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News & ArtsWednesday, December 28, 2011
Savage Love SL Letter of the Day: How'd I Miss That?
Posted by Dan Savage on Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 2:22 PM
God dammit, Dan!
Sorry, I know I'm writing to the gay sex columnist instead of the poly sex columnist, but well, you're important and I feel like I've got to check something in your last column.
I'm just doing a little requisite wailing and gnashing of teeth at the corollary implicitly drawn that the young lady whose fuckbuddy wants to go mono is doing so out of a feeling of "romance" and not plain-old attachment and/or possessiveness. Left dignified is the writer's assertion that "he likes me enough to be monogamous," leaving untouched that classic suggestion that if you're not monogamous, it's because you don't care enough about your partner.
Anyway, thanks again a million for what you do, sorry that I only write snarky emails every so often when something slips by about how poly people are just a bunch of flaky sex fiends.
Grumpy Reader Into Poly Experience
My response after the jump...
···············
Hmm... that was a pretty big error on my part, GRIPE, considering that I'm in a monogamish relationship myself and I happen to be absolutely crazy about my husband—still, after 17 years together. I should've challenged CCC on that assertion, for sure. But I also need to challenge your assertion: feelings of attachment and/or possessiveness and romantic feelings are not mutually exclusive. A person in a healthy-enough-for-all-practical-purposes romantic relationship—even a person in a HEFAPP non-monogamous relationship—can experience feelings attachment, possessiveness, and even jealousy. I know that I do and have and expect I will again.
1
Jealousy? Hmmm, when letter writers express even a hint of it, the internet monkeys usually come flying in, finger wagging and for-shaming. But something tells me they're going to leave this confession of it alone.
2
"—can experience feelings attachment, possessiveness, and even jealousy. "
The human experience tis a beautiful thing, hopefully it is more sweet than bitter. Our feelings, the lovely and the ugly, are what makes us feel alive. I guess the goal is to live it well and honestly. Just some "waiting on the orthodontist" musing, though.
The human experience tis a beautiful thing, hopefully it is more sweet than bitter. Our feelings, the lovely and the ugly, are what makes us feel alive. I guess the goal is to live it well and honestly. Just some "waiting on the orthodontist" musing, though.
3
Only a particularly sanctimonious breed of idealist says that no one should ever feel jealousy, or that it isn't a natural part of the human experience. I definitely noticed the same thing GRIPE did, Dan, and I appreciate the conditional retraction.
As far as your point, I do agree with you, of course, but I also think it was something of a non sequitur. GRIPE never said possessiveness and romance were mutually exclusive, only that it's wrong to mistake one for the other. I feel like you were being a little unduly defensive.
As far as your point, I do agree with you, of course, but I also think it was something of a non sequitur. GRIPE never said possessiveness and romance were mutually exclusive, only that it's wrong to mistake one for the other. I feel like you were being a little unduly defensive.
4
On the second point, GRIPE's reasoning is flawed. The first letter suggests that if CCC's partner wants to be monogamous, he likes her. GRIPE thinks this implies that, as he doesn't want to be monagamous, he doesn't care about his partner. But it doesn't imply that at all (see "Denying the antecedent" on Wikipedia).
5
@3: Only a particularly sanctimonious breed of idealist says that no one should ever feel jealousy
Hmm. I've noticed a lot of people here consider any expression of jealousy from a male to indicate that he's the controlling and abusive type.
Hmm. I've noticed a lot of people here consider any expression of jealousy from a male to indicate that he's the controlling and abusive type.
6
I think maybe it might be a difference in values.
TL;DR- In poly-land, jealousy is a sin like infanticide, in non-poly-land, jealousy is a sin like accidentally kicking someone in the shin.
*****
Long version-
When one looks at polyamory as a subculture one of the big obsessions of that subculture is jealousy.
If you look at the articles, workshops, discussion groups, etc.,etc. you'll see that jealousy as a topic comes up with almost distressing regularity(For the poly people in the crowd, tell me I'm wrong. I dare you. I double dog dare you). My theory on this is that it is because for many people who do poly jealousy is something that comes up early and often(that and arcane theories of time management).
Because jealousy(and its close friends attachment and possessiveness) are focused on so greatly it becomes a really sore spot for people who are poly.
However, for people that are monogamish or just monogamous, jealousy(though still bad) is not the huge deal that it is for people who are poly.
TL;DR- In poly-land, jealousy is a sin like infanticide, in non-poly-land, jealousy is a sin like accidentally kicking someone in the shin.
*****
Long version-
When one looks at polyamory as a subculture one of the big obsessions of that subculture is jealousy.
If you look at the articles, workshops, discussion groups, etc.,etc. you'll see that jealousy as a topic comes up with almost distressing regularity(For the poly people in the crowd, tell me I'm wrong. I dare you. I double dog dare you). My theory on this is that it is because for many people who do poly jealousy is something that comes up early and often(that and arcane theories of time management).
Because jealousy(and its close friends attachment and possessiveness) are focused on so greatly it becomes a really sore spot for people who are poly.
However, for people that are monogamish or just monogamous, jealousy(though still bad) is not the huge deal that it is for people who are poly.
7
A => B is the same as ~B =>~A, but not the same as ~A => ~B.
So "monogamous" => "loving" equals "not loving" => "not monogamous."
It is NOT the same as saying "not monogamous" => "not loving."
So "monogamous" => "loving" equals "not loving" => "not monogamous."
It is NOT the same as saying "not monogamous" => "not loving."
8
A => B is the same as ~B =>~A, but not the same as ~A => ~B.
So "monogamous" => "loving" equals "not loving" => "not monogamous."
It is NOT the same as saying "not monogamous" => "not loving."
So "monogamous" => "loving" equals "not loving" => "not monogamous."
It is NOT the same as saying "not monogamous" => "not loving."
9
@ GhostDog (6): In poly-land, jealousy is a sin like infanticide
O gods, I hope not.
I mean, most of the poly people I know are my partners (wife of 12 years, boyfriend of 6, girlfriend of 3), so I may not be all that familiar with the ways of the poly community. But jealousy is a feeling, not a sin. My wife never feels jealous; I feel it often, our other partners are somewhere in the middle. I find it inconvenient, but there it is; feelings are feelings.
As far as I can tell, being jealous or not is hard-wired, and on a spectrum (like which sex(es) you're attracted to, or how much you like sex, or whether you're kinky, etc). Not a sin, not something everyone feels... just one possible variant.
I'm not willing to give up my other partners, and it wouldn't be reasonable to ask my wife (and my partners) to do so when I won't, so I just deal with being jealous. Unpleasant, but part of life.
O gods, I hope not.
I mean, most of the poly people I know are my partners (wife of 12 years, boyfriend of 6, girlfriend of 3), so I may not be all that familiar with the ways of the poly community. But jealousy is a feeling, not a sin. My wife never feels jealous; I feel it often, our other partners are somewhere in the middle. I find it inconvenient, but there it is; feelings are feelings.
As far as I can tell, being jealous or not is hard-wired, and on a spectrum (like which sex(es) you're attracted to, or how much you like sex, or whether you're kinky, etc). Not a sin, not something everyone feels... just one possible variant.
I'm not willing to give up my other partners, and it wouldn't be reasonable to ask my wife (and my partners) to do so when I won't, so I just deal with being jealous. Unpleasant, but part of life.
10
@6, as a poly person, I've found that jealousy in itself is not a crime or a sin. It's all in how you manage it. I was extremely jealous of one of my girlfriend's other partners. I told her how I felt, and also that I knew it was my own issue to deal with. She gave me space on it, and I got over it. How'd that happen? Patience, on both our parts. Over time, our relationship solidified, and I got to know him a little better. The jealousy just evaporated.
11
if you're not monogamous,
it IS because you don't care enough about your partner.
Does that clear it up for you?
it IS because you don't care enough about your partner.
Does that clear it up for you?
12
7,8...nice work.
How about this one:
Subject "D" thinks everyone should be treated equally under the law regarding marriage, specifically that everyone should be able to legally marry whom they love.
D also believes some people are innately polyamorous, and that it is unrealistic and unfair to expect them to be monogamous.
Therefore, ipso fatso, one would conclude that D would endorse allowing polyamorous people to marry the people they love, if they so choose.
Can you make one of those formulas to explain it?
And will the formula account for the fact that if D in fact thinks their relationship preference should be legally recognized as marriage but thinks poly people should be locked up if they marry the people they love then they are hypocritical shit?
Thankx.....
How about this one:
Subject "D" thinks everyone should be treated equally under the law regarding marriage, specifically that everyone should be able to legally marry whom they love.
D also believes some people are innately polyamorous, and that it is unrealistic and unfair to expect them to be monogamous.
Therefore, ipso fatso, one would conclude that D would endorse allowing polyamorous people to marry the people they love, if they so choose.
Can you make one of those formulas to explain it?
And will the formula account for the fact that if D in fact thinks their relationship preference should be legally recognized as marriage but thinks poly people should be locked up if they marry the people they love then they are hypocritical shit?
Thankx.....
13
Hmm... that was a pretty big error on my part, GRIPE, considering that I'm in a monogamishit relationshit myself and I happen to be absolutely crazy about my husband as demonstrated by the fact that I have only cheated 9 (Nine) times (that I've admitted...) in the six years we have been "married" —
14
I don't get this. I understand that you can be monogamish, or just plain open or poly, without it diluting your feelings for your primary partner. And I understand that poly/open couples can be head over heels in love. But what is wrong with saying that a man being willing to give up his swinging single days shows a lever of love? No one ever said it was the ONLY show of love possible, or a stronger show of love than others, just that it was one possible show of love. He loves me enough to be monogamous. She could have said He loves me enough to move in with me, or He loves me enough to marry me. But for some reason acknowledging that monogamy is a hard road and takes some level of commitment to strive for is tantamount to yelling "And all you polies are just sex fiends!"? This is why monogamists get upset when the monogamish start touting how evolved and free they are and how restrictive and archaic monogamy is. Monogamy is just another in a long list of options to show love. You guys can pick another option for yourself but don't act like the one the LW chose doesn't count or somehow is personally insulting to you.
16
@14 I think that isn't the point trying to be made. As a poly person, I certainly think that for people who prefer exclusivity and are aiming for that in a relationship that asking for and offering exclusivity can be a sign of love. However, I think the point being made is that it is not always a sign of love. Sometimes it is a sign of possessiveness and a desire to control your partner. And sometimes it's simply a sign that someone dislikes openness in even their most casual sexual relationships, but shows no particular love beyond what was already established by wanting to be in the relationship. It could just be a sign that the person wants to be with you or that the person wants to explore whether being with you will work out. Basically, you shouldn't read too much into whether or not somebody wants to be exclusive without knowing a bit about the person and what it means to them.
As to jealousy and poly, most poly people I know expect jealousy to pop up, at least a little, now and then. But it's something you deal with. I think jealousy isn't an issue except when it is a sign of a deeper problem in the relationship or when someone doesn't know how to handle it maturely. I think some people are just prone toward jealousy, and it's harder for them. If you're strongly prone toward jealousy, then you may be happier in an exclusive relationship. But jealousy is often an indication of a problem, such as feeling insecure in the relationship. It's good to think about whether it is a warning signal of an actual problem - maybe you and your partner really are drifting apart - or maybe it's just a temporary passing phase as you get used to some change, as it was for commenter in comment #10. Personally, I find that when my relationships are strong and healthy, I don't experience jealousy regardless of whether or not my partner is involved with other people, which is convenient for me. But people vary, so I don't think jealousy is always a sign of a problem in the relationship.
More...
As to jealousy and poly, most poly people I know expect jealousy to pop up, at least a little, now and then. But it's something you deal with. I think jealousy isn't an issue except when it is a sign of a deeper problem in the relationship or when someone doesn't know how to handle it maturely. I think some people are just prone toward jealousy, and it's harder for them. If you're strongly prone toward jealousy, then you may be happier in an exclusive relationship. But jealousy is often an indication of a problem, such as feeling insecure in the relationship. It's good to think about whether it is a warning signal of an actual problem - maybe you and your partner really are drifting apart - or maybe it's just a temporary passing phase as you get used to some change, as it was for commenter in comment #10. Personally, I find that when my relationships are strong and healthy, I don't experience jealousy regardless of whether or not my partner is involved with other people, which is convenient for me. But people vary, so I don't think jealousy is always a sign of a problem in the relationship.
17
@9 and @10
With respect(even though I will admit to using some traditional Celtic hyperbole in the TL;DR) I think you actually proved my point.
In my experience in poly circles jealousy is seen as a negative thing to overcome and is usually viewed as something that is the responsibility of the person feeling jealous to overcome. It is extremely rare in cases of jealousy that there is perceived to be a sense of "shared culpability" and any assistance provided by anyone else is seen as a "gratuitous grace"(with apologies to Aldous Huxley).
In the case of both of you, @9 and @10, you saw jealousy as something that was your problem and that it was a serious problem that you needed to resolve(and made it a priority to resolve that issue). Much like someone who needed to purify themselves of..a mortal sin.
For the sake of total disclosure. I was very badly burned by a poly relationship not so long ago(That whole "shared culpability" thing? It turns out that sometimes jealousy does have a cause and that you really will be pushed out of a 5 year relationship for someone that is better than you. Who knew?) and so I might come off as bitter, mean, or harsh. This is not because I feel either of you personally are wrong, you are doing the lifestyle wrong, or that poly is wrong,. It's because I am very bitter.
With respect(even though I will admit to using some traditional Celtic hyperbole in the TL;DR) I think you actually proved my point.
In my experience in poly circles jealousy is seen as a negative thing to overcome and is usually viewed as something that is the responsibility of the person feeling jealous to overcome. It is extremely rare in cases of jealousy that there is perceived to be a sense of "shared culpability" and any assistance provided by anyone else is seen as a "gratuitous grace"(with apologies to Aldous Huxley).
In the case of both of you, @9 and @10, you saw jealousy as something that was your problem and that it was a serious problem that you needed to resolve(and made it a priority to resolve that issue). Much like someone who needed to purify themselves of..a mortal sin.
For the sake of total disclosure. I was very badly burned by a poly relationship not so long ago(That whole "shared culpability" thing? It turns out that sometimes jealousy does have a cause and that you really will be pushed out of a 5 year relationship for someone that is better than you. Who knew?) and so I might come off as bitter, mean, or harsh. This is not because I feel either of you personally are wrong, you are doing the lifestyle wrong, or that poly is wrong,. It's because I am very bitter.
18
Interesting idea, jealousy as sin, rather than as feeling. Or in a weaker version, jealousy as a reaction that you should get over, because it is basically unhealthy (like a neurosis, or at least a little obsession).
Maybe.
But since jealousy is not even inherently sexual or romantic -- you can be jealous of things you own or activities you enjoy and don't want to share with others -- and this is not always seen as illegitimate, I don't think jealousy also has to be inherently wrong.
Very few things in life are cast in black and white. I don't think jealousy is. Like so many other things, it's case-by-case. Plus also the factor mentioned above that, in life, the exact nature of one's feelings is less important than what one does about them, how one acts after one realizes one has them.
Maybe.
But since jealousy is not even inherently sexual or romantic -- you can be jealous of things you own or activities you enjoy and don't want to share with others -- and this is not always seen as illegitimate, I don't think jealousy also has to be inherently wrong.
Very few things in life are cast in black and white. I don't think jealousy is. Like so many other things, it's case-by-case. Plus also the factor mentioned above that, in life, the exact nature of one's feelings is less important than what one does about them, how one acts after one realizes one has them.
19
@ Ghostdog (17)--
Oh, I'm sorry that happened to you. That sucks.
I don't see jealousy as a thing to "resolve" though. I used to think of it as something that was, as you say, "a negative thing to overcome." But years of trying made it clear to me that, for me, "overcoming" it just wasn't going to happen. No amount of processing or patience or time or therapy was going to make me not jealous.
And, as my girlfriend pointed out, that's fine. Jealousy is useful; it points out to you, very clearly, what you value and what you want to keep. When I'm feeling jealous, I use that-- it lets me know how things are going with my partner(s), whether there's anything that I want from them that I'm not getting and ought to ask for. The correct thing for me to say turns out not to be "hey, stop doing what you're doing with your other partner(s)"-- what's much more useful is, "hey, I miss you/want you/want to show you affection/etc." Properly used, jealousy can keep me attuned to my desires and my partners.
It's still not pleasant, mind you, and I envy the people who never feel it. But *shrug* that's not how I'm wired, so I might as well make the best of it.
Oh, I'm sorry that happened to you. That sucks.
I don't see jealousy as a thing to "resolve" though. I used to think of it as something that was, as you say, "a negative thing to overcome." But years of trying made it clear to me that, for me, "overcoming" it just wasn't going to happen. No amount of processing or patience or time or therapy was going to make me not jealous.
And, as my girlfriend pointed out, that's fine. Jealousy is useful; it points out to you, very clearly, what you value and what you want to keep. When I'm feeling jealous, I use that-- it lets me know how things are going with my partner(s), whether there's anything that I want from them that I'm not getting and ought to ask for. The correct thing for me to say turns out not to be "hey, stop doing what you're doing with your other partner(s)"-- what's much more useful is, "hey, I miss you/want you/want to show you affection/etc." Properly used, jealousy can keep me attuned to my desires and my partners.
It's still not pleasant, mind you, and I envy the people who never feel it. But *shrug* that's not how I'm wired, so I might as well make the best of it.
20
@16 uncreative,
I agree that the root of jealousy lies in insecurity. Insecurity comes in many forms however, and trying to track down and deal with them all is essentially impossible. I wonder if lack of jealosy is a mark of faith in one's partners, or in one's self (or both).
Personally I don't get jealous, but I am very protective. Perhaps part of that situation arises from being married/in a very LTR, and knowing that I don't have to hide my feelings but I do have to behave in a fashion acceptable to my wife/partner. Understanding your partner's needs, and their understanding of yours, makes situations where jealousy might arise less likely because you take care to protect each other.
Peace.
I agree that the root of jealousy lies in insecurity. Insecurity comes in many forms however, and trying to track down and deal with them all is essentially impossible. I wonder if lack of jealosy is a mark of faith in one's partners, or in one's self (or both).
Personally I don't get jealous, but I am very protective. Perhaps part of that situation arises from being married/in a very LTR, and knowing that I don't have to hide my feelings but I do have to behave in a fashion acceptable to my wife/partner. Understanding your partner's needs, and their understanding of yours, makes situations where jealousy might arise less likely because you take care to protect each other.
Peace.
21
I'm seeing a lot of generalizations about poly people in here from people that I don't think are poly, which strikes me as a little wrong, you know?
For example, jealousy - A sin as bad as infanticide, really? Do you read the things you write? - is only a problem when it's misdirected jealous behavior. I don't think that anyone except that class of generally immature, overzealous types I mentioned earlier have any problem with someone coming to their partner(s) and saying, "I'm feeling jealous about X thing or person and I would like to talk about it and figure out what is bothering me and how we can deal with it."
I don't know if any of you listen to Polyamory Weekly, but there especially, and more generally across poly-land, the refrain is always "Open and honest communication," not "Feel no jealousy."
For example, jealousy - A sin as bad as infanticide, really? Do you read the things you write? - is only a problem when it's misdirected jealous behavior. I don't think that anyone except that class of generally immature, overzealous types I mentioned earlier have any problem with someone coming to their partner(s) and saying, "I'm feeling jealous about X thing or person and I would like to talk about it and figure out what is bothering me and how we can deal with it."
I don't know if any of you listen to Polyamory Weekly, but there especially, and more generally across poly-land, the refrain is always "Open and honest communication," not "Feel no jealousy."
22
Honestly, jealousy can happen in any kind of relationship, mono or poly, gay or straight. I knew a guy who married young whose wife got upset and jealous whenever he went out of the house - even when it was to go to college.
Jealousy isn't a crime, or even necessarily a problem. IMO, the problem arises in *what you do with it*. If a person is going to have a complete melt-down screaming tantrum whenever they feel jealous, then that is a problem for them and for the person/people they are in a relationship with. This behaviour is likely to damage the relationship, because either said partner/s will leave the screamer, or because they will fudge the truth in future to avoid a scene. Or both, consecutively.
Some people prefer mono relationships, some people prefer poly; both are perfectly valid to me. People who prefer poly relationships and also experience a large amount of jealousy over those relationships have to ask themselves whether their poly relationships are worth it to them. If, like the commenter above, they decide it is, then they have to deal with it in the best way they can, without damaging the relationships they have, just as said commenter is doing. It's about working to maintain your preferred status quo, despite the difficulties.
That said, as I pointed out before, there can be massive jealousy issues in mono relationships too. A girl once threatened to slash my little sister's face with a broken beer bottle because she had seen my sister talking to her boyfriend. My sister had no interest in this guy beyond casual friendship, and she was only 13.
So there it is. Mono can't completely defend against jealousy, and poly doesn't necessarily 'cause' it. To me, it's just about learning how to deal with and express our emotions without ruining our relationships with the people who are important to us. However jealous we feel, we have to deal with it constructively if we want to maintain happy, healthy relationships. In the same way, however tired and disinclined to work we feel, we still have to get up and work if we want to keep our jobs. That's life, isn't it?
More...
Jealousy isn't a crime, or even necessarily a problem. IMO, the problem arises in *what you do with it*. If a person is going to have a complete melt-down screaming tantrum whenever they feel jealous, then that is a problem for them and for the person/people they are in a relationship with. This behaviour is likely to damage the relationship, because either said partner/s will leave the screamer, or because they will fudge the truth in future to avoid a scene. Or both, consecutively.
Some people prefer mono relationships, some people prefer poly; both are perfectly valid to me. People who prefer poly relationships and also experience a large amount of jealousy over those relationships have to ask themselves whether their poly relationships are worth it to them. If, like the commenter above, they decide it is, then they have to deal with it in the best way they can, without damaging the relationships they have, just as said commenter is doing. It's about working to maintain your preferred status quo, despite the difficulties.
That said, as I pointed out before, there can be massive jealousy issues in mono relationships too. A girl once threatened to slash my little sister's face with a broken beer bottle because she had seen my sister talking to her boyfriend. My sister had no interest in this guy beyond casual friendship, and she was only 13.
So there it is. Mono can't completely defend against jealousy, and poly doesn't necessarily 'cause' it. To me, it's just about learning how to deal with and express our emotions without ruining our relationships with the people who are important to us. However jealous we feel, we have to deal with it constructively if we want to maintain happy, healthy relationships. In the same way, however tired and disinclined to work we feel, we still have to get up and work if we want to keep our jobs. That's life, isn't it?
23
It sounds like, in the case of the original letter, that this "old friend" she decided to become fuck buddies with was a dude who has been stuck in her friend-zone for a while. He probably let her assume what she wanted about the situation until the actual subject of her fucking other people came up, then his hand slipped and his cards showed.
An open, just-fuck-buddies relationship was never something this guy wanted to do or expected to be able to handle, so all this poly talk is missing the point. This is really about the dangers of being ignorant about your own friend-zone and what it's doing to the person stuck in it.
An open, just-fuck-buddies relationship was never something this guy wanted to do or expected to be able to handle, so all this poly talk is missing the point. This is really about the dangers of being ignorant about your own friend-zone and what it's doing to the person stuck in it.
24
@22 is right that monogamy doesn't prevent jealousy and poly doesn't cause it. Poly also doesn't keep relationships from ending... as noted by GhostDog...So sorry for your pain.
25
@24
Thank you. One of the reasons I'm a Savage reader now is to try to evaluate if I even want to date again, if sexuality is even worth it. I know that, for me, poly isn't worth it. For some people it's pretty awesome. For me it was like living in a James Joyce novel.
Thank you. One of the reasons I'm a Savage reader now is to try to evaluate if I even want to date again, if sexuality is even worth it. I know that, for me, poly isn't worth it. For some people it's pretty awesome. For me it was like living in a James Joyce novel.
26
as a poly woman in a 5 woman family, I can easily say I get jealous, even when I trust my wife and 3 lovers (we laughingly call them the sister-wives) completely. It is usually totally about how I am feeling about myself, rather than something anyone is doing.
We are much more likely to tiff about leaving drawers and cabinets open, which I am given to understand is the butch's equivalent of leaving the toilet seat up. I don't care for it.
We are much more likely to tiff about leaving drawers and cabinets open, which I am given to understand is the butch's equivalent of leaving the toilet seat up. I don't care for it.
27
@25, here is more sympathy for your ordeal. I'm sorry to hear you had to go through such a sad experience, and here's hoping you'll find yourself in better situations in the future.
Indeed, I agree with the last few posts that monogamy doesn't (always) prevent jealousy and polyamory doesn't (always) cause it. Every situation is a different situation, with people with various backgrounds feeling various things (including insecurity) and -- more importantly -- reacting differently to their feelings. To me, the most important thing is what you do about, how you act with, your feelings.
@21(balderdash), I'm not poly nor have I ever been (at least not in the sense of being part of a poly community), but the poly friends I have tell me you're right. Jealousy is not seen as a sin, and the mantra is "open communication." I suppose there's a certain group of people who think that being "modern" or "progressive" or "open-minded" or "real poly" implies never ever feeling any jealousy, but judging by my friends and what they say these people don't seem to be the majority.
Indeed, I agree with the last few posts that monogamy doesn't (always) prevent jealousy and polyamory doesn't (always) cause it. Every situation is a different situation, with people with various backgrounds feeling various things (including insecurity) and -- more importantly -- reacting differently to their feelings. To me, the most important thing is what you do about, how you act with, your feelings.
@21(balderdash), I'm not poly nor have I ever been (at least not in the sense of being part of a poly community), but the poly friends I have tell me you're right. Jealousy is not seen as a sin, and the mantra is "open communication." I suppose there's a certain group of people who think that being "modern" or "progressive" or "open-minded" or "real poly" implies never ever feeling any jealousy, but judging by my friends and what they say these people don't seem to be the majority.
28
Mr Ghost - James Joyce? Interesting choice. Good luck with your decision, whichever way it turns out. At least it's nice that you apparently still have some choice in the matter.
29
I'll say it again: "loves her enough to be monogamous" is a particular unit of information that applies to monogamous people, and is not to be confused with the more general "loves her enough." Letter Writer, that implicit corollary is only being drawn in your mind, and only because you are not being careful in your sentence parsing.
As to what is going on inside the head of the fuck-buddy-who-wants-to-go-mono from the original letter -- whether it is that he is falling for her romantically, versus he's a possessive,controlling, jealous jerk -- that can only be answered by that person. I will say that your agenda to put him in the latter camp is sufficiently transparent that I have more cause to discount it than I do the letter itself.
As to what is going on inside the head of the fuck-buddy-who-wants-to-go-mono from the original letter -- whether it is that he is falling for her romantically, versus he's a possessive,controlling, jealous jerk -- that can only be answered by that person. I will say that your agenda to put him in the latter camp is sufficiently transparent that I have more cause to discount it than I do the letter itself.
30
@28 Well, it was either "James Joyce" or "Schrodinger's relationship status" and I'm on a Robert Anton Wilson kick today so JJ it was. What happened with me is that I was never really "single"(since I did have a significant other) but at the same time since my significant other at the time split her bandwidth between me, another guy, two girls, and a job I can't say I had a "relationship" in the sense that most people think of it. The relationship status wasn't alive or dead.
I did misstate myself, though. I should have said, "I am not sure if I want to try to date anymore". For all I know I'll get back on the market and find dating as someone who is monogamous to be just as challenging as dating as a poly guy(although by dint of numbers I am not sure). For now, though, I'm working on getting healed from the last relationship and trying to become a better person(yes, I know, long way to go but one step at a time).
I did misstate myself, though. I should have said, "I am not sure if I want to try to date anymore". For all I know I'll get back on the market and find dating as someone who is monogamous to be just as challenging as dating as a poly guy(although by dint of numbers I am not sure). For now, though, I'm working on getting healed from the last relationship and trying to become a better person(yes, I know, long way to go but one step at a time).
31
@23 Then it's his fault for being dishonest about his desires and intentions. People who consider themselves "friend-zoned" are usually people who didn't honestly communicate with the person they are involved with. If he wanted an actual relationship, he should have said so when the friends with benefits thing came up. Misleading someone you claim to care about isn't nice, and it doesn't get you much sympathy in my book.
32
@5: I'm one of those, conditionally. "Jealousy" is used to refer to a number of different emotional states, and the distinction is important here, though. One meaning is desiring something someone else has ("I'm so jealous of your new car!"); I don't think that one is intrinsically dysfunctional, though it can lead people to engage in antisocial behaviors ("I'm going to smash up your new car because I'm jealous of you having it!"). We could perhaps use the term "desirous" instead of "jealous" to make the distinction clear. Another meaning is wanting something to the exclusion of everyone else. I do think this one is intrinsically dysfunctional, and doubly so when we're talking about dictating the behaviors of others, as it involves, by definition, not just someone feeling a certain way, but dictating behaviors or states of existence for the rest of the human population ("My jealous boyfriend doesn't want me to go out with male friends ever," or "You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me"). Dictating the behaviors of others (in cases where those behaviors do not have a direct impact on one - I consider impacts resulting from socialized understandings of behaviors to be indirect, as they have to be granted meaning by the social norm, so "cheating" has indirect impacts, unless it involves involuntary exposure to STIs) denies them agency, which is abusive and controlling.
That said, we can't really directly control how we FEEL in response to certain things (though we can modify the emotional responses that we have to certain situations/triggers over time), so it's not so much feeling jealous that's problematic (for others; it sucks to feel jealous, so it's certainly problematic for oneself) as certain behavioral responses to feeling jealous. I also don't mean to suggest that it's inappropriate to have conditions or expectations for behaviors within a relationship, but these need to be a) egalitarian, b) explicitly stated, and c) agreeable to both parties.
Also, there's a difference between conditions for a relationship and controlling a partner's behavior. "I don't date women who spend time with other men, so if you hang out with your male friends ever, I'm breaking up with you," is a pretty fucked-up sentiment, but not abusive, as it specifies the conditions for the continuation of the relationship without necessarily dictating the partner's behavior. Contrast that to, "You can't ever spend time with other men," which has an implied threat (sometimes made explicit) and attempts to control the other's behavior. In the second case, the relationship and the control of its terms are assumed and the behaviors of those involved are conditional; in the first case, the relationship itself is conditional upon the behaviors of those involved. If you want the example to sound a little less out there, replace "spend time"/"hang out" with "have sex"; the principle is the same.
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That said, we can't really directly control how we FEEL in response to certain things (though we can modify the emotional responses that we have to certain situations/triggers over time), so it's not so much feeling jealous that's problematic (for others; it sucks to feel jealous, so it's certainly problematic for oneself) as certain behavioral responses to feeling jealous. I also don't mean to suggest that it's inappropriate to have conditions or expectations for behaviors within a relationship, but these need to be a) egalitarian, b) explicitly stated, and c) agreeable to both parties.
Also, there's a difference between conditions for a relationship and controlling a partner's behavior. "I don't date women who spend time with other men, so if you hang out with your male friends ever, I'm breaking up with you," is a pretty fucked-up sentiment, but not abusive, as it specifies the conditions for the continuation of the relationship without necessarily dictating the partner's behavior. Contrast that to, "You can't ever spend time with other men," which has an implied threat (sometimes made explicit) and attempts to control the other's behavior. In the second case, the relationship and the control of its terms are assumed and the behaviors of those involved are conditional; in the first case, the relationship itself is conditional upon the behaviors of those involved. If you want the example to sound a little less out there, replace "spend time"/"hang out" with "have sex"; the principle is the same.
33
@32, I think you're leaving out at least one, possibly other, kinds of situations we refer to as 'jealousy'. In your example of the new car, you consider A being jealous of B's new car, but you don't consider B's being jealous of it; yet it is, in my experience, much more frequent that someone who owns something s/he values (say, a new car) wants to deny other people access to it, a sentiment which I think is also "jealousy". (In my native country, Brazil, at least, we can say things like "she's jealous of her books", meaning she won't lend them to other people because she's afraid -- more than reason dictates -- that they'll come back damaged. Can't you say such things in American English?)
In fact, come to think of it, the very idea of private property is based on the idea that it is legitimate to want to deny access to one's property to other people -- to the point of, say, shooting trespassers. Even though Christian religion suggests we should share our possessions, and despite injunctions like "mi casa, su casa", it would seem most people in America feel it is OK to not want to share one's prized possessions with others. Unless you support some kind of communal ownership of all goods, wouldn't you say this kind of jealousy, at least, is legitimate?
Things become more problematic once we enter the realm of human relations, of course, and that's when jealousy becomes fraught with the danger of unfairness and abuse. I will go as far as saying that it is wrong to let jealousy dictate the behavior of others ('my jealous girlfriend won't let me look at porn'), but do you think the feeling itself is necessarily illegitimate and wrong? After all, some relationship jealousy is simply the fear that our partner, whom we love, may someday stop loving us. Isn't this something legitimate to feel afraid of? (There are other, much less legitimate, sources of this feeling, like possessiveness about one's partner; these I exclude since I indeed agree they are wrong.)
Of course, jealousy as it is currently practiced is based on a rather simplistic model, namely that our partner will only stop loving us if s/he meets and starts relationships other people; even though there is a statistical correlation there, it's certainly true that partners can stop loving each other without ever having had affairs, and that they can go on loving each other despite multiple simultaneous affairs, so the jealousy model is obviously too simple. But isn't its source -- the fear of losing love -- of at least some of the cases of jealousy legitimate, i.e. the person shouldn't feel ashamed of feeling it? (This is, of course, no excuse for acting abusively on one's jealousy; I'm merely saying that feeling jealous doesn't have to imply desiring to be abusive, or desiring to possess or otherwise objectify one's partner.)
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In fact, come to think of it, the very idea of private property is based on the idea that it is legitimate to want to deny access to one's property to other people -- to the point of, say, shooting trespassers. Even though Christian religion suggests we should share our possessions, and despite injunctions like "mi casa, su casa", it would seem most people in America feel it is OK to not want to share one's prized possessions with others. Unless you support some kind of communal ownership of all goods, wouldn't you say this kind of jealousy, at least, is legitimate?
Things become more problematic once we enter the realm of human relations, of course, and that's when jealousy becomes fraught with the danger of unfairness and abuse. I will go as far as saying that it is wrong to let jealousy dictate the behavior of others ('my jealous girlfriend won't let me look at porn'), but do you think the feeling itself is necessarily illegitimate and wrong? After all, some relationship jealousy is simply the fear that our partner, whom we love, may someday stop loving us. Isn't this something legitimate to feel afraid of? (There are other, much less legitimate, sources of this feeling, like possessiveness about one's partner; these I exclude since I indeed agree they are wrong.)
Of course, jealousy as it is currently practiced is based on a rather simplistic model, namely that our partner will only stop loving us if s/he meets and starts relationships other people; even though there is a statistical correlation there, it's certainly true that partners can stop loving each other without ever having had affairs, and that they can go on loving each other despite multiple simultaneous affairs, so the jealousy model is obviously too simple. But isn't its source -- the fear of losing love -- of at least some of the cases of jealousy legitimate, i.e. the person shouldn't feel ashamed of feeling it? (This is, of course, no excuse for acting abusively on one's jealousy; I'm merely saying that feeling jealous doesn't have to imply desiring to be abusive, or desiring to possess or otherwise objectify one's partner.)
34
@32, I think "envious" is a better word for your first case. If I am envious of your new car, it means I wish I was lucky enough to have one too. If I am jealous of your new car, it means I think you're spending too much time out driving it instead of hanging out with me, or that I'm afraid you prefer your car over me.
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