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News & ArtsThursday, January 19, 2012
Chow "Save yourselves: go vegan."
Posted by Bethany Jean Clement on Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 11:55 AM
Over on this post about antivegan Paula Deen, commenter What Now? directs our attention to "The Evidence for a Vegan Diet" in the Atlantic, in which the author seeks to:
...offer a personal counter-narrative to the increasingly popular and decidedly dour "I'm a recovering vegan" storyline. Perhaps inspired by Lierre Kieth's The Vegetarian Myth, a book that chronicles the author's losing battle with a plant-based diet, bloggers have clogged foodie networks with angst-ridden accounts of fatigue, sickness, hair loss, anxiety, diminished sex drive, and mental breakdown after quitting animal products. The problem with these accounts, as far as I can tell, is that those who made the vegan leap (and I praise them for doing it) did so without doing due diligence on the details of intelligent veganism. Someone can live on potato chips, pot, and cherry soda and call himself a vegan. Many recidivists have evidently tried to do just that.
What Now adds: "I also admired vegans for a long time. Five years ago I tried a one-month vegan challenge. I've never looked back :D."
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Robin Gibb, Steve Jobs, Linda McCartney and Christina Applegate say veganism and vegetarianism protect against cancer.
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@2 for the Snowpocolypse Win.
The problem with America is we talk in extremes - 100 percent Pure versus 100 Percent Unpure. In first world nations, it's more of a sliding scale debate, with most people choosing to go lower down on the food chain more often. Which, when you add it up, makes more of an impact.
The problem with America is we talk in extremes - 100 percent Pure versus 100 Percent Unpure. In first world nations, it's more of a sliding scale debate, with most people choosing to go lower down on the food chain more often. Which, when you add it up, makes more of an impact.
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Read the comments on that story. Right away, someone who ate with the same crowd, and couldn't handle it, and was abandoned.
I especially like his like "the problem with these accounts, as far as I can tell...". As far as you can tell? You can't tell, dude. You can't say that all the failures just had cherry soda.
It's not that no one does vegan wrong. But c'mon, fucking admit that for some fraction of us omnivores, veganism doesn't work, biologically.
It's a diet, not a way of thinking. So quit being so evangelical about it.
I especially like his like "the problem with these accounts, as far as I can tell...". As far as you can tell? You can't tell, dude. You can't say that all the failures just had cherry soda.
It's not that no one does vegan wrong. But c'mon, fucking admit that for some fraction of us omnivores, veganism doesn't work, biologically.
It's a diet, not a way of thinking. So quit being so evangelical about it.
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Yeah it's 29F outside with a 5inche layer of snow and a nice ice glazing. I'm really going to be able to grow lettuce, tomatoes, all the greens I want. Food is not the enemy. Bad farming practices and bad eating habits are. Meat is not evil, it provides things NO vegetable nor combination of non-meat items can.
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Interesting that vegans who don't eat perfectly aren't "true vegans" but meat-eaters who drink soda and eat cheez curls are unhealthy because they include meat in their diets.
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whatever, I'm so tired of the extreme moralizing around food. it's as bad as the wing nuts who scream about the morality of sex.
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@4: it's not just a diet. Spend a little time online reading the groupthink posts surrounding Denise Minger's criticism of The China Study and you'll feel like you're at a prayer meeting and she's the antichrist. And amazingly, T. Colin Campbell (wrote that book, and star of "Forks Over Knives") is right there in the dirt, attacking anyone who questions him for not having his credentials instead of for what they actually argue.
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Oh, I started out with veganism with a time-based "challenge," too! Two weeks turned into three years pretty easily. I am no longer vegan, but I'm still vegetarian and a lot of vegan habits have followed me, like butter avoidance.
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I'm vegan, I'm happy about, it was my choice and for a myriad of reasons, some personal, some political. Other people can make whatever choices they want. I don't care. I'm healthy, I watch what I eat and run almost every day, amongst other things, and I also love potato chips. A lot of vegan suck. A lot of omnivores do too.
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I don't doubt that some vegans may do well on that diet, but as someone who became ill -- deathly ill -- on a low-fat vegetarian diet, I know that one size does not fit all.
Loved the idea of becoming a vegetarian, loved the veggies, but it became apparent over the two year span that I was allergic to some of the major protein sources -- including soy -- add in reactions to milk, gluten, anything fermented, mushrooms.
Also: too many carbs made my blood pressure soar for the first time in my life.
A holistic doctor did blood tests, and confirmed that I needed a certain amount of animal protein and fat in my diet.
Just ran into someone else last night with some of the same problems with being a vegetarian.
Veganism would have killed me sooner, I imagine.
Loved the idea of becoming a vegetarian, loved the veggies, but it became apparent over the two year span that I was allergic to some of the major protein sources -- including soy -- add in reactions to milk, gluten, anything fermented, mushrooms.
Also: too many carbs made my blood pressure soar for the first time in my life.
A holistic doctor did blood tests, and confirmed that I needed a certain amount of animal protein and fat in my diet.
Just ran into someone else last night with some of the same problems with being a vegetarian.
Veganism would have killed me sooner, I imagine.
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Paula Deen puts sugar and white flour in EVERYTHING. fyi both are vegan.
Butter, eggs, cheese, meat, and other animal foods are nutritional powerhouses. They are often the very foods that people with diabetes make the staples of their diets after becoming diabetic.
Butter, eggs, cheese, meat, and other animal foods are nutritional powerhouses. They are often the very foods that people with diabetes make the staples of their diets after becoming diabetic.
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Eating this helps with fatique, sickness and sex drive? Are you serious?
[IMG]http://i44.tinypic.com/2vuy7b8.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i44.tinypic.com/2vuy7b8.jpg[/IMG]
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@3 That's what I keep telling evangelical vegans and the MMMMMMBACON meme slaves. Lower on the food chain is generally better for our bodies and for the environment. People do need more education about nutrition . Everybody's bodies are different. Food is a big part of culture, and people are resistant to change. What shall we do?
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@13: Yeah, because that's exactly what a healthy diet involving meat looks like. Just like going vegan equals chugging a gallon of olive oil.
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@4
I would like to echo your comments.
I, for example, suffering from IBS, have difficulty digesting many fruits, legumes, and certain vegetables; and so I depend upon animal proteins (and fats) in my diet. Veganism would simply never be feasible for me.
I would like to echo your comments.
I, for example, suffering from IBS, have difficulty digesting many fruits, legumes, and certain vegetables; and so I depend upon animal proteins (and fats) in my diet. Veganism would simply never be feasible for me.
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@13, that has nothing to do with anything. Relying on a gross-out photo is as far away from a rational argument as you could get.
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@12, A diet extremely heavy in fat (butter, cheese, eggs, and meat) is not exactly a healthy diet, let alone for someone living with diabetes. If you have Type II Diabetes, you would be far better off getting your calories from complex carbohydrates and assisting their metabolization with exercise, rather than avoiding carbohydrates completely. Getting most of your calories from fat is only going to exacerbate the problems that likely landed you with the condition in the first place.
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With all the talk surrounding Paula Deen's Diabetes, I realize just how uninformed everyone really is about nutrition, diabetes, and the ecological impact of our food choices. I used to be as well....and I was a vegan for two years, a vegetarian for one, and now I follow a paleo diet (and I have never felt better)...anyways, it's not our fault. We were all fed bad science, backed by our government. We were told that low-fat is healthiest, that saturated fat raises cholesterol, that we should be eating more whole grains, etc....these are all lies. Why would the government push these things on us if they are unhealthy? For decades scientists didn't actually understand nutrition all that well, but the bigger reason is that our government will support capitalist agriculture, and pharmaceutical companies before they will ever tell the people how to actually be healthier. But these are no longer excuses, we know better, and it's time to abandon these health myths.
I encourage everyone to read The Vegetarian Myth. You will find that what is healthiest for humans AND for the environment is to abandon all grains, soy, and vegetable oil.
I encourage everyone to read The Vegetarian Myth. You will find that what is healthiest for humans AND for the environment is to abandon all grains, soy, and vegetable oil.
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Dear vegetarians/vegans:
I understand that you, impressed with the GOPs reality distortion field, are trying the same tactics. You want me to agree with you because it's good for me, not just because you want me to agree with you. The cows don't matter. It's me you care about.
It's not working on me. Please fucking quit.
kisses,
chim2
I understand that you, impressed with the GOPs reality distortion field, are trying the same tactics. You want me to agree with you because it's good for me, not just because you want me to agree with you. The cows don't matter. It's me you care about.
It's not working on me. Please fucking quit.
kisses,
chim2
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@17, that's as far away from a rational response as you can get. The picture is a glimpse of what the American meat supply looks like. It also includes pink slime that couldn't be fed to a dog until a few years ago. It's not a gross-out, people eat those things when they are eating meat.
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@ 19, all the foods i listed are nutritional powerhouses because of the amazing amounts of vitamins and minerals they contain To get the nutrients in 4 oz of liver you would need to eat 5 pounds of fruit.
and fat isn't bad for us. it has all been a ridiculous lie
http://www.fathead-movie.com/index.php/n…
and fat isn't bad for us. it has all been a ridiculous lie
http://www.fathead-movie.com/index.php/n…
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@ 21, I blame the media (and the short attention spans of Americans) more than the government. They haven't exactly helped much, but they aren't the ones devoting major news stories and special reports to each fad diet that comes down the pike.
I think Michael Pollan put it best when he described a "national eating disorder" in The Omnivore's Dilemma. Partially the result of our melting pot culture (compared to old cultures with centuries-long eating traditions), partly the result of our bad agriculture policies leading to a glut of corn and a need to do something with it all, Americans simply aren't taught how to eat well because few of us KNOW it in the first place. It's the reason why fad diets exist, and why people are willing to hop from one to the next. I think veganism is becoming the next fad diet, which means that people with short attention spans, hoping for some miracle, are taking it up.
Medicine is also to blame. My dad was a doctor, and he told me once that nutrition was not part of the medical training doctors receive. Unless they're referring people to a nutritionist, patients aren't learning anything about that at their checkups, and people don't usually see nutritionists more long unless they're undergoing a drastic change in diet - like after surviving their first heart attack.
I think Michael Pollan put it best when he described a "national eating disorder" in The Omnivore's Dilemma. Partially the result of our melting pot culture (compared to old cultures with centuries-long eating traditions), partly the result of our bad agriculture policies leading to a glut of corn and a need to do something with it all, Americans simply aren't taught how to eat well because few of us KNOW it in the first place. It's the reason why fad diets exist, and why people are willing to hop from one to the next. I think veganism is becoming the next fad diet, which means that people with short attention spans, hoping for some miracle, are taking it up.
Medicine is also to blame. My dad was a doctor, and he told me once that nutrition was not part of the medical training doctors receive. Unless they're referring people to a nutritionist, patients aren't learning anything about that at their checkups, and people don't usually see nutritionists more long unless they're undergoing a drastic change in diet - like after surviving their first heart attack.
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@23, I don't think anyone wants to save you. Some people would like to save the planet, and ending your support of the meat industry would do more than any other action you could take.
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I've lost 85 pounds and reversed a variety of unpleasant symptoms (unstable blood sugar, chronic fatigue, anemia, eczema, joint inflammation, menstrual problems), by eating meat, fish, eggs, vegetables, and full-fat dairy. I don't care what other people eat, and I don't care what vegans/vegetarians think about what I eat. My choices are working for me.
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@29 very good points about the media and doctors...I have heard of that book and I think I will add it to my reading list. When I mention the government supporting bad science and misinformation when it comes to nutrition I am mostly thinking about the food pyramid, and now the food plate, because that is what children are taught about food. These charts include foods that we don't actually need, foods that do more harm than good...like grains. So my only conclusion in this case is that the government is simply supporting mass agriculture.
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@19
It is funny though, because the low-carb Atkins diet is just a slight modification of the diet Doctors put patients on that are suffering from type 2 Diabetes.
It is funny though, because the low-carb Atkins diet is just a slight modification of the diet Doctors put patients on that are suffering from type 2 Diabetes.
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Vegetarian here. I've never preached to anyone about food. My personal choice is to contribute as little as I can to the killing of animals and to the environmental problems that come with massive livestock farming.
I suggest some of you look into the concept of "healthy" considering that that word has no medical definition.
I suggest some of you look into the concept of "healthy" considering that that word has no medical definition.
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@24, people don't mostly eat meat that looks like soft serve. You and other people use that image because people find it unpleasant, and you want to link that with meat-eating in general. It's making not a rational argument, or any kind of argument at all really. Turning around and calling me irrational for pointing that out is pretty silly.
Do you have a reference for your claim that "pink slime" now approved for human consumption was a few years ago not even approved for dog food?
When this picture went around people uncritically repeated a lot of misinformation about it, including that all chicken patties and chicken nuggets and things like that are made of this, mechanically-separated chicken. Anyone knows from just using their senses that chicken burgers/nuggets are actually either actual cuts of meat, or ground. Hot dogs, yes, those are more finely ground or made of mechanically-separated meat. But there's nothing inherently wrong with grinding or processing meat; sausage and and ground chicken/beef and chopped fish and such have been around forever--preparing meat that way makes less desirable/palatable cuts into useful food and results in less waste, which is obviously a positive thing.
Do you have a reference for your claim that "pink slime" now approved for human consumption was a few years ago not even approved for dog food?
When this picture went around people uncritically repeated a lot of misinformation about it, including that all chicken patties and chicken nuggets and things like that are made of this, mechanically-separated chicken. Anyone knows from just using their senses that chicken burgers/nuggets are actually either actual cuts of meat, or ground. Hot dogs, yes, those are more finely ground or made of mechanically-separated meat. But there's nothing inherently wrong with grinding or processing meat; sausage and and ground chicken/beef and chopped fish and such have been around forever--preparing meat that way makes less desirable/palatable cuts into useful food and results in less waste, which is obviously a positive thing.
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@35
"I've never preached to anyone about food." But the you go ahead and do so here, in a rather passive-aggressive manner.
"I've never preached to anyone about food." But the you go ahead and do so here, in a rather passive-aggressive manner.
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Your life is seriously lacking when you limit what you put in your stomach. I am not vegan, but some of my favorite dishes are. Put some variety in your fucking mouth and shut up. No one cares. Eat what you want, and make it good.
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@36, I think a lot of people do eat that meat. I believe you've heard of McDonald's. It's a fairly large chain that sells meat, and they had at one served billions.
And that is a ridiculous defense of processed foods. Although people on here disagree, I think everyone, but you, would agree that eating processed foods is not healthy. The thing that makes inherently unhealthy? The fact that things like pink slime get added in that process.
Here's a link to the New York Times story on pink slime. Not sure who you're astroturfing for, but to pre-empt your winning comeback, I am aware that, on Dec. 24, 2011, the aforementioned McDonalds vowed to stop including it in its burgers.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/31/us/31m…
And that is a ridiculous defense of processed foods. Although people on here disagree, I think everyone, but you, would agree that eating processed foods is not healthy. The thing that makes inherently unhealthy? The fact that things like pink slime get added in that process.
Here's a link to the New York Times story on pink slime. Not sure who you're astroturfing for, but to pre-empt your winning comeback, I am aware that, on Dec. 24, 2011, the aforementioned McDonalds vowed to stop including it in its burgers.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/31/us/31m…
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@ 33, I can't think of a society in human history who hasn't included grains, so I'm a bit skeptical that they're bad for you in and of themselves. If you can quickly summarize what they say, I'm all ears.
Anyway, The Omnivore's Dilemma offers a very nice overview of how mass corn production, the result of subsidies no one has the balls to end, came about following a food shortage (which wasn't all that serious) in the early 70s, and how it's completely changed the food supply to what it is today. It was the best part of the book.
Anyway, The Omnivore's Dilemma offers a very nice overview of how mass corn production, the result of subsidies no one has the balls to end, came about following a food shortage (which wasn't all that serious) in the early 70s, and how it's completely changed the food supply to what it is today. It was the best part of the book.
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That first sentence @ 40 should read, "I can't think of a society in human history who hasn't included grains in their diets..."
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@25except for this......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPayTWlAQ…
Though I certainly don't think all vegans make the leap from merely annoying to pepper-spray-pie terrorists.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPayTWlAQ…
Though I certainly don't think all vegans make the leap from merely annoying to pepper-spray-pie terrorists.
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Meat produced on small-scale, sustainable farms is also available to consumers. McDonald's is not the only option for meat-eaters.
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@39, so someone who presents a different opinion is "astroturfing"? I couldn't possibly have a different opinion without it being sponsored by McDonald's? Nice Ad Hominem there...good job.
That NYT article is NOT about mechanically-separated chicken, by the way, your "pink slime." But I'm sure you already know that. It's about a specific beef company and problems with their methods. If the story was that all mechanically-separated meat had the same problem, wouldn't they have written that story?
When people talk about "processed foods" being unhealthy they're not talking about ground vs. non-ground meat. You obviously don't think any meat is healthy anyway, so don't pretend to make that argument. Ground meat is in a different physical shape but actually is way less changed from its natural state as far as nutrient breakdown than a box of Ho-Hos or saltines.
That NYT article is NOT about mechanically-separated chicken, by the way, your "pink slime." But I'm sure you already know that. It's about a specific beef company and problems with their methods. If the story was that all mechanically-separated meat had the same problem, wouldn't they have written that story?
When people talk about "processed foods" being unhealthy they're not talking about ground vs. non-ground meat. You obviously don't think any meat is healthy anyway, so don't pretend to make that argument. Ground meat is in a different physical shape but actually is way less changed from its natural state as far as nutrient breakdown than a box of Ho-Hos or saltines.
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@37
Apparently you think any explanation qualifies as passive-aggressive preaching. I'm not interesting in telling anyone what they should be doing. I'm telling you what I do and why for your consideration. Or do you think any viewpoint different from yours is an affront?
Apparently you think any explanation qualifies as passive-aggressive preaching. I'm not interesting in telling anyone what they should be doing. I'm telling you what I do and why for your consideration. Or do you think any viewpoint different from yours is an affront?
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@44, your responses and defenses are completely empty. Thus, the astrufing charge. You claimed that there was no support for pink slime, and so I posted the story. It was about about beef being supplied to some of the biggest food chains. It certainly wasn't a limited occurence, as you're trying to miscontrue it.
I don't think all meat is unhealthy. I don't see how that's obvious at all. I do think there is a problem with agri-business in the US. I also think Americans eat too much meat, and that the planet cannot sustain everyone eating that much.
I don't think all meat is unhealthy. I don't see how that's obvious at all. I do think there is a problem with agri-business in the US. I also think Americans eat too much meat, and that the planet cannot sustain everyone eating that much.
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I don't know. I do know that I have IBS, as does one of our children, and consuming dairy and meat make us both ill. We've had the blood work, the upper GIs, the endoscopies, the colonoscopies and we do better on a plant based diet. My better half and our other child have no issues. Meal preparation is a compromise and involves creativity. Nothing is perfect. My $0.02 would be to listen to your body and do what is right for yourself physically, emotionally, intellectually... And be willing to adapt to optimize things over time. As always feel free to toss it in the old dustbin. :-)
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@45
Look up the definition of passive-aggressive and then re-read your post. Then get back to me.
Look up the definition of passive-aggressive and then re-read your post. Then get back to me.
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@46: My "responses and defenses" are "completely empty"? So after making that judgement about me you decide that someone is *paying* me to make a post on this blog and pretend it's spontaneous (the definition of "astroturfing)? Are you serious?
I never said there was "no support" for "pink slime." I said that it doesn't represent meat consumption at large, like you imply it does. Of course there are problems with industrial meat production. Of course grass-fed and small-farm meat is better for you. The fact that mechanically-separated meat exists doesn't speak to that, though. Plenty of people are eating tubes of Wal-Mart ground beef that's not humanely raised and is corn-fed and contributes to environmental problems...all of which can be discussed without posting pictures of "pink slime" in response to someone simply supporting meat-eating, or resorting to name-calling, pulling "astroturfing" charges completely out of thin air, etc.
I never said there was "no support" for "pink slime." I said that it doesn't represent meat consumption at large, like you imply it does. Of course there are problems with industrial meat production. Of course grass-fed and small-farm meat is better for you. The fact that mechanically-separated meat exists doesn't speak to that, though. Plenty of people are eating tubes of Wal-Mart ground beef that's not humanely raised and is corn-fed and contributes to environmental problems...all of which can be discussed without posting pictures of "pink slime" in response to someone simply supporting meat-eating, or resorting to name-calling, pulling "astroturfing" charges completely out of thin air, etc.
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@40 I'm kind of surprised that after your first intelligent response you would come back and say something like 'all societies, everywhere, throughout history, have eaten grains..so they can't be bad.'
Humans haven't ALWAYS eaten grains. We've only been farming for the past 10,000 years. We are genetically the same as our pre-farming ancestors. And evidence shows that the diseases which currently plague us are not only linked to grains and dairy, but began shortly after we started farming. Grains (processed or not) contain anti-nutrients, like lectins, which leach more nutrients from our bodies than they deliver. Digesting grains actually pulls calcium from our teeth and bones leading to tooth decay, and osteoporosis. Almost all grains are high glycemic..which can lead to type 2 diabetes. Grains cause inflammation throughout our entire body, and cholesterol is produced to repair the damage that inflammation causes to our arteries.
Many studies have been done on remote civilizations in the tropics where their diet consists of fish, chicken, eggs, coconut, and some greens. What they found was that these people didn't have any instances of the diseases we have in the developed world, not even acne.
That's the quickest summary I can give. It's worth looking into.
Humans haven't ALWAYS eaten grains. We've only been farming for the past 10,000 years. We are genetically the same as our pre-farming ancestors. And evidence shows that the diseases which currently plague us are not only linked to grains and dairy, but began shortly after we started farming. Grains (processed or not) contain anti-nutrients, like lectins, which leach more nutrients from our bodies than they deliver. Digesting grains actually pulls calcium from our teeth and bones leading to tooth decay, and osteoporosis. Almost all grains are high glycemic..which can lead to type 2 diabetes. Grains cause inflammation throughout our entire body, and cholesterol is produced to repair the damage that inflammation causes to our arteries.
Many studies have been done on remote civilizations in the tropics where their diet consists of fish, chicken, eggs, coconut, and some greens. What they found was that these people didn't have any instances of the diseases we have in the developed world, not even acne.
That's the quickest summary I can give. It's worth looking into.
51
So many experts on this thread! Apparently vegans don't hold the patent on proselytizing.
Enough already. Imma go enjoy my onion soup.
Enough already. Imma go enjoy my onion soup.
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@ 50, I said "history," meaning since we developed settlements, learned writing, and the like. I would point out that our population explosion, along with our increased longevity, might have something to do with that. (Or, it might not. I'm not an anthropologist, so I can't say for certain.)
But I've been around for a few years, and every now and then we hear about how something we've been eating for millenia is just bad for us, and eventually is disproven. I've heard meat and vegetables both described this way. Further, I've heard of studies that high meat diets can also leech calcium from your bones. (That was more than 20 years ago.)
Everything we eat does affect our health, it's true, and I won't dismiss the possibility that grains have side effects in the form of certain diseases, like acne. However, given that we have people who live to be 100 who ate grains all their lives tends to suggest that maybe these side effects, in total, aren't all that serious. That's not to say that everything works for everyone (celiac disease comes to mind), but without a consensus and large body of study showing this assertion to be true, it's wiser to wait for further study before concluding that it is.
I will look into it, starting with the book you recommend. Thank you.
But I've been around for a few years, and every now and then we hear about how something we've been eating for millenia is just bad for us, and eventually is disproven. I've heard meat and vegetables both described this way. Further, I've heard of studies that high meat diets can also leech calcium from your bones. (That was more than 20 years ago.)
Everything we eat does affect our health, it's true, and I won't dismiss the possibility that grains have side effects in the form of certain diseases, like acne. However, given that we have people who live to be 100 who ate grains all their lives tends to suggest that maybe these side effects, in total, aren't all that serious. That's not to say that everything works for everyone (celiac disease comes to mind), but without a consensus and large body of study showing this assertion to be true, it's wiser to wait for further study before concluding that it is.
I will look into it, starting with the book you recommend. Thank you.
53
I'm 52, and have been a vegan for 28 years. From the beginning I noticed that this was a very touchy issue with people, and have consequently tried my best to avoid preachiness and guilt trips. Even the most well-intentioned people struggle with the politics of food and end up making the choice that works for them. For some reason, that struggle doesn't always resolve to empathy, and the battle lines get drawn.
For me, it comes down to factory farm conditions. I can't tolerate the thought that I am culpable in another being's suffering. But I do have to admit that in contrast to 28 years ago, there are a lot of ethical alternatives, and with a little effort one can consume animals that have been humanely raised.
Too late for me, though; I love being a vegan, occasional flatulence aside!
For me, it comes down to factory farm conditions. I can't tolerate the thought that I am culpable in another being's suffering. But I do have to admit that in contrast to 28 years ago, there are a lot of ethical alternatives, and with a little effort one can consume animals that have been humanely raised.
Too late for me, though; I love being a vegan, occasional flatulence aside!
54
@ crinuendo, if you're still checking this thread...
I've placed a hold request for The Vegetarian Myth at my library, so I'll be reading it soon. But while looking online, I came across this blog post, and it sounds like the book speaks more to the environmentally destructive aspect of agriculture (which I knew about and don't dispute) as well as the fact that the American diet contains way too much grains, corn especially (which I also knew, thanks to the chapters covering it in The Omnivore's Dilemma).
I didn't read it thoroughly (as you can see, it's long), but I did search for all instances of the word "grain" and didn't see anything likening grain to poison, or else describing them as foods that shouldn't be in the human diet at all. (Not in the body of the post; some commenters chimed in with that idea, though.)
I'll keep looking. But I won't take any posts from food fad gurus as gospel - I've been down that road and know where it leads.
I've placed a hold request for The Vegetarian Myth at my library, so I'll be reading it soon. But while looking online, I came across this blog post, and it sounds like the book speaks more to the environmentally destructive aspect of agriculture (which I knew about and don't dispute) as well as the fact that the American diet contains way too much grains, corn especially (which I also knew, thanks to the chapters covering it in The Omnivore's Dilemma).
I didn't read it thoroughly (as you can see, it's long), but I did search for all instances of the word "grain" and didn't see anything likening grain to poison, or else describing them as foods that shouldn't be in the human diet at all. (Not in the body of the post; some commenters chimed in with that idea, though.)
I'll keep looking. But I won't take any posts from food fad gurus as gospel - I've been down that road and know where it leads.
55
@ 53, you should know that harvesting machines kill field mice and other small, field-dwelling animals every time they're used. It probably happens to fast for them to suffer, but don't kid yourself that veganism means no animals are dying.
56
@55: I'm not kidding myself about that, nor am I kidding myself when I do all the other semi-hypercritical things I do. And I don't begin to think that me being a vegan means a rat's ass (so to speak) in the big picture.
There is a scale difference however: many more animals are effected by a non-vegan diet. And those harvesting machines are no doubt harvesting grain for farm animals as well.
There is a scale difference however: many more animals are effected by a non-vegan diet. And those harvesting machines are no doubt harvesting grain for farm animals as well.
57
I have yet to meet a vegan or vegetarian who also isn't on some sort of anti-depressant. People don't get fat from eating any one particular food in moderation. The Paula Deen diet is full of excessive fat and carbs that equal a high caloric intake. If you eat more calories than you burn, you will gain weight. If you burn more calories than you eat, you will lose weight. Like anything else, meat, especially red meat, should be eaten in limited quantities. I usually stick to poultry, and seafood, with the occasional steak. I am in excellent health, and am with in the proper BMI range.
58
@49, you said,"Do you have a reference for your claim that "pink slime" now approved for human consumption was a few years ago not even approved for dog food?" So, I sent it to you.
Then you said, "It's about a specific beef company and problems with their methods." Considering it's a company that supplied the biggest food chains, I'd say that was a mis-characterization.
As far as astroturfing, I do suspect posts from people who defend factory farming and challenge pictures and articles that simply report the state of the American food chain. You are acting as though reasonable people might disagree, but the state of this country's health is an issue that could bankrupt the country and outbreaks of e coli and listeria only seem to be increasing in frequecy. Do you have evidence to disagree with this?
Then you said, "It's about a specific beef company and problems with their methods." Considering it's a company that supplied the biggest food chains, I'd say that was a mis-characterization.
As far as astroturfing, I do suspect posts from people who defend factory farming and challenge pictures and articles that simply report the state of the American food chain. You are acting as though reasonable people might disagree, but the state of this country's health is an issue that could bankrupt the country and outbreaks of e coli and listeria only seem to be increasing in frequecy. Do you have evidence to disagree with this?
60
@58, what do you mean "I sent it to you"? I don't see any posts about mechanically-separated chicken being illegal for dog consumption, let alone human. Hot dogs and other finely-ground meats have been on the market forever.
No matter how large the issue, the story was indeed about a specific company. The story was NOT "about pink slime" and about all mechanically-separated meats killing people left and right. That's just not the case. Again, I'm not saying hot dogs are health food, but they don't all have the issues the story talks about.
When did I defend factory farming? You originally posted your "pink slime" photo in response to someone who simply said that meat could be healthy. That person didn't mention factory farming, mechanically-separated chicken, etc. You tried to equate the photo with the very idea of eating meat, and I just jumped in to point out that you, like most others using that photo, were trying to make meat-eating about feeling grossed out by that photo. Because, again, the fact that meat is finely ground is not in and of itself a problem, and ground meat DOES make more of the animal palatable, which is a good thing.
You seem to be implying that "the state of this country's health" is a direct result of meat consumption, even while kids across the country are drinking Powerade like water and eating huge portions of other sources of sugar and processed carbs. I just don't see people walking around eating meat like I do them eating/drinking simple carbs. I think it's reasonable to suggest that the bigger problem may be increasing rates of type II diabetes (what started this thread!) and the role of consuming truckloads of sugar and flour in that as opposed to the role of meat consumption.
**Notice that I haven't accused you of "astroturfing" for for the PCRM or anything. I think it's possible for people to come to different conclusions than I do.
More...
No matter how large the issue, the story was indeed about a specific company. The story was NOT "about pink slime" and about all mechanically-separated meats killing people left and right. That's just not the case. Again, I'm not saying hot dogs are health food, but they don't all have the issues the story talks about.
When did I defend factory farming? You originally posted your "pink slime" photo in response to someone who simply said that meat could be healthy. That person didn't mention factory farming, mechanically-separated chicken, etc. You tried to equate the photo with the very idea of eating meat, and I just jumped in to point out that you, like most others using that photo, were trying to make meat-eating about feeling grossed out by that photo. Because, again, the fact that meat is finely ground is not in and of itself a problem, and ground meat DOES make more of the animal palatable, which is a good thing.
You seem to be implying that "the state of this country's health" is a direct result of meat consumption, even while kids across the country are drinking Powerade like water and eating huge portions of other sources of sugar and processed carbs. I just don't see people walking around eating meat like I do them eating/drinking simple carbs. I think it's reasonable to suggest that the bigger problem may be increasing rates of type II diabetes (what started this thread!) and the role of consuming truckloads of sugar and flour in that as opposed to the role of meat consumption.
**Notice that I haven't accused you of "astroturfing" for for the PCRM or anything. I think it's possible for people to come to different conclusions than I do.
61
@ 57, you've met me (well, via SLOG anyway). No, I'm not a vegetarian now, and haven't been for almost 9 years, but I was for 14 (including two as a vegan). I took no anti-depressants and saw no therapists during that time, or any other in my life.
That said, I probably wasn't entirely healthy as a vegan. I was underweight and at times fatigued. But not depressed, at least no more than I ever get.
@ 58, g is saying that the pink slime picture you posted is NOT the same thing as the fatty trimming ingredient highlighted in your article. Is that true or false?
The two of you may be getting hung up on technicalities, so let me see if I can sort it out. Industrialized meat means things like the pink slime and the fatty e.coli trimmings are being widely consumed, particularly in ground meat sold to major food distributors. I don't believe either of you are disputing that.
I think g believes you are speaking about ALL meat that is available, and is disputing that. If you are making that blanket statement, then g is right - traditionally and humanely raised cattle, who are traditionally and cleanly slaughtered and butchered, don't have that going on. You can get that by buying meat directly from producers, specialty butchers (check out their credentials), and restaurants who get their meat from those sources. (The only fast food chain I know of doing that, or at least claiming that, is Chipotle.) One doesn't have to avoid meat altogether, but one does need to avoid chain restaurants and grocery stores.
@ 59, stick with playground sand - a fresh 50 lb bag from the hardware store. It has been sanitized, so you know it's good.
That said, I probably wasn't entirely healthy as a vegan. I was underweight and at times fatigued. But not depressed, at least no more than I ever get.
@ 58, g is saying that the pink slime picture you posted is NOT the same thing as the fatty trimming ingredient highlighted in your article. Is that true or false?
The two of you may be getting hung up on technicalities, so let me see if I can sort it out. Industrialized meat means things like the pink slime and the fatty e.coli trimmings are being widely consumed, particularly in ground meat sold to major food distributors. I don't believe either of you are disputing that.
I think g believes you are speaking about ALL meat that is available, and is disputing that. If you are making that blanket statement, then g is right - traditionally and humanely raised cattle, who are traditionally and cleanly slaughtered and butchered, don't have that going on. You can get that by buying meat directly from producers, specialty butchers (check out their credentials), and restaurants who get their meat from those sources. (The only fast food chain I know of doing that, or at least claiming that, is Chipotle.) One doesn't have to avoid meat altogether, but one does need to avoid chain restaurants and grocery stores.
@ 59, stick with playground sand - a fresh 50 lb bag from the hardware store. It has been sanitized, so you know it's good.
62
@61, thanks for trying, and you might be right about technicalities. @60 is hung up on any straw he/she can find. So far, there's been nothing more than some lame techical arguments. There's plenty of books and articles about factory farming. I've posted links to examples, and all that has come from the other side is nonesense.
Stunning indictment of high-fructose corn syrup though. I was expecting a defense of corn sugar next. I didn't expect throwing other corporations under the bus to be in g's contract.
Stunning indictment of high-fructose corn syrup though. I was expecting a defense of corn sugar next. I didn't expect throwing other corporations under the bus to be in g's contract.
65
I think that as long as you get enough fat, protein and nutrition there's nothing wrong with going vegan. I grew up vegetarian, but am a meat-eater as an adult. But my philosophy is eat and let eat. What's right for me might not work for someone else.
66
There is a "defense" of factory farming. Kind of. It fed a whole bunch of people very efficiently. Most modern agriculture in America is technically factory farming. Not just meat production. Most vegans eat factory farmed food.
Before WWII almost all farming was close to what we'd now label organic. But at the end of the war they had all these mining systems and munitions factories geared to produce ammonium nitrate and they had world-wide famine due to infrastructure disruption. So the quickest way to get people fed and prevent millions of deaths was to go with factory farming methods.
And you know when the population of the planet was around 3 billion and the average planetary human life expectancy was around 40-60 years old factory farming was fine in terms of environmental impact.
But those days are gone. And factory farming, which saved the world, is going to kill it. We can sustainably farm again. We know how. And we'd better start.
The future HAS to be sustainable farming methods (paired with population and poverty controls). Which means consuming less and more expensive animal proteins. It's just going to be a fact of life.
That said: The emotional argument of "animal rights" is not very effective at converting people, nor is it particularly compelling. Superficially, maybe.
In terms of impact just living in a hugely wasteful over-populated technological civilization kills way more animals than just slaughtering them for food. It causes mass extinctions, in fact.
8 billion people having farms, roads, suburbs, dams, mines, factories, washing machines, electricity, and yes - computers - anything that harvests natural resources out of balance with what the environment can provide - probably kills more animals than all the pig farms in the world.
So we need systemic change. It's great people make personal choices that are more sustainable. That kind of trend-setting is valuable and helps us establish best practices. And it's better if we voluntarily move towards better way of eating and living rather than waiting until it's forced on us by circumstance.
Because that day when we won't have any choice IS fast approaching. And it's not going to be pretty.
More...
Before WWII almost all farming was close to what we'd now label organic. But at the end of the war they had all these mining systems and munitions factories geared to produce ammonium nitrate and they had world-wide famine due to infrastructure disruption. So the quickest way to get people fed and prevent millions of deaths was to go with factory farming methods.
And you know when the population of the planet was around 3 billion and the average planetary human life expectancy was around 40-60 years old factory farming was fine in terms of environmental impact.
But those days are gone. And factory farming, which saved the world, is going to kill it. We can sustainably farm again. We know how. And we'd better start.
The future HAS to be sustainable farming methods (paired with population and poverty controls). Which means consuming less and more expensive animal proteins. It's just going to be a fact of life.
That said: The emotional argument of "animal rights" is not very effective at converting people, nor is it particularly compelling. Superficially, maybe.
In terms of impact just living in a hugely wasteful over-populated technological civilization kills way more animals than just slaughtering them for food. It causes mass extinctions, in fact.
8 billion people having farms, roads, suburbs, dams, mines, factories, washing machines, electricity, and yes - computers - anything that harvests natural resources out of balance with what the environment can provide - probably kills more animals than all the pig farms in the world.
So we need systemic change. It's great people make personal choices that are more sustainable. That kind of trend-setting is valuable and helps us establish best practices. And it's better if we voluntarily move towards better way of eating and living rather than waiting until it's forced on us by circumstance.
Because that day when we won't have any choice IS fast approaching. And it's not going to be pretty.
67
I have been vegan for seven years, and in general feel much healthier than I did as an omnivore. I lost twenty pounds during my first year (I was borderline overweight before I was vegan, and am now at an appropriate weight for my height and age). I spend more time and energy planning and cooking meals with a variety of foods then I did before. Sometimes, it's a pain in the ass for myself and my friends and family, I get my blood tested every year to make sure that I have enough nutrients in my body, and I know it's annoying to eat out with other people. Eating healthy as a vegan is more expensive than eating semihealthy as a nonvegan. I try not to eat too much soy or processed foods. Sometimes, I feel like I don't have as much energy and am not as healthy as I would if I incorporated a little bit of meat in to my diet in addition to the organic vegetables and fruits and grains that I eat now.
At the end of the day, I am willing to take the energy and money and annoyingness and time of my diet because what I eat isn't just about me. It's about the environment and it's about the way our society treats animals and plants and it's about my body and what makes me healthy. I don't believe that there is a humane way to slaughter an animal. I guess it's better for animals to live slightly longer in captivity on an organic farm and be killed by the people that raised them than in factory farms, but both ways seem degrading and awful. I understand that humans were designed to eat animals as well as plants. The way that I see it, every time I eat a vegan meal, I'm saving an animal's life, and to me that seems worth the inconvenience of veganism.
When humans were really hunters and gatherers, eating animals made sense. Today, we no longer kill animals by killing them in their natural environments. We also have the abilities to create vegan healthy food. Many (not all) human bodies can live healthy as a vegan. So why don't we? And why is this issue so touchy for so many people?
Although I rarely say it aloud, it really upsets me when people make fun of my diet (which happens a lot). I am trying to do the right thing by the environment and by animals. When I think of someone treating either of my pets the way that they do animals on farms it makes me sick.
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At the end of the day, I am willing to take the energy and money and annoyingness and time of my diet because what I eat isn't just about me. It's about the environment and it's about the way our society treats animals and plants and it's about my body and what makes me healthy. I don't believe that there is a humane way to slaughter an animal. I guess it's better for animals to live slightly longer in captivity on an organic farm and be killed by the people that raised them than in factory farms, but both ways seem degrading and awful. I understand that humans were designed to eat animals as well as plants. The way that I see it, every time I eat a vegan meal, I'm saving an animal's life, and to me that seems worth the inconvenience of veganism.
When humans were really hunters and gatherers, eating animals made sense. Today, we no longer kill animals by killing them in their natural environments. We also have the abilities to create vegan healthy food. Many (not all) human bodies can live healthy as a vegan. So why don't we? And why is this issue so touchy for so many people?
Although I rarely say it aloud, it really upsets me when people make fun of my diet (which happens a lot). I am trying to do the right thing by the environment and by animals. When I think of someone treating either of my pets the way that they do animals on farms it makes me sick.
68
@67 -- Yeah, I hear ya. I've dabbled in veganism, but I'm an omnivore these days (though I really don't eat very much meat, and hardly any dairy). While I don't feel like I have the discipline to maintain a healthy, strictly vegan diet, I admire people who do and I don't understand why vegans get so much flack. I get that nobody wants to be preached at by a self-righteous vegan or anyone else, but it does seem pretty socially acceptable to mock vegans -- both preachy ones and those who keep to themselves -- about their kooky, hippy-dippy way of living. It's pretty silly.
69
It's a myth that factory farming is the way to feed the world. Chemical companies pertuate it. It's not sustainable, and that's why farmland is going to waste in huge droughts like the one Australia had recently. It's also resulting in pharmaceuticals in the water supply and huge pits of animal waste that no one has any idea what to do with.
70
Whoa!
I inspired a whole thread, and totally didn't notice it for two days!
Now I'm going to read all of these insightful comments! :D
Thank you Bethany Jean Clement!
I inspired a whole thread, and totally didn't notice it for two days!
Now I'm going to read all of these insightful comments! :D
Thank you Bethany Jean Clement!
71
I have to point out that small-scale animal agriculture is not necessarily any better in terms of animal health and welfare than large-scale animal agriculture. And "organic" labeled animal products are, because of the asinine way the certification regulations are written, generally detrimental to animal welfare.
As far as I'm concerned, the nightmare situation that I see all too often is a worst-of-both-worlds kind of thing where idealistic middle-class city people with an enthusiasm for gourmet foods and fetishized olden-days style farming become small-scale farmers and do terrible things to their livestock out of ignorance. It is tragic. We really need to move past this. Just because a friendly man with a beard or woman with braided hair sells you your eggs for $9 out of a stall at the farmers' market and calls them "free range", that doesn't mean that those people even necessarily know what humane treatment of livestock actually entails.
(Or, incidentally, that they know anything about rules for safe food production. This is a digression, but small-scale farmers with an ideological agenda seem less likely to know, for instance, which freely-available-at-the-feed-store drugs require that eggs be withdrawn from sale for the human food chain.)
As far as I'm concerned, the nightmare situation that I see all too often is a worst-of-both-worlds kind of thing where idealistic middle-class city people with an enthusiasm for gourmet foods and fetishized olden-days style farming become small-scale farmers and do terrible things to their livestock out of ignorance. It is tragic. We really need to move past this. Just because a friendly man with a beard or woman with braided hair sells you your eggs for $9 out of a stall at the farmers' market and calls them "free range", that doesn't mean that those people even necessarily know what humane treatment of livestock actually entails.
(Or, incidentally, that they know anything about rules for safe food production. This is a digression, but small-scale farmers with an ideological agenda seem less likely to know, for instance, which freely-available-at-the-feed-store drugs require that eggs be withdrawn from sale for the human food chain.)
72
Or should I say "inciteful comments"? (<--- Hahaha that's a funny joke!)
Well it's awesome to have such an active discussion here on the vegan option! (And just a tad disappointing to find the sniping and bitterness.)
True, my declaration was provocative, but I didn't intend it to be the title of a thread. I can understand that a statement that bold might prompt some defensiveness.
I don't think anyone can be shamed into making any significant lifestyle change, and that certainly isn't my intent.
But I do believe the more people learn about the overwhelming benefits of veganism (for ethics, health, and the environment) the more they will be motivated to make the change on their own. (I wonder how many of the vegan opponents actually read the Atlantic article.)
Like I mentioned, I've been vegan about 5 years now, epicureally satisfied, and feeling healthier every day. I invite each and every one of you to try a one-month vegan challenge! (Do it for the story, if nothing else!) Seattle is a great town to go vegan in!
Check out these movies while you're thinking about it:
Forks Over Knives
(please suspend your opinions on veganism until you've watched this movie)
http://movies.netflix.com/Movie/Forks-Ov…
Fast Food Nation
(not pro-vegan per se, but it actually motivated my initial month-long challenge)
http://movies.netflix.com/Movie/Fast-Foo…
Further reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_S…
http://www.nealbarnard.org/diabetes_book…
http://www.drfuhrman.com/default.aspx
P.S. @67
I went through a period where I felt somewhat lacking in energy, until I discovered B12 supplements and learned about their importance in a vegan diet.
At 7-years vegan you probably already know about B12, but if not, this site is required reading:
http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/dail…
P.P.S. http://veganbodybuilding.com/
More...
Well it's awesome to have such an active discussion here on the vegan option! (And just a tad disappointing to find the sniping and bitterness.)
True, my declaration was provocative, but I didn't intend it to be the title of a thread. I can understand that a statement that bold might prompt some defensiveness.
I don't think anyone can be shamed into making any significant lifestyle change, and that certainly isn't my intent.
But I do believe the more people learn about the overwhelming benefits of veganism (for ethics, health, and the environment) the more they will be motivated to make the change on their own. (I wonder how many of the vegan opponents actually read the Atlantic article.)
Like I mentioned, I've been vegan about 5 years now, epicureally satisfied, and feeling healthier every day. I invite each and every one of you to try a one-month vegan challenge! (Do it for the story, if nothing else!) Seattle is a great town to go vegan in!
Check out these movies while you're thinking about it:
Forks Over Knives
(please suspend your opinions on veganism until you've watched this movie)
http://movies.netflix.com/Movie/Forks-Ov…
Fast Food Nation
(not pro-vegan per se, but it actually motivated my initial month-long challenge)
http://movies.netflix.com/Movie/Fast-Foo…
Further reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_S…
http://www.nealbarnard.org/diabetes_book…
http://www.drfuhrman.com/default.aspx
P.S. @67
I went through a period where I felt somewhat lacking in energy, until I discovered B12 supplements and learned about their importance in a vegan diet.
At 7-years vegan you probably already know about B12, but if not, this site is required reading:
http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/dail…
P.P.S. http://veganbodybuilding.com/
73
@66
"There is a "defense" of factory farming. Kind of. It fed a whole bunch of people very efficiently."
I agree with most of what you said, but I take issue with the assertion that industrial agriculture is more efficient. While that may actually sound astounding on its face (after all, isn't more food being grown on the same amount of land, etc?), I think it's important to remember that the word 'efficient' has a very precise meaning and that it is a *rate*. Any complex process has multiple measures of efficiency. There is no doubt that modern farming has increased bushels per acre and is more land-efficient. However, these techniques require large amounts of pesticides and fertilizers which require lots of energy to create. I've heard the figure thrown around that each food calorie requires 10 calories of energy to produce. I've also heard folks say that local, organic techniques have a greater energy return on investment. Interestingly, for all the blogs and books written on this matter I've found it very hard to find information on this. If anybody has good info on this I'd be happy if you shared it with me.
"There is a "defense" of factory farming. Kind of. It fed a whole bunch of people very efficiently."
I agree with most of what you said, but I take issue with the assertion that industrial agriculture is more efficient. While that may actually sound astounding on its face (after all, isn't more food being grown on the same amount of land, etc?), I think it's important to remember that the word 'efficient' has a very precise meaning and that it is a *rate*. Any complex process has multiple measures of efficiency. There is no doubt that modern farming has increased bushels per acre and is more land-efficient. However, these techniques require large amounts of pesticides and fertilizers which require lots of energy to create. I've heard the figure thrown around that each food calorie requires 10 calories of energy to produce. I've also heard folks say that local, organic techniques have a greater energy return on investment. Interestingly, for all the blogs and books written on this matter I've found it very hard to find information on this. If anybody has good info on this I'd be happy if you shared it with me.
74
I became vegan 23 years ago and consider it one of the best decisions of my life!
Why would someone choose to be vegan? Here are two uplifting videos to help everyone understand why so many people are making this life affirming choice: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKr4HZ7uk… and http://www.veganvideo.org
Why would someone choose to be vegan? Here are two uplifting videos to help everyone understand why so many people are making this life affirming choice: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKr4HZ7uk… and http://www.veganvideo.org
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