Slog
News & ArtsWednesday, December 28, 2011
Teh Internets Sometimes the Internet Goes Too Far
Posted by Paul Constant on Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 10:33 AM
Yesterday, the STD told you about what happened when Penny Arcade got involved with a douchebag PR person named Paul Christoforo. It was a great little story about a dick who gets his comeuppance, thanks to the internet.
The problem is, the internet does not have an off switch, and now it's getting out of hand:
After picking on an Avenger Controller customer named Dave and gaming giant Mike Krahulik yesterday, Christoforo quickly learned that there are some people who won’t tolerate his thuggish behavior. Even after hurriedly changing his Twitter handle from @OceanMarketting to the equally misspelled @OceanStratagy (and he may switch again), he is still being lambasted.
Now, users have discovered Christoforo's alleged steroid abuse and domestic violence charges and brought them out into the open. Avenger Controller’s replacement PR representative, Eli Schwartz, told Kotaku that Christoforo is “out of business."...[Penny Arcade honcho Mike] Krahulik, who said he’d been bullied as a child, felt no sympathy.
“I think there is a big difference between being sorry and being sorry you got caught,” he wrote. “I feel like Paul is a bully and maybe that’s why I have no sympathy here. Someday every bully meets and even bigger bully and maybe that’s me in this case.”
Look, I'm not defending Christoforo. He's obviously dumb, he seems to be enjoying becoming the Number One Troll on the Internet This Week, and if what the internet has uncovered is true, he's a terrible human being, through and through. But Jesus Christ, people. What is the original thing that happened, here? He sent some mean e-mails. I think he's been suitably punished for that. The best thing to do now is to ignore Christoforo, and let him live out the rest of his life in the prison of ignorance he's already constructed for himself. Not to get Very Special Episode on you here, but the proper way to respond to bullying is not to become more of a bully. The bullies win when that happens. It makes me morally itchy when people on the internet get all uppity about the fact that they were bullied in high school and use that fact as a club against bullies; Christoforo has had enough. Ignore him.
4
Now, now Paul. We know you hate technology but come on.
The problem isn't te internet, it is the people behind their keyboards that go too far.
It would be like pressing charges aganist a gun that fired the bullet which murdered someone instead of the person who pulled the trigger.
The problem isn't te internet, it is the people behind their keyboards that go too far.
It would be like pressing charges aganist a gun that fired the bullet which murdered someone instead of the person who pulled the trigger.
5
Anyone who refuses to use proper grammar and spelling has no business being a PR representative in the first place.
Also, I do not agree. This shithead was mistreating customers. If only every such corporate asshat suffered such consequences.
Also, I do not agree. This shithead was mistreating customers. If only every such corporate asshat suffered such consequences.
6
Gabe has never been the most tactful internet combatant and he is never going to apologize.
Still, is Christoforo actually suffering anything besides humiliation? I don't see how this has gotten out of hand, yet. The dude is being spit-roasted in the court of internet opinion, but what else?
Still, is Christoforo actually suffering anything besides humiliation? I don't see how this has gotten out of hand, yet. The dude is being spit-roasted in the court of internet opinion, but what else?
7
Honestly you are missing an equally important part of PE's "Update"- which is the very valid point that once PE posted the emails to the web they no longer "had the power to stop this." To blame PE for the subsequent and continuing lambasting of Christoforo is really insincere of you.
Not that the two people are even close to the same level but I seem to recall Slog aiding and promoting a certain Internet campaign of retribution against a certain Frothy Mix. A retribution that has hounded the asshole (in my opinion deservedly) for years and will, I hope, forever be synonymous with that byproduct.
But regardless of how horrible he was: how is that any different? Pot, meet kettle.
Frankly this wouldn't be lasting this long if the man wasn't fanning the flames. You said it yourself- he seems to be going back and forth between claiming its ruining his life and that he wants more because it is "free PR". Also it has been a whopping 48 hours or less since this story broke. Give it a day or two more and I'm sure the ADD nature of the Internet will end this.
Anyways that my ramble on this subject: don't get all high and mighty with PE. They've done nothing wrong and I gotta say I respect Mike's honesty about his lack of sympathy more than any insincere attempts to make it seem like he feels bad for this douchebag.
Not that the two people are even close to the same level but I seem to recall Slog aiding and promoting a certain Internet campaign of retribution against a certain Frothy Mix. A retribution that has hounded the asshole (in my opinion deservedly) for years and will, I hope, forever be synonymous with that byproduct.
But regardless of how horrible he was: how is that any different? Pot, meet kettle.
Frankly this wouldn't be lasting this long if the man wasn't fanning the flames. You said it yourself- he seems to be going back and forth between claiming its ruining his life and that he wants more because it is "free PR". Also it has been a whopping 48 hours or less since this story broke. Give it a day or two more and I'm sure the ADD nature of the Internet will end this.
Anyways that my ramble on this subject: don't get all high and mighty with PE. They've done nothing wrong and I gotta say I respect Mike's honesty about his lack of sympathy more than any insincere attempts to make it seem like he feels bad for this douchebag.
8
The thing about the Internet is that you can interact with it. This bully -- who is now experiencing karma -- has the opportunity to engage. He can apologize, offer a discount, promise to change his ways, I don't know, something. I don't like it when the Internet goes too far either, but this guy has yet done anything other than apologize for getting caught (it would seem). And the Internet is mad because we all hate it when we are in the customers shoes in a situation like this.
9
Yesterday, Paul was part of the solution. Today he says he was part of the problem and wants everyone to do as he says, not as he did. You moralizing nerdy twerp. Everyone always said that George would get his comeuppance...
10
You're missing some of the story. Mr. Christoforo had created bad blood w/ other people he worked with (Brandon Liedel), and Dave wasn't the first customer he'd harassed via email. He worked very hard to get where he is today, and I think it's a bit disingenuous to ask that he not reap what he had sowed. When he begged Mike @ Penny Arcade for forgiveness, he trotted out his son as a sympathy prop, forgetting he had used his son as a weapon of insult previously. Instant Karma's gonna get you, gonna knock you about the head.
Seriously, if you want this to go away, do a little practice of what you preach. Stop your posting to Slog, try a little patience yourself: In January, they'll be plenty of other things for the wwebsite an on the internet to kerfuffle over.
Seriously, if you want this to go away, do a little practice of what you preach. Stop your posting to Slog, try a little patience yourself: In January, they'll be plenty of other things for the wwebsite an on the internet to kerfuffle over.
11
This douchebag is learning that there are consequences to bullying behavior. Too fucking bad he didn't learn it earlier in life.
I have no sympathy for him. He's getting what he deserves.
I have no sympathy for him. He's getting what he deserves.
13
Bullshit.
How many times has some d-bag athlete issued the same kind of non-apology solely for getting caught, not for his actual actions?
Well now the d-bag is playing in our arena and we get to call him out not only on his asshole behavior but is BS non-apology as well.
Bullies ONLY learn by getting their asses handed to them, not through some after-school-special validate-everyone's-feelings therapy session.
Fuck him.
How many times has some d-bag athlete issued the same kind of non-apology solely for getting caught, not for his actual actions?
Well now the d-bag is playing in our arena and we get to call him out not only on his asshole behavior but is BS non-apology as well.
Bullies ONLY learn by getting their asses handed to them, not through some after-school-special validate-everyone's-feelings therapy session.
Fuck him.
14
Now all we need to do is equate Christoforo with some really repulsive noun... maybe the week-old funk of 20-something, virgin gamer.
15
Does this remind anyone of the SLOG fuled Internet Vs. "Receipt Creep" Saga of a few months back?
http://lineout.thestranger.com/lineout/a…
http://lineout.thestranger.com/lineout/a…
16
Hey Paul, I hope you're not insinuating that high school bullying isn't a big deal, what with all the kids committing suicide because of it. And I know you're not Dan Savage and you were not responsible for his "frothy mix" campaign, or any of the other times he's turned Sloggers loose on some bigoted high school principal. But you do work at the same paper, and I gotta wonder, have you ever given Dan shit for doing the stuff you're decrying now? Bullying is unacceptable, no matter who does it, where they do it, how they do it, or how old they are. Christoforo deserves whatever he gets.
17
@15, yes, it's the Internet Hate Machine, which knows no difference between a mass murderer and a lousy typist. "He deserves it" is the constant refrain (see above), even though none of the people going after this boob know him or any first-hand details of the situation at all.
In fact, people are still going after the maker of the devices and destroying HIS business too, even though the original purpose of them was to allow disabled children to play games. Check the hundreds of one-star reviews on Amazon, none of them from people who have ever seen one.
What is the appropriate punishment for this guy? He's been fired. In the real world, that's the end of it. Douchebag? The world is filled with douchebags.
In fact, people are still going after the maker of the devices and destroying HIS business too, even though the original purpose of them was to allow disabled children to play games. Check the hundreds of one-star reviews on Amazon, none of them from people who have ever seen one.
What is the appropriate punishment for this guy? He's been fired. In the real world, that's the end of it. Douchebag? The world is filled with douchebags.
18
@17, very similar to the Cook's Source debacle, where people started going after the advertisers in the magazine, who had no idea what had happened, let alone having anything to do with it (if you're not familiar, google the phrase "but honestly monica").
I am always fascinated by the Internet Rage Machine. I think it's a good thing that really awful behavior can have consequences, and I'm always shocked there are people out there who do not understand that the internet is vast and forever...but it invariably turns from righteous indignation and support to a blind hatred and a need for punishment that way outscales the original "crime". Mob mentality at its worst.
Receiptgate showed that sometimes the Internet Rage Machine sets its sights on the wrong target....but very rarely are there any real apologies (I will never set foot in Bimbo's/Cha Cha again for their irresponsibility in that fiasco).
I am always fascinated by the Internet Rage Machine. I think it's a good thing that really awful behavior can have consequences, and I'm always shocked there are people out there who do not understand that the internet is vast and forever...but it invariably turns from righteous indignation and support to a blind hatred and a need for punishment that way outscales the original "crime". Mob mentality at its worst.
Receiptgate showed that sometimes the Internet Rage Machine sets its sights on the wrong target....but very rarely are there any real apologies (I will never set foot in Bimbo's/Cha Cha again for their irresponsibility in that fiasco).
19
If you're going to be a PR flack, don't tell a customer that they have a small penis and expect them to not look up your roid raging domestic abuse.
4chan sometimes goes too far, but this guy deserves to be out of the PR/marketing field. He's a Privileged fucker that's only employed because he "knows people", not for any talent or intelligence.
4chan sometimes goes too far, but this guy deserves to be out of the PR/marketing field. He's a Privileged fucker that's only employed because he "knows people", not for any talent or intelligence.
20
I'm torn. To some extent, I think Paul is right, but on the other hand no one has uncovered anything that he didn't put out there on the Internet himself. Now, if someone hacks into his private accounts (a very real possibility) and distributes that information, that would NOT be okay. But right now it is limited to calling him on his shit.
Though if the maker of the controller is still getting hammered for it, that's not okay. Anyway, it will blow over soon. It's only been a short while since this happened, and the Internet will find something new to amuse itself.
Though if the maker of the controller is still getting hammered for it, that's not okay. Anyway, it will blow over soon. It's only been a short while since this happened, and the Internet will find something new to amuse itself.
21
@15: "Does this remind anyone of the SLOG fuled Internet Vs. "Receipt Creep" Saga of a few months back?"
No, because that was an improperly targeted person that had nothing to do with the dramarama, whereas this is an aggressive flack with anger issues who all but whipped his shriveled beans out over his company's official social networking accounts.
No, because that was an improperly targeted person that had nothing to do with the dramarama, whereas this is an aggressive flack with anger issues who all but whipped his shriveled beans out over his company's official social networking accounts.
23
@19 That's what I saw too. The exchange shows his true nature, which is asshole. This is not a "mistake": it's an indication of personality. The namedropper thing is the worst trait. Bet everyone of those mentioned either despise the guy or never heard of him.
He certainly did not get a PR job because of his communication skills, and he has now cemented his place in the back of the factory. No more customer-facing jobs for him.
He certainly did not get a PR job because of his communication skills, and he has now cemented his place in the back of the factory. No more customer-facing jobs for him.
24
@23: "The namedropper thing is the worst trait. Bet everyone of those mentioned either despise the guy or never heard of him."
I checked CliffyB's twitter, he says he's never had a meeting with the guy. I'm sure the rest are similar, maybe he's introduced himself to a few of them at a party, but this is the one time in his life that he's done something memorable.
@22: "And, since when is rude customer service considered "bullying"?"
When it turns from customer service to calling people "pussies", insult-tossing, "don't you knpw who I am?" etc. His laughable attempts to intimidate are still bullying, even though people more experienced with the internets have heard much worse from far more brilliant trolls.
I checked CliffyB's twitter, he says he's never had a meeting with the guy. I'm sure the rest are similar, maybe he's introduced himself to a few of them at a party, but this is the one time in his life that he's done something memorable.
@22: "And, since when is rude customer service considered "bullying"?"
When it turns from customer service to calling people "pussies", insult-tossing, "don't you knpw who I am?" etc. His laughable attempts to intimidate are still bullying, even though people more experienced with the internets have heard much worse from far more brilliant trolls.
25
The internet allows every insecure nerd and pathetic shut-in to anonymously deputize themselves into a consequence free lynch mob. And when that mob is fueled with a false sense of righteous outrage there is simply no rational way to appeal to their better natures and get them to settle back down. They have get bored first.
Just look here at all the posters calling this guy a "bully" for his illiterate and purely virtual tough-guy act? Really? And then here people are justifying real-world harm-causing bullying. No sense of proportion what so ever. Man, some of you are fucked up.
Just look here at all the posters calling this guy a "bully" for his illiterate and purely virtual tough-guy act? Really? And then here people are justifying real-world harm-causing bullying. No sense of proportion what so ever. Man, some of you are fucked up.
26
The marketing guy was certainly outed as a real shit-weasel, but Jesus the kid the wrote the initial letter was annoying. It really was a customer service match made in hell.
27
All he has to do to get away from this is to shut off his computer off for a couple of days. The guy is a thug and a bully - he's lucky that this is happening on the internet.
28
@55: "Just look here at all the posters calling this guy a "bully" for his illiterate and purely virtual tough-guy act? Really?" Are you fucking kidding me? What else is being a bully?
The last time I saw someone get this deservedly zinged, it was the iamfacingforeclosure asshat. http://www.caseypedia.com/wiki/Main_Page
The last time I saw someone get this deservedly zinged, it was the iamfacingforeclosure asshat. http://www.caseypedia.com/wiki/Main_Page
29
So him getting fired was "just on the internet?"
Look. He's a human being. Just like you. Flawed. With an ego. Maybe had a very bad day. Or, sure, maybe he's a huge asshole, too. So what. He's a nobody. He's not some evil institution that needs to be brought down.
What he is is a stand-in whipping post for all the mean shit some jock did all you nerds so you feel justified in doing whatever you can to bring him down as long as you can remain anonymous. Which is cowardly as shit.
Commerce is on the internet now. He probably should have been fired from his current job - but being exiled from ever working in his field again? What? This guys reputation in that medium could be pretty much ruined. His ability to make a living might be compromised for quite some time. If that's okay with you, then YOU'RE the asshole.
Sure. He was asshole. Yeah? So. Gabe on Penny Arcade is a complete asshole, too. But neither are not that much worse (and in many cases a LOT less worse) that what I have seen here and in dozens of other internet fiefdoms all over. Some posters here, by their own rules, then would deserve to be outed, harassed and economically sanctioned by an internet lynch mob.
Mobs should not be encouraged and are bad because they get out of control and end up inevitably doing fucked shit. It's why we have serious laws in meat-space about them.
But on the internet there is no governance to control these self-anointed light-speed posse's. And you don't have to look very hard to see when they fuck up and do real harm to actual people.
Jesus. High school sucked. Move on, people.
Look. He's a human being. Just like you. Flawed. With an ego. Maybe had a very bad day. Or, sure, maybe he's a huge asshole, too. So what. He's a nobody. He's not some evil institution that needs to be brought down.
What he is is a stand-in whipping post for all the mean shit some jock did all you nerds so you feel justified in doing whatever you can to bring him down as long as you can remain anonymous. Which is cowardly as shit.
Commerce is on the internet now. He probably should have been fired from his current job - but being exiled from ever working in his field again? What? This guys reputation in that medium could be pretty much ruined. His ability to make a living might be compromised for quite some time. If that's okay with you, then YOU'RE the asshole.
Sure. He was asshole. Yeah? So. Gabe on Penny Arcade is a complete asshole, too. But neither are not that much worse (and in many cases a LOT less worse) that what I have seen here and in dozens of other internet fiefdoms all over. Some posters here, by their own rules, then would deserve to be outed, harassed and economically sanctioned by an internet lynch mob.
Mobs should not be encouraged and are bad because they get out of control and end up inevitably doing fucked shit. It's why we have serious laws in meat-space about them.
But on the internet there is no governance to control these self-anointed light-speed posse's. And you don't have to look very hard to see when they fuck up and do real harm to actual people.
Jesus. High school sucked. Move on, people.
30
You. You're a bully if you think the harassment of thousands of people outside of a contained purely voluntary conflict being brought to bare on one person is okay. YOU'RE the problem. This isn't a corrupt politician. This isn't somebody who went out of his way to harass a weaker individual. This is just some tough-guy moron. And the internet and SLOG is filled with them.
All the original person having an issue with his order (indeed, a legitimate problem) needed to do was call the manufacturer. Maybe Gabe could have gotten involved if that didn't work. But now it's out of control.
But I can see I'm wasting my time trying to convince you. So have at it. Though. Be careful what you wish for.
Are you fucking kidding me? What else is being a bully?
You. You're a bully if you think the harassment of thousands of people outside of a contained purely voluntary conflict being brought to bare on one person is okay. YOU'RE the problem. This isn't a corrupt politician. This isn't somebody who went out of his way to harass a weaker individual. This is just some tough-guy moron. And the internet and SLOG is filled with them.
All the original person having an issue with his order (indeed, a legitimate problem) needed to do was call the manufacturer. Maybe Gabe could have gotten involved if that didn't work. But now it's out of control.
But I can see I'm wasting my time trying to convince you. So have at it. Though. Be careful what you wish for.
31
@30: "Look. He's a human being. Just like you. Flawed. With an ego. Maybe had a very bad day. Or, sure, maybe he's a huge asshole, too. So what."
Why don't you go back and read what he said before trying to do your awkward dance of false equivalency?
Because you seem to have a skimmer's understanding of what we're all discussing here.
Why don't you go back and read what he said before trying to do your awkward dance of false equivalency?
Because you seem to have a skimmer's understanding of what we're all discussing here.
32
If you think this guy deserves to keep his job as as a PR flack after tanking the company he was tasked to promote, you're foolish beyond words.
33
This guy has a record of treating people badly. He's gotten away with it because the crappy treatment happened in what he thought was a private space. Now that ugly behavior has been exposed to the rest of the world, and the rest of the world is responding. I don't see anything wrong with that. There are consequences to swaggering around and treating other people like shit.
And seriously, his website - nearly all of which has been plagerized - talks about how knowledgable he is about web culture. So he's been exposed as a fraud on top of everything else.
He'll change his name and land on his feet, and the maker of this by all accounts cool product will benefit from the publicity. Who knows? Maybe Penny Arcade will ask its readers to buy 10,000 of them for Child's Play next year.
And seriously, his website - nearly all of which has been plagerized - talks about how knowledgable he is about web culture. So he's been exposed as a fraud on top of everything else.
He'll change his name and land on his feet, and the maker of this by all accounts cool product will benefit from the publicity. Who knows? Maybe Penny Arcade will ask its readers to buy 10,000 of them for Child's Play next year.
34
I really don't feel bad that the internet is still piling on a guy who decided to act like a jackass in a very public manner while representing his company. He really should have known better.
35
@33: "This guy has a record of treating people badly. He's gotten away with it because the crappy treatment happened in what he thought was a private space. "
Right-o http://courtindex.sdcourt.ca.gov/CISPubl…
He's got lifetime issues with anger, it's not just one bad day.
Right-o http://courtindex.sdcourt.ca.gov/CISPubl…
He's got lifetime issues with anger, it's not just one bad day.
36
See also https://twitter.com/#!/ScottLowe/status/…
"Paul Christoforo's claims that he has my and @IGN's support are UNFOUNDED. I worked with him briefly and he was completely unprofessional."
So it's not just the Channers and PA, the guy managed to become universally hated by the game industry, and not just for this.
https://twitter.com/#!/kevinkelly/status…
https://twitter.com/#!/crecenteb/status/…
https://twitter.com/#!/engadget/status/1…
"Paul Christoforo's claims that he has my and @IGN's support are UNFOUNDED. I worked with him briefly and he was completely unprofessional."
So it's not just the Channers and PA, the guy managed to become universally hated by the game industry, and not just for this.
https://twitter.com/#!/kevinkelly/status…
https://twitter.com/#!/crecenteb/status/…
https://twitter.com/#!/engadget/status/1…
37
Most of us already have been ignoring Christoforo, right from the beginning, but it's not us and it's not Gabe who have him in their jaws now. It's Anonymous. The real Anonymous, I mean, not the small cadre of hackers that local news outlets think is Anonymous. You can't call off the internet until the prey goes down and the hunt is over.
Anyway, as much as this might seem like an overreaction to some snotty emails and bad customer service, I have no sympathy for the guy. He actively picked a fight with a titan who he really, really should have known about if he were actually a professional in his industry, and he didn't back off even once it became clear he was in way over his head. He was that roid-raging drunk asshole in the bar who keeps swinging even when the cops are trying to break up the fight, only the cops in this case were the baying hounds of 4chan.
I mean, no, he certainly doesn't deserve to be strung up, and yes, it's time for reasonable people to let it go, especially if he actually has a wife and kid who are being affected by this. This is not about reasonable people, though! This is about a force of nature. He has become a lolcow, and teenagers on the interwebs are constitutionally incapable of ignoring a lolcow that needs a tipping.
There's a difference between saying that all this is justice, or due process, and just acknowledging that it can't be stopped once it's set in motion and having no real sympathy for a guy who brought it on himself. It's the difference between a lynching and a guy whose last words are, "Hey, check this out!"
Anyway, as much as this might seem like an overreaction to some snotty emails and bad customer service, I have no sympathy for the guy. He actively picked a fight with a titan who he really, really should have known about if he were actually a professional in his industry, and he didn't back off even once it became clear he was in way over his head. He was that roid-raging drunk asshole in the bar who keeps swinging even when the cops are trying to break up the fight, only the cops in this case were the baying hounds of 4chan.
I mean, no, he certainly doesn't deserve to be strung up, and yes, it's time for reasonable people to let it go, especially if he actually has a wife and kid who are being affected by this. This is not about reasonable people, though! This is about a force of nature. He has become a lolcow, and teenagers on the interwebs are constitutionally incapable of ignoring a lolcow that needs a tipping.
There's a difference between saying that all this is justice, or due process, and just acknowledging that it can't be stopped once it's set in motion and having no real sympathy for a guy who brought it on himself. It's the difference between a lynching and a guy whose last words are, "Hey, check this out!"
40
I still haven't seen anything about what effect this is really having on the guy beyond the immediately evident. He's still an asshole and he's still totally unfit for any kind of a PR job, and as best I can tell the only ongoing abuse is A) people are calling him an asshole and B) his reputation as a PR rep is still being torpedoed.
We don't know what his exact employment situation is. We don't know what his employment prospects are like because we don't know what he's going to do and what companies are going to consider or not consider him. Nobody can smugly claim to have destroyed him utterly and nobody can tearfully fret over his livelihood because we are still merely 36 hours into this whole thing. As much fun as it is to speak of the future in absolutes, it doesn't quite work that way.
I guess you could assume there have been death threats or his family is being harassed or something, since that's sort of assumed in any kind of big internet brouhaha like this, but until there's actual confirmation that that has happened it doesn't really do any good to assume there's more punishment going on than there actually is.
(Although I guess you could argue that his family is at risk because now he can't get a job in the PR/marketing fields, but then, he is quite clearly terrible at PR and marketing, so...)
We don't know what his exact employment situation is. We don't know what his employment prospects are like because we don't know what he's going to do and what companies are going to consider or not consider him. Nobody can smugly claim to have destroyed him utterly and nobody can tearfully fret over his livelihood because we are still merely 36 hours into this whole thing. As much fun as it is to speak of the future in absolutes, it doesn't quite work that way.
I guess you could assume there have been death threats or his family is being harassed or something, since that's sort of assumed in any kind of big internet brouhaha like this, but until there's actual confirmation that that has happened it doesn't really do any good to assume there's more punishment going on than there actually is.
(Although I guess you could argue that his family is at risk because now he can't get a job in the PR/marketing fields, but then, he is quite clearly terrible at PR and marketing, so...)
41
Anyone who has fully read this saga, including the time Christoforo did it to somebody else - and got some blowback for that, too, and apologized ONLY when that happened - knows that Christoforo is a bully. That is not hyperbole, it is not a rush to judgment, it is not a misconception. It is a fact. You can't conclude otherwise.
It's hard, too, when you realize that this is has been going on for a long time, to feel much sympathy for the manufacturer of the controller either - they were aware of what was going on, or were willfully blind to it, both of which are unacceptable.
Paul, "The bullies win when that happens" is the most cliched thing you could have said about this. Bullies only understand force. It's too soon to label Gabe from Penny Arcade with that label, just because he flexed his muscle here.
It's hard, too, when you realize that this is has been going on for a long time, to feel much sympathy for the manufacturer of the controller either - they were aware of what was going on, or were willfully blind to it, both of which are unacceptable.
Paul, "The bullies win when that happens" is the most cliched thing you could have said about this. Bullies only understand force. It's too soon to label Gabe from Penny Arcade with that label, just because he flexed his muscle here.
42
@41: "Bullies only understand force."
I'd say that spousal abusers who make their living from their interactions with others also understand social sanctions, a social force is not at the very least not a violent force.
I'd say that spousal abusers who make their living from their interactions with others also understand social sanctions, a social force is not at the very least not a violent force.
43
I completely agree, Paul. I used to be a huge Penny Arcade fan, and felt like I was a member of the gaming community as a whole but over the years I feel like I've grown up and they really haven't.
It's one thing to show someone that their actions were unprofessional, it's another to retaliate or to use your "celebrity" power to influence action against an individual, even if you were bullied as a kid. Because honestly, a lot of us were bullied. And getting over it is a huge part of becoming an adult.
It's one thing to show someone that their actions were unprofessional, it's another to retaliate or to use your "celebrity" power to influence action against an individual, even if you were bullied as a kid. Because honestly, a lot of us were bullied. And getting over it is a huge part of becoming an adult.
44
Everyone on this page who is defending this guy & appalled, appalled I tell you, at how this has fallen out, has also demonstrated their ignorance of the full situation. It's all there online, all you need to do is click the links, google 'ocean marketing,' --you know, get to know the facts that you are opining upon.
And for all the hand-wringing over the actual device, well, *that* has gotten more PR than Christoforo could ever provide.
Paul, you're dead wrong on this one. Perhaps you & others don't like the idea of people suffering, how very noble of you. But when the sufferer has gone out of his way to bring that suffering upon themselves, all your 'noble ideals' actually just enable the assholes.
And for all the hand-wringing over the actual device, well, *that* has gotten more PR than Christoforo could ever provide.
Paul, you're dead wrong on this one. Perhaps you & others don't like the idea of people suffering, how very noble of you. But when the sufferer has gone out of his way to bring that suffering upon themselves, all your 'noble ideals' actually just enable the assholes.
45
you guys are forgetting something, his asshole behavior is tanking the company he was hired to represent. A company with a cool product for [i]disabled kids[/i] who had been generally ignored in the industry.
48
@ 44, I couldn't have put it better. Everyone, please read that comment, especially the last paragraph.
49
@ 46, thanks for that. He's misrepresenting what was said, even though we can go right to the source and see it for ourselves. He's claiming to have lost only the "one account," but given that he was lying about who his clients were (and being told by those companies not to identify them as such anymore), and that some sleuths found his website was wholesale plagiarized, it's likely that the manufacturer was his one and only client.
The guy is an unrepentant bullshit artist. Anyone here who decried what happened to him did not do their homework.
The guy is an unrepentant bullshit artist. Anyone here who decried what happened to him did not do their homework.
50
Mike Krahulik is a dickhead. But so is this Ocean Marketing guy. So, I'm calling this one a wash.
51
@47: I'm was saying the Internet goon squad is not "just as bad" because they use mean words. Social sanctions are a perfectly good and just response to someone who's an unrepentant ass.
52
Fun drama. Paul seems thoroughly twisted, in his "do you know who I am?!" attitude and utter disinterest in being decent to anyone whom he deems to have inadequate status for his respect. His "apology" to Mike for not knowing how influential he was was bizarre in missing the point, and he seems to forget (or not care) that the one he owes the apology to is Dave, the customer who asked perfectly reasonable questions until he was bullied.
I think the internet would be a whole lot more forgiving of this douchebag if he would say sorry to the right person. And saying, "I should've been nicer," is not the same as saying, "I shouldn't have been such a dick."
I think the internet would be a whole lot more forgiving of this douchebag if he would say sorry to the right person. And saying, "I should've been nicer," is not the same as saying, "I shouldn't have been such a dick."
53
Lots of people here have said this better than me, but Paul, you're wrong.
tkc, you're wrong too.
tkc, you're wrong too.
54
No, 53. Paul is right. You're wrong.
The problem is that you're wrong with a large group of people who are also wrong. So none of you are stopping, looking around and going, "Holy fuck, we're being way bigger cunts than this guy. Maybe we should chill."
This is one of those things that makes me hope SOPA destroys the internet.
The problem is that you're wrong with a large group of people who are also wrong. So none of you are stopping, looking around and going, "Holy fuck, we're being way bigger cunts than this guy. Maybe we should chill."
This is one of those things that makes me hope SOPA destroys the internet.
55
Constant, you're wrong. As has been said above, your boss, Mr. Savage can be just as big a dickhead as Mike K. There have been PLENTY of times he's called upon his flying monkeys for retribution to somebody whom he HASN'T EVEN TALKED TO. Largely, school principals and other such folks who have done things of actual damage. But, even Mr. Frothy Mix himself has seen the Christoforo Effect.
And, frankly, Christoforo still hasn't gotten it. He isn't sorry he was an asshole. He's sorry the gaming community found out he was an asshole. He's sorry he got caught. He's sorry that people uncovered random shit about him. He's sorry he didn't realize that he'd become an internet joke for a couple of days.
Christoforo wouldn't have deserved it if he had actually DONE HIS FUCKING JOB and created a standard form e-mail that said "We're sorry about the delay. There has been some problems with international shipments. The controller will not be delivered until...yadda yadda yadda." That's what you're supposed to do, at minimum. With a rightfully frustrated customer who merely wanted some answers in the beginning, that's all they're looking for is an answer or two. If you can't do that without insulting the customers, perhaps you should look for a different line of work.
And, if internet PR is your job...getting into an internet tiff with one of the founders of a rather popular convention is kind of like getting a really bad review. Yes, he should lose his job since he actually sucks at his job. Incompetence is a real meat-space actual reason for losing your job. And he was truly incompetent. I'm not going to say its justice. But, if more incompetent people got fired for incompetence, the world might be a better place.
And, frankly, Christoforo still hasn't gotten it. He isn't sorry he was an asshole. He's sorry the gaming community found out he was an asshole. He's sorry he got caught. He's sorry that people uncovered random shit about him. He's sorry he didn't realize that he'd become an internet joke for a couple of days.
Christoforo wouldn't have deserved it if he had actually DONE HIS FUCKING JOB and created a standard form e-mail that said "We're sorry about the delay. There has been some problems with international shipments. The controller will not be delivered until...yadda yadda yadda." That's what you're supposed to do, at minimum. With a rightfully frustrated customer who merely wanted some answers in the beginning, that's all they're looking for is an answer or two. If you can't do that without insulting the customers, perhaps you should look for a different line of work.
And, if internet PR is your job...getting into an internet tiff with one of the founders of a rather popular convention is kind of like getting a really bad review. Yes, he should lose his job since he actually sucks at his job. Incompetence is a real meat-space actual reason for losing your job. And he was truly incompetent. I'm not going to say its justice. But, if more incompetent people got fired for incompetence, the world might be a better place.
56
Don't really know Christoforo. Don't care. There's a huge line of out-of-work PR professionals who would kill for his job that know not to leave a space after a sentence and before a period, like so . I mean , what the fuck *is* that ?
57
Gabe - Mike Krahulik - has never made any secret of the fact that he's a socially awkward, cripplingly anxious nerd who came from a problematic family situation and suffered an intolerable amount of bullying growing up.
Maybe his response when he sees someone acting like a bully isn't totally calm and measured, but I think it's reasonable, and perfectly understandable. The guys at Penny Arcade have never pretended to be paragons or perfectly mature adults. That's one reason I still like them, all these years later: they are who they are, and they're dealing with growing up as it comes, one thing at a time. I think they're more adult for that than the vast majority of people who just accept that there are certain ways you act at certain ages and certain times, just because.
Sorry, Paul, and others in this thread, but you're on the wrong side on this one, These are good guys, flawed, human, but good guys, and they went to bat for one of their own here in spite of the problems it might cause them, because they could handle those problems, and because they thought they should.
Which is more than most of us would do.
@54, maybe you need to check out my comment @37. It's not as if any of us, or anyone at Penny Arcade, are the ones doing, well, whatever it is you think is being done. I don't know what kind of "cunts" you think "we" are being, so maybe you ought to spell that out? What "we" are doing wrong and who "we" are?
Maybe his response when he sees someone acting like a bully isn't totally calm and measured, but I think it's reasonable, and perfectly understandable. The guys at Penny Arcade have never pretended to be paragons or perfectly mature adults. That's one reason I still like them, all these years later: they are who they are, and they're dealing with growing up as it comes, one thing at a time. I think they're more adult for that than the vast majority of people who just accept that there are certain ways you act at certain ages and certain times, just because.
Sorry, Paul, and others in this thread, but you're on the wrong side on this one, These are good guys, flawed, human, but good guys, and they went to bat for one of their own here in spite of the problems it might cause them, because they could handle those problems, and because they thought they should.
Which is more than most of us would do.
@54, maybe you need to check out my comment @37. It's not as if any of us, or anyone at Penny Arcade, are the ones doing, well, whatever it is you think is being done. I don't know what kind of "cunts" you think "we" are being, so maybe you ought to spell that out? What "we" are doing wrong and who "we" are?
58
@56 As bad as the disconnected period is, at least this dude didn't pick up this habit which my illiterate relatives have: finishing every sentence with this...no capitalization for the next sentence...my mother's somehow decided it is acceptable and now all her emails and texts end like this too...as though she's always trailing off...thinking of something else...i can't tell her to knock it off because she would get upset...
It was amusing to read Christoforo boasting about his mad PR skills while writing like a seventh grader, as it always is with these sorts.
Getting back to the discussion at hand, I do still think Paul is partly right on this one because of the potential for the mob to do legitimately nasty, prolonged damage to this guy. There's no sense of restraint in pointing out his assholery - which I'm torn about, because he deserves it, but it's only a matter of time before someone goes too far (re: my comment above @20). Nourishing a culture of restraint *might* prevent that. Tkc is wrong; this guy deserved to lose his job, and to never engage in any line of work like this again (not that he had the skills for it in the first place). But where is the logical end point? For some people, it may not be until his privacy is totally destroyed - his email, maybe his SSN, maybe his address - and that's what makes me uneasy. There's not evidence of this yet, of course, but there's the potential.
It was amusing to read Christoforo boasting about his mad PR skills while writing like a seventh grader, as it always is with these sorts.
Getting back to the discussion at hand, I do still think Paul is partly right on this one because of the potential for the mob to do legitimately nasty, prolonged damage to this guy. There's no sense of restraint in pointing out his assholery - which I'm torn about, because he deserves it, but it's only a matter of time before someone goes too far (re: my comment above @20). Nourishing a culture of restraint *might* prevent that. Tkc is wrong; this guy deserved to lose his job, and to never engage in any line of work like this again (not that he had the skills for it in the first place). But where is the logical end point? For some people, it may not be until his privacy is totally destroyed - his email, maybe his SSN, maybe his address - and that's what makes me uneasy. There's not evidence of this yet, of course, but there's the potential.
59
Paul Comstant, defender of civility, paragon of measured response. Calmer of mobs, voice of reason.
Bwahahahahahahahaha, sorry, I just had to see what it looked like on screen. *snort*
(bonus laugh: now imagine what Paul would have written had this been an Amazon PR rep)
Bwahahahahahahahaha, sorry, I just had to see what it looked like on screen. *snort*
(bonus laugh: now imagine what Paul would have written had this been an Amazon PR rep)
60
@58: so you're saying that people who haven't gone too far should back off lest other people go too far? Would this be like the way gays shouldn't marry lest it encourage folks who want to marry animals? The reasonable need to back off on their reasonable behavior to save us all from the unreasonable?
61
@60 Why are these analogous situations? Surely there's a difference between the slippery slope of "well if he sticks it in a MAN, he MUST stick it in a goat!" compared to "hey this guy's a bully, he deserves anything he gets."
62
@60 I suppose what I'm most for at the moment is for people who haven't gone too far to say "okay, this is enough. We can keep talking about this guy and what's already out there, but let's not pry into his personal situation any further."
63
The best thing to do now is to ignore Christoforo, and let him live out the rest of his life in the prison of ignorance he's already constructed for himself.It's not a prison when you can't (or refuse to) see the bars.
64
@61: you misrepresented my position. I'm saying that Paul's suggestion that reasonable people who have not crossed the line should mellow out to prevent OTHER people from crossing the line is analogous to the "if we let him stick it in a man, what's to stop someone else sticking it in a goat?" argument. Both ask people to refrain from legitimate behavior to deter hypothetical anonymous people from engaging in illegitimate behavior. Capiche?
65
I don't think anyone's done any kind of serious 'prying' into this guy's life thus far, actually. The guy's got an easily Googleable name and basically spewed out his private life onto the internet in a way that co-mingled it with his 'professional' PR work. His Facebook page was entirely public, his Myspace page still existed (seriously, people, delete those things already), and his contact information was right in each and every one of his emails. The only thing you could even argue he was attempting to hide was his steroid use, but that was discovered because the solicited advice for dealing with the effects of his steroid use to the same email that he used to *impersonate a former colleague*. He's left behind a hilariously large amount of low-hanging fruit.
66
@55: "Christoforo wouldn't have deserved it if he had actually DONE HIS FUCKING JOB and created a standard form e-mail that said "We're sorry about the delay. There has been some problems with international shipments. The controller will not be delivered until...yadda yadda yadda." That's what you're supposed to do, at minimum."
He's a PR hack, it's not even his job to do grunt-level customer service, just to smile and nod and forward the email to the proper people.
Instead he goes mad with power like a mall security guard. I KNOW PEOPLE. I CAN DESTROY YOU. YOU ARE NOTHING.
He's a PR hack, it's not even his job to do grunt-level customer service, just to smile and nod and forward the email to the proper people.
Instead he goes mad with power like a mall security guard. I KNOW PEOPLE. I CAN DESTROY YOU. YOU ARE NOTHING.
67
@66 Actually, the way that the CEO of the company who makes the controller made it sound was that he was hired to be the CS rep over the Xmas break. I dunno if this was explicitly clear to anybody (nor do I know if it is true), but it seemed that way.
68
'[T]he proper way to respond to bullying is not to become more of a bully. The bullies win when that happens.'
Wrong. The bullies don't win. They get the shit kicked out of them, which is precisely what they deserve. Fuck ’em.
Wrong. The bullies don't win. They get the shit kicked out of them, which is precisely what they deserve. Fuck ’em.
69
@65,
Have you ever tried deleting a MySpace account? It's impossible, and not in the Facebook sense that they keep your records around in case you change your mind.
They won't let you delete your account without responding to an email confirmation and they won't let you change your email. Since the email I used to sign up for my account is now defunct, my MySpace account will exist until someone finally puts MySpace out of its misery.
Have you ever tried deleting a MySpace account? It's impossible, and not in the Facebook sense that they keep your records around in case you change your mind.
They won't let you delete your account without responding to an email confirmation and they won't let you change your email. Since the email I used to sign up for my account is now defunct, my MySpace account will exist until someone finally puts MySpace out of its misery.
70
@69: "Have you ever tried deleting a MySpace account? It's impossible"
As far as I'm aware, they found his Myspace account under the free email account he's currently using for his "professional" emails.
As far as I'm aware, they found his Myspace account under the free email account he's currently using for his "professional" emails.
71
A lot of people are coming to Christoforo's defense, but it seems you truly haven't read the full story.
Read the emails at the very least. This guy wasn't just rude to a customer. He crossed a line and he *isn't* sorry about it. In fact, his non-apologies don't even smack of "I'm sorry I got caught." He's truly unrepentant and he's playing the victim. I don't believe Christoforo feels he did anything wrong. He deserved to lose his job for this.
Gabe (Mike) played the card brilliantly and the sense of irony is truly something to behold. Christoforo was bullying a customer with a "you're nobody so you don't deserve respect, I have the power here." I think that's where the base visceral reaction comes when you read the emails. Someone stood up for the little people because he had that power. As Gabe wrote "Yes, I am an asshole. But I try to be *your* asshole."
And I think the biggest thing here is that people are making a lot of judgements based on what Christoforo has claimed (he has shown to be a compulsive liar) has happened to him. The thing is, internet trolls and hackers are assholes, but they know the internet. I honestly don't think they would take it too far because they understand how the internet works. If they do something that really crosses a line, they turn Christoforo into a true victim...they know that. They don't want that. They want him to be a pariah, and they see he wants to be the martyr. I don't think they will let him have the title.
Read the emails at the very least. This guy wasn't just rude to a customer. He crossed a line and he *isn't* sorry about it. In fact, his non-apologies don't even smack of "I'm sorry I got caught." He's truly unrepentant and he's playing the victim. I don't believe Christoforo feels he did anything wrong. He deserved to lose his job for this.
Gabe (Mike) played the card brilliantly and the sense of irony is truly something to behold. Christoforo was bullying a customer with a "you're nobody so you don't deserve respect, I have the power here." I think that's where the base visceral reaction comes when you read the emails. Someone stood up for the little people because he had that power. As Gabe wrote "Yes, I am an asshole. But I try to be *your* asshole."
And I think the biggest thing here is that people are making a lot of judgements based on what Christoforo has claimed (he has shown to be a compulsive liar) has happened to him. The thing is, internet trolls and hackers are assholes, but they know the internet. I honestly don't think they would take it too far because they understand how the internet works. If they do something that really crosses a line, they turn Christoforo into a true victim...they know that. They don't want that. They want him to be a pariah, and they see he wants to be the martyr. I don't think they will let him have the title.
72
@71: "A lot of people are coming to Christoforo's defense, but it seems you truly haven't read the full story. "
Same as always, the people don't like him so much as they hate "untoward" people who make waves and say what they really feel, more so than actual jerks!
It's a form of tone-trolling and false (lazy) even-handedness, as I see it. http://pharyngula.wikia.com/wiki/Tone_tr…
Agreed that they haven't read the full story, but they really have no desire to. They just want to be on the other side of any argument.
Same as always, the people don't like him so much as they hate "untoward" people who make waves and say what they really feel, more so than actual jerks!
It's a form of tone-trolling and false (lazy) even-handedness, as I see it. http://pharyngula.wikia.com/wiki/Tone_tr…
Agreed that they haven't read the full story, but they really have no desire to. They just want to be on the other side of any argument.
73
Matt from Denver & TheMisanthrope have it right. When you read through and see the plagiarized website as well as the email string, you see someone who has been making bad decisions at every turn. Some of his actions rise to that of the bully: he shows respect only to those he perceives as being above him, and heaps scorn, etc on those he perceives are below him. He spouts adage-like wisdom (watch the way you talk to people you never know who they know) without ever absorbing the lesson.
It's the train wreck of someone claiming his level of expertise in a field while so completely showing a total lack of ability in said field. Dina Martina, move over.
It's the train wreck of someone claiming his level of expertise in a field while so completely showing a total lack of ability in said field. Dina Martina, move over.
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