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News & ArtsFriday, December 2, 2011
Science Did Neanderthals Interbreed With Homo Sapiens?
Posted by Dan Savage on Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 9:09 AM
There's a fascinating discussion about that topic in the comments thread of my post about, er, Neil Patrick Harris using the word "tranny" on television.
7
@6: Caveman fetish perhaps?
I recall a previous SL discussion in which a bunch of ladies admitting to being turned on by the caveman in the GEICO commercials.
I recall a previous SL discussion in which a bunch of ladies admitting to being turned on by the caveman in the GEICO commercials.
8
Word AIDS Day passes without a single mention. A school in Philadelphia bans an HIV+ 13 year-old; not a word.. But this deserves its own post.
9
From The New Yorker's Annals of Evolution ;)
Sleeping with the Enemy:
What happened between the Neanderthals and us?
by Elizabeth Kolbert
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/…
Sleeping with the Enemy:
What happened between the Neanderthals and us?
by Elizabeth Kolbert
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/…
14
@8: So, as long as there's suffering in the world, there's no room for lighthearted content on SLOG? Alrightee then.
Might I suggest you change your handle from "Dingo" to "Buzz Kill".
Might I suggest you change your handle from "Dingo" to "Buzz Kill".
16
@8: http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Searc…
You're right, The Stranger doesn't do NEARLY enough for AIDS awareness, and it's tragic that they didn't do anything on the one day that everyone else was engaging in AIDS-awareness-raising.
@10: Yeah, as far as we can tell, humans will fuck pretty much anything that's fuckable.
You're right, The Stranger doesn't do NEARLY enough for AIDS awareness, and it's tragic that they didn't do anything on the one day that everyone else was engaging in AIDS-awareness-raising.
@10: Yeah, as far as we can tell, humans will fuck pretty much anything that's fuckable.
19
Because of Dan, we know humans will fuck about anything, alive or dead. Who could be surprised at the thought of Human/neanderthal pegging? Not to mention all the other possibilities. Can you feature the queer eye for the Neanderthal?
20
@8, the Milton Hershey School is in Hershey, PA, about 90 miles from Philadelphia. And that is not the worst thing they've done in recent years, either. It's pretty bad, especially since the idea of the school (chocolate fortune providing education for impoverished kids) is so good.
http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.s…
http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.s…
21
@14 did I write "as long as there's suffering in the world, there's no room for lighthearted content on SLOG?" I'm positive that I didn't so I can't imagine why you'd imply I made that suggestion.
And #16: I never said anything about The Stranger. I was talking about DAN, you know, the gay man who makes his living blogging, writing and podcasting about issues of sex and sexuality? You know, the one who lives in America, where gay men are among the most affected by HIV/AIDS? The one who regularly writes about discrimination in schools? It's rather remarkable and strange when someone like that fails to even mention World AIDS Day in his blog.
And #16: I never said anything about The Stranger. I was talking about DAN, you know, the gay man who makes his living blogging, writing and podcasting about issues of sex and sexuality? You know, the one who lives in America, where gay men are among the most affected by HIV/AIDS? The one who regularly writes about discrimination in schools? It's rather remarkable and strange when someone like that fails to even mention World AIDS Day in his blog.
22
Wasn't the whole plot of the Clan of the Cave Bear series based on homo sapiens fucking Neanderthals?
I remember there was a point made about how mean it was to call the Neanderthals "flatheads", but then the Neanderthal guy is basically just a rapist, and all the hot sex scenes are between the Cro-Mags in the second book.
I remember there was a point made about how mean it was to call the Neanderthals "flatheads", but then the Neanderthal guy is basically just a rapist, and all the hot sex scenes are between the Cro-Mags in the second book.
23
Since Dan has made all of us aware of the myriad ways that two individuals can fuck, whose to say if the sapians and neanderthals were pegging? I am guessing that the same sentient beings that enjoy each other, children, horses, cows and chickens, probably shared juices repeatedly. There is no reason to believe that stuck to their own genome.
24
So Neanderthals liked to cross-dress occasionally. That doesn't make them trannies. God, you people.
25
@22, yes, but, you know, that's fiction.
Of course, half of what I beleive about pre-historic humanoids is from that series...
Of course, half of what I beleive about pre-historic humanoids is from that series...
27
@25, yeah, my point is that the author was being hypocritical by sending that double message about the Neanderthals. But I do remember it got pretty hot! Maybe it's time to read the rest of the series, since the issue is so topical and all...
28
@16: Not pumpkins. No human being would ever fuck a pumpkin.
@21: I'm stating the conclusion that follows from your sanctimonious bitching. On a side note, you haven't ever fucked a pumpkin, have you?
@21: I'm stating the conclusion that follows from your sanctimonious bitching. On a side note, you haven't ever fucked a pumpkin, have you?
29
@28: when you don't the meaning of the word "sanctimonious" any "conclusions" you draw are meaningless.
30
@28
1% to 4% of modern human genes are ornamental gourd. They retain their levels through the seasonal pie campaign. Neanderthal levels are currently dropping because of the spelling confusion, concurrent memes are difficult to program in dna and juggalos don't herd easy.
1% to 4% of modern human genes are ornamental gourd. They retain their levels through the seasonal pie campaign. Neanderthal levels are currently dropping because of the spelling confusion, concurrent memes are difficult to program in dna and juggalos don't herd easy.
31
Top dictionary result for "Sanctimonious": making a show of being morally superior.
You know, like posting a blog comment about how you care more about AIDS than Dan does.
You know, like posting a blog comment about how you care more about AIDS than Dan does.
32
@16 -- yeah, it's absolutely a given. What I think is fascinating is that we were apparently still interbreedable, eg viable offspring.
35
33: Maybe you should learn to read:
Sounds to me like you're calling Dan out for posting a bit of silly fluff and not caring about AIDS.
Seandr et al are right; you're acting quite sanctimonious. And when you get called on it, you try to deflect it by calling the people pointing it out stupid. (E.g. stating that they don't know the meaning of the word sanctimonious or know how to read.) Nice way to refute arguments.
Word AIDS Day passes without a single mention. A school in Philadelphia bans an HIV+ 13 year-old; not a word.. But this deserves its own post.
Sounds to me like you're calling Dan out for posting a bit of silly fluff and not caring about AIDS.
Seandr et al are right; you're acting quite sanctimonious. And when you get called on it, you try to deflect it by calling the people pointing it out stupid. (E.g. stating that they don't know the meaning of the word sanctimonious or know how to read.) Nice way to refute arguments.
36
@28: You don't know the power of the dark side of the Intertubes. http://www.sextutor.com/pumpkin/
37
That genetic research was suggsetive that non-African Homo Sapiens have a 1-4% Neandertal DNA.
So we're all either one N-word or another.
So we're all either one N-word or another.
38
If humans will fuck sheep they will sure as hell fuck Neanderthals (or is the sheep thing an urban legend?). That's why I always found it so strange that we never had an genetic evidence until recently.
39
@30 "1% to 4% of modern human genes are ornamental gourd."
Spit take, seriously. You win the thread, sir or madame.
Spit take, seriously. You win the thread, sir or madame.
40
Yes, 35: I expressed surprise and disappointment about the fact that Dan didn't bother posting anything about World AIDS Day. I added further down that it's "remarkable and strange" when a North American gay man who makes his living blogging, writing and speaking about issues of sex and sexuality "fails to even mention World AIDS Day in his blog", and when the same person, who regularly blogs about discrimination in schools, doesn't post about the child who is being barred from an American boarding school because he's HIV+. That isn't sanctimonious, which is why I repeat that you and the two others claiming it is don't understand the meaning of the word.
41
Irene @22 and 27: Yes, in Clan of the Cave Bear, a Neandertal young man rapes the protagonist, a young Homo Sapien girl. But in the later books, Auel describes men of "The Others" (modern humans) raping Clan women.
So the meta-message might be all men are brutes. Except Jondolar who is handsome, sensitive, has a huge cock and knows how to use it.
I find it a gas that Ayla is offended by The Others' use of the term "Flathead" for the Clan. The "F-word" therefore preceeded use of the N-word, G-word, T-word, etc, by 25,000 years. If this kind of pedantic word policing has been going on since then, what are the chances it will stop anytime soon?
So the meta-message might be all men are brutes. Except Jondolar who is handsome, sensitive, has a huge cock and knows how to use it.
I find it a gas that Ayla is offended by The Others' use of the term "Flathead" for the Clan. The "F-word" therefore preceeded use of the N-word, G-word, T-word, etc, by 25,000 years. If this kind of pedantic word policing has been going on since then, what are the chances it will stop anytime soon?
42
Better lay off Dingo, folks. If she keeps clutching her pearls, she's liable to fall off her high horse and hurt herself.
43
@41: Ah, okay...I hadn't read past the second book, so there you go. Criticism retracted for the rape bit, and anyway, what can one expect from a prehistoric bodice-ripper involving such magical creatures as a friendly ride-able lion and the oh-so-perfect Jondalar?
44
@38: "If humans will fuck sheep they will sure as hell fuck Neanderthals " Agreed. And it's not Urban Legend, it's Rural Fact - Dan just ran a bit about a convicted Horse Fucker with a long history of it.
25 years ago, as we learned of HIV coming from SIV, it was only ever reported as Africans butchering monkeys as "bush meat" like in the transmission of Kuru. I think the "bush" may have come in contact with the "meat" in another context for the species jump of Simian to Human to occur.
25 years ago, as we learned of HIV coming from SIV, it was only ever reported as Africans butchering monkeys as "bush meat" like in the transmission of Kuru. I think the "bush" may have come in contact with the "meat" in another context for the species jump of Simian to Human to occur.
45
@43: In Plains of Passage, Jondolar and Ayla meet a warped woman leader who imprisons the men in her tribe because she'd been so mistreated by her Other/Clan mate.
And when they finally get to Jondolar's Zelandoii Cave, there's another man who is a Other/Clan cross. Plus numerous mentions of increasing numbers of "deformed" Clan babies due to Cro-Mag rapes of Clan women.
Auel did seem pretty fixated on the phenom to the point of her having both a rape fetish and a caveman fetish being very plausible.
And when they finally get to Jondolar's Zelandoii Cave, there's another man who is a Other/Clan cross. Plus numerous mentions of increasing numbers of "deformed" Clan babies due to Cro-Mag rapes of Clan women.
Auel did seem pretty fixated on the phenom to the point of her having both a rape fetish and a caveman fetish being very plausible.
46
And so we come full circle. The worst thing you could be 25,000 years ago was trans-species. Each culture preferred its cis-species members. And each trans-species person initially hated being called out as such, until they developed enough trans-pride to accept the catagorization. Which many never did.
47
@45, and others - I thought of Auel’s handling of the inter-breeding as more of a conclusion based on observation:
Males will fuck anything.
Females tend towards subservience, maybe there’s an evolutionary reason.
Rape is motivated by hate.
There is often fear and its BFF, hatred, between races (and perhaps close species like Neanderthals and H-S-S).
Perhaps there was cross-breeding happening.
Perhaps it was rape.
Males will fuck anything.
Females tend towards subservience, maybe there’s an evolutionary reason.
Rape is motivated by hate.
There is often fear and its BFF, hatred, between races (and perhaps close species like Neanderthals and H-S-S).
Perhaps there was cross-breeding happening.
Perhaps it was rape.
49
David, our Clan of the Cave Bear expert, I haven't read those books since the early 80's, but isn't Ayla the first female Jondolar could finally sink the entirety of his huge cock into? As I recall, it was a real loincloth-ripper.
50
KMS @49: It was rare for a woman to accomodate "his prodigous member" (manhood, woman-maker, etc) but not unique. Ayla was unique for him in that he could penetrate her fully during her "First Rites", she wasn't fearful of his size, and she experienced only pleasure no pain - having previously been "opened" by Broud raping her.
Oh, and he fell in love for the first time.
Oh, and he fell in love for the first time.
51
@46, very nice! Except, of course, that this is indeed fiction and we have no idea what people of this time period thought of each other.
@47, gah, please tell me you did not just say this:
Since I do not yet have my Feminist Killjoy t-shirt or tag, and am about to take off for the day, I will simply point out that this sort of statement is just as egregiously offensive and unsubstantiated as saying "Blacks/Jews/Aborigines/etc tend toward subservience, maybe there’s an evolutionary reason" (i.e. maybe it's natural), because historically they have been enslaved/exterminated/treated like shit. Think hard about what you are saying -- the implications aren't pretty.
@47, gah, please tell me you did not just say this:
Females tend towards subservience, maybe there’s an evolutionary reason.
Since I do not yet have my Feminist Killjoy t-shirt or tag, and am about to take off for the day, I will simply point out that this sort of statement is just as egregiously offensive and unsubstantiated as saying "Blacks/Jews/Aborigines/etc tend toward subservience, maybe there’s an evolutionary reason" (i.e. maybe it's natural), because historically they have been enslaved/exterminated/treated like shit. Think hard about what you are saying -- the implications aren't pretty.
52
Thanks, David @50. I just found a hilarious review of the book on Amazon, in which a reader who enjoyed the first book couldn't finish the second because of Ayla's amazing feats, which the reviewer lists as:
"Between CotCB and the first half of this book, she:
Discovers the connection between sex and pregnancy
Invents the bra
Becomes the greatest hunter in the Clan and invents the double-stone throwing technique
Creates weavings, mats, and other wares that *of course* surpass everyone else's
Invents the hairbrush and the concept of braiding hair
Domesticates a wild horse, decides to ride it, then turns it into a draft animal after inventing the travois
Discovers how to make fire from pyrite and flint
And so on. All of this completely on her own. Plus, she's tall, blonde, and perfect with no character flaws. Or any broken bones or illnesses despite living alone for years (because she's a medicine woman, natch). I won't be reading any more of the series, but I wouldn't be surprised if Ayla winds up inventing the wheel, agriculture, aquaducts, and call waiting."
Apparently the romance derailed some of her readers who were interested in the prehistoric aspects of the story but not what another reviewer described:
"Enter Jondalar, a sort of paleolithic Fabio, on a journey toward...whatever destiny lies before him. On the way he has fun hopping into bed (VERY graphically) with just about every pretty cave-woman he comes across. WHAT HAPPENED? The beauty of the last book was the originality and believability of the characters. You really felt for them, especially Ayla, Iza, Creb, Brun, and some of the others. This Jondalar is a two-dimensional male-pinup admired far and wide for his incredible schlong (I'm not kidding)."
Ah well. Maybe it's as @45 posits, a possible Auel observation that "men will fuck anything" -- or maybe, there were enough "paleolithic Fabios" that it wasn't always rape. But our gal Ayla got it right when she realized the connection between fucking and getting knocked up.
More...
"Between CotCB and the first half of this book, she:
Discovers the connection between sex and pregnancy
Invents the bra
Becomes the greatest hunter in the Clan and invents the double-stone throwing technique
Creates weavings, mats, and other wares that *of course* surpass everyone else's
Invents the hairbrush and the concept of braiding hair
Domesticates a wild horse, decides to ride it, then turns it into a draft animal after inventing the travois
Discovers how to make fire from pyrite and flint
And so on. All of this completely on her own. Plus, she's tall, blonde, and perfect with no character flaws. Or any broken bones or illnesses despite living alone for years (because she's a medicine woman, natch). I won't be reading any more of the series, but I wouldn't be surprised if Ayla winds up inventing the wheel, agriculture, aquaducts, and call waiting."
Apparently the romance derailed some of her readers who were interested in the prehistoric aspects of the story but not what another reviewer described:
"Enter Jondalar, a sort of paleolithic Fabio, on a journey toward...whatever destiny lies before him. On the way he has fun hopping into bed (VERY graphically) with just about every pretty cave-woman he comes across. WHAT HAPPENED? The beauty of the last book was the originality and believability of the characters. You really felt for them, especially Ayla, Iza, Creb, Brun, and some of the others. This Jondalar is a two-dimensional male-pinup admired far and wide for his incredible schlong (I'm not kidding)."
Ah well. Maybe it's as @45 posits, a possible Auel observation that "men will fuck anything" -- or maybe, there were enough "paleolithic Fabios" that it wasn't always rape. But our gal Ayla got it right when she realized the connection between fucking and getting knocked up.
53
@30: I'd say we share with gourds more of our genome than that. Eukaryotes all have an awful lot in common, really; we're morphologically diverse, but do much the same thing biochemically.
54
I know you were quoting a reviewer, and I agree that Ayla's vast array of her discoveries were over the top, but, it's fiction, and pretty much all fictional protagonists are more interesting than the average person. They are smarter, more acomplished, have better sex with more people, etc.
I'd note that no one is derisive about Benjamin Franklin (Ambassador, author, printer, oceanographier, physicist, wrote the Dec of Ind, Poor Richards, invented bifocals, airtight stove, lighting rod, odometer, mathematical games and musical instruments; established the continent's first library, post office, public works department and utility district, etc, etc)
Or Leonardo da Vinci (painter, physicist, engineer, botanist, musican, sculptor, accused sodomite, etc) who made beautiful art and "invented" (imagined, really) the submarine, bicycle, tank, solar collector, helicopter and airplane centuries before anyone else.
But they were dudes. Not a cute chick. I was in the Outing Club with a tall blonde woman at UC Berkeley who very frequently when asked, "What's your major?" "Molecular biology" would get, "Isn't that HARD?!? (unspoken) for a blonde."
I'd note that no one is derisive about Benjamin Franklin (Ambassador, author, printer, oceanographier, physicist, wrote the Dec of Ind, Poor Richards, invented bifocals, airtight stove, lighting rod, odometer, mathematical games and musical instruments; established the continent's first library, post office, public works department and utility district, etc, etc)
Or Leonardo da Vinci (painter, physicist, engineer, botanist, musican, sculptor, accused sodomite, etc) who made beautiful art and "invented" (imagined, really) the submarine, bicycle, tank, solar collector, helicopter and airplane centuries before anyone else.
But they were dudes. Not a cute chick. I was in the Outing Club with a tall blonde woman at UC Berkeley who very frequently when asked, "What's your major?" "Molecular biology" would get, "Isn't that HARD?!? (unspoken) for a blonde."
55
@28 (with a tip of the hat to @36), there really is a lot of pumpkin fucking going on out there. Personally, I prefer it funny, as in this little gem. I had to laugh at their choice of music. :-)
56
I've wondered if we're more in love with the caveman (er, caveperson) than with the alien or the vampire or the zombie these days. Naah, it's all just CotCB, there doesn't seem to be much else. But, who knows? Maybe after the vampire and the zombie comes the Neandert(h)al...
57
@28 -- Why do you think we called 'em pumpkins in the first place?
Of course the funloving 'thals went overboard for pumpkins, leading to their extinction.
Of course the funloving 'thals went overboard for pumpkins, leading to their extinction.
58
@51 I personally do not tend towards subservience.
Auel's books were started thirty years ago. And certainly you'll agree that the general thinking throughout history (as taught by the Christian, Jewish, and Muslim faiths) and until relatively recently even the mental health industry saw women as simpering followers.
I grew up in a church. I had been fed the whole line of women are subservient to men for all my life and hated that message. There were lots of other reasons too, but that's the major one that drove me away from the Christian faith. So even though I hate that message and don't agree with the theory, you have to acknowledge that that has been the lasting lesson. They're still preaching that in churches to this day: men are the head of the family, women their help-mates.
I didn't state that women were subservient as fact, but that I figured it was Auel's observation and perhaps she supposed there were evolutionary reasons to that.
I suppose I could have phrased that differently, but I was trying to comment and finish a project at the same time....
Auel's books were started thirty years ago. And certainly you'll agree that the general thinking throughout history (as taught by the Christian, Jewish, and Muslim faiths) and until relatively recently even the mental health industry saw women as simpering followers.
I grew up in a church. I had been fed the whole line of women are subservient to men for all my life and hated that message. There were lots of other reasons too, but that's the major one that drove me away from the Christian faith. So even though I hate that message and don't agree with the theory, you have to acknowledge that that has been the lasting lesson. They're still preaching that in churches to this day: men are the head of the family, women their help-mates.
I didn't state that women were subservient as fact, but that I figured it was Auel's observation and perhaps she supposed there were evolutionary reasons to that.
I suppose I could have phrased that differently, but I was trying to comment and finish a project at the same time....
59
@53 : I think you're right.
@37 : since old humankind came from Africa, it's not either one N or the other. It's only one N (for Africans) or both Ns (for the African diaspora, which met Neanderthals).
And I guess that's one of the reasons why the racist, so-called christian, right wing hates evolution : they can't bear to know that their ancestors from several hundred years ago had dark skin - all of them.
Truly, one wonders what horrifies them ? Dark skin is *the* ideal protection from the harsh rays of the tropical sun. Ask the lions : they don't have pink noses, but black ones, and it's for a reason.
When evolution debunks racism - the right wing hates on evolution.
@37 : since old humankind came from Africa, it's not either one N or the other. It's only one N (for Africans) or both Ns (for the African diaspora, which met Neanderthals).
And I guess that's one of the reasons why the racist, so-called christian, right wing hates evolution : they can't bear to know that their ancestors from several hundred years ago had dark skin - all of them.
Truly, one wonders what horrifies them ? Dark skin is *the* ideal protection from the harsh rays of the tropical sun. Ask the lions : they don't have pink noses, but black ones, and it's for a reason.
When evolution debunks racism - the right wing hates on evolution.
61
I realize no one reads the anonymous comments, but can someone PLEASE mention Robert J. Sawyer's Neanderthal trilogy? Where, thanks to a science-experiment-gone-wrong, a portal is opened between our world and an alternative universe where the Neatherthals became the dominant species (with eventual modern human/ Neatherthal sex). Also fiction, of course, but lots of science throughout; Sawyer is a science-fiction writer who does his research.
62
@61, I didn't know about Sawyer's Neanderthal trilogy; what you say about it sounds interesting. I'll check it out.
@60, I think you'd probably have to say "from several hundred thousand years ago". Maybe also "from several hundreds of thousands of years ago". Is that correct, oh you, native speakers of English among the Sloggers? :-)
@60, I think you'd probably have to say "from several hundred thousand years ago". Maybe also "from several hundreds of thousands of years ago". Is that correct, oh you, native speakers of English among the Sloggers? :-)
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