than later.
29
No telling is a hefty burden when it's the thing that founds your desire to knock off the playing around. But it works. I had it different. My guy didn't want me to talk about it. Prick. Totally destroyed the fun of it all so much I quit playing. Ah, but my fantasy life!!! There's this hot male nurse, see, and....
31
Ugh. I hate being a straight woman. The more of Dan's columns I read, the better I understand the appeal of clitoridectomy. And the longer I go without a relationship, the less I want to break the seal and start a new one. It all sounds like such fucking *work*, knocking yourself out to look good and stoke some guy's fantasies, all for the privilege of learning that he's been paying for sex. Count me the fuck out.
32
The problem with this situation is that it has already escalated to the point of having no good solution.
Bad option #1: JOHN keeps the secret, his wife stays blissfully ignorant, though somehow I don't think JOHN is likely to stop being a CPOS of his own accord. His "I don't need a shrink, I've got it all figured out" comment indicates a bit of arrogance on his part. Might he not decide sooner rather than later that not only does he have himself all figured out, but he can probably keep getting away with it too?
Bad option #2: JOHN admits everything to his wife, which will probably end the relationship. This option leaves her heartbroken, but maybe that's actually the best option for both of them. She can divorce him and find a nice non-CPOS to marry, and he can find someone who might sign off on his extracurricular activities before he can become a CPOS.
Bad option #1: JOHN keeps the secret, his wife stays blissfully ignorant, though somehow I don't think JOHN is likely to stop being a CPOS of his own accord. His "I don't need a shrink, I've got it all figured out" comment indicates a bit of arrogance on his part. Might he not decide sooner rather than later that not only does he have himself all figured out, but he can probably keep getting away with it too?
Bad option #2: JOHN admits everything to his wife, which will probably end the relationship. This option leaves her heartbroken, but maybe that's actually the best option for both of them. She can divorce him and find a nice non-CPOS to marry, and he can find someone who might sign off on his extracurricular activities before he can become a CPOS.
33
Can anyone explain to me why it's okay for him to just keep quiet about the massive deception and betrayal he has continually engaged in over the years? I don't get it. His wife deserves to know the truth about what her husband is: a multi-CPOS who puts her at risk for STIs. I get that sometimes the truth is hurtful, but I think that's quite patronizing: it's going to hurt the poor wife, so she should live in the dark about the shithead she's married to.
This is a serious violation of his wife's trust and the commitment he made to her, yet most of you think it's okay if he just starts "being that guy she thinks he is now," which, realistically probably isn't going to happen even if he starts seeing a counselor. Riddle me this: You think this is the first time he's "finally decided to stop this behavior?"
This is a serious violation of his wife's trust and the commitment he made to her, yet most of you think it's okay if he just starts "being that guy she thinks he is now," which, realistically probably isn't going to happen even if he starts seeing a counselor. Riddle me this: You think this is the first time he's "finally decided to stop this behavior?"
34
@32 Option 2 isn't so awful: a lot of marriages survive the guy confessing that he went to see an escort. It's a lot easier for a marriage to survive that than a serious love affair.
35
@ 32: Well said. Let her make the decision. Maybe we're all (including the LW) wrong in assuming she doesn't know. Maybe she's had a hunch all along yet chose to let sleeping dogs lie, or maybe she'll decide she's okay with having this arrangement with the sex workers. Maybe she'll divorce his ass. Either way, I believe she, as half of this marriage, should know wtf is going on.
37
#33: He shouldn't tell, not because it saves him the grief (if anything it would probably be a relief to get the secret off his chest) but because knowing is not likely to do his wife any good. I agree with you that Dan's being way too optimistic about his chances of turning his behavior around, but this reply makes much better reading than, "You irredeemable scumbag. Die in a fire. The End."
39
So... ignorance is bliss?
I'm not sold. Hiding the truth from her is condescending *to her*. It denies her the ability to assess her own relationship and her own life from an honest vantage point and make a decision about where to go from there. We deserve to know things that could potentially effect us and exactly what kinds of intimate relationships we are involved in. Life hurts. The truth sometimes sucks, but jeez, who doesn't want the truth?
I'm not sold. Hiding the truth from her is condescending *to her*. It denies her the ability to assess her own relationship and her own life from an honest vantage point and make a decision about where to go from there. We deserve to know things that could potentially effect us and exactly what kinds of intimate relationships we are involved in. Life hurts. The truth sometimes sucks, but jeez, who doesn't want the truth?
40
@37, I see no evidence that this fellow feels any weight on his chest regarding this issue. He's not telling because he doesn't want the consequences of his actions.
41
@33 I agree. The wife has a right to make decisions about her life and the truth of it that she is living. She has agency. He should not get to decide for her what is and is not tolerable. Plus, they have only been married for 5 years and there is no mention of kids or other extenuating circumstances that would support the "sleeping dogs" approach. She should know that her husband has been seeking out sex workers for years without her knowledge or consent, and likely exposing her to STIs. And then she can do the cost-benefit analysis to determine whether she is better off staying in the marriage or being out of it.
42
@41, thanks. I really doubt it's too late for her to turn that shitshow around and head for greener pastures, in whatever way she chooses.
43
@mtnlion:
If you fail to create an environment in which honesty and truth can thrive, then you are entitled to neither.
As a teenager, I could tell my parents pretty much anything without them punishing me. Consequently, I was probably the most honest 17 year-old male on the planet. In contrast, my friends with punitive, authoritarian parents lied to them at every opportunity.
With respect to extra-marital sex, the only way to create an environment of honesty is to open up the marriage, or at least make it clear to your partner that getting some on the side isn't a capital offense.
We don't know if JOHN's wife is open-minded in this regard or not, but if she's like most people, she would severely punish the truth if she saw it. So, the truth keeps its distance from her.
If you fail to create an environment in which honesty and truth can thrive, then you are entitled to neither.
As a teenager, I could tell my parents pretty much anything without them punishing me. Consequently, I was probably the most honest 17 year-old male on the planet. In contrast, my friends with punitive, authoritarian parents lied to them at every opportunity.
With respect to extra-marital sex, the only way to create an environment of honesty is to open up the marriage, or at least make it clear to your partner that getting some on the side isn't a capital offense.
We don't know if JOHN's wife is open-minded in this regard or not, but if she's like most people, she would severely punish the truth if she saw it. So, the truth keeps its distance from her.
44
An interesting dilemma...consider this: the guy she loved and married was John-the-letter-writer , the sex-worker customer, the liar, the less-than-honest guy.
Will she love the new, honest John? Will she be happy with him? Maybe he's changing into something better, maybe not, but if he tells the whole truth, the relationship is going to blow up, for sure.
They both have been living a lie, one knowingly , the other unknowingly. I hope he writes a follow-up after he breaks the news.
Will she love the new, honest John? Will she be happy with him? Maybe he's changing into something better, maybe not, but if he tells the whole truth, the relationship is going to blow up, for sure.
They both have been living a lie, one knowingly , the other unknowingly. I hope he writes a follow-up after he breaks the news.
45
JOHN: You are in more trouble than you know. This - "I think I liked the adventure of it, the ritual of finding someone, finding a place, getting there, etc." - is the description of addiction.
"I think I've actually done a pretty good job of figuring out my motives, rationales, etc". Like all addicts, your "figuring out" is empty because you don't know what you don't know, and you can't see what you won't see. Finally, you "drifted" because you have an inability to stop, and it will only get worse.
At the very least, you need to see a therapist, stat. Use any of the explanations to your wife provided by previous posters. The therapist can serve two purposes. First to untangle the knot of your sexuality and the roots of your compulsion. Second, in case the need/desire to disclose arises, it needs to be done in a therapeutic setting that is safe for your wife and you.
Lastly, I cannot believe that in 44 posts no one has pointed out the most obvious error in your post. "Nymphos" are female. Sexually insatiable men are known as satyrs.
"I think I've actually done a pretty good job of figuring out my motives, rationales, etc". Like all addicts, your "figuring out" is empty because you don't know what you don't know, and you can't see what you won't see. Finally, you "drifted" because you have an inability to stop, and it will only get worse.
At the very least, you need to see a therapist, stat. Use any of the explanations to your wife provided by previous posters. The therapist can serve two purposes. First to untangle the knot of your sexuality and the roots of your compulsion. Second, in case the need/desire to disclose arises, it needs to be done in a therapeutic setting that is safe for your wife and you.
Lastly, I cannot believe that in 44 posts no one has pointed out the most obvious error in your post. "Nymphos" are female. Sexually insatiable men are known as satyrs.
46
I agree with everyone on the side of JOHN telling his wife what's been up. His behavior has been exceptionally reckless. If it were just massage parlors or strip clubs he was visiting for the occasional handjob, I'd feel differently. If he were visiting sex workers in order to fulfill a kink he was embarrassed about, or a kink his wife couldn't/wouldn't fulfill, I'd feel differently. But this is something else entirely. JOHN is showing contempt for his wife - for her feelings, for her health and for the kind of marriage *she* wants to have. All of that falls by the wayside because of JOHN's massive entitlement issues. Of course *he* can't see any benefit to telling his wife - he's not the one married to a CPOS!! I suspect, however, that his wife feels quite differently about CPOSes and the benefits and drawbacks of being married to one.
I also suspect that JOHN will not be able to stop seeing sex workers, and he will use Dan's advice as justification for continuing to not tell his wife.
I also suspect that JOHN will not be able to stop seeing sex workers, and he will use Dan's advice as justification for continuing to not tell his wife.
47
I haven't seen a therapist as a) I think I've actually done a pretty good job of figuring out my motives, rationales, etc, and b) I'm not sure I could pay for one without my wife finding out.
I'm puzzled. So what if his wife finds out he's seeing a therapist. Can't someone see a therapist without having to tell their spouse exactly why they're seeing one?
I'm puzzled. So what if his wife finds out he's seeing a therapist. Can't someone see a therapist without having to tell their spouse exactly why they're seeing one?
48
@43 (seandr) wrote: "With respect to extra-marital sex, the only way to create an environment of honesty is to open up the marriage, or at least make it clear to your partner that getting some on the side isn't a capital offense. "
And used the example of yourself as a teenager being able to tell your parents ANYthing b/c you were never punished for what you were told.
Um, really?? So 'truth' at all costs is a higher value than are, say, honour, committment, and respect (to name a few)? So long as I told THE TRUTH about anything I've done, then no matter what I've done is not bad or deserving of scorn?
This seems a very catholic view of truth: 'confession' absolves you of eternal damnation. Phht.
And used the example of yourself as a teenager being able to tell your parents ANYthing b/c you were never punished for what you were told.
Um, really?? So 'truth' at all costs is a higher value than are, say, honour, committment, and respect (to name a few)? So long as I told THE TRUTH about anything I've done, then no matter what I've done is not bad or deserving of scorn?
This seems a very catholic view of truth: 'confession' absolves you of eternal damnation. Phht.
49
Yeah, he doesn't want to see a therapist because he doesn't, at bottom, really want to fix the problem. He doesn't even want to really admit that it is a problem. I agree with others that there's addictive stuff going on here - I dunno if he's a sex addict, or a "I have a secret" addict, but there's definitely a compulsive aspect to what he's up to. Generally, addicts are experts at pretending something different is happening than what is really happening.
50
@43, Do you believe the wife has failed to foster an environment which is amicable to truth and honesty? Because she entered into a marriage with the expectation of monogamy and loyalty, and JOHN misrepresented himself? If anyone is guilty of creating an environment that is hostile to honesty, it's JOHN. He could have been forthcoming to her years ago, when he first knew he wasn't interested in monogamy. At the point he chose not to disclose this about himself, he forfeited the opportunity for an environment open to honesty. This is not an anti-honesty environment because she is unreasonable, and although cheating isn't a capital offense, it really doesn't sound like this is what she thought she was getting herself into. It is not her responsibility now to be flexible and open up the marriage or see things from his perspective if that's not how she feels. It's too late for that.
She would likely punish the truth severely because the truth is pretty damn hurtful. That's how it is. Simply being honest isn't enough, either. You have to be honest and also be willing to accept the consequences of it. If you murder someone and confess, nobody lets you off the hook.
She would likely punish the truth severely because the truth is pretty damn hurtful. That's how it is. Simply being honest isn't enough, either. You have to be honest and also be willing to accept the consequences of it. If you murder someone and confess, nobody lets you off the hook.
51
Ok, I have a problem with not telling her. A big problem. This is not just one slip-up - an aberration. This is repeated and calculated cheating and dishonesty. And the bullshit about not seeing a therapist for the reasons he gave indicates he is still deep into his self-absorbed rationalizing. He simply is not who she thought he was. Now, you could argue that none of us are who our significant others think we are, but this is a pretty big disparity between his character and her personal portrait of him. She should have the option of making the choice to leave the marriage. Because you know what? He's not going to stop.
52
John's entire letter can be summed up in one sentence- "how can I avoid dealing with my problems?" He's making excuses for why he can't go to therapy and he seems to want permission to avoid being honest with his wife. He's not going to get any better until he comes clean and is open about who he really is. The truth hurts and sometimes ends marriages, but that's life. Also, I don't think he's sparing the wife unnecessary pain by staying quiet- what he's really doing is taking away her ability to make choices, b/c she doesn't know who she's really married to.
53
Maybe he should start paying his wife for sex. Maybe that's his "kink", money in exchange for sex. If he left $100 on the side table, then his wife gets to go shopping and he gets what he wants.
54
There seem to be several different issues here.
One is whether he or any spouse should confess to infidelity if it hasn't been discovered and he's (ostensibly) about to change his ways. You all have covered that pretty extensively, so I'm not going to address it.
A second is whether this is addictive behavior that he even wants to stop or can stop, with or without the help of a therapist. Self-awareness of a compulsion doesn't of itself stop the compulsion. The pattern that JOHN describes sounds pretty well-established, and compulsive, and I would think he'd need, at the very least, help from a therapist in stopping it. I don't see why he has to hide therapy from his wife; it could be therapy about any issue at all. Therapy is a private activity and his insurance may cover at least part of it.
The third issue and one that's not been addressed as much here, is that JOHN says he knows he wants to incorporate some of the kinks satisfied by sex workers, but has no way to account for how he even knows that he likes such things. This can either tie into the second issue or be kept separate.
Dan has interpreted the interest that's being fulfilled by the professionals as the pick-up, but that may not be the original and ongoing point of the service he's paying for. JOHN may well have gotten addicted to the logistics and the set-up, the planning, finding, meeting; the hotel or motel room, the secrecy, but it doesn't sound as though those are the things that drew him to escorts in the first place, nor the specific act(s) he wishes his wife would provide. It would be relatively easy to say, "honey, I think it would be so sexy to pretend that we didn't know each other and for me to pick you up in a hotel bar and then go up to 'my' room. Can we play that on Saturday night?"
He wouldn't need to account for where he'd 'learned' that he liked activity A or position B. It sounds like he's afraid that if he mentions something that falls way outside the realm of their existing sex life, he would be at a loss to account for how he knows he'd like that, or that he knows how to do it or how it's done. There are two possible solutions to this.
1) He can lie about how he knows he's into whatever it is. He can say it is a fantasy he's long had and he never had the nerve to talk about it before; he can say it's something he's heard/read about or seen in porn (assuming that the admission that he talks/reads about sex or watches porn won't send her through the roof), and would like to try. He can even say that it is something he tried once, a long time ago, with someone before he knew his wife, liked it, and would like to incorporate it into their married sex life (this won't work if they are high school sweethearts with no previous sexual experience).
2) He could tell the truth, or at least a variation of it. I think that if it was couched in terms of wanting a specific sexual act that he didn't think his wife would agree to or approve of, that it happened only once or maybe twice, that the extra-marital sex wasn't an affair, or with a woman he has/had feelings for, he might find that his wife's reaction (after the initial anger and hurt) would be different than if he confessed to a full-on affair.
If he said, "honey, I like this act, and I want to share it with *you.* I was afraid you'd never do it or let me do it, but I don't want to have sex with anyone else." He might have a shot. And, not that it's the wife's responsibility to keep him from practicing his compulsive behavior, because it emphatically isn't (nor is it her "fault" he saw sex workers in the first place), if he is getting whatever need he had that drove him to sex workers in the first place met by his wife, he might be able to stop the compulsive behavior of seeking out assignations.
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One is whether he or any spouse should confess to infidelity if it hasn't been discovered and he's (ostensibly) about to change his ways. You all have covered that pretty extensively, so I'm not going to address it.
A second is whether this is addictive behavior that he even wants to stop or can stop, with or without the help of a therapist. Self-awareness of a compulsion doesn't of itself stop the compulsion. The pattern that JOHN describes sounds pretty well-established, and compulsive, and I would think he'd need, at the very least, help from a therapist in stopping it. I don't see why he has to hide therapy from his wife; it could be therapy about any issue at all. Therapy is a private activity and his insurance may cover at least part of it.
The third issue and one that's not been addressed as much here, is that JOHN says he knows he wants to incorporate some of the kinks satisfied by sex workers, but has no way to account for how he even knows that he likes such things. This can either tie into the second issue or be kept separate.
Dan has interpreted the interest that's being fulfilled by the professionals as the pick-up, but that may not be the original and ongoing point of the service he's paying for. JOHN may well have gotten addicted to the logistics and the set-up, the planning, finding, meeting; the hotel or motel room, the secrecy, but it doesn't sound as though those are the things that drew him to escorts in the first place, nor the specific act(s) he wishes his wife would provide. It would be relatively easy to say, "honey, I think it would be so sexy to pretend that we didn't know each other and for me to pick you up in a hotel bar and then go up to 'my' room. Can we play that on Saturday night?"
He wouldn't need to account for where he'd 'learned' that he liked activity A or position B. It sounds like he's afraid that if he mentions something that falls way outside the realm of their existing sex life, he would be at a loss to account for how he knows he'd like that, or that he knows how to do it or how it's done. There are two possible solutions to this.
1) He can lie about how he knows he's into whatever it is. He can say it is a fantasy he's long had and he never had the nerve to talk about it before; he can say it's something he's heard/read about or seen in porn (assuming that the admission that he talks/reads about sex or watches porn won't send her through the roof), and would like to try. He can even say that it is something he tried once, a long time ago, with someone before he knew his wife, liked it, and would like to incorporate it into their married sex life (this won't work if they are high school sweethearts with no previous sexual experience).
2) He could tell the truth, or at least a variation of it. I think that if it was couched in terms of wanting a specific sexual act that he didn't think his wife would agree to or approve of, that it happened only once or maybe twice, that the extra-marital sex wasn't an affair, or with a woman he has/had feelings for, he might find that his wife's reaction (after the initial anger and hurt) would be different than if he confessed to a full-on affair.
If he said, "honey, I like this act, and I want to share it with *you.* I was afraid you'd never do it or let me do it, but I don't want to have sex with anyone else." He might have a shot. And, not that it's the wife's responsibility to keep him from practicing his compulsive behavior, because it emphatically isn't (nor is it her "fault" he saw sex workers in the first place), if he is getting whatever need he had that drove him to sex workers in the first place met by his wife, he might be able to stop the compulsive behavior of seeking out assignations.
55
A couple points:
1. He should see if he can actually stop. If he can, with or without a counselor's help, telling probably won't do any good because it's all in the past. If not, then it makes sense to tell her because it's still a current problem, not a problem in the past. We don't know yet whether it's really compulsive behavior or not.
2. He could test the waters by saying he went to the strip club or got a lap dance. He could even start off by saying he got a (legit) massage, just to see how she reacts. If she totally flips out at something small, he clearly shouldn't tell her the bigger thing.
@Erica: You are definitely the GGG jackpot.
1. He should see if he can actually stop. If he can, with or without a counselor's help, telling probably won't do any good because it's all in the past. If not, then it makes sense to tell her because it's still a current problem, not a problem in the past. We don't know yet whether it's really compulsive behavior or not.
2. He could test the waters by saying he went to the strip club or got a lap dance. He could even start off by saying he got a (legit) massage, just to see how she reacts. If she totally flips out at something small, he clearly shouldn't tell her the bigger thing.
@Erica: You are definitely the GGG jackpot.
56
@54 very well laid out and good advice.
@55 thank you! I think your #1 is harder in practice than it sounds. I've known people with compulsions, and have seen them "purge" their fetish, or swear they're going to stop. It feels real, the desire to stop feels so real. But a year or two later, they have started again. But during that year, they honestly believe they've kicked the habit.
As mtnlion said @33, >>You think this is the first time he's "finally decided to stop this behavior?">>
@55 thank you! I think your #1 is harder in practice than it sounds. I've known people with compulsions, and have seen them "purge" their fetish, or swear they're going to stop. It feels real, the desire to stop feels so real. But a year or two later, they have started again. But during that year, they honestly believe they've kicked the habit.
As mtnlion said @33, >>You think this is the first time he's "finally decided to stop this behavior?">>
57
@56: Right, if it's really a compulsion, then it won't be easy to stop. But maybe it's just something he did a bit and doesn't feel the need to do again.
58
@50: "Do you believe the wife has failed to foster an environment which is amicable to truth and honesty?"
I believe anyone who insists on absolute monogamy has created an environment that is potentially hostile to the truth. Research shows that half of us admit to having cheated on a partner at some point, and a quarter of us admit to cheating on our current partners. You and others here might see this as evidence that people are pieces of shit. I see it as evidence that the expectation of monogamy simply doesn't fit millions and millions of human beings, despite our attempts to brainwash and punish them into that box.
She would likely punish the truth severely because the truth is pretty damn hurtful.
It's only hurtful if one chooses to see it that way, just like eating ham is hurtful only if you choose to believe in kosher laws. I think anyone who leaves a loving partner simply because they had sex with someone else is as foolish as someone who leaves their partner simply because they ate a ham sandwich.
This isn't to say you can't have monogamy. You can, and in a relationship where both partners have freely chosen monogamy rather than having been coerced into it, that commitment would actually mean something.
I believe anyone who insists on absolute monogamy has created an environment that is potentially hostile to the truth. Research shows that half of us admit to having cheated on a partner at some point, and a quarter of us admit to cheating on our current partners. You and others here might see this as evidence that people are pieces of shit. I see it as evidence that the expectation of monogamy simply doesn't fit millions and millions of human beings, despite our attempts to brainwash and punish them into that box.
She would likely punish the truth severely because the truth is pretty damn hurtful.
It's only hurtful if one chooses to see it that way, just like eating ham is hurtful only if you choose to believe in kosher laws. I think anyone who leaves a loving partner simply because they had sex with someone else is as foolish as someone who leaves their partner simply because they ate a ham sandwich.
This isn't to say you can't have monogamy. You can, and in a relationship where both partners have freely chosen monogamy rather than having been coerced into it, that commitment would actually mean something.
59
@48: I'm not sure how you jumped from what I've said to any of those conclusions.
All of us are free to place whatever value we want on honesty, truth, honor, commitment, etc. All I'm saying is that if you want the truth, you need to give people the freedom to tell it to you. If you are excessively coercive, they will tell you what you want to hear.
All of us are free to place whatever value we want on honesty, truth, honor, commitment, etc. All I'm saying is that if you want the truth, you need to give people the freedom to tell it to you. If you are excessively coercive, they will tell you what you want to hear.
60
There's a huge fucking difference between a ham sandwich and a lie that puts someone else at risk and betrays previously made promises (if he's married, it's entirely likely that his wedding vows included a 'cleave unto your wife and no other' clause).
We also don't know that monogamy was 'coerced.' How can monogamy even *be* coerced, anyway? Couldn't someone whose partner insisted on monogamy just leave? Maybe it's just me but 'Monogamy or GTFO!' doesn't sound very coercive, unless you're operating from the assumption that everyone HAS to be in a relationship or that JOHN's wife has somehow blackmailed him into being married to her (and if she had, I suspect JOHN would have mentioned that in his letter). It doesn't even sound like this couple made that choice conciously, they both just rather assumed that monogamy is the standard in a committed hetero relationship and went from there. We don't even know that the wife would have a problem with an open marriage - all we *do* know is that she has not been given the chance to make that choice for herself.
Yeah, the guy's wife might leave him if he tells her. That's how the world works. Actions have consequences, and if you lie to your wife for years, she'll take that as a sign of what she really means to you and decide she's better off either alone or with someone who won't lie to her. You don't just get to take what you want from people without stopping to think about what they might want or how your choices affect those you claim to care about. This wasn't a single indiscretion or a six-month fling with a stripper - this is an extensively planned, ongoing pattern of deceiving and betraying his wife.
We also don't know that monogamy was 'coerced.' How can monogamy even *be* coerced, anyway? Couldn't someone whose partner insisted on monogamy just leave? Maybe it's just me but 'Monogamy or GTFO!' doesn't sound very coercive, unless you're operating from the assumption that everyone HAS to be in a relationship or that JOHN's wife has somehow blackmailed him into being married to her (and if she had, I suspect JOHN would have mentioned that in his letter). It doesn't even sound like this couple made that choice conciously, they both just rather assumed that monogamy is the standard in a committed hetero relationship and went from there. We don't even know that the wife would have a problem with an open marriage - all we *do* know is that she has not been given the chance to make that choice for herself.
Yeah, the guy's wife might leave him if he tells her. That's how the world works. Actions have consequences, and if you lie to your wife for years, she'll take that as a sign of what she really means to you and decide she's better off either alone or with someone who won't lie to her. You don't just get to take what you want from people without stopping to think about what they might want or how your choices affect those you claim to care about. This wasn't a single indiscretion or a six-month fling with a stripper - this is an extensively planned, ongoing pattern of deceiving and betraying his wife.
61
Call me old fashioned, but I'd like to know the person I'm married to. And if that knowledge means the end of the marriage, well, that's reality, isn't it? Not living in reality is being crazy, so... Tell all. Live with results.
62
'And from here on out, JOHN, you're going to try to be the man she mistook you for, okay?'
Three reasons why Dan Savage is better than a priest:
1. You can confess to him in real anonymity.
2. He'll give you real advice, not moralistic homilies - and won't tell you to mumble some prayer over a handful of beads - instead, he advises you to change your goddamn life.
3. He won't rape your children.
Three reasons why Dan Savage is better than a priest:
1. You can confess to him in real anonymity.
2. He'll give you real advice, not moralistic homilies - and won't tell you to mumble some prayer over a handful of beads - instead, he advises you to change your goddamn life.
3. He won't rape your children.
63
Dan didn't comment much on the therapist thing, but I can't help it. Get there and start talking. Knowing your motivations a small piece of what you are dealing with here. Further, if you can't tell your wife that you want to see a therapist, is telling her your hooker fantasy likely? Sheesh. Get to the therapist.
64
@seandr: I sometimes agree w/ you about things. This is not one of those times. It sounds to me like you're shifting the blame of JOHN's actions to JOHN's *wife*. They agreed to a monogamous relationship - I assume since JOHN was sneaking around - & it is reasonable, not coercive, to expect that agreement to be honored.
Should more people feel free to discuss what they really want & need with their partners? Yes, yes, yes. & why people don't is (I'm sure) one of the top reasons people break up / get divorced. But JOHN doesn't say he asked his wife for an open marriage or told her he'd been seeing sex workers. He lied to her, & cheated on her, & put her health at risk, for years. That's not her coercing him into anything but rather him making a whole slew of decisions that affect her deeply, without consulting her. If there's any coercion goin' on, it's the other way around. & he starts by saying he feels that the relationship is generally good, including sexually. So it doesn't even meet the standards Dan usually sets for it being understandable, when someone cheats.
JOHN: you've essentially asked Dan for permission to keep this huge secret from your wife & Dan granted it. I couldn't disagree more. Yeah, the relationship might suffer if you 'fess up to your wife. Tough. You need to tell her. If you couch it in the right terms: it was just sex, you're incredibly sorry, etc, you might wind up with things being stronger between you than before. But as of right now you've created a massive imbalance between you & your spouse. If it had been a one-time thing, maybe it'd be different, but you've done this sneaking/lying for most of your relationship. Not only have you put her at risk of all kindsa diseases - some of which I bet you haven't been tested for & not all of which can be prevented w/ condom use - but you have this huge secret she doesn't know. You'll have gotten away w/ something massive.
We all have secrets & should be allowed private space within a relationship. Anything else is unhealthy. But when our secrets mask compulsive behavior that harm ourselves and especially our partners, you & she will both be better off in the long run if you are honest. Yeah, even if it means the end of things. How would you feel if the situation was reversed?
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Should more people feel free to discuss what they really want & need with their partners? Yes, yes, yes. & why people don't is (I'm sure) one of the top reasons people break up / get divorced. But JOHN doesn't say he asked his wife for an open marriage or told her he'd been seeing sex workers. He lied to her, & cheated on her, & put her health at risk, for years. That's not her coercing him into anything but rather him making a whole slew of decisions that affect her deeply, without consulting her. If there's any coercion goin' on, it's the other way around. & he starts by saying he feels that the relationship is generally good, including sexually. So it doesn't even meet the standards Dan usually sets for it being understandable, when someone cheats.
JOHN: you've essentially asked Dan for permission to keep this huge secret from your wife & Dan granted it. I couldn't disagree more. Yeah, the relationship might suffer if you 'fess up to your wife. Tough. You need to tell her. If you couch it in the right terms: it was just sex, you're incredibly sorry, etc, you might wind up with things being stronger between you than before. But as of right now you've created a massive imbalance between you & your spouse. If it had been a one-time thing, maybe it'd be different, but you've done this sneaking/lying for most of your relationship. Not only have you put her at risk of all kindsa diseases - some of which I bet you haven't been tested for & not all of which can be prevented w/ condom use - but you have this huge secret she doesn't know. You'll have gotten away w/ something massive.
We all have secrets & should be allowed private space within a relationship. Anything else is unhealthy. But when our secrets mask compulsive behavior that harm ourselves and especially our partners, you & she will both be better off in the long run if you are honest. Yeah, even if it means the end of things. How would you feel if the situation was reversed?
65
Also, lap dances ≠ sex. Strippers, fine; lap dances, fine (though I'm the kinda GF who'd be handing you singles or wanting to come along). But JOHN was having sex. One doesn't get tested after lap dances. If you're in a situation where you wanna be honest & non-monogamish but can't, shouldn't you change your situation, not expect our partner to forgive you when you cheat?
I agree with the idea that JOHN can be the man he's pretended to be. But first he's gotta stop pretending. That's just my opinion.
I think in most cases when someone cheats, it's not the extramarital sex that does the couple in. It's the lying & being made to feel a fool of that most can't recover from.
I agree with the idea that JOHN can be the man he's pretended to be. But first he's gotta stop pretending. That's just my opinion.
I think in most cases when someone cheats, it's not the extramarital sex that does the couple in. It's the lying & being made to feel a fool of that most can't recover from.
66
@ seandr, no one was coerced in this relationship. If JOHN said, long ago, "hey honey, what would you think about me maybe hiring a call girl one day or otherwise paying for sex? I think I'd like a little something on the side. I promise to be safe," and the wife lashed out at the mere suggestion and refused to budge or discuss it further (but didn't want to end the relationship), I might be inclined to say she could expect to be lied to.
She is not *insisting* on monogamy, but it is a decision they made together. Much like I don't insist on my man treating me with respect and he has to grudgingly comply--it's something we give to one another; those are the conditions of our relationship.
Also, nobody "chooses" to be hurt. If that were the case, why would any of us choose to be hurt about anything? And while I'm not religious and I think it's kind of silly to get hurt if there's a little bacon in the salad, I don't just lie to any Jewish/Muslim/vegetarian guests that I have over. It's something they care about, and I care about them. Some things are objectively hurtful, such as being stabbed in the back by someone you trusted to honor a serious commitment they made to you. Just because *you* think that it's stupid for her to leave him over this doesn't mean it really is. It means that your ideal relationship is different than hers, and that's fine too, but don't try to say she's the fool in all this because that is plainly false.
I know that absolute monogamy is tough. And for the record, I don't think it makes people pieces of shit to want to be non-monogamous or even to cheat on someone. We all make mistakes. It's to continue to lie and put her feelings and health in jeopardy--someone he loves--that makes this guy seriously flawed.
I know monogamy doesn't work for a lot of people, but when you agree to it, the only moral and decent thing to do is to stick to it unless some parameters change about your marriage or if it ends altogether. I think that's pretty simple.
And to agree with everyone else: get into therapy JOHN, stat!
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She is not *insisting* on monogamy, but it is a decision they made together. Much like I don't insist on my man treating me with respect and he has to grudgingly comply--it's something we give to one another; those are the conditions of our relationship.
Also, nobody "chooses" to be hurt. If that were the case, why would any of us choose to be hurt about anything? And while I'm not religious and I think it's kind of silly to get hurt if there's a little bacon in the salad, I don't just lie to any Jewish/Muslim/vegetarian guests that I have over. It's something they care about, and I care about them. Some things are objectively hurtful, such as being stabbed in the back by someone you trusted to honor a serious commitment they made to you. Just because *you* think that it's stupid for her to leave him over this doesn't mean it really is. It means that your ideal relationship is different than hers, and that's fine too, but don't try to say she's the fool in all this because that is plainly false.
I know that absolute monogamy is tough. And for the record, I don't think it makes people pieces of shit to want to be non-monogamous or even to cheat on someone. We all make mistakes. It's to continue to lie and put her feelings and health in jeopardy--someone he loves--that makes this guy seriously flawed.
I know monogamy doesn't work for a lot of people, but when you agree to it, the only moral and decent thing to do is to stick to it unless some parameters change about your marriage or if it ends altogether. I think that's pretty simple.
And to agree with everyone else: get into therapy JOHN, stat!
67
@60: Orthodox Jews take kosher just as seriously as you take monogamy, and to those who don't believe either dogma, the rules seem equally arbitrary.
@64: I'm actually trying to remove blame from the discussion altogether.
Like the rest of us, JOHN's wife has had the "one true love" myth pounded into her head since she was old enough to watch Disney movies. She's also been taught (at least indirectly) that a) sex without a monogamous commitment isn't special, b) a man who sleeps with other women doesn't really love her, c) if she allows her husband to sleep around she's being taken advantage of, d) sex should be subordinate to other things in a healthy relationship, and e) men who focus too much on sex are immature.
These are all lies, of course, and lies beget more lies. Strip away all of this cultural disinformation, and JOHN's situation would never have happened because he'd have nothing to hide.
@64: I'm actually trying to remove blame from the discussion altogether.
Like the rest of us, JOHN's wife has had the "one true love" myth pounded into her head since she was old enough to watch Disney movies. She's also been taught (at least indirectly) that a) sex without a monogamous commitment isn't special, b) a man who sleeps with other women doesn't really love her, c) if she allows her husband to sleep around she's being taken advantage of, d) sex should be subordinate to other things in a healthy relationship, and e) men who focus too much on sex are immature.
These are all lies, of course, and lies beget more lies. Strip away all of this cultural disinformation, and JOHN's situation would never have happened because he'd have nothing to hide.
68
@66: no one was coerced in this relationship.
"Don't do X or I'll leave you" is coercion, whether X is going out with friends, eating ham, having an abortion, or seeking sexual fulfillment.
"Don't do X or I'll leave you" is coercion, whether X is going out with friends, eating ham, having an abortion, or seeking sexual fulfillment.
69
@68 but as far as we know, JOHN's wife hasn't said that. "Don't do X or I'll leave you." All we know is that she has tried to get him to open up about his fantasies.
70
Well, when you write it that way, it sounds like coercion, but realistically we all have a set of dealbreakers in our relationships. For friends, we expect them not to talk too much shit about us or take advantage of us. Do those specifications imply that I am coercing them into be my friends? For loved ones (especially those we married, who specifically vowed to be faithful), we expect them not to lie and cheat on us. It's not coercion, seandr, it's a standard she holds him to; one that he willingly said he'd meet!
The way she was socialized to view sex and love does not invalidate her feelings. Maybe she could take a step back, think about why she feels hurt, try to understand sex from a different perspective, and grow to accept a monogamish relationship. Maybe she could decide that monogamy is still very important to her and leave him. But it should be her choice, ultimately, and to do that, she needs all the facts.
The way she was socialized to view sex and love does not invalidate her feelings. Maybe she could take a step back, think about why she feels hurt, try to understand sex from a different perspective, and grow to accept a monogamish relationship. Maybe she could decide that monogamy is still very important to her and leave him. But it should be her choice, ultimately, and to do that, she needs all the facts.
71
@69, glad you brought that back up. She's even trying to be GGG, and there he is, being an asshole.
72
We actually don't know *any* of that about JOHN's wife. All we have is JOHN's perception of what his wife thinks. And, in fact, his wife has currently been trying to draw out his fantasy life, so there's every indication that she's open-minded and fairly GGG. After all, there are a TON of non-monogamous women out there (some of whom are even married), so apparently, the Disneyfied monogamy indoctrination doesn't always take.
You know what I'm going to assume? I'm going to assume that JOHN's wife thinks that someone who loves you won't tell you enormous lies and break their solemn promises to you. I think that JOHN's wife feels entitled to honesty from her partner - and honesty means not being a fucking swingrich (I can't believe we've gotten to several dozen comments in this thread without that word being used). I think that's a pretty fair assumption to make about most people.
Let's pretend that JOHN had a gambling addiction when he first met his wife, and that part of what JOHN promised her when they married was that he was no longer going to risk their financial future by gambling. And for the first few years, JOHN kept that promise. But now he somehow finds himself at poker tables, and has lost about the same amount of money that one would spend on sex workers 'several times a year.' JOHN is an asshole for breaking his promise, for breaking it multiple times, and for having a fairly cavalier attitude about the potential consequences of what he's done. Whether it's gambling, sex or fucking ham sandwiches, the issue is - he lied. He told some pretty big, egregious lies and he put his wife at risk (minimal risk, to be sure, if he can be believed about using protection - but the risk is still there, and it's not up to him to make that decision for his wife about the acceptable level of risk to expose her to). And I think she has a right to know how she's been treated and how she's been lied to. What happens next is up for both JOHN and his wife to decide, as fully informed equals.
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You know what I'm going to assume? I'm going to assume that JOHN's wife thinks that someone who loves you won't tell you enormous lies and break their solemn promises to you. I think that JOHN's wife feels entitled to honesty from her partner - and honesty means not being a fucking swingrich (I can't believe we've gotten to several dozen comments in this thread without that word being used). I think that's a pretty fair assumption to make about most people.
Let's pretend that JOHN had a gambling addiction when he first met his wife, and that part of what JOHN promised her when they married was that he was no longer going to risk their financial future by gambling. And for the first few years, JOHN kept that promise. But now he somehow finds himself at poker tables, and has lost about the same amount of money that one would spend on sex workers 'several times a year.' JOHN is an asshole for breaking his promise, for breaking it multiple times, and for having a fairly cavalier attitude about the potential consequences of what he's done. Whether it's gambling, sex or fucking ham sandwiches, the issue is - he lied. He told some pretty big, egregious lies and he put his wife at risk (minimal risk, to be sure, if he can be believed about using protection - but the risk is still there, and it's not up to him to make that decision for his wife about the acceptable level of risk to expose her to). And I think she has a right to know how she's been treated and how she's been lied to. What happens next is up for both JOHN and his wife to decide, as fully informed equals.
73
@66: What about "accept my non-mongamy or I'll leave you"? Was Gingrich being coercive when he told his second wife that she could either accept his mistress or divorce him? What about 'don't hit me anymore or I'll leave you"? What about "accept my alcoholism or I'll leave you"? Or "if you don't stop lying to me, I'll leave you"? People have different standards for what they can and can't tolerate in a relationship.
It's perfectly reasonable for one partner to make clear boundaries about what's expected and permitted in a long-term committed relationship, especially regarding sex. It's perfectly reasonable for the other partner to decide if they can or can't live up to that - but if they can't live up to the expectations or want more than is permitted, they need to be honest about that, so that both parties can have the relationship they really want.
No one *made* JOHN start dating his wife. No one held a gun to his head at the altar and forced him to marry her. No one took away his ability to freely choose. No one threatened his life, his safety, his family or his property if he refused to marry. He could have chosen to remain a bachelor and continued to see professionals for the rest of his life, and no one would have *forced* him to date and marry his wife, or any other woman. He wasn't coerced into dating, he wasn't coerced into marriage, and he certainly wasn't coerced into lying to his wife by anything other than his own selfishness.
It's perfectly reasonable for one partner to make clear boundaries about what's expected and permitted in a long-term committed relationship, especially regarding sex. It's perfectly reasonable for the other partner to decide if they can or can't live up to that - but if they can't live up to the expectations or want more than is permitted, they need to be honest about that, so that both parties can have the relationship they really want.
No one *made* JOHN start dating his wife. No one held a gun to his head at the altar and forced him to marry her. No one took away his ability to freely choose. No one threatened his life, his safety, his family or his property if he refused to marry. He could have chosen to remain a bachelor and continued to see professionals for the rest of his life, and no one would have *forced* him to date and marry his wife, or any other woman. He wasn't coerced into dating, he wasn't coerced into marriage, and he certainly wasn't coerced into lying to his wife by anything other than his own selfishness.
74
@72 my understanding is that it's okay to fuck ham sandwiches as long as you do it through a hole in a sheet.
:-)
:-)
75
@72, "JOHN's wife thinks that someone who loves you won't tell you enormous lies"
I used to think that; then I learned otherwise.
I used to think that; then I learned otherwise.
76
"I haven't seen a therapist as a) I think I've actually done a pretty good job of figuring out my motives, rationales, etc"
You need a therapist to go beyond the many layers of bullshit you've built up throughout your life. I doubt you've scratched the surface, or gotten very far in the need for self-honesty.
You need a therapist to go beyond the many layers of bullshit you've built up throughout your life. I doubt you've scratched the surface, or gotten very far in the need for self-honesty.
77
@75: And I think that JOHN's wife deserves the chance to learn that same lesson. Maybe she'll leave him, maybe she'll decide to stay. Maybe she'll believe that her husband can both love her and occasionally see sex workers. Maybe she'll even believe that her husband can love her and lie to her at the same time. And maybe she won't. Either way, the choice is hers to make, not JOHN's.
Also, @67: You're making assumptions about my view of monogamy. I think it works for some people and doesn't work for other people, and that people who want monogamy should marry other monogamous people. I would be all up for non-monogamy in my personal life, but I'm currently not, because my partner puts a higher value on being monogamous than I do on having an open relationship. If I, knowing what my partner expects of me, then decided to fuck around, and I fucked around consistently, my partner would have every reason in the world to be upset with me, because I broke our agreement. And even now, being amenable to the idea of an open or monogamish relationship or as I am, if I did find out that my partner had a side affair going on, I would feel incredibly hurt and betrayed - not because of the sex, but because my partner broke our agreement and lied to me about it. If, however, my partner was up front about wanting non-monogamy - well, that's a peaceable conversation we can have, and hopefully come to an equitable solution. But my partner would have to bring it up *first*, before any hanky-panky started going on.
Also, @67: You're making assumptions about my view of monogamy. I think it works for some people and doesn't work for other people, and that people who want monogamy should marry other monogamous people. I would be all up for non-monogamy in my personal life, but I'm currently not, because my partner puts a higher value on being monogamous than I do on having an open relationship. If I, knowing what my partner expects of me, then decided to fuck around, and I fucked around consistently, my partner would have every reason in the world to be upset with me, because I broke our agreement. And even now, being amenable to the idea of an open or monogamish relationship or as I am, if I did find out that my partner had a side affair going on, I would feel incredibly hurt and betrayed - not because of the sex, but because my partner broke our agreement and lied to me about it. If, however, my partner was up front about wanting non-monogamy - well, that's a peaceable conversation we can have, and hopefully come to an equitable solution. But my partner would have to bring it up *first*, before any hanky-panky started going on.
78
@seandr, but the point is not whether or not his wife is right in her belief in monogamy: the point is whether or not she is guilty for it.
You claim you want to remove blame from the situation, but when I re-read your posts you do seem to be shifting the blame to her.
From my perspective, it doesn't matter whether JOHN's wife is right or wrong in wanting monogamy, whether or not she was conditioned by Disney princesses into wanting that. The point is that is what she wanted, JOHN knew that, from the beginning, and he (presumably) didn't tell her that this wouldn't be good enough for him.
He is wrong not because monogamy is right, but he is wrong because he did not start this relationship with his wife by being honest.
Again: the point is not whether or not monogamy is wrong, but the (apparent) fact that JOHN didn't tell his wife he disagreed with her on monogamy. That's something she'd have a right to know.
You claim you want to remove blame from the situation, but when I re-read your posts you do seem to be shifting the blame to her.
From my perspective, it doesn't matter whether JOHN's wife is right or wrong in wanting monogamy, whether or not she was conditioned by Disney princesses into wanting that. The point is that is what she wanted, JOHN knew that, from the beginning, and he (presumably) didn't tell her that this wouldn't be good enough for him.
He is wrong not because monogamy is right, but he is wrong because he did not start this relationship with his wife by being honest.
Again: the point is not whether or not monogamy is wrong, but the (apparent) fact that JOHN didn't tell his wife he disagreed with her on monogamy. That's something she'd have a right to know.
79
@72: We actually don't know *any* of that about JOHN's wife.
Right. As I tried to make clear in my previous comment, I'm assuming she's like most people. If that's not true, JOHN is asshole, plain and simple.
@78: I hear you - JOHN could have stepped up, told all the women he dated who he really was, and spent the rest of his life in honorable, heroic solitude. For that matter, so could all of the gay men in the 50's who lied to their wives and children about who they really were.
But humans don't thrive in heroic solitude. They need companionship and love just as much as they need food, and if lying is what it takes to get any of those things, people are going to lie. And your moral condemnation of them is entirely besides the point.
Right. As I tried to make clear in my previous comment, I'm assuming she's like most people. If that's not true, JOHN is asshole, plain and simple.
@78: I hear you - JOHN could have stepped up, told all the women he dated who he really was, and spent the rest of his life in honorable, heroic solitude. For that matter, so could all of the gay men in the 50's who lied to their wives and children about who they really were.
But humans don't thrive in heroic solitude. They need companionship and love just as much as they need food, and if lying is what it takes to get any of those things, people are going to lie. And your moral condemnation of them is entirely besides the point.
80
@79, it's not "moral condemnation", like ankylosaur is personally condemning JOHN to a lifetime of heroic solitude. Someone who wants to get some on the side is NOT the same as a closeted gay dude in the 50's. Also, I don't think anyone in this thread has suggested that JOHN doesn't deserve love & affection, just like anyone else. It's great that he wants to turn things around for himself, & it's not unimaginable that JOHN's wife will forgive him, should he tell her the truth. But JOHN didn't do something noble by sleeping with these women w/out telling his wife. He doesn't say he was suffering or sexless in the relationship he had. Your previous posts about this situation sound, to me, like it's JOHN's *right* to go see these sex workers, & seems to assume that JOHN's wife is inapproachable or somehow otherwise responsible for his doing so (your protestations of trying to remove blame aside).
"People are gonna lie" - well, then, why should anyone bother getting close to anyone else? Sure, there's always gonna be polite, small lies people tell their mates in order to keep the domestic peace. "No, honey, your ass doesn't look fat in those jeans." "No, I don't mind if your mother comes to stay with us for the weekend." But "I have, for most of our relationship, several times a year, sought the services of a sex worker" is a different magnitude of lie, not only because it violates the agreement he has with his wife - which isn't your agreement w/ your SO, or my agreement w/ my SO, but what they have between them - but also because it puts her health at risk. Most people sign on to the small-lie agreement when they decide to cohabitate w/ someone. This goes way past that.
You seem determined to defend JOHN's actions. I don't think he should be run outta town (or his marriage) on a rail, but if he really loved his wife, he'd own up to what he's done.
Relationships are different, post-the-internet. Most people have discovered that there are a lot of kinky people out there that they wouldn't have suspected, mny different types of relationship & a lot of conversations that couldn't have happened between couples even 5 years ago are happening all the time. There's no guarantee JOHN's wife would dump JOHN. Nor is there any guarantee that JOHN feels guilt, the way I'd feel guilt, in a similar situation. *shrug*
I actually agree with you about Disney, & programming of unrealistic expectations in relationships, etc. I've said many times that most romantic movies are just as much a fantasy as any superhero or dragon flick. But that's not what's being discussed here, what expectations led both JOHN & Mrs. JOHN to where they are. He knows he cheated. He wanted Dan's OK to not tell his wife. He now has it. I (& others) disagree. The end.
More...
"People are gonna lie" - well, then, why should anyone bother getting close to anyone else? Sure, there's always gonna be polite, small lies people tell their mates in order to keep the domestic peace. "No, honey, your ass doesn't look fat in those jeans." "No, I don't mind if your mother comes to stay with us for the weekend." But "I have, for most of our relationship, several times a year, sought the services of a sex worker" is a different magnitude of lie, not only because it violates the agreement he has with his wife - which isn't your agreement w/ your SO, or my agreement w/ my SO, but what they have between them - but also because it puts her health at risk. Most people sign on to the small-lie agreement when they decide to cohabitate w/ someone. This goes way past that.
You seem determined to defend JOHN's actions. I don't think he should be run outta town (or his marriage) on a rail, but if he really loved his wife, he'd own up to what he's done.
Relationships are different, post-the-internet. Most people have discovered that there are a lot of kinky people out there that they wouldn't have suspected, mny different types of relationship & a lot of conversations that couldn't have happened between couples even 5 years ago are happening all the time. There's no guarantee JOHN's wife would dump JOHN. Nor is there any guarantee that JOHN feels guilt, the way I'd feel guilt, in a similar situation. *shrug*
I actually agree with you about Disney, & programming of unrealistic expectations in relationships, etc. I've said many times that most romantic movies are just as much a fantasy as any superhero or dragon flick. But that's not what's being discussed here, what expectations led both JOHN & Mrs. JOHN to where they are. He knows he cheated. He wanted Dan's OK to not tell his wife. He now has it. I (& others) disagree. The end.
81
An aside: I was friends w/ an ex of mine for a long time after we broke up. We even occasionally discussed relationship stuff w/ each other for years, as it came up. I knew he wanted to be non-monogamous. When he got really serious, really fast, w/ a controlling woman who wanted to be the queen bee, I suggested to him that this was his big moment. He hadn't been able to enjoy full-on monogamishness w/ his last SO, & since he kinda held the cards at the beginning of this new relationship, I told him the smart thing to do was to lay this on the table w/ his SO early. Don't ambush her w/ it later, tell her up front, negotiate terms, be an adult. I also told him that if he decided to go the cheating route, I didn't want to know, as I wasn't going to lie for him. He flipped out, screaming at me "If I want to cheat on my fucking girlfriend, I'm gonna goddamn cheat on my fucking girlfriend & it's none of your damn business." Fine, I said, see caveat B, don't tell me about it. He & I are no longer friends, but the moment his lady was out of town on a trip, he was Emailing someone else he was hot for. Plus there was physical violence w/ a different ex. Don't miss him. Classy.
82
Actually, if all the married gay men in the '50s came out, they would not have lived in heroic solitude - they all would have started dating each other. You know what defined those married gay men? The misery and isolation of the closet, of their unhappy, unsatisfying marriages and frustrated, confused wives. It didn't get better until gay men and women, as a whole, decided to stop lying and to start... wait for it.... *telling the truth* about who they were and what they wanted.
There are women who are okay with non-monogamy. We know this because enough of them have written Dan or called into the podcast and talked about their situation, their desires and their choices. We do not know if JOHN's wife is one of those women. And neither does JOHN, because he's never asked her. If there's anything I've learned from the decade I've spent reading Dan Savage, it's that there's actually no 'most people.'
Yes, JOHN has the right to pursue companionship. He doesn't have the right to lie about it, not like this. He doesn't have the right to use people and break his solemn promises to get what he wants. And his wife, once she knows what's going on, has the right to make her own choices. After all, if companionship and love were such an overwhelming drive in humans, wouldn't JOHN's wife want to forgive him and keep the marriage together so she can still have a spouse? Both JOHN and his wife deserve to have an honest marriage.
There are women who are okay with non-monogamy. We know this because enough of them have written Dan or called into the podcast and talked about their situation, their desires and their choices. We do not know if JOHN's wife is one of those women. And neither does JOHN, because he's never asked her. If there's anything I've learned from the decade I've spent reading Dan Savage, it's that there's actually no 'most people.'
Yes, JOHN has the right to pursue companionship. He doesn't have the right to lie about it, not like this. He doesn't have the right to use people and break his solemn promises to get what he wants. And his wife, once she knows what's going on, has the right to make her own choices. After all, if companionship and love were such an overwhelming drive in humans, wouldn't JOHN's wife want to forgive him and keep the marriage together so she can still have a spouse? Both JOHN and his wife deserve to have an honest marriage.
83
@82 "if all the married gay men in the '50s came out, they would not have lived in heroic solitude - they all would have started dating each other."
Yes! This!
When all the men using porn came out (or were outed through Kinsey, etc), it became normal to use porn.
If all the monogamish men came out, women would realize that it's rare to be able to live out that Disney happy-ever-after story...
Yes! This!
When all the men using porn came out (or were outed through Kinsey, etc), it became normal to use porn.
If all the monogamish men came out, women would realize that it's rare to be able to live out that Disney happy-ever-after story...
84
@seandr, yes, basically Ms Hopkins and Mr/s Taylor above have already said what I could about your answer.
To summarize: you're making it an either-or choice for John between lying (and getting what he wants) and not lying (and never getting what he wants). There's nothing in his letter that suggests this is the situation. Hence, shifting the blame to the wife is unwarranted.
I'm on record as saying that lies are sometimes the only honest option for a person. I do get your point, believe me. I just don't see that this is the case here. I think you're reading more into this letter than is really there. There are also situations in which lying is not the best solution. This may very well be one of them. Since JOHN never tried talking to his wife (she's the one who started the 'what's-your-kink' talks), neither does he. Like everything you never tried... one is left wondering what would have happened if one had tried. If he had tried. If he had been honest.
To summarize: you're making it an either-or choice for John between lying (and getting what he wants) and not lying (and never getting what he wants). There's nothing in his letter that suggests this is the situation. Hence, shifting the blame to the wife is unwarranted.
I'm on record as saying that lies are sometimes the only honest option for a person. I do get your point, believe me. I just don't see that this is the case here. I think you're reading more into this letter than is really there. There are also situations in which lying is not the best solution. This may very well be one of them. Since JOHN never tried talking to his wife (she's the one who started the 'what's-your-kink' talks), neither does he. Like everything you never tried... one is left wondering what would have happened if one had tried. If he had tried. If he had been honest.
85
@78,79,80:
If we lived in a world where it just wasn't realistically possible for anyone to have a non-monogamous relationship, then yes, it would be ok to lie about seeing sex workers or having an affair. Monogamy isn't reasonable, but if you have to agree to it to have a relationship, you have to agree to it and break your promise.
If we lived in a world where it was just as easy to find a non-monogamous relationship as it is to find a monogamous one, then it wouldn't be ok. There'd be no reason to lie: just break up and find a non-monogamous one.
The problem is, we're somewhere in between. Nonmonogamy is a lot more common now, but there's still some difficulty people have in finding happy non-monogamous relationships, probably more so for older people in more conservative areas. Hell, it's hard for people to find happy relationship of any kind sometimes, especially if they're unattractive for whatever reason. So I don't think this is a black and white issue.
If we lived in a world where it just wasn't realistically possible for anyone to have a non-monogamous relationship, then yes, it would be ok to lie about seeing sex workers or having an affair. Monogamy isn't reasonable, but if you have to agree to it to have a relationship, you have to agree to it and break your promise.
If we lived in a world where it was just as easy to find a non-monogamous relationship as it is to find a monogamous one, then it wouldn't be ok. There'd be no reason to lie: just break up and find a non-monogamous one.
The problem is, we're somewhere in between. Nonmonogamy is a lot more common now, but there's still some difficulty people have in finding happy non-monogamous relationships, probably more so for older people in more conservative areas. Hell, it's hard for people to find happy relationship of any kind sometimes, especially if they're unattractive for whatever reason. So I don't think this is a black and white issue.
86
I think Dan may have failed the LW in this case. I personally thought he asked a great question and provided a great opportunity for Dan to help him navigate that process. He wanted to know something pretty practical - how do I open up to my wife (for example: 'I want you to piss all over me while squatting above me') without giving away that he's experienced in these things (is it not pretty easy to see that he'd have to fake being a virgin to these fantasies, which might make the whole 'getting closer' thing that much more complicated?). Dan's answer was flippant and unhelpful, and frankly, it seems like he didn't even take the time to understand the question. It seems to me that the success of the IGB campaign has left him with less time and energy for the column, which is disappointing... either that or you're just getting bored, Dan.
87
I love the debate on agency. Every individual has a right to make decisions about their lives from an informed vantage point. All the back-and-forth wrangling about whether or not truthfulness is a good idea is fascinating, but it doesn't get around the agency thing. We are all mortals, we all have limited time on this Earth, we all have but one life (I think). Every moment you spend doing something you wouldn't want to do if you knew better is a moment of your finite life that you can't get back. Every moment you make the decision FOR YOUR SPOUSE that they would be better off not knowing, is a moment of genuine living that you are taking away from them. No amount of rationalization is going to convince me that this is an ethical action.
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