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Thursday, December 22, 2011

Oh, Politifact

Posted by on Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 2:45 PM

Just admit it: you fucked up. Don't insult the folks who are calling you on it by... lying about their media consumption habits. I watched Fox News for an hour today at the gym. (I always switch over to Fox whenever Brokaw is on MSNBC touting his newest book—so, you know, at least twice a week.) You fucked up and fucked yourself in the process, Politifact. You shat all over your credibility in a transparent effort to suck up to the folks who loathe and despise facts because, as a wise man once said, reality has a liberal bias. Stupid fuckers.

 

Comments (23) RSS

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1
It really is embarrassing, isn't it? They're twisting in the wind.
Posted by jade on December 22, 2011 at 2:59 PM
seandr 2
reality has a liberal bias

Love it.
Posted by seandr on December 22, 2011 at 3:13 PM
Vince 3
Politifucked!
Posted by Vince on December 22, 2011 at 3:16 PM
dwightmoodyforgetsthings 4
Politifact is basically saying "Listen, we're technically correct and like the Professor said, that is the best kind of correct."

Posted by dwightmoodyforgetsthings http://www.reddit.com/r/spaceclop on December 22, 2011 at 3:19 PM
kcrobinson 5
Politifact, the Washington Post Fact Checker AND FactCheck.org all claim that calling the Ryan plan "the end of Medicare" was a lie. Argue all you want if calling it the Lie of the Year showed political leaning (for me, the biggest lie is the Republican claim that millionaires are "job creators"), but three separate fact checkers (the only three I'm aware of) all agree that replacing Medicare with a different, albeit riskier, plan is not the same as ending it. At the end of the day, you have to decide who to trust, and independent fact checkers will beat politicians, news columnists, bloggers, and talking heads every time.
Posted by kcrobinson http://www.facebook.com/kcrobinson on December 22, 2011 at 3:19 PM
6
I saw this coming about a week after they went into business. They've been full of shit since forever.
Posted by Jersey on December 22, 2011 at 3:19 PM
7
Wow Danny-
it's like they've been following you around
tracking your habits.
No wonder you're so buttsore.....
Posted by nice post. now shove your head back up Maddow's Vagina on December 22, 2011 at 3:28 PM
Matt from Denver 8
@ 2, yeah. Stephen Colbert's a genius.
Posted by Matt from Denver on December 22, 2011 at 3:30 PM
rob! 9
OF COURSE it would still be Medicare, 'tards. Just like my granddad had the same ax for 45 years—replaced the handle three times and the head twice.
Posted by rob! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZBdUceCL5U on December 22, 2011 at 3:39 PM
10
but three separate fact checkers (the only three I'm aware of) all agree that replacing Medicare with a different, albeit riskier, plan is not the same as ending it.


Even if you want to believe that radically changing the fundamental structure of Medicare isn't the same as eliminating it, saying it's "the end of Medicare" isn't necessarily a lie. It's a statement of belief that's clearly open to interpretation and argument.

Calling it a lie at all is bullshit; making it the lie of the year shows that Politifact is a useless organization.
Posted by keshmeshi on December 22, 2011 at 3:54 PM
Fnarf 11
@8, Colbert was first with "reality has a liberal bias", but it was Karl Rove who got the ball rolling with "reality-based community" -- which he, incredibly, was using as a pejorative.
Posted by Fnarf http://www.facebook.com/fnarf on December 22, 2011 at 3:56 PM
e.strange 12
They even went as far as to say that a claim that Republicans want "to Eliminate Medicare As We Know It, Forcing Seniors to Pay Thousands More a Year for the Same Coverage" was a lie. How is it a lie to say that the Ryan plan would eliminate Medicare *as we know it*?!?
Posted by e.strange http://wtfontbook.blogspot.com/ on December 22, 2011 at 4:00 PM
Fnarf 13
Also, for the record, I do not watch Rachel Maddow nor read "the liberal blogs", by which I assume they mean Daily Kos (never read), Firedoglake (never read), TPM (read one article per year), Crooks and Liars (read one article per month), and so forth. If you want to count Slog, fine. That's one. And yet I am a solid and well-informed liberal.

I also don't read Polifact.
Posted by Fnarf http://www.facebook.com/fnarf on December 22, 2011 at 4:36 PM
14
@5: I'm a pretty big fan of Coastal Kitchen, but once in a while they piss me off by changing the menu. I went to complain to the manager: "you ended your awesome Moroccan menu!"

He replied, "no, we didn't end it, we just replaced it with a new Venice-inspired menu. It's completely different from ending it."

"How's that?" I said, "I can't get the tagine I want, now, because it's no longer on the menu!"

"Ha ha ha," he chortled, "but you can still order food here!"
Posted by aaronbrethorst http://www.viainstapaper.com on December 22, 2011 at 4:41 PM
pissy mcslogbot 15
when "politifact"s lie of the year, is a lie itself we really have entered Orwell Newspeak territory.
Posted by pissy mcslogbot on December 22, 2011 at 6:20 PM
16
MOTHER JONES called this a lie. MOTHERFUCKING JONES. Here's what they had to say.

"Does that mean Democrats were justified in describing the Ryan plan as “ending” Medicare? I know we all have our tribal loyalties here, but come on. There’s no question that this is intended to mislead people into thinking that medical coverage for seniors will literally go away entirely. But it wouldn’t."

You and Goldy are wrong, Dan. Wrong wrong wrong.
Posted by Reader01 on December 22, 2011 at 6:23 PM
17
Ryan's plan ends Medicare in exactly the same way the Affordable Care Act enacts death panels
Posted by Reader01 on December 22, 2011 at 6:33 PM
pissy mcslogbot 18
couponcare so fundamentally changes how medicare was envisioned and has worked, that there is no honest way that the Ryan or even the Ryan-Wyden plan could still be called Medicare, think the re-branding backlash fail of Coca-Cola trying to pass off New Coke, as the old recipie.
Posted by pissy mcslogbot on December 22, 2011 at 6:57 PM
19
Well stated, pissy mcslogbot @15. Makes me wonder how Politifact finessed the whole run-up to the Iraq War.

The funny thing is, if the Ryan plan were not about ending Medicare as we know it and privatizing a huge portion of health insurance costs, the Republican political class and its army of think tanks would not be so interested in it to begin with.

It's kinda like a horny dude expressing outrage that someone would suggest his proclivity for befriending hot chicks has anything to do with his, well, being horny.

Just come out and admit it already, GOP, and maybe we can start having a serious discussion. (Not holding my breath.)
Posted by cressona on December 22, 2011 at 6:59 PM
aardvark 20
somebody fact check this. he made it up for convenience. artificial "balance"
Posted by aardvark on December 22, 2011 at 8:17 PM
21
Oh I hate to do this, but I specifically went back and read the original politifact piece and it's spot on. They aren't going after Rachel Maddow, who described the plan quite completely when she covered it on her show. They are going after the nuanced distortions that were pushed by democratic politicians for campaign gains. In the piece they specifically highlight individuals who did describe the Medicare plan accurately and point out that even on it's accurately described merits the plan does not have a lot of support and it wouldn't have taken much message tweaking for the majority of democrats to avoid the falsehoods they were pushing.

I for one have major problems with people screaming at politifact about this lie without any major analysis of the claims in their full article on the "lie of the year". Thus far I haven't seen anyone dig into the meat of the text when accusing them of "bias" and I suspect that's because anyone who did look into their claims in any detail would realize they were being quite accurate.

Much as the Ryan plan is completely and totally terrible, and oh man it is I am totally with politifact on this one. No matter how awful it is, claiming that it's something even more awful than what was actually proposed is not only overkill, it is also still dishonesty and that's what watchdog groups like politifact are there for. So people need to simmer the fuck down.
Posted by cigan on December 23, 2011 at 8:08 AM
22
I don't get all the people saying this thing they disagree with on Politifact suddenly makes it 100% useless, or even that they fucked up at all, by just explaining what they think about an issue and why. Part of the value of stuff like this is to help you figure out what *you* think about something, and from that perspective it seems like this particular article has been extremely useful to more people than are willing to admit it. And if you can't admit that, are you admitting you look to sites like this to tell you what to think?

Oh, and before anyone slams me with protests that PF's use of "True" and "False" implies some kind of empirical standard of objectivity, please read this first: http://tinyurl.com/3jd4jho.

Thanks for reminding me of Politifact, though. I tend not to agree with them on this one either - I'm more in the "Medicare as we know it" camp, but at least it's written well enough for me to see their logic, which is more than you usually get from some website that's free and pretty good, and has very few ads on it. Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater, geez.
Posted by houseoftrash on December 23, 2011 at 12:22 PM
John Horstman 23
@4: Actually, that was Bureaucrat Number 1.0. :-)

The problem with their claim to technical correctness is the same problem with their entire organization and approach: they think they can present objective truth. They can't. Everything they do inherits a framing bias by virtue of the fact that it's the result of human labor, and not acknowledging that bias makes it IMPOSSIBLE to account for it in the analysis and presentation of the empirical data. Politifact's original sin is that it believes in objective truth, that human ideas can exist in a culture-free, context-free vacuum, which leaves it no room to account for the context of production of those ideas or the implications of their discursive functioning or the impacts of specific policy initiatives (e.g. privatizing Medicare, a public health insurance system, intrinsically makes it no longer a public health insurance system, which makes it no longer the thing we currently call Medicare, even if you slap the same label on the new thing).

Politifact's claim is analogous to saying that if a revolutionary force manages to topple the US government, enacts a new constitution, and completely changes the way the law operates (for example, establishing a totalitarian monarchy), they haven't gotten rid of the USA if they call their new state the USA nor democracy if they call their system democracy; it's a sort of linguistic non-essentialism that completely negates any utility to language at all.

This isn't a new problem that has recently made them irrelevant (as Krugman suggests), either: it's ALWAYS been an issue. Fact-checking is absolutely important, but those facts NEED to be contextualized, both in terms of context of production and context of transmission/effect.

@21: I went back and read it, too. See above. Also, for a detailed analysis of the bias:

"Republicans muscled a budget through the House of Representatives in April that they said would take an important step toward reducing the federal deficit." In the very first sentence, we have a framing bias for the issue at hand: Politifact is asserting that reducing the Federal deficit is important (or at least that a step toward reducing the deficit is intrinsically important), and by stating it as an uncontextualized universal, the only context we have is at the time the words are being published, meaning that they're asserting that reducing the federal deficit at this point in time is important, an assertion with dubious empirical backing, and a failure to say for whom it is important (I'll go ahead and tell you: reducing the deficit primarily does two things - preserves the USA lines of credit internationally and to the Fed and slows currency devaluation, both of which are important primarily to the super-rich with large investments that exist in the form of US dollars; in fact, both of these are actually objectively bad for people who carry large amounts of debt and benefit creditors, as they maintain the relative value of the debt vs. average earnings).

"Introduced by U.S. Rep. Paul Ryan of Wisconsin, the plan kept Medicare intact for people 55 or older, but dramatically changed the program for everyone else by privatizing it and providing government subsidies." In the second sentence we get to the crux of the issue: Politifact considers changing a publicly-funded, publicly-run, universally-freely-available (after a certain age) program to a program wherein public funds are used to purchase private insurance plans for not-full-coverage-for-everyone to not be eliminating the original program as long as one calls it the same name. However, everything that makes Medicare what it is (universal no-cost access, public insurance fund) is eliminated. The Ryan plan DOESN'T "change" Medicare, it completely eliminates it in a phased fashion, replacing it with an entirely new system also called "Medicare".

Further down: "After two years of being pounded by Republicans with often false charges about the 2010 health care law, the Democrats were turning the tables."

And again: "It’s the third year in a row that a health care claim has won the dubious honor." This is actually a larger framing problem the Politifact is reinforcing instead of challenging/debunking as it should: "health care" is being equated to "health insurance", but they are very much not the same thing. I can, for example, have health insurance without receiving any health care (and actually do, as I have not been to see a doctor since starting my current plan, and only go for the mandatory yearly physicals required to keep my plan at all); alternately, I can go to an ER and be treated for life-threatening injuries without any health insurance. This conflation of two distinct concepts contributed to a whole hell of a lot of the disingenuous claims around the 'Obamacare' health insurance reform bill (and then law). Politifact completely dropped the ball with that one because it does not (usually) account for context or framing; unfortunately, this disregard for context in favor of a view that treats "facts" as decontextualized claims with stable truth values does (and always has) rendered their final verdicts useless (to their credit, the actual data-mining operations in which they engage are extremely valuable, they're just really bad at the analysis part).

Another false care/insurance conflation: "A complicated and wonky subject with life-or-death consequences, health care is fertile ground for falsehoods."

"The Democratic attack about 'ending Medicare' was a pervasive line in 2011 that preyed on seniors' worries about whether they could afford health care." This one actually avoids the previous pitfalls, but consists entirely of projection, as it provides no evidence for how the line played with seniors (it might be accurate projection, but for an organization claiming to base analysis of truth on empirical data, asserting e.g. the discursive functioning of a claim without e.g. linking polling data that support that claim is seriously questionable).

Fuck, I'm already sick of this. The rest is more of the same.

Ironically, they actually quote one blogger who points out what's wrong with Politifact's analysis, going on to point out that other people say the same thing they do, without responding to the criticism of the analysis, as though "but he did it too!" somehow makes a behavior okay (I'm sure there's a technical name for that sort of logical fallacy, "appeal ad populum" or somesuch): "'According to (PolitiFact's) logic, if the FBI were replaced with a voucher program wherein citizens would receive subsidies for hiring private investigators to look into criminal activity, but the agency running the voucher program were still called the FBI, it would be unfair to say that the FBI had been ended,' wrote Jed Lewison for Daily Kos. 'I guess it's their right to make that argument, but it's transparently absurd.'"

There's a perfectly accurate analysis of what the Ryan plan actually proposes, presented with similarly problematic framing. Finishing that section, there's this: "'Ryan basically proposed the Affordable Care Act for future seniors,' said Jonathan Gruber, an economist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, who advised both President Obama and Republican Mitt Romney on health care. 'I don't understand how you can like it for future seniors but not like it for today's needy uninsured. That doesn't make any sense.'" I very much dislike the Affordable Care Act for the exact same reason I dislike ending Medicare (by which I mean the public insurance program the we currently have called "Medicare"); however, there is one difference in that there isn't currently a single-payer insurance system for people under 65. It's not entirely inconsistent to say that a voucher system for private insurance is better than nothing and also say that a voucher system is worse than single-payer, allowing one to support a shift from nothing to a voucher system and also oppose a shift from a single-payer system (Medicare) to a voucher system. Alternately, it's not inconsistent to oppose ANY public insurance system and there fore oppose the ACA and also support shifting from a single payer system called Medicare to a voucher system also called Medicare. Again, Politifact fails to account for the nuance, instead framing the statement as equating the change presented by the ACA and the Ryan plan, when in fact they move in the opposite directions.

The segment ends with a bunch of assertions about the discursive functions of the different claims without any evidence whatsoever; there are appeals to authority that masquerade as evidence, but as we (hopefully) all learned in high school, appeals to authority are not the same thing as legitimate arguments for a point.

So, yeah, this is pretty much always the case with Politifact unless they're analyzing something with a stable truth value across frames and contexts (e.g. "Using the definitions of 'water,' 'hydrogen,' and 'oxygen' that have achieved consensus in the human scientific community and the definitions of the rest of these words that have achieved consensus in Standard Received English, water is composed of two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen by molar count"). Their finding of quotes and compiling of data is very useful, while their analysis is awful and has a considerable Conservative bias (Conservatives overwhelmingly support essentialist, Modernist framings established in a culture of White, male, heterosexual, able-bodied, propertied, etc. privilege that discount the importance of context in the operations of policies and even 'facts' across disparate and especially marginalized populations).
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Posted by John Horstman on December 27, 2011 at 11:37 AM

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