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News & ArtsMonday, November 21, 2011
Occupy Pregnant Woman Blasted with Pepper Spray by SPD Says She Miscarried (Updated)
Posted by Dominic Holden on Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 5:45 PM
Posted at 3:55 p.m. and updated below with an interview with Jennifer Fox. Updated again on November 22 with questions about Fox's claims.
One of Occupy Seattle's outspoken activists who blogs under the name Ian Awesome has a post up this afternoon about the pregnant woman who was hit in last Tuesday's pepper spray attack by Seattle police:
On the 20th, Jeniffer Fox received news that she has miscarried, and alleges the miscarriage is due to the injuries she received during the police action on the 15th.
"It hurts. It's upsetting. I was ready to have a kid, because my family was going to support me in taking care of the child. Her name was going to be Miracle."
UPDATE: Jennifer Fox, 19, spoke to The Stranger at the Occupy Seattle encampment at Seattle Central Community College. Fox claimed that she was three months pregnant last Tuesday evening when she joined an Occupy Seattle march that stopped at the intersection of 5th Avenue and Pine Street.
"I was standing in the middle of the crowd when the police started moving in," she says. "I was screaming, 'I am pregnant, I am pregnant. Let me through. I am trying to get out.'" At that point, Fox continues, a Seattle police officer lifted his foot and it hit her in the stomach, and another officer pushed his bicycle into the crowd, again hitting Fox in the stomach. "Right before I turned, both cops lifted their pepper spray and sprayed me. My eyes puffed up and my eyes swelled shut," she says.
Fox asked for medical attention—the now-famous photo by Josh Trujillo of her being carried to the ambulance is here (click to the second photo)—and was rushed to Harborview Medical Center, she says, where doctors performed an ultrasound and said that they "didn't see anything wrong with the baby at the time." Fox says she had also seen a physician at Harborview for prenatal care about five week before.
"Everything was going okay until yesterday, when I started getting sick, cramps started, and I felt like I was going to pass out," Fox says.
A friend called for an ambulance near the community college campus. (Fox says she has been camping with Occupy Seattle since it first began in Westlake Park. She is homeless and says, "I don't have a place. This is the place I call home.") When she arrived at Harborview at 11:00 a.m., she says, a doctor told her that "there was no heartbeat" from the baby. "They diagnosed that I was having a miscarriage. They said the damage was from the kick and that the pepper spray got to it [the fetus], too."
As for joining the protests, she says, "I was worried about it, but I didn't know it would be this bad. I didn't know that a cop would murder a baby that's not born yet... I am trying to get lawyers."
I repeatedly asked Fox if she could provide any medical records that confirm the miscarriage or that the clash with police officers caused it. She did not have copies but says she asked her case worker at Harborview to provide her with records (I'll continue to ask for follow-up evidence and post if and when Fox provides those records). Harboview officials say they cannot provide any information, of course, except that medical records would mention those details. The Seattle Police Department did not immediately respond to request for comment.
UPDATE at 11:30 PM: IowaBoyDave posted a disturbing video of Fox taken Tuesday night, just after she was pepper sprayed and before medics arrived.
UPDATE on Nov. 22 at 3:47 PM: Yesterday Jennifer Fox claimed (first on this blog and then to The Stranger) that she miscarried her fetus, three months into her pregnancy, five days after police pepper sprayed her at an Occupy Seattle protest. I repeatedly asked if she could provide any medical records to back up her claim—a claim that doctors at Harborview Medical Center said her clash with police caused the miscarriage—but she said she would be in touch with a case worker. Lacking a way to verify her claim (except asking for her records) I said I would follow up.
So I tracked Fox down today at the Occupy Seattle encampment at Seattle Central Community College. Had she contacted anyone at the hospital? “I can’t go to the hospital until Sunday or Monday,” she said. Fox said that she’s having a memorial service for her miscarried baby and one of her fellow occupiers is planning a candlelight vigil, which will consume her time until next week. Can't she get away to the hospital for an hour? “No.” I provided Fox a copy of a records release for the hospital, which she put into her coat, but again Fox said she couldn’t go request her records until next week. I offered her a ride to and from the hospital, but she again refused. I explained to Fox that, lacking any evidence of her claim, her story was increasingly subject to scrutiny.
While sources in general should be given the benefit of the doubt—even if they are homeless women—and there is no evidence that Fox isn't being entirety forthright, her story looks increasingly dubious.
It's worth pointing out that in the Seattlepi.com article last week, the reporter noted that Fox was two months pregnant, when she told me that she was three months pregnant at the time.
UPDATE on Nov. 22 at 4:18 PM: Acting on an anonymous tip, we heard that Seattle police found Fox in a house six nearly nine weeks ago. According to a police report in which the names have been redacted, a suspect who appears to have a three-letter last name "said she is three months pregnant... and began crying when [a suspect] was arrested. [The person with a three-letter last name] began holding her stomach and screaming that it hurt." The woman was transferred to Harborview Medical Center. We are attempting to contact Fox to ask if she is the woman in the police report.
SPD has now provided a statement, saying that no complaint has been filed in the original incident. Seattle police sergeant Sean Whitcomb says: "We are aware of a claim that a pregnant woman who attended the November 15 Occupy Seattle march has been treated for miscarriage. We are also aware that she has attributed the miscarriage to the use of pepper spray and physical contact by Seattle police officers. No formal complaint has been made. Consistent with standard procedure, the Office of Professional Accountability, or OPA, has initiated an internal investigation to look into the matter further. The OPA investigators will be actively searching for any information that will support this claim."
1
Why would a pregnant women take part in a protest that she knew could risk the health of the child? Sounds like a lawsuit the city will have to deal with, assuming the autopsy proves she lost it due to the pepper spray.
4
@1 Why would anybody name their child Miracle? That's like a saccharine overstep that turned this whole this sour. Kind of like Kool-aid with 2 cups of sugar too many.
5
You know, I was gonna try to get in here before some concern troll showed up wondering why a pregnant woman would be protesting - it's risky, after all - but I see I lost.
Here's what matters: Jeniffer has suffered a deep and unimaginable loss. My heart breaks for her.
Also, I got an "information sheet" from the state telling me I shouldn't ride my bicycle when I was pregnant, because I might fall and hurt the baby. I rode until I was put on bed rest. Everyone thinks they know what pregnant women should be doing.
And if I were pregnant now, you can bet I'd be out there protesting for a better future for my kid. Just like Jeniffer.
Here's what matters: Jeniffer has suffered a deep and unimaginable loss. My heart breaks for her.
Also, I got an "information sheet" from the state telling me I shouldn't ride my bicycle when I was pregnant, because I might fall and hurt the baby. I rode until I was put on bed rest. Everyone thinks they know what pregnant women should be doing.
And if I were pregnant now, you can bet I'd be out there protesting for a better future for my kid. Just like Jeniffer.
6
Um...waaaaait a second, before the angry mobs start wielding pitchforks: In the reports I've seen, the woman was said to be either two or three months pregnant. She couldn't know the sex of the baby that early. This smacks of sensationalism.
In addition: Having a miscarriage at that stage of pregnancy is rarely due to outside influences and is usually due to a problem with the pregnancy or fetus itself. Bottom line: if you're going to miscarry, there's very little medical science can do to save the pregnancy, and if the pregnancy is healthy, there's very little a person can do to CAUSE a miscarriage. Why do you think so many women died in the past in botched abortions? If it was that easy to cause a miscarriage, women would be losing babies left and right.
I'm not saying the pepper spray wasn't the culprit, I don't know enough about how it affects the body to know that. I'm just stating that the facts as I know them make me VERY skeptical about this.
That being said, I've suffered miscarriages myself, and my heart goes out to her. It's not an easy loss to deal with. I'd just say slow down on the rush to find someone to blame. It is most likely not anyone's fault other than nature.
In addition: Having a miscarriage at that stage of pregnancy is rarely due to outside influences and is usually due to a problem with the pregnancy or fetus itself. Bottom line: if you're going to miscarry, there's very little medical science can do to save the pregnancy, and if the pregnancy is healthy, there's very little a person can do to CAUSE a miscarriage. Why do you think so many women died in the past in botched abortions? If it was that easy to cause a miscarriage, women would be losing babies left and right.
I'm not saying the pepper spray wasn't the culprit, I don't know enough about how it affects the body to know that. I'm just stating that the facts as I know them make me VERY skeptical about this.
That being said, I've suffered miscarriages myself, and my heart goes out to her. It's not an easy loss to deal with. I'd just say slow down on the rush to find someone to blame. It is most likely not anyone's fault other than nature.
8
The police made it dangerous, not the protestors. It is ridiculous to assume that exercising your first amendment rights would put you in danger. That is the problem right there. When did it become acceptable for police to make peaceful protests dangerous?
The 1% is trying to keep us focused on the police when the real problem is income inequality. Anyone who doesn't come out to fight for a more fair economy has their head in the sand.
The 1% is trying to keep us focused on the police when the real problem is income inequality. Anyone who doesn't come out to fight for a more fair economy has their head in the sand.
9
I'm sorry for Ms. Fox's loss and I hope that she is getting any medical care she needs.
@1 - If you had read the links you would have seen that she was homeless and was participating in the protests at least in part to have a safe(r) place to sleep.
@1 - If you had read the links you would have seen that she was homeless and was participating in the protests at least in part to have a safe(r) place to sleep.
11
Oh. Shit.
Awful.
And no, it's not her fault for being there. The right to peaceably assemble is at least nominally supposed to be guaranteed in this country. Police use of chemical weapons against nonviolent protesters is not something anyone should have to plan for.
@7, with a precedent like this, various states either already do or are already trying to. Various anti-abortion laws have threatened to make miscarriage tantamount to murder for years. The recent narrowly-averted personhood amendment in Mississippi probably would have, for one.
Awful.
And no, it's not her fault for being there. The right to peaceably assemble is at least nominally supposed to be guaranteed in this country. Police use of chemical weapons against nonviolent protesters is not something anyone should have to plan for.
@7, with a precedent like this, various states either already do or are already trying to. Various anti-abortion laws have threatened to make miscarriage tantamount to murder for years. The recent narrowly-averted personhood amendment in Mississippi probably would have, for one.
12
Yeah, if @6 is right and she was still in her 1st trimester, there's not going to be any way to say the pepper spray caused the miscarriage. It's incredibly common. And if she was homeless there had to be any number of risk factors going on.
I'm very sorry she lost a child she wanted, no matter the circumstances. It just doesn't sound much to me like there's any way to say what the cause was.
I'm very sorry she lost a child she wanted, no matter the circumstances. It just doesn't sound much to me like there's any way to say what the cause was.
13
..add Seattle to the list of cities defending police brutality lawsuits.
Great decisions by city government in times of fiscal hardship.
Great decisions by city government in times of fiscal hardship.
14
Why would a pregnant woman think she has rights in America?
I mean, like stuff listed in the Bill of Rights?
It's unthinkable!
If you believe the versions of the Bible in the South, women who are pregnant are chattel, right?
(oops left the Irony key on)
I mean, like stuff listed in the Bill of Rights?
It's unthinkable!
If you believe the versions of the Bible in the South, women who are pregnant are chattel, right?
(oops left the Irony key on)
15
@14 Is that anything like the sarcasm key? Mine's borked, and is permanently on. Makes for some interesting work emails.
16
@14 -- Pregnant women have the right to drink and smoke cigarettes. Doesn't mean those are smart choices.
18
I am sorry for her loss; miscarriage is uncomfortable and some people mourn their dreams. BUT, to say that an "unborn baby" is "irreplaceable" is disingenuous: there’s no way to know that this pregnancy will be her only pregnancy.
That sort of hyperbole and sensationalism will turn people (me) against this lawsuit. And, as people have mentioned here already: pregnancy is risky and until that baby is born and breathing, you don’t know if the pregnancy is viable anyway.
That sort of hyperbole and sensationalism will turn people (me) against this lawsuit. And, as people have mentioned here already: pregnancy is risky and until that baby is born and breathing, you don’t know if the pregnancy is viable anyway.
19
Oh brother. Miracle? Really?
Is John Edwards still practicing law? This case is made for him and his 30% ambulance chasing cut will be huge. Why don't we charge her instead for putting her baby in danger. Dumb bitch.
Is John Edwards still practicing law? This case is made for him and his 30% ambulance chasing cut will be huge. Why don't we charge her instead for putting her baby in danger. Dumb bitch.
20
Thank you for the re-post Dominic and Thank you Ian Awesome.
Stay sane and send good will towards this young woman.
Stay sane and send good will towards this young woman.
21
You know, there's no way for a woman to respond to the insult, "Dumb bitch." Because men dominate the dialog and set the tone of our public narrative, there's just no equivalent response to that.
22
@9 " was homeless and participating in the protests at least in part to have a safe(r) place to sleep."
Nickelsvilles or YWCA is a far safer place than SCCC, unless she was kicked out for smoking, drinking, stealing, fighting, etc. No pregnant woman, in their right mind, would ever put their child at risk like that.
Nickelsvilles or YWCA is a far safer place than SCCC, unless she was kicked out for smoking, drinking, stealing, fighting, etc. No pregnant woman, in their right mind, would ever put their child at risk like that.
23
If a pregnant woman shouldn't go to a protest, she also should ride in a car, cross a street, walk down a flight of stairs or do any number of "risky" things everyone does every damn day.
24
So sad.
(@16, en route to the delivery room my mother stopped at the Sorrento Hotel lobby bar for a last cocktail and cigarette before what she feared would be a lengthy labor. And look at me, I'm fine, right?)
(@16, en route to the delivery room my mother stopped at the Sorrento Hotel lobby bar for a last cocktail and cigarette before what she feared would be a lengthy labor. And look at me, I'm fine, right?)
26
Yeah, this story seems a little suspect for a whole bunch of reasons, not the least of which is, miscarriages happen in about 1 out of every 4 pregnancies. It is pretty ludicrous to think she could say with legal certainty what caused her pregnancy to terminate, let alone with any kind of medical certainty.
But I am curious to see if the right to lifers come out for her in force, asserting that her unborn fetus had the same rights she did.
But I am curious to see if the right to lifers come out for her in force, asserting that her unborn fetus had the same rights she did.
28
#21
a girl dumps a guy, and she out the door he say "you bitch", has ever once the girl come back begging to be forgive?
a girl dumps a guy, and she out the door he say "you bitch", has ever once the girl come back begging to be forgive?
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@23 Yes, crossing the street or walking down the stairs is just the same as goading the police into a fight.
31
@1: She was taking part in a peaceful protest. Why would a cop fire pepper spray into a crowd that might have a pregnant woman in it?
33
Yes, you're all doctors now -- congrats!
Face facts: pepper spray is an extremely caustic substance and causes pain and discomfort for days after exposure. There's internal swelling of all sorts and it's nothing short of completely intolerable.
However, to say that she shouldn't have gone assumes that pepper spray and other stress-inducing factors are a given. They're not. They're extraordinary measures and require huge oversteps by the police or protesters. She wasn't charging the cops and she wasn't beating the crap out of them. If she had gone far beyond rational limits then KOMO and KING and Q13 and all the other news outlets would be shrieking and showing ample footage of the offense. They didn't. They couldn't even snag footage of the reported bottles so apparently the SPD's tolerance is far too low.
Now with regards to sex: she was pregnant and really excited. If she's wanted a girl all this time then her baby will be a girl until proven otherwise. Yes, too soon to tell the sex in most cases (but she was probably told) but not too soon for an expectant mother to hang her hopes on having the daughter she's probably stayed up late nights waiting for.
And showing this mock concern for her well-being is really shitty. You didn't care about her before this and chances are you won't care about her or other homeless mothers (and non-mothers) after this. This is yet another reason why Occupy protests. For some it raises awareness and for others -- the real scumbags -- it makes things reeeeeeeeally uncomfortable.
Glad to see that in your discomfort you've dug deep into the shittiest mental cesspool you could find, trolls.
Face facts: pepper spray is an extremely caustic substance and causes pain and discomfort for days after exposure. There's internal swelling of all sorts and it's nothing short of completely intolerable.
However, to say that she shouldn't have gone assumes that pepper spray and other stress-inducing factors are a given. They're not. They're extraordinary measures and require huge oversteps by the police or protesters. She wasn't charging the cops and she wasn't beating the crap out of them. If she had gone far beyond rational limits then KOMO and KING and Q13 and all the other news outlets would be shrieking and showing ample footage of the offense. They didn't. They couldn't even snag footage of the reported bottles so apparently the SPD's tolerance is far too low.
Now with regards to sex: she was pregnant and really excited. If she's wanted a girl all this time then her baby will be a girl until proven otherwise. Yes, too soon to tell the sex in most cases (but she was probably told) but not too soon for an expectant mother to hang her hopes on having the daughter she's probably stayed up late nights waiting for.
And showing this mock concern for her well-being is really shitty. You didn't care about her before this and chances are you won't care about her or other homeless mothers (and non-mothers) after this. This is yet another reason why Occupy protests. For some it raises awareness and for others -- the real scumbags -- it makes things reeeeeeeeally uncomfortable.
Glad to see that in your discomfort you've dug deep into the shittiest mental cesspool you could find, trolls.
35
Are our rights to freedom of expression conditioned upon our health status?
Her pregnancy has absolutely no relevance to her right to peaceful protest. It is an absolutely outrageous premise to suggest that pregnant women must muzzle themselves, you know, just in case some asshole cop decides to go off. Fuck that.
Her pregnancy has absolutely no relevance to her right to peaceful protest. It is an absolutely outrageous premise to suggest that pregnant women must muzzle themselves, you know, just in case some asshole cop decides to go off. Fuck that.
37
ok well just to play doctor like the rest of you and just because i like facts, since someone said she was "two to three months pregnant", i'd like to point out that her fetus may really be old enough to know the sex. CVS is done at 10-12 weeks. but i see that she is described as "homeless" so maybe she doesn't have access to that test...anyways. it's only too early if the only sexing method is ultrasound.
39
Interesting facts about pepper spray. And about how chemical grade pepper spray is nearly 6 times stronger than a habanero pepper. It's pure chemical capsaicin. None of you know what kind of effect that might have on a fetus, because there just aren't that many studies into the long-term effects of being doused in weapons-grade pepper spray.
40
Dom, check the last link — that's Dorli Rainey being carried out of the protest, not Jeniffer Fox.
That said, I won't comment on the possible causes of Fox's miscarriage, but my heart goes out to her for the loss of her baby.
That said, I won't comment on the possible causes of Fox's miscarriage, but my heart goes out to her for the loss of her baby.
41
Lot of "hur hur" idiots on here. WHY THE FUCK SHE EXERCISE HER 1ST AMENDMENT RIGHTS WHILE PREGNANT!? SHE WAS ASKING FOR A FIGHT! FUCKING DUMB BITCH HAHAH" No matter how you dress it up, that's how dumb you sound.
43
** They said the damage was from the kick and that the pepper spray got to it, too."**
There were at least 5 cameras recording all this and theres no footage of the cop kicking her in the stomach? I dont remember a kick to the abdomen being part of the original story. A kick (blunt force trama) is going to show up when the fetus is expunged, which should be any day now, yes/no?
There were at least 5 cameras recording all this and theres no footage of the cop kicking her in the stomach? I dont remember a kick to the abdomen being part of the original story. A kick (blunt force trama) is going to show up when the fetus is expunged, which should be any day now, yes/no?
44
My deepest heartfelt condolences go to Miss Fox. I know the pain of miscarriage, it is heartbreaking. There are several facts that may never be proven as to why/how this happened, but the bottom line is that a woman has lost her precious baby.
45
@40) Click to the second photo in the series.
@42) By "it" she means her fetus. I'll clarify in brackets.
@42) By "it" she means her fetus. I'll clarify in brackets.
46
first allow me to say that this is a personal tragedy for this young woman of a tremendous magnitude that i can't even imagine (as a childless man). now, allow me to get ridiculously cynical .... one of the thing that progressives need to learn, is that the truth doesn't matter when you are trying to convince the populace to support you. yes, you should DECIDE on your positions based upon facts & evidence, but using those things to convince other people is a guaranteed loser. individuals may (or may not) respond to evidence & thoughtful inquiry, but groups of people do not. groups of people respond to narratives (that play to their fears & biases). do you see conservatives worrying about the truthfulness of their narratives? answer=no. hell, they embrace lies more or less openly & they STILL get people to embrace their narratives. this miscarriage is a narrative opportunity. something that everyone will respond to, just like the '84-year old pepper sprayed' meme took off, so will this. embrace that & use this for what it is useful for. don't sit around & debate whether it actually was the cause. that's doing the right wing's work for them. truth doesn't matter. narratives matter. this is a winning narrative.
47
@45,
I know she means the fetus. What I don't buy is that a doctor would flat-out tell her that the pepper spray got to "it" without irrefutable medical evidence, which obviously no one has at this point. She's either exaggerating or someone at Harborview needs his/her license suspended.
I know she means the fetus. What I don't buy is that a doctor would flat-out tell her that the pepper spray got to "it" without irrefutable medical evidence, which obviously no one has at this point. She's either exaggerating or someone at Harborview needs his/her license suspended.
49
A kick to the fetus would have created trama that could have been seen on the ultra-sound, doctors would have advised her that the baby was not fine. However the pepper spray could have had something to do with it, but not this alleged mystery kick. Something as offensive as a cop kicking a pregnant women in the womb would have been posted to youtube by now.
Oh and most people who get the shit kicked out of them by the cops, document it. A kick that hard, to harm the fetus, would have left welt marks. Not sure if we'll ever be able to verify this as the moment she lawyers up, McGinn will be falling over himself to settle out of court.
Oh and most people who get the shit kicked out of them by the cops, document it. A kick that hard, to harm the fetus, would have left welt marks. Not sure if we'll ever be able to verify this as the moment she lawyers up, McGinn will be falling over himself to settle out of court.
52
People, I know we use news as entertainment and a ammunition for our gossip filled, spiritually void existence. By for the love of God and dignity, just stop. Stop judging, stop supporting pre-esisting arguments. Instead, be saddened. Be silent. All death is tragedy. I don't care if you are Newt Gingrich (OWS hater) or fucking Kalle Lasn (OWS brainchild), a cop or a protestor who was there (like myself): A mother lost a child. If that actually divides us we are a disgusting culture. Nobody will ever know for sure who's fault it is, and guess what: Nobody wanted it to happen. Not the cops, not the protesters, not the apathetic people watching from Starbucks drinking pumpkin spice lattes. So just take a moment of silence, call your mom or kid and say "I love you", and learn to have compassion for human beings. If you want to debate, find another subject. Like how to promote justice and sustainability. Thank you my Seattle neighbors, much love.
54
oh god i hope this is true
SPD is 100% fucked if so
you can shoot homeless brown people, you punch teenage girls in the face, you can mace grandmas who are friends of the mayor, but don't fuck with white babies.
SPD is 100% fucked if so
you can shoot homeless brown people, you punch teenage girls in the face, you can mace grandmas who are friends of the mayor, but don't fuck with white babies.
55
I'm not really very upset by a woman having a miscarriage early in her pregnancy. I can't get worked up about it, it happens all the time.
The police use of violence is wrong, pervasive, and upsetting.
The police use of violence is wrong, pervasive, and upsetting.
56
If true, it's very sad for her. So far there doesn't seem to be any documentation to show that she had a miscarriage, let alone what may have caused it. Nor has it been established that she was ever really pregnant. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but it shouldn't be taken as fact at this time. A 19 year old homeless girl may not be the most stable person.
58
"BUT, to say that an "unborn baby" is "irreplaceable" is disingenuous: there’s no way to know that this pregnancy will be her only pregnancy. "
So if parents have more than one kid, one of them is replaceable? Yes, this baby IS irreplaceable. Sorry.
So if parents have more than one kid, one of them is replaceable? Yes, this baby IS irreplaceable. Sorry.
59
Wow. Just. Wow. Some of you people are real works of art. You should be hanging on the walls of the 1%.
61
Thanks SPD, we Seattle tax payers can surely afford your continuing misconduct from a minority of officers.
62
...damage to the uterine lining, the placenta, or the cervix could easily be missed by an ultra sound. (I had a tumor the size of a grapefruit that three ultrasounds missed on my ovaries. A cat scan with contrast finally identified it) Damage does not have to occur directly to the fetus in order to cause miscarriage, the uterine environment simply needs to be disturbed to the point of not being a viable for sustaining life. In addition, a crowd that large it would be impossible to see if she was kicked or not... as anyone close enough was pepper sprayed thus rendering them sightless and unable to document anything. Its a shame we are not taxing the one percent more. So that programs for homeless mothers were able to accept more individuals into them and forcing pregnant a19 year old into the streets. YWCA was mentioned earlier...they are only able to help if you are 18 and under and pregnant. My heart goes out to you Ms. Fox and I hope you continue to strive for a better world while the rest of us sit and comment from our warm comfy homes and many or your fellow homeless die across the country from freezing. Thank you for having so much less than the rest of us while fighting so hard for us.
63
@53 "You're a doctor specializing in fetal medicine? No? Then STFU."
No, but my wife has had 4 miscarriages in the past 2 years.
No, but my wife has had 4 miscarriages in the past 2 years.
64
"Police use of chemical weapons against nonviolent protesters is not something anyone should have to plan for."
Great point. I shouldn't have to plan for car theft either. Time to deliberately drive my car to a bad neighborhood and leave the doors unlocked because I shouldn't have to plan for bad things possibly happening, right? Then I'll get Real Mad when something bad happens
Great point. I shouldn't have to plan for car theft either. Time to deliberately drive my car to a bad neighborhood and leave the doors unlocked because I shouldn't have to plan for bad things possibly happening, right? Then I'll get Real Mad when something bad happens
65
Oh no, lets not consider blame on the people who hit her stomach or sprayed her with chemical agents while she was screaming "I'm pregnant"...lets instead blame her.
Oh lets move past blaming her and attack the name choice, her situation or the fact that she knew the sex of her baby and had picked out a name....Which anyone who has been pregnant knows women do all the time before officially finding out.
No lets quote statistics and say that it couldnt be the violent cops fault, just fate...after all miscarriages are common......Where is the outrage that a pregnant woman was hit and dosed with pepper spray at a PEACEFUL PROTEST?
Who cares how far along she was, what her financial status is, the name she picked , or why she was there. This never should have happened. PERIOD. STOP JUSTIFYING THE HORROR. This is not ok. Regardless of whether or not its common for an early trimester pregnancy to miscarry. Regardless of whether or not she is poor, homeless, un-married, WHATEVER it doesnt matter. It doesnt matter if you would have made the same decisions if you were her.
What matters is that she was pepper sprayed in the face and physically hit.
Oh lets move past blaming her and attack the name choice, her situation or the fact that she knew the sex of her baby and had picked out a name....Which anyone who has been pregnant knows women do all the time before officially finding out.
No lets quote statistics and say that it couldnt be the violent cops fault, just fate...after all miscarriages are common......Where is the outrage that a pregnant woman was hit and dosed with pepper spray at a PEACEFUL PROTEST?
Who cares how far along she was, what her financial status is, the name she picked , or why she was there. This never should have happened. PERIOD. STOP JUSTIFYING THE HORROR. This is not ok. Regardless of whether or not its common for an early trimester pregnancy to miscarry. Regardless of whether or not she is poor, homeless, un-married, WHATEVER it doesnt matter. It doesnt matter if you would have made the same decisions if you were her.
What matters is that she was pepper sprayed in the face and physically hit.
66
I love you, philosophy school dropout. I have been arguing "truth doesn't matter" for years. RIGHT ON.
67
@ 63 (Kinison),
I'm sorry to hear about your loss. A miscarriage is a lot to grieve, four is overwhelmingly sad. My condolences to both you and your wife. Take care.
Kind regards,
k
I'm sorry to hear about your loss. A miscarriage is a lot to grieve, four is overwhelmingly sad. My condolences to both you and your wife. Take care.
Kind regards,
k
68
So who is allowed to peacefully protest? No priests trying to protect people, no disableds who are desperate because their services are being cut, no fathers with dependent children, no male BLACKS who will be the first to be picked-off, beated, jailed (says friend well-employed by The County), no women who are 6 weeks pregnant but don't know it, no women who are homeless and desperate and pregnant...THINK ABOUT YOUR ARGUMENT FOR WHO IS ALLOWED TO PEACEFULLY PROTEST. I bet *you* are afraid to protest because you might lose something. Now that is fucked.
69
Well the be fair, according to the police, the fetal position is "active resistance" so it had it coming.
71
Every single hypocrite bemoaning the tragedy of this has walked past a pregnant homeless woman and been struck by how tragic it is that so many people who can't take care of babies choose to have them anyway.
72
@Kinison:
To all the people who are blaming Ms. Fox for this tragedy, I would like to point out that Ms. Fox was presumably working off of the traditional American precedent that peaceful protesters do not get attacked by the police. Let me remind you that Ms. Fox was punched in the stomach by a police officer—if you think she should have expected this in America, you're nuts.
To all the people who are blaming Ms. Fox for this tragedy, I would like to point out that Ms. Fox was presumably working off of the traditional American precedent that peaceful protesters do not get attacked by the police. Let me remind you that Ms. Fox was punched in the stomach by a police officer—if you think she should have expected this in America, you're nuts.
73
If this is true, then that means the police committed cold-blooded murder, according to the neo-cons. "Right to life", "sanctity of the unborn", that sort of thing.
75
She was kicked in the stomach at a non-violent protest. Why would anyone expect violence at a NON-VIOLENT-PROTEST? Had anyone assumed they would be pepper sprayed and kicked in the face, chances are it would have been a violent protest very quickly.
Also, I'm not sure where you expect a homeless person to go in order to be safe, but a non-violent protest surrounded by caring people seems like a pretty damn good decision.
Also, I'm not sure where you expect a homeless person to go in order to be safe, but a non-violent protest surrounded by caring people seems like a pretty damn good decision.
76
If it turns out she's not been truthful about being pregnant, and subsequently having a miscarriage, this will be just another thing that alienates the vast majority of the 99% from the protesters.
77
How about everybody chill out until some actual journalism gets done? All of this needs to be confirmed or debunked through investigation and documentation. You know? Fact-checking?
79
I am very sorry for her loss. You should all be ashamed of yourselves for assuming things about this woman, and pointing fingers. Nobody but the mother has the right to say what is good or not good for their child. I would assume that participating in a peaceful protest would not end up injuring a baby. If I were pregnant, I would still want to go and practice my 1st amendment right with the rest of the 99%. If I were a mother, I would want rights for my child...so they could have a better future. And YES, there ARE 19 year old homeless girls...and they have rights too! I'm 17 and was kicked out of my house. I understand where this girl is coming from. It doesn't matter how many months she was pregnant or even if there are holes in this story... What matters is that a woman lost her baby, possibly because of the police brutality surrounding the Occupy protests. Don't any of you care? Or do you just want to sit there, behind your computers, poking fun at a woman who miscarried a baby and pointing fingers at a movement you probably know close to nothing about?
80
@72 "Let me remind you that Ms. Fox was punched in the stomach by a police officer"
First this was reported last week, there was no mention of being kicked in the stomach by a cop, or the cops bike tire. Now you say she was punched? While I clearly agree that its bullshit for a police officer to do this, I would very much like to see the medical records she says proves the cops killed her baby.
So far, it kinda reminds me of the movie Citizen Ruth.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0115906/
First this was reported last week, there was no mention of being kicked in the stomach by a cop, or the cops bike tire. Now you say she was punched? While I clearly agree that its bullshit for a police officer to do this, I would very much like to see the medical records she says proves the cops killed her baby.
So far, it kinda reminds me of the movie Citizen Ruth.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0115906/
81
Whatever happened to her, she certainly looked like she was in a lot of pain as she was being carried away from the protest. My heart goes out to her for losing her baby.
82
Rotten:
At 19 years old, after my dad lost his job, I went from working part-time and going to college to dropping out so I could work full time--and I wound up homeless anyway.
Have you ever been homeless? Do you even know any homeless people? Do you have any understanding at all of the variety of circumstances by which people find themselves homeless? Do you have the slightest idea what it takes to get out of that situation once you're in it?
Take your grain of salt and choke on it.
At 19 years old, after my dad lost his job, I went from working part-time and going to college to dropping out so I could work full time--and I wound up homeless anyway.
Have you ever been homeless? Do you even know any homeless people? Do you have any understanding at all of the variety of circumstances by which people find themselves homeless? Do you have the slightest idea what it takes to get out of that situation once you're in it?
Take your grain of salt and choke on it.
83
I can't believe any people here are trying to say there's only small chance that it was due to the pepper spray when it SPECIFICALLY states she was hit twice IN the stomach. A blow to the stomach, (such as the kick mentioned) is enough to cause miscarriage at ANY stage of the pregnancy.
the law enforcement is getting out of hand, and for what? How many PEACEFUL protesters are being arrested for executing their right. When this woman stated "I am pregnant" and "I'm trying to get out", there is no excuse for why as an officer you should be raising your fist (or leg, in this case) at her. I don't care if you agree or disagree with the protesting itself, but a retired officer was arrested for peaceful protest that was directed at the law enforcement, a pregnant woman was kicked in the stomach, someone's dog was killed (which posed no threat, and if it were me, anyone harming my pets or loved ones would not go unpunished), people are being sat down and pepper sprayed as punishment when it should only be used in defense. A woman of 100lbs and about five feet tall was sprayed, point blank while her mouth and eyes were open.
I understand crowds are difficult to control. I understand someone running at an officer is a threat, I understand armed civilians are a threat, I understand all of these things.
But I refuse to blame this girl because she protested, because peaceful protests should be PEACEFUL. And she was not being violent, threatening or non compliant. She was trying to leave to avoid physical altercations, which sadly enough resulted in a police officer assaulting her.
I'm disgusted with those who are trying to defend situations like these and blame the victim.
If it was your sister, wife, daughter, friend who was pregnant and kicked in the stomach by ANYONE, police or not, you would be enraged. Where is this same reaction for someone who is taking part in trying to better the country?
More...
the law enforcement is getting out of hand, and for what? How many PEACEFUL protesters are being arrested for executing their right. When this woman stated "I am pregnant" and "I'm trying to get out", there is no excuse for why as an officer you should be raising your fist (or leg, in this case) at her. I don't care if you agree or disagree with the protesting itself, but a retired officer was arrested for peaceful protest that was directed at the law enforcement, a pregnant woman was kicked in the stomach, someone's dog was killed (which posed no threat, and if it were me, anyone harming my pets or loved ones would not go unpunished), people are being sat down and pepper sprayed as punishment when it should only be used in defense. A woman of 100lbs and about five feet tall was sprayed, point blank while her mouth and eyes were open.
I understand crowds are difficult to control. I understand someone running at an officer is a threat, I understand armed civilians are a threat, I understand all of these things.
But I refuse to blame this girl because she protested, because peaceful protests should be PEACEFUL. And she was not being violent, threatening or non compliant. She was trying to leave to avoid physical altercations, which sadly enough resulted in a police officer assaulting her.
I'm disgusted with those who are trying to defend situations like these and blame the victim.
If it was your sister, wife, daughter, friend who was pregnant and kicked in the stomach by ANYONE, police or not, you would be enraged. Where is this same reaction for someone who is taking part in trying to better the country?
84
Rotten:
At 19 years old, after my dad lost his job, I went from working part-time and going to college to dropping out so I could work full time--and I wound up homeless anyway.
Have you ever been homeless? Do you even know any homeless people? Do you have any understanding at all of the variety of circumstances by which people find themselves homeless? Do you have the slightest idea what it takes to get out of that situation once you're in it?
Take your grain of salt and choke on it.
At 19 years old, after my dad lost his job, I went from working part-time and going to college to dropping out so I could work full time--and I wound up homeless anyway.
Have you ever been homeless? Do you even know any homeless people? Do you have any understanding at all of the variety of circumstances by which people find themselves homeless? Do you have the slightest idea what it takes to get out of that situation once you're in it?
Take your grain of salt and choke on it.
86
I can't believe any people here are trying to say there's only small chance that it was due to the pepper spray when it SPECIFICALLY states she was hit twice IN the stomach. A blow to the stomach, (such as the kick mentioned) is enough to cause miscarriage at ANY stage of the pregnancy.
the law enforcement is getting out of hand, and for what? How many PEACEFUL protesters are being arrested for executing their right. When this woman stated "I am pregnant" and "I'm trying to get out", there is no excuse for why as an officer you should be raising your fist (or leg, in this case) at her. I don't care if you agree or disagree with the protesting itself, but a retired officer was arrested for peaceful protest that was directed at the law enforcement, a pregnant woman was kicked in the stomach, someone's dog was killed (which posed no threat, and if it were me, anyone harming my pets or loved ones would not go unpunished), people are being sat down and pepper sprayed as punishment when it should only be used in defense. A woman of 100lbs and about five feet tall was sprayed, point blank while her mouth and eyes were open.
I understand crowds are difficult to control. I understand someone running at an officer is a threat, I understand armed civilians are a threat, I understand all of these things.
But I refuse to blame this girl because she protested, because peaceful protests should be PEACEFUL. And she was not being violent, threatening or non compliant. She was trying to leave to avoid physical altercations, which sadly enough resulted in a police officer assaulting her.
I'm disgusted with those who are trying to defend situations like these and blame the victim.
If it was your sister, wife, daughter, friend who was pregnant and kicked in the stomach by ANYONE, police or not, you would be enraged. Where is this same reaction for someone who is taking part in trying to better the country?
More...
the law enforcement is getting out of hand, and for what? How many PEACEFUL protesters are being arrested for executing their right. When this woman stated "I am pregnant" and "I'm trying to get out", there is no excuse for why as an officer you should be raising your fist (or leg, in this case) at her. I don't care if you agree or disagree with the protesting itself, but a retired officer was arrested for peaceful protest that was directed at the law enforcement, a pregnant woman was kicked in the stomach, someone's dog was killed (which posed no threat, and if it were me, anyone harming my pets or loved ones would not go unpunished), people are being sat down and pepper sprayed as punishment when it should only be used in defense. A woman of 100lbs and about five feet tall was sprayed, point blank while her mouth and eyes were open.
I understand crowds are difficult to control. I understand someone running at an officer is a threat, I understand armed civilians are a threat, I understand all of these things.
But I refuse to blame this girl because she protested, because peaceful protests should be PEACEFUL. And she was not being violent, threatening or non compliant. She was trying to leave to avoid physical altercations, which sadly enough resulted in a police officer assaulting her.
I'm disgusted with those who are trying to defend situations like these and blame the victim.
If it was your sister, wife, daughter, friend who was pregnant and kicked in the stomach by ANYONE, police or not, you would be enraged. Where is this same reaction for someone who is taking part in trying to better the country?
87
Who knows how much of this is true, but the Occupy protestors do seem awfully eager to see themselves as victims of oppression.
89
A pregnant woman would want to take part in the protests because she would want a better world for her child to be born into...
91
WOW SHE SHOWED UP TO A PEACEFUL PROTEST AND DIDN'T EXPECT SOMEONE TO KILL HER UNBORN CHILD HOW NAIVE WHAT A HORRIBLE MOTHER
92
Let's not blame the victim and say it's the woman's fault for choosing to endanger her baby by PEACEFULLY PROTESTING. Peacefully protesting should not be dangerous or put one at risk for violence. I am skeptical that the pepper spray actually caused the miscarriage, but see this as beside the point - our policemen should not be attacking pregnant women. Or anyone, actually, who doesn't pose a legitimate threat.
93
She's a law breaker for participating in a peaceful march? Have you even *seen* the videos of the police actions against the Occupiers on that night in question? A priest was peppersprayed (in full robe, cross, etc.....the clothing of his official duties!), an 84 year old woman, a 2 year old child (whose parents expected to *peacefully* use their Constitutional rights to freedom of speech and assembly.
You're equating standing in a street with being a "law breaker"? That's so ridiculous I don't even know how to respond.
So the fact that her baby is dead because she broke a law by standing in a street.....that's not a tragedy? I weep for the obvious large chunk of empty flesh where your human heart used to be. It's not like she was robbing a bank or pushing drugs on people. The woman was just standing there.
So let's look at the facts of the case before us.
Ms. Fox (the mother) is homeless. Occupy offered her a safe place to sleep and improve herself. She was marching in the protest because there was no expectation of violence (Occupiers have repeatedly, in print and action avowed themselves a non-violent movement) and were engaged in a federally sanctioned (i.e., it's Constitutional) act of civil disobedience. At worst, the protesters should have been arrested one by one. The pepper spray response, kick to her stomach while she's screaming "I'm pregnant, I'm pregnant, let me out!" was unwarranted and a brutally excessive use of force for what legally amounted only to a traffic violation (jaywalking).
The Seattle police is already under investigation for brutality to the poor and minoity communities) by the Federal Department of Justice. They're note exactly known for holding back. Many of them were reported to have made jokes and laughed as they pepper-sprayed Occupiers.
From the article: "A friend called for an ambulance near the community college campus. (Fox says she has been camping with Occupy Seattle since it first began in Westlake Park. She is homeless and says, "I don't have a place. This is the place I call home.") When she arrived at Harborview at 11:00 a.m., she says, a doctor told her that "there was no heartbeat" from the baby. "They diagnosed that I was having a miscarriage. They said the damage was from the kick and that the pepper spray got to it [the fetus], too.""
It's not "looking for trouble" to engage in peaceful, Constitutionally protected rights. It's unthinking and ridiculous in the extreme to focus merely on the fact that a pregnant woman was at the protest---I urge you to look at he reverse: it's not the fact that she was there that's important: it's the fact that a child is dead due to police action and excessive brutality. Placing blame on the mother's shoulder removes the culpability from the police for their actions and I'm appalled that ordinary, normal people would openly be advocating for essentially execution street-justice style at the hands of the local constabulary. .
More...
You're equating standing in a street with being a "law breaker"? That's so ridiculous I don't even know how to respond.
So the fact that her baby is dead because she broke a law by standing in a street.....that's not a tragedy? I weep for the obvious large chunk of empty flesh where your human heart used to be. It's not like she was robbing a bank or pushing drugs on people. The woman was just standing there.
So let's look at the facts of the case before us.
Ms. Fox (the mother) is homeless. Occupy offered her a safe place to sleep and improve herself. She was marching in the protest because there was no expectation of violence (Occupiers have repeatedly, in print and action avowed themselves a non-violent movement) and were engaged in a federally sanctioned (i.e., it's Constitutional) act of civil disobedience. At worst, the protesters should have been arrested one by one. The pepper spray response, kick to her stomach while she's screaming "I'm pregnant, I'm pregnant, let me out!" was unwarranted and a brutally excessive use of force for what legally amounted only to a traffic violation (jaywalking).
The Seattle police is already under investigation for brutality to the poor and minoity communities) by the Federal Department of Justice. They're note exactly known for holding back. Many of them were reported to have made jokes and laughed as they pepper-sprayed Occupiers.
From the article: "A friend called for an ambulance near the community college campus. (Fox says she has been camping with Occupy Seattle since it first began in Westlake Park. She is homeless and says, "I don't have a place. This is the place I call home.") When she arrived at Harborview at 11:00 a.m., she says, a doctor told her that "there was no heartbeat" from the baby. "They diagnosed that I was having a miscarriage. They said the damage was from the kick and that the pepper spray got to it [the fetus], too.""
It's not "looking for trouble" to engage in peaceful, Constitutionally protected rights. It's unthinking and ridiculous in the extreme to focus merely on the fact that a pregnant woman was at the protest---I urge you to look at he reverse: it's not the fact that she was there that's important: it's the fact that a child is dead due to police action and excessive brutality. Placing blame on the mother's shoulder removes the culpability from the police for their actions and I'm appalled that ordinary, normal people would openly be advocating for essentially execution street-justice style at the hands of the local constabulary. .
94
Sorry, but she did not allege she was kicked until now. No mention of it in the days since the incident. And, no doctor on earth would say " the damage was from the kick and that the pepper spray got to it [the fetus], too." That's ridiculous. Damage? What damage? Did the doctor say there was damage to her uterus? Hemorraging? Um, no. And "the pepper spray got to it"? Come on. Without an examination of the fetus out of the uterus, and the amniotic sac, there is no way they could have said this and HMC docs wouldnt say such hogwash. Did she have a D and C? (Very unlikely.) If not, there was no fetus or amniotic sac to examine. She is making it up for attention. My condolences for her loss, if it exists, but her account of what the docs said is just baloney. She's very young.
95
Stupid lack of spelling words. "Note", should be "not exactly known", not just "note exactly known". Typos drive me crazy, personally.
96
@63: "No, but my wife has had 4 miscarriages in the past 2 years."
And how many of those miscarriages were days after she was sprayed in the face with OC and kicked in the stomach?
And how many of those miscarriages were days after she was sprayed in the face with OC and kicked in the stomach?
98
Blocking traffic and the free movement of other citizens is not "peaceful protest". Make your dumb sign and chant your stupid slogans but don't block traffic. I dont give a shit if you are some fucking Jeebus priest faggot or an 80-yr old commie bitch or a pregnant homeless crackhead. Blocking traffic is not "peaceful protest" so fuck you too.
99
@19 - How dare you decide that no one needs to have a baby at 19? Who are you to decide that? I did, and guess what? I now have a Ph.D., and my daughter is completing her senior year of college and applying to graduate school. Her professors anticipate she'll be accepted to Duke University. Someone (I'm a little too peeved at you to go back and look for which # now) was talking about narratives. The dominate narrative about teen mothers is that they are welfare queens who want to have society support them while they have more and more children to get more and more money.
My dissertation deals with an alternative narrative. I interviewed former teen moms who went medical school, majored in chemical engineering, etc. One of them now runs a teen pregnancy prevention program that was recently featured in TIME. The dominant narrative is a lie for many teen moms, but just about everyone in society believes it, hammering down onto the shoulders of every teen mom like it's the gospel truth, like the moment she is pregnant she must fade into oblivion and become a statistic, a failure, a nothing... taking her child along with her. And her child? Well, those with small minds like you would rather see that child dead. Aren't you the humantiarian?
Dominate narratives of the poor are perpetuated by those in power to hold the poor down, and that is a truth that applies to more than teen moms. It's one of the reasons why OWS is now necessary. And if people don't wake up and realize that the corporations running this country would see any one of us dead as quickly as that little innocent fetus who died and not care one iota about it, this country is heading in the direction of the Roman Empire at the speed of sound.
My dissertation deals with an alternative narrative. I interviewed former teen moms who went medical school, majored in chemical engineering, etc. One of them now runs a teen pregnancy prevention program that was recently featured in TIME. The dominant narrative is a lie for many teen moms, but just about everyone in society believes it, hammering down onto the shoulders of every teen mom like it's the gospel truth, like the moment she is pregnant she must fade into oblivion and become a statistic, a failure, a nothing... taking her child along with her. And her child? Well, those with small minds like you would rather see that child dead. Aren't you the humantiarian?
Dominate narratives of the poor are perpetuated by those in power to hold the poor down, and that is a truth that applies to more than teen moms. It's one of the reasons why OWS is now necessary. And if people don't wake up and realize that the corporations running this country would see any one of us dead as quickly as that little innocent fetus who died and not care one iota about it, this country is heading in the direction of the Roman Empire at the speed of sound.
100
Isn't it strange, a 40+ yr old woman gets pregnant with her TWENTIETH child, and the lifers think it's just so quaint and Godly, and TLC gives them a show...nevermind the obvious risks that almost cost baby 19 her life and the mother's as well. THAT'S responsible? How dare you judge this woman as being irresponsible for daring to peacefully protest a cause that could ultimately affect the life of her child while you martyr some woman who has babies for ratings.
101
I can't imagine that a homeless, pregnant woman has very good access to pre-natal health care, nutrition, makes very good lifestyle choices, etc. Good luck proving that lawsuit in court.
102
Most of those blaming the woman for going to the protest and losing her baby as a result are the same ones who would complain if she actually had the baby and needed assistance to raise it.
The first blow, by the account, seems to have been more of an accident. The second? Likely not. The pepper spraY? Really on purpose.
The two blows would not necessarily have left marks, but it doesn't take much at that stage of pregnancy to upset the balance. And, yes, pepper spray could well have caused an issue because it does absorb through membranes (including tear ducts and open sores) and gets in one's mouth and nose, so it could well enter the blood stream . It is designed to harm the person it is sprayed on, so why not the fetus that shares the mother's blood supply?
The first blow, by the account, seems to have been more of an accident. The second? Likely not. The pepper spraY? Really on purpose.
The two blows would not necessarily have left marks, but it doesn't take much at that stage of pregnancy to upset the balance. And, yes, pepper spray could well have caused an issue because it does absorb through membranes (including tear ducts and open sores) and gets in one's mouth and nose, so it could well enter the blood stream . It is designed to harm the person it is sprayed on, so why not the fetus that shares the mother's blood supply?
103
I'm a mom. I've had miscarriages before. Any peaceful protest I went I made sure my child was safe! Because any peaceful peotest can get ugly because of one dumb person
104
@ Eleven, comment 36
Thanks for noticing about the movie. You're the only person to point this out. If people aren't aware of what's called "Predictive Programming," they should be.
Thanks for noticing about the movie. You're the only person to point this out. If people aren't aware of what's called "Predictive Programming," they should be.
105
#101 actually there are plenty of free clinics for homeless mothers and pregnant woman in seattle. the city where i leave. so shove off.
110
@74, @76, @Whoever Else Commented Rudely.
I know her personally. She was indeed pregnant, and now is not.
In addition, she went to the hospital the night she was pepper sprayed and so if there is any documentation about whether she was kicked, sprayed, etc. it is in her medical records. Those will come out eventually, whether in the media or in court (if it goes that route).
I know her personally. She was indeed pregnant, and now is not.
In addition, she went to the hospital the night she was pepper sprayed and so if there is any documentation about whether she was kicked, sprayed, etc. it is in her medical records. Those will come out eventually, whether in the media or in court (if it goes that route).
111
Wow. Just what the country needs: a teenaged, homeless, idiotic soon to be mother who is having a baby BECAUSE her family agreed to help her take care of it. Wonderful. These are the types of people who are serious drains on society. Scum.
112
Is she really "ready for a baby" if she is homeless and actively taking part in protests? Really?
113
@109,
My story was a response to #74: "19 year old homeless girl? Yeah, I'll take my grain of salt now thank you very much."
Because using baseless demographic stereotypes to call someone's credibility into question detracts from the discussion. It's also nasty, ignorant, and uncalled for.
Thanks for asking.
My story was a response to #74: "19 year old homeless girl? Yeah, I'll take my grain of salt now thank you very much."
Because using baseless demographic stereotypes to call someone's credibility into question detracts from the discussion. It's also nasty, ignorant, and uncalled for.
Thanks for asking.
114
Publicus, you're not helping the movement with your rhetoric -- I agree with the poster immediately below you (calling themselves "lies hurt the movement"). This is not a case of disrespecting mothers, or young women who are pregnant, or poor people; the "priest" was not a priest but someone who put on his minister's robes and went down there voluntarily, not on "official duty"; the cops are being stupid, as usual, and not supervised very well, as usual, but they're not trying to execute anyone. Lies do indeed hurt the movement, and I hope this young woman either has actual medical evidence to back up her claims, or stops talking about it. Very premature fetuses don't wait three whole days to abort after a physical/chemical insult, and the HV doc indeed wouldn't have said what she claims.
115
This is exactly how it happened in the movie 'Battle of Seattle' - so.... excuse me while I doubt her credibility. No Mother in her right mind puts her baby in harms' way and that includes hauling her pregnant ass to a protest where common sense will tell you things can turn ugly in a pinch.
116
A blow to the abdomen will not cause a miscarriage. That is an old husband's tale. It only happens on TV.
117
FYI, it's the 3rd picture of her you want to reference, where she's being carried to an ambulance.
And all those who say "She shouldn't have been there", that's an ignorant statement. If it were your wife and child, your sister, your daughter, you'd be sick with rage. A policeman should NEVER of hit and abused a woman.
And all those who say "She shouldn't have been there", that's an ignorant statement. If it were your wife and child, your sister, your daughter, you'd be sick with rage. A policeman should NEVER of hit and abused a woman.
118
#116 tell that to my sister. that's how she lost her baby and she was barely in her second trimester.
119
This is sick. This is really sick. A woman has a right to peacefully protest, has the sense to try and leave the scene when the police show up with unreasonable force, and somehow it's her fault for placing herself in harm's way and losing a child.
Because you protest it's okay if someone kills your child.
The police should not have been using such extraneous force. A protest is protected under Constitutional rights and regardless if the city holds illogically opposite views, they shouldn't be allowed to order their forces around from their offices and the police shouldn't powertrip and get so damn overbearing, dominating and sadistic in their means. One would hope the individual policemen valued freedoms over a job and could empathize, but I guess that's just tribute to how wrong things have developed. The blame is in no way on this poor woman but the police and city who demanded they do such a hideous thing.
The city and force should pay dearly for this, and even if they do, they will never make up for the loss nor the guilt that they've created. They took a life. I pity the men who have to live with knowing that. My dearest condolences to this poor young woman and my hopes that the people who are blaming her and sympathizing with an entire /city council/ over a /lawsuit/ like that's equivalent to the loss of a child-- my hopes that they get a clue.
Because you protest it's okay if someone kills your child.
The police should not have been using such extraneous force. A protest is protected under Constitutional rights and regardless if the city holds illogically opposite views, they shouldn't be allowed to order their forces around from their offices and the police shouldn't powertrip and get so damn overbearing, dominating and sadistic in their means. One would hope the individual policemen valued freedoms over a job and could empathize, but I guess that's just tribute to how wrong things have developed. The blame is in no way on this poor woman but the police and city who demanded they do such a hideous thing.
The city and force should pay dearly for this, and even if they do, they will never make up for the loss nor the guilt that they've created. They took a life. I pity the men who have to live with knowing that. My dearest condolences to this poor young woman and my hopes that the people who are blaming her and sympathizing with an entire /city council/ over a /lawsuit/ like that's equivalent to the loss of a child-- my hopes that they get a clue.
120
@Kinison, who wrote, "Why would a pregnant women take part in a protest that she knew could risk the health of the child? Sounds like a lawsuit the city will have to deal with, assuming the autopsy proves she lost it due to the pepper spray."
Wow--talk about blaming the victim! I really don't think that is the point. Nobody goes to a peaceful protest thinking they are going to be injured by the police. Only in this day and age of Fascist, military police! They didn't need to keep coming at her when she kept telling them she was pregnant. I will guarantee these policemen are, also, "pro-life!"
Wow--talk about blaming the victim! I really don't think that is the point. Nobody goes to a peaceful protest thinking they are going to be injured by the police. Only in this day and age of Fascist, military police! They didn't need to keep coming at her when she kept telling them she was pregnant. I will guarantee these policemen are, also, "pro-life!"
121
This is sick. This is really sick. A woman has a right to peacefully protest, has the sense to try and leave the scene when the police show up with unreasonable force, and somehow it's her fault for placing herself in harm's way and losing a child.
Because you protest it's okay if someone kills your child.
The police should not have been using such extraneous force. A protest is protected under Constitutional rights and regardless if the city holds illogically opposite views, they shouldn't be allowed to order their forces around from their offices and the police shouldn't powertrip and get so damn overbearing, dominating and sadistic in their means. One would hope the individual policemen valued freedoms over a job and could empathize, but I guess that's just tribute to how wrong things have developed. The blame is in no way on this poor woman but the police and city who demanded they do such a hideous thing.
The city and force should pay dearly for this, and even if they do, they will never make up for the loss nor the guilt that they've created. They took a life. I pity the men who have to live with knowing that. My dearest condolences to this poor young woman and my hopes that the people who are blaming her and sympathizing with an entire /city council/ over a /lawsuit/ like that's equivalent to the loss of a child-- my hopes that they get a clue.
Because you protest it's okay if someone kills your child.
The police should not have been using such extraneous force. A protest is protected under Constitutional rights and regardless if the city holds illogically opposite views, they shouldn't be allowed to order their forces around from their offices and the police shouldn't powertrip and get so damn overbearing, dominating and sadistic in their means. One would hope the individual policemen valued freedoms over a job and could empathize, but I guess that's just tribute to how wrong things have developed. The blame is in no way on this poor woman but the police and city who demanded they do such a hideous thing.
The city and force should pay dearly for this, and even if they do, they will never make up for the loss nor the guilt that they've created. They took a life. I pity the men who have to live with knowing that. My dearest condolences to this poor young woman and my hopes that the people who are blaming her and sympathizing with an entire /city council/ over a /lawsuit/ like that's equivalent to the loss of a child-- my hopes that they get a clue.
123
Way to go to the people that think that are questioning the credibility of the article like that somehow makes it alright that the police were using unreasonable brutality as their methods. Way. To. Go.
125
WOW. Ok. NBC vet here. you know what that means? nuclear, biological and chemical warfare. let me tell you something. pepper spray is largely made from chilli peppers, and the active ingredient in them is capsaicin. capsaicin, in large amounts, has proven lethal many times. it has also caused miscarriages in women. just google the damn thing and i'm sure you'll get entries.
don't be assumptive and ignorant about something you don't know.
don't be assumptive and ignorant about something you don't know.
126
I have th entire incident on video from within the crowd at IowaBoyDave on Youtube. I was standing to the right of where Fox was and panning my camera as the police moved in, forcing the crowd to the sidewalk. Many people got trapped in the crowd because of how rapidly and forcefully the SPD moved in. And then all at once (mostly) there were four vollies of chemical weapons being sprayed over the entire crowd, protesters and the pedestrians who were trapped. This lasted for 5 seconds and then all at once the officers began spraying directly into the crowd...at point blank range with highly charged canisters of chemical weapon. And then a few seconds later, as teh pepper was still flying, th epolice began bashing their bicycles into the people on the sidewalk...and then came more chemical weapon attacks. I have the name and badge number on High Def DV of every SPD officer who was involved directly and indirectly with the attack on citizens. I have the aftermath of the chemical attack, including gthe person who I believe is Ms. Fox. I have footage of the legal observer lying on the ground being assisted by Occupy medics. I have a very small sampling of this footage at my IowaBoyDave youtube site. I need an attorney.
127
It doesn't matter whether she should have been pregnant at 19. She was. It doesn't matter whether or not she was homeless or why. She just was. It doesn't matter why she went to protest or why she's chosen to stay with Occupy at SCCC. She is, and there's nothing anyone can do about it unless they give a whole lot more of a fuck than they say.
Regardless.
What matters is she was attacked during a peaceful protest by police officers. What matters is she was assaulted. What matters is she was pregnant before the assault, and now is not. What matters is that her doctor has confirmed this, and has told her the miscarriage is likely due to the abuse she suffered at the hands of the SPD.
There is nothing else to take from this story other than that the police used excessive force in violation of our right to peacefully assemble and speak freely. The SPD are very likely responsible for the loss of this child, which amounts in the eyes of many to murder. Some won't see it as a death unless the child was born, but to this mother, that three month old fetus had a name. And we will respect that loss.
This child is the first casualty we know of as a result of the police brutality against OWS. It's a little different when people are dying way over there in Egypt as police use violence to attempt quell their protests, but when it happens over here under the dear old red white and blue, well, that's a little close to home. Nobody wants to believe it's possible an authority we are supposed to trust is responsible-- or even capable-- of something as heinous as pepper spraying a pregnant, peaceful protester. But it happened. Look at it. And if you can look Ms. Fox in the face and tell her she deserved it then you are a product of the corruption we will change here in America.
More...
Regardless.
What matters is she was attacked during a peaceful protest by police officers. What matters is she was assaulted. What matters is she was pregnant before the assault, and now is not. What matters is that her doctor has confirmed this, and has told her the miscarriage is likely due to the abuse she suffered at the hands of the SPD.
There is nothing else to take from this story other than that the police used excessive force in violation of our right to peacefully assemble and speak freely. The SPD are very likely responsible for the loss of this child, which amounts in the eyes of many to murder. Some won't see it as a death unless the child was born, but to this mother, that three month old fetus had a name. And we will respect that loss.
This child is the first casualty we know of as a result of the police brutality against OWS. It's a little different when people are dying way over there in Egypt as police use violence to attempt quell their protests, but when it happens over here under the dear old red white and blue, well, that's a little close to home. Nobody wants to believe it's possible an authority we are supposed to trust is responsible-- or even capable-- of something as heinous as pepper spraying a pregnant, peaceful protester. But it happened. Look at it. And if you can look Ms. Fox in the face and tell her she deserved it then you are a product of the corruption we will change here in America.
128
I see that there has been another sexual assault (at least attempted) this time at the SCCC camp. Great environment for a naive, pregnant, homeless teenager. I'll make the blanket statement that anyplace where homeless lunatics and junkies roam unchecked is a terrible place for anyone.
131
#128, I mean no disrespect, but why don't you park your ass on 1st and Pike for three months with nothing but the clothes on your back and see how you feel about the situation then. It's a great environment for naive, self-indulgent pricks to get a taste of the real world. Maybe then you'll see how great the camp at SCCC really is after a few weeks of sleeping on the streets alone.
132
"Fox asked for medical attention—the now-famous photo by Josh Trujillo of her being carried to the ambulance is here (click to the second photo)..."
Actually 3 of 13.
http://www.seattlepi.com/mediaManager/?c…
Actually 3 of 13.
http://www.seattlepi.com/mediaManager/?c…
133
I'm kind of surprised (yet not really) that so many people here are claiming that the police murdered a child.
This was a fetus in its first trimester. If the cops are murderers, then so is every woman who has chosen to have an abortion.
I'll add that as someone who has two children and has also experienced one first trimester miscarriage, there is simply no comparison between a miscarriage and the utter devastation that would come with the loss of a child.
This was a fetus in its first trimester. If the cops are murderers, then so is every woman who has chosen to have an abortion.
I'll add that as someone who has two children and has also experienced one first trimester miscarriage, there is simply no comparison between a miscarriage and the utter devastation that would come with the loss of a child.
134
I have this entirre incident on high-def video. A portion of it can be seen at my IowaBoyDave YouTube site. I was in position to the right of the main crowd facing the police. At once the police forced the crowd to the sidewalk very forcefully, trapping many ordinary pedestrians and protesters alike. Basically at once, as if on command, four Seattle Police Officers began firing chemical weapon to the BACK of th crowd, hitting everyone, including pedestrians. They held if for a few seconds befor elowering the highly charged spray at people in the front, completely enveloping them. As chemical weapon was still being fired and all at once, th ebicycle cops began bashing the protesters with their bicycles, literall hitting them with their bicycles...and then the chemical attack started again and continued for several minutes. I have this all on video. I also have the aftermath, including video of the person I believe is Ms. Fox, screaming as medics attempt to keep her from rubbing her eyes, and pouring the hommade chemical antidote of Maalox and bottled water into her eyes. I also have video of one of the Occupy legal observes on teh ground suffering from the chemical attack. I have it all. This shit is over. I need an attorney.
135
@131 that's ok. I have a job and I stay sober so I can keep it. That's about as real as I like it. Glad to to know you welcome any and all types of homeless human garbage so they can assault your deluded revolutionaries.
136
After seeing the photo of Fox...I have a long video of her screaming. It includes her boyfriend carrying her to safety. It'll be edited and posted at IowaBoyDave on youtube soon.
137
Nobody, pregnant or not, should expect to be assaulted heavily enough to injure their fetus, just for demonstrating. It is the responsibility of the police to handle matters like arresting pregnant women safely and responsibly, especially if she attempted to warn them she was pregnant and was not actively resisting arrest. And I am more than a little suspicious of the motives of anyone who so much as implies she was getting what was coming to her. She was doing NOTHING deserving of such a fate, whether her behavior was strictly legal or illegal.
It scares the hell out of me that anybody could actually see this as somehow the victim's fault, as if people who were violating the law did and should lose all their basic human rights and dignities -- even if they're committing the crime in DEFENSE of those rights and dignities. That's Orwellian, un-American, and damn creepy to see coming out of the mouths of other people.
It scares the hell out of me that anybody could actually see this as somehow the victim's fault, as if people who were violating the law did and should lose all their basic human rights and dignities -- even if they're committing the crime in DEFENSE of those rights and dignities. That's Orwellian, un-American, and damn creepy to see coming out of the mouths of other people.
139
it's extremely easy to miscarry - my friend fell down literally just 6 steps, slipped ever so slightly and miscarried - either way, she was obviously trying to get out of the craziness, it's not her fault that the police acted inappropriately using excessive force
just because someone walks down a dangerous part of the neighborhood doesn't mean they deserve to be raped or robbed - people do it everyday - there were a lot of people at wall st. who were not part of the march who got hurt - this is completely the cops fault because they shouldn't have been using force on peaceful protesters.
just because someone walks down a dangerous part of the neighborhood doesn't mean they deserve to be raped or robbed - people do it everyday - there were a lot of people at wall st. who were not part of the march who got hurt - this is completely the cops fault because they shouldn't have been using force on peaceful protesters.
140
I don't understand any of these replies saying she shouldn't have been to the protest. That's absolutely ridiculous. These protesters are NOT being the violent ones, the cops are, so there's your risk: a risk that SHOULDN'T EVEN BE HAPPENING. All of my sympathies go to this woman and her family.
141
Interesting that Slog selectively left this out of OS coverage.
No sense in letting public safety and real news get in the way of a political purity campaign:
http://today.seattletimes.com/2011/11/po…
Interesting that Slog selectively left this out of OS coverage.
No sense in letting public safety and real news get in the way of a political purity campaign:
http://today.seattletimes.com/2011/11/po…
142
"Just what the country needs: a teenaged, homeless, idiotic soon to be mother who is having a baby BECAUSE her family agreed to help her take care of it. Wonderful."
Yup. Apparently the same family that's taking care of her
Yup. Apparently the same family that's taking care of her
143
#141 Note how it says they don't even know of the suspect is part of Occupy. I highly doubt he is. So if a rape happens in your hometown, does that make you and all the people in that town responsible?
144
Would it be ok if I kicked the crap out of your pregnant sister and sprayed her with pepper spray?
Who would argue it wasent her own fault cuz she was protesting getting my dinner. I'm stocking up on pepper spray cuz I can't get in trubble for assault. Woo hoo what a riot! Zip ties and all. Burn your eyes out. Think I'll combine water boarding with pepper spray. It's ok if your sister stops breathing cuz I know CPR. Were cool right? All leagle?
Who would argue it wasent her own fault cuz she was protesting getting my dinner. I'm stocking up on pepper spray cuz I can't get in trubble for assault. Woo hoo what a riot! Zip ties and all. Burn your eyes out. Think I'll combine water boarding with pepper spray. It's ok if your sister stops breathing cuz I know CPR. Were cool right? All leagle?
145
Tragic and so unnecessary.
I got to know Jennifer while camping at Occupy Seattle. She is always positive and cheerful and she makes everyone she comes in contact with feel good just with her radiant presence. Tirelessly energetic and outgoing she was the driving force that got Occupy Seattle's kitchen organized, up and running. I remember she sat up and waved to us as they were about to load her gurney into the ambulance last Thursday night, after being pepper sprayed.
I got to know Jennifer while camping at Occupy Seattle. She is always positive and cheerful and she makes everyone she comes in contact with feel good just with her radiant presence. Tirelessly energetic and outgoing she was the driving force that got Occupy Seattle's kitchen organized, up and running. I remember she sat up and waved to us as they were about to load her gurney into the ambulance last Thursday night, after being pepper sprayed.
146
wow! record comments? I just want to express myself via a quote on my facebook page:
From a friend that I will call Devin: "pretty savage. and people who think she was taking a risk by going to protest should ponder the fact that protesting is now apparently an acknowledged risk to your health."
From a friend that I will call Devin: "pretty savage. and people who think she was taking a risk by going to protest should ponder the fact that protesting is now apparently an acknowledged risk to your health."
147
The point is: what the f*** is wrong with these cops kicking an unarmed girl in the stomach and hitting her with pepper spray at a peaceful protest? Why should it be risky and dangerous to exercise your Rights to Free Speech and Peaceful Assembly? The Mayor and the Chief of Police should be fired, and the cops who did this should be jailed if this story is accurate.
148
Wait a minute... Why is everyone saying she shouldn't have been protesting if she was pregnant? She should not have been brutalized for peaceably protesting. Why should it be dangerous to peaceably protest?
152
pregnant women have the same goddamn rights as the rest of us. PERIOD!
c'mon! where are your brains, people? you are zombies looking for public brains to eat. focus on the problem...it's not the people. my god. i am so ashamed of people who are like, "oh man. wtf was she thinking?" It is goddamn america! AMERICA! remember us? the freedom people? the people with actual rights? supposedly.
don't call yourself an american if you can't stand up for your partners, people and fellow citizens.
ugh.
c'mon! where are your brains, people? you are zombies looking for public brains to eat. focus on the problem...it's not the people. my god. i am so ashamed of people who are like, "oh man. wtf was she thinking?" It is goddamn america! AMERICA! remember us? the freedom people? the people with actual rights? supposedly.
don't call yourself an american if you can't stand up for your partners, people and fellow citizens.
ugh.
153
@124: thanks for the link about the use of pepper spray from NYPD. On page 5 the document says: "The Patrol Guide prohibits the use of pepper spray against subjects who passively resist
(e.g., going limp, offering no active physical resistance). It further cautions that if possible,
pepper spray should not be used against persons who appear to be in frail health, young children, women believed to be pregnant, or persons with known respiratory conditions." I wonder if the manual for SPD read the same.
Also, for all you trolls claiming there's no way to know if pepper spray caused the miscarriage, bear in mind that experiments on pregnant women likely have not been done. The fact that the effects are unknown make it unsafe to use. However, one common brand (page 4 of the document in #124's link) of pepper spray: features a 10% solution of oleoresin capsicum, carried in a solution principally composed of water, antifreeze, and denatured alcohol." Wait a minute. Antifreeze. That stuff is toxic. Now imagine it's been aerosolized and shot into the lungs of a pregnant woman. The levels of antifreeze are probably not toxic to healthy adults, but it doesn't take much imagination to realize what it will probably do to a fetus.
(e.g., going limp, offering no active physical resistance). It further cautions that if possible,
pepper spray should not be used against persons who appear to be in frail health, young children, women believed to be pregnant, or persons with known respiratory conditions." I wonder if the manual for SPD read the same.
Also, for all you trolls claiming there's no way to know if pepper spray caused the miscarriage, bear in mind that experiments on pregnant women likely have not been done. The fact that the effects are unknown make it unsafe to use. However, one common brand (page 4 of the document in #124's link) of pepper spray: features a 10% solution of oleoresin capsicum, carried in a solution principally composed of water, antifreeze, and denatured alcohol." Wait a minute. Antifreeze. That stuff is toxic. Now imagine it's been aerosolized and shot into the lungs of a pregnant woman. The levels of antifreeze are probably not toxic to healthy adults, but it doesn't take much imagination to realize what it will probably do to a fetus.
154
@124: thanks for the link about the use of pepper spray from NYPD. On page 5 the document says: "The Patrol Guide prohibits the use of pepper spray against subjects who passively resist
(e.g., going limp, offering no active physical resistance). It further cautions that if possible,
pepper spray should not be used against persons who appear to be in frail health, young children, women believed to be pregnant, or persons with known respiratory conditions." I wonder if the manual for SPD read the same.
Also, for all you trolls claiming there's no way to know if pepper spray caused the miscarriage, bear in mind that experiments on pregnant women likely have not been done. The fact that the effects are unknown make it unsafe to use. However, one common brand (page 4 of the document in #124's link) of pepper spray: features a 10% solution of oleoresin capsicum, carried in a solution principally composed of water, antifreeze, and denatured alcohol." Wait a minute. Antifreeze. That stuff is toxic. Now imagine it's been aerosolized and shot into the lungs of a pregnant woman. The levels of antifreeze are probably not toxic to healthy adults, but it doesn't take much imagination to realize what it will probably do to a fetus.
(e.g., going limp, offering no active physical resistance). It further cautions that if possible,
pepper spray should not be used against persons who appear to be in frail health, young children, women believed to be pregnant, or persons with known respiratory conditions." I wonder if the manual for SPD read the same.
Also, for all you trolls claiming there's no way to know if pepper spray caused the miscarriage, bear in mind that experiments on pregnant women likely have not been done. The fact that the effects are unknown make it unsafe to use. However, one common brand (page 4 of the document in #124's link) of pepper spray: features a 10% solution of oleoresin capsicum, carried in a solution principally composed of water, antifreeze, and denatured alcohol." Wait a minute. Antifreeze. That stuff is toxic. Now imagine it's been aerosolized and shot into the lungs of a pregnant woman. The levels of antifreeze are probably not toxic to healthy adults, but it doesn't take much imagination to realize what it will probably do to a fetus.
155
Wait a minute.. Some of you are saying she shouldn't be protesting if she was pregnant? Shouldn't it be safe to peaceably protest? This is America, right? Why should you expect violence while protesting?
156
I will try my hardest to make this fair, and I do realize it probably wont be because everyone leans to one side it it will become quite apparent which side it is, but i will try. Before anybody gets aggressive or thinks I'm a fascist, a dick, or destined am for hell please read this thoroughly and then try to have an actually discussion and not insults.
First off everybody saying she was participating in a peaceful protest, have you ever heard of a protest that planned to be violent no because that's not a protest anymore, secondly protests have been proven to be dangerous there is always some dumbass whether they are police or a protester that screws everything up for the people who are there to protest peacefully. Now to address the statement where Ms. Fox claims that she yelled "I'm pregnant I'm pregnant I'm trying to get out" I don't know if that is a correct quotation,but nonetheless i highly doubt any police officer thought i should kick this woman in the stomach and then pepper spray her because she is pregnant. Now before you get angry I'm no doctor so I'm not gonna argue the miscarriage may have been caused by the supposed beating and mace if you will. Let the people who obviously have M.D.s discuss this, yes I'm talking to you on both sides of the argument. To claim that people are blaming the victims is just sad honestly, nobody who commented here that isn't an obvious troll (ex. somebody who likes to see people get mad, not complete definition but works for this discussion) claims that the woman is at fault she didn't know she was going to be beaten, they are just questioning whether it was the best decision to go to place notorious for becoming violent as a pregnant women. YES she has the right to go, YES she can want a better world for her child, YES she can... fill in the blank with whatever you may say its still dangerous at protests and everybody knows this its not secret. Now I'm trying to address too many points so i will leave with this, this is an atrocity in many ways and no I'm not going to say my heart goes out to her because lets face it, it doesn't i don't know the joy of know a child is on the way nor do i know the joy of having a child honestly I'm just going to stick with what we pick up from the facts and will follow this story closely. I will say this is obviously a major loss for Ms. Fox I do hope she can recover from this tragedy. I may have made mistakes or worded something improperly so feel free to ask for clarifications, or just to argue a point.
More...
First off everybody saying she was participating in a peaceful protest, have you ever heard of a protest that planned to be violent no because that's not a protest anymore, secondly protests have been proven to be dangerous there is always some dumbass whether they are police or a protester that screws everything up for the people who are there to protest peacefully. Now to address the statement where Ms. Fox claims that she yelled "I'm pregnant I'm pregnant I'm trying to get out" I don't know if that is a correct quotation,but nonetheless i highly doubt any police officer thought i should kick this woman in the stomach and then pepper spray her because she is pregnant. Now before you get angry I'm no doctor so I'm not gonna argue the miscarriage may have been caused by the supposed beating and mace if you will. Let the people who obviously have M.D.s discuss this, yes I'm talking to you on both sides of the argument. To claim that people are blaming the victims is just sad honestly, nobody who commented here that isn't an obvious troll (ex. somebody who likes to see people get mad, not complete definition but works for this discussion) claims that the woman is at fault she didn't know she was going to be beaten, they are just questioning whether it was the best decision to go to place notorious for becoming violent as a pregnant women. YES she has the right to go, YES she can want a better world for her child, YES she can... fill in the blank with whatever you may say its still dangerous at protests and everybody knows this its not secret. Now I'm trying to address too many points so i will leave with this, this is an atrocity in many ways and no I'm not going to say my heart goes out to her because lets face it, it doesn't i don't know the joy of know a child is on the way nor do i know the joy of having a child honestly I'm just going to stick with what we pick up from the facts and will follow this story closely. I will say this is obviously a major loss for Ms. Fox I do hope she can recover from this tragedy. I may have made mistakes or worded something improperly so feel free to ask for clarifications, or just to argue a point.
157
The problem is, pregnant women shouldn't be allowed to do the same things other, non-pregnant Americans can do. They certainly shouldn't be allowed to go outside or stand up for what they believe in or expect the police to treat them fairly and as US citizens. Obviously they shouldn't expect cops, of all people, to serve and protect their constitutional rights. If they happen to go outside and get kicked in the abdomen or pepper-sprayed in the face, hey, they were pretty much asking for it. They should go back home, or wherever, and keep their mouths shut and do as they're told. Same goes for students at any of the UC school, and anyone who lives in Oakland.
158
People say it is irresponsible of her to risk her baby, but she is homeless and was living in the occupy camp. How exactly was she supposed to avoid that? By not being poor? A lot of help that does her now. Still the point is that a citizen who is not breaking any law and is peacefully assembled/exercising her rights should not expect a beat down from the cops (especially if she was trying to get out of the crowd and actively crying for help). The cops shouldn't use excessive force unless it is ABSOLUTELY necessary, these are not criminals/terrorists, they are just people.
160
Never mind the senseless, unprovoked violence.
Never mind the breaches in protocol and defiling of constitutional rights.
Obviously this pregnant woman was a poor hippie who didn't know better.
Move along Citizen.
>.
Never mind the breaches in protocol and defiling of constitutional rights.
Obviously this pregnant woman was a poor hippie who didn't know better.
Move along Citizen.
>.
161
There are so many heartless people on here.
1. There is a huge difference between an abortion and a miscarriage.
2. It was a peaceful protest. There should never have been any risk for her to be there.
3. When it became apparent there was a risk, and she had the good sense to get the fuck out of dodge, she should've been allowed to leave.
4. The police shouldn't have used such unnecessary force. The government shouldn't be training the cops to get off on such violence - violence should ONLY be used against civilians if the civilians are endangering the lives of other civilians. ANY OTHER SITUATION where the police use violence is unacceptable and evil.
My heart goes out to this poor woman. She is a victim here - first a victim of our economy, and then a victim of POLICE BRUTALITY, and deserves nothing but kind words and support from the american people. We shouldn't be blaming her! We should be rising up against the corruption, sadism and evil that has obviously infected our once-noble police system.
Of course, those of you who are blaming her probably don't have the balls to stand up for what you believe in, to make this a better world for your children, or to take a face-full of pepper spray just for exercising your rights as an American citizen.
1. There is a huge difference between an abortion and a miscarriage.
2. It was a peaceful protest. There should never have been any risk for her to be there.
3. When it became apparent there was a risk, and she had the good sense to get the fuck out of dodge, she should've been allowed to leave.
4. The police shouldn't have used such unnecessary force. The government shouldn't be training the cops to get off on such violence - violence should ONLY be used against civilians if the civilians are endangering the lives of other civilians. ANY OTHER SITUATION where the police use violence is unacceptable and evil.
My heart goes out to this poor woman. She is a victim here - first a victim of our economy, and then a victim of POLICE BRUTALITY, and deserves nothing but kind words and support from the american people. We shouldn't be blaming her! We should be rising up against the corruption, sadism and evil that has obviously infected our once-noble police system.
Of course, those of you who are blaming her probably don't have the balls to stand up for what you believe in, to make this a better world for your children, or to take a face-full of pepper spray just for exercising your rights as an American citizen.
162
Wow, way to blame the victim. Amazing how many people here demonize the would-be mother. So you're glad she lost the baby?
163
@143
The point isn't whether the suspect is "part of" (subjective) Occupy.
It happened IN an Occupy tent, ON the grounds of the Occupy camp, DURING the day, witnessed BY an Occupy participant.
And yet – Slog – which covers all things Occupy, doesn't appear to have covered what was reported to be a significant sexual assault. What would motivate their decision to hide a sexual assault from readers?
The point isn't whether the suspect is "part of" (subjective) Occupy.
It happened IN an Occupy tent, ON the grounds of the Occupy camp, DURING the day, witnessed BY an Occupy participant.
And yet – Slog – which covers all things Occupy, doesn't appear to have covered what was reported to be a significant sexual assault. What would motivate their decision to hide a sexual assault from readers?
164
Getting knocked up when you are 19, unemployed and homeless certainly isn't grounds for sainthood. If she did get kicked by a cop, that sucks - but it isn't any worse than any other woman being kicked by a cop.
Considering her age and living situation, losing that baby was probably the best thing that could have happened to her.
Considering her age and living situation, losing that baby was probably the best thing that could have happened to her.
165
@163- Yes, Slog has the power to hide things from their readers. That's why they deleted all your posts about this and came in to my house and took my TV away and blocked all the non-Slog websites from my home and work computers. Slog is all powerful like that.
It happened IN Seattle, ON the grounds of a Seattle institution, DURING the day, witnessed BY a Seattle resident! Seattle is clearly dangerous and should be removed.
It happened IN Seattle, ON the grounds of a Seattle institution, DURING the day, witnessed BY a Seattle resident! Seattle is clearly dangerous and should be removed.
166
Alcoholism and Drug Abuse is rampant among the Seattle homeless population, and they can cause a miscarriage as well. You have to consider all angles. Unfortunately, including this one.
167
The police did use excessive force, but no responsible woman would have been down there in the first place if she was pregnant. The police were lined up with their riot gear telling the people blocking the intersection to move. I'm not even pregnant, and I wouldn't feel physically safe in that situation. My husband had specifically warned me to stay a safe distance away from the demonstration on my way to class that night out of concern for my safety. In a perfect world, police would never use excessive force on people exercising their constitutional rights. We don't live in a perfect world, and if you're mature enough to want a baby, you should be mature enough to realize that.
168
I am not allergic to many substances, but I am extremely sensitive to capsaicin. Here is an excellent summary from the great article that #39 has a link to: "Research tells us that pepper spray acts as a potent inflammatory agent. It amplifies allergic sensitivities, it irritates and damages eyes, membranes, bronchial airways, the stomach lining – basically what it touches. It works by causing pain – and, as we know, pain is the body warning us of an injury."
I conclude that if the placenta is an extension of the skin in mammals - then its irritation may cause miscarriage, and the young homeless woman in Seattle is right about it. Capsaicin pepper is a South American plant - an anthropologist could tell us if it was used to cause a wanted miscarriage in the past. Indigenous women of the Americas were very knowledgeable about the ways in order to space small babies about one every 4 years. This knowledge help prevent infanticide.
So I think a preventive remedy for Occupiers would be to use and have available any anti-allergic products that contain antihistamine H1 and H2 . The latter are used in some newer stomach anti-acid tablets. Read your labels and contents, you will find them in a pharmacy OTC. I am not optimistic about the use of force by the police in the future.
I am very very sorry Ms. Fox you lost your Miracle. Try for another. Be strong and do not get depressed. Fight for your case and win it. Get an intelligent lawyer. Bless you. I lived in Seattle many years and left some part of my heart there forever.
I conclude that if the placenta is an extension of the skin in mammals - then its irritation may cause miscarriage, and the young homeless woman in Seattle is right about it. Capsaicin pepper is a South American plant - an anthropologist could tell us if it was used to cause a wanted miscarriage in the past. Indigenous women of the Americas were very knowledgeable about the ways in order to space small babies about one every 4 years. This knowledge help prevent infanticide.
So I think a preventive remedy for Occupiers would be to use and have available any anti-allergic products that contain antihistamine H1 and H2 . The latter are used in some newer stomach anti-acid tablets. Read your labels and contents, you will find them in a pharmacy OTC. I am not optimistic about the use of force by the police in the future.
I am very very sorry Ms. Fox you lost your Miracle. Try for another. Be strong and do not get depressed. Fight for your case and win it. Get an intelligent lawyer. Bless you. I lived in Seattle many years and left some part of my heart there forever.
170
@165
A media only interested in content that serves to reinforce the predisposed beliefs of its majority viewer/reader.
Oh wait... isn't that what we accuse Fox News of doing?
Nice.
A media only interested in content that serves to reinforce the predisposed beliefs of its majority viewer/reader.
Oh wait... isn't that what we accuse Fox News of doing?
Nice.
171
The police are supposed to arrest people they think are breaking the law, not assault them. They had no reason to pepper spray people who weren't hurting anyone. A pregnant woman has just as much right to protected free speech as anyone. Fuck most of you, you judgmental pricks.
172
This comment is for Amanda:
You know absolutely nothing about anything and this is clear from your useless and uninformed comments. It is obvious that you have no first hand account of the issue at hand. You are NOT an expert on making right choices. Whether or not the miscarriage was caused by police (and I don't think it was) Who the fuck died and made you some high, mighty and superior judge of people. Go to hell slut.
You know absolutely nothing about anything and this is clear from your useless and uninformed comments. It is obvious that you have no first hand account of the issue at hand. You are NOT an expert on making right choices. Whether or not the miscarriage was caused by police (and I don't think it was) Who the fuck died and made you some high, mighty and superior judge of people. Go to hell slut.
173
This comment is for Amanda:
You know absolutely nothing about anything and this is clear from your useless and uninformed comments. It is obvious that you have no first hand account of the issue at hand. You are NOT an expert on making right choices. Whether or not the miscarriage was caused by police (and I don't think it was) Who the fuck died and made you some high, mighty and superior judge of people. Go to hell slut.
You know absolutely nothing about anything and this is clear from your useless and uninformed comments. It is obvious that you have no first hand account of the issue at hand. You are NOT an expert on making right choices. Whether or not the miscarriage was caused by police (and I don't think it was) Who the fuck died and made you some high, mighty and superior judge of people. Go to hell slut.
175
Oh, good lord, I look at these comments and I think America is filled with stupid people, regardless of party affiliation.
Yes, the woman had a right to protest, pregnant and all. Geez, this is not the Victorian age where women are on bedrest from the time they find out to the time they give birth,
What she and other Seattle occupiers didn't have the right to do was disrupt everybody else's day by protesting IN THE STREET and defying lawful police orders to move to the sidewalk.
Occupiers think that every Constitutional right applies everywhere (expect at Tea Parties), which puts them exactly on par with the ignorance on display via the Tea Party; they didn't understand the Constitution either. You can peaceably assemble and you can protest, but you can't do it anywhere you want, and you can't impinge on the rights of others to freely move about when you do it.
Finally, both sides need to quit exploiting women to make their points. OWS only seems to care about women when they can use them to make a case in the context of their larger protest; in short, when they can be construed as victims. Otherwise, it's all, "Let them be raped." Fuck all that noise.
Yes, the woman had a right to protest, pregnant and all. Geez, this is not the Victorian age where women are on bedrest from the time they find out to the time they give birth,
What she and other Seattle occupiers didn't have the right to do was disrupt everybody else's day by protesting IN THE STREET and defying lawful police orders to move to the sidewalk.
Occupiers think that every Constitutional right applies everywhere (expect at Tea Parties), which puts them exactly on par with the ignorance on display via the Tea Party; they didn't understand the Constitution either. You can peaceably assemble and you can protest, but you can't do it anywhere you want, and you can't impinge on the rights of others to freely move about when you do it.
Finally, both sides need to quit exploiting women to make their points. OWS only seems to care about women when they can use them to make a case in the context of their larger protest; in short, when they can be construed as victims. Otherwise, it's all, "Let them be raped." Fuck all that noise.
176
Oh, good lord, I look at these comments and I think America is filled with stupid people, regardless of party affiliation.
Yes, the woman had a right to protest, pregnant and all. Geez, this is not the Victorian age where women are on bedrest from the time they find out to the time they give birth,
What she and other Seattle occupiers didn't have the right to do was disrupt everybody else's day by protesting IN THE STREET and defying lawful police orders to move to the sidewalk.
Occupiers think that every Constitutional right applies everywhere (expect at Tea Parties), which puts them exactly on par with the ignorance on display via the Tea Party; they didn't understand the Constitution either. You can peaceably assemble and you can protest, but you can't do it anywhere you want, and you can't impinge on the rights of others to freely move about when you do it.
Finally, both sides need to quit exploiting women to make their points. OWS only seems to care about women when they can use them to make a case in the context of their larger protest; in short, when they can be construed as victims. Otherwise, it's all, "Let them be raped." Fuck all that noise.
Yes, the woman had a right to protest, pregnant and all. Geez, this is not the Victorian age where women are on bedrest from the time they find out to the time they give birth,
What she and other Seattle occupiers didn't have the right to do was disrupt everybody else's day by protesting IN THE STREET and defying lawful police orders to move to the sidewalk.
Occupiers think that every Constitutional right applies everywhere (expect at Tea Parties), which puts them exactly on par with the ignorance on display via the Tea Party; they didn't understand the Constitution either. You can peaceably assemble and you can protest, but you can't do it anywhere you want, and you can't impinge on the rights of others to freely move about when you do it.
Finally, both sides need to quit exploiting women to make their points. OWS only seems to care about women when they can use them to make a case in the context of their larger protest; in short, when they can be construed as victims. Otherwise, it's all, "Let them be raped." Fuck all that noise.
177
Yes she had the right to be protesting, however as the news of violence occurring in many Occupy camps would you not think to remove yourself in precaution to keep your little fetus away from potential harm? Doesn't make sense to me. As well as, if her parents are willing to support the baby, why are they leaving her homeless? Do you not generally think support and a roof over your head go hand in hand when you're dealing with a homeless person? I personally have the opinion that homeless people should not get pregnant as well. Bitch at me all you want, but honestly, if you cannot even support yourself what makes you think you can provide for this child properly to give it a good life? A real mother would want to get herself out of such a situation before even considering having a child.
However it is quite sad for her if it's true, and such force should never have been used by the police. It is unlawful and a disgrace to the name of the United States.
However it is quite sad for her if it's true, and such force should never have been used by the police. It is unlawful and a disgrace to the name of the United States.
178
Um. Didn't anyone read the article? She's saying she was hit in the stomach twice. We're not just talking about pepper spray here.
180
I support the Occupy movement, and I helped lead one and will again. But this article is super stupid. just plain stupid. Delete it please.
181
Sorry but she would have been a awful mother anyways. Who the fuck goes to a protest pregnant that has hundreds of screaming loons who were deliberately harassing the police for no reason.. Sorry to say but she should be tried for murder.
182
Chances of finding out the sex of fetus in the third month, low, most women usually find out the sex of fetus around/in the fourth month.
183
@133 I think we can safely assume that the people calling the SPD 'murders' are engaging in a bit of hyperbole. A miscarriage isn't as great a personal tragedy as the death of a child, but it's still a pretty bad.
184
@Amands, nr.3: Why would the police beat up a pregnant woman in the first place? Cops are there to protect the protesters and not beat them and pepper spray them.
Only time you use pepper spray is if the demonstrations are violent like destroying property, vehicles, throwing Molotov cocktails and rocks at police, etc...
Only time you use pepper spray is if the demonstrations are violent like destroying property, vehicles, throwing Molotov cocktails and rocks at police, etc...
185
I don't think the police should be employing so much violence against people.
Also, saying that a pregnant woman going to a protest is the same as a pregnant woman drinking and smoking is a false analogy. In the latter case, the woman is potentially harming the baby *herself*. In the former case, *other people* are doing the harm.
I see no reason that the police should be using so much violence.
That said, we really don't need anymore humans in this world. Overpopulation is a problem as it is. Why do people feel that they need to have kids? Completely pointless. The least they could do is adopt one.
Also, saying that a pregnant woman going to a protest is the same as a pregnant woman drinking and smoking is a false analogy. In the latter case, the woman is potentially harming the baby *herself*. In the former case, *other people* are doing the harm.
I see no reason that the police should be using so much violence.
That said, we really don't need anymore humans in this world. Overpopulation is a problem as it is. Why do people feel that they need to have kids? Completely pointless. The least they could do is adopt one.
186
I have no sympathy for pregnant teens that want to protest... If anyone goes to jail it should be this girl for being a moron.
187
@ 116, tell that to my mother who lost her first child to being kicked in the stomach by her husband who didn't want a child yet. Ignorant. Take a health course or something, please.
188
@ 99. Interesting dissertation. I was a teen mom myself. In some ways of course I wasn't ready, but then again I know 40 year olds who aren't ready. I was given some of the worst advice ever by my high school nurse, she advised me to drop out of school so I wouldn't be a bad influence on younger girls. I just looked at her and asked, "Are you trying to make me a statistic? What do you suggest, I quit school and go on welfare so you can support your idea that that's what young mothers do?" I left her office and never went back. Ridiculous. I am not rich, at times I've even been dirt poor, but I do ok. I raised three sons of whom I am incredibly proud. There are lots of reasons girls get pregnant at a young age, least common is a desire to turn out a bunch of kids so they can get a welfare check. For those that I knew when I was a young mom, myself included, we were mostly from strict religious homes where we got no education on birth control and plenty of messages that a dutiful woman was supposed to be a mother and wife. We lacked information and choices not brains. Thanks for your work. The stereo-type has to go.
190
Pictures of Jennifer from that evening.
http://www.demotix.com/news/926678/occup…
contact me through my profile address for use, they are not exclusive.
http://www.demotix.com/news/926678/occup…
contact me through my profile address for use, they are not exclusive.
191
The violence by police against occupy protesters is slowly getting into the media. It is sad that the spotlight is what it takes to end it - pepper spraying people seems to come scarily easily to the police.
It's pretty clear that tense cops just see a mob; the elderly, the pregnant, the former poet laureate of the USA, all get treated wrongly. This needs to stop right now!
It's pretty clear that tense cops just see a mob; the elderly, the pregnant, the former poet laureate of the USA, all get treated wrongly. This needs to stop right now!
192
Is The Stranger the same media outlet that publicized without fact-checking that some poor guy had written on his credit-card receipt that an overweight waitress was fat, when this guy never had done that?
And is The Stranger the same media outlet that, when caught in publicizing this lie, couldn't bring itself to apologize?
And is The Stranger the same media outlet that, when caught in publicizing this lie, couldn't bring itself to apologize?
193
I've seen the video of the pepper spraying, (No one was specifically targeted. The spray was applied in sweeping motion, across the entire crowd.) while it was probably to much for the situation at hand, so far there is evidence to show that the woman was actually pregnant, that she was struck or kicked, or that she subsequently lost the claimed pregnancy as a result. I'm not saying none of it happened, but people are going off the deep end as if an internet blog post was indisputable fact. I hope the young woman would not lie about such things. If it's true, it's truly a horrible thing, but if she's lying, (Remember Ashley Todd, a 20 year old John McCain volunteer, lying about being attacked by a black Obama supporter? Young people, passionate about a cause, can have well meaning intentions, but very bad judgment.) it would very bad for the Occupy movement, a cause I support.
194
One shouldn't have to consider police attacking one, when taking part in a peaceful march in a democratic country. All of you saying she "put her baby at risk," I ask you, are you the kind of people that say a rape victim was "asking for it"? There is something very wrong with a police department that the citizens have to fear. Please remember, this was the day after the city council passed a resolution SUPPORTING the Occupy Movement. This woman had NO reason to believe she would be attacked!
195
Yes, pregnant women have a right to protest. But most people have the foresight to avoid spots known for police brutality. Just as some of us have the foresight to avoid spots known for gang violence or muggings.
196
Pepper spray, if that is what they used rather than CS is relatively harmless. Its active ingredient is capsacian which is taken and distilled from peppers, it the bit in the peppers that gives them their spiciness. If anything would have caused it out side of nature, I would think it would have been the repeated kicks to the gut. Though the cause is questionable it is still a good legal platform to challenge the legality of the utter violence the police have used in the peace expression of our First Amendment rights.
197
PEACEFUL PROTESTING does not equal POLICE BRUTALITY.
This woman obviously did not think that she was putting herself or her child at risk.
And BLAMING THE VICTIM is completely WRONG anyway.
Wake up people.
This woman obviously did not think that she was putting herself or her child at risk.
And BLAMING THE VICTIM is completely WRONG anyway.
Wake up people.
199
My post at 193 should say, "there is no evidence to show that the woman was actually pregnant, that she was struck or kicked, or that she subsequently lost the claimed pregnancy as a result."
200
Of course every woman-hating troll blames her, not the cops, for the fact that the cops kicked her in the stomach after she informed them she was pregnant. We can't hold a male authority figure to account for his totally unnecessary brutal actions, oh no.
201
200, If what Fox alleges actually did happen, then heads should roll, but a blog post is not an indisputable fact. It's only going to hurt the cause if it turns out to be false.
202
I'm in agreence with 194, Why should any Canadian pregnant women(or anybody else for that matter) exspect to be brutalized by the police that are supposidly here to protect her/us?? She has full right to attend ANY peaceful protest without the threat or fear of being brutalized. Anybody on here who believes it was harsh, but understandable that the whole crowd was pepper sprayed obviously has never taken a faceful of pepper spray before. It's scarey to be in chaos and not be able to see and also very painful. I don't believe that ANYBODY should fear exspressing their own opinion or political views. Our people that are supporting The Occupy Movement are mostly all peaceful people just trying to be heard as it is us who will suffer the consquences if not heard. Only the police make this an unpeacful process which it doesn't need to be! Unfortunately when the police continuously approach these people so heavy handedly, it causes anger fr the normally peacful! Just sayin:)
203
Funny how the naive white credulous hacks at slog believe this BS story (like they believed Victoria Liss) and publicize this crap, yet they still haven't mentioned the attack on Danny Vega.
Why are you reality-ignoring naive white-guilt Libtards at Slog still ignoring the gay-bashing / racist hate crime that was committed against hair stylist Danny Vega? He was almost killed.
I guess it just doesnt fit your "progressive advocacy journalism" agenda to report on racist anti-gay attacks committed by packs of blacks.
Why are you reality-ignoring naive white-guilt Libtards at Slog still ignoring the gay-bashing / racist hate crime that was committed against hair stylist Danny Vega? He was almost killed.
I guess it just doesnt fit your "progressive advocacy journalism" agenda to report on racist anti-gay attacks committed by packs of blacks.
205
@200
"Of course every woman-hating troll blames her,"
Yeah that's totally the issue here. Your insight is deep and rich.
"Of course every woman-hating troll blames her,"
Yeah that's totally the issue here. Your insight is deep and rich.
206
It seems important to reiterate the actual facts, which seem to be entirely lost in the entirely separate "she should/shouldn't have been there argument."
1. She was in her first trimester. 10 to 25% of all pregnancies end in miscarriage, most of them in the first 13 weeks. Even the most healthy woman in the world has about a 20% chance of miscarrying.
2. She was homeless, a situation associated with any number of risk factors without even taking into consideration where she was or what she was doing.
3. In the first trimester there would be absolutely no way for an observer to tell she was pregnant.
4. Making no moral judgement about her behavior, it was clearly a dangerous place to be. The fact that it SHOULDN'T have been does not change the truth that Occupy protests have been met with violence.
5. Unless they did an autopsy on the fetus that shows a fatal chemical reaction that resulted from being pepper-sprayed at the protest, there will never be any proof that her treatment resulted in the miscarriage, rather than any other number of factors. That is particularly true given the 5 day span between the protest/pepper spraying and the miscarriage.
It's tragic, and I'm sure it was an emotional loss for this woman. But at this point, with the information we've been given, there's very little to indicate the cause of the miscarriage, and the (pretty lousy) reporting that's been done on it has done little but inflame emotions and stir up conflict that doesn't seem to serve much purpose.
1. She was in her first trimester. 10 to 25% of all pregnancies end in miscarriage, most of them in the first 13 weeks. Even the most healthy woman in the world has about a 20% chance of miscarrying.
2. She was homeless, a situation associated with any number of risk factors without even taking into consideration where she was or what she was doing.
3. In the first trimester there would be absolutely no way for an observer to tell she was pregnant.
4. Making no moral judgement about her behavior, it was clearly a dangerous place to be. The fact that it SHOULDN'T have been does not change the truth that Occupy protests have been met with violence.
5. Unless they did an autopsy on the fetus that shows a fatal chemical reaction that resulted from being pepper-sprayed at the protest, there will never be any proof that her treatment resulted in the miscarriage, rather than any other number of factors. That is particularly true given the 5 day span between the protest/pepper spraying and the miscarriage.
It's tragic, and I'm sure it was an emotional loss for this woman. But at this point, with the information we've been given, there's very little to indicate the cause of the miscarriage, and the (pretty lousy) reporting that's been done on it has done little but inflame emotions and stir up conflict that doesn't seem to serve much purpose.
207
206, to add, there's been no evidence put forth to show that she was really pregnant in the first place. Nor has any been provided that she was actually kicked. She probably was pepper sprayed as it appears she was in the crowd at the time, but there's been nothing to show that it resulted in a miscarriage. If she what she says is true, she only need to sign a release to get her medical records, and ultrasound images. She can give permission for release them to the press. I hope she's not lying, as it would be disastrous PR for the Occupy movement. Fox News, and every right wing pundit will have a hay day using it to discredit the whole group.
209
pepper spray is tough but all the meth she takes while turning tricks in the camp couldn't help matters....
210
Settle the fuck down and listen to 206 and 207, people. Evidence is key to this delicate situation, not sensationalism.
211
The link is wrong - it goes to the picture of 84-year old Dorli Rainey. The correct link is here: http://www.seattlepi.com/local/gallery/O…
212
Before everyone keeps jumping up and down can we get proof:
That she was actually pregnant?
That she was actually kicked while being sprayed? I don't remember any story about her being kicked.
That she actually miscarried?
That the miscarriage was the result of the actions of the police?
It's rather convenient that she says she was pregnant and miscarried because of the police but it's taking a long time to get those records. I bet we never see those records.
That she was actually pregnant?
That she was actually kicked while being sprayed? I don't remember any story about her being kicked.
That she actually miscarried?
That the miscarriage was the result of the actions of the police?
It's rather convenient that she says she was pregnant and miscarried because of the police but it's taking a long time to get those records. I bet we never see those records.
213
she took part in the protest because she didn't expect to be pepper sprayed just for exercising her rights as a citizen. :/.
214
So some scuzzy homeless crusty chick out scamming on the streets, gets banged up by some other scuzzy crusty, finds a camp site that embraces her crusty life, then goes out and joins in a protest with known anarchists who have spent the past two months itching for a fight with the jobs. 2 weeks later she has a miscarriage and starts screaming 'it was the cops!!'. All the hysterics here agree. Normal people realize scuzz-girl is looking for a pay out to help pay for her and her boyfriends continued scuzz-life.
215
I've lived in Seattle for the last 10 years, and I take great pride in the beautiful city of Seattle. I've recently moved to LV and it sucks seeing my beloved Emerald City in the news for this.
First, off if Ms. Fox did have a miscarrige, my condolences. I would like to say the following:
I am a neutral party and let people do what they wanna do. I'm not a doctor, so I can't speculate on the effects of pepper spray. I wasn't there so I can't comment on whether she was truly hit or not. I'm not a judge so where she chooses to live and how she lives it is her own business. There's currently no records public for anyone to determine what really happened. What I do know from looking at all the pictures, and reading all the articles, and having experienced Seattle protests first-hand is the last place and expecting mother should prob go. I agree with all you that said no one should expect violence at a rally or a protest, but if you take a look at Seattle's history of protest's, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that Seattle's protests can go south in a heart beat, for one reason or another-. I agree with Amanda 167-her husband suggested staying near the back and protesting as part but at a distance. If you take a look at some of the pictures, and the articles protesters were "blocking the intersection", You don't need to block an intersection to protest. This is typical Seattle sensationalism of the victims, who chose to put themselves in harm's way by impeding traffic then cry "victim" when they are "attacked" by the police-doing their job. The same police that are called is someone is doing something unjust to you or you need help. If you tell me that every single person got pepper sprayed at the protest, I will have sympathy-but guess what there were lots of people not sprayed, which means there were plenty of safe areas to protest and be out of harm's way. I agree with Amanda 167 once more, if she truly cared about her unborn child, no rally or protest would supersuede the safety of her baby. You don't wanna get burned, stay out of the kitchen.
More...
First, off if Ms. Fox did have a miscarrige, my condolences. I would like to say the following:
I am a neutral party and let people do what they wanna do. I'm not a doctor, so I can't speculate on the effects of pepper spray. I wasn't there so I can't comment on whether she was truly hit or not. I'm not a judge so where she chooses to live and how she lives it is her own business. There's currently no records public for anyone to determine what really happened. What I do know from looking at all the pictures, and reading all the articles, and having experienced Seattle protests first-hand is the last place and expecting mother should prob go. I agree with all you that said no one should expect violence at a rally or a protest, but if you take a look at Seattle's history of protest's, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that Seattle's protests can go south in a heart beat, for one reason or another-. I agree with Amanda 167-her husband suggested staying near the back and protesting as part but at a distance. If you take a look at some of the pictures, and the articles protesters were "blocking the intersection", You don't need to block an intersection to protest. This is typical Seattle sensationalism of the victims, who chose to put themselves in harm's way by impeding traffic then cry "victim" when they are "attacked" by the police-doing their job. The same police that are called is someone is doing something unjust to you or you need help. If you tell me that every single person got pepper sprayed at the protest, I will have sympathy-but guess what there were lots of people not sprayed, which means there were plenty of safe areas to protest and be out of harm's way. I agree with Amanda 167 once more, if she truly cared about her unborn child, no rally or protest would supersuede the safety of her baby. You don't wanna get burned, stay out of the kitchen.
216
@207 I'm guessing she is telling the truth about having been pregnant and then had a miscarriage. I'll bet she was using a bit of poetic license (i.e. telling slanderous lies) when she talked about SPD kicking her in the tummy. Based on the videos we've seen of the incident it's hard to believe any of the demonstrators were kicked or punched by the cops. Also if SPD had kicked or punched anybody I think we would have heard about it by now.
@206 I doubt the spray induced a chemical reaction that caused her to miscarry, but the psychological effects could have contributed to it. Being pepper sprayed can be a traumatic experience for the weak minded.
@206 I doubt the spray induced a chemical reaction that caused her to miscarry, but the psychological effects could have contributed to it. Being pepper sprayed can be a traumatic experience for the weak minded.
217
I can kinda see both sides to this whole situation. On the one hand, my sympathy goes out to her for losing her child. Getting hit and sprayed is an awful way to go.
But on the other hand, it's all about common sense, here. I humbly invite the public to point out to me a protest that did not, at some point, turn nasty. If/when I become pregnant, a protest is the last place I would go, no matter what the cause is. And the police almost always turns to brute force when they're not being obeyed - something Fox should have realized before going in. To me, no one is safe in a situation like that. I just hope that something like that doesn't happen again.
But on the other hand, it's all about common sense, here. I humbly invite the public to point out to me a protest that did not, at some point, turn nasty. If/when I become pregnant, a protest is the last place I would go, no matter what the cause is. And the police almost always turns to brute force when they're not being obeyed - something Fox should have realized before going in. To me, no one is safe in a situation like that. I just hope that something like that doesn't happen again.
219
To all you self righteous knuckleheads out there giving this poor woman grief for going to the protest pregnant, I would like to remind you that the 1st amendment gives her the absolute freedom and liberty to peaceably assemble with whomever she damn well pleases. The police unlawfully abridged those rights and killed her baby. Ba mad at the cops who are upholding the unconstitutional whims of the powers that be, not at a fellow citizen trying to make a difference for the rest of you lazy nitwits that are too lazy or complacent to do anything about it.
220
216, I'm not saying she wasn't pregnant. I'm not claiming that she didn't miscarry if she was with child, nor am I denying that she may have been kicked in the stomach by a police officer. All I'm saying is that there's been absolutely no evidence presented to prove these claims. People are reacting to a blog post as if it were indisputable fact. There needs to be some responsible investigative reporting on this before posting sensationalized headlines.
221
@220 Very true. Although I have to say I'm impressed by the number of Slog commenters who aren't overly credulous of a story that validates their left-wing biases. The Fox News audience could learn a thing or two from you guys.
222
What kind of person (dare I say woman?) goes to a hospital, pregnant, after getting maced and supposedly kicked, and walks out without taking any paperwork? Wouldn't a responsible person want to have that paperwork and medical records for future reference, for your next visit? Especially if you're a homeless crusty and don't know which hospital you'll be free loading off next?
Oh that's right, I used the word 'responsible'. Apparently if a person (dare I say woman?) gets pregnant) she should be able to luge, snowboard, mountain climb and go join a bunch of crusties and anarchists to scream at cops without any finger waggling from The Straights.
Oh that's right, I used the word 'responsible'. Apparently if a person (dare I say woman?) gets pregnant) she should be able to luge, snowboard, mountain climb and go join a bunch of crusties and anarchists to scream at cops without any finger waggling from The Straights.
223
19 yr old homeless chick claims to have miscarried due to pepper spray. Believe that and I have a unicorn to sell you.
224
Shirt idea:
SEATTLE COPS WANT TO KILL YOU.
I mean really people, how do any of you feel safe with THIS police department?
SEATTLE COPS WANT TO KILL YOU.
I mean really people, how do any of you feel safe with THIS police department?
225
It is not at all surprising that people camping at SCCC were already homeless. She only joined so she could camp there? I support the cause and that sucks. Since that seemed the obvious result I have never been able to support that camp.
227
My condolences to Jennifer. I feel really bad for her--going through a miscarriage is a miserable loss.
I wanted to chime in to (hopefully) help with some of the speculation that's going on re: whether a kick to the abdomen could injure a fetus at 12 weeks (2-3 months).
I work in obstetrics, so see many women who have been in car accidents, falls, and/or blunt trauma to the abdomen.
First of all, no intelligent practitioner would tell a woman that she had a miscarriage as a direct result of XYZ. If he/she does, then he/she should not be practicing medicine/working as a nurse. Experienced medical practitioners are very savvy about what they do/do not say to patients (read: they are aware that anything they say could be misconstrued and used in a malpractice case). Having worked at Harborview in the past, I find it highly unlikely that one of the docs/nurses would tell a woman that she had a miscarriage as a result of pepper spray and a kick to the stomach.
At 12 weeks gestation, the fetus/uterus is so deep in the pelvis that it is virtually impossible to kick someone in the "stomach" and injure/kill a fetus. You'd have to kick/push down into a woman's pelvis, which is such an unusual angle that it would need to be a pre-meditated event. It isn't until approximately 20 weeks--when the uterus reaches the height of the belly button--that there is a remote possibility of injury (because the fetus is now "out of the pelvis" and no longer fully protected by the pelvis).
Our bodies do a good job of protecting the fetus--fat, pelvic bones, uterine muscle, amniotic fluid. The fetus is really well-cushioned. Because of this, the injury typically does not occur because the fetus was "hit", but because of a trauma to the placenta (placental abruption, where the placenta is partially/completely sheared off of the uterine wall, depriving the fetus of oxygen).
The fetus isn't as well protected from anything that can cross the placenta (which is virtually everything--food, drugs, environmental chemicals).
Unfortunately, as others have said, it is impossible to prove what caused her miscarriage because she was still in the first trimester of her pregnancy. I know she is angry, but dealing with her grief through legal channels will only make her more angry and bitter.
More...
I wanted to chime in to (hopefully) help with some of the speculation that's going on re: whether a kick to the abdomen could injure a fetus at 12 weeks (2-3 months).
I work in obstetrics, so see many women who have been in car accidents, falls, and/or blunt trauma to the abdomen.
First of all, no intelligent practitioner would tell a woman that she had a miscarriage as a direct result of XYZ. If he/she does, then he/she should not be practicing medicine/working as a nurse. Experienced medical practitioners are very savvy about what they do/do not say to patients (read: they are aware that anything they say could be misconstrued and used in a malpractice case). Having worked at Harborview in the past, I find it highly unlikely that one of the docs/nurses would tell a woman that she had a miscarriage as a result of pepper spray and a kick to the stomach.
At 12 weeks gestation, the fetus/uterus is so deep in the pelvis that it is virtually impossible to kick someone in the "stomach" and injure/kill a fetus. You'd have to kick/push down into a woman's pelvis, which is such an unusual angle that it would need to be a pre-meditated event. It isn't until approximately 20 weeks--when the uterus reaches the height of the belly button--that there is a remote possibility of injury (because the fetus is now "out of the pelvis" and no longer fully protected by the pelvis).
Our bodies do a good job of protecting the fetus--fat, pelvic bones, uterine muscle, amniotic fluid. The fetus is really well-cushioned. Because of this, the injury typically does not occur because the fetus was "hit", but because of a trauma to the placenta (placental abruption, where the placenta is partially/completely sheared off of the uterine wall, depriving the fetus of oxygen).
The fetus isn't as well protected from anything that can cross the placenta (which is virtually everything--food, drugs, environmental chemicals).
Unfortunately, as others have said, it is impossible to prove what caused her miscarriage because she was still in the first trimester of her pregnancy. I know she is angry, but dealing with her grief through legal channels will only make her more angry and bitter.
228
You don't expect to get beaten by cops when you go to a protest that is NON-VIOLENT. I'm honestly shocked at all the comments calling this woman irresponsible and blaming her. The police abused their power and this woman. It is disgusting what they did to her, and other occupy members as well.
230
1. I am sorry Jennifer has gone thru what she has.
2. 19 year olds should not be having babies. period. homeless or not. It's stupid.
3. Its going to be impossible to prove the kick happened or that the pepper spray caused the miscarriage rather than the high frequency of first time pregnancies ending in miscarrage.
4. With any luck she can move past this and move on in her life, to include getting an education or training and finding a job.
-----
All that aside
5. Occupy Seattle needs some direction. We have been giving money and supplies to them all along, but I'd like to see some logical direction.
2. 19 year olds should not be having babies. period. homeless or not. It's stupid.
3. Its going to be impossible to prove the kick happened or that the pepper spray caused the miscarriage rather than the high frequency of first time pregnancies ending in miscarrage.
4. With any luck she can move past this and move on in her life, to include getting an education or training and finding a job.
-----
All that aside
5. Occupy Seattle needs some direction. We have been giving money and supplies to them all along, but I'd like to see some logical direction.
231
Wth was she doing there in the first place? These people need to take some responsibility for themselves. They are part of the problem. We all are.
232
229, True, but Slog doesn't claim to be fair and balanced, or a news outlet. Nobody should use Slog as their primary news source.
233
I have a bit of an issue with a few factors of this report. Firstly she claims not to have collected medical records from the hospital. I wouldnt have a clue what its like to love a child in that way but I'm pretty sure that if I had the slightest incling that it was the deliberate fault of someone else I would be doing everything in my power to bring the person to justice. She obviously does think it was deliberate as she is qupted as saying 'I didn't know that a cop would murder a baby that's not born yet'. She follows this up saying she is trying to get lawyers, but that sounds almost as an after thought, as in 'wait a minute, ive just accused this person of murder, better make it look like im trying to prove it'.
This however is totally out of line with what was said earlier where she said something along the lines of it could have been an accident.
Also she states that her family were going to help look after the child when it was born, but at the present time shes still homless. So her family were more than willing to help once she had the child but not giver her a place to stay during the preganacy? Am I really the only one who thinks that sounds really suspicious!
And in a way it is her fault going down to a protest when shes preganant, as bad as it is, and no matter how many people trot out the line about right to freedom of speech and assembly etc. everyone knows what the police can get like. Not just in USA but literally EVERY COUNTRY ON EARTH, including UK, Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, South Africa, Mexico, China, Japan, Russia etc etc so you go to these protests knowing full well what could happen, even if it is a peacful protest.
This however is totally out of line with what was said earlier where she said something along the lines of it could have been an accident.
Also she states that her family were going to help look after the child when it was born, but at the present time shes still homless. So her family were more than willing to help once she had the child but not giver her a place to stay during the preganacy? Am I really the only one who thinks that sounds really suspicious!
And in a way it is her fault going down to a protest when shes preganant, as bad as it is, and no matter how many people trot out the line about right to freedom of speech and assembly etc. everyone knows what the police can get like. Not just in USA but literally EVERY COUNTRY ON EARTH, including UK, Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, South Africa, Mexico, China, Japan, Russia etc etc so you go to these protests knowing full well what could happen, even if it is a peacful protest.
235
" These people need to take some responsibility for themselves."
Well she was there demanding all kinds of gub'ment money for her, her crusty boyfriend and their camp-made spawn. Responsibility is probably not a word that has ever passed across Miss Fox's lips.
Well she was there demanding all kinds of gub'ment money for her, her crusty boyfriend and their camp-made spawn. Responsibility is probably not a word that has ever passed across Miss Fox's lips.
237
"Why would anybody name their child Miracle? That's like a saccharine overstep that turned this whole this sour. Kind of like Kool-aid with 2 cups of sugar too many."
My thought exactly. I was feeling bad until I read that line, then it was just "Okay, now you're trying too hard."
My thought exactly. I was feeling bad until I read that line, then it was just "Okay, now you're trying too hard."
239
Seeing as how a fetus isn't human, she simply got pepper sprayed & expelled some tissue. Women willingly induce miscarriages every day so what's the big deal?
240
@1 and @3 Blaming her for losing her baby because she was at the protest is despicable, yes despicable. Do you condone police attacks against non-violent protesters that are so savge as to possibly kill an unborn child? The possibility of injury during pregnancy is quite common. It does not always lead to miscarriage, the body is designed to protect the fetus. It takes a very violent assault to cause a miscarriage. Most pregnant women fall, or are in traffic accidents and come through unscathed, others mave varying dgrees of complications but by you reasoning, they should not get out of bed or ever get into a car. Georgia and other backward states have attemptd to pass laws which penalize the mother for the loss of her fetus, all are questionable and many have been stayed by courts as unconstitutional.
241
Here's the release of information form needed to get Ms Fox's medical records. Print it, fill it out with her, and accompany her to get them.
http://uwmedicine.washington.edu/Patient…
http://uwmedicine.washington.edu/Patient…
244
What @227 said. Her description of events may be how she remembered/heard them in a stressful time, but I doubt Harborview staff placed definitive blame. I am very sorry for her loss.
245
Being two months pregnant myself, I can understand the complete heartbreak that this woman must be going through. My heart truly goes out to her. This is such a tragedy.
I must also say, that while I believe in the whole occupy movement, you wouldn't catch me at ANY sort of protest now that I am pregnant. I'll do my best to stay far away from any sort of danger (mama bear instincts are kicking in already). Yes the protests are peaceful from the protesters POV, but hasn't she been watching the news? At this point in my life (and my child's) I feel that the safety of my baby takes priority over everything else. It's a shame this poor woman is realizing this too late.
I must also say, that while I believe in the whole occupy movement, you wouldn't catch me at ANY sort of protest now that I am pregnant. I'll do my best to stay far away from any sort of danger (mama bear instincts are kicking in already). Yes the protests are peaceful from the protesters POV, but hasn't she been watching the news? At this point in my life (and my child's) I feel that the safety of my baby takes priority over everything else. It's a shame this poor woman is realizing this too late.
246
I think we need to discuss this more, so that nothing by Dan shows up in Most Commented anymore.
249
This woman is to blame for the miscarriage (assuming that the miscarriage was due to the police rather than just a spontaneous miscarriage or one due to other actions since that event). She chose to be in a confrontational protest and remain until the moment the police started to clear the streets of occupiers intent on preventing people from going about their daily business (let alone any emergency vehicles or vehicles going about the people's business).
Just more propaganda like Dorli's staged photo.
This woman is to blame for the miscarriage (assuming that the miscarriage was due to the police rather than just a spontaneous miscarriage or one due to other actions since that event). She chose to be in a confrontational protest and remain until the moment the police started to clear the streets of occupiers intent on preventing people from going about their daily business (let alone any emergency vehicles or vehicles going about the people's business).
Just more propaganda like Dorli's staged photo.
250
"I didn't know that a cop would murder a baby that's not born yet"
Who knew there were pro-lifers in the Occupy movement. There is a surprise every day.
Who knew there were pro-lifers in the Occupy movement. There is a surprise every day.
251
and once again let me state that yes, pepper spray has been known to cause miscarriages. yes, it can take days. the main ingredient is capsaicin, which has also been known to be lethal. never mind that to even extract it from peppers to be used (in pure form, which it is) requires the person to use a respirator, goggles, gloves, and often a full hazmat suit.
252
On the Occupy movement: Let’s face it- if you’re going to the sort of protest where you’re using your physical presence (your body) as an immovable object for the protest, there are certain inherent risks involved. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t do it (sometimes it makes a perfect statement of your conviction). It also doesn’t mean that police officers should throw ethics to the wind and resort to attacking you. There are however, risks involved, and you have to be prepared for that. If you are prepared to come to bodily harm for your ideals, that is noble. But you must be prepared and unsurprised when that harm occurs. You can fight back, but if you claim that you had no knowledge of the risk, then you diminish the statement you’re making. If protesting were as easy and risk free as taking afternoon tea, nothing would come from it and the passion of your message would be lost.
253
@6-
A few good kicks to the abdominal area could cause a miscarriage at ANY stage of pregnancy. Yes, you're more likely to just miscarry between the 1-3 months, and still have a slight chance in the 4 & 5 month... but genetic problems are NOT the only way you miscarry.
As for the pepper spray, I doubt that would be a factor to it. I know it can get into your system but I don't see that KILLING the baby, perhaps causing some birth defects if it did anything at all.
@230-
The moment a woman turns 18, she should have the choice to have a baby whenever the hell she wants. As long as she's responsible, who gives a crap, she's an ADULT. Seriously? Get off your high horse.
And if the kick did happen? She'll have internal damage or bruising and perhaps a bruise on the skin. So no, not impossible.
Also, she can try to get a job all she wants but it's most likely not gonna happen. Unless you're on the very tip-top of the ladder, jobs are nearly impossible to get or keep. Have you NOTICED the economy, or is it too cloudy up there? Quit looking down your nose at her, you arrogant prick.
NOW.
While I agree she should be able to go fight for her rights- pregnant or not-, it truly isn't safe. One time it could be a non-violent protest and the next one, something like this happens. You never know. It's the world we live in and it's disgusting, but true. I being 5 months pregnant myself right now cannot imagine what she is going through and I am truly sorry for her loss. In certain states once the doctors can actually call the fetus a "baby", it's a murder count should someone intentionally cause harm.
Hopefully everything works out for her, if this is all true. And hopefully no irreversible physical damage was done to her on top of the emotional.
More...
A few good kicks to the abdominal area could cause a miscarriage at ANY stage of pregnancy. Yes, you're more likely to just miscarry between the 1-3 months, and still have a slight chance in the 4 & 5 month... but genetic problems are NOT the only way you miscarry.
As for the pepper spray, I doubt that would be a factor to it. I know it can get into your system but I don't see that KILLING the baby, perhaps causing some birth defects if it did anything at all.
@230-
The moment a woman turns 18, she should have the choice to have a baby whenever the hell she wants. As long as she's responsible, who gives a crap, she's an ADULT. Seriously? Get off your high horse.
And if the kick did happen? She'll have internal damage or bruising and perhaps a bruise on the skin. So no, not impossible.
Also, she can try to get a job all she wants but it's most likely not gonna happen. Unless you're on the very tip-top of the ladder, jobs are nearly impossible to get or keep. Have you NOTICED the economy, or is it too cloudy up there? Quit looking down your nose at her, you arrogant prick.
NOW.
While I agree she should be able to go fight for her rights- pregnant or not-, it truly isn't safe. One time it could be a non-violent protest and the next one, something like this happens. You never know. It's the world we live in and it's disgusting, but true. I being 5 months pregnant myself right now cannot imagine what she is going through and I am truly sorry for her loss. In certain states once the doctors can actually call the fetus a "baby", it's a murder count should someone intentionally cause harm.
Hopefully everything works out for her, if this is all true. And hopefully no irreversible physical damage was done to her on top of the emotional.
254
Because she was homeless and it was a place for shelter. She was protesting and when she saw the police were going to attack, she told them she was pregnant, and wanted out of the crowd. They beat her and sprayed her, and it appears she had a miscarriage. She was a victim, she's 19 and didn't get it what police might do. The guy who got his spleen ruptured, a Vet, didn't think the police would attack him, he was no threat. It only takes one policeman. The 70 something Poet Lauerate was telling the cops not to hurt the protesters. He thought they wouldn't hurt him because he was trying to help them see it was wrong to hurt anyone and no need, but they hurt him.
255
I think that all protests go wrong so why in gods name would you be in one pregnant? And the police aren't that bad when you're asked to move out of the street you should do so as to not block traffic fucking idiots I think she is the one her murdered her child and she is wasting government money by being sue happy moron!
256
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
It seems to me that people should have a reasonable expectation of NOT getting injured during a peaceful demonstration, rather than a reasonable expectation of actually being injured by the police. Does anyone else see the problem here?
It seems to me that people should have a reasonable expectation of NOT getting injured during a peaceful demonstration, rather than a reasonable expectation of actually being injured by the police. Does anyone else see the problem here?
257
@6-
A few good kicks to the abdominal area could cause a miscarriage at ANY stage of pregnancy. Yes, you're more likely to just miscarry between the 1-3 months, and still have a slight chance in the 4 & 5 month... but genetic problems are NOT the only way you miscarry.
As for the pepper spray, I doubt that would be a factor to it. I know it can get into your system but I don't see that KILLING the baby, perhaps causing some birth defects if it did anything at all.
@230-
The moment a woman turns 18, she should have the choice to have a baby whenever the hell she wants. As long as she's responsible, who gives a crap, she's an ADULT. Seriously? Get off your high horse.
And if the kick did happen? She'll have internal damage or bruising and perhaps a bruise on the skin. So no, not impossible.
Also, she can try to get a job all she wants but it's most likely not gonna happen. Unless you're on the very tip-top of the ladder, jobs are nearly impossible to get or keep. Have you NOTICED the economy, or is it too cloudy up there? Quit looking down your nose at her, you arrogant prick.
NOW.
While I agree she should be able to go fight for her rights- pregnant or not-, it truly isn't safe. One time it could be a non-violent protest and the next one, something like this happens. You never know. It's the world we live in and it's disgusting, but true. I being 5 months pregnant myself right now cannot imagine what she is going through and I am truly sorry for her loss. In certain states once the doctors can actually call the fetus a "baby", it's a murder count should someone intentionally cause harm.
Hopefully everything works out for her, if this is all true. And hopefully no irreversible physical damage was done to her on top of the emotional damage.
More...
A few good kicks to the abdominal area could cause a miscarriage at ANY stage of pregnancy. Yes, you're more likely to just miscarry between the 1-3 months, and still have a slight chance in the 4 & 5 month... but genetic problems are NOT the only way you miscarry.
As for the pepper spray, I doubt that would be a factor to it. I know it can get into your system but I don't see that KILLING the baby, perhaps causing some birth defects if it did anything at all.
@230-
The moment a woman turns 18, she should have the choice to have a baby whenever the hell she wants. As long as she's responsible, who gives a crap, she's an ADULT. Seriously? Get off your high horse.
And if the kick did happen? She'll have internal damage or bruising and perhaps a bruise on the skin. So no, not impossible.
Also, she can try to get a job all she wants but it's most likely not gonna happen. Unless you're on the very tip-top of the ladder, jobs are nearly impossible to get or keep. Have you NOTICED the economy, or is it too cloudy up there? Quit looking down your nose at her, you arrogant prick.
NOW.
While I agree she should be able to go fight for her rights- pregnant or not-, it truly isn't safe. One time it could be a non-violent protest and the next one, something like this happens. You never know. It's the world we live in and it's disgusting, but true. I being 5 months pregnant myself right now cannot imagine what she is going through and I am truly sorry for her loss. In certain states once the doctors can actually call the fetus a "baby", it's a murder count should someone intentionally cause harm.
Hopefully everything works out for her, if this is all true. And hopefully no irreversible physical damage was done to her on top of the emotional damage.
258
@126>>Gee, was bike pig TAD WILLOUGHBY among the cops assaulting the crowd? He's KNOWN for assault, harassment, name-calling...very familiar with that pile from when John T. Williams was murdered. He's one of the bike cops that has been leading a small group of bike cops who harass the family wherever they are. When they were at Indian Park, then when they were at the Seattle Center (until you'd put a camera in his face, then he'd take off like the pussy he is), then they'd hide around the corner and photograph everyone hanging out with the carvers. Now that they're on the waterfront, he's doing the same thing, usually with at least two other bikepig buddies. He's since shaved his homo-erotic cop 'stache, hoping we won't recognize him.
260
@252: She was at a peaceful demonstration, up until the police showed up and kicked her in the stomach.
261
I hate the fact that the cops are being dicks. I also hate the fact that OWS is aligning itself with homeless pregnant chicks who want to whine when they lose their baby in a riot which is what some of the OWS events have turned into. Jesus wasn't this girl somehow plugged into what could happen and has been happening around the country? I am sorry I am a mommy. I would never consider having my children near a place where I knew there was an increased potential for injury and If I ended up with my children in a situation where crowd violence was a potential I sure as hell would have an escape plan and stay as far away from the baton carrying bastards as I could. I want to support this cause. I want to get behind it but attempting to make this 19 year old homeless pregnant girl one of the martyrs for the cause is in my humble opinion a mistake. Fox news and just about any other media outlet is going to shred this girl. I am having a hard time not judging her overall decision making capacity myself and I think I am pretty open minded.
262
You can tell the sex of your baby that early. The movement had been peaceful up to this moment so I can see why she didn't think there would be an issue. Even if she had bad judgement it doesn't make it ok for the police officers to do what they did. Just throw our freedom out because you do not agree with message,really foolish.
263
I remember seeing this woman at the protests in Westlake when I wandered thru.
She has a golf ball sized sore on her lip. Part of the crusties gang in OS. She's been there since day one. Apparently she has been at all the other clashes with cops and mace and chose to stay.
Her story? Total bullshit.
She has a golf ball sized sore on her lip. Part of the crusties gang in OS. She's been there since day one. Apparently she has been at all the other clashes with cops and mace and chose to stay.
Her story? Total bullshit.
264
Yes, first trimester miscarriages are fairly common...but hers just HAPPENED to take place after being kicked and pepper-sprayed.
@196>>Let us spray you with pepper spray, and you can tell us how 'harmless' it is. Just because something is derived from a plant source, does not make it harmless. The difference between hot peppers and OC spray is somewhat the difference between poppy pods and heroin.
@196>>Let us spray you with pepper spray, and you can tell us how 'harmless' it is. Just because something is derived from a plant source, does not make it harmless. The difference between hot peppers and OC spray is somewhat the difference between poppy pods and heroin.
265
One phone call I could get a pregnant teenager a room and bed. Of course, there'd be some pesky 'rules'.
266
@262 without genetic testing which no doctor in there right mind would do to a healthy woman, under the age of 35 without insurance you CAN NOT TELL THE SEX of a baby. Before you post you might want to fact check with the popular search engine GOOGLE! I HATE MILITARY STYLED POLICE STATE this country has become but I certainly don't want to raise my kids in a god damned rainbow gathering of a country. Making this woman a Martyr is doing a disservice to the cause of the movement.
267
Police have always been rough with protester, whether that means spraying them with firehoses in the South, or tear gassing thousands at the 68' democratic convention. Protests are a form of civil unrest, and people participating in those kinds of events would be fools to imagine that the police will not harm them. When you are protesting, the police are not your friends. Stay away from them, especially if you are pregnant or in any way concerned with your own safety.
269
@93 Protest all day long, Seattlelites are known for it, but when you start blocking intersections protesting and interferring with traffic-your going to get forcibly removed whether by pepper spray or arrest.
@227 Thank you for being an ACTUAL person who has knowledge on the subject we speak. Kudos!
@233 Great Point about the parents.
@241 LOL
@252 Exactly
@256 see #255
When it comes down to it, it was a group of "peaceful" protesters that were forcibly removed from obstructing traffic. They had all of westlake to protest in and it's their right to protest, they just chose to do it in the street. And whether your by yourself or as a group-whether your protesting or not-you're gonna get moved by the police.
@227 Thank you for being an ACTUAL person who has knowledge on the subject we speak. Kudos!
@233 Great Point about the parents.
@241 LOL
@252 Exactly
@256 see #255
When it comes down to it, it was a group of "peaceful" protesters that were forcibly removed from obstructing traffic. They had all of westlake to protest in and it's their right to protest, they just chose to do it in the street. And whether your by yourself or as a group-whether your protesting or not-you're gonna get moved by the police.
270
According to http://www.womensaid.org.uk/page.asp?sec… Women's Aid domestic violence is the leading cause of miscarriages in the UK. I'm not sure what the stats in the US are, but violence can lead to miscarriages. And while this wasn't domestic violence, the body doesn't make distinctions about who is beating it up.
271
I'm getting some serious Handmaid's Tale vibes from some of you here. *shudder* It's like you think once a woman is pregnant, she should no longer have freedom of movement or self-will, because the fetus somehow belongs to society.
To me, whether or not she was pregnant, whether she was homeless, all of that is irrelevant. What is relevant is that apparently some people think it's okay for the cops to use potentially-deadly force to move peaceful protestors out of the street. Um, Tiananmen Square is a few thousand miles thataway. --->>>
To me, whether or not she was pregnant, whether she was homeless, all of that is irrelevant. What is relevant is that apparently some people think it's okay for the cops to use potentially-deadly force to move peaceful protestors out of the street. Um, Tiananmen Square is a few thousand miles thataway. --->>>
272
Fuck Seattle and fuck all you bullshit Stranger assholes. Your "newspaper" has promoted violence, racism and sexism for years. Now you so called "progressive" Cap Hill shit baggers are jumping all over a woman for exercising her RIGHT to peacefully gather and express her constitutional right to free speech. You jokes are actually defending the police? AYour all experts all the sudden about trimesters and whatnot, looking for an excuse to justify your hatred for children. Also get to get in your little hipster shit remarks about the baby's name Wow, your a real enlightening cultural sensation. I guess the only "mothers rights" yall are interested in is the "right" to abortion (state sponsored) but when the cops kill an unborn life (The dr.s would have already released info vindicating the cops if she was lying) that's jim fine and dandy for yall. No wonder your art sucks an you are a joke outside of your bubble land. Seattle, the worlds largest gated community......
273
Why can't people talk about the fact that this was obviously a case of the police crossing the line on many occasions that night? This girl had a miscarriage, probably due to police brutality. Leave it at that. What purpose does it serve to dissect her life and judge her? Would it help you all if she were 25, married, and living in an upper class neighborhood? There is nothing in her actions that gives the police the excuse to do the harm they did to her. Even without the miscarriage the police overstepped their bounds. Pepper spray should NOT be used to peaceful protestors, pregnant or not. Why should someone who has just gone through this be ready to deal with the press in neat little soundbites? I hope she and everyone else harmed by police action while engaged in nonviolence sues the crap out of the SPD.
274
I think a pregnant woman(or a person with a bad heart, etc) should be able to join a non violent protest and expect to not be damaged.
It's also risky and 'irresponsible' of her to get in a car that could crash off the side of the road.
One should expect to be safe in his or her own country.
It's also risky and 'irresponsible' of her to get in a car that could crash off the side of the road.
One should expect to be safe in his or her own country.
275
I completely agree with Geni the comments on this list sounds like something straight out of a Handmaids Tale. So many people are criticizing this woman because she went to a protest, last time I checked pregnant women still had rights. The problem is not that this woman attended a protest the problem is the police's violent behavior against unarmed peaceful protestors.
276
@271 I just finished reading that book and was thinking about it right here. thank you for the notice!
and @223 I'll buy that unicorn, but only the kind and virtuous can see it. how can you sell something you dont see?
and @223 I'll buy that unicorn, but only the kind and virtuous can see it. how can you sell something you dont see?
277
@260- reread my comment. "you’re using your physical presence (your body) as an immovable object for the protest'
The occupy protests are that by definition, because they occupying.
The occupy protests are that by definition, because they occupying.
278
Apparently, it's only okay to be an unmarried, pregnant whatever-teen girl if you're Bristol Palin.
Haven't heard any criticism of her (or her mother who dragged her all over the country & paraded her in front of the masses--ooh! dangerous crowds!) for going up & down those airplane & bus steps while pregnant, walking on snow! and ice! in Alaska--while pregnant, and let's just put it out there--doing God knows what before she actually knew she was pregnant--drinking too many wine coolers and camping, by her account. Gasp! Camping! In the wild! And there are bears there! Would it have been "her own damn fault" if she'd been mauled by a bear and miscarried whichever kid(s) is/are hers?
I would venture to say that we OUGHT to feel safer on a city street in the presence of a police officer than in the wild camping with bears.
But then I'm not trying to find ways to blame the victim.
And who gives a flying flip if she wanted to name the baby "Miracle?" We all come up with names for the baby while in utero...but what business is it of anyone's if her choice was hippy-dippy? Does that make her life less valuable? 'Cause Tripp or Trig or Trap or Trucky or whatever--yeah, those are real normal, but we just threw a big ole national Red Republican Baby Shower for that SEVENTEEN year old, didn't we?
My condolences, Ms. Fox. I have lost 9 babies to miscarriage--and none of them were replaceable. I hope you find comfort and peace in the coming weeks and months.
Haven't heard any criticism of her (or her mother who dragged her all over the country & paraded her in front of the masses--ooh! dangerous crowds!) for going up & down those airplane & bus steps while pregnant, walking on snow! and ice! in Alaska--while pregnant, and let's just put it out there--doing God knows what before she actually knew she was pregnant--drinking too many wine coolers and camping, by her account. Gasp! Camping! In the wild! And there are bears there! Would it have been "her own damn fault" if she'd been mauled by a bear and miscarried whichever kid(s) is/are hers?
I would venture to say that we OUGHT to feel safer on a city street in the presence of a police officer than in the wild camping with bears.
But then I'm not trying to find ways to blame the victim.
And who gives a flying flip if she wanted to name the baby "Miracle?" We all come up with names for the baby while in utero...but what business is it of anyone's if her choice was hippy-dippy? Does that make her life less valuable? 'Cause Tripp or Trig or Trap or Trucky or whatever--yeah, those are real normal, but we just threw a big ole national Red Republican Baby Shower for that SEVENTEEN year old, didn't we?
My condolences, Ms. Fox. I have lost 9 babies to miscarriage--and none of them were replaceable. I hope you find comfort and peace in the coming weeks and months.
279
Blocking traffic and the free movement of anyone else IS NOT "PEACEFUL PROTEST" nor is it included in "the right to peacefully assemble".
Fuck all you enabling excuse-making bleeding heart criminal sympathizers.
Fuck all you enabling excuse-making bleeding heart criminal sympathizers.
280
I'm sorry but it's ridiculous that anyone wants the public to believe that a SPD officer kicked and ran a bike into a pregnant woman, and that combined with pepper spray is what caused a miscarriage. I agree with a previous poster, NO doctor would say XYZ caused this, without running tests etc..
Secondly, this girls story changes CONSTANTLY.
Yes, it's sad that she has to experience the loss of a miscarriage. Tragic. However, they happen daily around the world for a multitude of reasons.
Why would you run TOWARDS the cops screaming to "let me out" if you're pregnant and didn't want a confrontation? Backwards logic to me.
For those of you bashing the cops for pepper spraying a pregnant woman; I'm sorry, were they supposed to take down the names and medical history of every single protester BEFORE they cleared a Seattle street? This is ridiculous.
Secondly, this girls story changes CONSTANTLY.
Yes, it's sad that she has to experience the loss of a miscarriage. Tragic. However, they happen daily around the world for a multitude of reasons.
Why would you run TOWARDS the cops screaming to "let me out" if you're pregnant and didn't want a confrontation? Backwards logic to me.
For those of you bashing the cops for pepper spraying a pregnant woman; I'm sorry, were they supposed to take down the names and medical history of every single protester BEFORE they cleared a Seattle street? This is ridiculous.
281
While this is a sad topic and I do feel bad for her unfortunate circumstance, this chick is full of it! She did not miscarry due to pepper spray. If medical records prove otherwise I will gladly choke on my words and will dub myself an asshole but till then, she is using this to get 15min of fame and further enrage people against the police! Not to mention try to make a quick buck off the city! #6 pretty much took the words out of my mouth! Sorry for her loss but saying the police killed her unborn baby is just ridiculous!
282
Apparently, it's only okay to be an unmarried, pregnant whatever-teen girl if you're Bristol Palin.
Haven't heard any criticism of her (or her mother who dragged her all over the country & paraded her in front of the masses--ooh! dangerous crowds!) for going up & down those airplane & bus steps while pregnant, walking on snow! and ice! in Alaska--while pregnant, and let's just put it out there--doing God knows what before she actually knew she was pregnant--drinking too many wine coolers and camping, by her account. Gasp! Camping! In the wild! And there are bears there! Would it have been "her own damn fault" if she'd been mauled by a bear and miscarried whichever kid(s) is/are hers?
I would venture to say that we OUGHT to feel safer on a city street in the presence of a police officer than in the wild camping with bears.
But then I'm not trying to find ways to blame the victim.
And who gives a flying flip if she wanted to name the baby "Miracle?" We all come up with names for the baby while in utero...but what business is it of anyone's if her choice was hippy-dippy? Does that make her life less valuable? 'Cause Tripp or Trig or Trap or Trucky or whatever--yeah, those are real normal, but we just threw a big ole national Red Republican Baby Shower for that SEVENTEEN year old, didn't we?
My condolences, Ms. Fox. I have lost 9 babies to miscarriage--and none of them were replaceable. I hope you find comfort and peace in the coming weeks and months.
Haven't heard any criticism of her (or her mother who dragged her all over the country & paraded her in front of the masses--ooh! dangerous crowds!) for going up & down those airplane & bus steps while pregnant, walking on snow! and ice! in Alaska--while pregnant, and let's just put it out there--doing God knows what before she actually knew she was pregnant--drinking too many wine coolers and camping, by her account. Gasp! Camping! In the wild! And there are bears there! Would it have been "her own damn fault" if she'd been mauled by a bear and miscarried whichever kid(s) is/are hers?
I would venture to say that we OUGHT to feel safer on a city street in the presence of a police officer than in the wild camping with bears.
But then I'm not trying to find ways to blame the victim.
And who gives a flying flip if she wanted to name the baby "Miracle?" We all come up with names for the baby while in utero...but what business is it of anyone's if her choice was hippy-dippy? Does that make her life less valuable? 'Cause Tripp or Trig or Trap or Trucky or whatever--yeah, those are real normal, but we just threw a big ole national Red Republican Baby Shower for that SEVENTEEN year old, didn't we?
My condolences, Ms. Fox. I have lost 9 babies to miscarriage--and none of them were replaceable. I hope you find comfort and peace in the coming weeks and months.
283
While I'm totally dumbfounded that police would resort to the tactics used in Selma, Alabama in the 1960s, I have a lot of doubt about the woman's claims.
Anyone who has ever been pregnant knows that it takes a kick with a whole lot of impact to cause a miscarriage. The baby -- especially at 3 months -- is tiny and is surrounded with a huge sac of fluid to protect it. Pepper spray doesn't cause miscarriages. It's PEPPER. Granted it's in a much more concentrated form than what we find in the kitchen, but it's pepper.
My guess is her miscarriage was caused by lack of prenatal care and poor diet/life habits. She is homeless. She has no job, no income and no means of providing shelter & nutrition for the fetus. If, as she said, her family was looking forward to the baby so they could help raise it, why didn't they give her a safe place to live and some hot meals? This woman's story has a lot of holes in it. I think she's posturing for a lawsuit and settlement.
Anyone who has ever been pregnant knows that it takes a kick with a whole lot of impact to cause a miscarriage. The baby -- especially at 3 months -- is tiny and is surrounded with a huge sac of fluid to protect it. Pepper spray doesn't cause miscarriages. It's PEPPER. Granted it's in a much more concentrated form than what we find in the kitchen, but it's pepper.
My guess is her miscarriage was caused by lack of prenatal care and poor diet/life habits. She is homeless. She has no job, no income and no means of providing shelter & nutrition for the fetus. If, as she said, her family was looking forward to the baby so they could help raise it, why didn't they give her a safe place to live and some hot meals? This woman's story has a lot of holes in it. I think she's posturing for a lawsuit and settlement.
285
While I'm totally dumbfounded that police would resort to the tactics used in Selma, Alabama in the 1960s, I have a lot of doubt about the woman's claims.
Anyone who has ever been pregnant knows that it takes a kick with a whole lot of impact to cause a miscarriage. The baby -- especially at 3 months -- is tiny and is surrounded with a huge sac of fluid to protect it. Pepper spray doesn't cause miscarriages. It's PEPPER. Granted it's in a much more concentrated form than what we find in the kitchen, but it's pepper.
My guess is her miscarriage was caused by lack of prenatal care and poor diet/life habits. She is homeless. She has no job, no income and no means of providing shelter & nutrition for the fetus. If, as she said, her family was looking forward to the baby so they could help raise it, why didn't they give her a safe place to live and some hot meals? This woman's story has a lot of holes in it. I think she's posturing for a lawsuit and settlement.
Anyone who has ever been pregnant knows that it takes a kick with a whole lot of impact to cause a miscarriage. The baby -- especially at 3 months -- is tiny and is surrounded with a huge sac of fluid to protect it. Pepper spray doesn't cause miscarriages. It's PEPPER. Granted it's in a much more concentrated form than what we find in the kitchen, but it's pepper.
My guess is her miscarriage was caused by lack of prenatal care and poor diet/life habits. She is homeless. She has no job, no income and no means of providing shelter & nutrition for the fetus. If, as she said, her family was looking forward to the baby so they could help raise it, why didn't they give her a safe place to live and some hot meals? This woman's story has a lot of holes in it. I think she's posturing for a lawsuit and settlement.
287
If anyone thinks she's making this up,I'd ask them to pray for their souls,and maybe spare a word for the mother and child.This is so sad,and I am angry that the justifications have begun already.War is being made on the peaceful by the brutish,God Bless America
290
An Army study concluded that pepper spray’s active ingredient, “is capable of producing carcinogenic effects, sensitization, cardiovascular toxicity, as well as possible human fatalities.” Very illuminating ACLU report on pepper spray circa 1995 (aclu-sc.org) The Pepper Spray Police Used on UC Davis Protesters appears
to have a 1.3% Major Capaicinoid solution. The only time a spray is more potent? When it's meant to stop a freaking bear. Few new law enforcement technologies have attracted as much attention, or created as much controversy, as Oleoresin Capsicum, (“pepper spray” or OC”), which was legalized for use by California law enforcement agencies in October, 1992. It was legalized for civilian use in March, 1994. By May 31, 1995, California police officers and sheriff ’s deputies had used pepper spray nearly 16,000 times— in the last year at an average rate of 24 times a day statewide. Since 1992, the beginning of a three-year “provisional certification” of pepper spray concerns have mounted about health risks associated with OC, especially fatalities among suspects in custody who had been sprayed. The provisional certification is scheduled to expire in on Aug. 1, 1995. In this report, the ACLU of Southern California identifies 26 deaths among people who were pepper-sprayed by police officers in the period Jan. 1, 1993, through June 1, 1995. The fatality total suggests that one person dies after being pepper sprayed for about every 600 times the spray is used by police.
19 hours ago · Like.
291
@110. Don't let the trolls get to you. I pass on my deepest sympathies to you and to Jennifer, from not only myself, but others in my country (Australia) watching this tragedy and others like it unfold, day after day.
It is sad to see so many people all doing their best armchair physician impressions, in an effort to pass blame. You can second-guess her circumstances until the cows come home, but you don't know any more than I do. Don't judge her, just express your condolences if you're so inclined.
Likewise, people in the dark about pepper spray. We call it capsicum spray here, though it's generally the same stuff they use in the states, just nowhere near as strong. US pepper spray is a good deal stronger than those habanero chillies (did I spell that right?). Some say six times, some say ten times. Either way, it is a high grade irritant. It is currently thought to be linked to a variety of side effects, including respiratory failure and cardiac arrhythmia (I know I probably spelled that wrong).
In this country there was a great deal of consternation before capsicum spray was introduced because of its health risks, and we do not even use as strong a version as you use in the states. True, not all the science is in. Until it is, it should not be ruled out as a contributing factor at the least.
It is sad to see so many people all doing their best armchair physician impressions, in an effort to pass blame. You can second-guess her circumstances until the cows come home, but you don't know any more than I do. Don't judge her, just express your condolences if you're so inclined.
Likewise, people in the dark about pepper spray. We call it capsicum spray here, though it's generally the same stuff they use in the states, just nowhere near as strong. US pepper spray is a good deal stronger than those habanero chillies (did I spell that right?). Some say six times, some say ten times. Either way, it is a high grade irritant. It is currently thought to be linked to a variety of side effects, including respiratory failure and cardiac arrhythmia (I know I probably spelled that wrong).
In this country there was a great deal of consternation before capsicum spray was introduced because of its health risks, and we do not even use as strong a version as you use in the states. True, not all the science is in. Until it is, it should not be ruled out as a contributing factor at the least.
292
"At only two months, how did she know it was a girl?"
Just one of many holes in this crustie's tale.
Just one of many holes in this crustie's tale.
293
"So I tracked Fox down today at the Occupy Seattle encampment at Seattle Central Community College. Had she contacted anyone at the hospital? “I can’t go to the hospital until Sunday or Monday,” she said. Fox said that she’s having a memorial service for her miscarried baby and one of her fellow occupiers is planning a candlelight vigil, which will consume her time until next week. Can't she get away to the hospital for an hour? “No.” I provided Fox a copy of a records release for the hospital, which she put into her coat, but again Fox said she couldn’t go request her records until next week. I offered her a ride to and from the hospital, but she again refused. I explained to Fox that, lacking any evidence of her claim, her story was increasingly subject to scrutiny."
LIke I said....bullshit. The only thing real is that golf ball sized boil on Fox's lip.
But not to worry, there will be plenty of drama at the vigil! Maybe they'll lance her boil as a finale.
LIke I said....bullshit. The only thing real is that golf ball sized boil on Fox's lip.
But not to worry, there will be plenty of drama at the vigil! Maybe they'll lance her boil as a finale.
296
So 6 weeks ago when she was arrested by cops she was 3 months pregnant?
This crusty is not the only thing smelling fishy around her.
This crusty is not the only thing smelling fishy around her.
297
Having read about half of the 300 comments I have a couple of questions that might come up in court.
Is this a particularly short girl, i.e., 4 feet tall or less? Was the police officer riding a bike with particularly large wheels? What are the odds that this person's stomach was at the same level as the wheel?
If she was kicked by a police officer hard enough to cause a miscarriage, was there any report of brusing or contustion on her stomoach which verify that she was?
Where or who is the Daddy? Does he have any feelings on this, e.g., sense of personal loss on the death of his child or complete relief that he won't be paying child support for 18 or 19 years?
Most likely an attorney will offer to represent her and a wrongful death suit will be filed, even though he knows he can't win.
The City will plead not guilty but will offer to settle out of court rather than face the publicity such a suit will bring.
The attorney will get with his client to see how much money she(they) can accept ... demands will be made for an outrageous sum of money, the police will offer about 1/10th of that amount, the attorney will offer a compromise amount and eventually they will settle. No offical blame will be assigned, no culpability on the part of either the plaintiff or the defendant. She gets a tidy some of money, the attorney gets a tidy sum of money, the City pays a pittance of what it would cost in attorney fees alone, everybody goes home happy. No harm no foul.
I will wager, however, that if the Fox person get a nice 5 or 6 figure sum of money, that Daddy won't be quite as shy as he is now about showing up and claiming what his attorney thinks his fair share.
Looks like a win-win situation for everyone, except the baby.
298
Thank for the update. It's looking like the whole thing was a lie, and there was never was a pregnancy. This is not going to bode well for the movement.
299
I can't wait til we see the manufactured outrage at the vigil with goiter girl wailing and trying to remember if she was two months or four months pregnant.
Will they livestream it for shits and giggles or is Miss Fox saving herself for Maury?
Will they livestream it for shits and giggles or is Miss Fox saving herself for Maury?
300
I'm not defending the cops. They have been senselessly brutal in some cases, and most of them deserve an asskicking. That said, if she made this up, she is making us ALL look bad for fifteen minutes of fame. Now there's this going around on tumblr:
http://itsallgone.tumblr.com/post/131540…
Which is how I found this article, (via care2.com). If the article above is based on this, this shit is spiraling out of control. We need medical records, and we need them now. If anyone knows her, talk to her, get the records. I understand the author spoke with her today, and offered to drive her to the clinic. We can't afford to get fucked over by opportunistic sycophants or attention freaks. This is too damn important to let some individual's self-esteem problems and desire to be a martyr discredit this entire movement while it's still in it's infancy.
Shit.
There are enough real issues, let's tackle those.
http://itsallgone.tumblr.com/post/131540…
Which is how I found this article, (via care2.com). If the article above is based on this, this shit is spiraling out of control. We need medical records, and we need them now. If anyone knows her, talk to her, get the records. I understand the author spoke with her today, and offered to drive her to the clinic. We can't afford to get fucked over by opportunistic sycophants or attention freaks. This is too damn important to let some individual's self-esteem problems and desire to be a martyr discredit this entire movement while it's still in it's infancy.
Shit.
There are enough real issues, let's tackle those.
301
I'm not defending the cops. They have been senselessly brutal in some cases, and most of them deserve an asskicking. That said, if she made this up, she is making us ALL look bad for fifteen minutes of fame. Now there's this going around on tumblr:
http://itsallgone.tumblr.com/post/131540…
Which is how I found this article, (via care2.com). If the article above is based on this, this shit is spiraling out of control. We need medical records, and we need them now. If anyone knows her, talk to her, get the records. I understand the author spoke with her today, and offered to drive her to the clinic. We can't afford to get fucked over by opportunistic sycophants or attention freaks. This is too damn important to let some individual's self-esteem problems and desire to be a martyr discredit this entire movement while it's still in it's infancy.
Shit.
There are enough real issues, let's tackle those.
http://itsallgone.tumblr.com/post/131540…
Which is how I found this article, (via care2.com). If the article above is based on this, this shit is spiraling out of control. We need medical records, and we need them now. If anyone knows her, talk to her, get the records. I understand the author spoke with her today, and offered to drive her to the clinic. We can't afford to get fucked over by opportunistic sycophants or attention freaks. This is too damn important to let some individual's self-esteem problems and desire to be a martyr discredit this entire movement while it's still in it's infancy.
Shit.
There are enough real issues, let's tackle those.
302
"This is not going to bode well for the movement"
Unlike the drugs, drinking, fighting, rape (Friday night), curb shitting. Up until confused crusty girl's phantom pregnancy, things were going swell.
Unlike the drugs, drinking, fighting, rape (Friday night), curb shitting. Up until confused crusty girl's phantom pregnancy, things were going swell.
304
Well, I hope the cops are happy now. They made their first OWS kill, maybe they can all go out and celebrate with beer and pizza!
305
Well this is awkward.
http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…
I guess this is a lesson that one needs to be sure they are dealing in truths when selecting their martyrs.
http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…
I guess this is a lesson that one needs to be sure they are dealing in truths when selecting their martyrs.
306
Well this is awkward
http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…
A lesson that one needs be sure they're dealing in truths when selecting their martyrs.
http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…
A lesson that one needs be sure they're dealing in truths when selecting their martyrs.
307
How dare this reporter hound this woman for records at this point anyway...for god sakes, let her grieve! And to bring up why is a pregnant woman protesting??? That's like asking a woman who has been raped why she was wearing what she was wearing>..&*(&^%$@@#*
308
I am not defending the Seattle Police Department for their actions. A peaceful protest should be met with a peaceful response.
I had the privelege of working with Jennifer a few years ago and can say that she is a wonderful human being. I am saddened by her lost but believe that she in many ways is a kid having a kid. I hope she is able to grow from this situtation and get her life turned around.
Are the details of her pregnancy true? I don't know. Unfortunately her past leads me to question her claims about the pregnancy. The whole thing makes me sad.
I had the privelege of working with Jennifer a few years ago and can say that she is a wonderful human being. I am saddened by her lost but believe that she in many ways is a kid having a kid. I hope she is able to grow from this situtation and get her life turned around.
Are the details of her pregnancy true? I don't know. Unfortunately her past leads me to question her claims about the pregnancy. The whole thing makes me sad.
309
Mr. Holden. I commend your true journalism in this matter. If her claims are accurate and you helped develop the story that is very admirable. If her claims are false and your investigative technique exploits the farce, your work is equally admirable. Either way, you are a shining example of the type of true reporting that most media outlets (LEFT AND RIGHT) seem to ignore.
Thanks!
Thanks!
310
Mr. Holden. I commend your true journalism in this matter. If her claims are accurate and you helped develop the story that is very admirable. If her claims are false and your investigative technique exploits the farce, your work is equally admirable. Either way, you are a shining example of the type of true reporting that most media outlets (LEFT AND RIGHT) seem to ignore.
Thanks!
Thanks!
312
In situations like this I hate to be as skeptical as I am, but I see another problem with this story besides the fact that she is not being forthright about getting the records released. Namely, she claims that the cop kicked her. This is not very likely. In a crowd like that anyone who does not keep their balance is going to the ground. Cops are trained not to make stupid mistakes like that (mistakes that would put themselves in danger).
That said, this may not be as cut-and-dried as a simple lie either. It could be an example of the old double-cross where she is being co-opted by the police in order to discredit OWS. Can you imagine FOX News if it comes out that she's lying. Think about it. Those trying to get rid of these protests are very clever people.
Question everything.
That said, this may not be as cut-and-dried as a simple lie either. It could be an example of the old double-cross where she is being co-opted by the police in order to discredit OWS. Can you imagine FOX News if it comes out that she's lying. Think about it. Those trying to get rid of these protests are very clever people.
Question everything.
313
Sorry but when you claim to have a miscarriage due to cops you don't make excites about getting proof to prove your claim you get off your Damn ass and go get that proof. Especially if someone is Wellington help you with your case. Has it been found out yet if she was the one who few weeks prior stated she was pregnant? Why is she NOT in a transition house if she was pregnant that way they help her out with getting a place???
314
Well, if she was never pregnant, then she has a lot of 'splaning to do. And it sure is looking like that is the case.
315
Not sure why a pregnant woman is going to a protest, You have to get your priorities straight, ya know. Be safe. There's other ways she could have gotten involved with the Occupy movement, and everyone that's already jumping on this bandwagon about how CORRUPT cops are now, it's weird how when there there protecting you, or helping people during 9/11 how HEROIC they are, but then you turn two-faced when 1 person starts making UNPROVEN claims. Let's just wait and see what the evidence says. She seems kind of fishy to me, but then again I COULD be wrong as well.
316
I'm pregnant, and I have no idea whether Jennifer Fox was pregnant or not, but SHAME ON ALL OF YOU who say she had no business being there because she was pregnant. You people make me sick. As if we pregnant women should shut ourselves up in our houses for fear of the frickin POLICE, for crying out loud. I am a human being with rights as an American citizen. I deserve the right to exercise those rights without fear of being attacked by police. Even if I know I might be attacked, I deserve the right to act as I see fit, not as nothing more than an incubator for my child.
If we are going to start saying certain people shouldn't protest because they ought to have other priorities, well that means that NO parents should protest, since they might get injured and their children need them. It means NO ONE who has ANYONE who depends on them (elderly parents, disabled siblings, children, disabled spouses or partners) should protest, because they should be concerned about what will happen to those dependents if the protester is injured by police. It means no one without health insurance should protest, since they may be seriously injured and unable to pay their medical bills. It means no one who might lose their job or be unable to pay their bills if they miss work should protest, since they could be injured and miss work.
Suddenly we find ourselves at a place where only unemployed people with no dependents, who somehow manage to have health insurance, should protest, because everyone else ought to "have their priorities straight". You people suck.
If we are going to start saying certain people shouldn't protest because they ought to have other priorities, well that means that NO parents should protest, since they might get injured and their children need them. It means NO ONE who has ANYONE who depends on them (elderly parents, disabled siblings, children, disabled spouses or partners) should protest, because they should be concerned about what will happen to those dependents if the protester is injured by police. It means no one without health insurance should protest, since they may be seriously injured and unable to pay their medical bills. It means no one who might lose their job or be unable to pay their bills if they miss work should protest, since they could be injured and miss work.
Suddenly we find ourselves at a place where only unemployed people with no dependents, who somehow manage to have health insurance, should protest, because everyone else ought to "have their priorities straight". You people suck.
317
I appreciate the effort that was put into interrogating this woman's claims from an agenda-free perspective, but find myself wishing that nothing had been posted until after the effort was made (at which point it would have been clear that there was nothing worth posting - "Young Woman Probably Lied About Pregnancy" hardly warrants publication). As it stands, this story is bad for the Occupy movement - and it's no fault of the occupants.
I sympathize with Slog writers' desire to provide prompt reportage of the protests, but I've come to understand that it originates from the desire to support OS. This post examples that sometimes getting the word out as quickly as possible is complicit with defaming OS and the entire Occupy movement.
I sympathize with Slog writers' desire to provide prompt reportage of the protests, but I've come to understand that it originates from the desire to support OS. This post examples that sometimes getting the word out as quickly as possible is complicit with defaming OS and the entire Occupy movement.
319
What I read was that so far Jennifer Fox has done nothing but make a statement with no documentation. The story got sensationalized in the paper and probably the nightly news about the horrible way that the Ocuppy movement is being denied first amendment rights and the poor little girl who lost her baby. If the story is that she lied it will end up on the retraction page but everyone will remember the poor 19 year old Jennifer Fox who lost her baby.
If it is kept hidden that she lied after all about loosing a baby. The Occupy "Union" movement is no better than the corporations hiding secrets to keep their profits.
Woo Hoo, we won a hollow victory based on a lie!
If it is kept hidden that she lied after all about loosing a baby. The Occupy "Union" movement is no better than the corporations hiding secrets to keep their profits.
Woo Hoo, we won a hollow victory based on a lie!
320
How is a peaceful protest a risk to her unborn child? How is it "normal" to have to fear for your safety because of police presence?
This is abuse of power, plain and simple. Regardless of the veracity of the story, it is brutality and abuse.
This is abuse of power, plain and simple. Regardless of the veracity of the story, it is brutality and abuse.
321
I have no idea about the veracity of this woman's claim. That being said, to all those who say that pregnant women are endangering themselves and their unborn children by protesting: I have participated in many protests and acts of civil disobedience none of which were handled by the police with excessive force or brutality. It is NOT obvious to anyone participating in the occupy protests that they are going to be brutalized or that they are endangering their lives by protesting, but it is becoming increasingly so.
322
For all those posters who are asking, "why she joined the protest if pregnant?" I suppose if she had a crystal ball and could look into the future and see that the police officers would club her in the stomach, and pepper spray her, she might have rethought the decision. Blaming the victim here. It's like saying when a woman is raped, "why would she wear that dress," or; "why walk down a city street?" This is America, and citizens should be able to partake in a peaceful protest without having the police beat the baby out of you!
323
She was never pregnant! She is a disease-ridden COMPULSIVE LIAR. Even her own mom and sister said so.
324
"Regardless of the veracity of the story, it is brutality and abuse."
There you have these peoples' thinking in a nutshell. Thanks @320!
There you have these peoples' thinking in a nutshell. Thanks @320!
325
@51, My 11-year-old would beg to differ. He is a straight-A student, a star soccer player, an all-around great kid and a credit to the mama who chose to have him. "Nobody needs to have a kid at 19"? He and I say FUCK YOU WITH A SPIKY STICK.
326
@51 and @230, My 11-year-old would beg to differ. He is a straight-A student, a star soccer player, an all-around great kid and a credit to the mama who chose to have him. "Nobody needs to have a kid at 19"? He and I say FUCK YOU WITH A SPIKY STICK.
327
@110
occupyseattlealex...um were you actually fooled by Fox's story, or were you just lying too?
I know her personally. She was indeed pregnant, and now is not.
In addition, she went to the hospital the night she was pepper sprayed and so if there is any documentation about whether she was kicked, sprayed, etc. it is in her medical records. Those will come out eventually, whether in the media or in court (if it goes that route).
occupyseattlealex...um were you actually fooled by Fox's story, or were you just lying too?
328
Hmm. I was zinged before for suggesting that people not jump to conclusions until the facts get checked, and I'm sure I will again, but:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/lo…
"Fox's former foster mother, Lark Stebbins, said Fox called her from Harborview after one recent protest but did not mention she was pregnant.
Stebbins said Fox, whom she parented for 10 years, has a pattern of exaggeration. "My daughter is a compulsive liar," Stebbins said. "She's a wannabe drama queen."
Stebbins' older daughter echoed the statements in a separate interview.
"I seriously doubt, that if she is claiming she had a miscarriage, that she was even pregnant," said Nicole Botes, who has known Fox for a decade. "I'd like to see actual medical reports."
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/lo…
"Fox's former foster mother, Lark Stebbins, said Fox called her from Harborview after one recent protest but did not mention she was pregnant.
Stebbins said Fox, whom she parented for 10 years, has a pattern of exaggeration. "My daughter is a compulsive liar," Stebbins said. "She's a wannabe drama queen."
Stebbins' older daughter echoed the statements in a separate interview.
"I seriously doubt, that if she is claiming she had a miscarriage, that she was even pregnant," said Nicole Botes, who has known Fox for a decade. "I'd like to see actual medical reports."
329
She had a constitutional right and this is murder! If it had been a gang banger he would be being charged!
330
I have miscarried at 3 months and unless she is super woman she would not have been back out there protesting or doing whaterver she is professing to be doing if she had suffered that kind of loss, both emotionally and physically. Show me the records!
332
thankfully she will not be reproducing right now. that's all we need is another wasted life out there sucking up government money through welfare. i bet that bitch wasn't even a preggo. she gets arrested two months ago and tells police she's three months pregnant and she tells them last week she's three months pregnant. it just doesn't add up, now she says she had twins and one died in that previous arrest. give me a fucking break. this bitch needs needs to be arrested for filing a false police report if she can't prove she was indeed pregnant and miscarried, and even if she can there's no proving the police were responsible for killing a fetus of a known drug-user
333
Blocking an intersection is not something you have a right to do. It's not peaceful protest or protected by the 1st Amendment. If you stand in the middle of an active street, intending to violate the UNDHR-protected right to free travel for thousands of your fellow citizens, the police have a duty to remove you. If you refuse to obey a verbal order to get out of the street and stop violating others' rights, the police are legally empowered to use a continuum of increasing force to make you comply and stop the violation.
All the posters saying Fox had no reason to expect the use of force are lying to themselves, letting themselves believe that standing in the middle of an active street is the same as standing at a rally on the sidewalk or in a park. It's not.
OWS uses Orwellian doublethink about this, sometimes admitting their tactics are not only illegal but that they deliberately violate other people's rights because doing so is "necessary" or "effective" to "make people listen," but then when the police act to stop these violations, OWS claims they thought they had a right to do these things, that the 1st Amendment made it legal.
All the posters saying Fox had no reason to expect the use of force are lying to themselves, letting themselves believe that standing in the middle of an active street is the same as standing at a rally on the sidewalk or in a park. It's not.
OWS uses Orwellian doublethink about this, sometimes admitting their tactics are not only illegal but that they deliberately violate other people's rights because doing so is "necessary" or "effective" to "make people listen," but then when the police act to stop these violations, OWS claims they thought they had a right to do these things, that the 1st Amendment made it legal.
334
Oh, boy, "income inequality" again. Do any of you who are bandying this ludicrous and vague term around even do a minute of serious thinking about it? Try just this one, simple thought experiment: Jack and John both get their Weekly Egalitarian Equalized Paycheck (WEEP) of $432.16, because incomes should be equal. However, Jack is a dope and wastes his money on lotto tickets, while John saves his money. Within a short time, gross inequality will result! Unfair! Now we need to control how much people can save, spend, share, or invest so that no one ends up with more money than anyone else. Perhaps assigning a combination police/revenue office to every household would work.
Fact is, "inequality" is part of life. People are different, and will accomplish different things based on scads of variables and influences. Income is just one measure -- another thought experiment: In addition to what you learned about their WEEP funds, there are other things about Jack and John that tend toward inequality. Jack is wasteful with money, but doesn't want much, has no ambition, is a good-looking 20-something with lots of girlfriends, and enjoys life on the dole. John, on the other hand, is fat, smelly, and socially inept, but reads all the time, saves his money, does programming work on the side (although he's been arrested various times for "freelance earning"). How are you going to equalize the non-monetary inequalities? Doesn't John have a "right" to a good relationship with an attractive and talented woman?
Unfair!
Fact is, "inequality" is part of life. People are different, and will accomplish different things based on scads of variables and influences. Income is just one measure -- another thought experiment: In addition to what you learned about their WEEP funds, there are other things about Jack and John that tend toward inequality. Jack is wasteful with money, but doesn't want much, has no ambition, is a good-looking 20-something with lots of girlfriends, and enjoys life on the dole. John, on the other hand, is fat, smelly, and socially inept, but reads all the time, saves his money, does programming work on the side (although he's been arrested various times for "freelance earning"). How are you going to equalize the non-monetary inequalities? Doesn't John have a "right" to a good relationship with an attractive and talented woman?
Unfair!
335
Oh, boy, "income inequality" again. Do any of you who are bandying this ludicrous and vague term around even do a minute of serious thinking about it? Try just this one, simple thought experiment: Jack and John both get their Weekly Egalitarian Equalized Paycheck (WEEP) of $432.16, because incomes should be equal. However, Jack is a dope and wastes his money on lotto tickets, while John saves his money. Within a short time, gross inequality will result! Unfair! Now we need to control how much people can save, spend, share, or invest so that no one ends up with more money than anyone else. Perhaps assigning a combination police/revenue office to every household would work.
Fact is, "inequality" is part of life. People are different, and will accomplish different things based on scads of variables and influences. Income is just one measure -- another thought experiment: In addition to what you learned about their WEEP funds, there are other things about Jack and John that tend toward inequality. Jack is wasteful with money, but doesn't want much, has no ambition, is a good-looking 20-something with lots of girlfriends, and enjoys life on the dole. John, on the other hand, is fat, smelly, and socially inept, but reads all the time, saves his money, does programming work on the side (although he's been arrested various times for "freelance earning"). How are you going to equalize the non-monetary inequalities? Doesn't John have a "right" to a good relationship with an attractive and talented woman?
Unfair!
Fact is, "inequality" is part of life. People are different, and will accomplish different things based on scads of variables and influences. Income is just one measure -- another thought experiment: In addition to what you learned about their WEEP funds, there are other things about Jack and John that tend toward inequality. Jack is wasteful with money, but doesn't want much, has no ambition, is a good-looking 20-something with lots of girlfriends, and enjoys life on the dole. John, on the other hand, is fat, smelly, and socially inept, but reads all the time, saves his money, does programming work on the side (although he's been arrested various times for "freelance earning"). How are you going to equalize the non-monetary inequalities? Doesn't John have a "right" to a good relationship with an attractive and talented woman?
Unfair!
336
The reporter asked for medical records even gave her a release for so he could go pick them up but she pocketed the forms and said she will go next week. OccupySeattleAlex were you there when she was in the hospital??? If she already has the medical records why does she not comply with the reporter and show him?!?!?!
Sorry everyone I am a mother too and knowing the violence possibility at a protest and knowing there is drugs there etc I would NOT go to a protest pregnant!!!!!!! I care more about the safety and well being of a unborn child then a damn protest for a cause. If i was homeless and pregnant which I was and a friend of mine was too we both went to transition housing and got help with getting onto income assistance and got places to live putting OUR kids first before anything. We both got off our asses for our kids. I am now working full time and a full time student and same with her among many of our other friends who chose to put the safety and well being of our children first and what would be best for them not a cause.
Hey reporter dude did you find out who the girl was who was supposedly pregnant 9 weeks earlier.
And why did Fox change her estimated time along she was first stating she was 2 months then a little while later in fact a week later in she is a month farther along. Sorry but ultrasound are not going to be a month off on how far along someone is. When they do ultrasound they actually measure the fetus to find out they don't just look at the screen and guess. Plus she went to the Drs weeks before this incident *supposedly* anything can happen within those weeks in veteran.
Sorry everyone I am a mother too and knowing the violence possibility at a protest and knowing there is drugs there etc I would NOT go to a protest pregnant!!!!!!! I care more about the safety and well being of a unborn child then a damn protest for a cause. If i was homeless and pregnant which I was and a friend of mine was too we both went to transition housing and got help with getting onto income assistance and got places to live putting OUR kids first before anything. We both got off our asses for our kids. I am now working full time and a full time student and same with her among many of our other friends who chose to put the safety and well being of our children first and what would be best for them not a cause.
Hey reporter dude did you find out who the girl was who was supposedly pregnant 9 weeks earlier.
And why did Fox change her estimated time along she was first stating she was 2 months then a little while later in fact a week later in she is a month farther along. Sorry but ultrasound are not going to be a month off on how far along someone is. When they do ultrasound they actually measure the fetus to find out they don't just look at the screen and guess. Plus she went to the Drs weeks before this incident *supposedly* anything can happen within those weeks in veteran.
337
Hey lenalink you are completely wrong about it being murder under 6 months along especially under 3 months along a fetus can be.lost. It is when the baby is OVER 6 months in the last trimester someone could be charged in fact how about we charge all those Damn parents who drink, do drugs and smoke while pregnant they are knowingly endangering their.children and they don't care!!!! So yes we should charge those parents with gross negligence etc. They do it the whole 40 weeks of their pregnancy which their kids are born with many health issues that could have been prevented if their parents werent such idiots. But yes no one can be charged with murder of a fetus under so many months. Also shouldnt we charge the people then with murder who have had abortions and the Drs who.provide the abortions??? A fetus can be lost at any time during a pregnancy even up to 40 weeks which is in fact.called a still birth if the fetus is so far along!!!
338
Miscarriage or not, this woman was ASSAULTED. IN THE STOMACH. WHILE PREGNANT. Why are we so quick to attack the actions of the victim and justify the actions of the abuser. She was foolish to assume that, as a pregnant woman, she wouldn't be assaulted by police, and that human decency was far more prevalent than it is.
339
"this woman was ASSAULTED. IN THE STOMACH. WHILE PREGNANT."
Where's the actual evidence of the assault? That she was pregnant? That she's a woman:
flic.kr/p/aJnDGe
Where's the actual evidence of the assault? That she was pregnant? That she's a woman:
flic.kr/p/aJnDGe
340
"@93 Protest all day long, Seattlelites are known for it, but when you start blocking intersections protesting and interferring with traffic-your going to get forcibly removed whether by pepper spray or arrest."
Really ? Well in Europe you're not going to get arrested for interrupting traffic. Nor pepper sprayed, what are your policemen thinking ? Are they barbarians ? Traffic will be driven around by policemen (serve and protect indeed) to let you protest all you want. What is more important to you, the risks that traffic cause to the life of the protesting citizens, or the slow down of some traffic carrying the wealth of the 1% ?
Really ? Well in Europe you're not going to get arrested for interrupting traffic. Nor pepper sprayed, what are your policemen thinking ? Are they barbarians ? Traffic will be driven around by policemen (serve and protect indeed) to let you protest all you want. What is more important to you, the risks that traffic cause to the life of the protesting citizens, or the slow down of some traffic carrying the wealth of the 1% ?
341
@340 I guess you've never seen the French national police at work during protests in Paris where they mace anyone blocking streets. Fucking idiot.
Gotta love how this cocksucker Holden rushes out a fake story of police abuse and a miscarriage but totally fucking ignores an actual reported rape at Occupy Seattle just last Friday when an unconscience woman was found naked from the top down, in her tent. I guess Phantom fetuses are more important than real rape victims.
Gotta love how this cocksucker Holden rushes out a fake story of police abuse and a miscarriage but totally fucking ignores an actual reported rape at Occupy Seattle just last Friday when an unconscience woman was found naked from the top down, in her tent. I guess Phantom fetuses are more important than real rape victims.
342
Jennifer Fox is not the issue here, dudes. The issue is the brutal and deliberate targeting of women during this protest. I was at the protest and captured a bunch of video on my IowaBoyDave YouTube site that not only shows the SPD’s disdain for protesters, but disregard for the safety of bystanders. I stood in front of two officers as they sprayed around me to get to the people who weren’t white, middle aged and holding a camera. It’s all on the IowaBoyDave youtube site. VIDEO EVIDENCE!
344
Did the police know she was not pregnant when they sprayed her and allegedly kicked her, Kristin? Did they know that she was not asthmatic?
The actions of the police were reckless. While it is important for the news media to follow up on verifying whether allegations against the police are true--and important for readers to treat every allegation as such until unambiguous evidence comes forward--it's also important not to use doubts about the truth of a story to pretend not to see the commission of a wrong.
The actions of the police were reckless. While it is important for the news media to follow up on verifying whether allegations against the police are true--and important for readers to treat every allegation as such until unambiguous evidence comes forward--it's also important not to use doubts about the truth of a story to pretend not to see the commission of a wrong.
345
"Iowaboydave did you get on video actual proof that she was kicked???"
Funny...two hundred cameras there and nobody caught any actual kicking or punching as the police cleared the protesters off the street.
"important for readers to treat every allegation as such"
Like the allegation that a woman was raped at Occupy Seattle last week and got zero media coverage?
Funny...two hundred cameras there and nobody caught any actual kicking or punching as the police cleared the protesters off the street.
"important for readers to treat every allegation as such"
Like the allegation that a woman was raped at Occupy Seattle last week and got zero media coverage?
346
Really? The people that support this woman are grasping at straws! This woman is a liar, plain and simple. Her story fell apart, and is continually crumbling to NOTHING with increased scrutiny.
If this were some Tea Party protestor, the Occupy supporters would be dancing around a bonfire calliing for that person's head. But, since it is one of their own, they make excuses for her, and everyone needs to have compassion. The double standard is sickening.
You sucked these idiots into your movement, now have the balls to own them. Every time something happens, you either make excuses or you claim they have nothing to do with the movement. What a load of Bull!
We are call camping, but the people that nearly raped a woman... even though they were camping with the rest of you, they were not part of the movement. The vandals that tore of the banks on Capitol Hill, strangely NOT with the movement. Of course any time anyone starts anything that might be seen as violent, they are plants from the police or Wall Street.
Grow up and own this crap. It belongs to you! When the tea party had some jerk screaming racist vitriol, you all pinned him to the movement, even with evidence that the rest of the Tea Party ran the guy off. SO you get to own the rapes, fights, drug abuse, poop in the bushes and streets, and all the other garbage that comes with OS, including this lying woman.
Why anyone would bed a woman that looks like Sloth from Goonies is beyond me. Try and defend drug and alcohol abuse in the monement now...
If this were some Tea Party protestor, the Occupy supporters would be dancing around a bonfire calliing for that person's head. But, since it is one of their own, they make excuses for her, and everyone needs to have compassion. The double standard is sickening.
You sucked these idiots into your movement, now have the balls to own them. Every time something happens, you either make excuses or you claim they have nothing to do with the movement. What a load of Bull!
We are call camping, but the people that nearly raped a woman... even though they were camping with the rest of you, they were not part of the movement. The vandals that tore of the banks on Capitol Hill, strangely NOT with the movement. Of course any time anyone starts anything that might be seen as violent, they are plants from the police or Wall Street.
Grow up and own this crap. It belongs to you! When the tea party had some jerk screaming racist vitriol, you all pinned him to the movement, even with evidence that the rest of the Tea Party ran the guy off. SO you get to own the rapes, fights, drug abuse, poop in the bushes and streets, and all the other garbage that comes with OS, including this lying woman.
Why anyone would bed a woman that looks like Sloth from Goonies is beyond me. Try and defend drug and alcohol abuse in the monement now...
347
Dude, good job covering this. Something like this is really tempting to blow out of proportion because it would be horrifying if true. Way to hang in and get all the facts.
It seems she probably uses this story to get sympathy when the police harass her. Which... can you blame her?
It seems she probably uses this story to get sympathy when the police harass her. Which... can you blame her?
348
I am seriously disturbed by the callousness exhibited in the Stranger article. Her lack of desire to go back to the hospital where she miscarried days before is used as justification to cast doubts on whether she was pregnant or not? Really? As someone who suffered a miscarriage, I can tell you I was an emotional wreck afterward for weeks. I too could not return to the hospital I had been taken to for a considerable length of time-it was emotionally too difficult for me. This unbelievable attitude of "prove to me you went through this horrific experience *right now* thereby fulfilling my needs and F your emotional health" sickens me. The fact that no one seems to be calling him out for his inappropriate and heartless behavior does as well. And btw, even if it turns out that she wasn't pregnant, it doesn't excuse his behavior-he did not know, meaning he was fine putting a grieving woman through more stress simply to satisfy his own need...that is simply sad.
349
This is the newest stuff the girl is putting out there I just found it on Facebook. Why does she keep avoiding the written from the strangers requests to help her with getting paperwork???
http://m.digitaljournal.com/article/3148…
http://m.digitaljournal.com/article/3148…
350
Ok if you read both articles and compare them she is telling different stories in one she is stating.that the baby was fine on the 15th and on the 20th she lost the baby but in the other article or.farther along in this.article she states that when she got to the hospital after being sprayed that the Drs stated their was no heartbeat. So what day was it on(if she was actually pregnant) did she lose the baby the 15th when she was taken to the hospital and was.told it was dead or on the 20th 5 days after she was told the baby was fine????
351
This pregnancy/miscarriage/omg i'm homeless but i was ready for a kid cuz now my parents will help me/omg i got pepper sprayed like 834957394 other people have story is a crock of crap, and that is painfully obvious.
352
Hey Legal Eagle, if you knew the law no one can be charged for wrongful death etc because the supposed fetus was under so many months and she has to prove that it was caused by someone else not by an act of god. A fetus is not classified as a baby till a few months along.... This chick is probably just wanting money to put towards occupy or herself.
353
Question what is the update with the case anyways???? The last we heard from the 22nd Jennifer was going to go to the hospital to get her medical records today or yesterday from what she told the reporter. Well has she.done this??? And a Dr cannot state she lost a baby due to being kicked or most of all pepper-sprayed a person can lose a baby so easily when pregnant in the first 3 months.
357
Has it been confirmed yet that this girl was lying about her pregnancy yet? It seems everyone is still fuming about a loss and the tragedy and police are meanies. It looks all the more likely that she may have lied about even being pregnant in the first place. Stop focusing on dead babies when there is not proof. This chick claimed to be about 3months pregnant some 9 weeks prior to the pepper spray incident. She was squatting in a house and claimed she was miscarrying then. OK....excessive force may have happened at the protest but I think this chick is making the pregnancy up.
358
@348. learn to read news. dominic didn't come out and tell her to get those records in that later update. he was quoting a different reporter. News read fail. He's just doing the fair news act and showing all sides of a story.
359
She was given medical release forms to sign and she put them in her pocket and the reporter offered to drive her to and from the hospital and she refused stating she would go the following week but never did. All she was asked was to show proof and she hasn't.
360
What is totally irresponsible are the PIGS who kicked her in the belly and sprayed her with pepper spray. As God is my witness these PIGS will go to HELL!!!
361
Did they really kick her there is no proof. Months later she still has not produced the medical records to state anything. She is accusing without proof!!! Btw in one report she stated it was a bike and then another report two cops kick her she keeps changing her stories and coming up with excuses.
364
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365
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366
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