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News & ArtsMonday, December 12, 2011
Health Just Like Me
Posted by Charles Mudede on Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 8:45 AM
The story:
The picture above of 20-year-old Lizzie Miller graced page 194 of the September 2009 Glamour magazine. Miller is a size 12-14 and heard from agencies that she was too big to be a plus size model. In the modeling industry, size 8-10 is the “plus size” range, which is crazy when you consider that Miller is an average (or even slightly below-average) sized woman.After the magazine hit newsstands, the publishers received over 700 emails and comments from women delighted to see a normal-sized model on the pages.
The video:
The analysis:
Two things. One, the culture critic Stanley Crouch was, in the 80s, the only black American intellectual to openly defend Michael Jackson's decision to transform his nose from flat to narrow, from, in essence, African to European. According to Crouch, humans are always changing themselves, always want to be what they are not. We wear clothes, put on makeup, jewelry, perfume—where exactly should the line between our bodies and culture be drawn? Also, the argument against the narrowing of Jackson's nose was based on a problematic idea of what is natural and unnatural. Jackson's flat nose was considered natural (given to him by God), his narrow nose was unnatural (manmade). But what about spectacles? They correct the bad vision given to us by nature. Nature, in short, should not be our final standard. Crouch was correct: Authenticity is not all that.
Two: This business of "normal women" wanting to see in magazines models who look like just like them (and this is an old gripe) sounds an awful like people who want their leaders to think exactly as they do. Wanting to see someone who looks better than you is much like wanting a leader who knows more than you. The problem (to get to the point) is most of us are overweight and need to lose a few pounds. This takes work and time. Calories are not scarce in our society; they are everywhere. These thin women (and in my case, muscular men) remind us of the effort that's needed to improve or transform our unhealthy bodies. This is precisely why we call them models. The most human want is the want to be what we are not.
2
My problem with analysis #1 is that (most) people don't get glasses for vanity reasons. From an objective perspective, MJ did not need to have a nose job in order to function safely in society.
Changing the analagy to something like braces, and you have yourself an argument.
Changing the analagy to something like braces, and you have yourself an argument.
3
Models have healthy bodies?
Are you insane?
Check out unretouched photos of runway models, their ribs and clavicles stand out like those of Dachau escapees.
I worked at a fashion magazine nearly 40 years ago, and models then were impossibly tall and thin -- impossible for most women to grow that tall, for one, or maintain that thinness without starvation -- and that was before the current trend toward anorexia victims was the requirement that it is today.
And even then airbrushing was required to cut into the normal curve of hip and thigh, erase the stretch marks and so on and so forth.
Photoshopping has created a whole new level of insanity: waists carved in beyond Barbie-ideals, toothpicks as arms, pipe cleaner legs.
A simple Google search would have turned up the recent reports of models who starved themselves to death.
Maybe -- maybe -- male models are encouraged to have gym workout bodies, but the last thing in likely in this world is a female model with a healthy body.
Are you insane?
Check out unretouched photos of runway models, their ribs and clavicles stand out like those of Dachau escapees.
I worked at a fashion magazine nearly 40 years ago, and models then were impossibly tall and thin -- impossible for most women to grow that tall, for one, or maintain that thinness without starvation -- and that was before the current trend toward anorexia victims was the requirement that it is today.
And even then airbrushing was required to cut into the normal curve of hip and thigh, erase the stretch marks and so on and so forth.
Photoshopping has created a whole new level of insanity: waists carved in beyond Barbie-ideals, toothpicks as arms, pipe cleaner legs.
A simple Google search would have turned up the recent reports of models who starved themselves to death.
Maybe -- maybe -- male models are encouraged to have gym workout bodies, but the last thing in likely in this world is a female model with a healthy body.
4
@2, but the braces analogy fails because nature can be seen as still perfect. im attacking the very idea that nature is the ground of truth. prescription glasses show this is not true.
5
The problem with ultra skinny models, is that they portray an unhealthy ideal. When skinny teenage girls are anorexic because they think they are "fat", we have a cultural problem. Showing clothes and bodies off to best advantage is one thing. Photo shopping pictures of models who are already too thin, to make them even thinner is damaging. If we need to damage the self esteem of young girls just to sell a product we have a big cultural problem.
Yes most of us are fatter than is healthy, but we also need to feel good about ourselves, and constantly being told by every cultural image that we are ugly because we have a few extra pounds is damn near criminal. It is also counter-productive. Most women actually take better care of themselves, when they are emotionally healthy and happy. Being constantly told you are fat and ugly does not help.
Finally, having zero body fat is not healthy. I'm not sure how they have come up with the "healthy" level of body fat that they do, but I have serious doubts that 10-20 pounds above their "ideal" is unhealthy. We are just so skinny-obsessed that we have been trained to see ANY fat as too much fat.
Yes most of us are fatter than is healthy, but we also need to feel good about ourselves, and constantly being told by every cultural image that we are ugly because we have a few extra pounds is damn near criminal. It is also counter-productive. Most women actually take better care of themselves, when they are emotionally healthy and happy. Being constantly told you are fat and ugly does not help.
Finally, having zero body fat is not healthy. I'm not sure how they have come up with the "healthy" level of body fat that they do, but I have serious doubts that 10-20 pounds above their "ideal" is unhealthy. We are just so skinny-obsessed that we have been trained to see ANY fat as too much fat.
6
4), sorry, but being thin and consuming less calories is healthier. im not talking culture; im talking science.
7
Tell that to the models -- including a male model -- who starved themselves to death.
http://www.google.com/search?q=model+sta…
http://www.google.com/search?q=model+sta…
8
Oh, and by the by, those are only the models who made the news by starving themsleves to death.
I worked for a fashion magazine, briefly, and those news reports are only the tip of the iceberg for the health problems caused by anorexia in the fashion industry.
I worked for a fashion magazine, briefly, and those news reports are only the tip of the iceberg for the health problems caused by anorexia in the fashion industry.
9
Good Morning Charles,
Beauty certainly is in the eye of the beholder but I'm not so sure "conformity" is. I like Crouch's opinions by & large but I'm not totally agreeing with him regarding MJ. Seems MJ did much more than tweak his nose. I think he wanted to be something entirely different and became an oddity in the long run (his behavior contributed to that).
However, it appears to me that surgery, makeup & adornments reach a point of diminishing returns. Quickly for some individuals depending. We age or become freaks. Or, perhaps both. Surgery can be dangerous too. I have no problem with a "natural" look or people adorning themselves. This gal deserves some credit for being herself. It's OK to be big and beautiful. On the other hand, we still must take care of ourselves. You're right, we are an obese nation. That's not attractive or healthy.
Still, I can't help but wonder if it is uncomfortable to "conform". Years ago I read in the NYT of how some African female models working in London, Paris or NYC would return to their homeland and the locals thought they were ill or unattractive because they lost so much weight working in Europe and America as models. They were healthy all right. They merely returned to a society/culture that values "big" especially women as beautiful.
Beauty certainly is in the eye of the beholder but I'm not so sure "conformity" is. I like Crouch's opinions by & large but I'm not totally agreeing with him regarding MJ. Seems MJ did much more than tweak his nose. I think he wanted to be something entirely different and became an oddity in the long run (his behavior contributed to that).
However, it appears to me that surgery, makeup & adornments reach a point of diminishing returns. Quickly for some individuals depending. We age or become freaks. Or, perhaps both. Surgery can be dangerous too. I have no problem with a "natural" look or people adorning themselves. This gal deserves some credit for being herself. It's OK to be big and beautiful. On the other hand, we still must take care of ourselves. You're right, we are an obese nation. That's not attractive or healthy.
Still, I can't help but wonder if it is uncomfortable to "conform". Years ago I read in the NYT of how some African female models working in London, Paris or NYC would return to their homeland and the locals thought they were ill or unattractive because they lost so much weight working in Europe and America as models. They were healthy all right. They merely returned to a society/culture that values "big" especially women as beautiful.
10
But Charles, you're in good company: guards at concentration camps in WW II shared your viewpoint of "health," at least in regard to what they fed the Jews.
12
As for the "science":
"The article in The Age stated that physicians and psychologists are appalled by the glamorization of a condition that leads one in ten people diagnosed with it to die, half from suicide and half from other complications related to anorexia nervosa. Farther into the article it was then stated that,
About five million people in the United States, most of them teenage girls, have anorexia, a psychological condition closely associated with low self-esteem [sic], intense perfectionism, and a pressing need for control. At least 1000 people diagnosed with anorexia die each year."
Research suggests that about one percent (1%) of female adolescents have anorexia. That means that about one out of every one hundred young women between ten and twenty are starving themselves, sometimes to death!
Research suggests that about four percent (4%), or four out of one hundred, college-aged women have bulimia.
About 50% of people who have been anorexic develop bulimia or bulimic patterns. Because people with bulimia are secretive, it is difficult to know how many older people are affected. Bulimia is rare in children.
· Approximately 7 million girls and women struggle with eating disorders
· Approximately 1 million boys and men struggle with eating disorders
Amount of people affected by specific eating disorders:
· 0.5% - 3.7% of females suffer from Anorexia Nervosa in their lifetime
· 1.1% - 4.2% of females suffer from Bulimia Nervosa in their lifetime
· 2% - 5% of the American population experience Binge Eating Disorder
· 10%-25% of all those battling anorexia will die as a direct result of the eating disorder
· Up to 19% of college aged women in America are bulimic...
Eating disorders have the highest mortality rate of any psychological disease
http://anadeath.webs.com/statistics.htm
More...
"The article in The Age stated that physicians and psychologists are appalled by the glamorization of a condition that leads one in ten people diagnosed with it to die, half from suicide and half from other complications related to anorexia nervosa. Farther into the article it was then stated that,
About five million people in the United States, most of them teenage girls, have anorexia, a psychological condition closely associated with low self-esteem [sic], intense perfectionism, and a pressing need for control. At least 1000 people diagnosed with anorexia die each year."
Research suggests that about one percent (1%) of female adolescents have anorexia. That means that about one out of every one hundred young women between ten and twenty are starving themselves, sometimes to death!
Research suggests that about four percent (4%), or four out of one hundred, college-aged women have bulimia.
About 50% of people who have been anorexic develop bulimia or bulimic patterns. Because people with bulimia are secretive, it is difficult to know how many older people are affected. Bulimia is rare in children.
· Approximately 7 million girls and women struggle with eating disorders
· Approximately 1 million boys and men struggle with eating disorders
Amount of people affected by specific eating disorders:
· 0.5% - 3.7% of females suffer from Anorexia Nervosa in their lifetime
· 1.1% - 4.2% of females suffer from Bulimia Nervosa in their lifetime
· 2% - 5% of the American population experience Binge Eating Disorder
· 10%-25% of all those battling anorexia will die as a direct result of the eating disorder
· Up to 19% of college aged women in America are bulimic...
Eating disorders have the highest mortality rate of any psychological disease
http://anadeath.webs.com/statistics.htm
13
By your own standards, Charles, you look like you could lose 50 or 60 pounds.
Why aren't you starving yourself to model thinness?
Why aren't you starving yourself to model thinness?
15
@6, Actually, science says it's far healthier to be slightly overweight than to be slightly underweight. We, as humans, have a tendency to carry extra weight for a reason. Slightly overweight people fight infection better, get sick less often, and live longer lives.
""Some evidence suggests that modestly higher weights may improve survival in a number of circumstances, which may partly explain our findings regarding overweight. Overweight is not strongly associated with increased cancer or CVD risk, but may be associated with improved survival during recovery from adverse conditions, such as infections or medical procedures, and with improved prognosis for some diseases. Such findings may be due to greater nutritional reserves or higher lean body mass associated with overweight," the authors write."
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/200…
Also, extra fat around the thighs appears to be out and out good, at least when you're old: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/200…
So before you tell women to try to look like fashion models - I'd have to miraculously grow about 6 of 7 inches and lose some serious bone width - my pelvis is a size 8. Not my hips , my pelvis. I can see and feel it and it ain't getting any smaller no matter what I do. I suggest you look into the actual science regarding body fat and good v. bad body fat. Also, you might want to consider that female models differ from the majority of women in a way that male models do NOT differ from the majority of men: "For example,
typical female models are found to be 9% taller and 16% thinner than average American women (Zones 2005). The bodies of female models in Playboy magazine and Miss
America Pageant winners are found to be much smaller than average women (Spitzer, Henderson and Zivian 1999), and have become smaller over time (Garner, Garfinkel, Schwartz and Thompson 1980; Wiseman, Gray, Mosimann and Ahrens 1992).Regarding gender differences, research shows that media images of male bodies do not vary as greatly in size and shape from average adult male bodies (Spitzer, Henderson and Zivian 1999). Although ideal men in the media are portrayed as tall and muscular, their height, weight and body proportions do not deviate from those of average men as much as images of female bodies do."
http://digitalcommons.kennesaw.edu/cgi/v…
This comment brought to you with the help of a few simple google searches.
More...
""Some evidence suggests that modestly higher weights may improve survival in a number of circumstances, which may partly explain our findings regarding overweight. Overweight is not strongly associated with increased cancer or CVD risk, but may be associated with improved survival during recovery from adverse conditions, such as infections or medical procedures, and with improved prognosis for some diseases. Such findings may be due to greater nutritional reserves or higher lean body mass associated with overweight," the authors write."
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/200…
Also, extra fat around the thighs appears to be out and out good, at least when you're old: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/200…
So before you tell women to try to look like fashion models - I'd have to miraculously grow about 6 of 7 inches and lose some serious bone width - my pelvis is a size 8. Not my hips , my pelvis. I can see and feel it and it ain't getting any smaller no matter what I do. I suggest you look into the actual science regarding body fat and good v. bad body fat. Also, you might want to consider that female models differ from the majority of women in a way that male models do NOT differ from the majority of men: "For example,
typical female models are found to be 9% taller and 16% thinner than average American women (Zones 2005). The bodies of female models in Playboy magazine and Miss
America Pageant winners are found to be much smaller than average women (Spitzer, Henderson and Zivian 1999), and have become smaller over time (Garner, Garfinkel, Schwartz and Thompson 1980; Wiseman, Gray, Mosimann and Ahrens 1992).Regarding gender differences, research shows that media images of male bodies do not vary as greatly in size and shape from average adult male bodies (Spitzer, Henderson and Zivian 1999). Although ideal men in the media are portrayed as tall and muscular, their height, weight and body proportions do not deviate from those of average men as much as images of female bodies do."
http://digitalcommons.kennesaw.edu/cgi/v…
This comment brought to you with the help of a few simple google searches.
16
I don't care what adults do and think, but I do care that my daughter might start starving herself at 12.
17
Once again, your casual opinion laced with misogyny and not understanding women. That model was not fat, she looked healthy. Most women look like that. We don't have to always strive for the false male perspective. Fuck you Charles, you have no idea the pressures that women face to stay thin. Too thin can be unhealthy, women do not have to fit your unrealistic standard of beauty. Guess what? Having curves is what women are supposed to have, not stick thin bodies (except for those who are naturally that skinny).
19
Resisting giving you a swift kick in the balls next time I see you walking down the street Mudede is going to be harder than ever, you miserable piece of human garbage.
20
Yes most women could stand to lose a few pounds.
But Charles could stand to gain 20 or 30 IQ points, because he can't seem to grasp that most models could stand to gain about 20 or 30 pounds.
Seriously, models these days are disgustingly thin. Not healthily trim. Your point would almost ring true except you can't acknowledge that women should be inspired to hit that size 6 or 8, not a size fucking TWO.
But Charles could stand to gain 20 or 30 IQ points, because he can't seem to grasp that most models could stand to gain about 20 or 30 pounds.
Seriously, models these days are disgustingly thin. Not healthily trim. Your point would almost ring true except you can't acknowledge that women should be inspired to hit that size 6 or 8, not a size fucking TWO.
21
@6, this is a weak case. You can provide a sounder argument than that.
As a muscular guy myself I have to say that the average female model looks unhealthy, scientifically speaking.
As a muscular guy myself I have to say that the average female model looks unhealthy, scientifically speaking.
22
and it's also bullshit that the model for women is just plain "thin" (per Mudede's post) and not also muscular. i'd rather go for a Hope Solo body than a Victoria's Secret body any day.
23
Eating modest portions of nutritious food, not overeating and avoiding junk food, is a goal that will be beneficial to anyone who embraces it. That has nothing to do with the Photoshop-and-anorexia world of professional modeling.
If everyone started eating properly and exercising modestly, you would still see a range of body shapes and sizes. We would not all suddenly become tall and narrow-framed.
If everyone started eating properly and exercising modestly, you would still see a range of body shapes and sizes. We would not all suddenly become tall and narrow-framed.
24
In other words:
Charles, if you cut down on calories and joined a gym today, six months from now you would still be a squat, stocky African, albeit healthier and in better shape. You can't calorie count and workout your way into looking like Taye Diggs. Life ain't fair that way.
Charles, if you cut down on calories and joined a gym today, six months from now you would still be a squat, stocky African, albeit healthier and in better shape. You can't calorie count and workout your way into looking like Taye Diggs. Life ain't fair that way.
25
Uhh... BULLSHIT Charles. Model-skinny does not equal healthy. Healthy is getting enough calories and nutritients to have your brain and body function. Healthy is not starving ourselves or making ourselves throw up because of insane/airbrushed ideals. Health is not being underweight - as models are.
27
There is, of course, an obvious difference between getting specs to correct poor vision and getting a nose job. The first is necessary; the second is not.
Regardless, I agree with Crouch. I don't see it as wrong for someone to have surgery for purely aesthetic reasons. In Jackson's case, if he was happy with all the changes he made, good for him. I just think they ended up making him look freakish.
Regardless, I agree with Crouch. I don't see it as wrong for someone to have surgery for purely aesthetic reasons. In Jackson's case, if he was happy with all the changes he made, good for him. I just think they ended up making him look freakish.
28
"These thin women (and in my case, muscular men) remind us of the effort that's needed to improve or transform our unhealthy bodies. This is precisely why we call them models."
I think I see your problem here. We need to quit calling them models and go back to calling them "clothes dummies". Then it'll occur to us that we should be selecting clothes that flatter our respective body types and for the purpose of modeling how these clothes would look on us, the current crop of "clothes dummies" is unqualified and should be fired.
I think I see your problem here. We need to quit calling them models and go back to calling them "clothes dummies". Then it'll occur to us that we should be selecting clothes that flatter our respective body types and for the purpose of modeling how these clothes would look on us, the current crop of "clothes dummies" is unqualified and should be fired.
29
23/Hernandez: If everyone started eating properly and exercising modestly, you would still see a range of body shapes and sizes.
Yes, there would still be a range, but the average weight would likely decrease.
I realize it's not as simplistic as just diet and exercise but I'm sure those two things play a huge role. As a society, I'm sure we're far more sedentary than we were in the past and I'm equally sure our diet is much worse.
Yes, there would still be a range, but the average weight would likely decrease.
I realize it's not as simplistic as just diet and exercise but I'm sure those two things play a huge role. As a society, I'm sure we're far more sedentary than we were in the past and I'm equally sure our diet is much worse.
30
Aside from the important issues of anorexia, I see a business issue with super-thin modesl - as a short woman who usually wears an 8 and loves clothes, I do want to see a "normal woman" because I am looking at models to consider whether I want to buy what they are wearing. Seeing what an outfit looks like on a tall, super-thin woman, does not help me decide how it would look on my short, curvy body. It may show the clothes looking perfect for the designer, but does not help me to decide about buying the clothes. I am fine that they likely will not have a size 8P model anytime soon, but even a woman of average height who wears a modern 4 would help!
31
@6 Charles, you remind me of the Republicans who justify their prejudices by appealing to "economics" while at the same time demonstrating a profound ignorance it. "Science" does not say those models are healthy. It says they are profoundly underweight and psychologically sick.
If you think they are attractive, and thinking that they are "healthy" makes you feel better about that attraction, fine. We all keep comforting illusions sometimes. But keep your destructive rationalizations off your public pedestal, please?
If you think they are attractive, and thinking that they are "healthy" makes you feel better about that attraction, fine. We all keep comforting illusions sometimes. But keep your destructive rationalizations off your public pedestal, please?
32
Men are so incredibly shallow for caring about a woman's weight. I'm sure glad women aren't shallow like that, that women don't care about men's physical characteristics.
W4M ads:
. Bonus points if you're tall.
. looking to meet a nice man, Someone tall and handsome
. Want someone tall, at least 5'11" and the taller the better
. You MUST be very attractive, fit, tall,
. I am seeking a professional, age 45-55, tall
. I am looking for a tall professional man
. I'm looking for a tall & handsome single male
. tall and successful?
. Please be tall, in good shape
W4M ads:
. Bonus points if you're tall.
. looking to meet a nice man, Someone tall and handsome
. Want someone tall, at least 5'11" and the taller the better
. You MUST be very attractive, fit, tall,
. I am seeking a professional, age 45-55, tall
. I am looking for a tall professional man
. I'm looking for a tall & handsome single male
. tall and successful?
. Please be tall, in good shape
33
@14, did i say i was thin? I certainly to do not want to see a model who looks like me. i agree. i need to shave 30 pounds. this only proves that you totally missed my point. thinness, believe me, is not a crisis in our society.
34
Plus-size models used to be size 12-14, until "plus size" became popular in fashion. That necessitated reducing "plus size" to size 8.
Studies have shown that even women who are on the larger side of plus size won't buy clothes that are modeled on women larger than size 12-14. I'll state it more clearly: fat women (size 22, minimum) don't want to see clothes modeled on women who look like them; they only want to see clothes modeled on women who are much skinnier than they are.
Consumers are the main culprit here.
Studies have shown that even women who are on the larger side of plus size won't buy clothes that are modeled on women larger than size 12-14. I'll state it more clearly: fat women (size 22, minimum) don't want to see clothes modeled on women who look like them; they only want to see clothes modeled on women who are much skinnier than they are.
Consumers are the main culprit here.
35
Comparing a woman being happy seeing some one with her own figure celebrated as beautiful to a person happy to see some one with their own IQ celebrated as presidential is illogical on any number of levels.
Also, celebrating a size 12 woman as beautiful isn't exactly encouraging obesity. Size 12 is not obese! The real problem facing our society isn't about size so much as it is an unhealthy relationship with food. Being pressured into wanting an unhealthy and unattainable body type only makes women (and men) continue to struggle with food. This can mean eating too little or eating too much or eating for the wrong reasons. I don't want a model to look "just like me" I want a model to look like a real person and not a plastic doll that got stretched on a medeval torture device. Real people have fat on their bodies and that isn't unhealthy. While you're of course entitled to your opinion I hope that Lindy West fires back with a response because this is really, really offensive.
Also, celebrating a size 12 woman as beautiful isn't exactly encouraging obesity. Size 12 is not obese! The real problem facing our society isn't about size so much as it is an unhealthy relationship with food. Being pressured into wanting an unhealthy and unattainable body type only makes women (and men) continue to struggle with food. This can mean eating too little or eating too much or eating for the wrong reasons. I don't want a model to look "just like me" I want a model to look like a real person and not a plastic doll that got stretched on a medeval torture device. Real people have fat on their bodies and that isn't unhealthy. While you're of course entitled to your opinion I hope that Lindy West fires back with a response because this is really, really offensive.
36
I love you and I hate you Charles, You are perfect. Today I love you. I dont understand why the fashion world needs to change for anyone.
37
@29 No, I agree with you. But Charles' point is that he doesn't want to see models that look like him because he's overweight. I counter that even if he lost that 30 pounds, models would still never look like him. Male models have long arms, long torsos, broad shoulders and angular jawlines. No matter how much weight you lose, unless you were born with those particular features, you will never look like a model. Basing our ideals of body transformation on one narrow set of physical characteristics (when we have no control over the physical features we're born with) is pretty dumb.
38
Thanks Hernandez. Perhaps I missed it, but I didn't see anywhere where Charles claimed that if he lost weight, he'd look like a model (or that models would look like him.)
39
@38 I felt like that was an implication of his second point, although I could be reading too much into it (although his comment @33 makes me think I'm not).
40
For those arguing that a little fatter is a little healthier, scientific research may prove the opposite to be true. In fact, there is a calorie restriction health movement, albeit controversial, which promotes the idea that restriction of glucose metabolism extends life. With high amounts of food energy available, mitochondria don't operate very efficiently and generate free radicals. These free radicals damage the electron transport chain (the metabolic mechanism), which generates even more free radicals in a positive feedback loop that accelerates cellular damage. Eating less might slow this process, though the jury is still out as to the reproducible benefits of CR on large organisms like humans.
W/r/t the social stigma of obesity, I don't like the idea of anorexic teens or skeletal models photoshopped in the extreme any more than the next person, but as a resident this country, where the average caloric intake is nearly double that of residents in Sub-Saharan Africa, I find it unspeakably indulgent to argue about the fragile self-esteem of our society's most glutinous when a large percentage of the world is starving.
W/r/t the social stigma of obesity, I don't like the idea of anorexic teens or skeletal models photoshopped in the extreme any more than the next person, but as a resident this country, where the average caloric intake is nearly double that of residents in Sub-Saharan Africa, I find it unspeakably indulgent to argue about the fragile self-esteem of our society's most glutinous when a large percentage of the world is starving.
41
@32 -- I would argue that that is STILL about female body image. Women are socialized to feel insecure if they're taller than their partner; most of those ads are probably by women who are close to six feet, or at least taller than average.
I'm 5'0" and very happily married to a sexy man who's 5'6".
I'm 5'0" and very happily married to a sexy man who's 5'6".
42
You mean this comment: These thin women (and in my case, muscular men) remind us of the effort that's needed to improve or transform our unhealthy bodies.?
I don't see "improve or transform our unhealthy bodies" as saying (or implying) that we need to have the long arms, long torsos, broad shoulders and angular jawlines of models. I just see it as saying that we need to become more fit.
I don't see "improve or transform our unhealthy bodies" as saying (or implying) that we need to have the long arms, long torsos, broad shoulders and angular jawlines of models. I just see it as saying that we need to become more fit.
43
I normally find Charles pretty annoying and self-involved but this is ridiculous.
Agree with @31. Female models are the last place one should look to see an image of women at a scientifically healthy weight, and whether or not thinness is a "crisis" is completely irrelevant to those who have lost their lives or caused irreparable damage to their bodies because of "thinness".
The idea that women should take models as an example of "the effort that's needed to improve or transform our unhealthy bodies" is absurd. Models set an unrealistic (and unhealthy!) ideal that being underweight is what is required to be considered beautiful.
And anyway, who are you to criticize others for the body types they find beautiful, healthy or not?
You're an asshole.
Agree with @31. Female models are the last place one should look to see an image of women at a scientifically healthy weight, and whether or not thinness is a "crisis" is completely irrelevant to those who have lost their lives or caused irreparable damage to their bodies because of "thinness".
The idea that women should take models as an example of "the effort that's needed to improve or transform our unhealthy bodies" is absurd. Models set an unrealistic (and unhealthy!) ideal that being underweight is what is required to be considered beautiful.
And anyway, who are you to criticize others for the body types they find beautiful, healthy or not?
You're an asshole.
44
Here here @35! Lindy where are you?
"These thin women remind us of the effort that's needed to improve or transform our unhealthy bodies"? Absolutely NOT. A woman can be a size 12 and be HEALTHY and HAPPY and not need or want to change a damn thing about herself. But God-forbid, she doesn't look like the rail-thin women in the magazines. Get real Mudede-They're called models because they model clothes, not because they represent some goal we all need to aspire to. Why would any woman want to "model" herself around being a size 2 (Some women's bodies are not meant to be a size 2.), having low self-esteem, and starving herself? "The most human want is the want to be what we are not"? Pfhhh. FYI-the most human want is the want to be happy (and you don't have to be unhappy to want that).
"These thin women remind us of the effort that's needed to improve or transform our unhealthy bodies"? Absolutely NOT. A woman can be a size 12 and be HEALTHY and HAPPY and not need or want to change a damn thing about herself. But God-forbid, she doesn't look like the rail-thin women in the magazines. Get real Mudede-They're called models because they model clothes, not because they represent some goal we all need to aspire to. Why would any woman want to "model" herself around being a size 2 (Some women's bodies are not meant to be a size 2.), having low self-esteem, and starving herself? "The most human want is the want to be what we are not"? Pfhhh. FYI-the most human want is the want to be happy (and you don't have to be unhappy to want that).
45
@40,
You only get the supposed health benefits of restricting calories if you restrict your intake to 1200 calories per day (and shrink down to a skeletal body). Could you live like that? Would you want to live like that? For normal people, who like to eat and aren't willing to starve themselves for a longer life, being slightly overweight is healthier than the alternative.
There's also a lot of evidence that yo-yo dieting is extremely harmful to one's health, possibly more so than consistent overeating. The vast majority of people do not succeed at losing weight; 97 percent of people who lose weight regain it, and most of them gain more than they had before. That's the very definition of yo-yo dieting, and they therefore would've been better off not even trying to lose weight in the first place.
Extreme dieting is fueled by our culture that says you can only be a worthwhile person if you're rail thin. Do you see a connection here?
And I find it unspeakably indulgent for you to assume you know what Africans think about this. Africans typically esteem people who are overweight.
What's indulgent is the American worship of sickly-thin people.
You only get the supposed health benefits of restricting calories if you restrict your intake to 1200 calories per day (and shrink down to a skeletal body). Could you live like that? Would you want to live like that? For normal people, who like to eat and aren't willing to starve themselves for a longer life, being slightly overweight is healthier than the alternative.
There's also a lot of evidence that yo-yo dieting is extremely harmful to one's health, possibly more so than consistent overeating. The vast majority of people do not succeed at losing weight; 97 percent of people who lose weight regain it, and most of them gain more than they had before. That's the very definition of yo-yo dieting, and they therefore would've been better off not even trying to lose weight in the first place.
Extreme dieting is fueled by our culture that says you can only be a worthwhile person if you're rail thin. Do you see a connection here?
And I find it unspeakably indulgent for you to assume you know what Africans think about this. Africans typically esteem people who are overweight.
What's indulgent is the American worship of sickly-thin people.
46
45/keshmeshi, I'm curious what the basis is for your assertions that our culture says "you can only be a worthwhile person if you're rail thin" and that we "worship sickly-thin" people in the U.S.?
47
42 I think the other comment is talking about comment about how models are what we should aspire to be, ignoring that even if we all woke up one day at our ideal weight the majority of us still would not look like models.
And that many models have traits that can't be gained with weight loss, so telling people to aspire to be like them is like telling Sisyphus that he just needs to try harder with that boulder.
And that many models have traits that can't be gained with weight loss, so telling people to aspire to be like them is like telling Sisyphus that he just needs to try harder with that boulder.
48
You have a very thin understanding of the psychology of eating disorders as it relates to the portrayal of an "ideal" that is not, scientifically speaking, ideal. That you find this model to be substandard (she's gorgeous) betrays your own fetishized view of skinny women. (BTW, she's thinner than Marilyn Monroe).
And your trolly comments about MJ's nose are similarly warped by what appears to be another fetish of yours: being wrong. I knew a woman whose daughter burned herself with bleach to try to be "less African", as you say. Even if it weren't unhealthy, your understanding ends with the assertion that the "unnatural" is okay, without regard to the deeper cultural implications of the homogenous standards for beauty that bombard us. It's in the interest of the capitalist mechanism to make us want to be something other than we are, and to make it expensive to get there (yes, even getting thinner).
I'll agree with you about the meaninglessness of the concept of the "natural" and the error in seeing the natural as superior. My pants aren't natural. Neither is my time at the gym, nor my resistance to a fella's sexual advances. And whenever someone bases a moral argument on their perception of something or other being "unnatural", they've lost me. I don't even have an issue with vanity plastic surgery, other than how it may or may not reflect a cultural pathology or suggest a personality problem (may or may not).
And your trolly comments about MJ's nose are similarly warped by what appears to be another fetish of yours: being wrong. I knew a woman whose daughter burned herself with bleach to try to be "less African", as you say. Even if it weren't unhealthy, your understanding ends with the assertion that the "unnatural" is okay, without regard to the deeper cultural implications of the homogenous standards for beauty that bombard us. It's in the interest of the capitalist mechanism to make us want to be something other than we are, and to make it expensive to get there (yes, even getting thinner).
I'll agree with you about the meaninglessness of the concept of the "natural" and the error in seeing the natural as superior. My pants aren't natural. Neither is my time at the gym, nor my resistance to a fella's sexual advances. And whenever someone bases a moral argument on their perception of something or other being "unnatural", they've lost me. I don't even have an issue with vanity plastic surgery, other than how it may or may not reflect a cultural pathology or suggest a personality problem (may or may not).
50
i can see ive had no impact on the misogyny/body snarking. ps white girls i can understand but skinny white girls? really?
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