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News & ArtsTuesday, January 17, 2012
Religion Also, too, Atheists, Adulterers, Jews
Posted by Dan Savage on Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 9:05 AM
As I've before, I get why people oppose abortion but really don't get see any semi-rational reason for spending your time trying to ruin the lives of gay and lesbian people. And, no, the religion reason is no reason, as "ruining the lives of gay and lesbian people" really isn't too near the top of the Jesus agenda.
Most people who spend time trying to ruin the lives of gay and lesbian people—some people spend all their time on it, a lucky few do it for a living—give the "religion reason" when pressed about their motives. Jesus, as Atrios points out, didn't seem to give two santorum squarts about the issue. But what strikes me as odd about Christian conservatives who insist that their faith requires them to do all they can to ruin the lives of gays and lesbians here on earth—you would think eternal damnation would be punishment enough—is the pass they're happy to give to all the other people out there whose lives they should be trying ruin. Why aren't they trying to ruin the lives of atheists, adulterers, and Jews? (It might be more accurate to ask, "Why aren't they trying to ruin the lives of Jews anymore?") We're not the only "sinners," after all, so how come we're the only ones who come in for this ruin-your-life shit these days?
1
If by "ruin" you mean "make second class citizens of them," yeah, they're not trying to ruin atheists, adulterers or Jews. I think Jews are safe, for the moment, but try being an out-and-proud atheist (or adulterer) anywhere outside of the protective bubble of a city center or college town.
2
While I can see the source of their opposition to homosexuality, I don’t understand their opposition to abortion.
The closest the Bible comes to discussing abortion is in Deuteronomy, I think, where it says that if a man causes a woman to fall and lose her pregnancy he owes her husband an amount of money which was less than what he’d owe were it an oxen he’d accidentally killed. The Christian “pro-life” movement is not Biblical.
The “gay-hate” movement is Biblical. But then so is slavery, blended fabrics, lalala, we all know the hypocrisy involved in the whole “gay-hate” thing.
The closest the Bible comes to discussing abortion is in Deuteronomy, I think, where it says that if a man causes a woman to fall and lose her pregnancy he owes her husband an amount of money which was less than what he’d owe were it an oxen he’d accidentally killed. The Christian “pro-life” movement is not Biblical.
The “gay-hate” movement is Biblical. But then so is slavery, blended fabrics, lalala, we all know the hypocrisy involved in the whole “gay-hate” thing.
4
If by "ruin" you mean "decline to change the definition of marriage to satisfy the Liberal whim of the moment" then who was RUINING the lives of homosexuals for the zillion years before xtianity was invented? and who has taken it upon themselves to RUIN the lives of homosexuals among the billions of people who live in cultures that never heard of xtianity?
cause no one no where has ever let homosexuals marry.
sorry, you pathetic little smear of shit, your life was RUINED long before.....
cause no one no where has ever let homosexuals marry.
sorry, you pathetic little smear of shit, your life was RUINED long before.....
6
Most modern christians aren't. Modern, or christian. They're the exact type of people that Jesus hated. But whatever, the nice thing about this situation is if these self-righteous bastards are right about God and Christ existing, they're actually totally fucked. It has kind of a beautiful symmetry to it that almost makes me wish I could believe in that sort of bullshit.
7
They are working so hard because at this time in human history Gay people are standing up for their rights as humans. That challenges the power structure. Women, African Americans here in the states, some religious minorities have all had their civil rights struggles. Now the Gay Civil Rights struggle is going full bore. That makes Gay humans an easy target.
8
Dan: the focus on gays 'cause of sex, duh (Which I know you know). We are a country conflicted about sex, gays = "deviant", blessing GLBTs w/ the sacrament of marriage (when all we're talking about is the legal status) = sanctifying filthy buttsex.
Although GLBT folks are at the forefront of the conservative ire, 'cause it generates quickie controversy, neither Jews nor atheists are getting a free ride now, either. Atheists aren't as loud or organized as the GLBT community & Jews vote, so they're not gonna catch much public ire.
Adulterers, HAH, they'd have to disqualify most all politicians from running for anything if they took ferreting out adultery seriously. *snort* Yeah right.
Although GLBT folks are at the forefront of the conservative ire, 'cause it generates quickie controversy, neither Jews nor atheists are getting a free ride now, either. Atheists aren't as loud or organized as the GLBT community & Jews vote, so they're not gonna catch much public ire.
Adulterers, HAH, they'd have to disqualify most all politicians from running for anything if they took ferreting out adultery seriously. *snort* Yeah right.
9
All human collectives instinctively blame some other political or cultural community for all they're problems. It's part of our ancestral tribal heritage and a vestigial remnant of animal territoriality. And the weaker the target the better as that makes the tribal alphas look successful and strong.
Sometimes somebody else really is to blame (as in the fascistic violent tendencies of extremist religionists). But usually not.
Most of the time it just means your community is avoiding the hard work of fixing the natural problems that always develop alongside civilization. The kind of hard work that requires people with competing interests to cooperate and alter The Way That Things Are Always Done. That's the kind of work that dominant alphas don't get the credit and often get usurped. So the resistance to fixing social problems is almost always violent and entrenched. Until the batch of alphas die.
So. Don't worry. Despite the propaganda these idiots won't live forever.
Sometimes somebody else really is to blame (as in the fascistic violent tendencies of extremist religionists). But usually not.
Most of the time it just means your community is avoiding the hard work of fixing the natural problems that always develop alongside civilization. The kind of hard work that requires people with competing interests to cooperate and alter The Way That Things Are Always Done. That's the kind of work that dominant alphas don't get the credit and often get usurped. So the resistance to fixing social problems is almost always violent and entrenched. Until the batch of alphas die.
So. Don't worry. Despite the propaganda these idiots won't live forever.
11
@2 -- You don't have to be religious to oppose abortion, and even though I'm pro-choice and an atheist, I can understand the pro-life perspective to some extent. I can't relate to anyone who wants to take away the happiness of people who are gay. Of all the things they could do to actually make the world a better place, they think marginalizing gay people will accomplish it? I don't get.
12
& speaking of atheists, a brief off-topic shout-out to awesome teen Jessica Ahlquist:
http://cranston.patch.com/articles/aclu-…
http://cranston.patch.com/articles/aclu-…
13
@7 I agree. Opposition to gay rights isn't just about the gays. It's about preserving a certain type of social hierarchy. That is why people who are against marriage equality are usually also against abortion, affirmative action, and amnesty for illegal aliens.
14
@6 "if these self-righteous bastards are right about God and Christ existing, they're actually totally fucked"
Yes! Sometimes when I think about Dick Cheney, Karl Rove, et al, I think, "I don't believe in Hell, but they do, and I totally believe they're going there."
(Because it's hard *not* to believe in Hell when there are some people who so obviously deserve to be there.)
Yes! Sometimes when I think about Dick Cheney, Karl Rove, et al, I think, "I don't believe in Hell, but they do, and I totally believe they're going there."
(Because it's hard *not* to believe in Hell when there are some people who so obviously deserve to be there.)
15
> so how come we're the only ones who come in for this ruin-your-life shit these days?
1. Cynical manipulation of the electorate by Karl Rove types. Homophobia used to be effective at the national level, thankfully not any longer -- but it's still there in select regional areas AND the Republican primaries which skew older white homophobes.
2. Ewwww factor.
Note: this is not innate, but for most people a function of what you've learned as a child. If you grow up seeing M-M, M-F, F-F being affectionate, two cute guys getting it on is either hot or at least no big deal (see young straight adults in urban areas) even if it doesn't lift your luggage.
But if you grow up hearing something is "disgusting" it takes a lot more work to overcome an "ewww" response. e.g. Look how many non-vegetarians who eat other mammals go nuts at people in China eating dog and cat meat. Or the outrage at a girl dressed indecently that leads to Ultra Orthdox Jews in Israel spitting on children (this week's NYT).
Richard Shweder, cultural anthropologist, refers to this as an Ethic of Divinity violation which elicits disgust, the strongest of emotional, irrational responses. Covered in Wikipedia under Moral Psychology. The "ewwww" is learned, hard to unlearn but possible, but few people in insular environments change. That's why religious indoctrination, religious schooling and home schooling is a big 21st century problem, keeps our next generation from being rational and empathetic.
Rove types know you can't achieve #1 without something that gets #2 out.
(do I get free HUMP tickets for an intelligent answer that deepens understanding AND contains an albeit strained reference to Santorum/feces?)
1. Cynical manipulation of the electorate by Karl Rove types. Homophobia used to be effective at the national level, thankfully not any longer -- but it's still there in select regional areas AND the Republican primaries which skew older white homophobes.
2. Ewwww factor.
Note: this is not innate, but for most people a function of what you've learned as a child. If you grow up seeing M-M, M-F, F-F being affectionate, two cute guys getting it on is either hot or at least no big deal (see young straight adults in urban areas) even if it doesn't lift your luggage.
But if you grow up hearing something is "disgusting" it takes a lot more work to overcome an "ewww" response. e.g. Look how many non-vegetarians who eat other mammals go nuts at people in China eating dog and cat meat. Or the outrage at a girl dressed indecently that leads to Ultra Orthdox Jews in Israel spitting on children (this week's NYT).
Richard Shweder, cultural anthropologist, refers to this as an Ethic of Divinity violation which elicits disgust, the strongest of emotional, irrational responses. Covered in Wikipedia under Moral Psychology. The "ewwww" is learned, hard to unlearn but possible, but few people in insular environments change. That's why religious indoctrination, religious schooling and home schooling is a big 21st century problem, keeps our next generation from being rational and empathetic.
Rove types know you can't achieve #1 without something that gets #2 out.
(do I get free HUMP tickets for an intelligent answer that deepens understanding AND contains an albeit strained reference to Santorum/feces?)
16
@11 I don’t think an anti-repro-rights stance has to be based on religion, but you’re more likely to find the Planned Parenthood picketers in a sanctuary on Sunday. And the argument most people use to oppose gay rights is religious, also. Their personal and social reasons will vary, sure, just read the theories posited here on this thread. But the largest organizational arguments against equal marriage rights and abortion are based on religion.
17
Hate of any sort coming from those who claim to believe in Christ...is NOT biblical...unless you don't give a rat's ass about context, translation or intent. Or what Jesus actually did with his life (ultimate sacrifice? total forgiveness in the face of horrible cruelty and betrayal? humble service... and acceptance of even the least desirable in society? anger with those claiming to be religiously superior and justified because they lived the Law the best?)
Besides my love for (and trust in) God and Christ comes from what I claim (yes, this is MY claim...no one has to believe me) is a personal and living relationship. And I didn't come to this from inside any particular church...though I do call my self a Christian..a gay one at that!.
You know what Christians should be doing? Washing feet. Literally or metaphorically. They be should be trying to love people. Don't hate the "sin"...fucking forget it. Sit down with a fellow child of God and listen...and talk...and share...and care for them. No matter what they believe or don't. No matter what they have done. No matter who they are.
Besides my love for (and trust in) God and Christ comes from what I claim (yes, this is MY claim...no one has to believe me) is a personal and living relationship. And I didn't come to this from inside any particular church...though I do call my self a Christian..a gay one at that!.
You know what Christians should be doing? Washing feet. Literally or metaphorically. They be should be trying to love people. Don't hate the "sin"...fucking forget it. Sit down with a fellow child of God and listen...and talk...and share...and care for them. No matter what they believe or don't. No matter what they have done. No matter who they are.
18
Simple. Jerks can still get away with giving gays a hard time. Anti-Semitism and racism have become synonymous with the basest forms of ignorance and there's still some time on the clock before homophobia gains the same status.
19
Christians are lead by the nose to oppose abortion so Republicans get their votes. Their thinking has been damaged by their silly fantasy god book. And don't kid yourself. They would gladly start killing all of the above.
20
As an agnostic married to a Reconstructionist Jew, I feel I am in a position to say that, yes, they are trying to ruin the lives of atheists and Jews. Adulterers do get a free pass, as long as their church/party dues are current, of course. (Offer does not apply to atheistic adulturers and Jewish aldulterers. Unless, of course, they are really good hypocrites who can pass for Christian.) Disclaimer: I have no first-hand experience in the adultry category.
21
It used to be that "preserving a certain type of social hierarchy" meant banning interracial marriage too. (Still does in many radical right wing christian groups)
22
Why do Republicans (and I'm lumping all Republicans together because even the few pro-equality Republicans are supping with the devil just by being members of the party) want to ruin the lives of gay people? I think, if presses, the largest contingent would be saying that the institutionalized homophobia is really about protecting the kids from joining the sullied ranks of the gays. Gay marriage is, in fact, an assault on their values -- it's the government making a good out of what they regard as a moral evil. And like the teaching of evolution in schools, gay marriage threatens to undermine the authority of ignorant parents and backward traditions. There's a grain of truth to the religious right's hysteria. If they lose DOMA then their kids are going to live in a society where being gay is okay, and if a parent is trying to save their child's soul, well, the government just made it harder. I despise the bigots; I think they're an ignorant lot unworthy of their unfortunate influence in American politics. But I understand the argument. If you take a person of faith at their word (pun intended), then the logic of the the anti-equality crowd is more sympathetic. The problem is that it's against both the letter and spirit of our laws and contrary to the sentiment of our great political heritage. A person of faith would be expected to put God before country. Fortunately, the Constitution trumps the Almighty when it comes to matters of law and legislation.
23
The underlying logic is something like differences are not acceptable. Its either you follow what I say religion is and follow it as I tell it to you and live your life within these parameters or you're next. Dan do you really think anyone is safe? LGBT is just the checklist item of the moment. There's plenty more hate left.
24
@22 Thanks for your comment. I just want to add one thing to it, to amplify it.
I'm a member of a denomination which finds a religious basis for the equality of all people, that believes we all have "that of God" within us, and hence must be treated with respect, and love. The Quakers of Brooklyn determined that they would witness the marriage ceremony to all couples equally, and began doing so, ten years before the State caught up to us and legalized same-sex marriage.
The State has no business paying attention to religion, you are correct. However, if they are going to pay attention, pay attention to us, and not those other guys!
By the way, the reason we have freedom of religion (the "establishment clause") has very little to do with making life more pleasant for Jews or atheists. It is primarily because, given power, one Christian denomination can't even be trusted to live alongside another Christian denomination without accusing them of heresy, torturing them and putting them to death. Look up the Boston Martyrs.
I'm a member of a denomination which finds a religious basis for the equality of all people, that believes we all have "that of God" within us, and hence must be treated with respect, and love. The Quakers of Brooklyn determined that they would witness the marriage ceremony to all couples equally, and began doing so, ten years before the State caught up to us and legalized same-sex marriage.
The State has no business paying attention to religion, you are correct. However, if they are going to pay attention, pay attention to us, and not those other guys!
By the way, the reason we have freedom of religion (the "establishment clause") has very little to do with making life more pleasant for Jews or atheists. It is primarily because, given power, one Christian denomination can't even be trusted to live alongside another Christian denomination without accusing them of heresy, torturing them and putting them to death. Look up the Boston Martyrs.
25
@24- "It is primarily because, given power, one Christian denomination can't even be trusted to live alongside another Christian denomination without accusing them of heresy, torturing them and putting them to death. Look up the Boston Martyrs."
Yep. If the Religious Right ever got to take over, you could expect an exceptionally ugly power struggle between the Evangelical Protestants, the Catholics, and the Mormons. And if the Protestants won, they'd have to duke it out between their many factions. It's a totalitarian mind-set, you can't have any deviations.
Yep. If the Religious Right ever got to take over, you could expect an exceptionally ugly power struggle between the Evangelical Protestants, the Catholics, and the Mormons. And if the Protestants won, they'd have to duke it out between their many factions. It's a totalitarian mind-set, you can't have any deviations.
26
@4 - It would appear that you haven't read much history if you think no civilization anywhere ever has allowed homosexuals to marry. Or should I rather suggest that the only history you've bothered to read was what supported your own views?
28
Because it's easier to target a small minority (gays) than the large majority (sinners). Did you really need to ask that question Dan?
29
Gays are pardon the expression "low hanging fruit." Gays are the last group that it's somewhat permissible to put under discrimination.
30
@27- Well aside from the recent Western European nations there's this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_ma…
31
I can attest that atheists and Jews come in for their share of discrimination. I teach Hebrew School and every year I have at least one child report being bullied for being Jewish. Of course, they have recourse, unlike many gay kids. But they are still bullied.
32
Why the hell are you letting the anti-abortion shit fly without arguing? I'm a straigh woman supporting gay rights. While gays will soon have equality, womens reproduction choices are being taken away. You better not abandon us once your side wins after we have supported you .
33
I do like pointing out to bigots that they should really be stoning me to death, slaughtering my livestock (well, my cat, I guess), burning my land, and salting the earth well before they go after the gays or birth control or abortions, based on Biblical weight given to and time spent discussing disbelief vs. any other issue. As always, I think religion is a convenient excuse/rationalization (not that it's particularly rational, but whatever) for bigotry that primarily maintains privilege. I don't doubt that people actually believe that both atheism and homosexuality are bad, but I think the different levels and forms of energy/activism devoted to issues based on very similar beliefs are all about the privilege.
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