Slog
News & ArtsSunday, January 22, 2012
Religion Slog Bible Study: Revelation 13:1-2
Posted by Goldy on Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 7:00 AM
And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
Discuss.
4
I didn't notice at first this came from the bible....thought it was a description of Newt Gingrich's current wife last night.
5
What's the deal with the odd number of heads and horns? Do five of them have two horns and two no horns? Or three have two horns and the rest one? Or one head has all the horns?
ARRRGH. It's like hot dogs and hot dog buns.
Now for the exigetical analysis about how this is all symbolizing Rome or the ancient Jewish establishment or somesuch in 3...2...1...go!
ARRRGH. It's like hot dogs and hot dog buns.
Now for the exigetical analysis about how this is all symbolizing Rome or the ancient Jewish establishment or somesuch in 3...2...1...go!
13
Hey, 52-80! Don't invoke his name, you twit! He's been pretty consistently absent since Fnarf's humiliating takedown of him a couple weeks back (I still giggle when I think of the nonexistent 'Costco Chicken Meme').
18
He has been, now that you mention it. I hadn't really noticed. I guess I only notice it when he's grating on me.
OK, my bad.
OK, my bad.
20
No, he's been around. Certainly not on every thread as in the past, but often enough so you can't say he's been hiding.
22
I think you guys are imagining that he's been laying low. That guy is impervious to criticism and totally immune to the fact that not even his mother likes him.
23
Wait, you guys think the Biblical beast is lurking in the Slog comments? Registered or not? An Awesome Person?
24
Goldy, did you post this because of Chinese New Year? It's the start of the Year of the Dragon, after all.
31
When I was a kid I loved the book of Revelations! Whenever I got bored at church (I'll let you imagine how often that was) I turned to Revelations. It was like a comic book. Monsters and battles and the Whore of Babylon, oh my! And then in the 70's I read the Late Great Planet Earth and knew all the signs of the coming apocalypse. It took me a few years to shake the belief that Gorbachev wasn't the antichrist because of the birthmark on his forehead.
Of course, I'm a deeply scarred adult...
Of course, I'm a deeply scarred adult...
32
That sounds a lot like the movie I was watching on DirectTV last night...Piranha (3D)...in which prehistorical mega-piranha come up from the sea floor and eat the flesh off some bikinied spring breakers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkF5VMRJG…
33
Is this ten crowns per horn, or ten crowns total?
I can't help but think the distinction might be important.
I can't help but think the distinction might be important.
35
You ain't seen nothin' til you've seen the book of Revelation narrated in American Sign Language! A comic book come alive. That content had never really registered to this fallen Lutheran from Bellevue until I accidentally witnessed a 21st century Revelation-a-Thon at a Deaf church. Sheesh, it made my blood run cold, it was so thrilling! Unconvincing of course, plotless, no character development. . . but thrilling all the same.
36
Revelations has always been a favorite of fundamentalists since, as an allegory, it can mean anything the reader wishes it to mean. It is apt this morning as some Sloggers have already noted in relation to Gingrich's win last night. The dragon not only appears in many guises but also spends a lot of time chasing a woman in order to destroy her and her son.
Yet with all of those heads, the dragon could be the entire pack yahoos running and stumbling in the race.
Are South Carolininians minions of Satan or prisoners of their own prejudice and gullibility? I suspect the latter.
Yet with all of those heads, the dragon could be the entire pack yahoos running and stumbling in the race.
Are South Carolininians minions of Satan or prisoners of their own prejudice and gullibility? I suspect the latter.
37
Of course that Deaf preacher man was no ordinary everyday signer, he was an Orator in the best tradition of orators who chill your blood in your veins.
39
I like Will. I've never met him and he has never acted maliciously towards me either, so there is no reason to not like him. He seems kind enough and decent enough.
Rev. 13:1-2
The symbolism of the numbers 7 and 10 are given later in Chapter 17. But really you should go to Daniel (7:2-7). Basically Rome is the beast. The city started as a network of seven hills on the east side of the Tiber, it is a common reference if one is familiar with writings of Virgil and other Roman writers. Interestingly there are three period references in the book of Revelation with Nero's (666 himself) reign (54-68 CE) and Domitian's (81-96 CE) being most often mentioned, but there is also some Vespian's (69-79 CE). It is apocalyptic literature, numerology is common, the number 7 for example is used as a reference for completeness, you'll find the number seven some fifty times are so (I was bored one day). (Tis my understanding that 9 is the number of celestial power in China; three multiplied by itself gives eternity, completion, and fulfillment. Hence nine is considered sacred.)
Christian interpretation usually falls into four groups: Preterists; Historicists; Futurists; Idealists. The details can be fascinating to get bogged down, but so far obsessing leads to scary and silly behavior by some readers.
I consider it literature, a tale about the victory of good over evil. Like many pieces of literature it borrows from the world events of its time and from the stories and themes that its audience is familiar with. I will confess that I'd rather read the "Lord of the Rings" or "The Amber Spyglass", though. So my tastes may be wanting.
Rev. 13:1-2
The symbolism of the numbers 7 and 10 are given later in Chapter 17. But really you should go to Daniel (7:2-7). Basically Rome is the beast. The city started as a network of seven hills on the east side of the Tiber, it is a common reference if one is familiar with writings of Virgil and other Roman writers. Interestingly there are three period references in the book of Revelation with Nero's (666 himself) reign (54-68 CE) and Domitian's (81-96 CE) being most often mentioned, but there is also some Vespian's (69-79 CE). It is apocalyptic literature, numerology is common, the number 7 for example is used as a reference for completeness, you'll find the number seven some fifty times are so (I was bored one day). (Tis my understanding that 9 is the number of celestial power in China; three multiplied by itself gives eternity, completion, and fulfillment. Hence nine is considered sacred.)
Christian interpretation usually falls into four groups: Preterists; Historicists; Futurists; Idealists. The details can be fascinating to get bogged down, but so far obsessing leads to scary and silly behavior by some readers.
I consider it literature, a tale about the victory of good over evil. Like many pieces of literature it borrows from the world events of its time and from the stories and themes that its audience is familiar with. I will confess that I'd rather read the "Lord of the Rings" or "The Amber Spyglass", though. So my tastes may be wanting.
40
Revelation is one of those books that folks just love to shape to their ends. Which is sad, because the points being made behind the imagery are actually relevant to the present time. (Larger truths, not geopolitics….)
Anyway, specific to these lines….
The beast with the seven heads and ten horns represents the seven Emperors of Rome that had come into being by the time the Book of Revelation had been written – Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, Nero, Vespasian, Titus and Domitian. The ten horns represent the previous seven plus the three interim rulers in-between the time of Nero and Vespasian – Galba, Otho and Vitellius.
The “name of blasphemy” represents how the Emperors of Rome would often, among their titles, be listed as “divine,” “God,” “Son of God” – Nero himself added “The Savior of the World.”
The beast is actually four, referenced earlier in Chapter 7 of the book of Daniel. They are combined essentially because they represent previous and present empires, all of which, each in their own way, especially as perceived by Jews (which John was), were considered by many to be cruel and inhuman. The leopard represents Persia, the bear Media, the lion Babylon, and the dragon the empire of Alexander the Great.
Anyway, specific to these lines….
The beast with the seven heads and ten horns represents the seven Emperors of Rome that had come into being by the time the Book of Revelation had been written – Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, Nero, Vespasian, Titus and Domitian. The ten horns represent the previous seven plus the three interim rulers in-between the time of Nero and Vespasian – Galba, Otho and Vitellius.
The “name of blasphemy” represents how the Emperors of Rome would often, among their titles, be listed as “divine,” “God,” “Son of God” – Nero himself added “The Savior of the World.”
The beast is actually four, referenced earlier in Chapter 7 of the book of Daniel. They are combined essentially because they represent previous and present empires, all of which, each in their own way, especially as perceived by Jews (which John was), were considered by many to be cruel and inhuman. The leopard represents Persia, the bear Media, the lion Babylon, and the dragon the empire of Alexander the Great.
41
@39: There are many wonderful things about SLOG. You are one, Kim, and so is Fnarf. But there are a couple things about SLOG that creep me out, and one is the cult of hate-on-Will. It reminds me too much of 8th grade, when the really cool kid decided he didn't like someone, and then all the slightly less cool people decided to pick on the same designated loser, to prove that they are cool, too. Unlike the "cool" kids back in my school, Fnarf is genuinely intelligent, insightful and witty; in fact, he is genuinely cool, by my lights. It's all kind of unecessary. Does Will bring it on himself? Yes, maybe so, but the ugly fact of it is that the designated loser often does. "If he weren't so aggressively dorky, people wouldn't pick on him." How often have we heard that? There's often a grain of truth to it. Still, it creeps me out.
42
I don't see anything here that helps sort out Giants, Patriots, 49ers and Ravens. Maybe it's all about the SC Primary.
43
The demon had 7 heads? Let's see.... Romney, Gingrich, Santorum, Paul, Bachman, Cain and Huntsman!
45
@ 41 (Eric),
Dorky like everything is relative. I'm inclined to think that ones humanity is enough of a reason to treat a person kindly. Of course kindly does not mean you don't dispute what people say. Everyone here comes for a reason, there is some need that is met by commenting. I can only comprehend my own reasons and unfortunately I have not learned to see life very well beyond my own lens of experience, so I may not understand someone's comment or see how it adds to the thread, but I'm inclined due to my own life experiences to think that the commenter needs to belong and needs to be part of the group dynamic. Thus I don't feel irritated, instead I wonder as to why they felt the need and thus feel compassion. We're all dorks in the eyes of someone else. I'm just a tenderhearted one. Cool or dorky, dislike is, in my opinion, is something to be reserved for those who consciously and maliciously go out of their way to cause harm, limit the civil rights, and impede justice for others. So I may not understand some of Will's comments, like he may not understand mine, but Will does not want to do evil upon others. Just the opposite if his comments are an accurate reflection of his heart.
Take care.
Dorky like everything is relative. I'm inclined to think that ones humanity is enough of a reason to treat a person kindly. Of course kindly does not mean you don't dispute what people say. Everyone here comes for a reason, there is some need that is met by commenting. I can only comprehend my own reasons and unfortunately I have not learned to see life very well beyond my own lens of experience, so I may not understand someone's comment or see how it adds to the thread, but I'm inclined due to my own life experiences to think that the commenter needs to belong and needs to be part of the group dynamic. Thus I don't feel irritated, instead I wonder as to why they felt the need and thus feel compassion. We're all dorks in the eyes of someone else. I'm just a tenderhearted one. Cool or dorky, dislike is, in my opinion, is something to be reserved for those who consciously and maliciously go out of their way to cause harm, limit the civil rights, and impede justice for others. So I may not understand some of Will's comments, like he may not understand mine, but Will does not want to do evil upon others. Just the opposite if his comments are an accurate reflection of his heart.
Take care.
47
@41 Eric, I didn't grok the Will hate for a while either, and then I kept running into him at Slog Happies. I can forgive his comments that hardly ever add anything to the conversation, though it is pretty damn annoying, but in person he is genuinely a rude creepster that makes every woman I've known to interact with him feel really uncomfortable, like weird sexual harassment uncomfortable. That's reason enough for me.
48
Kim,
If I wasn't clear, my intention was not to challenge your characterization of Will, but to chide Fnarf and those who are impressed by Fnarf (including, sure, me) for being kinda mean.
If I wasn't clear, my intention was not to challenge your characterization of Will, but to chide Fnarf and those who are impressed by Fnarf (including, sure, me) for being kinda mean.
49
You're fine, Eric.
I was not disagreeing. I think dislike is perfectly acceptable. There is nothing wrong when someone disliking someone else. I'm sure some people have very real reasons for their feelings towards Will. I don't have those reasons. I can't justify disliking someone because others do. I need concrete reasons, and even then my personality lends towards pity and non-engagement. Clearly others feel differently. But it does sometime appear like a dog pile has happened on the threads.
I was not disagreeing. I think dislike is perfectly acceptable. There is nothing wrong when someone disliking someone else. I'm sure some people have very real reasons for their feelings towards Will. I don't have those reasons. I can't justify disliking someone because others do. I need concrete reasons, and even then my personality lends towards pity and non-engagement. Clearly others feel differently. But it does sometime appear like a dog pile has happened on the threads.
50
@47: I can imagine that meeting Will (or for that matter any of you) in person might change my take on things. I wasn't even able to get down to Denver for 5280s high-altitude SLOG event a couple years ago. I have a mental image of a lot of you SLOGers, though. I figure you all to look mostly like anime characters, but cuter and with bigger eyes. Half the time, I follow a particular handle for a month before I realize I've assumed the wrong gender for them. I recently saw photos that suggest that Fnarf, when he goes out of the house, apparently occasionally covers up his own natural shimmering gold pelt with a sort of Clark Kent fright mask.
51
"and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority"
This gives us the phrase "My ass is really dragon today"
This gives us the phrase "My ass is really dragon today"
55
@34: "I've decided not to read revelations until it comes out in graphic novel format."
http://www.lastgasp.com/d/34274/
Boy are you in luck! (I own this, and it's BEAUTIFUL.)
http://www.lastgasp.com/d/34274/
Boy are you in luck! (I own this, and it's BEAUTIFUL.)
57
@ 50, I don't have time for a search, but Will ran for head of his district's Democratic Party, and was interviewed on camera by The Stranger. You might be able to find the youtube video. I'm on my iPod touch so I can't search for it easily.
61
What Kim said. Short version - Revelation is a bit of a political cartoon (in text) to bolster the morale of some Christians who were still on the bad side of Rome at that point. The thesis is pretty basic - Rome may seem to be in charge, but hang in there, God has the last word. Go Team Jesus. Now if only someone could tell Kirk Cameron..........
62
Interesting commentary on this topic by the late Uriah Smith in his tome "Daniel and the Revelation."
63
Lest we forget Mr. Mudede's commentary on December 19, 2011, about "The Living City." There might be a nexus for such metaphors and the literary value of prophecies like Daniel, Revelation, etc.
64
I can't wait to see what's in that beast's tax returns.
Oh, wait. Am I in the wrong thread? Hmm...probably not.
Oh, wait. Am I in the wrong thread? Hmm...probably not.
66
The jehovah's witnesses believe that beast represents what is on earth today in the form of the United Nations if i remember my brainwashing sessions correctly.
67
i don't think will deserves every beatdown he receives here, but what @47 said is true, and any female who's been to a slog happy can attest to it.
68
Shit. This slog post is a sign. Prepare for 2012. YE GADS. End times. (....leaves to go buy some canned food and bottled water)
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