Slog
News & ArtsThursday, January 12, 2012
Savage Love SL Letter of the Day: This One Made My Week
Posted by Dan Savage on Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 4:52 PM
In the late '90s I was 15 and the only out gay kid in my high-school in Silverdale, WA. I was lucky enough to be apart of a program run by the Kitsap County Health Department to create the first GLBTQ Youth Program in the area. In attendance was usually me, my boyfriend, and a rotating assortment of random lesbian girls. We decided to host a town hall meeting discussing harassment of GLBTQ youth in local schools. To help promote the event I called into your radio show that you had at the time on Sunday nights. The event was to be held at the Silverdale Community Center, on Silvedale Way, in Silverdale, WA. I remember you thinking that was funny. When I called in, you and the others on your show were talking about gay bathhouses and your dislike of them. Without realizing how old I was, you brought me on the air and asked me if i had been to a bathhouse. I told you no, I had never been to one, and you made me promise on the air that I would never go to a bathhouse.
To this day have never been to one.
It's a great story to tell at parties—that at 15 I promised Dan Savage that I would never step foot in a bath house—and everyone gets a kick out of it. I don't know if you remember me or not, Dan, but I just wanted to thank you for being a positive role model and for giving me and others permission to express our true selves. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Older Wiser Grateful
Thank you, OWG, and... gosh.
I don't usually run letters about how awesome I am—and modesty prompted me to cut an additional paragraph that detailed just how awesomely awesome I am—but I'm making an exception for OWG's letter on account of the bathhouse detail. My detractors accuse me of promoting the worst excesses of gay sex culture. That is has never been the case. So, like, suck on that, detractors.
As for you, OWG, thank you for writing, thank you for staying the hell out of bathhouses, and thank you for coming out in high school back in the '90s and working so hard to make things better for the LGBT kids in your school at the time and the ones who came up after you. You were and remain a role model and an inspiration.
3
I've never understood how Dan could be so in favour of swingers parties but so against gay bathhouses. I'm not all that keen on bathhouses myself, but at least they provide condoms and forbid drugs (and where fobidding doesn't always work, the rules still inhibit their use). Private sex parties, at least in the gay world, seem to revolve around meth and barebacking. So I don't get what difference it makes to Dan whether people are swinging in private or at a bathhouse.
4
At the risk of this being as lame as the average mention of Stranger editorial/advertising dissonance, may I point out the display ad currently next to this post:
STEAMWORKS CRAM SESSION: Every Tuesday & Wednesday night bring in your student ID & receive a free 90 day membership & $5 off any rental.
STEAMWORKS CRAM SESSION: Every Tuesday & Wednesday night bring in your student ID & receive a free 90 day membership & $5 off any rental.
6
@3; I've always perceived Dan's concerns about bath houses as the rampant annonymous sex with some truly risky dudes. If you wouldn't eat a ham sandwich that had been on the floor, why would you suck a dick that had been in three assholes?
Swinging doesn't have to be annonymous, and it doesn't have to be with risky people (although clearly it is riskier on average than some other venues).
And he's been explicit about gay guys having to have a higher standard of behavior to acheive the lower risk that comes more easily for straights. Of course HIV but a number of STIs are transmitted with greater efficacy anally than vaginally (yeah, yeah, most anal is being done by straights, but per person, gay guys do more), and that there are more screwed up gay guys because of society dumping on them.
I've never heard him recommend going to a swingers event and fucking anything with two legs. But rather to check it out, meet people, negiogate one's scene in advance, etc.
But I suppose you're comparing gay bath houses to gay, private swinger's parties. I haven't noticed the later come up much on SL. Mostly Dan's mentioning swinger's parties in the context of some straight guy or gal who looking to have some obscure kinky itch scratched by a willing partner. It's not fair, but straights and lesbians just don't have as much risk as gay guys.
Swinging doesn't have to be annonymous, and it doesn't have to be with risky people (although clearly it is riskier on average than some other venues).
And he's been explicit about gay guys having to have a higher standard of behavior to acheive the lower risk that comes more easily for straights. Of course HIV but a number of STIs are transmitted with greater efficacy anally than vaginally (yeah, yeah, most anal is being done by straights, but per person, gay guys do more), and that there are more screwed up gay guys because of society dumping on them.
I've never heard him recommend going to a swingers event and fucking anything with two legs. But rather to check it out, meet people, negiogate one's scene in advance, etc.
But I suppose you're comparing gay bath houses to gay, private swinger's parties. I haven't noticed the later come up much on SL. Mostly Dan's mentioning swinger's parties in the context of some straight guy or gal who looking to have some obscure kinky itch scratched by a willing partner. It's not fair, but straights and lesbians just don't have as much risk as gay guys.
7
@4: mostly the ads I see alongside Dan's column nowadays ask if I want to vote for Rick Santorum in 2012.
9
@5, my aging milestones:
Noting that the centerfolds are a decade younger than me when I remember (as a teenager) them being several year older.
Noting that, biologically, the centerfolds could be my children.
Checking out a cute woman and realizing she's half my age.
Still ahead for me:
Centerfolds that ARE the age of my children.
Any interest on my part in anyone 1/3 my age.
Noting that the centerfolds are a decade younger than me when I remember (as a teenager) them being several year older.
Noting that, biologically, the centerfolds could be my children.
Checking out a cute woman and realizing she's half my age.
Still ahead for me:
Centerfolds that ARE the age of my children.
Any interest on my part in anyone 1/3 my age.
10
"a rotating assortment of random lesbian girls"
Did this rub anyone else the wrong way? I'm willing to accept I'm reading it wrong, but... it seems rude. I'm sure they didn't think they were random when they were brave enough to come out in the early 90s.
Did this rub anyone else the wrong way? I'm willing to accept I'm reading it wrong, but... it seems rude. I'm sure they didn't think they were random when they were brave enough to come out in the early 90s.
11
@10 Nope, not me. Sexuality is always complicated, for everyone, and I'm not going to judge the actions of GLBT kids as they tried to navigate the very difficult, if not horrific, avenues towards maturity. I doubt OWG was perfect, and maybe the young ladies were looking for something else. Who knows?
13
@Dan: For you what's the difference between a gay bathhouse and a gay kink fetish party? Why are you down on the first and cook with the second?
You've said you're cool with the latter many times. Sex & shit happens at the latter, organized by a common kink. And the group scene is essential for some kinks. e.g. piss parties, having 10 hot dudes piss on me is something my partner and I can never just by ourselves. Also relatively safe.
Bathhouses: if used as just a place for some JO, not so different from a sex party. Some are clean (Europe, Asia). Some have quite safe sex (just mutual masturbation). Some have 100% safe sex (you JO while watching someone else). Some have let's get to know you first talk in the bright lights (Asia & Europe more than USA).
What's the problem? I agree US bathhouses are kind of gross (at least the couple I've tried before I gave up) but have pretty nice experiences in other countries and have NEVER seen unprotected anal happening. A benefit is that they're great for travelers who might not be around when a party is being held, and you don't have time to waste on Grindr or looking for a hookup in a bar, but you are horny.
You're also cool on using sex workers. Bathhouses are cheaper and sometimes they have hot guys.
You've said you're cool with the latter many times. Sex & shit happens at the latter, organized by a common kink. And the group scene is essential for some kinks. e.g. piss parties, having 10 hot dudes piss on me is something my partner and I can never just by ourselves. Also relatively safe.
Bathhouses: if used as just a place for some JO, not so different from a sex party. Some are clean (Europe, Asia). Some have quite safe sex (just mutual masturbation). Some have 100% safe sex (you JO while watching someone else). Some have let's get to know you first talk in the bright lights (Asia & Europe more than USA).
What's the problem? I agree US bathhouses are kind of gross (at least the couple I've tried before I gave up) but have pretty nice experiences in other countries and have NEVER seen unprotected anal happening. A benefit is that they're great for travelers who might not be around when a party is being held, and you don't have time to waste on Grindr or looking for a hookup in a bar, but you are horny.
You're also cool on using sex workers. Bathhouses are cheaper and sometimes they have hot guys.
14
@11 oh, I think you mis-read what I meant. I just didn't like that the LW was referring to them that way.
16
@10: Yep, me three. Lesbians are all fine and dandy for watching your dog while you jet off to Chicago for the weekend, but, well, they're just not very much fun.
17
@10, 11, et al., I think the LW meant that few to none of the young lesbians stuck with the youth group or showed the commitment to it that he and his boyfriend did.
What do you think he meant?
What do you think he meant?
18
I agree with @17, clashfan. I read the LW's comment about the lesbian girls as different girls may have attended from session to session, but there were no regular lesbian attendees to that group.
19
@10: Seriously? That kind of over-sensitivity turns everything it touches into shit.
FWIW - my friends and I used the term "randoms" to describe any person who made a brief appearance in our lives while bar-hopping, partying, attending a GLBTQABCFUCKOFF youth program, etc.
FWIW - my friends and I used the term "randoms" to describe any person who made a brief appearance in our lives while bar-hopping, partying, attending a GLBTQABCFUCKOFF youth program, etc.
20
Men have been having sex with each other in bathhouses for hundreds of years; it's as much a part of gay culture as drag shows, brunch, and the rainbow flag, and arguably has a longer and more global history than any of those things. I've never got why Dan's so down on it, the "ham sandwich" analogy notwithstanding.
21
Yep, @10, et al: nitpicking. I'm pretty sure in every Savage Love response/letter, and for that matter, every kickass book and speech and essay, I could find one little thing I don't like. Sometimes those things are even a tad insulting. But what am I going to do? Get annoyed about every little thing and not mention a word about the overwhelming awesomeness of that stuff?
You gotta see the forest through the trees here, and actually in everything if we have a shot at being supportive of those who generally have the same goals and beliefs as us.
You gotta see the forest through the trees here, and actually in everything if we have a shot at being supportive of those who generally have the same goals and beliefs as us.
22
For those defending bathhouses: in theory, they could be safe, i.e. if you restrict yourself to just j/o, and you find someone happy to do only that.
In practice, they're not so safe. Reality is, they're open late, often 24 hours. Seems to me that's a deliberate design to lure guys who are lonely and horny after the bars close. They're buzzed and not making the best decisions.
@8 - Much mirth. And me too; as Dan has observed, if there were straight bathhouses filled with naked women ready for sex, the line would be around a city block.
In practice, they're not so safe. Reality is, they're open late, often 24 hours. Seems to me that's a deliberate design to lure guys who are lonely and horny after the bars close. They're buzzed and not making the best decisions.
@8 - Much mirth. And me too; as Dan has observed, if there were straight bathhouses filled with naked women ready for sex, the line would be around a city block.
23
I do believe I said something similar upon our meeting last summer at Trouble with Raja. I again thank you for being a role model when I was a baby gay teen and the tender age of 14 growing up in Eastern Wa/Northern Idaho.
24
Dan has come down against private sex parties in the past. Not categorically, but as they tend to exist in gay culture. As I recall, it's the anonymity and general skeeziness, together with the common lack of safe sex practices, that motivate his dislike. That's not to say group sex and private parties can't be done right; he has lauded the way many swingers clubs go out of their way to insist on condoms and respect for everyone. Also, swingers typically get to know the other people over time. But that's not how Craigslist gay sex parties or bathhouses typically operate.
Advertisement
Most Commented on Slog
-
Hating People Doesn't Make Them Thinner by Jen Graves
-
Los Angeles Gay Bar Bans Bachelorette Parties Until Marriage Equality Is Attained by David Schmader
-
Fill in the Blank by Grant Brissey
-
This Reminds Me of the Great Calculator Scare of the Late '70s/Early '80s by David Schmader
-
Idiot Tries to Defend Bigoted Anti-Gay-Marriage Preacher on Anderson Cooper by Paul Constant
-
Six Moms with Too Much Time on Their Hands and a Shitty Website Decide to Fight Gay Superheroes by Paul Constant
-
What the Hell Is Wrong With Seattle's Pride Parade? by Dominic Holden
-
The Saturday Morning News by Unpaid Intern
-
Why Mayor McGinn's Wife Canceled Her Family's Seattle Times Subscription by Eli Sanders
-
The Sunday Morning News by Unpaid Intern
RSS
Facebook
Twitter
Comments (26) RSS