Slog
News & ArtsTuesday, November 22, 2011
Occupy / Crime / Health Capsaicin and Pregnancy
Posted by Jonathan Golob on Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 11:37 AM
Capsaicin is considered a class B drug in pregnancy:
Animal reproduction studies have failed to demonstrate a risk to the fetus and there are no adequate and well-controlled studies in pregnant women OR Animal studies have shown an adverse effect, but adequate and well-controlled studies in pregnant women have failed to demonstrate a risk to the fetus in any trimester.
In plain English, the main ingredient in pepper spray has not been proven to be safe, but is generally regarded as safe to use in pregnancy.
With that said, in high quantities, Capsaicin can cause death [pdf]. The mechanism of death is generally respiratory failure—due to the effect the drug has on the respiratory tract.
2
The risks of acute stress during pregnancy is well known. I'm pretty sure being pepper sprays and carried off by police would be a good example of acute stress.
3
Women who are or could be pregnant, or who are trying to get pregnant may be at risk of spontaneous abortion or increased risk of birth defects.
Nursing mothers risk passing toxins on to their infant.
http://medic.wikia.com/wiki/Pepper_spray…
4
Thanks, doc. I also appreciated someone claiming obstetric experience who chimed in on last nights mega-shame-and-countershame thread with this late comment:
More...
My condolences to Jennifer. I feel really bad for her--going through a miscarriage is a miserable loss.http://slog.thestranger.com/blogs/slog/m…
I wanted to chime in to (hopefully) help with some of the speculation that's going on re: whether a kick to the abdomen could injure a fetus at 12 weeks (2-3 months).
I work in obstetrics, so see many women who have been in car accidents, falls, and/or blunt trauma to the abdomen.
First of all, no intelligent practitioner would tell a woman that she had a miscarriage as a direct result of XYZ. If he/she does, then he/she should not be practicing medicine/working as a nurse. Experienced medical practitioners are very savvy about what they do/do not say to patients (read: they are aware that anything they say could be misconstrued and used in a malpractice case). Having worked at Harborview in the past, I find it highly unlikely that one of the docs/nurses would tell a woman that she had a miscarriage as a result of pepper spray and a kick to the stomach.
At 12 weeks gestation, the fetus/uterus is so deep in the pelvis that it is virtually impossible to kick someone in the "stomach" and injure/kill a fetus. You'd have to kick/push down into a woman's pelvis, which is such an unusual angle that it would need to be a pre-meditated event. It isn't until approximately 20 weeks--when the uterus reaches the height of the belly button--that there is a remote possibility of injury (because the fetus is now "out of the pelvis" and no longer fully protected by the pelvis).
Our bodies do a good job of protecting the fetus--fat, pelvic bones, uterine muscle, amniotic fluid. The fetus is really well-cushioned. Because of this, the injury typically does not occur because the fetus was "hit", but because of a trauma to the placenta (placental abruption, where the placenta is partially/completely sheared off of the uterine wall, depriving the fetus of oxygen).
The fetus isn't as well protected from anything that can cross the placenta (which is virtually everything--food, drugs, environmental chemicals).
Unfortunately, as others have said, it is impossible to prove what caused her miscarriage because she was still in the first trimester of her pregnancy. I know she is angry, but dealing with her grief through legal channels will only make her more angry and bitter.
6
@2: Yes, but so is homelessness. And again, miscarriage in the 1st trimester happens about 20% of the time to women under the best of circumstances. I'm not condoning anything that the police did. I just think this is not a story that can do Occupy any good until and unless actual medical evidence links the event to the miscarriage.
8
Who knows what the effects are on problem pregnancies.
Changes in blood pressure or oxygen levels or stress all can cause added problems.
Changes in blood pressure or oxygen levels or stress all can cause added problems.
9
if she had reached three months - i don't think her chances of miscarrying were still the huge number that people keep quoting here. she was already partially out of the woods. the chances of miscarrying already dropped quite a bit once her embryo was big enough to show a heartbeat - and that was back at two months, or even a bit under two months.
she wasn't totally out of the woods yet, but i bet her chances of success were way better than 80%.
she wasn't totally out of the woods yet, but i bet her chances of success were way better than 80%.
10
Also keep in mind that that MSDS is for 100% undiluted capsaicin. (hot pepper extract) Pepper spray is usually less than 10% diluted. The other common ingredients are propylene oxide, used as a both food and drug additive, and water.
Being pepper sprayed is a harsh experience, and probably was too much force for the civil disobedience at the time, but it's very unlikely that pepper spray would cause a miscarriage.
It's yet to be determined if Ms Fox was actually pregnant, kicked, and then miscarried.
Being pepper sprayed is a harsh experience, and probably was too much force for the civil disobedience at the time, but it's very unlikely that pepper spray would cause a miscarriage.
It's yet to be determined if Ms Fox was actually pregnant, kicked, and then miscarried.
11
@9: http://www.americanpregnancy.org/pregnan…
"For women in childbearing years, the chances of having a miscarriage can range from 10-25%, and in most healthy women the average is about a 15-20% chance."
"Studies reveal that anywhere from 10-25% of all clinically recognized pregnancies will end in miscarriage... Most miscarriages occur during the first 13 weeks of pregnancy. "
"For women in childbearing years, the chances of having a miscarriage can range from 10-25%, and in most healthy women the average is about a 15-20% chance."
"Studies reveal that anywhere from 10-25% of all clinically recognized pregnancies will end in miscarriage... Most miscarriages occur during the first 13 weeks of pregnancy. "
12
The deepest shame seems to be the existence of homeless pregnant women. After that, police attacking non-violent citizens airing their grievances in public.
Nothing is right about this situation, regardless of where we might go with this-caused-a-miscarriage.
Nothing is right about this situation, regardless of where we might go with this-caused-a-miscarriage.
14
The deepest shame has to be that of the police who broke riot control training and now have their guild protecting the guilty amongst them.
15
@12: Who wants to bet the people shaming this woman for being homeless and pregnant are also the same ones who want to cut funding for that very group?
16
@15: The lack of empathy is the defining ideology of the modern conservative movement.
And that makes sense. If you're an oligarch, the only thing you really have to fear is regular people organizing, and standing up for themselves.
They've done a good job, creating a society where it's acceptable (nearly expected) to demonize a homeless woman who is pregnant.
And that makes sense. If you're an oligarch, the only thing you really have to fear is regular people organizing, and standing up for themselves.
They've done a good job, creating a society where it's acceptable (nearly expected) to demonize a homeless woman who is pregnant.
17
@15: I think that's a bit unfair. I'm not shaming her, but I do think being pregnant/having a child while homeless is selfish and irresponsible. Let me be clear: I'm 100% pro-choice. My ex-wife needed and got an abortion. It was incredibly hard for us both and still the right thing to do. I think every woman has the right to get an abortion, no questions asked. And I think the services we have in place to help the homeless, or poor women, are woefully inadequate.
I'm also a new father. A child is a wonderful, incredible thing, that should only be had by those willing to and capable of taking better care of them than they do themselves.
The discussion around this woman's situation has quite often been disgusting, but at least some of us disapprove of that situation for what I think are quite acceptable reasons. Just because you WANT something doesn't mean you should have it, particularly when it's another person.
I wouldn't wish a miscarriage on anybody. But I don't think it's unreasonable to wish some people made better decisions either.
I'm also a new father. A child is a wonderful, incredible thing, that should only be had by those willing to and capable of taking better care of them than they do themselves.
The discussion around this woman's situation has quite often been disgusting, but at least some of us disapprove of that situation for what I think are quite acceptable reasons. Just because you WANT something doesn't mean you should have it, particularly when it's another person.
I wouldn't wish a miscarriage on anybody. But I don't think it's unreasonable to wish some people made better decisions either.
18
I've got this sneaking suspicion that the studies of capsaicin have more to do with it's use in food contexts rather than in weaponised pepper spray, which is on order of 1000 times more concentrated than a jalepeno.
19
It's sad that she is homeless, although she did say her family was willing to take her in. That doesn't help all the homeless pregnant women, (I give a sizable donation from my check every payday to the United Way.) but to call Ms Fox homeless isn't exactly true.
I'm still wondering why no evidence has been presented to show that she was really pregnant, and that pepper spray exposure, along with trauma to her abdomen caused her to miscarry. (Fox claims that is what they told her at the hospital.) This story keeps being presented as fact without any supporting medical documentation.
I'm still wondering why no evidence has been presented to show that she was really pregnant, and that pepper spray exposure, along with trauma to her abdomen caused her to miscarry. (Fox claims that is what they told her at the hospital.) This story keeps being presented as fact without any supporting medical documentation.
20
@17
I know! When my wife got pregnant the first thing she wanted to do was go live on the street. Stop being so selfish I said!
Lucky she made the sacrifice of staying under a roof until the kid was born. When the baby is a little older we're all going to treat ourselves to the fun of life on the street. And why not? We've all done so much good why not give ourselves a little present and live it up, homeless style?
I know! When my wife got pregnant the first thing she wanted to do was go live on the street. Stop being so selfish I said!
Lucky she made the sacrifice of staying under a roof until the kid was born. When the baby is a little older we're all going to treat ourselves to the fun of life on the street. And why not? We've all done so much good why not give ourselves a little present and live it up, homeless style?
21
The pregnancy risk categories refer to a substance's medicinal compound. AFAIK, spraying someone in the face with aerosolized capsaicin is not among these uses. I would imagine (yep, can't back this up) the drug's distribution differs between the common topical form and large-quantity-aerosolized form employed here.
22
@17: You are defining the conditions in which a woman should be ALLOWED to carry a child to term. That is shaming.
I wish people would make better decisions to, but those decisions start with humility, and feeling some sort of compassion for your fellow humans. You show neither, and yet you think that your situation is somehow better for a child to be in. I disagree completely, but I am not sitting here shaming you for going ahead and having a baby anyway.
I wish people would make better decisions to, but those decisions start with humility, and feeling some sort of compassion for your fellow humans. You show neither, and yet you think that your situation is somehow better for a child to be in. I disagree completely, but I am not sitting here shaming you for going ahead and having a baby anyway.
24
@18: I agree with this comment. I would like to see some studies done on the effect of OC spray on an unborn fetus. The more developmental stages this study can outline, the more I will believe it.
25
@22: I certainly feel compassion for this woman. I don't believe thinking she was in a lousy situation or that she was irresponsible by trying to bring a child into the world in terrible circumstances in any way makes me incapable of feeling compassion for her. I feel compassion for alcoholics and drug addicts; that don't mean I'm not allowed to think they're irresponsible for continuing to drink and do drugs. I'm not sure where the 'humility' resides in having a baby when you're not currently capable of taking care of yourself, as she fully admitted she wasn't. Her family was supposedly going to do it for her. That, IMO, borders on arrogance, not humility.
@22: you can take comfort in sarcasm if you want, but it doesn't change the fact that bringing a baby into the world when you don't have the means to take care of it is a pretty selfish act. I'm sorry she's homeless, and if it's through no fault of her own then I really hope something can be done about it. But why would she want to put a newborn through the same thing? How is it not a selfish desire to put her own want - not need, but want - of a child over thoughts of its wellbeing?
@22: you can take comfort in sarcasm if you want, but it doesn't change the fact that bringing a baby into the world when you don't have the means to take care of it is a pretty selfish act. I'm sorry she's homeless, and if it's through no fault of her own then I really hope something can be done about it. But why would she want to put a newborn through the same thing? How is it not a selfish desire to put her own want - not need, but want - of a child over thoughts of its wellbeing?
26
I'm not saying that it justifies pepper spraying non-violent protesters, but this is interesting.
The Original Capsaicin Spiced Elixir
What is Capsaicin? Capsaicin is the active phytonutrient in chili peppers that boosts your metabolism and elevates your mood by releasing endorphins for a happy healthy high. We are proud to share the world’s first capsaicin spiced elixir. These organic, non-alcoholic elixirs layer capsaicin with refreshing fruit flavors for a refreshing kick. The more you drink, the better you feel.
http://www.prometheussprings.com/
28
No, I lie.. First was supposed to be @22, 2nd was supposed to be @20. Sorry, I'm apparently losing brain cells quickly as the day goes on.
29
The deepest shame seems to be the existence of homeless unmarried women whoring around getting pregnant.
30
11-
Once a normal fetal heartbeat has been heard (often at 8 weeks) the risk of miscarriage drops to 1%.
So, we of course don't know if the woman in question had an ultrasound that showed a normal fetal heart rate. But let's do assume that her pregnancy was a healthy one before the night in question.
my guess is that within that 13 weeks you mention, miscarriages happen more frequently in the first and second month rather than in the third. And the woman in question sounds like she was in her third month.
I'm not saying a friggin thing about whether or not she was treated fairly and whether or not pepper spray or a kick caused her miscarriage - I'm just pointing out that her chances of spontaneous miscarriage was probably not 15-20% at that point.
Once a normal fetal heartbeat has been heard (often at 8 weeks) the risk of miscarriage drops to 1%.
So, we of course don't know if the woman in question had an ultrasound that showed a normal fetal heart rate. But let's do assume that her pregnancy was a healthy one before the night in question.
my guess is that within that 13 weeks you mention, miscarriages happen more frequently in the first and second month rather than in the third. And the woman in question sounds like she was in her third month.
I'm not saying a friggin thing about whether or not she was treated fairly and whether or not pepper spray or a kick caused her miscarriage - I'm just pointing out that her chances of spontaneous miscarriage was probably not 15-20% at that point.
31
16
No JG.
Actually lack of empathy is a defining trait of the youngsters coming along today, the same crew that Danny tells us is all gaga over homosexual marriage.......
No JG.
Actually lack of empathy is a defining trait of the youngsters coming along today, the same crew that Danny tells us is all gaga over homosexual marriage.......
32
Devils advocate. Why is everyone automatically assuming the story is true? I've got questions... is she a drug addict? Is she mentally ill? You make a claim like this you best back it up.
Now everyone tell me what a fucking asshole nazi I am for reserving judgement!
Now everyone tell me what a fucking asshole nazi I am for reserving judgement!
33
@25
Most people would say blaming the poor is selfish, but most people lack the intellect to see the subtleties. How clever of you to figure out who is really selfish here.
As a bonus, you're off the hook from helping the less fortunate. Bravo, sir.
Most people would say blaming the poor is selfish, but most people lack the intellect to see the subtleties. How clever of you to figure out who is really selfish here.
As a bonus, you're off the hook from helping the less fortunate. Bravo, sir.
34
@33: Good gods, your self-righteousness must keep you warm at night. I donate to charity, I donate my time, and I never blamed the woman for anything other than being pregnant. Which, unless she was raped, was her call. What, exactly, defines being pregnant and homeless as a good combination in your heard?
35
@34
Stop donating, dumbass. You just PROVED that the poor are only living that way because they're selfish. They don't need charity, they need to wake up and stop thinking only of themselves.
Maybe you're one of those people who is a fount of infinite wisdom online but in real life you can never do right. Or the other way around? Not sure which...
Stop donating, dumbass. You just PROVED that the poor are only living that way because they're selfish. They don't need charity, they need to wake up and stop thinking only of themselves.
Maybe you're one of those people who is a fount of infinite wisdom online but in real life you can never do right. Or the other way around? Not sure which...
37
It is also worth noting that if our soldiers used pepper spray in Iraq or Afghanistan they would be commiting a war crime. Pepper spray is a banned chemical weapon to use against people even if you intend to kill them. The penalty for using chemical weapons is up to and including the death penalty.
We hold our soldiers to a high standard due to the nature of their work. We expect them to not cause undue pain and suffering with chemical weapons, it's the American way. What is so wrong about having the same expectation of our domestic paramilitary police force?
We hold our soldiers to a high standard due to the nature of their work. We expect them to not cause undue pain and suffering with chemical weapons, it's the American way. What is so wrong about having the same expectation of our domestic paramilitary police force?
38
My last post might sound like I am calling for a death penalty for police, I am not. I am simply pointing out that we consider it a crime to use chemical weapons offensively, this should always be the case.
Most people might not know this but out government stocks and trains with mustard gas and other chemical weapons. If American forces are attacked with chemical weapons we would likely use them defensively but never as a first offensive strike. I think it's fair to expect this of police.
If a police officer is in physical danger they can use pepper spray as an alternative to using their pistol. Pepper spray should never be used to subdue someone.
Most people might not know this but out government stocks and trains with mustard gas and other chemical weapons. If American forces are attacked with chemical weapons we would likely use them defensively but never as a first offensive strike. I think it's fair to expect this of police.
If a police officer is in physical danger they can use pepper spray as an alternative to using their pistol. Pepper spray should never be used to subdue someone.
40
@20, 33, 35: For the love of FSM, will you think for a second? Is it really such a hot idea for a homeless person to have a newborn baby? I agree with NateMan . . . if you can't take pretty good care of a kid, maybe you shouldn't have one.
@22: No one here is talking about forced abortion, or who is 'allowed to carry a child to term'. Just that sometimes doing so is a lousy decision.
I think NateMan has been pretty careful with his words, in ways I agree with. No one is demonizing this woman for being poor, or for being homeless--in fact, no one is 'demonizing' her at all, really. We're just calling into question her judgment in carrying a baby to term with the intention of raising it while apparently homeless.
Is this one of those things, where we tear each other apart over ideological purity? Yes, poor people are capable of making rational decisions. No, no one here wants to take away the power of poor/homeless people to make choices for themselves. But they're not immune from criticism, either.
PS I am aware that Dom's other thread calls much of this into question. Consider the argument academic, should it prove that this instance is bogus.
@22: No one here is talking about forced abortion, or who is 'allowed to carry a child to term'. Just that sometimes doing so is a lousy decision.
I think NateMan has been pretty careful with his words, in ways I agree with. No one is demonizing this woman for being poor, or for being homeless--in fact, no one is 'demonizing' her at all, really. We're just calling into question her judgment in carrying a baby to term with the intention of raising it while apparently homeless.
Is this one of those things, where we tear each other apart over ideological purity? Yes, poor people are capable of making rational decisions. No, no one here wants to take away the power of poor/homeless people to make choices for themselves. But they're not immune from criticism, either.
PS I am aware that Dom's other thread calls much of this into question. Consider the argument academic, should it prove that this instance is bogus.
Advertisement
Most Commented on Slog
-
Hating People Doesn't Make Them Thinner by Jen Graves
-
Los Angeles Gay Bar Bans Bachelorette Parties Until Marriage Equality Is Attained by David Schmader
-
Fill in the Blank by Grant Brissey
-
This Reminds Me of the Great Calculator Scare of the Late '70s/Early '80s by David Schmader
-
Idiot Tries to Defend Bigoted Anti-Gay-Marriage Preacher on Anderson Cooper by Paul Constant
-
The Sunday Morning News by Unpaid Intern
-
Six Moms with Too Much Time on Their Hands and a Shitty Website Decide to Fight Gay Superheroes by Paul Constant
-
What the Hell Is Wrong With Seattle's Pride Parade? by Dominic Holden
-
The Saturday Morning News by Unpaid Intern
-
Why Mayor McGinn's Wife Canceled Her Family's Seattle Times Subscription by Eli Sanders
RSS
Facebook
Twitter
Comments (40) RSS