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News & ArtsTuesday, January 10, 2012
Savage Love SL Letter of the Day: Over To You, Gang
Posted by Dan Savage on Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 4:16 PM
I hope I get an answer from you, either on your column or just via e-mail. I don't have anyone I can talk to about this.
I have been married for ten years, I love my husband, he is a good man and I don't want to leave him. We almost never have sex, maybe twice a month if I'm lucky. I would prefer everyday. I have only been with two people in my life, both men, and I always wished I had met a nice girl, but that never happened when I was single.
Here is my question, is this sex deprived bi-curious woman a cheating piece of shit if she discretely dates another woman? My hope is to meet a nice woman, maybe another sex-deprived bi-curious wife like me, and have a "friend's with benefits" relationship.
So, am I a cheating piece of shit? Nothing has happened yet. I don't feel like its cheating. I have no desire to cheat on my husband with a man. I just want to explore myself and explore these feelings for women. I want something he can't give me, Dan, but I don't want to leave him or feel endlessly resentful about how little sex I'm able to have any longer.
Bi-Curious And Sex-Starved
My response after the jump...
··················
As much as I'd like to bang out my 4,452,989 response to an unhappily sex-starved spouse trapped in mixed-libido marriage, I'd much rather go watch primary returns roll in from New Hampshire. And by now everyone knows what I'm going to say to BCASS anyway (sing along with me!): "If you can negotiate a monogamish agreement with your husband, do that; if you can't do that for some reason, do what you need to do to stay married and stay sane; sometimes cheating is the least worst option; not all cheaters are CPOS," etc.
So I'm tossing this one out to SLLOTD readers: Got some advice/insight/comfort for BCASS? Please go easy on her, people, as we don't know all the particulars of her situation. We don't know whether she has kids or not, whether her husband is a reasonable person or a violent asswipe, or just how dependent she is on her husband. (Leaving because the sex sucks isn't an option for everybody.) So let's resist the urge to tear the lady new assholes, okay?
People who read the SLLOTD on the SLAP can click here to leave advice for BCASS.
1
I don't see why the standard response wouldn't apply here, based on this letter. She didn't tell us why she didn't want to ask her husband, though - I'd want more info there.
3
Spouses usually find out eventually and then you will have devastated this "good man." Negotiate with him. There's always the chance that he'd love to step out on occasion. Otherwise I vote CPOS.
4
Marriage is about love and loyalty and not just about gender-specific sex. It doesn't matter if the sex she's having is with a man or a woman; it matters whether she's violating her husband's trust by being intimate with another human being.
This woman should talk to her husband. Who knows? He might not know that she wants more sex than she's getting. He might think that having sex with a woman doesn't count (and his opinion must trump mine). He may be okay with her seeking sex outside of the marriage. In pipe-dream perfect world, he may be so turned on by the thought of his wife in girl-on-girl that it revs up his sex drive and everyone wins.
This woman should talk to her husband. Who knows? He might not know that she wants more sex than she's getting. He might think that having sex with a woman doesn't count (and his opinion must trump mine). He may be okay with her seeking sex outside of the marriage. In pipe-dream perfect world, he may be so turned on by the thought of his wife in girl-on-girl that it revs up his sex drive and everyone wins.
5
I asked my husband if I could see women on the side and he enthusiastically agreed. She has got to ask her spouse ASAP. Until that happens the advice is pretty much standard (and, frankly, useless).
6
I agree. For whatever reason, a lot of men are far happier to give a permission slip for their wife to see another woman than to see another man. Be sure to tell him that he has veto power, that you will abide by whatever rules you two hash out, and that you will disucss as much or as little of the experience with other women that he wants to discuss. Some men want all the details, some don't want any. Some want to watch. Some want to participate. Start by figuring out what he is comfortable with. Then figure out what you are comfortable with, and hash out an agreement. Let him know that you are not in a relationship now, and that this is something you feel you need to do to keep yourself happy in your marriage.
Good luck, send Dan pics and updates.
Good luck, send Dan pics and updates.
7
@2 While there are pretty basic cultural defaults for the rules, every couple overtly or otherwise negotiates it's own version. Similarly, if B-Cass both legitimately believes and is correct, that this would mitigate the infraction in her partners eyes, then it should adjust her overall shitness rating should she end up proceeding in violation of the couple's understanding of their agreement.
8
You know what is often left out of these types of letters, Dan? Any mention of how exciting their relationship is outside of sex. Are you doing any fun activities that you both find exciting outside the bedroom? Is your life outside of sex as boring as your sex life? Is foreplay eating TV dinners and talking about your cat? I'm not saying it is in this case, I just wish they would elaborate. Obviously, I am projecting here, because bed death for me always is preceded with feeling unexcited and bored with the relationship outside the bedroom. Was he at some point fucking you daily? Details details....
That said, everyone wants to cheat, I guess you have an excuse, so why not do it if you feel you are unfulfilled? Otherwise, it's not cheating if he knows. So let him know if you don't want to cheat. That's all I got.
That said, everyone wants to cheat, I guess you have an excuse, so why not do it if you feel you are unfulfilled? Otherwise, it's not cheating if he knows. So let him know if you don't want to cheat. That's all I got.
9
Most of the guys I've been with would have been over the moon if I told them I wanted to sleep with women on the side. Come to think of it, I could have fueled their fantasies for YEARS if I'd just told them that was what I was doing, even if I wasn't actually doing it.
10
If you haven't talked with your husband about your dissatisfaction, then you should take up a conversation with him about sex before you approach someone else (letters to Dan Savage excepted).
11
Of course you're not a CPOS; you're missing the first capital letter qualifier: cheating! As of yet, you're just a horny and fantasizing spouse, which puts you in a boat with about agazillion others.
Open dialogue is always my first suggestion. You should tell the hubby what's on your mind regarding this situation, and explain that you have needs to be met. A supportive husband will at least be understanding of this, and one who is secure with himself and your marriage may be okay with you making a new female FWB. If he isn't okay with this and will not budge, you find yourself with a decision to make: stay and be faithful or divorce and explore your interest in women. I know that would be an incredibly tough decision to make, but if you do love your husband and the relationship is otherwise good, cheating shouldn't be an option.
Open dialogue is always my first suggestion. You should tell the hubby what's on your mind regarding this situation, and explain that you have needs to be met. A supportive husband will at least be understanding of this, and one who is secure with himself and your marriage may be okay with you making a new female FWB. If he isn't okay with this and will not budge, you find yourself with a decision to make: stay and be faithful or divorce and explore your interest in women. I know that would be an incredibly tough decision to make, but if you do love your husband and the relationship is otherwise good, cheating shouldn't be an option.
12
Has Dan changed his mind, or am I misremembering his earlier position? I thought people who didn't tell their spouses were generally CPOS, unless they had persuasive reasons why divorce was unthinkable (disabled kid, dying spouse, etc.)
Now Dan seems to be saying that if your spouse would leave you over this (or if you merely fear your spouse might leave), it's okay to lie. Maybe this is because of the terrible economy, or maybe that was always Dan's position and I'm the one who misunderstood.
Anyway, I disagree. BCASS can't count on her girlfriend's husband being faithful. So any diseases he catches, are likely to get passed along to BCASS' unsuspecting husband. And then their marriage will be over.
My advice:
1) start by raising the idea hypothetically ("I heard people on the bus talking about this; what do you think?")
2) if that doesn't go well, try raising the idea of a MFF threesome.
3) if you can't bring yourself to talk about it (or if he hates the idea), try to play with someone while minimizing your chances of catching something (condoms on toys, avoiding bare genital-on-genital or mouth-on-genital action). Ask potential partners to get tested for herpes as well as the more standard STIs.
4) and consider telling your husband you want to use condoms for bc now.
Now Dan seems to be saying that if your spouse would leave you over this (or if you merely fear your spouse might leave), it's okay to lie. Maybe this is because of the terrible economy, or maybe that was always Dan's position and I'm the one who misunderstood.
Anyway, I disagree. BCASS can't count on her girlfriend's husband being faithful. So any diseases he catches, are likely to get passed along to BCASS' unsuspecting husband. And then their marriage will be over.
My advice:
1) start by raising the idea hypothetically ("I heard people on the bus talking about this; what do you think?")
2) if that doesn't go well, try raising the idea of a MFF threesome.
3) if you can't bring yourself to talk about it (or if he hates the idea), try to play with someone while minimizing your chances of catching something (condoms on toys, avoiding bare genital-on-genital or mouth-on-genital action). Ask potential partners to get tested for herpes as well as the more standard STIs.
4) and consider telling your husband you want to use condoms for bc now.
13
If he's a good man, you should be able to talk to him. If you love him, you WILL talk to him before going outside the marriage.
If he's a good man that loves you, you should be able to reach some understanding that will work better than what you have now. (It might not be exactly the thing you want, but it should be something.)
If there is a legitimate reason to not even attempt negotiating (i.e., you honestly fear emotional or physical violence) then he's not that good. In which case, you'd be justified in cheating to stay sane, but better served by leaving.
So to summarize: if you (really) can't talk to him, he's the POS. If you WON'T talk to him, you are.
If he's a good man that loves you, you should be able to reach some understanding that will work better than what you have now. (It might not be exactly the thing you want, but it should be something.)
If there is a legitimate reason to not even attempt negotiating (i.e., you honestly fear emotional or physical violence) then he's not that good. In which case, you'd be justified in cheating to stay sane, but better served by leaving.
So to summarize: if you (really) can't talk to him, he's the POS. If you WON'T talk to him, you are.
14
@*: I was going to say something along those lines, when I found myself going a little deeper with the whole thing and it surprised me. I think it is a reaction to the "monogomish" posts this week.
I don't think there is much integrity in being the kind of person to act on every itch. This is a good man and a good relationship, right? You love him. You would like more frequent orgasms, and maybe some more more excitement in the sex department. You want it all, even if it means that you don't get it all from one person.
I don't know. There is something I can't shake about the "monogomish" posts - something about a "well, I want this kind of sex, it isn't happening at home, everything else is great, but I want what I want and deserve it" kind of entitlement.
And hey - maybe you do deserve it, and it certainly isn't any of my business what kind of arrangement you work out with your partner. I'm not harmed in that transaction. But if these letters are being tossed out there for judgment, here is mine. I think there is something entitled, selfish, and demanding about expecting one person to fulfill every one of your needs, and feeling entitled to look elsewhere if you aren't 100% fulfilled.
Monogamy is a tradeoff. Period. If you desperately want to fuck someone else because you need to feel desired/thrilled/etc, and you are willing to ask to break your pledge of monogamy so you can satisfy that itch - fuck, I don't know. I'm glad you are someone else's problem, I guess.
I don't think there is much integrity in being the kind of person to act on every itch. This is a good man and a good relationship, right? You love him. You would like more frequent orgasms, and maybe some more more excitement in the sex department. You want it all, even if it means that you don't get it all from one person.
I don't know. There is something I can't shake about the "monogomish" posts - something about a "well, I want this kind of sex, it isn't happening at home, everything else is great, but I want what I want and deserve it" kind of entitlement.
And hey - maybe you do deserve it, and it certainly isn't any of my business what kind of arrangement you work out with your partner. I'm not harmed in that transaction. But if these letters are being tossed out there for judgment, here is mine. I think there is something entitled, selfish, and demanding about expecting one person to fulfill every one of your needs, and feeling entitled to look elsewhere if you aren't 100% fulfilled.
Monogamy is a tradeoff. Period. If you desperately want to fuck someone else because you need to feel desired/thrilled/etc, and you are willing to ask to break your pledge of monogamy so you can satisfy that itch - fuck, I don't know. I'm glad you are someone else's problem, I guess.
15
I'm sorry...I mean that if you won't talk to him before actually cheating then you are [the POS]. If you decide to simply bottle it up and live with it because you think it will cost your marriage, you're not a POS.
Good luck.
Good luck.
16
First question: Have you talked to your husband about how sex-starved you feel? If not, why not? Is it possible that he is cluelessly thinking that you are the one who isn't interested in him anymore, and he thinks he's being tolerant and forgiving of you? This is important because if he feels like you were the one who lost interest in him, springing a sudden high-temperature desire for others on him will be salt in the wound.
If yes, why haven't things improved? Any guesses there? Do you feel like you have done your due diligence to make things work with him before looking elsewhere to get your needs met?
Second question: Imagine having had the conversation(s) and other relationship work necessary to get the frequency of sex within the confines of marriage up somewhere near where you would like it to be. What then? Would you still be so hot for women if you were getting somewhere near your once-a-day with him? (I realize this is hard to answer while still stuck in the present, but give it your best thought-experiment due consideration.)
Answers to your questions:
-- You aren't a cheating piece of shit YET. Of course not, you haven't actually done anything
-- You WILL be a cheating piece of shit if you go ahead without having done your due diligence.
-- You will still be a cheater even after having done your due diligence, just maybe not a CPOS.
-- Cheating with another woman is just as much cheating as cheating with another man is. Being the same sex as your fuck-buddy does not amount to a get-out-of-jail-free card. The defining characteristic of cheating is if it is outside of your existing agreements, would hurt him if he found out, and you do it anyway.
-- Ultimately the only thing that matters is how he reacts, once he finds out. You can try to convince him of a fair-or-foul referee call based on any number of advice columnists that you want, but if he feels devastated and betrayed, and dumps you, that is his prerogative. Consider whether that is a risk you want to undertake.
More...
If yes, why haven't things improved? Any guesses there? Do you feel like you have done your due diligence to make things work with him before looking elsewhere to get your needs met?
Second question: Imagine having had the conversation(s) and other relationship work necessary to get the frequency of sex within the confines of marriage up somewhere near where you would like it to be. What then? Would you still be so hot for women if you were getting somewhere near your once-a-day with him? (I realize this is hard to answer while still stuck in the present, but give it your best thought-experiment due consideration.)
Answers to your questions:
-- You aren't a cheating piece of shit YET. Of course not, you haven't actually done anything
-- You WILL be a cheating piece of shit if you go ahead without having done your due diligence.
-- You will still be a cheater even after having done your due diligence, just maybe not a CPOS.
-- Cheating with another woman is just as much cheating as cheating with another man is. Being the same sex as your fuck-buddy does not amount to a get-out-of-jail-free card. The defining characteristic of cheating is if it is outside of your existing agreements, would hurt him if he found out, and you do it anyway.
-- Ultimately the only thing that matters is how he reacts, once he finds out. You can try to convince him of a fair-or-foul referee call based on any number of advice columnists that you want, but if he feels devastated and betrayed, and dumps you, that is his prerogative. Consider whether that is a risk you want to undertake.
17
@12: I thought people who didn't tell their spouses were generally CPOS, unless they had persuasive reasons why divorce was unthinkable
I recall Dan saying this as well, although I get the impression that when it comes applying the CPOS label to anyone who is sexually neglected by their spouses, his heart really isn't in it.
Neither is mine. In my view, if anyone is a "piece of shit", it's the spouse that sexually neglects his/her partner and threatens to leave if they seek satisfaction elsewhere.
It's interesting that everyone get's so focused on the cheater in these scenarios while completely ignoring the partner who willfully neglects their partner's mental and physical well being. I think a more sex-positive culture would shift the focus of responsibility to the neglectful spouse.
I recall Dan saying this as well, although I get the impression that when it comes applying the CPOS label to anyone who is sexually neglected by their spouses, his heart really isn't in it.
Neither is mine. In my view, if anyone is a "piece of shit", it's the spouse that sexually neglects his/her partner and threatens to leave if they seek satisfaction elsewhere.
It's interesting that everyone get's so focused on the cheater in these scenarios while completely ignoring the partner who willfully neglects their partner's mental and physical well being. I think a more sex-positive culture would shift the focus of responsibility to the neglectful spouse.
18
Talk to your husband. If he won't budge on this issue, maybe you're justified in cheating on him. I don't know if I could deal with lying to my husband about an affair or leading a double life, but if those are happier options for you than your current situation, maybe it's worth it.
19
@9 - I was also under the same assumption. If Mrs. Horton wanted to have an all-female affair? Happythankyoumoreplease.....
20
Talk things out with your husband, BCASS. More than likely he'll be willing to allow you to have your adventures. Speaking as a straight guy dating a bi girl, straight guys are for some reason wired to find it hot for two girls to get it on. Especially if one of them is one we get to fuck. Sad but true, men are pigs, film at 11.
Apart from the possibility that his libido could reawaken, emphasize that your flings would be on his terms as well as yours. Offer to let him know or tell him nothing, as he prefers. (If the former, make sure to clear this kiss-and-tell in advance with your lady friend.) If he feels particularly unsure about the idea, introducing him to your girlfriend before getting past first base might assuage his fears, rather than leaving her some scary nebulous entity in his eyes.
The key, of course, is communication. Talk to him about why you and he don't get it on so often, talk to him about the possibility of you having a girlfriend, and maybe talk to a sex counselor about mediating your libido with his.
P.S. You mean "discreet", not "discrete". You and he are discrete people, with separate bodies, personalities, and drives, but you should still be discreet about any affair you might have so as not to upset him.
Apart from the possibility that his libido could reawaken, emphasize that your flings would be on his terms as well as yours. Offer to let him know or tell him nothing, as he prefers. (If the former, make sure to clear this kiss-and-tell in advance with your lady friend.) If he feels particularly unsure about the idea, introducing him to your girlfriend before getting past first base might assuage his fears, rather than leaving her some scary nebulous entity in his eyes.
The key, of course, is communication. Talk to him about why you and he don't get it on so often, talk to him about the possibility of you having a girlfriend, and maybe talk to a sex counselor about mediating your libido with his.
P.S. You mean "discreet", not "discrete". You and he are discrete people, with separate bodies, personalities, and drives, but you should still be discreet about any affair you might have so as not to upset him.
21
My immediate response is "What kind of a fuck-up do you have to be to know who Dan Savage is, read his column, and write in to him with this problem, without having just asked your husband about giving you permission to sleep with women first?"
I mean, goddamn.
I mean, goddamn.
22
Wait, wait, wait. Where the @#$% is all the "advice" (scolding, really) to her saying it is her job to get her hubby in the mood? Where the @#$% is all the "you need to give him massages. You need to take more responsibility for the kids. You need to help with chores. Then he may be in the mood to have sex with you, after you step up. This is your job to address his low libido." Etc. Etc.
Seriously, people like that EricaP are always going on and on about how guys with low libido wives need to go to therapy, make with the "choreplay", have romantic weekends away, not pressure for sex, etc., etc., to resolve a wife's low libido.
But now a guy has low libido and it is all "Hell, I bet he wants some of that third party swing fest too! Get started on that agenda!" Not one of the usual suspects is talking about how that hard-working, low libido spouse just needs more TLC and romance to get him going.
I call sexist bullshit on you people--you know who you are--unless you care to revise and amend earlier advice to men dealing with low libido spouses. Sauce for ganders is sauce for geese. (Or something like that. I can never keep the plurals straight for those damn fowl.)
Seriously, people like that EricaP are always going on and on about how guys with low libido wives need to go to therapy, make with the "choreplay", have romantic weekends away, not pressure for sex, etc., etc., to resolve a wife's low libido.
But now a guy has low libido and it is all "Hell, I bet he wants some of that third party swing fest too! Get started on that agenda!" Not one of the usual suspects is talking about how that hard-working, low libido spouse just needs more TLC and romance to get him going.
I call sexist bullshit on you people--you know who you are--unless you care to revise and amend earlier advice to men dealing with low libido spouses. Sauce for ganders is sauce for geese. (Or something like that. I can never keep the plurals straight for those damn fowl.)
23
Speaking as a bi woman myself, it bothers me when I see people (usually women) implying that having a relationship with the same sex doesn't "count" as cheating. It reinforces the deleterious idea that same-sex relationships or anything other than penis-in-vagina sex is "less-than" or is not "real". It diminishes all of us.
So, to the writer of the letter: Yes, if you have a sexual relationship with another person without your husband's knowledge or consent, that is cheating. Either talk it over with him and come to an arrangement that works for both of you, or leave him so that both of you can pursue other relationships which will meet your needs.
So, to the writer of the letter: Yes, if you have a sexual relationship with another person without your husband's knowledge or consent, that is cheating. Either talk it over with him and come to an arrangement that works for both of you, or leave him so that both of you can pursue other relationships which will meet your needs.
24
@22, Good advice. Except that she seems to want sex with a girl, not more PIV fucking. I think the talk about being 'sex-deprived', here, is just to win Dan over to her side.
But, if I'm wrong, and she'd really be happiest just getting nailed by her husband once a day, then, yes, the usual advice applies: make sure your husband knows how much sex you want, get his testosterone levels checked, try changing up the time of day you have sex if he's too tired at night, see if you're allowed to jump on his morning wood and get yourself off that way.
In general, I'll admit I often wonder if the wife isn't orgasming from sex, and I encourage people to figure out what she likes in bed. With a guy, the issue seems different; if he doesn't seem interested in sex (even when you're having sex), then maybe he should talk to a therapist to figure out what he does like in bed. (Men?)
But don't label me with the "choreplay" term or with telling people to take the pressure off. I'm right there with you, that clear communication is a lot more effective than passive aggression (Like: "I'm doing these chores to buy sexy time", or "look at me, not demanding sex, being so good!") And fixing problems early is a lot more effective than going without sex for months and months until there's a huge amount of built-up resentment.
But, if I'm wrong, and she'd really be happiest just getting nailed by her husband once a day, then, yes, the usual advice applies: make sure your husband knows how much sex you want, get his testosterone levels checked, try changing up the time of day you have sex if he's too tired at night, see if you're allowed to jump on his morning wood and get yourself off that way.
In general, I'll admit I often wonder if the wife isn't orgasming from sex, and I encourage people to figure out what she likes in bed. With a guy, the issue seems different; if he doesn't seem interested in sex (even when you're having sex), then maybe he should talk to a therapist to figure out what he does like in bed. (Men?)
But don't label me with the "choreplay" term or with telling people to take the pressure off. I'm right there with you, that clear communication is a lot more effective than passive aggression (Like: "I'm doing these chores to buy sexy time", or "look at me, not demanding sex, being so good!") And fixing problems early is a lot more effective than going without sex for months and months until there's a huge amount of built-up resentment.
25
I had a friend from high school who was adamant that her girl flings were not cheating, as there was no dick involved. Both her husband and her girl fling's husband felt quite a bit differently about it when the 2 women left town for good together. As @23 says, a sexual relationship outside of the relationship with the spouse or significant other without the agreement of the other party counts as 'cheating'. Personally, I'm getting a little sick of the word cheating. I see it more as a violation of the contract between the 2 parties in the relationship.
However, to Seander's point @17, part of that selfsame contract between the 2 parties in the relationship is to provide for each others needs-- emotional, physical, sexual. Not doing so is also in violation of that contract. Do the 2 violations cancel each other out? No. But it's no more OK to simply dismiss the other party's sexual needs than it is to start fucking everything in sight. But I do have to say that by villifying the person who strays in this sort of a situation, we reinforce the idea that sexual outlet is a want rather than a legitimate need.
However, to Seander's point @17, part of that selfsame contract between the 2 parties in the relationship is to provide for each others needs-- emotional, physical, sexual. Not doing so is also in violation of that contract. Do the 2 violations cancel each other out? No. But it's no more OK to simply dismiss the other party's sexual needs than it is to start fucking everything in sight. But I do have to say that by villifying the person who strays in this sort of a situation, we reinforce the idea that sexual outlet is a want rather than a legitimate need.
26
Erica, please explain choreplay to me. I haven't heard that one before.
I am honestly trying to do schoolwork, but I am learning so much more here!
I am honestly trying to do schoolwork, but I am learning so much more here!
27
@23, i think the reason it "counts" or not depends on whether there's risk of it turning into more than just a fling. it's not that the sex itself isn't valid. i know that i can be sexually attracted to and sexual with women, and that comes as nothing but good news to my husband. he and i both know that a romantic (read: threatening) relationship would never blossom from it. not true in all cases, certainly. but true for those who would say "it doesn't really count." the sex is real, for sure. but without the same potential impact on an existing relationship as sex with someone you might fall in love with.
28
It's not unheard of for two closeted people to marry each other. He's not doing her because he's not into girls and she doesn't ask him to up his game because she'd rather be eating pussy.
If either of them aren't straight just pull trigger and separate before one of those once-a-month PIVs results in procreation.
But if he's really straight and she's close to straight, then, yes, @4 and @23, cheating with a woman is full-on cheating.
Lesbians are all hot and exciting in porn, but if you're the hairy biped in the corner being ignored by the lesbians in bed, it ain't so hot.
If you don't have in you to be a loving, romantic spouse to the kind of guy he is, leave. Then fool around. In that order.
If you want him mostly the way he is and just need more sex, tell me. "I want more sex. I need you to up your game." Then go from there, from his reaction.
And if the marriage so gosh-darn wonderful without enough sex AND he won't give you more AND you've put him on notice, ONLY THEN fool around discretely.
If either of them aren't straight just pull trigger and separate before one of those once-a-month PIVs results in procreation.
But if he's really straight and she's close to straight, then, yes, @4 and @23, cheating with a woman is full-on cheating.
Lesbians are all hot and exciting in porn, but if you're the hairy biped in the corner being ignored by the lesbians in bed, it ain't so hot.
If you don't have in you to be a loving, romantic spouse to the kind of guy he is, leave. Then fool around. In that order.
If you want him mostly the way he is and just need more sex, tell me. "I want more sex. I need you to up your game." Then go from there, from his reaction.
And if the marriage so gosh-darn wonderful without enough sex AND he won't give you more AND you've put him on notice, ONLY THEN fool around discretely.
29
Consider how you will feel if you go behind his back. You'd be able to get your needs met, but this would come at the cost of guilty feelings. It seems that the dishonesty required to cheat is what actually causes the bad feelings, not the sex and intimacy itself, regardless of the gender of who you cheat with. By depriving you of the sex you require, he's not quite holding up his end of the marriage, and by bringing this to his attention you give him both the opportunity to remedy the situation and to prepare himself for the inevitability that you will get those needs net elsewhere and/or end the relationship.
30
also, discrete vs. discreet, for our letter writer and @28:
http://www.alphadictionary.com/goodword/…
http://www.alphadictionary.com/goodword/…
31
@26, choreplay is getting more housework done so that your SO doesn't feel overwhelmed by it all, and is thus more willing to have sex with you.
I think this has its roots in the 'Men Are from Mars/Women Are from Venus' schtick. Using the stereotypes very broadly, if a woman does not feel that her man is a full partner in the home, she doesn't feel supported, and she is less likely to feel lovey-dovey toward him. Obviously, this is problematic on a number of levels. Women like sex, too. Men also like a tidy home and environs.
However, as with many such beliefs and attitudes, there is a grain of truth there. If your partner is not meeting your sexual needs, it's worth checking to ensure that their other needs are being met.
I think this has its roots in the 'Men Are from Mars/Women Are from Venus' schtick. Using the stereotypes very broadly, if a woman does not feel that her man is a full partner in the home, she doesn't feel supported, and she is less likely to feel lovey-dovey toward him. Obviously, this is problematic on a number of levels. Women like sex, too. Men also like a tidy home and environs.
However, as with many such beliefs and attitudes, there is a grain of truth there. If your partner is not meeting your sexual needs, it's worth checking to ensure that their other needs are being met.
32
@31, thank you for explaining that. While I have all of the girl parts, I don't seem to be a woman under those guidelines. Sex and household work are absolutely unrelated in my book. Sex and a big fight are not mutually exclusive events. Sex is sex, and the rest of it is, well, the rest of it.
33
"I don't have anyone I can talk to about this."
Except your partner. And a bunch of Slog commenters. Let's see... who should you start with?
Except your partner. And a bunch of Slog commenters. Let's see... who should you start with?
34
Nth for just asking the husband. I have pre-approval for fooling around with a woman. *sigh* Except for me it's like the ol' hubby who gives his wife a power saw for X-mas. "Gee thanks honey that's really generous of you." Haha
35
She could just get pregnant and have a kid. That tends to zaps many women's libido for quite awhile, sometimes permanently. Hey this problem solving stuff is easy, wait..forgot...now you have a kid to deal with...hmm...get pregnant again?
36
ask for more sex from your hubby. like now.
if he doesnt deliver, you're free to try 1 or 2 flings with a woman. hey , you may not like it. so then you can move on to plan b.
if you like it, then have the conversation.
also, is there any chance your husband is getting his action somewhere else? wheres his libido gone? did you two used to have sex more frequently?
you agreed to be married, not to be celebate. have at it and be careful!
if he doesnt deliver, you're free to try 1 or 2 flings with a woman. hey , you may not like it. so then you can move on to plan b.
if you like it, then have the conversation.
also, is there any chance your husband is getting his action somewhere else? wheres his libido gone? did you two used to have sex more frequently?
you agreed to be married, not to be celebate. have at it and be careful!
37
BCASS, it's your life, use your own judgement. It seems like most people believe they have the right to judge others for what they do within their relationships, but luckily we're not living in the time of the Puritans, nor under Sharia law, so you are free to do as you see fit.
I know what it's like to live for years and years with a sexually rejecting husband; people who haven't lived it are unlikely to understand. Best of luck to you and yours.
I know what it's like to live for years and years with a sexually rejecting husband; people who haven't lived it are unlikely to understand. Best of luck to you and yours.
38
@31, thanks for explaining the concept.
@32, I think research (done by frustrated husbands) shows that many women are like you. If women want sex with their spouse, they want it regardless of whether the dishes are done. Conversely, women who blame the undone dishes for their lack of interest in sex would react to their spouse doing the dishes by blaming the unswept floors or the unscrubbed toilets instead.
Sharing housework can be a bonding experience, just like biking or hiking together. But it won't in and of itself change someone who isn't interested in sex. That's a different question.
@32, I think research (done by frustrated husbands) shows that many women are like you. If women want sex with their spouse, they want it regardless of whether the dishes are done. Conversely, women who blame the undone dishes for their lack of interest in sex would react to their spouse doing the dishes by blaming the unswept floors or the unscrubbed toilets instead.
Sharing housework can be a bonding experience, just like biking or hiking together. But it won't in and of itself change someone who isn't interested in sex. That's a different question.
39
Here's a script for you: "Honey, I'm curious about what it would be like for me to be with a woman." And then see what he says. "I'm desperate to cheat on you because you're not satisfying me sexually" is probably not a good option at this point. Try the first option.
40
@32: I don't seem to be a woman under those guidelines
No, you sure don't.
FYI - "choreplay" is more than making sure your wife isn't overwhelmed. For some ladies, seeing their husband of 10-20 years folding laundry is the closest thing they'll experience to being "turned on" by him, even if he spends a lot of time at the gym, has a nice cock, and is sexy enough that other women tell him so. And I don't think it's the "omg I want his cock in me now" kind of turned on, but more of a "I want to reward him for being so thoughtful and attentive" kind of turned on.
Sex and a big fight are not mutually exclusive events.
If you ask me, every fight should end with a good fuck, preferably before either party has had a chance to cool down.
No, you sure don't.
FYI - "choreplay" is more than making sure your wife isn't overwhelmed. For some ladies, seeing their husband of 10-20 years folding laundry is the closest thing they'll experience to being "turned on" by him, even if he spends a lot of time at the gym, has a nice cock, and is sexy enough that other women tell him so. And I don't think it's the "omg I want his cock in me now" kind of turned on, but more of a "I want to reward him for being so thoughtful and attentive" kind of turned on.
Sex and a big fight are not mutually exclusive events.
If you ask me, every fight should end with a good fuck, preferably before either party has had a chance to cool down.
41
@40 "I want to reward him for being so thoughtful and attentive" kind of turned on.
I don't think that's what "turned on" means.
I don't think that's what "turned on" means.
42
@41: I don't think that's what "turned on" means.
That's because you're from Mars. Venus is a whole different world.
That's because you're from Mars. Venus is a whole different world.
43
@23: I understand where you're coming from. Let me explain my view on it.
I'm okay with my girlfriend having relationships with other girls but not other guys. If she wants to have a sexual relationship with a girl, that's a need that I am physically incapable of providing. If she wants to hook up with a guy, I'm right here and so I'd be offended if she went elsewhere for such. Sexual relationships with guys and girls are just different, that's all; neither is more "real" than the other.
I'm okay with my girlfriend having relationships with other girls but not other guys. If she wants to have a sexual relationship with a girl, that's a need that I am physically incapable of providing. If she wants to hook up with a guy, I'm right here and so I'd be offended if she went elsewhere for such. Sexual relationships with guys and girls are just different, that's all; neither is more "real" than the other.
44
Dan Savage, who wrote:
I understand the feeling, and I do have empathy with her. But by leaving off these details, then how can we determine whether this is or isn't a situation in which "cheating is the least worst option"? You yourself, Dan, came up with CPOS as a descriptor of certain kinds of partners in relationships. For this category to have any validity, we must know whether or not the necessary circumstances apply.
To BCASS, all I can say is what Dan has already said: talking to your husband about it is a first necessary step. Expressing your lack of satisfaction should be possible -- if he married you, then he loves you, right? And he wants to understand you and what makes you happy, right? So it should be possible to have a grown-up conversation with him about the topic.
If the result of the conversation is satisfactory to you -- i.e., if he is OK with opening the relationship so that you can have sex on the side with some hot ladies as you desire -- then we'll all be happier for you. If it isn't -- if he says no, no, no, I can't possibly accept this; then the ball is up to you.
Many people here would think that the honest thing to do would be to leave him, if sex is really that important to you, or then to stay and suffer, in case being with him is more important to you than sex. You'd have to make the call, and live an honest life.
Others (me included) would say there are circumstances under which your husband's hypothetical refusal to help you in your sexual development would indeed be too much, so that you would be entitled to do whatever you need to do to stay sane, including having an affair with a woman against his will -- which, indeed, would be cheating. (Maybe you don't feel like it's cheating because it's not another man, but if your husband is just as hurt by you having another female partner as he would be by you having a male partner, then it is cheating to him. And since your relationship is with him, his opinion also matters.)
So, are you living under such circumstances that indeed cheating is the best option? I don't know. You haven't given enough detail. All I can say is: think carefully about your options (cheating, not cheating), think about what could happen in each case -- the chance that you'd hurt your husband (if he found out), or yourself (if you never had your bi-experience), or others (are there children?). Ask yourself how you would feel if your husband did the same to you. And so on and so forth.
And then, after thinking carefully about pros and cons, make your choice; and accept its consequences.
And... good luck. Sincerely!
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Please go easy on her, people, as we don't know all the particulars of her situation. We don't know whether she has kids or not, whether her husband is a reasonable person or a violent asswipe, or just how dependent she is on her husband.
I understand the feeling, and I do have empathy with her. But by leaving off these details, then how can we determine whether this is or isn't a situation in which "cheating is the least worst option"? You yourself, Dan, came up with CPOS as a descriptor of certain kinds of partners in relationships. For this category to have any validity, we must know whether or not the necessary circumstances apply.
To BCASS, all I can say is what Dan has already said: talking to your husband about it is a first necessary step. Expressing your lack of satisfaction should be possible -- if he married you, then he loves you, right? And he wants to understand you and what makes you happy, right? So it should be possible to have a grown-up conversation with him about the topic.
If the result of the conversation is satisfactory to you -- i.e., if he is OK with opening the relationship so that you can have sex on the side with some hot ladies as you desire -- then we'll all be happier for you. If it isn't -- if he says no, no, no, I can't possibly accept this; then the ball is up to you.
Many people here would think that the honest thing to do would be to leave him, if sex is really that important to you, or then to stay and suffer, in case being with him is more important to you than sex. You'd have to make the call, and live an honest life.
Others (me included) would say there are circumstances under which your husband's hypothetical refusal to help you in your sexual development would indeed be too much, so that you would be entitled to do whatever you need to do to stay sane, including having an affair with a woman against his will -- which, indeed, would be cheating. (Maybe you don't feel like it's cheating because it's not another man, but if your husband is just as hurt by you having another female partner as he would be by you having a male partner, then it is cheating to him. And since your relationship is with him, his opinion also matters.)
So, are you living under such circumstances that indeed cheating is the best option? I don't know. You haven't given enough detail. All I can say is: think carefully about your options (cheating, not cheating), think about what could happen in each case -- the chance that you'd hurt your husband (if he found out), or yourself (if you never had your bi-experience), or others (are there children?). Ask yourself how you would feel if your husband did the same to you. And so on and so forth.
And then, after thinking carefully about pros and cons, make your choice; and accept its consequences.
And... good luck. Sincerely!
45
@17,
Some decrease in libido is common and to be expected over the course of a relationship. And some people get married to people who they know have a much lower libido to begin with, or they marry people who don't see sex as a priority; in that case, the fault's on them and they don't have my pity.
The default is that the cheater is a POS unless they level with their spouse about their desires, needs, and that they are tempted to/going to stray, and then honestly agree on a solution with their partner (divorce, an affair, etc). Asking for permission and then cheating when denied it doesn't count.
In my opinion, there is no real justification to cheat and stay. There may be reasons, but none morally absolve the betrayal. Generally that option is only invoked to protect the cheater, or, condescendingly, out of "interest" of the children/spouse. But why should a spouse be forced to support someone who isn't living up to their needs/desires/vows of monogamy? Dan argues that if sex isn't a priority to you, you shouldn't be bothered by your partner seeking it elsewhere, but what about people who prioritize monogamy? Why shouldn't the cheated-on partner get a say in whether they want to stay married to someone solely for pragmatic reasons like health care or parenting? If parenting is truly a two person job, then both parties must have a say in whether they want to stay together solely for the children. Why should the cheater assume that the kids would rather grow up in a house where one parent is cheating, rather than in a stable divorced or blended family? My parents divorced early, but if they had lived together and I'd discovered one had been cheating, it would seriously harm my relationship with and respect for the cheater.
By the way, I myself am in a monogamish relationship. But we are both, my partner and I, on the up and up. And it makes me sad that people would compare my relationship to one based on lies and no trust.
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Some decrease in libido is common and to be expected over the course of a relationship. And some people get married to people who they know have a much lower libido to begin with, or they marry people who don't see sex as a priority; in that case, the fault's on them and they don't have my pity.
The default is that the cheater is a POS unless they level with their spouse about their desires, needs, and that they are tempted to/going to stray, and then honestly agree on a solution with their partner (divorce, an affair, etc). Asking for permission and then cheating when denied it doesn't count.
In my opinion, there is no real justification to cheat and stay. There may be reasons, but none morally absolve the betrayal. Generally that option is only invoked to protect the cheater, or, condescendingly, out of "interest" of the children/spouse. But why should a spouse be forced to support someone who isn't living up to their needs/desires/vows of monogamy? Dan argues that if sex isn't a priority to you, you shouldn't be bothered by your partner seeking it elsewhere, but what about people who prioritize monogamy? Why shouldn't the cheated-on partner get a say in whether they want to stay married to someone solely for pragmatic reasons like health care or parenting? If parenting is truly a two person job, then both parties must have a say in whether they want to stay together solely for the children. Why should the cheater assume that the kids would rather grow up in a house where one parent is cheating, rather than in a stable divorced or blended family? My parents divorced early, but if they had lived together and I'd discovered one had been cheating, it would seriously harm my relationship with and respect for the cheater.
By the way, I myself am in a monogamish relationship. But we are both, my partner and I, on the up and up. And it makes me sad that people would compare my relationship to one based on lies and no trust.
46
@45 (shurenka -- are you Russian?), I agree with the spirit of what you're saying, and especially that honesty and openness (and a respect for the rights and opinions of both partners) is of crucial importance in the success of a relationship.
Where I differ is that I do think there are circumstances in which cheating and/or lying about it are the best option available.
Life is complicated; it often throws at you things that involve moral dilemmas where your options are not so clear-cut and obvious as may seem at the time you do your own bird's-eye view of the world to decide on your moral system and values. One thing I've learned, as time goes by, is that life has a way of making things happen that test the logics and applicability of any moral system you'd care to choose.
So, even though right now I can't imagine a set of circumstances under which I think it best to cheat on or lie to my wife -- given the kind of relationship we have, I don't think I'd ever need to -- or that she might also think her best option is to cheat on or lie to me... the fact I can't think of any such set of circumstances doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It only means I can't think of it.
Don't get me wrong. I think honesty is very important. I just don't think life operates under the assumption that the things we find important are always our best options. I hope to be blessed with a life that won't test the limits of my moral system... maybe I'll be lucky.
Where I differ is that I do think there are circumstances in which cheating and/or lying about it are the best option available.
Life is complicated; it often throws at you things that involve moral dilemmas where your options are not so clear-cut and obvious as may seem at the time you do your own bird's-eye view of the world to decide on your moral system and values. One thing I've learned, as time goes by, is that life has a way of making things happen that test the logics and applicability of any moral system you'd care to choose.
So, even though right now I can't imagine a set of circumstances under which I think it best to cheat on or lie to my wife -- given the kind of relationship we have, I don't think I'd ever need to -- or that she might also think her best option is to cheat on or lie to me... the fact I can't think of any such set of circumstances doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It only means I can't think of it.
Don't get me wrong. I think honesty is very important. I just don't think life operates under the assumption that the things we find important are always our best options. I hope to be blessed with a life that won't test the limits of my moral system... maybe I'll be lucky.
47
If you find yourself a girlfriend you'll fall in love because you are clearly starved for real intimacy. Then you'll be faced with whether to tell the husband you are in love with a woman. Also, the new girlfriend will likely start pressuring you to leave the husband for her or she'll leave you. So, taking the easy route of not telling the husband will probably end up being really difficult. Instead, tell the husband you want a girlfriend on the side.
48
This letter is too vague to be the SLLOTD. It's a nascent thought in someone's head.
@LW
Take some kind of action. Talk to him. Do something! Read Savage Love (including the comments). Then if you have a question, by all means send it in.
(geez, Dan, sometimes we phone it in but this is ridiculous)
@LW
Take some kind of action. Talk to him. Do something! Read Savage Love (including the comments). Then if you have a question, by all means send it in.
(geez, Dan, sometimes we phone it in but this is ridiculous)
50
This quote bothers me: "We almost never have sex, maybe twice a month if I'm lucky." Sex every two weeks after ten years of marriage may be less than the LW wants to be having, but it's far from "almost never". Dan has previously signed off on people going outside of the relationship without their partners consent if the partner is depriving them of sex, but it seems to me that this isn't one of those situations.
Now, having said that, of course the LW should talk to her husband, see if she can bang out an agreement with him about seeing a woman (or women) on the side. As many commenters have said before me, I wouldn't be surprised if he agreed wholeheartedly. And if he doesn't agree, at the very least it should fuel some conversation about what is missing from their sex life.
To the LW: Wanting more sex and wanting sex with a woman don't even come close to making you a bad person. But if you go behind your husband's back about this without talking to him first, especially considering that you're still getting laid pretty regularly? THAT makes you a CPOS.
Now, having said that, of course the LW should talk to her husband, see if she can bang out an agreement with him about seeing a woman (or women) on the side. As many commenters have said before me, I wouldn't be surprised if he agreed wholeheartedly. And if he doesn't agree, at the very least it should fuel some conversation about what is missing from their sex life.
To the LW: Wanting more sex and wanting sex with a woman don't even come close to making you a bad person. But if you go behind your husband's back about this without talking to him first, especially considering that you're still getting laid pretty regularly? THAT makes you a CPOS.
51
1. You do have someone you can talk to about this. YOUR HUSBAND. He's supposed to be the person you go to about your sexual needs.
2. Twice a month after ten years of marriage isn't "almost never" having sex. It's not being sex-starved. It's not a "do what you have to do to stay sane" kind of situation. People can stay sane on twice-a-month sex. If you want more sex, TALK TO YOUR HUSBAND.
3. Not a CPOS! You haven't cheated yet. But if your question was actually "*would* I be a CPOS if I started dating women without first doing the scary, vulnerable work of TALKING TO MY HUSBAND first," yes, then you *would* be a CPOS.
He's a good man, right? He loves you and wants you to be happy, right? Go talk to him!
2. Twice a month after ten years of marriage isn't "almost never" having sex. It's not being sex-starved. It's not a "do what you have to do to stay sane" kind of situation. People can stay sane on twice-a-month sex. If you want more sex, TALK TO YOUR HUSBAND.
3. Not a CPOS! You haven't cheated yet. But if your question was actually "*would* I be a CPOS if I started dating women without first doing the scary, vulnerable work of TALKING TO MY HUSBAND first," yes, then you *would* be a CPOS.
He's a good man, right? He loves you and wants you to be happy, right? Go talk to him!
52
Mr Lash - Because I approve of you a vast majority of the time, I ask this in reasonably good humour:
But what happens when your girlfriend NEEDS to have sex with a man who is NOT A PIG?
Apart from that, I do honour you as a monogamous person with a non-monogamous partner, the lot I always expected but never had to live, though why I was enough for my very small number of partners I'll never know. Just please don't pin labels on me.
But what happens when your girlfriend NEEDS to have sex with a man who is NOT A PIG?
Apart from that, I do honour you as a monogamous person with a non-monogamous partner, the lot I always expected but never had to live, though why I was enough for my very small number of partners I'll never know. Just please don't pin labels on me.
53
As per the above,
The husband has to wear a condom to have sex with his own wife to prevent being infected from a situation not of his own choosing, and in 2012 not worry about his bi-curious wife being stolen by another woman? Forgive me for going all male piggish, but where is the husband's upside?
Could we start with trying to find out if the guy's stress level from outside the home isn't wiping out his libido before we suggest ratcheting it up inside his home? I vote next step is couple's therapy, including the introduction of BCASS's bisexual needs on the table.
"The Insecure Condom Hating Monogamist" is not yet awake; time for more tea...
Peace.
The husband has to wear a condom to have sex with his own wife to prevent being infected from a situation not of his own choosing, and in 2012 not worry about his bi-curious wife being stolen by another woman? Forgive me for going all male piggish, but where is the husband's upside?
Could we start with trying to find out if the guy's stress level from outside the home isn't wiping out his libido before we suggest ratcheting it up inside his home? I vote next step is couple's therapy, including the introduction of BCASS's bisexual needs on the table.
"The Insecure Condom Hating Monogamist" is not yet awake; time for more tea...
Peace.
54
Mr Ank - Small points of dissent (I'm in a really persnickety mood right now, but happily I am not offended by any of the current threads, as I was by the last weekly thread, which was why I dropped out of it):
[Where I differ is that I do think there are circumstances in which cheating and/or lying about it are the best option available.]
Why ARE instead of COULD BE, which fits much better with the hedging nature of the remainder of the post?
[Expressing your lack of satisfaction should be possible -- if he married you, then he loves you, right? And he wants to understand you and what makes you happy, right? So it should be possible to have a grown-up conversation with him about the topic.]
Yes, they should be able to have a grown-up conversation. I might have been able to give "marriage means love" a pass, but, if I had a small stipend for every married person I've ever known who was entirely unconcerned about understanding his/her spouse and that spouse's pleasure, I could go live in comparative luxury in the North of France.
[If the result of the conversation is satisfactory to you -- i.e., if he is OK with opening the relationship so that you can have sex on the side with some hot ladies as you desire -- then we'll all be happier for you.]
The LW said A NICE WOMAN. You up it to SOME HOT LADIES. As someone who is decidedly NOT hot, may I respectfully request that you withdraw the offending adjective? In return, I shall refrain from making any sort of comment containing the word PROJECTION.
As an aside, what would you consider reasonable reciprocation for, firstly, the initial experiment(s), and then, should continued relations of that nature be desired, ongoing extramarital encounters? I forestall you from saying that he should be permitted to learn Latvian.
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[Where I differ is that I do think there are circumstances in which cheating and/or lying about it are the best option available.]
Why ARE instead of COULD BE, which fits much better with the hedging nature of the remainder of the post?
[Expressing your lack of satisfaction should be possible -- if he married you, then he loves you, right? And he wants to understand you and what makes you happy, right? So it should be possible to have a grown-up conversation with him about the topic.]
Yes, they should be able to have a grown-up conversation. I might have been able to give "marriage means love" a pass, but, if I had a small stipend for every married person I've ever known who was entirely unconcerned about understanding his/her spouse and that spouse's pleasure, I could go live in comparative luxury in the North of France.
[If the result of the conversation is satisfactory to you -- i.e., if he is OK with opening the relationship so that you can have sex on the side with some hot ladies as you desire -- then we'll all be happier for you.]
The LW said A NICE WOMAN. You up it to SOME HOT LADIES. As someone who is decidedly NOT hot, may I respectfully request that you withdraw the offending adjective? In return, I shall refrain from making any sort of comment containing the word PROJECTION.
As an aside, what would you consider reasonable reciprocation for, firstly, the initial experiment(s), and then, should continued relations of that nature be desired, ongoing extramarital encounters? I forestall you from saying that he should be permitted to learn Latvian.
55
Huh? The husband wants to be monogamous (or let's assume he does, pending The Talk.) The wife doesn't. If she sneaks, why is she not a CPOS?
The guy deserves to know if he's not in a monogamous relationship, so he can make informed decisions about his own life. Maybe he'll decide it's worth staying, or maybe he won't, but I don't see why she gets to make the choice for him.
The guy deserves to know if he's not in a monogamous relationship, so he can make informed decisions about his own life. Maybe he'll decide it's worth staying, or maybe he won't, but I don't see why she gets to make the choice for him.
56
B-CAS-S should have a talk with her husband. Maybe he wants more sex that they're getting. Maybe the potential CPOS doesn't fulfill her husband's fetishes and turn-ons: either because she's never asked (they don't seem great at communication) or because she's just not GGG. Does she initiate? Has he been to the doctor to diagnose potential medical issues interfering with his libido.
Lots of men are less threatened by a woman sleeping with another woman. Ignoring the gender politics of that position, there's probably a good chance that while BCASS's husband would not allow them to open their relationship to a man, he would allow her to have a female piece on the side. It's also entirely possible that the thought of his wife with another woman might be the spark he needs to get that motor in gear so the pair of them can have sex more than twice a month.
Regardless of the sex of the partner, if BCASS sleeps with a woman without bothering to talk to her husband, I think she earns the CPOS label. Additionally, not being able to talk about a basic need such as sex indicates that their marriage is not long for this world, so she'll be reduced to a divorced POS.
Lots of men are less threatened by a woman sleeping with another woman. Ignoring the gender politics of that position, there's probably a good chance that while BCASS's husband would not allow them to open their relationship to a man, he would allow her to have a female piece on the side. It's also entirely possible that the thought of his wife with another woman might be the spark he needs to get that motor in gear so the pair of them can have sex more than twice a month.
Regardless of the sex of the partner, if BCASS sleeps with a woman without bothering to talk to her husband, I think she earns the CPOS label. Additionally, not being able to talk about a basic need such as sex indicates that their marriage is not long for this world, so she'll be reduced to a divorced POS.
57
Mr Savage - May I respectfully submit that it would have been more clever of you to have asked that commenters attempt to emulate you, with a hint that you would have gone easy on the LW? "Throwing her to the wolves" while simultaneously telling the wolves to play nice is, though taking it to rather a lesser degree, emulating those Republican operatives who ensured that President Bush's Town Hall Meetings would be filled only by people who would grill him with such tough questions as, "I just want to say that I think you're doing a wonderful job!"
58
There's so much left out that I really wish the LW would come on here to supply some of the missing details. But, for one thing, for those who think that twice a month is not bad after ten years, please note she wrote
However (and, once again, I wish the LW could expand on this), I'm wondering if her lack of prior experience (only two male partners including her husband) is leading her towards the conclusion: IF NOT XY, THEN XX. Is her curiosity to be with a woman really based on a more fluid sexual orientation or is it based on the fact that she's been feeling disappointed by the sex she's (not) getting right now, and is making her wonder if dissatisfaction is the only outcome from a relationship with ANY man. IDK, but it sounds like a forced and stilted argument for crossing the fence to that green bisexual valley that looks oh-so-tempting.
How long has it been since the sex fell off? How often were they having sex when/before they got married? How old are they? Does she always wait for him to initiate? Does she masturbate to try to relieve sexual tension (and, yes, I know that masturbation is NOT equivalent to partnered sex that can have emotional layers, also enhancing connectedness). Would she even be entertaining the bi-curious feelings if she were getting more happy-making sex with her husband? Questions, questions, the answers to which could provide us with more substance.
In any case, before she moves on to POS, CPOS or monogamish status, dealing with her lack of a sex life with her husband is the first step. That means talking to HIM. Depending on that outcome will lead her to decide what she'll do next. Maybe she'll write in to Dan again, so we'll know, too.
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We almost never have sex, maybe twice a month if I'm lucky.So, the sex she IS getting could be as infrequently as only once a month or 3 times in two months. In any case, the "almost never" aspect is uppermost in her mind.
However (and, once again, I wish the LW could expand on this), I'm wondering if her lack of prior experience (only two male partners including her husband) is leading her towards the conclusion: IF NOT XY, THEN XX. Is her curiosity to be with a woman really based on a more fluid sexual orientation or is it based on the fact that she's been feeling disappointed by the sex she's (not) getting right now, and is making her wonder if dissatisfaction is the only outcome from a relationship with ANY man. IDK, but it sounds like a forced and stilted argument for crossing the fence to that green bisexual valley that looks oh-so-tempting.
How long has it been since the sex fell off? How often were they having sex when/before they got married? How old are they? Does she always wait for him to initiate? Does she masturbate to try to relieve sexual tension (and, yes, I know that masturbation is NOT equivalent to partnered sex that can have emotional layers, also enhancing connectedness). Would she even be entertaining the bi-curious feelings if she were getting more happy-making sex with her husband? Questions, questions, the answers to which could provide us with more substance.
In any case, before she moves on to POS, CPOS or monogamish status, dealing with her lack of a sex life with her husband is the first step. That means talking to HIM. Depending on that outcome will lead her to decide what she'll do next. Maybe she'll write in to Dan again, so we'll know, too.
59
@53, the husband's "upside" is that he doesn't feel inadequate (because he doesn't know what his wife is doing behind his back). I agree with you that's not much of an upside.
@54 I think asking what's "reasonable reciprocation" for the husband is not necessarily the right question. As marigoldml suggests, maybe he'll love the idea of her with another woman, and he'll get as much out of it as she does. Or maybe there's something he desires, and should ask for (cock up his ass, say...) Whatever. Outsiders can't know what each party wants & needs. They need to figure that out together, through communication.
@58 Agreed.
@54 I think asking what's "reasonable reciprocation" for the husband is not necessarily the right question. As marigoldml suggests, maybe he'll love the idea of her with another woman, and he'll get as much out of it as she does. Or maybe there's something he desires, and should ask for (cock up his ass, say...) Whatever. Outsiders can't know what each party wants & needs. They need to figure that out together, through communication.
@58 Agreed.
60
Try talking to the husband? Maybe he will find the thought hot and you'll get both hot lesbo sex and a more turned on hubby.
61
Ms Erica - Sorry I didn't specify - assuming that it doesn't do anything for the husband. I could say something about the misogynistic stereotype, but, thankfully, that's not my place. And I never liked the term "reasonable reciprocation" but didn't want to spend all day thinking of something better. While obviously specifics must be determined by the pairs involved, there might be some general guidelines for when partner X proposes a venture that will exclude partner Y, and vice versa.
62
maybe thats the fire he needs lit under his sex pop. bring it up ten years should give you an open enough relationship where talking about things is okay.
63
To begin with, it doesn't sound like she's a piece of shit. She sounds like a caring person who is in an uncomfortable situation and is trying hard to consider the feelings of those involved. For that very reason, I suspect lying will, in the long run, feel wrong to her and cause her more trouble than it's worth.
To begin with, I would suggest discussing the situation in the abstract first so as to honestly gauge his response. This can be done by talking about what other people have done, viewing girl-on-girl porn, etc. It's impossible to know exactly what his response would be but it is possible to get a better idea. Will he be a little excited, will he be completely disgusted, etc.
Once she has that that she can make a better decision, but in any case, maybe attaching her interest in women to his inability to satisfy her sexually isn't the best idea. Can the two be directed separately? Maybe during sex with her husband, when he is having fun as well and she feels close, she can bring up an interest in women as a fantasy, not suggesting it as a fix for the infrequent sex but as an exploration.
It sounds like she loves her husband. And she feels safe with him. Very often this feeling of safety has two different effects on partners. To one it may make them less interested in pursuing sex, while to the other it may make them more open to experimentation and exploration. If a wife tells her husband that she would like to experiment with women because she feels that her emotional needs are met and she feels safe enough with him to try this it is a different conversation than if she were to say she wants a female lover because she is not getting enough from her husband.
To begin with, I would suggest discussing the situation in the abstract first so as to honestly gauge his response. This can be done by talking about what other people have done, viewing girl-on-girl porn, etc. It's impossible to know exactly what his response would be but it is possible to get a better idea. Will he be a little excited, will he be completely disgusted, etc.
Once she has that that she can make a better decision, but in any case, maybe attaching her interest in women to his inability to satisfy her sexually isn't the best idea. Can the two be directed separately? Maybe during sex with her husband, when he is having fun as well and she feels close, she can bring up an interest in women as a fantasy, not suggesting it as a fix for the infrequent sex but as an exploration.
It sounds like she loves her husband. And she feels safe with him. Very often this feeling of safety has two different effects on partners. To one it may make them less interested in pursuing sex, while to the other it may make them more open to experimentation and exploration. If a wife tells her husband that she would like to experiment with women because she feels that her emotional needs are met and she feels safe enough with him to try this it is a different conversation than if she were to say she wants a female lover because she is not getting enough from her husband.
64
@61, I think the general guidelines are that X should ask Y what Y needs to feel comfortable with the proposed venture. That might mean Y gets a parallel venture that excludes X, or it might mean that X & Y go out on more fun date-nights together.
For instance, we just put in a guideline that for every date with an outside person, Mr. P and I go out together on a date, that same week. (This came about because he went out on 4 dates with 4 different people in one week, which proved more than I could handle.)
For instance, we just put in a guideline that for every date with an outside person, Mr. P and I go out together on a date, that same week. (This came about because he went out on 4 dates with 4 different people in one week, which proved more than I could handle.)
65
To begin with, it doesn't sound like she's a piece of shit. She sounds like a caring person who is in an uncomfortable situation and is trying hard to consider the feelings of those involved. For that very reason, I suspect lying will, in the long run, feel wrong to her and cause her more trouble than it's worth.
To begin with, I would suggest discussing the situation in the abstract first so as to honestly gauge his response. This can be done by talking about what other people have done, viewing girl-on-girl porn, etc. It's impossible to know exactly what his response would be but it is possible to get a better idea. Will he be a little excited, will he be completely disgusted, etc.
Once she has that that she can make a better decision, but in any case, maybe attaching her interest in women to his inability to satisfy her sexually isn't the best idea. Can the two be directed separately? Maybe during sex with her husband, when he is having fun as well and she feels close, she can bring up an interest in women as a fantasy, not suggesting it as a fix for the infrequent sex but as an exploration.
It sounds like she loves her husband. And she feels safe with him. Very often this feeling of safety has two different effects on partners. To one it may make them less interested in pursuing sex, while to the other it may make them more open to experimentation and exploration. If a wife tells her husband that she would like to experiment with women because she feels that her emotional needs are met and she feels safe enough with him to try this it is a different conversation than if she were to say she wants a female lover because she is not getting enough from her husband.
To begin with, I would suggest discussing the situation in the abstract first so as to honestly gauge his response. This can be done by talking about what other people have done, viewing girl-on-girl porn, etc. It's impossible to know exactly what his response would be but it is possible to get a better idea. Will he be a little excited, will he be completely disgusted, etc.
Once she has that that she can make a better decision, but in any case, maybe attaching her interest in women to his inability to satisfy her sexually isn't the best idea. Can the two be directed separately? Maybe during sex with her husband, when he is having fun as well and she feels close, she can bring up an interest in women as a fantasy, not suggesting it as a fix for the infrequent sex but as an exploration.
It sounds like she loves her husband. And she feels safe with him. Very often this feeling of safety has two different effects on partners. To one it may make them less interested in pursuing sex, while to the other it may make them more open to experimentation and exploration. If a wife tells her husband that she would like to experiment with women because she feels that her emotional needs are met and she feels safe enough with him to try this it is a different conversation than if she were to say she wants a female lover because she is not getting enough from her husband.
67
It's "cheating" unless she has her husband's permission. If she asks him about it, he might not mind or might not care at all. Or, his response might be "if you are unhappy with me, that is your right, but then your two options are to either stay with me and be faithful, or leave me and do what you please with whomever you want."
It's YOUR right to sleep with anyone you want, but it is also HIS right to be with someone who is faithful (if that is what he wants from the marriage).
Wanting something more than your current marriage doesn't make you a Piece of Shit, but if you sleep with someone else without your husband's knowledge, you ARE a Cheater.
It's YOUR right to sleep with anyone you want, but it is also HIS right to be with someone who is faithful (if that is what he wants from the marriage).
Wanting something more than your current marriage doesn't make you a Piece of Shit, but if you sleep with someone else without your husband's knowledge, you ARE a Cheater.
68
I definitely think the first step should be talking to her husband about her concerns.....perhaps he'd be more than happy for her to meet another woman with a similar libido, or maybe even want to participate. I agree not all cheaters are pieces of shit, but I think it's best to try and be open and honest and give the (assumed) non-cheating partner a chance to fix things first before seeking sex outside the relationship.
69
I don't see how cheating is ever justified...Would it be okay in reverse? If you could live with your partner doing this to you, then, maybe it's okay. But cheating is cheating, and we all have to live with ourselves for our actions.
70
I'm in the same boat as BCASS; my husband is pretty much my best friend in the whole wide world and have a fantastic relationship....... outside of the bedroom. The rest is so-so. He always sorta knew that I liked girls too, even though I'd never actually dated any or specifically stated an interest. He was absolutely ecstatic when I "came out" and told him I was interested in getting a girlfriend at some point. That's major fantasy fuel for many guys, you know? So now when we go out we check out women together (apparently we have similar tastes); I get my girl-flirt on and he ogles to his heart's content. Just comparing notes and thinking about taking someone home gets us both really revved up. Then we get to take it out on each other later : )
71
"I have no desire to cheat on my husband with a man. I just want to explore myself and explore these feelings for women. I want something he can't give me, Dan, but I don't want to leave him or feel endlessly resentful about how little sex I'm able to have any longer. "
I get a little itchy when bisexuals use this as an excuse to cheat. Any time you are looking to hookup with someone besides your partner, it's because they can give you something your partner can't. Bigger, thinner, blonder, younger, funnier, kinkier, smellier, whatever. Why else do it? By using gender as a justification, it just seems to give credence to all those homophobic nuts who think that same-sex attraction is some sort of compulsion that has to be eradicated (not that anyone should really change their behavior because of the nuts.)
I get a little itchy when bisexuals use this as an excuse to cheat. Any time you are looking to hookup with someone besides your partner, it's because they can give you something your partner can't. Bigger, thinner, blonder, younger, funnier, kinkier, smellier, whatever. Why else do it? By using gender as a justification, it just seems to give credence to all those homophobic nuts who think that same-sex attraction is some sort of compulsion that has to be eradicated (not that anyone should really change their behavior because of the nuts.)
72
I think that unless she has Very Good reason to expect a Hostile Response from the husband, he's owed the opportunity to know what's going on with you. As a husband of 15 years, I know that I can sense when things are not ok in the relationship and am Never fooled when my wife denies complaints. You might be very pleasantly surprised with his reaction--as long as he is made to understand that what you're looking for is *just* sex and not a "girlfriend" to replace him. It's very possible that knowing about this side of you and talking about it will give your married sex life a much needed kick in the pants. My own marriage is a monogamish one, my wife is bisexual and we've been swingers since just after we married. Personally, my only concern was that neither of us was subconsciously looking for something better--rather than working to make *us* better.
74
i am bi (for lack of a better word), i've cheated on my spouse because he wouldn't give me permission to go outside our relationship. he had the ultimatum that if i could fuck other girls, he could fuck other girls. i said no, you can fuck other guys. he's straight; i said not my problem. the reason i feel, for me, that fucking women isn't as traumatizing as if i were to fuck another man(to my spouse), is because i'm not a lesbian. i have never had romantic feelings towards a woman, and probably never will. i just like fucking them. i won't leave him for a woman; it's possible i would leave him (aka: fall in love) with another guy i banged.
75
Just adding a bit of similarly-experienced concurrence here.
1) 2X/month would have been a home run in my marriage, so what you have is a libido mismatch, not a neglectful spouse.
2) If my mind, or the minds of the many men I've discussed this with, is any indication, he'll think this is hot. Unless he's super-insecure, in which case he might freak a little bit (this happened to a friend in a three-way once; when he realised how much his GF was getting off on the girl-love he ran screaming from the room. But he's exceptionally insecure, so there's that).
3) You do have a moral obligation to talk to your husband about this. Most people who cheat are just looking for something they are not getting at home, sometimes it's sex, sometimes attention, sometimes affection. You have to let your spouse know what you want.
4) As some have pointed out, I agree that the sexuality aspect and the libido/frequency are separate issues and you conflate them at your peril. If your husband was throwing it down daily, would you still be interested in the sapphic exploration?
5) Finally, even the most secure person *would* have reason for worry. When I was in my 20s, my GF of several years started seeing ladies on the side and decided she didn't like me anymore. She eventually came back (15 years later) but that was a hard experience. The point is, there *is* risk to your husband, so do be sensitive to that.
If he's fairly secure and open-minded, this could very well work out for everyone. But you have to give him the chance. So, as *everyone else* has also said, talk to him.
1) 2X/month would have been a home run in my marriage, so what you have is a libido mismatch, not a neglectful spouse.
2) If my mind, or the minds of the many men I've discussed this with, is any indication, he'll think this is hot. Unless he's super-insecure, in which case he might freak a little bit (this happened to a friend in a three-way once; when he realised how much his GF was getting off on the girl-love he ran screaming from the room. But he's exceptionally insecure, so there's that).
3) You do have a moral obligation to talk to your husband about this. Most people who cheat are just looking for something they are not getting at home, sometimes it's sex, sometimes attention, sometimes affection. You have to let your spouse know what you want.
4) As some have pointed out, I agree that the sexuality aspect and the libido/frequency are separate issues and you conflate them at your peril. If your husband was throwing it down daily, would you still be interested in the sapphic exploration?
5) Finally, even the most secure person *would* have reason for worry. When I was in my 20s, my GF of several years started seeing ladies on the side and decided she didn't like me anymore. She eventually came back (15 years later) but that was a hard experience. The point is, there *is* risk to your husband, so do be sensitive to that.
If he's fairly secure and open-minded, this could very well work out for everyone. But you have to give him the chance. So, as *everyone else* has also said, talk to him.
76
@74: According to your rules, you get to fuck people that you want to fuck; he only gets to fuck people he doesn't actually want to fuck. Wonder of wonders, he didn't agree to that. So you went behind his back. Asshole.
78
@74, spark99, would you consider allowing your husband to sleep with women that you pre-approve? If you fear he would fall in love with another woman, perhaps you could give him the freedom to have sex with particular women whom you think he would be unlikely to fall in love with (for whatever reason). It would be a fair way to share the fun.
79
If you've never had sex with a woman, you need to realize that doing so might lead to a "so this is what I've been searching for all my life" type moment. You say you don't want to break up your marriage, but you must realize that following your curiosity creates a risk that that might happen.
80
i did this. cheated with my bff. how it turned out? i fell in love with her. i was too scared to leave my husband and had too much guilt from my parents fucked-up divorce to do that to my kids. what i lost? by best friend and the love of my life. what i'm left with? having to live knowing i'm a coward in a facade of a marriage where my kids never get to see true love. good luck - i hope your story turns out better.
81
@17 I think this is gender sorted, a bit. I certainly recall no end of scathing scads of commentary when it's the wife withholding sex... there is NO hesitation in the rush to condemn her for neglecting her duties. But when the guy is slacking off... it seems to take longer for the convo to turn around to criticizing him for his lack of attention.
82
@81 "slacking off" seems the wrong phrase given that we have no evidence there used to be more of it. Lots of women would love a partner like him, if he enjoys sex when they do have it, and offers plenty of physical affection. They seem mismatched, and if they don't have children, maybe splitting up would be right for both of them (even though he's a "good man" and she doesn't want to leave him).
83
Interesting because I had a friend who was in very similar situation. She had been (or maybe still is) married for 10 years. She and her hubby both worked in IT industry. She was FOREVER whining about how her husband "didn't sexually satisfy" her and dropping not-subtle hints about being attracted to women. I think she may have even been in a lesbian relationship prior to her marriage.
But now she's married. To a nerdy guy she's not interested in sexually, who makes over $100,000 a year. Plus there's her income. She works whenever she wants, quits whenever she wants, putters around in her garden, spends ungodly amounts of money on various trendy diets and her utterly spoiled pets. Has awesome medical insurance via her husband so she can run to the doctor for any and all real or imagined illnesses. They have two late-model cars both paid for. They have a motorcycle, a hot tub, the standard 'burb dream with hot-n-cold running credit cards. They have gym memberships they rarely use to elite clubs. They take annual anniversary trips to either Mexico or Hawaii. They're house is nearly paid off.
I look at her and wonder WHY she married her poor shlep of a husband if he "does nothing" for her sexually. I can't think of a worse betrayal than to marry someone, support their fickle ass through thick and thin, be denied sex because they're not attracted to me and then find out they cheated on me but were terrified to tell me because I might take away their credit cards, car, healthcare, etc.
My friend wasn't a CPOS, she was a User. And I'll cheer the day I find out her husband found someone who DID like sucking dick!
Oh, and whether the person you cheat with has a dick or a vag makes nooo difference. They're still rejecting their spouse sexually for preference over someone else. Someone who's not married to them, not supporting them, not putting up with their fickle, immature ass.
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But now she's married. To a nerdy guy she's not interested in sexually, who makes over $100,000 a year. Plus there's her income. She works whenever she wants, quits whenever she wants, putters around in her garden, spends ungodly amounts of money on various trendy diets and her utterly spoiled pets. Has awesome medical insurance via her husband so she can run to the doctor for any and all real or imagined illnesses. They have two late-model cars both paid for. They have a motorcycle, a hot tub, the standard 'burb dream with hot-n-cold running credit cards. They have gym memberships they rarely use to elite clubs. They take annual anniversary trips to either Mexico or Hawaii. They're house is nearly paid off.
I look at her and wonder WHY she married her poor shlep of a husband if he "does nothing" for her sexually. I can't think of a worse betrayal than to marry someone, support their fickle ass through thick and thin, be denied sex because they're not attracted to me and then find out they cheated on me but were terrified to tell me because I might take away their credit cards, car, healthcare, etc.
My friend wasn't a CPOS, she was a User. And I'll cheer the day I find out her husband found someone who DID like sucking dick!
Oh, and whether the person you cheat with has a dick or a vag makes nooo difference. They're still rejecting their spouse sexually for preference over someone else. Someone who's not married to them, not supporting them, not putting up with their fickle, immature ass.
84
Yes, without your husband knowing that you're fucking someone else, you'll be cheating. Even if you can yell 'SNAP' when you see one another's genitalia because they're so similiar, it's still cheating.
Whether you're a peice of shit for cheating, is a different thing entirely.
The 'Oh but twice a month after 10 years isn't starvation' is bullshit. Maybe for other people, it's enough, but you're not other people. You've got the appetite you've got. Can't change it and just because it's different doesn't mean you feel any less sex starved.
Don't bundle all the issues into one discussion. Deal with the fact that you want more sex first, then (if you feel it's okay) start pointing out girls you'd think are cute. Go from there, baby steps.
It concerns me that you can't talk to your husband about your need for more sex. He needs to know there's a problem and it's unfair for you to 'decide' that he doesn't get to help solve the problem. If it's just a matter of him being hurt, then yep, he will probably be hurt. But better he be hurt by a discussion that will help strengthen the relationship in the long run, than be hurt by you making a decision without him ever knowing there was a problem.
The other side of the coin, could be that talking to him means too much of a hassle for you. He might be the kind of dick who just doesn't listen when you say it's a problem, it's not his problem so it's not something he's interested in solving. He might be the kind of emotionally abusive arsehole who turns it into a drama where you're 'hurting' him by questioning his ability to be a sex machine.
If it's the second option, then you need to DTMF.
If you can't DTMF because you love that Mother Fucker. Then cheat on him, free in the knowledge you're not a peice of shit. But be aware, that for every action, there is a consequence. Cheating can shine a light on all the ways that you're unhappy with the person you're 'with'.
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Whether you're a peice of shit for cheating, is a different thing entirely.
The 'Oh but twice a month after 10 years isn't starvation' is bullshit. Maybe for other people, it's enough, but you're not other people. You've got the appetite you've got. Can't change it and just because it's different doesn't mean you feel any less sex starved.
Don't bundle all the issues into one discussion. Deal with the fact that you want more sex first, then (if you feel it's okay) start pointing out girls you'd think are cute. Go from there, baby steps.
It concerns me that you can't talk to your husband about your need for more sex. He needs to know there's a problem and it's unfair for you to 'decide' that he doesn't get to help solve the problem. If it's just a matter of him being hurt, then yep, he will probably be hurt. But better he be hurt by a discussion that will help strengthen the relationship in the long run, than be hurt by you making a decision without him ever knowing there was a problem.
The other side of the coin, could be that talking to him means too much of a hassle for you. He might be the kind of dick who just doesn't listen when you say it's a problem, it's not his problem so it's not something he's interested in solving. He might be the kind of emotionally abusive arsehole who turns it into a drama where you're 'hurting' him by questioning his ability to be a sex machine.
If it's the second option, then you need to DTMF.
If you can't DTMF because you love that Mother Fucker. Then cheat on him, free in the knowledge you're not a peice of shit. But be aware, that for every action, there is a consequence. Cheating can shine a light on all the ways that you're unhappy with the person you're 'with'.
85
Complete and total acceptance within agreements... if you're in an agreed upon monogamous relationship, and wish to change that agreement AND stay in that relationship, the other party must be party to that change. If, as Dan suggests, that mitigating factors, such as financial (or other) dependencies, or domestic violence are part of the writer's marriage, then exploring sexuality seems to me, to be bringing some back-burner-self-actualization to the fore when things like safety and/or basic needs being met should be attended to first.
86
I think that the best option is to be honest with her husband and negotiate a monogamish relationship sans deceit. Barring that, tough to say, but telling your husband is the best option in my opinion with my limited knowledge.
87
@Mr Ven (@54), I was actually drinking a cup of tea when I started reading your comments -- you made me laugh and almost spill it on the computer keyboard. Of course, Kantean morals would prevent me from seriously claiming that you would be to blame if the COULD BE of my damaged keyboard actually became an IS (besides, Hume claims OUGHTs are not real statements anyway), so... Thanks!
For no reason. I'm perfectly happy with COULD BE's. (I tend to see possibilities as 'actually existing' in some abstract possibility space, just like physicists' phase space or Daniel Dennett's design space. But since there are non-intersecting areas of this space with respect to the plane of our reality, COULD BE is most assuredly the best choice. Probably the problem is simply that I don't review my comments for style and word choice as often as I should. More on this below.)
Indeed. The LW did seem a little naive to me (for some reason I got the impression she is young), so I thought she might be more likely to be convinced if I made reference to some -- alas! -- still quite frequent romantic stereotypes. Just as I might frame some moral questions in terms of Disney Princesses and their choices when I'm discussing morals with my little daughter.
By all means: adjective withdrawn. Unless of course the LW states in some future comment that she'd rather have hot than nice ladies. Both categories are, I suppose, OK. (That is reallly me not paying so much attention to the actual wording of the letter before offering comments. As I mentioned above, I probably should examine what I write more carefully before definitely posting it... or else I run the risk of attributing to a LW things s/he didn't say.) Projection?... Hm. Maybe. But interesting, do I also hear some hierarchisation in your comment? As if hot ladies were somehow worse than nice ones? ;-)
For this particular LW, everything would depend on the husband and his personality/inclinations, I think. If I personally were in his position, I would react very differently (having a little bit of a cuckold fetish, I'd actually be delighted if my wife wanted to have an affair). But if I were to take the position of "the average man" (or of "the reasonable/fair man", that abstract subject of moral statements...) I would say that the LW should not ask for any rights that she's not willing to grant her husband. That would mean, at the very least, asking him if he has any kinks or fantasies he would also like to realize, and making herself available for that; and perhaps also opening up the relationship for him.
I wouldn't in principle distinguish opening up the relationship for affairs with women from opening it up for affairs with men; to me, both cases involve allowing other adult individuals to get involved and are morally equivalent. So I would also find it OK if her husband said she would have to let him also have sex with other women. But I understand people differ in this respect (like seandr above).
Learning Latvian is another kind of sex. It grows in your hypocampus, flashes through your cerebellum, and then races up and down your spine, producing all kinds of pleasurable sensations as it goes along. It's more like taking drugs, from what I hear (my experience with drugs is very limited indeed). Alas, it's only for the happy few. Most people apparently do feel nothing even when looking at sentences like "Tas ir mans draugs Ričards" ('that's my friend Richard') or when listening to the beautiful tone differences between "tēvs" 'father' (long high) and "dēls" 'son' (long falling).
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Why ARE instead of COULD BE, which fits much better with the hedging nature of the remainder of the post?
For no reason. I'm perfectly happy with COULD BE's. (I tend to see possibilities as 'actually existing' in some abstract possibility space, just like physicists' phase space or Daniel Dennett's design space. But since there are non-intersecting areas of this space with respect to the plane of our reality, COULD BE is most assuredly the best choice. Probably the problem is simply that I don't review my comments for style and word choice as often as I should. More on this below.)
Yes, they should be able to have a grown-up conversation. I might have been able to give "marriage means love" a pass, but, if I had a small stipend for every married person I've ever known who was entirely unconcerned about understanding his/her spouse and that spouse's pleasure, I could go live in comparative luxury in the North of France.
Indeed. The LW did seem a little naive to me (for some reason I got the impression she is young), so I thought she might be more likely to be convinced if I made reference to some -- alas! -- still quite frequent romantic stereotypes. Just as I might frame some moral questions in terms of Disney Princesses and their choices when I'm discussing morals with my little daughter.
The LW said A NICE WOMAN. You up it to SOME HOT LADIES. As someone who is decidedly NOT hot, may I respectfully request that you withdraw the offending adjective? In return, I shall refrain from making any sort of comment containing the word PROJECTION.
By all means: adjective withdrawn. Unless of course the LW states in some future comment that she'd rather have hot than nice ladies. Both categories are, I suppose, OK. (That is reallly me not paying so much attention to the actual wording of the letter before offering comments. As I mentioned above, I probably should examine what I write more carefully before definitely posting it... or else I run the risk of attributing to a LW things s/he didn't say.) Projection?... Hm. Maybe. But interesting, do I also hear some hierarchisation in your comment? As if hot ladies were somehow worse than nice ones? ;-)
As an aside, what would you consider reasonable reciprocation for, firstly, the initial experiment(s), and then, should continued relations of that nature be desired, ongoing extramarital encounters? I forestall you from saying that he should be permitted to learn Latvian.
For this particular LW, everything would depend on the husband and his personality/inclinations, I think. If I personally were in his position, I would react very differently (having a little bit of a cuckold fetish, I'd actually be delighted if my wife wanted to have an affair). But if I were to take the position of "the average man" (or of "the reasonable/fair man", that abstract subject of moral statements...) I would say that the LW should not ask for any rights that she's not willing to grant her husband. That would mean, at the very least, asking him if he has any kinks or fantasies he would also like to realize, and making herself available for that; and perhaps also opening up the relationship for him.
I wouldn't in principle distinguish opening up the relationship for affairs with women from opening it up for affairs with men; to me, both cases involve allowing other adult individuals to get involved and are morally equivalent. So I would also find it OK if her husband said she would have to let him also have sex with other women. But I understand people differ in this respect (like seandr above).
Learning Latvian is another kind of sex. It grows in your hypocampus, flashes through your cerebellum, and then races up and down your spine, producing all kinds of pleasurable sensations as it goes along. It's more like taking drugs, from what I hear (my experience with drugs is very limited indeed). Alas, it's only for the happy few. Most people apparently do feel nothing even when looking at sentences like "Tas ir mans draugs Ričards" ('that's my friend Richard') or when listening to the beautiful tone differences between "tēvs" 'father' (long high) and "dēls" 'son' (long falling).
89
Mr Ank @ 87 - have you by any chance read The Last Samurai, by Helen De Witt? If not, you must do so. As soon as possible. I am not joking.
(Reassurance: it is not in any way associated with the unfortunately homonymous film involving, I think, Tom Cruise.)
(Reassurance: it is not in any way associated with the unfortunately homonymous film involving, I think, Tom Cruise.)
90
Ms Erica - Well, that's a nice, practical solution to one particular annoyance. I wish everything were so easy.
91
Mr Ank - I thank you for indulging my persnickety mood, and hope not to cause further accidents to your keyboard in future.
92
Mr. Ven @90 I assume you mean the solution Mr. P and I came up with? (Rather than my assertion @82 that the LW and her husband should divorce.) Glad you approve.
94
My .02 for the LW:
I'm recently engaged to a wonderful bisexual woman. When we started to get serious I asked her, point blank on a few occasions if she thinks that she will ever feel the need to be with a woman again and that if that was something she desired we needed to speak about it. She told me she does not and I believe her. The first few times we discussed it I was not sure what my response would have been had she said that she knew she would need to be with a woman from time to time. Maybe I would have ended the relationship, I just don't know. What I do know now is that if she came to me today and told me she needed to be with a woman, I would accept that. It might not be ideal but to be without her would be worse. I think I'd prefer that she have something more casual like a one night stand instead of a FWB arrangement because I don't want her dating anyone else. If she needs the gratification that a woman provides and I cannot for whatever reason I'll deal with it. I just wouldn't be comfortable if there were more of a relationship component to it, I want that just for me.
Good Luck
I'm recently engaged to a wonderful bisexual woman. When we started to get serious I asked her, point blank on a few occasions if she thinks that she will ever feel the need to be with a woman again and that if that was something she desired we needed to speak about it. She told me she does not and I believe her. The first few times we discussed it I was not sure what my response would have been had she said that she knew she would need to be with a woman from time to time. Maybe I would have ended the relationship, I just don't know. What I do know now is that if she came to me today and told me she needed to be with a woman, I would accept that. It might not be ideal but to be without her would be worse. I think I'd prefer that she have something more casual like a one night stand instead of a FWB arrangement because I don't want her dating anyone else. If she needs the gratification that a woman provides and I cannot for whatever reason I'll deal with it. I just wouldn't be comfortable if there were more of a relationship component to it, I want that just for me.
Good Luck
95
My .02 for the LW:
I'm recently engaged to a wonderful bisexual woman. When we started to get serious I asked her, point blank on a few occasions if she thought that she would ever feel the need to be with a woman again and that if that was something she desired we needed to speak about it. She told me she does not and I believe her. The first few times we discussed it I was not sure what my response would have been had she said that she knew she would need to be with a woman from time to time. Maybe I would have ended the relationship, I just don't know. What I do know now is that if she came to me today and told me she needed to be with a woman, I would accept that. It might not be ideal but to be without her would be worse. I think I'd prefer that she have something more casual like a one night stand instead of a FWB arrangement because I don't want her dating anyone else. If she needs the gratification that a woman provides and I cannot for whatever reason I'll deal with it. I just wouldn't be comfortable if there were more of a relationship component to it, I want that just for me.
Good Luck
I'm recently engaged to a wonderful bisexual woman. When we started to get serious I asked her, point blank on a few occasions if she thought that she would ever feel the need to be with a woman again and that if that was something she desired we needed to speak about it. She told me she does not and I believe her. The first few times we discussed it I was not sure what my response would have been had she said that she knew she would need to be with a woman from time to time. Maybe I would have ended the relationship, I just don't know. What I do know now is that if she came to me today and told me she needed to be with a woman, I would accept that. It might not be ideal but to be without her would be worse. I think I'd prefer that she have something more casual like a one night stand instead of a FWB arrangement because I don't want her dating anyone else. If she needs the gratification that a woman provides and I cannot for whatever reason I'll deal with it. I just wouldn't be comfortable if there were more of a relationship component to it, I want that just for me.
Good Luck
96
I haven't read all the responses, so forgive me if my solution is a repeat (it seem so obvious it probably has already been said). But is your husband really a great guy with a low libido, or would the suggestion of letting him watch you with a woman be the spark needed to inflame his wood?
Dan's right, we don't know the details, he could be a controlling motherfucker or Rick Santorum's "only-for-procreatin-and-only-missionary-and-only-once-a-year" cousin... we just don't know what her version of a great guy is. But if he IS a decent fella and the only think missing is sex, she could propose a solution. She opens with the offer of a juicy threesome in the interest of helping them get their groove back. If he declines in disgust, jealousy or simply a lack of interest, then she lays it on the line: "Okay, I tried. Since you're so disinterested, I'm sure you won't care what I do with my time, so I'm doing her."
Dan's right, we don't know the details, he could be a controlling motherfucker or Rick Santorum's "only-for-procreatin-and-only-missionary-and-only-once-a-year" cousin... we just don't know what her version of a great guy is. But if he IS a decent fella and the only think missing is sex, she could propose a solution. She opens with the offer of a juicy threesome in the interest of helping them get their groove back. If he declines in disgust, jealousy or simply a lack of interest, then she lays it on the line: "Okay, I tried. Since you're so disinterested, I'm sure you won't care what I do with my time, so I'm doing her."
97
Ok - I agree with Dan and his normal advice - particulars apply that should be known before we crush this woman via anonymous web postings.. However, as a lesbian (and I am really trying to not come off as the angry dyke who hates bi women here), if offends me that the writer of the question thinks of sex with another woman not "cheating" because it isn't with a man. Bullshit. If you have sex with someone else other than your wife/husband/partner/whatever without consulting them or getting an agreement about being "monogomish", it's cheating.
Bi women wonder why many lesbians avoid being with them (notice I said many, not all). It is this mentality. I found it insulting. To personalize this - I recently broke up with my gf of 7 yrs, who called herself bi. Why? Caught her cheating with a man, then found out she had been doing it for yrs with different guys. I DTMFA. If I had found out she had cheated on me with women, my response would have been the same.
Bi women wonder why many lesbians avoid being with them (notice I said many, not all). It is this mentality. I found it insulting. To personalize this - I recently broke up with my gf of 7 yrs, who called herself bi. Why? Caught her cheating with a man, then found out she had been doing it for yrs with different guys. I DTMFA. If I had found out she had cheated on me with women, my response would have been the same.
98
Try seeing yourself 20 or 30 years in the future. Okay got it? Now would that person regret the doing or the not doing more? That should help you decide but hypothetical gun to my head.....fuck that hottie.
99
I'm in a mixed-libido marriage with infrequent sex (2x/month max) and have bi tendencies myself. How did I solve my problem? My husband buys me toys (which I use a lot) and sometimes helps me use them, and will sometimes perform nonpenetrative sex for my pleasure. He is more than GGG given his lack of libido and I regret that I can't give him as much pleasure back right now. He's admitted to having a fantasy about m/f/f threesomes and if he ever gets his libido (the lack of which is related to medical conditions) and courage up we may try this. But for now, I'm not risking my marriage and kids to satisfy my bi-curiosity or libido. It wouldn't be right.
100
Well, this makes me feel a lot better, as a bisexual girl in a relationship with a bisexual guy, where I still have a lot of unexplored curiosity for the same sex (he doesn't, for some reason, even though he also has no same-sex experience). I can't help but feel kinda guilty because of all the lesbians I hear who complain about bi girls who broke their hearts because they were really more interested in a dude, and all the pressure on us nice bi girls to prove that "we're not all like that!" I guess I'm just going to have to be pretty open about what I want - just sex, no relationship since I'm already in one - but I worry I won't find any girls I like that way.
Anyway, for this advice-giver: I agree with everyone else that you should find out if your husband is a-OK with this first. I haven't done anything with girls yet, but I've already obtained my boyfriend's permission to go forward if something happens.
Anyway, for this advice-giver: I agree with everyone else that you should find out if your husband is a-OK with this first. I haven't done anything with girls yet, but I've already obtained my boyfriend's permission to go forward if something happens.
102
Also, in case anyone's wondering: yes, I'm okay with my boyfriend seeing men on the side, too, he just doesn't seem that interested. (I honestly kind of wish he was.) Both of us feel we'd get too jealous if it was someone of the opposite sex, though, and neither of us has the desire for that anyway.
103
I can absolutely appreciate where this woman is coming from, but I have to say that as a lesbian it offends me a bit when people don't see girl-on-girl sex/kissing/etc. as cheating.
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