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News & ArtsMonday, December 26, 2011
Sports
Hoop Puck Dreams
Posted by Goldy on Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 9:06 AM
Something called "the NBA" apparently started their season yesterday. Locally, it was a non-event that might have gotten more attention here in Seattle if we actually had a team, a situation that might be remedied if a group of wealthy investors have their way and build a new arena a couple blocks south of Safeco Field.
If these investors want to spend their own money to build an arena and move in a team, more power to them, as long as they don't expect much help from state or local taxpayers. But not much of a basketball fan myself, I was personally less than excited by the news, until I dug a little deeper into the article:
Hansen is working with a Bellevue man who would like to bring an NHL professional hockey team to Seattle to play in the arena, according to the source, who did not know the name of the Eastside participant.
An NHL team? Fuck yeah! Go Seattle Metropolitans! It's past time to bring the Stanley Cup back to Seattle. (You know, as long as it doesn't cost much taxpayer money.)
1
Don't worry Goldy...we'll pay for it. We always do. Remember no one was too thrilled at the $1 Billion in stadiums that are already down there so what's another $500 to $750 Million in stadiums?
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@2: I'm enough of a realist to recognize that sports teams bring some economic benefits that are worth incentivizing, and beyond that, certain intangible benefits that are less easy to quantify, so I wouldn't automatically oppose on principle some limited public subsidy. But no... the era of taxpayer-funded half-billion dollar arenas is over, at least around here, and at least for now.
6
http://www.npr.org/2011/08/05/139018592/…
For politicians eager to embrace sports deals, it's easy to find consulting firms willing to produce glowing "economic impact studies" — even though sports economists nearly unanimously dismiss them as hogwash...
Even where elected officials have gotten smarter about rejecting subsidies, the sports industry is increasingly outmaneuvering them...
Jim Nagourney, who spent three decades negotiating stadium deals on behalf of government agencies and team owners, describes how he helped snooker city officials as a consultant to the Los Angeles Rams... "The city was poorly represented — the city is always poorly represented... We put in all of these ridiculous things, and the city didn't have the sense to say no to any of them..."
7
They're never going to let you have a hockey team. It would take too much money away from Vancouver.
8
Can we put it in Bellevue? The 520 and I-90 sucks every game already, and you morons didn't let it improve.
9
What you should expect is that a new arena would keep the 10% parking tax to help pay for facility maintenance and that the mayor won't complain about it as he did with the parking tax at Safeco.
Even when these facilities find a way to do the right thing, the right way, people will complain.
Goldy, if an arena that has both indoor winter time sports, NHL and NBA, paying the bills then the need for subsidy is pretty much eliminated.
As long as somebody is proposing both sports to use it then there is less to worry about. Any one sport on their own could not support building an arena on their own.
What you would see are a bunch of user fees and taxes paying for the street, sidewalk, interfacing infrastructure changes that happen in and around a large facility.
www.ArenaSolution.org
Even when these facilities find a way to do the right thing, the right way, people will complain.
Goldy, if an arena that has both indoor winter time sports, NHL and NBA, paying the bills then the need for subsidy is pretty much eliminated.
As long as somebody is proposing both sports to use it then there is less to worry about. Any one sport on their own could not support building an arena on their own.
What you would see are a bunch of user fees and taxes paying for the street, sidewalk, interfacing infrastructure changes that happen in and around a large facility.
www.ArenaSolution.org
10
@6 here's how it works. the government releases the glowing studies. opponents of the stadium file a public records request for all studies. The government lies, stalls, and easily lets the vote happen -- the stadium wins by a hair. Then the government stalls for four more years, then is ordered to release the thousands of pages of studies and is ordered by the court to pay hundreds of thousands in public records act fines, plus hundreds of thousands more in attorneys fees. Oh wait, what about how they stole the democracy in not releasing the studies BEFORE the election?
wa=waaaaa too bad for the public.
wa=waaaaa too bad for the public.
11
Had we not built these stupid stadiums the same tax pools could have gone to a huge rail system with multiple lines, benefitting the economy about 50x more.
there is an economic benefit to throwing dollars on mercer street and QA ave south, that doens't mean we should do it.
there is an economic benefit to throwing dollars on mercer street and QA ave south, that doens't mean we should do it.
12
7@, the distance between Vancouver and the Seattle area is too great to interfere with the Canucks ability to draw. Plus, they have enough of a dedicated fan base that an extra franchise next door won't make a difference; furthermore, the NHL wants a franchise in the Seattle area in the worse way--it likes our demographics and an extra west coast satellite.
I'm not counting on an imminent solution to this arena situation: Not enough property has been purchased to build an arena; Not enough local people with deep pockets with an interest in professional sports willing to pitch in with their own $$$; political infighting over the traffic situation in the SODO area; and infighting over even minimal government support for a new arena given budget cuts and the city and county level may end up dooming the potential for a new facility.
I'm not counting on an imminent solution to this arena situation: Not enough property has been purchased to build an arena; Not enough local people with deep pockets with an interest in professional sports willing to pitch in with their own $$$; political infighting over the traffic situation in the SODO area; and infighting over even minimal government support for a new arena given budget cuts and the city and county level may end up dooming the potential for a new facility.
13
@Goldy: I'm not sure that the numbers back that up.
A new sports facility has an extremely small (perhaps even negative) effect on overall economic activity and employment. No recent facility appears to have earned anything approaching a reasonable return on investment. No recent facility has been self-financing in terms of its impact on net tax revenues. Regardless of whether the unit of analysis is a local neighborhood, a city, or an entire metropolitan area, the economic benefits of sports facilities are de minimus.
http://www.brookings.edu/articles/1997/s…
A new sports facility has an extremely small (perhaps even negative) effect on overall economic activity and employment. No recent facility appears to have earned anything approaching a reasonable return on investment. No recent facility has been self-financing in terms of its impact on net tax revenues. Regardless of whether the unit of analysis is a local neighborhood, a city, or an entire metropolitan area, the economic benefits of sports facilities are de minimus.
http://www.brookings.edu/articles/1997/s…
14
@11, that is fucking stupid.
Do you really think people would pay $25 and a 10% parking tax at light rail stations to pay for all that?
Do you really think the Washington Restaurant Association would support a .5% food and beverage tax to support light rail?
How about another $2 on your light rail, metro, ticket?
And the King County hotel tax?
Car rental businesses would be first in line to be taxed to support an alternate mode of transportation, oh ya, they are right there for ya.
If any of these were remotely possible then it would be seeing them come up as ballot measures now.
If the King County hotel tax wasn't earmarked for 4Culture and services to get homeless youth off the street you wouldn't have to walk an extra block to wait for a bus. Get right on killing that now so you can achieve transportation utopia.
Do you really think people would pay $25 and a 10% parking tax at light rail stations to pay for all that?
Do you really think the Washington Restaurant Association would support a .5% food and beverage tax to support light rail?
How about another $2 on your light rail, metro, ticket?
And the King County hotel tax?
Car rental businesses would be first in line to be taxed to support an alternate mode of transportation, oh ya, they are right there for ya.
If any of these were remotely possible then it would be seeing them come up as ballot measures now.
If the King County hotel tax wasn't earmarked for 4Culture and services to get homeless youth off the street you wouldn't have to walk an extra block to wait for a bus. Get right on killing that now so you can achieve transportation utopia.
16
@1 "Remember no one was too thrilled at the $1 Billion in stadiums that are already down there "
The Seahawk / Sounder stadium cost taxpayers 300 million (of the 400 mil total costs for stadium, parking and exhibition center). Paul Allen paid 100 mill of his own money and covered cost overruns. Safeco field was about 430 million, but the state had to sue the Mariners to get them to honor the original agreement to pay for cost overuns (100 mill). So both stadiums cost the state about 630 million total, not a billion dollars.
Nobody wanted the Mariners stadium (voted and rejected), but the simple majority approved a new stadium for the Seahawks. Century Link field gets alot more use thanks to the Sounders and all the restaurants and bars in the area sure do appreciate that. Its also a host to small concerts, boat shows, comic / game conventions (things SLOG promotes), etc, in the exhibition center.
Without these stadiums, there would be no incentive to host major concerts in Seattle, Tacoma Dome has a greater capacity than Key Arena and I dont think the University of Washington has ever allowed a concert to be held at Husky Stadium.
The Seahawk / Sounder stadium cost taxpayers 300 million (of the 400 mil total costs for stadium, parking and exhibition center). Paul Allen paid 100 mill of his own money and covered cost overruns. Safeco field was about 430 million, but the state had to sue the Mariners to get them to honor the original agreement to pay for cost overuns (100 mill). So both stadiums cost the state about 630 million total, not a billion dollars.
Nobody wanted the Mariners stadium (voted and rejected), but the simple majority approved a new stadium for the Seahawks. Century Link field gets alot more use thanks to the Sounders and all the restaurants and bars in the area sure do appreciate that. Its also a host to small concerts, boat shows, comic / game conventions (things SLOG promotes), etc, in the exhibition center.
Without these stadiums, there would be no incentive to host major concerts in Seattle, Tacoma Dome has a greater capacity than Key Arena and I dont think the University of Washington has ever allowed a concert to be held at Husky Stadium.
17
Make them play in Key Arena. If they aren't willing to play in Key Arena, then they're probably going to pack up and go to Oklahoma at the first chance anyway.
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@16: How many concerts have been held at the new stadiums? There was U2 and there was, uh...who else?
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@13, that is true, and remarkably few sports facilities are built using that model this century. 1997 is over, everybody knows it except Oklahoma City, and Orlando.
They over spent on the team, taxed themselves to remodel an existing arena, and gave a 12 year break on the state's B&O tax to Clay Bennett. Three strikes there.
If Orlando could also support an NHL team then they wouldn't have the problems they have.
Also, the NHL and NBA have woken up to the fact that they both need similar things from a facility, and that by sharing a facility they can resolve the first issue.
You well see more and more team shaking up with each other in cities that are not shitholes like OKC. That's why you see the Sacramento Kings seeing the 10-year-old Honda Center in Anaheim occupied by the Ducks as a viable situation.
They over spent on the team, taxed themselves to remodel an existing arena, and gave a 12 year break on the state's B&O tax to Clay Bennett. Three strikes there.
If Orlando could also support an NHL team then they wouldn't have the problems they have.
Also, the NHL and NBA have woken up to the fact that they both need similar things from a facility, and that by sharing a facility they can resolve the first issue.
You well see more and more team shaking up with each other in cities that are not shitholes like OKC. That's why you see the Sacramento Kings seeing the 10-year-old Honda Center in Anaheim occupied by the Ducks as a viable situation.
21
@17, are you going to make the Thunderbirds move back in to Key Arena, too?
As long as we lease it for free to women's roller derby then the lights will stay on. The Storm have a seriously reduced rate, fee 10-year lease on the team shop retail space, and are still losing money. The Storm passed on revenue from the upper bowl, when that opens for a Storm game it is the city deciding if they can break even on it.
They should start planning on pulling the roof off Key Arena to turn it into an outdoor amphitheater. It's done. Remarkably few people want to do business with the City of Seattle, and that should make everybody that appreciates a fine blown glass ashtray happy (thankfully they won't play sports in that building or it would have gotten shot down). You pretty much have to be a non-profit that gets non-profit rates (or be a former deputy mayor) in order to attempt to make a go of it at Seattle Center.
As long as we lease it for free to women's roller derby then the lights will stay on. The Storm have a seriously reduced rate, fee 10-year lease on the team shop retail space, and are still losing money. The Storm passed on revenue from the upper bowl, when that opens for a Storm game it is the city deciding if they can break even on it.
They should start planning on pulling the roof off Key Arena to turn it into an outdoor amphitheater. It's done. Remarkably few people want to do business with the City of Seattle, and that should make everybody that appreciates a fine blown glass ashtray happy (thankfully they won't play sports in that building or it would have gotten shot down). You pretty much have to be a non-profit that gets non-profit rates (or be a former deputy mayor) in order to attempt to make a go of it at Seattle Center.
22
There was a wonderful article in The Economist a few years back that blasted away at the alleged economic benefits of large sports stadiums that are funded by tax payers. (yes I said The Economist...that left wing rag *ahem*) The article evaluated several stadiums and came to the conclusion the added economic benefit for the communities the stadiums were in never offset the cost of the tax incentives to build the stadiums. And this was several years BEFORE the 2008 economic collapse.
24
@18 "How many concerts have been held at the new stadiums? "
Lenny Kravitz, Alice in Chains, Smashing Pumpkins, Rolling Stones, Dave Mathews Band, Slayer, plus alot of lesser known artists (head lining). U2 has played there twice.
Theres also boat shows, home shows, super cross, comic conventions, video game conventions, etc, etc. Safeco field really doest get much extra use. Its really hard to defend Safeco as the management group are indeed a bunch of douchebags.
The SODO Arena plan should mimic the Paul Allen plan and allow for both NBA/NHL and is put up to a state wide vote (Mariners was a King County vote). Even if the state pays for it, its a win/win for the city of Seattle, one that will pay for itself in 20 years. Plus you get to further expand the SODO district from its once ugly industrial zones to a more retail/restaurant atmosphere.
And its also great for commuters as theres plenty of on/off ramps that go from I-5 straight to the stadiums. Whereas the Key Arena requires you to enter a gridlock traffic area once you exit I-5. Also parking was always a pain, Bill & Melinda Gates building removed alot of prime spots, which will force alot of fans to find parking in residential neighborhoods.
With the new Arena in the SODO district, I can easily see people paying the 520 toll, then exit onto Mercer, head straight to the Viaduct Tunnel, paying another toll, just to get to the game on time (assuming its a weekday game).
Lenny Kravitz, Alice in Chains, Smashing Pumpkins, Rolling Stones, Dave Mathews Band, Slayer, plus alot of lesser known artists (head lining). U2 has played there twice.
Theres also boat shows, home shows, super cross, comic conventions, video game conventions, etc, etc. Safeco field really doest get much extra use. Its really hard to defend Safeco as the management group are indeed a bunch of douchebags.
The SODO Arena plan should mimic the Paul Allen plan and allow for both NBA/NHL and is put up to a state wide vote (Mariners was a King County vote). Even if the state pays for it, its a win/win for the city of Seattle, one that will pay for itself in 20 years. Plus you get to further expand the SODO district from its once ugly industrial zones to a more retail/restaurant atmosphere.
And its also great for commuters as theres plenty of on/off ramps that go from I-5 straight to the stadiums. Whereas the Key Arena requires you to enter a gridlock traffic area once you exit I-5. Also parking was always a pain, Bill & Melinda Gates building removed alot of prime spots, which will force alot of fans to find parking in residential neighborhoods.
With the new Arena in the SODO district, I can easily see people paying the 520 toll, then exit onto Mercer, head straight to the Viaduct Tunnel, paying another toll, just to get to the game on time (assuming its a weekday game).
26
@24: Didn't Lennie Kravitz OPEN for U2 when he played there? I don't think we get to count all the support acts as separate events, which is what I'm looking for here. Smashing Pumpkins? Alice In Chains? Really--what year was this? The Smashing Pumpkins played THE SHOWBOX last time they were here in 2010.
27
By all means. We need another fucking stadium near Pioneer Square. Forget about driving downtown... ever.
28
If the Sonics hadn't nixed the idea of making Key Arena viable for the NHL when it was being renovated, we would have had an NHL team here years ago. But they specifically renovated it in a way that excluded it from being viable for the NHL. They didn't want the competition for stadium concession stand money. Then the Sonics left anyway. Fucking assholes. If there was a way to fund a stadium for the NHL without including basketball I would jump at it. But there isn't. So build it with (mostly) private money and make the stadium workable for both sports.
29
Cleaning up the technical mess @24 (Opening acts, rescheduled shows, the individual acts of a day long show, and bands who played at the WaMu theater do not count as concerts held @ the Clink)
U2, the Stones, at least one Endfest, at least a couple of country concerts. I don't think they've had more than 2 concerts a year since that place opened. Not many acts can sell enough tickets to justify a big stadium show in Seattle.
U2, the Stones, at least one Endfest, at least a couple of country concerts. I don't think they've had more than 2 concerts a year since that place opened. Not many acts can sell enough tickets to justify a big stadium show in Seattle.
30
BTW, if private money wants to pay for an arena which can host both the NBA and NHL, go for it, otherwise they can go to hell.
32
Yes, it is strange that unheated Safeco doesn't draw awesome outdoor concerts in the winter baseball offseason.
Key Arena's claim to fame is that it is in Seattle and enclosed. That will come to an end soon.
Key Arena's claim to fame is that it is in Seattle and enclosed. That will come to an end soon.
33
I remember laughing outloud when the Qwest Field proponents said that the stadium would also be used for soccer, since clearly the were just throwing a bone to Seattle lefties. Little did I (or they) know.
Sure, the Sounders' average attendance is just a little over half of what the Hawks get, but there were 26 Sounders home games this year vs. 9 for the Seahawks. I don't think anyone would have bet that MLS would pull in 50% more fans than the NFL in a given year.
I would love to see the same thing happen for hockey/boringball.
Sure, the Sounders' average attendance is just a little over half of what the Hawks get, but there were 26 Sounders home games this year vs. 9 for the Seahawks. I don't think anyone would have bet that MLS would pull in 50% more fans than the NFL in a given year.
I would love to see the same thing happen for hockey/boringball.
34
@24 is mostly listing concerts and events at the anachronistically-named WaMu Theater & Sterile Exhibition Box. That space has never once hosted a concert or event that couldn't have been held (and wouldn't have been better) elsewhere.
Which means that Kinison has accidentally done an excellent job of demonstrating a primary flaw in the publicly-subsidized-private-megaproject shell-game logic: they don't create any new economic activity. They simply shuffle the same entertainment/discretionary dollars that would have been spent in one location to a new location. At great expense.
By now, every informed person from any point on the political spectrum gets this: http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/4116336/e…
Sadly, there are plentiful enough politicians, morons, and willfully ignorant sports fans that we're still having this discussion.
(MrBaker @14 is a moron even by the standards of morons. The ability to get around without obstruction -- as enabled by transportation investments such as those he decries -- and to therefore participate in economic activities which you would otherwise not is in fact a proven mechanism for growth.)
Which means that Kinison has accidentally done an excellent job of demonstrating a primary flaw in the publicly-subsidized-private-megaproject shell-game logic: they don't create any new economic activity. They simply shuffle the same entertainment/discretionary dollars that would have been spent in one location to a new location. At great expense.
By now, every informed person from any point on the political spectrum gets this: http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/4116336/e…
Sadly, there are plentiful enough politicians, morons, and willfully ignorant sports fans that we're still having this discussion.
(MrBaker @14 is a moron even by the standards of morons. The ability to get around without obstruction -- as enabled by transportation investments such as those he decries -- and to therefore participate in economic activities which you would otherwise not is in fact a proven mechanism for growth.)
35
Sports arena building is always corrupt and evil and Seattle probably shouldn't do it but hell I'd I'd root for a Seattle NHL team. How about the Seattle SuperDuperMeganSelings?
36
@16 Minor Correction: "Paul Allen paid 100 mill of his own money and covered cost overruns..."
The Seahawk's contribution came by way of an interest free loan from the NFL that they are still paying off. The NFL had a multi-billion stadium loan fund for exactly this purpose, and the drying up of that fund was one of the items for the recent work stoppage. (Deadspin had a nice breakdown of this during the summer.)
The only condition put on the loan was that Allen screw over the few remaining diehard fans and switch the team to the NFC West. (He was rebuiling the entire brand anyhow, so no biggie to him. Hence, the embarrassing "12th Man", blue uni's and plastic field.)
The Seahawk's contribution came by way of an interest free loan from the NFL that they are still paying off. The NFL had a multi-billion stadium loan fund for exactly this purpose, and the drying up of that fund was one of the items for the recent work stoppage. (Deadspin had a nice breakdown of this during the summer.)
The only condition put on the loan was that Allen screw over the few remaining diehard fans and switch the team to the NFC West. (He was rebuiling the entire brand anyhow, so no biggie to him. Hence, the embarrassing "12th Man", blue uni's and plastic field.)
37
@33, Sounders per game attendance is half of the Seahawks primarily because they only sell tickets to the upper sections for playoff games. A large portion of the MLS plays in stadiums with fewer seats than most football stadiums.
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