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News & ArtsTuesday, December 6, 2011
Health / Death / 2012 If This Doesn't Become Rick Santorum's HPV Vaccine Gaffe...
Posted by Dan Savage on Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 1:12 PM
...then Michele Bachmann has a point about being treated unfairly by the media. Santorum was challenged by a student at a conservative Christian college today:
It started with a freshman who said he's been studying certain books of the Bible recently, which prompted him to ask about healthcare. "God is very angry toward societies that don't care for the poor," student Ryan Walters began. "If not for our social programs, how can we as a society care for our poor? ... With all due respect Sen. Santorum, I don't think God appreciates the fact that we have 50-100 thousand uninsured Americans dying due to a lack of healthcare every year."
"Dying?" Santorum shot back, seeming genuinely taken aback.
"I believe that is a statistic," Walters said.
"So 50 to 100 thousand Americans are dying due to lack of healthcare?"
"And preventable diseases, yes sir."
"Healthcare and preventable diseases? Where did you get that number?"
The student said he believed it was from "statistical evidence."
Santorum said people "don't get statistical evidence from thin air" and said, "I reject that number completely, that people die in America because of lack of health insurance."
That stat wasn't pulled out of thin air:
Research released this week in the American Journal of Public Health estimates that 45,000 deaths per year in the United States are associated with the lack of health insurance. If a person is uninsured, "it means you're at mortal risk," said one of the authors, Dr. David Himmelstein, an associate professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School. The researchers examined government health surveys from more than 9,000 people aged 17 to 64, taken from 1986-1994, and then followed up through 2000. They determined that the uninsured have a 40 percent higher risk of death than those with private health insurance as a result of being unable to obtain necessary medical care. The researchers then extrapolated the results to census data from 2005 and calculated there were 44,789 deaths associated with lack of health insurance.
Hopefully there's a journalist out there who's half as brave as this student—a kid at a conservative Christian college (Santorum initial reaction to this student's line of questioning: "You go to Dordt College and ask me that question?")—who'll ask Santorum some follow up questions about his factually untrue statement. Santorum is entitled to his own opinions, as the saying goes, but not his own facts. Thousands of Americans are dying every year for lack of access to health care and Rick Santorum wants to make sure Americans keep dying for lack of health insurance. Santorum should be forced to make a case for our cruel and un-Christian health care system.
2
Bachmann was pretty high in the polls when the HPV thing happened. Santorum is still nowhere in the polls, so I don't think this will be as big a deal as the HPV flap. Which is a shame, because that health care statistic is something more people should hear.
4
This should be front-page news across the country. Not just Santorum's continuing idiocy, but the facts about being medically uninsured in America.
Every one of the Republican 'candidates' should be made to publicly address this horrific fact.
Every one of the Republican 'candidates' should be made to publicly address this horrific fact.
6
You know, that brings up questions I have about all these students asking these really great questions from the candidates: why aren’t the media asking these questions? Why does it take a student to point out the hypocrisy of "Conservative Christian Politics"? Isn’t this what journalists and reporters are paid to do?
7
Santorum still doesn't really grasp that the country is bigger than a small town. I'm sure he doesn't believe that that many people die from ANY cause every year.
8
@Allyn #6 - The answer is simple: the media is afraid of alienating any possible candidate. If they do so, they -- or worse, their employer -- will likely find themselves ostracized and disinvited to junkets, tours, events, pressers and other fodder for the 24/7 news cycle. Even if an intrepid reporter for the mass media asked such a question, the bosses would refuse to run it, and probably fire the reporter as well.
9
Almost 2.5 million Americans die every year. So those 45,000 uninsured decedents are only about 1.8% of the total. If you subtract out those aged 65+ (just about all of whom have access to Medicare and are therefore insured), you lose nearly 3/4 of the deaths. But even using only ages 0-64, the uninsured constitute only about 6.6% of the total.
Then again, the estimated number of uninsured deaths is from 2005. The number of uninsured Americans has risen quite a lot lately. So I'd say that both the number and the proportion of deaths in the uninsured are probably a good bit higher now.
Then again, the estimated number of uninsured deaths is from 2005. The number of uninsured Americans has risen quite a lot lately. So I'd say that both the number and the proportion of deaths in the uninsured are probably a good bit higher now.
11
This is exactly the question I want to ask every Christian Republican. God hates gays but not your complete disregard for the poor? WTF?
12
@7 In Santorum's world, people don't "die". They are either "joining God in heaven" or "paying the wages of sin".
@8 Almost there. The media won't piss off candidates because candidates give the media money in the form of campaign ads. It is huge business for the TV folks, which is why they will only give lip service to things like campaign finance reform. Candidates and media are pretty much co-workers.
@8 Almost there. The media won't piss off candidates because candidates give the media money in the form of campaign ads. It is huge business for the TV folks, which is why they will only give lip service to things like campaign finance reform. Candidates and media are pretty much co-workers.
14
@8,12
So our hope is in the internet, in people passing these nuggets around.
So does that mean we all owe Al Gore a big smooch?
So our hope is in the internet, in people passing these nuggets around.
So does that mean we all owe Al Gore a big smooch?
15
Is the issue Santorum's response or the student's question with lack of documentation at hand to support the statement? Santorum is yesterdays news. And #8 made the point clearly, ask the harding hitting questions and you are Black listed.
16
@11 That's what I bring up whenever I'm talking to politically-minded Christians.
[They believe] God gave us his word but we misunderstood, so He sent His son with His Big Message to straighten us all out. So, what’s God’s message? (other than to avoid figs?) Love one another as yourself (equal rights). If you’re rich, give what you have to the poor (socialism). If someone is sick, help them to get well (Jesus was a strong supporter of free health care). Don’t kill, even when the person has done very bad things (like murder, or having sex (and wouldn’t cementing reproductive rights fall under this one?)). Not once, not a single time, does he mention homosexuality. So if Jesus was God’s chance to get his One and True message out, either Jesus failed and wasn’t a very good deity or current-day Christians are getting it wrong.
[They believe] God gave us his word but we misunderstood, so He sent His son with His Big Message to straighten us all out. So, what’s God’s message? (other than to avoid figs?) Love one another as yourself (equal rights). If you’re rich, give what you have to the poor (socialism). If someone is sick, help them to get well (Jesus was a strong supporter of free health care). Don’t kill, even when the person has done very bad things (like murder, or having sex (and wouldn’t cementing reproductive rights fall under this one?)). Not once, not a single time, does he mention homosexuality. So if Jesus was God’s chance to get his One and True message out, either Jesus failed and wasn’t a very good deity or current-day Christians are getting it wrong.
17
Santorum doesn't know what science is. He doesn't belive in facts. He believes the bible is literally true and that science (and anything related to science) is anti-religion. Therefore facts don't matter. Statistics lie. Only the bible is true.
18
What we do is shoot every uninsured American. That way, gunshot deaths skyrocket, but deaths by preventable disease fall to nearly zero, and how dare you suggest that honest Americans not have guns and shoot at poor people indiscriminately? What are you, some kind of socialist?
19
@9 I think the statistic is trying to express avoidable mortality that is attributable to being uninsured. So it isn't just a raw expression of deaths among the uninsured (which would be a larger number), but of deaths that were in some large part attributable to being uninsured. I think.
One of the tricky aspects of these types of statistics is that some significant percentage of poor people become insured after getting sick, but before dying. I think of my niece who died of brain tumors--prior to her illness she had no insurance, but after she was diagnosed she quickly went on her state's version of the Medicaid program. She was low-income prior to her illness, but not so desperately poor as to qualify for Medicaid, but that changed rapidly when bills associated with her cancer treatment started rolling in. So technically she had health insurance through Medicaid when she died, but might not her death be in part attributable to being uninsured prior to her diagnosis?
On the other hand, she had an aggressive tumor that kills most people, insured and uninsured, within a year or so of diagnosis. So she probably would have died in any case. But her situation reflects in part how difficult it can be to get accurate estimates in this area.
One of the tricky aspects of these types of statistics is that some significant percentage of poor people become insured after getting sick, but before dying. I think of my niece who died of brain tumors--prior to her illness she had no insurance, but after she was diagnosed she quickly went on her state's version of the Medicaid program. She was low-income prior to her illness, but not so desperately poor as to qualify for Medicaid, but that changed rapidly when bills associated with her cancer treatment started rolling in. So technically she had health insurance through Medicaid when she died, but might not her death be in part attributable to being uninsured prior to her diagnosis?
On the other hand, she had an aggressive tumor that kills most people, insured and uninsured, within a year or so of diagnosis. So she probably would have died in any case. But her situation reflects in part how difficult it can be to get accurate estimates in this area.
20
And that's the thing...Jesus wanted us to help and love each other - to do everything humanly possible to ease the suffering of others. Never judge. Never condemn. Hard to do, but that is what's paramount in his teachings. That's what we are supposed to take away from his message. Nothing more.
If young Christians start carrying that banner, I'm going to have to reset my whole interpretation of what Christianity is in these modern times. That is going to be hard for me to do because there are others who have used his message as acid, as weaponry.
If young Christians start carrying that banner, I'm going to have to reset my whole interpretation of what Christianity is in these modern times. That is going to be hard for me to do because there are others who have used his message as acid, as weaponry.
21
The number shouldn't matter. It shouldn't matter if there are 50,000, or 5,000, or 500 who die because of the lack of proper health care. ESPECIALLY if the person you are asking is actually a Christian as they claim to be.
Genesis 18:26 - "The LORD said, “If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake.”
Notice that "the LORD" did not say "but they better be able to afford their own primary care, because I'm for the free market, baby!" It is clear that Christian doctrine* would argue that if an action (or, in the case above, inaction) will spare the lives of even a small few, that action should be taken. Here, let's rewrite Genesis a bit:
"The LORD said, “If I find fifty people who need proper health care in the city of Sodom, I will ensure health care for all for their sake.”
*Disclosure - I'm a recovering Catholic.
Genesis 18:26 - "The LORD said, “If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake.”
Notice that "the LORD" did not say "but they better be able to afford their own primary care, because I'm for the free market, baby!" It is clear that Christian doctrine* would argue that if an action (or, in the case above, inaction) will spare the lives of even a small few, that action should be taken. Here, let's rewrite Genesis a bit:
"The LORD said, “If I find fifty people who need proper health care in the city of Sodom, I will ensure health care for all for their sake.”
*Disclosure - I'm a recovering Catholic.
22
Call me a pessimist, but I don't think this will even make a blip. It's been Republican policy to just flat-out deny facts for decades. "I reject that number completely, that people die in America because of lack of health insurance," is basically just quoting the party line. He couldn't have made a safer response.
I mean, we're talking about a field of candidates who confidently deny evolution. Denial does not harm Republicans (politically).
I mean, we're talking about a field of candidates who confidently deny evolution. Denial does not harm Republicans (politically).
24
Mark Chu-Carroll had an excellent post about this over at Good Math/Bad Math back in November: Facts vs. Beliefs.
The far more insidious thing is no Democrat would have dared question the premise if some student had asked a question build around a flagrantly wrong talking point.
When Babylon 5 originally aired, I always hated the ISN episodes because I thought they were such a caricature of biased journalism they crossed over into just silly. Twenty years on, MJS was apparently more far-sighted than I gave him credit for, and the ISN episodes were apparently used as development plans far all the cable and network outlets.
The far more insidious thing is no Democrat would have dared question the premise if some student had asked a question build around a flagrantly wrong talking point.
When Babylon 5 originally aired, I always hated the ISN episodes because I thought they were such a caricature of biased journalism they crossed over into just silly. Twenty years on, MJS was apparently more far-sighted than I gave him credit for, and the ISN episodes were apparently used as development plans far all the cable and network outlets.
25
And the follow up question:
So, is God cool with us if we let 20,000 people die every year because they don't have health insurance? 10,000? How many people does Jesus think are expendable?
So, is God cool with us if we let 20,000 people die every year because they don't have health insurance? 10,000? How many people does Jesus think are expendable?
26
This just goes to show: you never know where your next hero will come from.
If you had told me a month ago a kid studying at a conservative Christian school was going to stand up and ask a Republican presidential candidate that question, I would have offered to eat my hat if it happened.
Good on you, young man.
If you had told me a month ago a kid studying at a conservative Christian school was going to stand up and ask a Republican presidential candidate that question, I would have offered to eat my hat if it happened.
Good on you, young man.
27
I watched a patient of mine die just a couple of weeks ago. His cause of death? Lack of insurance, essentially. Six dollars' worth of omeprazole and care from a competent family doctor (even a nurse practitioner) a couple of times per year would have stopped the acid from eating a hole in his stomach, which eroded into an artery and bled profusely.
Furthermore, his ability to survive the bleed was hindered by the fact that he had septicemia due to an abscessed tooth that had been neglected due to lack of dental insurance.
Before he died, he spent three days in the ICU and had several emergency procedures plus loads of very expensive intravenous medications, at a cost of tens of thousands, which his family has no hope of paying and which could have been prevented with basic primary care at a pittance and cheap generic drugs.
This man was young, employed, married and father to a kindergartener.
This is our system.
Furthermore, his ability to survive the bleed was hindered by the fact that he had septicemia due to an abscessed tooth that had been neglected due to lack of dental insurance.
Before he died, he spent three days in the ICU and had several emergency procedures plus loads of very expensive intravenous medications, at a cost of tens of thousands, which his family has no hope of paying and which could have been prevented with basic primary care at a pittance and cheap generic drugs.
This man was young, employed, married and father to a kindergartener.
This is our system.
28
"Hopefully there's a journalist out there who's half as brave as this student..."
Most likely not. Also, pretty much what #22 said.
Most likely not. Also, pretty much what #22 said.
30
45,000?
wow.
Big Shit.
Each year 380,000 fat fucks die of obesity
and
720,000 die from smoking.
45,000? Big. Fucking. Shit......
wow.
Big Shit.
Each year 380,000 fat fucks die of obesity
and
720,000 die from smoking.
45,000? Big. Fucking. Shit......
31
27
Glad to hear you helped your friend with his $6 meds.
If you didn't give a shit why should we?
Glad to hear you helped your friend with his $6 meds.
If you didn't give a shit why should we?
33
@29 - Really? He bargained with God? You're making it really hard for me not to make racist jokes about Jews here, venomlash.
"Ten for that you must be mad!"
"Ten for that you must be mad!"
34
nice try, kid. but if you're going to cite stats to a douchebag politician, you better be able to rattle off the source as part of the question. and know the numbers backward and forward.
although i wouldn't be surprised if santorum never heard those numbers in his talking-point bubble. reality has a well-known liberal bias.
although i wouldn't be surprised if santorum never heard those numbers in his talking-point bubble. reality has a well-known liberal bias.
36
Something like 3000 people died on 9-11. 3000 people, Republicans flip, willing to spend any amount of money on anything that might make us safer, from groping toddlers to going to war. Trillions of dollars that the republican would declare were necessary to make our people safe.
44,789 people died in a year from lack of health insurance, and the Republicans shrug.
What a country we live in.
44,789 people died in a year from lack of health insurance, and the Republicans shrug.
What a country we live in.
37
@34 - It wouldn't matter. Even if the kid could cite a source, Santorum would have questioned the veracity of the source rather than addressing the heart of the question.
38
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39
He's in good company, Republicanly speaking. Ronald Reagan, when told that the Congressional Budget Office had stats showing a widening gap between the rich and the poor, simply said, "Oh, I don't think that's true."
And the bastard got away with it.
And the bastard got away with it.
40
"The candidate turned to the audience and immediately asked who they think should be responsible for helping the poor. After he got the answer he was looking for –that it's up to each individual " How very Biblical. I love how those students asked the honest questions that our journalists don't have the balls to do, and Rick couldn't give ONE STRAIGHT ANSWER about why he believed the things he did. That's the problem with never challenging your worldviews. As with Michelle, I'm shocked that he's even still running.
41
I find it very hard to believe that a college student couldn't cite his sources. But I find it harder to believe that Santorum is considered even remotely viable as a candidate.
42
Whatever. This kid was a college student at a politically moderate, religiously arch-conservative college in my home town. I am so proud of both these kids right now . And, even better, Santorum thought he was stopping somewhere he'd have total support, and these kids were too smart and empathetic to let that happen.
43
1) 45k < 50 to 100k
2) many christians believe it is not the role of the government to address poverty (it must be the church and by choice)
3) many christians believe people need to work to eat and view socialism as too coddling and ultimately antiproductive
I'm glad though that many other christians do feel it is important to make sure the system addresses the needs of the poor.
2) many christians believe it is not the role of the government to address poverty (it must be the church and by choice)
3) many christians believe people need to work to eat and view socialism as too coddling and ultimately antiproductive
I'm glad though that many other christians do feel it is important to make sure the system addresses the needs of the poor.
44
Hopefully there's a journalist out there who's half as brave as this student..." Uh there is- the one who reported on this exchange. By the way you all might want to point out this story to other media and see what happens- that's another good story.
What I found appalling was Santorum's arrogance at being questioned. He simply dismissed the facts because he didn't like them? This guy is seriously delusional if he thinks he's presidential material.
What I found appalling was Santorum's arrogance at being questioned. He simply dismissed the facts because he didn't like them? This guy is seriously delusional if he thinks he's presidential material.
45
and journalists can't really ask questions quite like that, as the question seems too biased. there is, however, an unbiased way to ask the question, which should be asked, that the media is failing to ask.
47
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48
Now that's what a Christian's supposed to be, caring about the poor. Although I have to wonder how many exact statistics we should expect any person to know. Though this has become one of Santorum's issues and I suppose it's reasonable for him to be informed about it...
49
@47: No thanks. I'd rather not scream in agony while urinating, and I am perfectly fine with not having whale syphilis.
50
@9, if they have Medicare then they're not uninsured and therefore they don't count in the 45K dead people referred to in the study. Out of curiosity, if 1.8% of our death's being due to lack of insurance isn't enough to justify doing something about it then what exactly is? Would 4% be enough? 50%? At what point do we do something?
51
Dan, you know I love you to bits, but... you do realize you're the ONLY person still covering things Rick Santorum says anymore, don't you?
52
@37(Kevin), who wrote:
True. But there's a good comeback. The student could simply hand Santorum (or any other politician with similar ideas) a printed version of the source (perhaps also the study itself, or a link to it), and say "If you want to question the veracity of a source, you have to examine it and say why; you have to argue for it. If you don't, you damage your own credibility. You look like those people who deny that there was a moon landing, or those who still think smoking is unrelated to lung cancer."
Even if the kid could cite a source, Santorum would have questioned the veracity of the source rather than addressing the heart of the question.
True. But there's a good comeback. The student could simply hand Santorum (or any other politician with similar ideas) a printed version of the source (perhaps also the study itself, or a link to it), and say "If you want to question the veracity of a source, you have to examine it and say why; you have to argue for it. If you don't, you damage your own credibility. You look like those people who deny that there was a moon landing, or those who still think smoking is unrelated to lung cancer."
53
Good grief people. The six dollar Omeprazole story is appalling. I don't understand why you're not all on the streets protesting this one example, let alone 45,000 avoidable deaths. I know I say this from a position of smugness because I'm in the UK, but what is with people in the US? Why won't you fight for the basic things that every government should be providing its citizens with?
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