Slog
News & ArtsTuesday, January 10, 2012
Books / Games / Nerd Fewer Dungeons, More Dragons
Posted by Paul Constant on Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 1:09 PM
Slog tipper Rich says that the much-reviled 4th edition of Dungeons & Dragons (which I first told you about back in June of 2008) is soon to be no more. And the owner of D&D, local gaming company Wizards of the Coast, seems to be crowd-sourcing the next edition:
...beginning sometime in the spring, we will begin open playtesting. Through our web site, we will release a growing set of rules, classes, monsters and other materials for your study and feedback. We seek to reach as many people as possible, from the gamer who just started with D&D last week to the gaming group that has been together since the early-1970s. For this process to work, we want to give a voice to all D&D fans and players of all previous editions of the game.
You can sign up for the playtest right here. The New York Times story on the revamp is here. My advice to D&D would be to stop trying to compete with Worlds of Warcraft. D&D attracts a very specific group of people—people who enjoy learning and utilizing complex systems of rules and regulations. Button-mashing a dragon to death isn't the same thing as manipulating the random roll of dice into a desired outcome, and that's something that World of Warcraft can never replicate.
People enjoy and get into D&D precisely because it has an air of something bookish and esoteric. It's the sense that there's a whole, complex world there waiting to be discovered that appeals to novices. Dumbing it down and transforming it into a cheap WoW clone isn't going to help matters at all. That's not to say that technology shouldn't be incorporated into D&D (iPad rulebooks would make DMing much easier) but it is to say that technology should be incorporated intelligently into D&D, to enhance the pre-existing experience, rather than trying to turn it into something different.
1
I think the real appeal of D&D (speaking as someone who has played for more than 30 years) is the creativity. As a Dungeon Master, you are tasked with creating and running a world, moving your group through the world and trying to stay three steps ahead of the smartasses. As a player, there is the challenge of subverting the hard work of the DM while not annoying everyone to the point of getting thrown out of the game. You just cannot do these things in WoW.
3
I think it's telling that D&D's 4th edition was replacing our boardgaming nights, not replacing our other RPG nights.
4
The splintered community isn't going to be put back together.
Pathfinder is going to keep owning the 3.5 crowd.
The 4E people definitely aren't going to follow the current WOTC leadership anywhere: the heart, soul and brains behind the edition have long since been fired.
The Essentials people might stick around for something new, but if it took the 'red box' to get them to play DnD, there's no reason they shouldn't branch out into other, non-WoTC games.
Pathfinder is going to keep owning the 3.5 crowd.
The 4E people definitely aren't going to follow the current WOTC leadership anywhere: the heart, soul and brains behind the edition have long since been fired.
The Essentials people might stick around for something new, but if it took the 'red box' to get them to play DnD, there's no reason they shouldn't branch out into other, non-WoTC games.
5
I've played since AD&D 2nd and I like 4 just fine. I've also recently played Pathfinder, Chill, Tekumel, Metamorphosis Alpha, Gamma World and Dark Sun so I don't feel any particular need to get emotional over 4th edition. It's fun.
6
As a long-time player, starting with 2nd edition, I think 4th did a lot of things right. If they gave me the option of rereleasing 4th with all the errata and rules changes, I would pick that over a redesign. Granted, I'd love more flexibility - 3rd and 3.5 gave the player a lot of choice, but they fought you every goddamned step of the way. 4th is fun and simple, and I think it accomplished exactly what they wanted.
Good lord, I don't want to drop another hundred dollars on D&D books, though.
Good lord, I don't want to drop another hundred dollars on D&D books, though.
7
I meant to email you about this last night Paul...and then I got tired and went to sleep instead. (East Coast time, represent!) So I'm glad Tipper Rich got to you.
The problem is that this is an act of desperation. Forget competing with online distractions like WoW...D&D isn't competing with other tabletop RPGs.
What was missing from the article is the real reason for the announcement: Paizo's Pathfinder is eating Wizard of the Coast's 4th Edition lunch. They've been the top RPG for the last two quarters now, and they already crowdsource their playtests, have a strong community, etc.)
No fantasy RPG should have been able to do this. This is WotC's turf. But WotC failed on the writing level. It wasn't just that they put out a rules system that splintered fans...that happens all the time in fandom, and we grumble and buy the books anyway...but that the books were badly written. They were all rules and powers, with little setting, little story, little to spark the imagination.
It's hard to put your finger on—it wasn't like you see editing fails or trite language—but something about 4th Ed. D&D's prose just dies between the page and your eye. You might buy a 4th Ed. D&D book, but you'd never read it a second time, or buy another.
Paizo meanwhile, recruited every great writer—professional and freelance—that's written in the last decade. And it shows. Yes, the gameplay works, yes it's crowdsourced, yes it's playtested, etc., etc...but once you're 6 months to a year into a game's life, it's about the supplemental books, and that means authors and artists. If you love fantasy RPGs right now, you're not writing for WotC...you're writing for Paizo...and that's who we're reading and playing.
The problem is that this is an act of desperation. Forget competing with online distractions like WoW...D&D isn't competing with other tabletop RPGs.
What was missing from the article is the real reason for the announcement: Paizo's Pathfinder is eating Wizard of the Coast's 4th Edition lunch. They've been the top RPG for the last two quarters now, and they already crowdsource their playtests, have a strong community, etc.)
No fantasy RPG should have been able to do this. This is WotC's turf. But WotC failed on the writing level. It wasn't just that they put out a rules system that splintered fans...that happens all the time in fandom, and we grumble and buy the books anyway...but that the books were badly written. They were all rules and powers, with little setting, little story, little to spark the imagination.
It's hard to put your finger on—it wasn't like you see editing fails or trite language—but something about 4th Ed. D&D's prose just dies between the page and your eye. You might buy a 4th Ed. D&D book, but you'd never read it a second time, or buy another.
Paizo meanwhile, recruited every great writer—professional and freelance—that's written in the last decade. And it shows. Yes, the gameplay works, yes it's crowdsourced, yes it's playtested, etc., etc...but once you're 6 months to a year into a game's life, it's about the supplemental books, and that means authors and artists. If you love fantasy RPGs right now, you're not writing for WotC...you're writing for Paizo...and that's who we're reading and playing.
8
PEM has some good points.
The writing is what put AD&D in it's place. And the lack of writing is what pulled it down.
The writing is what put AD&D in it's place. And the lack of writing is what pulled it down.
9
Having an app on an iPad or similar device to help you DM is brilliant. The prospect of balancing all those goddamn numbers and esoteric rules was what made me not want to take on those duties when I was younger.
10
@7
1 year into 3.0's life WotC was coming to grips with revamping/re-releasing the entire system.
1 year into 4.0's life WotC was deciding to euthanize/Essential-ize the system.
6 months to a year into a game's life, the most important issue is whether the company will continue to support the game down the road. The supplemental books (I assume you mean the world guides, adventures and other fluff) only matter if your DM can't be bothered to create their own content, or even just reach back into the three decades of material already published. The best materials are typically made by third parties anyway (see Paizo's rise).
Pathfinder has its faults, but at least Paizo isn't going anywhere. Anything WotC releases will come with an expiration date.
1 year into 3.0's life WotC was coming to grips with revamping/re-releasing the entire system.
1 year into 4.0's life WotC was deciding to euthanize/Essential-ize the system.
6 months to a year into a game's life, the most important issue is whether the company will continue to support the game down the road. The supplemental books (I assume you mean the world guides, adventures and other fluff) only matter if your DM can't be bothered to create their own content, or even just reach back into the three decades of material already published. The best materials are typically made by third parties anyway (see Paizo's rise).
Pathfinder has its faults, but at least Paizo isn't going anywhere. Anything WotC releases will come with an expiration date.
11
WotC is owned by Hasbro. Yes, they started here, and you can still cling to their "local" moniker. But they aren't, really.
12
I like 4th edition. I don't know why other nerds don't. I have theories, but none of them are nice.
13
I never where a big fan of D&D. I've played it since AD&D 2nd ed. but basicly only because one of the groups I play with loved it so much. The problem is that RPG'ers are aging everywhere. In the US, Europe, South America and Asia - its a hobby thats slowly losing members.
So the move to Pen and paper MMORPG was kinda clever. It didn't work, but it was kinda clever and the big up of it was that allot of gamers started to stray into other (and lets face it BETTER) systems and worlds. Like AFMBE or Unknown Armies or Trail of Cthulhu or Burning Wheel.
AD&D worked wonders as an example of the benefits of a violent revolution though and the downsides of reformism. Just slapping new rules to a failing structure does nothing except complicate matters, what you need is an entire overhaul.
So the move to Pen and paper MMORPG was kinda clever. It didn't work, but it was kinda clever and the big up of it was that allot of gamers started to stray into other (and lets face it BETTER) systems and worlds. Like AFMBE or Unknown Armies or Trail of Cthulhu or Burning Wheel.
AD&D worked wonders as an example of the benefits of a violent revolution though and the downsides of reformism. Just slapping new rules to a failing structure does nothing except complicate matters, what you need is an entire overhaul.
15
The books Wizards has been putting out in the last year have been a vast improvement over the largely flavorless "core" books that launched 4e and I think Mike Mearls and Monte Cooke will come up with something interesting for the new rules. 4e has its problems but I have no desire to go back to 3x. I played it for 10 years and its high-level battles got just as bogged down in tactics and detail as any in the new edition. We'll know more after the public playtests later this month but if it winds up sucking I'll probably go with one of the retro clone editions out there. Those in the "Old School Revival" have been doing some really great stuff.
16
I am really getting tired of the 4E bashing. Most of the people who are bashing it have never played it. The game stepped away from the traditional elitist nerd attitude of the previous editions and made it accessible to everyone. Without D&D 4E we would not have seen the resurgence of role playing games that we have had in the past 5 years. Dungeon and Dragons Fourth edition is a well balanced easily understandable system. To say 4E is a failure is like saying every game system that has been published and then later put out a new edition is a failure. That means every edition of D&D is a failure. Pathfinder is then a failure because it was old edition of D&D. I have played 4E since the game launched and created a great group of friends from that experience. Kudos to 4E and what it has done for the gaming community!
18
@10 Um...but that stuff you dismiss as fluff IS supporting the game down the road. World guides, setting guides, etc.—as well as new class books and monsters—is the support!
And most of the time, the 3rd party stuff is definitely not the best—look at the raft of bad d20 publications that came out after 2000. Paizo was an exception, but it was spun off the parent company. Green Ronin and Sword & Sorcery were also exceptions (and S&S was really White Wolf, so you'd expect that). But the best material usually comes from the publisher itself, and even a bad WotC 3rd Ed. book had high standards and production values.
And to be fair, 4th Ed. looked good too, and for many fans—@15, @16, much respect; @12, play nice—they worked. But for the rest of us, the incremental releasing of core material, the constant tweaking and errata, and the slip in the writing/story standards was too much to bear, especially with Pathfinder being so strong immediately out of the gate.
And most of the time, the 3rd party stuff is definitely not the best—look at the raft of bad d20 publications that came out after 2000. Paizo was an exception, but it was spun off the parent company. Green Ronin and Sword & Sorcery were also exceptions (and S&S was really White Wolf, so you'd expect that). But the best material usually comes from the publisher itself, and even a bad WotC 3rd Ed. book had high standards and production values.
And to be fair, 4th Ed. looked good too, and for many fans—@15, @16, much respect; @12, play nice—they worked. But for the rest of us, the incremental releasing of core material, the constant tweaking and errata, and the slip in the writing/story standards was too much to bear, especially with Pathfinder being so strong immediately out of the gate.
19
@7 What do you mean "the writing?" They're goddamned rule books not story books. Do you mean store bought adventures? Because we were always creative enough to write our own.
The notion that 4E is WOW on paper is one I don't get. I have never played WOW so I don't understand how it is similar. I actually like 4E. I like that powers have effects other than just blood loss and damage. I have played D&D since first edition. So...
The notion that 4E is WOW on paper is one I don't get. I have never played WOW so I don't understand how it is similar. I actually like 4E. I like that powers have effects other than just blood loss and damage. I have played D&D since first edition. So...
20
@9- Microsoft loaded up the 4E rules onto their touch screen table device prototype. That's the Ferrari of table top gaming right there.
21
@19 It's everything—the core rules books, the monster books, the sourcebooks (the various race/class books, planar books, the Demonicon/Draconomicon etc.) the setting sourcebooks (Eberron, Forgotten Realms) and yes, the adventures. All that stuff takes authors. We often don't think of rule books having authors, but their imprint is on the book—go compare anything by Monte Cook to Gygax or Rob Heinsoo. You'll notice a difference in style.
And while your group may have used all home-brewed adventures, it's a fair bet the GM took inspiration and stat blocks from published material—very few gaming groups rely on just the three core books and never touch anything else—and if he didn't, that's fine too. It doesn't mean your group was more or less creative. But even the most rule-heavy core book still has flavor text that either sparks imagination...or doesn't. The writing matters.
And while your group may have used all home-brewed adventures, it's a fair bet the GM took inspiration and stat blocks from published material—very few gaming groups rely on just the three core books and never touch anything else—and if he didn't, that's fine too. It doesn't mean your group was more or less creative. But even the most rule-heavy core book still has flavor text that either sparks imagination...or doesn't. The writing matters.
22
@18 I wrote that the best stuff largely came from third party publishers, not that all, or even most, third party materials were good. And maybe 'fluff' is a derogative term to you, but I recognize it as a core component of any game. I just think that the underlying rule system, the 'crunch', matters more at launch, when the system is coming into its own. Fluff can always be made up, borrowed or stolen and then plugged in without too much trouble. Crunch can't. 4E arrived with more than thirty years of accumulated fluff and entirely new crunch. It's obvious where their focus had to be.
4E's incremental tweaking was a feature not a bug, a commitment to fine-tuning the game. Eventually turning that rule tweaking over to people that didn't seem to know the rules in the first place was a major mistake (see the RC), but the system of updating the rules to address the most egregious problems is a policy that I hope will continue. Epic story lines and rich settings are great, but far more games are derailed by player scene-hoarding and DM-fatigue than by a lack of interest in the plot of any given adventure. In my experience, people want to get together with their friends and bullshit for couple hours and they'll invest meaning in just about any story put before them, provided the system is fairly easy to use and doesn't reward their friends for being dicks.
4E's incremental tweaking was a feature not a bug, a commitment to fine-tuning the game. Eventually turning that rule tweaking over to people that didn't seem to know the rules in the first place was a major mistake (see the RC), but the system of updating the rules to address the most egregious problems is a policy that I hope will continue. Epic story lines and rich settings are great, but far more games are derailed by player scene-hoarding and DM-fatigue than by a lack of interest in the plot of any given adventure. In my experience, people want to get together with their friends and bullshit for couple hours and they'll invest meaning in just about any story put before them, provided the system is fairly easy to use and doesn't reward their friends for being dicks.
23
@11 - Wizards' main office is still based in WA - Renton, to be precise. Yeah, I have a lot of friends who work for them...
24
Grognardism, plain and simple. The game needs to be MORE accessible, not less so. Having an eaier rules system won't make it any less of an RPG, and I'm afraid that in heeding the cries of entitled fans WOTC will throw the baby out with the bathwater.
25
I agree with several comments above, that 4.0 is not that bad. From the perspective of this long-time player (back to the 3-book set--sheesh, I'm old), it's an improvement over 3.0/3.5 in systematicity. No fan of any version of the D&D franchise will be served by the commercial failure of WotC, so I am strongly rooting for the new edition, whatever it is. And I can't see how actively soliciting the input of player-customers could possibly hurt. I predict that the new edition will go further than any previous edition in pursuit of a rule system that can be deployed equally effectively in paper-and-pencil mode and in computer RPGs. Since I know nothing about WoW, it is difficult to assess the complaint that 4.0 is too much like it without specifics. If I have one major complaint about 4.0, it is that battles are excruciatingly slow and difficult to DM; much of the machinery (e.g., duration of effects) screams for automation. Meanwhile, level advancement as a function of play time also strikes me as slow. If WotC can fix these problems without giving up too much, the new edition might do better than 4.0.
26
@21 The rule books are fine. Yeah that list of stat number for monsters sure lacks any style. I am not going to compare because I am not an obsessive flappy nerd-pussy. Boo-hoo, the flavor text doesn't speak to me. You're the worst.
27
@26 Awww, my first troll, and related to D&D, no less. You even called me a pussy on the Internet! You're so cute I want to take you home and frame you.
28
I still play 2nd addition and can change the rules to fit anything I feel like playing. I also play ddo with the same people I played with in the library at school 20 years ago. we all agree ddo is a dumbed down "hack and slash" version of the game but it is and easy way to get to gather and kill some BugBears. I don't need a 4th addition.
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