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News & ArtsThursday, December 15, 2011
City / Life / Tech / Games The Greatest Argument about Xbox Ever Had on Seattle Public Transit
Posted by David Schmader on Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 11:56 AM
Sent last night to I, Anonymous:
For better or worse, I own an XBox 360. The new dashboard came out last week, and I sure am sorry I was proclaiming my dislike of it loudly on the bus, and while I don't begrudge you speaking up and asking me my opinion before letting me know you worked for Microsoft and helped design that new dashboard, I do begrudge you getting defensive about it when I told you you were wrong.
Sure, I don't work for Microsoft. I don't consume the Kool-Aid every day, being told what to do by my higher-ups, knowing that telling them "no" could inhibit my career, my salary, or my employment. But adding advertising is never an improvement. Adding the Bing toolbar, which your employer continues to force down everyone's throats, is not an improvement. Making the features I already enjoy harder to find, buried under multiple drop down menus? Not an improvement. Services I don't want and can't remove? Also, not an improvement. Ah, but wait... the new layout matches Windows Media Center and Phone Operating System? Super. I don't own that shit and there's a reason I don't.
I'm sorry you're so goddamn sensitive about having worked for who knows how many months for a much busier dashboard that benefits no one but your bosses' bottom line. I'm sure the paycheck cleared, so what do you have to be unhappy about? My friends in the gaming industry work on shitty games every month, because that's what their ignorant bosses ask for. That is the state of the industry. If you don't like your job, quit. But clearly you do like your job, or you wouldn't have jumped to its defense. I was happy to discuss it, but you can't be so ignorant as to think this project you just finished was going to make 100% of the population happy. You pointed out that it might need time to sink in, and I was ready to agree with you, save for the Netflix update, which redefines Horror, Dysfunctionality, and Ugliness all at once. And that only pissed you off.
You live in the city, man. Quit being so sensitive. Your bosses will just order you to fuck up something else next month. That check will clear, too.
2
you'd think the press would be able to print "Xbox" correctly after eleven years
"X-Box" "XBox" "X-box" "X-bocks" are all incorrect sorry
"X-Box" "XBox" "X-box" "X-bocks" are all incorrect sorry
3
Yeah, still kind of a toss-up for me, too. They substantially improved Kinect voice shit, so it's way easier to watch stuff on my TV by yelling at it, but a lot of other stuff got worse. Maybe I don't want to watch whatever episode you decide is next, episode, Netflix. Maybe I want you to let me decide, before you dive right in to whichever one you think is best for me. I basically use my Xbox for Netflix and playing games, though, so I'll freely admit there could easily be a whole host of problems I haven't encountered.
I don't know what the problem with the Bing integration is; it's nice to be able to search for stuff, and it's not like Google integration was ever going to happen.
(FULL DISCLOSURE: I work for Microsoft, on something you probably don't use. I only bought a Zune because I think clickwheels and touchscreens are miserable input mechanisms, and I prefer Opera over IE.)
I don't know what the problem with the Bing integration is; it's nice to be able to search for stuff, and it's not like Google integration was ever going to happen.
(FULL DISCLOSURE: I work for Microsoft, on something you probably don't use. I only bought a Zune because I think clickwheels and touchscreens are miserable input mechanisms, and I prefer Opera over IE.)
5
If Microsoft were an auto maker, they would change their cars from left-hand drive to right-hand every few years.
6
"I do begrudge you getting defensive about it when I told you you were wrong." Obviously he should have passively taken your shit about something he cares about.
7
This is like a Usenet flame war in real life.
Of course since I was in about 2 million threads like that on comp.os.linux.advocacy ... no big.
Of course since I was in about 2 million threads like that on comp.os.linux.advocacy ... no big.
8
@6 He should be grateful for the feedback. Telling users that their opinions about his user interface are wrong is the worst thing he can do.
10
@3 Re: Kinect voice commands– It's not that great though. You can't say "Xbox launch netflix" from the Home pane!
You have to say "Xbox video", then "Xbox video apps" THEN "Xbox Netflix"!
What is the point of voice commands if you STILL have to drill down through multiple menus?
You have to say "Xbox video", then "Xbox video apps" THEN "Xbox Netflix"!
What is the point of voice commands if you STILL have to drill down through multiple menus?
11
The dashboard is the thing I have never liked about the Xbox. Maybe they would sell more if they didn't have a bunch of dudes who buy their clothes at Costco designing the interface.
13
Probably the best thing about the Xbox is that it didn't function like a Microsoft product. Oh well. At least I don't use mine for anything other than games.
14
Dude who takes his MS-mandated work way too personally vs. dude who is shit at delivering objective, cosntructive criticism! ROUND ONE, FIGHT
15
I hated the guy after he said he was loudly proclaiming his dislike on the bus. No one should be loud on the bus.
18
The "improvements" to the Xbox dashboard are just a symptom of the larger problem you have when your CEO is more of a glorified accountant than a leader with a vision and a strategy.
19
Man, that is a steaming pile of Why Wasn't I Consulted. I hope I never see the internet spill out into real life like that in person.
20
Microsoft is shit at design because they arrogantly assume they know more than their users. It doesn't matter if the feedback is "obnoxious"- if you can't hear and learn from it, you'll just continue to build things people don't like.
21
Ha! As a former member of the borg, I cringe at some of the design decisions I pooped out not because they benefited any customers but because they satisfied the myriad internal political constraints I was facing.
I've also been in the position of overhearing customers dis my stuff, but there was no fucking way I'd let them know I was involved, let alone argue with them.
I've also been in the position of overhearing customers dis my stuff, but there was no fucking way I'd let them know I was involved, let alone argue with them.
23
@22 Does they intuitively interface with my mouth? Can they wirelessly synch with my floss? Is it compatible with my mouthwash? Can I buy toothpaste with it or do I have to hook it up over a wired connection to my medicine cabinet first and buy my toothpaste that way?
24
You guys realize you can now run Unreal Tournament 3 as a Flash plugin.
Cloud gaming is here. Consoles are dead.
25
@10: If memory serves, there's a "Quick something" on the initial pane that seems to always have Netflix on it. So that makes it more along the lines of "Xbox: Quick Launch (or whatever it's called) ... Netflix" and then you're in. Still maybe not ideal, but it's not too bad.
No, I'm more happy that I'm not stuck giving up and using my controller if what I want to watch isn't one of the first eleven things Netflix thinks I might be interested in. I guess the Kinect functionality always seemed like a ghetto in the old UI, whereas now it's on the same level as the normal interface. Of course, that just raises the question of whether that was done by bringing the rest of the interface down to the same level...
@17: I'm intending here to speak more as just a person that owns an Xbox and uses it for stuff. I don't work anywhere near (organizationally speaking) xbox, so that's really the only perspective I have on it. The Full Disclosure stuff we (i.e., MS employees) basically have to say to stay out of trouble with Legal.
I like to think I don't drink much of the Kool-Aid here. I do think we tend to get a lot of undeserved grief, but by no means do I pretend we never screw things up; it's a big company in a fast-paced industry. In this specific instance, I don't have a lot of bad things to say mainly because I haven't used the new interface all that much yet.
No, I'm more happy that I'm not stuck giving up and using my controller if what I want to watch isn't one of the first eleven things Netflix thinks I might be interested in. I guess the Kinect functionality always seemed like a ghetto in the old UI, whereas now it's on the same level as the normal interface. Of course, that just raises the question of whether that was done by bringing the rest of the interface down to the same level...
@17: I'm intending here to speak more as just a person that owns an Xbox and uses it for stuff. I don't work anywhere near (organizationally speaking) xbox, so that's really the only perspective I have on it. The Full Disclosure stuff we (i.e., MS employees) basically have to say to stay out of trouble with Legal.
I like to think I don't drink much of the Kool-Aid here. I do think we tend to get a lot of undeserved grief, but by no means do I pretend we never screw things up; it's a big company in a fast-paced industry. In this specific instance, I don't have a lot of bad things to say mainly because I haven't used the new interface all that much yet.
27
Ha! My friend's girlfriend works on the IE team at Microsoft and it's hilarious to listen to her similar insistance that "It's really good! You just have to get used to it!"
30
This resentment speaks volumes about those of us including myself, who are either too savvy or snobby when it comes to our interface preferences. Let's take it as a compliment shall we?
I work at MS IEB and although I'm not thrilled with the new dash and the stupid ads, I can confirm that the majority of users that were tested (Several thousand from the key demographic- you figure that one out) "loved it".
I can honestly say that those in charge here concluded it was the best design based on the results they received or they would not have rolled it out. Anyhoo, remember the first Xbox dash? Things always improve, it just takes us a while.
I work at MS IEB and although I'm not thrilled with the new dash and the stupid ads, I can confirm that the majority of users that were tested (Several thousand from the key demographic- you figure that one out) "loved it".
I can honestly say that those in charge here concluded it was the best design based on the results they received or they would not have rolled it out. Anyhoo, remember the first Xbox dash? Things always improve, it just takes us a while.
31
Well we're actually required to disclose we work for Microsoft whenever we comment on a public blog and also state that there are our opinions and not those of Microsoft. We go through mandatory training on this EVERY YEAR and it's a big deal if you don't complete it.
I've spoken up in defense of our products and have given out the free help cards we get every year as well. (Every FTE gets two cards to hand out that'll get you whatever support you need for a consumer product. Great for grandma!)
Yes I work here (on Azure) and love it. I take pride in what I do and the company as well. If you're happy with where you work you stick up for it. The looks I've gotten from my Starbucks friends for even suggesting to go to Tully's is bad near homicidal.
I've spoken up in defense of our products and have given out the free help cards we get every year as well. (Every FTE gets two cards to hand out that'll get you whatever support you need for a consumer product. Great for grandma!)
Yes I work here (on Azure) and love it. I take pride in what I do and the company as well. If you're happy with where you work you stick up for it. The looks I've gotten from my Starbucks friends for even suggesting to go to Tully's is bad near homicidal.
32
I agree with everything Schmader says about the new UI. I absolutely loathe it, especially the changes to Netflix. And who the hell was clamoring for the Good Morning America section (or whatever that drivel is)?
33
(I work for MS) First of all, don't ignore the changes on the back end of the Xbox LIVE network, this is where Microsoft is killing Sony and Nintendo - Microsoft knows software better, games are a software market. As for the UI this design is called "metro" and it it supposed to appeal to more customers (not just hardcore gamers). Microsoft is pushing for more family friendly games as well as extending Xbox to be more of a general entertainment device for watching WMC Live TV / Netflix. Microsoft needs to evolve the market to stay ahead.
34
There are still plenty of people around (like everyone on The Stranger staff, for starters) who are completely ignorant of this ethical factoid, so it bears repeating about Microsoft and 9/11/01:
On 9/12/01, taking advantage of all the horrible publicity about horrendous American (and foreign) death, Microsoft decided to very quietly and quickly lay about 1,000 employees and contractors off on this day, and offshore those jobs to India and China.
Now, many of the infantile types might say, "Big dea!" (especially that Mugabe-Mudede fellow, as he appears obsessed with bigness), but the fact of the matter is this was eggregiously amoral, unethical and typical of Gates and Ballmer --- super pricks and dicks.
I first became aware of this about a year and half after the fact from an article which happened to mention this item in the Puget Sound Business Journal.
On 9/12/01, taking advantage of all the horrible publicity about horrendous American (and foreign) death, Microsoft decided to very quietly and quickly lay about 1,000 employees and contractors off on this day, and offshore those jobs to India and China.
Now, many of the infantile types might say, "Big dea!" (especially that Mugabe-Mudede fellow, as he appears obsessed with bigness), but the fact of the matter is this was eggregiously amoral, unethical and typical of Gates and Ballmer --- super pricks and dicks.
I first became aware of this about a year and half after the fact from an article which happened to mention this item in the Puget Sound Business Journal.
36
@35, you're obviously a super-brain, so assuming the worst I will attempt to spell it out one final time, although I realize you're really a time-consuming troll:
You look at the archives of the Puget Sound Business Journal, given the timeframe I previously pointed out, say about one and a half years after 9/12/01.
Now, I realize I just conveyed some truly awesome, complex, incredibly circuitous stuff to your pesky, super-brain (just joshing, you're obviously a rodent creature from off-planet, huh?), but if you really, really buckle down, and re-read this comment several dozen times, then do some crystal meth and re-read it again, perhaps......just perhaps....you may one day comprehend it by the time you get your head out of your vagina and begin to think for yourself --- but that will probably never occur.
You look at the archives of the Puget Sound Business Journal, given the timeframe I previously pointed out, say about one and a half years after 9/12/01.
Now, I realize I just conveyed some truly awesome, complex, incredibly circuitous stuff to your pesky, super-brain (just joshing, you're obviously a rodent creature from off-planet, huh?), but if you really, really buckle down, and re-read this comment several dozen times, then do some crystal meth and re-read it again, perhaps......just perhaps....you may one day comprehend it by the time you get your head out of your vagina and begin to think for yourself --- but that will probably never occur.
37
Oh, I hadn't yet read your previous drivel that you're one of those brainless McSoftware twits....that explains everything.
Last time I was working in Redmond, some McSoftware moron set their coffee down on the floor of the Sound Transit bus heading to Seattle --- and amazingly, his coffee actually spilled over (funny physics, that!!!!) and spread onto various people's backpacks and shoes, etc.
Those pesky and moronic McSofties......
Last time I was working in Redmond, some McSoftware moron set their coffee down on the floor of the Sound Transit bus heading to Seattle --- and amazingly, his coffee actually spilled over (funny physics, that!!!!) and spread onto various people's backpacks and shoes, etc.
Those pesky and moronic McSofties......
38
@Ben: Don't bother, Sgt_Doom is... well, just don't bother.
@32: I guess I meant "Today," not "Good Morning America."
Could any of the MS employees here please explain why Netflix inexplicably kicks people off Xbox Live mid-episode (or mid-movie)? It's been happening since at least the release of the UI before last, and I always hope it will be fixed on the next release, only to be disappointed. I would assume it's a wireless connection issue, but it never happens unless I'm using Netflix.
@32: I guess I meant "Today," not "Good Morning America."
Could any of the MS employees here please explain why Netflix inexplicably kicks people off Xbox Live mid-episode (or mid-movie)? It's been happening since at least the release of the UI before last, and I always hope it will be fixed on the next release, only to be disappointed. I would assume it's a wireless connection issue, but it never happens unless I'm using Netflix.
39
BTW - this "metro" design, for better or for worse, is what you can expect to see with Windows 8.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en…
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en…
41
@33: exactly what has been pissing me off about MS products in general since Office 2007 - in an attempt to appeal to "more customers", they've made products harder to use for established, skilled users. Chased me right off.
42
Yeah, that didn't work. It doesn't open Netflix, it opens the quicklaunch menu. I restate: WHAT THE FUCK IS THE POINT OF VOICE COMMANDS IF YOU STILL HAVE TO DRILL DOWN MULTIPLE MENUS? The reason we have menus at all in any AI is because computers don't understand normal speech. Jesus if Adobe wanted to make a voice-activated version of Photoshop, they wouldn't make you say "Photoshop, open 'select' menu" then say "Photoshop, select all"
Guess what, if I still gotta access menus, it's easier to press a button.
MS completely whiffed it on this one.
Guess what, if I still gotta access menus, it's easier to press a button.
MS completely whiffed it on this one.
43
Reminds me of every time that they change Microsoft World. Oh look at all those features. How do I shut them off? Why did you change the text-based dropdown menus, in which I know where everything is, to stupid little incomprehensible pictures? I'm using Microsoft Word; THAT INDICATES THAT I CAN READ.
44
The problem is that Microsoft takes too much feedback from current users, not too much. We'd still have DOS and command lines if they only stuck with current user preferences. Apple has completely cuts ties with previous versions several times over the years (X OS, Intel, etc.). Their loyal users lost every bit of investment and Apple didn't ask permission. The result is the biggest, most valuable and most admired IT company in the world.
The dedicated, game only, console is going the way of the land phone... bye bye. Avoid the urge to become the stuffy old, closed minded nerd.
The dedicated, game only, console is going the way of the land phone... bye bye. Avoid the urge to become the stuffy old, closed minded nerd.
45
I love it how every thread about Microsoft on this part of the internet goes from discussion of points made in the article -> microsoft bashing based on no-documentation "evidence" -> product support -> anti-microsoft ranting completely unrelated to the article. It's still entertaining.
Disclaimer: I don't work for microsoft.
Disclaimer: I don't work for microsoft.
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