Slog
News & ArtsThursday, December 15, 2011
2012 Higher Education is a Liberal Conspiracy, Everyone Should Carry Uzis, and Barney Frank's New Job: What I Learned at that Rick Santorum House Party in Iowa Where That Picture Was Taken
Posted by Dan Savage on Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 11:01 AM
The person who took the above picture—which made its first Interwebs appearance here on Slog—emailed me this morning to explain how it came to exist.
I thought you might enjoy some background on the Santorum picture.
It was taken at a Santorum campaign house party just north of Cedar Rapids. Two brothers from Pennsylvania brought the sign to the party. Somehow they got tickets to the 12/10 debate in Iowa and decided to stick around and attend some campaign events. They told the party's hosts that their whole family had been following the campaign and that they were proud that Rick Santorum was from Pennsylvania. They told Sen. Santorum the sign had been made by their eight-year-old nephew. I don't know if any of this is true. What I can confirm that the sign was done in fingerpaint with little bits of clip art glued on. Sen. Santorum definitely was not "in on the joke."
That said, I think it's worth telling you about the rest of my experience that night, as your readers might like to know what it's like to attend a Rick Santorum campaign house party.
The house was in this wealthy community that looked like something from a Tim Burton movie. The walkway up to the front door had candles and little American flags. The house was really, really lovely. When my wife and I walked in, we were greeted warmly by the owner of the house who took our coats. The refreshments table had little bottles of water, snacks and punch. Most people seemed to know each other. Everyone was well-dressed. The whole atmosphere was very friendly and pleasant—I almost forgot where we were until I listened as Iowa State Senator Tim Kapucian chatted up the two guys from Pennsylvania who brought the sign. He told them the following joke: "Why did Barney Frank decide to leave congress? Because he got offered the head coaching job at Penn State!"
Awkward.
Rick Santorum was working the crowd. To be fair the following needs to be stressed: he is really quite warm and friendly in person. In Iowa we get to see so many of these stuffed shirts who think they can be leader of the free world but don't actually interact with people like fellow human beings. But Rick Santorum is a warm and friendly guy—who also happens to hold wildly offensive political beliefs. But it's worth noting his friendliness, because he should get some credit for that. After talking with him I found myself reevaluate how I feel about him.
Then he gave his stump speech.
There was nothing explicitly homophobic in his remarks, as some might expect. His points were more generally about values and America. But contained therein was some pretty oddball conspiracy theories. To summarize, Barack Obama is purposefully pushing for college to be more affordable because he wants our children to be indoctrinated with liberal thinking. He called out the University of Iowa and Cal Berkley in particular. Apparently 62% of people of faith who go off to college become less religious as a result. Also, Obama's emphasis on an information-economy rather than an old-style manufacturing-based economy is a plot to drain people out of the heartland into the big cities, where they become liberal. "Look at the map" he asked "where are the biggest pockets of blue? In the cities." And all this is eroding America's heritage and values, etc. As someone who was born and raised in a big city and continues to live there, and also went to college, I felt as though I and my friends and family were being made out to be the enemy, and somehow less-American that people who live in rural areas. So, that offended me.
Another thread was a Romney-esque critique that Obama doesn't think this country is great. Or rather, seizing on a comment (real or not) that America only really became truly great with the advent of programs like Social Security. Santorum's point was that America has always been 100% incredibly great and anyone who says otherwise is out of step with American values. A lot of head-nodding in the room for that one. I'm not saying that America wasn't pretty good in say 1850, but it's a lot better now. Also the Senator gave the US credit for the industrial revolution. For almost 2000 years, he pointed out, life expectancy was more or less steady. Then America comes along and life expectancy doubles over a century. While tempted to point out the difference between correlation and causation, I ate some chips instead.
Also, during the Q&A period, a little girl asked a question about gun rights. Sen. Santorum pointed out that in Israel, everyone walks around with guns, that businessmen have Uzi's on their shoulders, and street crime is virtually non-existent. So if everyone in America had a gun, we would all be a lot safer. I doubt Israel has zero street crime. But even if it does have low street crime, how would he explain the dozens of countries in Europe that have strict gun laws and low gun ownership but also have very low rates of street crime?
What made the whole scene so weird was that everyone was so nice and pleasant, while simultaneously united in their desire to return America to a perceived perfection and purity that they seem to feel existed at one point but is now under attack by higher education and tolerance.
I mean really, college is the enemy?
3
Astoundingly delusional. Galileo still wouldn't have a chance with this crowd. But at least they are not ashamed of their stupidity, they brag about it and think we should all join them in their little teeny tiny world.
4
I think it would be awesome if A) this become the default image on Slog of Santorum, like that sneering Glenn Beck pic was used for a long time; and B) you guys should get an HD copy of this, print it, and frame it as a trophy in the lobby.
5
I'm always fascinated by accounts of what Republicans talk about when they think they're among friends. Sometimes I've been tempted to infiltrate right-wing events just for shits and giggles, but I know that I'd never be able to pass as one of them, I'd be outed and it would end badly.
6
And to think this is what the political Right wing in America views as a Candidate for President. Where did America go wrong?
7
Thanks for the long account.
I know that as a person who was raised in polite Republican circles, this mirrors my experience. Upper class Republicans are usually quite friendly and nice. Down here in Texas we sometimes get the Boss Hog types, but that seems to an exception.
It can be a little baffling to see such nice people hold such mean views. It seems consistent to me with how adamantly they oppose being exposed to any of the disasterous effects of their policies. Santorum himself recently absolutely dismissed the idea that lots of deaths result from inability of people to get health insurance in the pre-Obamacare market. Similarly, they never want to hear about the huge death toll as a result of gun accidents or want to know anything about the effects of pollution or segregation.
I know that as a person who was raised in polite Republican circles, this mirrors my experience. Upper class Republicans are usually quite friendly and nice. Down here in Texas we sometimes get the Boss Hog types, but that seems to an exception.
It can be a little baffling to see such nice people hold such mean views. It seems consistent to me with how adamantly they oppose being exposed to any of the disasterous effects of their policies. Santorum himself recently absolutely dismissed the idea that lots of deaths result from inability of people to get health insurance in the pre-Obamacare market. Similarly, they never want to hear about the huge death toll as a result of gun accidents or want to know anything about the effects of pollution or segregation.
9
He's doing it again, Danny.
Rick is Fucking with you.
He's giving you his best 'Cum Hither' look....
see the 'Fuck Me' look in his eyes?
he dug his turtle neck out of the closet just to drive you crazy.
Rick knows you want to whip up some santorum IN Santorum.
He's all good with it.
He wants you Danny.
Just you.......
Rick is Fucking with you.
He's giving you his best 'Cum Hither' look....
see the 'Fuck Me' look in his eyes?
he dug his turtle neck out of the closet just to drive you crazy.
Rick knows you want to whip up some santorum IN Santorum.
He's all good with it.
He wants you Danny.
Just you.......
10
This was a great post - thanks to the author!
Shortly after Rick Perry got into the race, I had a work event in Texas that involved a cocktail hour with a group of about a dozen Republicans who wanted to talk politics. It was totally fascinating to me to get their take on the Presidential race. The thing that was most interesting was that they hated Rick Perry. And they were all Texans. My impression was that it was because he used to be a Democrat - they view him as willing to change his stripes based on whatever will get him ahead.
Shortly after Rick Perry got into the race, I had a work event in Texas that involved a cocktail hour with a group of about a dozen Republicans who wanted to talk politics. It was totally fascinating to me to get their take on the Presidential race. The thing that was most interesting was that they hated Rick Perry. And they were all Texans. My impression was that it was because he used to be a Democrat - they view him as willing to change his stripes based on whatever will get him ahead.
11
His comments about Israel are just not true. I mean they are absolutely glorified and not true at all. I've been there, I've walked the streets of Tel-Aviv and Jerusalem and I will say that I never saw anyone with a gun...especially Businessmen. And Jerusalem definitely did not feel safe at night and how could one say that there is virtually no crime in the epicenter of bloody religious clash? I feel bad for the people that hear this irrational, glorified, lies and don't know any better. It doesn't seem fair.
12
"To be fair the following needs to be stressed: he is really quite warm and friendly in person."
No shit, sherlock - politicians are ALL like this. You don't win elections by being aloof. It's the reason why he posed for that picture, too - you can't risk alienating a SINGLE potential voter.
No shit, sherlock - politicians are ALL like this. You don't win elections by being aloof. It's the reason why he posed for that picture, too - you can't risk alienating a SINGLE potential voter.
13
7
Liberals,
on the other hand,
Love to hear and talk about the tens of thousands of homosexuals who kill each other with AIDS each year.
And the million innocent babies slaughtered each year just in this country.
And the thousands of children killed by neglect and abuse because their families were ripped apart by extramarital sex.
Liberals,
on the other hand,
Love to hear and talk about the tens of thousands of homosexuals who kill each other with AIDS each year.
And the million innocent babies slaughtered each year just in this country.
And the thousands of children killed by neglect and abuse because their families were ripped apart by extramarital sex.
14
The Industrial Revolution mostly started in Great Britain, not the United States; the United States barely existed yet. His information about standards of living over the last 2000 years has a grain of truth in it, but only a grain; he's got the place, the time and the reasons all wrong. One thing he probably doesn't want to talk about is that the real boom in living standards came with progressive governmental change, like the income tax, social security, and the Great Society; since then, in the current "big government socialist era" the GDP has skyrocketed, even if the people at the bottom of the pyramid have stagnated.
This is a message of fear delivered to people who have lost everything. There is nothing traditional or sustainable about the Iowan way of life. Maybe fifty years ago; but now the entire state is a welfare program for farmers growing corn for subsidized ethanol or subsidized animal feed.
This is a message of fear delivered to people who have lost everything. There is nothing traditional or sustainable about the Iowan way of life. Maybe fifty years ago; but now the entire state is a welfare program for farmers growing corn for subsidized ethanol or subsidized animal feed.
15
"I'm not saying that America wasn't pretty good in say 1850..."
Why aren't you saying that? The whole problem with the "things were just fine until you liberals ruined everything" line is that it completely whitewashes slavery/Jim Crow, the oppression of women and the genocide of Native Americans out of American history, instead painting a picture of a tranquil libertarian utopia of tri-corner hats and the gold standard. This rewriting of history must be resisted at every opportunity.
Why aren't you saying that? The whole problem with the "things were just fine until you liberals ruined everything" line is that it completely whitewashes slavery/Jim Crow, the oppression of women and the genocide of Native Americans out of American history, instead painting a picture of a tranquil libertarian utopia of tri-corner hats and the gold standard. This rewriting of history must be resisted at every opportunity.
16
Oh,
and Danny,
Rick is happy to hear that you are versatile.
He'd like to do a little whipping up of his own,
if you catch his drift.....
and Danny,
Rick is happy to hear that you are versatile.
He'd like to do a little whipping up of his own,
if you catch his drift.....
18
Why do you think 1850 would have been "pretty good"? As a woman I would have been little better than a slave, my entire fortunes bound up with the sort of man I might have married; as a deaf person I most certainly would not have had that chance at all and unless I had somehow wound up at one of the few Deaf schools of the time, would have been completely illiterate if I had even survived to adulthood. So, no.
19
Regarding Israel and street crime, I have a flat rate rental car insurance policy that is good in most countries troughout the world except a short list of less than 10. Israel is on the list along with places like Somalia.
20
Actually Somalia is not on the list. The excluded countries are:Australia, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Jamaica, and New Zealand
21
@14 Your points are accurate, but the poster says that Ricky was talking about life expectancy, not standard of living. Yes, the two are definitely related.
Life expectancy has increased because of immunizations, often delivered by progressive governments, and developed by smart people who went to college.
Life expectancy has increased because of immunizations, often delivered by progressive governments, and developed by smart people who went to college.
22
@10, I don't think it's because Perry used to be a Democrat....everybody in the South used to be a Democrat. Perry did OK as governor at first because with record oil revenue he as able to slash taxes and not cut spending. Then the recession came, oil prices fell and Perry gutted spending without regard for consequences.
Even Republicans know that 50 kids to a classroom is a bad idea.
Even Republicans know that 50 kids to a classroom is a bad idea.
23
18 & 15. Have to agree, even left handed people were the devil back then. Much prefer 2011 though we still have a few 1850 types around if you catch my drift......
25
@2 no, not Disney.
Disney is the right hand of Satan. The best and only movies you can let your children watch are made by Focus on the Family.
Disney is the right hand of Satan. The best and only movies you can let your children watch are made by Focus on the Family.
26
@15
Also, America had just gotten through killing some Mexicans so we could "buy" a bunch of their land. This was justified because God wanted us to have that land. Oh, and a few years later when we realized we didn't, uh, politely request the portion of land best suited to building a trans-continental railroad, we went back and got some more against the wishes of the Mexican people.
By the way, the troll who keeps harping on Jim Crow and slavery as being Democratic institutions displays a severe lack of critical thinking. To get a more relevant idea of the current Democratic and Republican attitudes towards these issues, look to the 1960s, not the 1860s. Most people worth talking to understand this without having it explained to them.
Hey, wait, I'm starting to realize Santorum's point re: college. I learned all these things in college! And because of that I will never support a dipshit like Santorum.
Also, America had just gotten through killing some Mexicans so we could "buy" a bunch of their land. This was justified because God wanted us to have that land. Oh, and a few years later when we realized we didn't, uh, politely request the portion of land best suited to building a trans-continental railroad, we went back and got some more against the wishes of the Mexican people.
By the way, the troll who keeps harping on Jim Crow and slavery as being Democratic institutions displays a severe lack of critical thinking. To get a more relevant idea of the current Democratic and Republican attitudes towards these issues, look to the 1960s, not the 1860s. Most people worth talking to understand this without having it explained to them.
Hey, wait, I'm starting to realize Santorum's point re: college. I learned all these things in college! And because of that I will never support a dipshit like Santorum.
27
"Look at the map... where are the biggest pockets of blue? In the cities."
That's funny, when I look at a county-level map of the 2008 presidential election ( http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mejn/elec… ), the biggest pockets of blue appear to be in New England and Wisconsin/Minnesota/Iowa/Illinois.
That's funny, when I look at a county-level map of the 2008 presidential election ( http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mejn/elec… ), the biggest pockets of blue appear to be in New England and Wisconsin/Minnesota/Iowa/Illinois.
28
@22 - well, he was a Democrat up through, what, 1989? Which is probably later than when most other Southerners used to be Democrats, I would guess. Anyways, with this group, only one of them mentioned the "used to be a Democrat" thing, but almost all of them felt like he was an opportunist who didn't have any real principles (I believe one of them said he is an "empty suit"). I just assumed that part of that was based on the fact that he switched parties.
Best part of that conversation was that they spent all this time ripping him to shreds ("not ready to be President", etc.), but then said they'd still vote for him over Obama.
Best part of that conversation was that they spent all this time ripping him to shreds ("not ready to be President", etc.), but then said they'd still vote for him over Obama.
29
Matt@12 & Doctor Memory....see also Mitt Romney.
Thanks for sharing the back-story on the amazing photo. I suspect that Frothy is opposed to higher education because he knows that very few highly educated folks would ever give him the time of day, much less vote for him.
Thanks for sharing the back-story on the amazing photo. I suspect that Frothy is opposed to higher education because he knows that very few highly educated folks would ever give him the time of day, much less vote for him.
30
Anybody not swift enough to see the meme potential in that sign does not have a brain that moves fast enough to be Presidential.
31
I think Santorum is bringing up a pretty valid issue. If 62% of people with religious faith come out of college with a more secular/humanist world view (although I wonder where that number comes from) and it becomes increasingly difficult for people to go to college, we could see an increase in fundamentalism. Liberals could be a dying species.
33
@ 24, I met Newt Gingrich in 1995. It could have been that he was on top of the world then, but he was quite charming and personable. His eyes had that hard look they've always had, but it seems like most people don't really look at a politician's eyes, which are almost always not matching the smiles plastered on their mugs, unless it's all crazy looking like Michele Bachmann.
34
@7: As a Texan myself, I would like to second what you said. I know plenty of rich older conservatives who would be perfectly happy to smile in the face of a gay person, a union member, or a poor person (at least, one of the nouveau pauvre, anyway), invite them in for sweet tea and corn muffins, and then, come November, vote against gay rights, labor rights, and healthcare reform. It's utterly baffling, and, as someone else said, has to be a product of utter refusal to believe anyone is actually harmed by their politics.
35
@27, stop being ridiculous. One blue county in, say, New York, Chicago, or Los Angeles contains many millions more people than most of those red counties.
36
@7 again: ...or maybe as you said, haha. That's what I get for not going back to reread the comment I'm replying to...
37
@35, I was only responding to what Santorum said, not saying it was a valid indicator of anything.
39
Life expectancy for white men in Massachusetts in 1850: 38.3 years.
That number is a bit misleading: 1/3 of white males died before reaching age 10. The rest would reach an average age of 58.
Oh what glorious time it must have been.
That number is a bit misleading: 1/3 of white males died before reaching age 10. The rest would reach an average age of 58.
Oh what glorious time it must have been.
40
@15
I agree with your point but I think that was more a literary device used to gain sympathy when you are trying to say something that another person seriously disagrees with than a literal statement. Similar to saying, "I'm not saying that being pegged with a razor studded strapon doesn't have its merits but it is a medically proven fact that if you do it you will bleed out and die horribly."
I agree with your point but I think that was more a literary device used to gain sympathy when you are trying to say something that another person seriously disagrees with than a literal statement. Similar to saying, "I'm not saying that being pegged with a razor studded strapon doesn't have its merits but it is a medically proven fact that if you do it you will bleed out and die horribly."
41
Wait, don't most Americans live in cities? Given that we are a "majority rules" country, wouldn't that imply then that the people in the cities are the "real Americans"?
42
matt@33: huh, not what I would have expected. But then again, most of the Bad Newt stories come from people unfortunate enough to work with/for him, not random people in a crowd he was working, so fair enough.
43
In 1850, you would almost certainly have worked on a farm, and your annual income would be a tiny fraction of what it is today, even after adjusting for inflation. If you were non-white, of course, your income would almost certainly have been zero. And the farm work you'd be doing would be ten times harder than most farm workers endure today. You would be considered fortunate to own even one book, which would probably be the Bible. Your chances of having your house or barn burn down, of losing a limb or worse in an accident, of getting sick with cholera or smallpox, of being the victim of a violent crime, or any of a thousand other terrifying hardships, would be many, many times what they are today.
44
@41 - Oh you with your cwazy, college-educated critical thinking skills!
I'm reminded of one of my fave quotes from Quatermass.. As the deluded hippies are smashing up the scientific equipment, a hippie girl screams "STOP TRYING TO KNOW THINGS!".
Shee-it, that could be a Republican rallying cry in this day'n'age!
I'm reminded of one of my fave quotes from Quatermass.. As the deluded hippies are smashing up the scientific equipment, a hippie girl screams "STOP TRYING TO KNOW THINGS!".
Shee-it, that could be a Republican rallying cry in this day'n'age!
45
@41- No, Real Americans agree with the NeoCon agenda. While the majority of people living in American may disagree, that only shows they aren't Real Americans and should not be treated with as much respect especially when it comes to voting rights.
46
It is particularly just that the golden opportunity to create the santorum colored sign should go to two Pennsylvanians. Who are these unsung heroes anyway?
47
Americans of course are generally nice people and will help you out face to face, be polite, smile etc, regardless of political affiliation, esp when in their own comfy environment. Something about civility. But somewhere the idea of other people, or the idea that other people hold different, often conflicting values is enough to stir up their hate. And polite waspy hate is quite sharp and authoritarian.
48
@ 42, that was all I meant anyway. They're all like that when working a crowd. I'm sure he's quite vile behind closed doors.
49
Anyway, can we talk about the color of that paint? I think its more like a creamy beige with daubs of ochre and umber.
50
@28, One thing Perry has been consistent on is cutting taxes. But it only works up to a point.
My brother is Republican, but has two kids starting school and HATES Perry for what the schools are becoming.
My brother is Republican, but has two kids starting school and HATES Perry for what the schools are becoming.
51
@31: Yes, anti-intellectualism is a calculated effort on the part of 'Conservative' leaders to undermine the critical thinking and exposure to people and ideas from diverse cultural backgrounds that many get from college and tend to undermine support for theocratic, xenophobic, neophobic, hyper-normative, pro-privilege, magical-thinking-based, or otherwise 'Conservative' policy initiatives. There is a long tradition of the elite hoarding knowledge in order to maintain power, as those in power tend to use Natural Order/God's Will to justify the status quo, and greater knowledge tends to expose the lie.
53
This shit -- especially the Barney Frank comment -- infuriates me. So I googled "Rick Santorum" just to click on spreadingsantorum.com. It's fallen from the #1 spot, y'all. Let's get clicking, shall we?
54
A slight defense of 1850 USA being 'pretty good': it makes more sense if your comparisons are other places in 1850.
Compare 1850 USA with 1850 Sweden or 1850 China and it isn't so silly. And granted, it would clearly be preferable to be male and white in 1850 USA, but it would clearly be preferable to be male and in the majority ethnic group in 1850 Sweden or 1850 China.
http://www.gladwell.com/outliers/outlier…
Compare 1850 USA with 1850 Sweden or 1850 China and it isn't so silly. And granted, it would clearly be preferable to be male and white in 1850 USA, but it would clearly be preferable to be male and in the majority ethnic group in 1850 Sweden or 1850 China.
http://www.gladwell.com/outliers/outlier…
55
@34
Umm, in fact, no.
Let's talk about disastrous policy effects, if you want.
Take away the costs from making stupid decisions from a generation or two and what do you get? You get Greece, or Italy or Portugal trembling on the verge of bankruptcy from their stupid social policies.
More importantly you get a population of perpetual adolescents. They want immediate gratification of whatever urge strikes them, and they want someone else to pay for it. After 80 years of the kinds of policies FDR and Johnson espouse, who's to tell them no? You folks see it as immoral to suggest that someone who had 4 kids they couldn't afford shouldn't be housed, fed, clothed, given a higher education and given medical care by their more careful neighbors who make more money. That's the kind of ass backward childish culture you get from liberal social policies.
I'm willing to live with a few short term effects of austerity, of a return to legitimate Constitutional government policies, if the net effect is a better stronger nation. I'm even more willing to do so knowing that it isn't my personal responsibility to take care of everyone too lazy to do so for themselves.
I won't get into the made up issue of gay rights. For those who've made a personal lifestyle choice, I fail to see why we should accord that choice any legal protections.
Umm, in fact, no.
Let's talk about disastrous policy effects, if you want.
Take away the costs from making stupid decisions from a generation or two and what do you get? You get Greece, or Italy or Portugal trembling on the verge of bankruptcy from their stupid social policies.
More importantly you get a population of perpetual adolescents. They want immediate gratification of whatever urge strikes them, and they want someone else to pay for it. After 80 years of the kinds of policies FDR and Johnson espouse, who's to tell them no? You folks see it as immoral to suggest that someone who had 4 kids they couldn't afford shouldn't be housed, fed, clothed, given a higher education and given medical care by their more careful neighbors who make more money. That's the kind of ass backward childish culture you get from liberal social policies.
I'm willing to live with a few short term effects of austerity, of a return to legitimate Constitutional government policies, if the net effect is a better stronger nation. I'm even more willing to do so knowing that it isn't my personal responsibility to take care of everyone too lazy to do so for themselves.
I won't get into the made up issue of gay rights. For those who've made a personal lifestyle choice, I fail to see why we should accord that choice any legal protections.
56
@31 and 51
Ha ha ha. It's funny because conservatives are so STUPID and you guys are so CLEVER.
Out of curiosity, do you ever get tired of the smarmy unwarranted affectation of superiority you feel toward anyone slightly to the right of you?
Let me educate you. I know 60 and 70 and 90 year old ranchers and orchardists and businessmen who can't live by your pretty childish theories. They have to live by reality, a notion foreign to liberals. The books must balance on practical economic theories, not Marxist bullshit, at the end of ht year. Capable foremen and workers may be asian or black or white or straight or gay, and it doesn't matter. What matters is their competence. Trees fruit, or cows mature, or wheat grows by real climate effects, not alarmist fantasies.
It isn't that these folks, the ones grounded in reality, think you stupid. Sure, they think you effete and short sighted and a bit immature in your political or economic thinking, but they don't necessarily think you stupid.
They just can't afford to play kindergarten with you, that's all.
(Parenthetically, I've had conversations about Plutarch and Socratic thought and Dante with old guys with calloused hands who work 14 or 16 hours a day during the spring and summer and fall but have a lot of winter time on their hands. Not being brainwashed by a liberal college doesn't make one illiterate or uneducated, just so you know. Only difference is, these guys can fix a tractor, or install a window where most Seattle liberals can only fuction within the theoretical nonsense they foolishly believe.)
Ha ha ha. It's funny because conservatives are so STUPID and you guys are so CLEVER.
Out of curiosity, do you ever get tired of the smarmy unwarranted affectation of superiority you feel toward anyone slightly to the right of you?
Let me educate you. I know 60 and 70 and 90 year old ranchers and orchardists and businessmen who can't live by your pretty childish theories. They have to live by reality, a notion foreign to liberals. The books must balance on practical economic theories, not Marxist bullshit, at the end of ht year. Capable foremen and workers may be asian or black or white or straight or gay, and it doesn't matter. What matters is their competence. Trees fruit, or cows mature, or wheat grows by real climate effects, not alarmist fantasies.
It isn't that these folks, the ones grounded in reality, think you stupid. Sure, they think you effete and short sighted and a bit immature in your political or economic thinking, but they don't necessarily think you stupid.
They just can't afford to play kindergarten with you, that's all.
(Parenthetically, I've had conversations about Plutarch and Socratic thought and Dante with old guys with calloused hands who work 14 or 16 hours a day during the spring and summer and fall but have a lot of winter time on their hands. Not being brainwashed by a liberal college doesn't make one illiterate or uneducated, just so you know. Only difference is, these guys can fix a tractor, or install a window where most Seattle liberals can only fuction within the theoretical nonsense they foolishly believe.)
57
@51 - "long tradition of the elite hoarding knowledge in order to maintain power, as those in power tend to use Natural Order/God's Will to justify the status quo, and greater knowledge tends to expose the lie." Doesn't that just kill the brain? They hoard knowledge - but knowledge exposes the lie.
I spend SO much time researching shit trying to find out what the objective facts of something are. And yet, so often, that doesn't seem to matter.
I spend SO much time researching shit trying to find out what the objective facts of something are. And yet, so often, that doesn't seem to matter.
59
My husband's work gets me pulled into the occasional Republican fund-raiser. The last one was especially jaw-dropping, as the opening speaker railed against illegal immigrants (to the enthusiastic joy of the crowd), then introduced the main speaker: Mark Rubio! Son of...illegal immigrants. But they were from Cuba, so they were freedom fighters, not scabby economic immigrants! (This has been lately debunked in the press, but at the time was taken for gospel.) It made me laugh - so if there was a communist in charge of Mexico, we'd welcome everybody who wanted to come? That would be the logic... The funniest line (to me alone, in that large, large ballroom) was when Rubio praised God that Cuba was only 90 miles from the US; after all, he might have ended up in some socialist hellhole like...Canada!
(BTW, don't you think the epitome of GGG is going to events like this to make your husband happy?)
(BTW, don't you think the epitome of GGG is going to events like this to make your husband happy?)
61
Final note, then I have real work to do.
It's a bit saddening that the obsessive and deviant crush you have on Santorum hasn't run it's course, Little Danny Boy the Savage. Really, there are plenty of perverts and deviants who will do all the sick things you want to do with Mr. Santorum. You should know, you are one. Just go to your usual bathhouse, or gay swingers club or wherever you have 'monogomish' sex with strangers, and slake your odd lusts there, all right?
I mean, it isn't as though there's even the faint cover of legitimate political discourse at play. Mr. Santorum holds no office. He's extremely unlikely to do so. His views aren't your business or that of the strange cadre of the delusional who make up the majority of your readership.
How about you take out a personals ad in your own little rag, and find some willing sicko rather than obsessing over a decent family man who would sooner have sex with a rabid elderly yak than you?
Merry Christmas, Little Danny Boy. Hope you and your boyfriend have the one you deserve, and the unfortunate boy being mis-raised by you has a happy one.
It's a bit saddening that the obsessive and deviant crush you have on Santorum hasn't run it's course, Little Danny Boy the Savage. Really, there are plenty of perverts and deviants who will do all the sick things you want to do with Mr. Santorum. You should know, you are one. Just go to your usual bathhouse, or gay swingers club or wherever you have 'monogomish' sex with strangers, and slake your odd lusts there, all right?
I mean, it isn't as though there's even the faint cover of legitimate political discourse at play. Mr. Santorum holds no office. He's extremely unlikely to do so. His views aren't your business or that of the strange cadre of the delusional who make up the majority of your readership.
How about you take out a personals ad in your own little rag, and find some willing sicko rather than obsessing over a decent family man who would sooner have sex with a rabid elderly yak than you?
Merry Christmas, Little Danny Boy. Hope you and your boyfriend have the one you deserve, and the unfortunate boy being mis-raised by you has a happy one.
62
College is not the enemy. The contraband in which they deal is this: knowledge. This is straight up old school biblical. Knowledge has always been the enemy of jehovah. Interesting to realize the ideologically hamstrung are still fighting the exact same fight.
63
@56 Well I didn't say that conservatives are stupid. I actually said that Santorum raised a good point. And my concern is with fundamentalism and not conservatives. But, sure, let's pursue your line of thinking.
Do I feel superior to anyone slightly to the right of me? Actually no, because most people are politically to the right of me. And I believe in open dialogue because I am a curious person. Most of my family is from the Midwest, coming from a farming family that also owned a bar in town. They are a big mix politically and religiously and we all get along.
And if you want to get into a discussion about what farmers think? What they have to deal with on a day to day basis and their economic reality, I am more than happy to have that discussion. I can speak extensively about what it's like in small town America too. One doesn't have to be a conservative to know about those issues. One just needs to have family or an ounce of interest.
Do I feel superior to anyone slightly to the right of me? Actually no, because most people are politically to the right of me. And I believe in open dialogue because I am a curious person. Most of my family is from the Midwest, coming from a farming family that also owned a bar in town. They are a big mix politically and religiously and we all get along.
And if you want to get into a discussion about what farmers think? What they have to deal with on a day to day basis and their economic reality, I am more than happy to have that discussion. I can speak extensively about what it's like in small town America too. One doesn't have to be a conservative to know about those issues. One just needs to have family or an ounce of interest.
64
Ooh, Seattleblues responded directly to one of my comments! I finally feel like a real part of Slog!
65
Wow, Seattleblues, I'm not sure I've seen such a mean-spirited comment from you in quite the while. Name-calling, implying Dan's a bad parent, referring to him by some juvenile nickname you must think is really clever--you've really hit a lot of bingos.
'obsessive and deviant'
'perverts and deviants'
'odd lusts'
'willing sicko'
You sure do spend a lot of time thinking about Dan's supposed sex life. And if that 'decent family man' would rather have sex with 'a rabid elderly yak' than with a nice young man, what does that say about the supposed family man? I think one is far more perverse than the other, myself.
'obsessive and deviant'
'perverts and deviants'
'odd lusts'
'willing sicko'
You sure do spend a lot of time thinking about Dan's supposed sex life. And if that 'decent family man' would rather have sex with 'a rabid elderly yak' than with a nice young man, what does that say about the supposed family man? I think one is far more perverse than the other, myself.
66
Seattleblues is right! Stop talking about the political positions of politicians running for office, particularly Priesident of the United Sates. It is none of your business.
68
@61 Speaking of obsessive and deviant crushes. How many changes of underwear did you go through just typing that comment alone?
69
@67
If you can support anything Savage or the Stranger write, you wouldn't know evil if it bit you on the ass.
@Clashfan
I don't know that anyone with any life experience hasn't felt the agony of unrequited love. Certainly I have.
What this has to do with the social construct of marriage, however, escapes me.
Further I didn't imply that Savage was a bad parent, a bad citizen, a bad man. I directly state it. With full understanding of the word and what it means, Savage is evil. Unable to comport himself in ways his society finds acceptable he revolted. Now, if he had done so privately, that's his business. But to evangelize his depravity? To not be content until each and every person he can convert is converted to his deviancy and general immorality? That isn't taking your life into your hands against the general social mores. That isn't living your life as you see fit regardless what others may think. That's chaos and destruction and, yes, evil.
Yes, I wrote that he was a bad parent. What else would you call a man who models excess and perversion and immorality instead of discipline and control and decency for his child? What else would you call a man who put his selfish desire to pass on his own evil to an innocent kid ahead of the well being of that child, and adopted when he is so clearly unfit to care even for a dog?
Rick Santorum may be wrong, in your eyes. He may hold political views you dislike, even hate. What he doesn't do is inculcate social chaos, a general destruction of the cultural and moral fabric that makes our society possible. No, he leaves that for the likes of Dan Savage.
I'm wrong about many things. I know that. I live according to the rules I find best within the law, and what others may think of it doesn't interest me. But I do this myself, and accept the conequences myself. Savage is an unholy admixture of willful toddler and the most viciously depraved of sexual deviants, and he has the right to destroy his own life that way. Provided he keeps this private, and accepts what follows from his choices, I don't care about them one way or the other. When he tries to destroy a social and moral order out of arrogant hatred for what he can't attain to, then I care. Deeply.
More...
If you can support anything Savage or the Stranger write, you wouldn't know evil if it bit you on the ass.
@Clashfan
I don't know that anyone with any life experience hasn't felt the agony of unrequited love. Certainly I have.
What this has to do with the social construct of marriage, however, escapes me.
Further I didn't imply that Savage was a bad parent, a bad citizen, a bad man. I directly state it. With full understanding of the word and what it means, Savage is evil. Unable to comport himself in ways his society finds acceptable he revolted. Now, if he had done so privately, that's his business. But to evangelize his depravity? To not be content until each and every person he can convert is converted to his deviancy and general immorality? That isn't taking your life into your hands against the general social mores. That isn't living your life as you see fit regardless what others may think. That's chaos and destruction and, yes, evil.
Yes, I wrote that he was a bad parent. What else would you call a man who models excess and perversion and immorality instead of discipline and control and decency for his child? What else would you call a man who put his selfish desire to pass on his own evil to an innocent kid ahead of the well being of that child, and adopted when he is so clearly unfit to care even for a dog?
Rick Santorum may be wrong, in your eyes. He may hold political views you dislike, even hate. What he doesn't do is inculcate social chaos, a general destruction of the cultural and moral fabric that makes our society possible. No, he leaves that for the likes of Dan Savage.
I'm wrong about many things. I know that. I live according to the rules I find best within the law, and what others may think of it doesn't interest me. But I do this myself, and accept the conequences myself. Savage is an unholy admixture of willful toddler and the most viciously depraved of sexual deviants, and he has the right to destroy his own life that way. Provided he keeps this private, and accepts what follows from his choices, I don't care about them one way or the other. When he tries to destroy a social and moral order out of arrogant hatred for what he can't attain to, then I care. Deeply.
70
@68
I don't know whether Savage the physical man is physically as repulsive as Savage the moral man unquestionably is. I couldn't tell you what he looks like, since I've not to my knowledge seen him.
I haven't seen Bubonic Plague under a microscope either, but don't think it would alter my thinking about the disease if I had.
I don't know whether Savage the physical man is physically as repulsive as Savage the moral man unquestionably is. I couldn't tell you what he looks like, since I've not to my knowledge seen him.
I haven't seen Bubonic Plague under a microscope either, but don't think it would alter my thinking about the disease if I had.
71
for some stark and pathetic examples of bigots lashing out see;
Rick Perry w/ that "Brokeback" ad, the Florida Family Association, & anything ever spewed forth by seattleblues.
Rick Perry w/ that "Brokeback" ad, the Florida Family Association, & anything ever spewed forth by seattleblues.
72
@56 I don't know why I even bother since you clearly can't be bothered to educate yourself but...
"Trees fruit, or cows mature, or wheat grows by real climate effects..."
Yes, yes they do. Which is why any farmer with an ounce of intelligence should be paying attention to what you choose to refer to as "alarmist fantasies". Look at what happened to real life ranchers in Texas last year, that's just a small glimpse of what they are likely in for in the future. Covering your ears and yelling "La La La La" as you and your ilk are want to do isn't going to make the problem go away.
"Trees fruit, or cows mature, or wheat grows by real climate effects..."
Yes, yes they do. Which is why any farmer with an ounce of intelligence should be paying attention to what you choose to refer to as "alarmist fantasies". Look at what happened to real life ranchers in Texas last year, that's just a small glimpse of what they are likely in for in the future. Covering your ears and yelling "La La La La" as you and your ilk are want to do isn't going to make the problem go away.
73
@69 Actually it is Rick Santorum who is eroding the moral fabric that makes our society possible. America needs an educated work force to compete in the global economy. Santorum wants to keep everybody ignorant and working in a steel mill because he is afraid that if we let our children read any book other than the Bible they will decide that butt sex isn't a one way ticket to Hell.
75
You've got a pretty fucking weird definition of "evil," Sb. My standard for what's evil tends to be based on, you know, things that actually hurt people instead of helping them.
You have to be more than a little bit bent in the brain to look at a guy who spends his entire career trying to make other people's lives better - a little at a time in their own bedrooms, or all over the world trying to spare them from psychological and literal violence - and think, "That motherfucker is just straight-up evil. Man, I hate him so much for doing good things for those people I think are wrong about something. I think they're so wrong that I bet the things he does are, like, toxic somehow or something, even though I have no actual material indication that that is the case."
Seriously, you're fucking ridiculous. Have you even listened to yourself at any point in the last several years?
You have to be more than a little bit bent in the brain to look at a guy who spends his entire career trying to make other people's lives better - a little at a time in their own bedrooms, or all over the world trying to spare them from psychological and literal violence - and think, "That motherfucker is just straight-up evil. Man, I hate him so much for doing good things for those people I think are wrong about something. I think they're so wrong that I bet the things he does are, like, toxic somehow or something, even though I have no actual material indication that that is the case."
Seriously, you're fucking ridiculous. Have you even listened to yourself at any point in the last several years?
77
@ Seattleblues:
Tell me, what are your thoughts about runaway slaves? Or suffragists? Or civil rights activists? It seems to me that one could fairly claim that "unable to comport themselves in ways their society found acceptable, they revolted." Please note that I'm not implying that the position of gay people in modern America is interchangeable with that of other historically (or currently) marginalized groups; I'm simply pointing out that social nonconformity hardly constitutes unilateral proof of moral inferiority. Even the most cursory look at human history will show that prevailing social mores can be, and frequently are, inimical to human freedom, equality, and dignity. Blind adherence to "tradition" is an act of moral cowardice, not rectitude.
So you're a global-warming denialist as well as a homophobe? Charming.
Tell me, what are your thoughts about runaway slaves? Or suffragists? Or civil rights activists? It seems to me that one could fairly claim that "unable to comport themselves in ways their society found acceptable, they revolted." Please note that I'm not implying that the position of gay people in modern America is interchangeable with that of other historically (or currently) marginalized groups; I'm simply pointing out that social nonconformity hardly constitutes unilateral proof of moral inferiority. Even the most cursory look at human history will show that prevailing social mores can be, and frequently are, inimical to human freedom, equality, and dignity. Blind adherence to "tradition" is an act of moral cowardice, not rectitude.
Trees fruit, or cows mature, or wheat grows by real climate effects, not alarmist fantasies.
So you're a global-warming denialist as well as a homophobe? Charming.
78
@77-"Even the most cursory look at human history will show that prevailing social mores can be, and frequently are, inimical to human freedom, equality, and dignity."
SB does not give a rat's ass about human freedom, equality, and dignity.
SB does not give a rat's ass about human freedom, equality, and dignity.
79
Santorum- OMG ALL COLLEGES ARE LIBERAL HELLHOLES. If that's the case, then all scientists, engineers, etc etc are all liberal douchebags and whatever advances their making in medicine and technology are not really happening because they're not really educated.
Maybe these parents should themselves take more responisbility: if your child comes back a little less adamant about religion and compromsing the values that you yourselves instilled in them maybe you're just not doing a good enough job instilling said values in the first place. Re-educate, re-instill, whatever, but accept your apparent initial shortcoming in parenting/religious educating and stop blaming others, Since conservatives are all about personal responsibility you wold think this would be a non-issue.
I've known plenty of educated religious types and the good ones seem to understand that there's not much that God can teach you about electrical engineering.
80
I suppose the only logical conclusion is that Seattleblues either wishes that he were Dan, or that he were Terry. Or else, how can we explain his letters being only composed of expressions of emotion, without any actual attempt at arguing in favor of or against anything?
I wish you a Merry Christmas, SB, full of the hope that if you ponder Christ's message, you'll see the error of your ways, repent, and ask Dan for forgiveness. It isn't as hard as you may think.
I wish you a Merry Christmas, SB, full of the hope that if you ponder Christ's message, you'll see the error of your ways, repent, and ask Dan for forgiveness. It isn't as hard as you may think.
81
It's funny one should be surprised that conservatives can be warm and friendly -- after all, what you need for that is simply having had good friends and good emotional experiences with them. And that does not depend on your political views and the (in)correctness thereof.
I am sure conservatives who meet liberals/progressives are just as surprised to find out the latter can also be warm, friendly people.
The basic problem is that we're always stereotyping our enemies as mustache-twirling villains who could only espouse the views they do by virtue of being inherently evil. Since we're obviously right, and they're obviously wrong, what else could explain their not agreeing with us?
And the oft-missed point is that so many liberals and so many conservatives are actually so similar to each other in their everyday life... If they spent more time reflecting on this fact, the tendency to demonize each other might decrease, and people might start having interesting conversations, real debates instead of O'Reilly-esque "cultural warfare" sessions.
I am sure conservatives who meet liberals/progressives are just as surprised to find out the latter can also be warm, friendly people.
The basic problem is that we're always stereotyping our enemies as mustache-twirling villains who could only espouse the views they do by virtue of being inherently evil. Since we're obviously right, and they're obviously wrong, what else could explain their not agreeing with us?
And the oft-missed point is that so many liberals and so many conservatives are actually so similar to each other in their everyday life... If they spent more time reflecting on this fact, the tendency to demonize each other might decrease, and people might start having interesting conversations, real debates instead of O'Reilly-esque "cultural warfare" sessions.
82
@55 - but it's not liberal ideas and policies that have weakened your nation. It's a refusal to implement sane regulatory policies, and some very unsound decisions on world affairs. No amount of cutting back welfare will fix that, because welfare isn't the problem.
83
Seattleblues, a response in two parts:
First, I am not talking about unrequited love. I am talking about two people who wish to marry, to share their lives. It's not just about sexual behavior, but about love and companionship. If you had lived in the Southern US pre-1967, you and your wife would not have been able to marry. How would that make you feel? Please, take a moment and consider it. Doesn't that feel unjust? Now what if someone told you, "Well, you have the right to marry any white woman--you just chose to love her. Tough." Don't know about you, but I'd be hopping mad.
Second, if you find Dan Savage so evil, why do you hang around here so often? I understand exposing yourself to liberal points of view, to avoid the wind tunnel effect that so many of us fall into. But surely there must be other sites that don't have the moral depravity you find here.
Whoever battles with monsters had better see that it does not turn him into a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
--Nietzsche
First, I am not talking about unrequited love. I am talking about two people who wish to marry, to share their lives. It's not just about sexual behavior, but about love and companionship. If you had lived in the Southern US pre-1967, you and your wife would not have been able to marry. How would that make you feel? Please, take a moment and consider it. Doesn't that feel unjust? Now what if someone told you, "Well, you have the right to marry any white woman--you just chose to love her. Tough." Don't know about you, but I'd be hopping mad.
Second, if you find Dan Savage so evil, why do you hang around here so often? I understand exposing yourself to liberal points of view, to avoid the wind tunnel effect that so many of us fall into. But surely there must be other sites that don't have the moral depravity you find here.
Whoever battles with monsters had better see that it does not turn him into a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
--Nietzsche
85
@83 For Seattleblues to benefit from exposing himself to alternative points of view he'd have to be willing to engage in serious debate and to admit that he's been proven wrong on numerous occasions. Furthermore he'd have to actually read the posts and the comments, not just skim over them and then repeat the same empty rhetoric he trots out for everything else.
I'm sorry, but the quote from Nietzsche isn't appropriate because Seattleblues isn't staring into the abyss. He is the abyss.
I'm sorry, but the quote from Nietzsche isn't appropriate because Seattleblues isn't staring into the abyss. He is the abyss.
86
I don't think that universities destroy faith. 62% of people come back from college less religious after higher education (apparently, but I haven't found that statistic cited anywhere). But what does less religious mean? I doubt its a descent into total atheism, as he implies. Maybe religious kids go to college, read some Plato, and start actually defining faith for themselves instead of by what their church leaders say. Higher education doesn't destroy faith, it destroys fanaticism.
88
Re discussion of whether life was good in America in 1850 - the guest author mentioned 1850 as an example of a time when life in America was not so good (contra Santorum's posturing), presumably due to all those reasons provided @15, 18, 23, 26, 43.
GhostDog already pointed that out @40, but I just wanted to repeat it.
GhostDog already pointed that out @40, but I just wanted to repeat it.
89
Oh and guys, stop feeding the troll. Just because this one has a name doesn't mean you have to feed it. What's next, you'll give it rabies vaccinations, ID tags? Stop feeding the damn troll, it's not interested in discourse.
90
@82 The federal government spends a lot more on entitlements (Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, etc) than on national defense. You can see how that works here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/spe…
The American people need to either pay higher taxes or receive fewer services than they do now. So far they have refused to do either which is why the deficit spending is out of control.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/spe…
The American people need to either pay higher taxes or receive fewer services than they do now. So far they have refused to do either which is why the deficit spending is out of control.
92
Santorum says that higher education indoctrinates liberal thinking, but the way it really works is, once someone becomes educated they realize the flaws in conservatism.
93
@90: defense spending in america is many times larger than in any other nation on the planet. SS is trust fund, taxed separately, and should not be lumped in with the rest of the budget. it should also not be raided by the government.
yes, the american people need to pay higher taxes, and less of them need to go to the military. then we might get MORE and BETTER services. rather than iraq-shaped holes to dump our money into.
yes, the american people need to pay higher taxes, and less of them need to go to the military. then we might get MORE and BETTER services. rather than iraq-shaped holes to dump our money into.
94
@93 I agree that defense spending ought to be a bit lower, but I think we should be wary of cutting military spending to much. After WWII the defense budget was cut by 65%. That didn't turn out to be such a good idea because when the reds invaded South Korea we were unprepared. The US is by far the wealthiest and most influential democratic country in the world today and anybody who reads comic books knows that with great power come great responsibility. We need a strong military to carry out our unique global role.
95
@94- "After WWII the defense budget was cut by 65%. That didn't turn out to be such a good idea because when the reds invaded South Korea we were unprepared."
Which is why we lost the Korean War. Oh wait, we won that one. It was the Vietnam War we lost, even though we had built up a much larger military.
Which is why we lost the Korean War. Oh wait, we won that one. It was the Vietnam War we lost, even though we had built up a much larger military.
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