Slog
News & ArtsWednesday, November 16, 2011
LGBTQITSLFA Rose Pedals Demands a Correction
Posted by Dan Savage on Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 3:40 PM
The Eugene GBer Tweets that she's a trans woman and demands a correction:
I wrote earlier—based on info I'd been given—that the Eugene GBer wasn't trans. I stand corrected. This is the GBer who threw the [plastic] jar at my head, not the GBer who was arrested; that was one of the GBers at UCI.
4
"kinky queer radical anarcha-feminist pansexual polyamorous trans dyke who's into DIY"
That's cute.
That's cute.
5
Rose Pedals' bio: "kinky queer radical anarcha-feminist pansexual polyamorous trans dyke who's into DIY".
Compartmentalization much?
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=compartmentalizatio…
Compartmentalization much?
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=compartmentalizatio…
8
Not to be "transphobic" but I find it difficult to take transwomen seriously when they take on common drag queen monickers as names.
This lady is a misguided, victim-minded troll. Only trolls would so obstinately ignore Dan's CLEAR and CONSISTENT support of the trans community.
This lady is a misguided, victim-minded troll. Only trolls would so obstinately ignore Dan's CLEAR and CONSISTENT support of the trans community.
9
Before the Twitter @pogrom begins on Rose, it should be submitted for the record that she's in a band called Sequin Destroy, which, in my eyes, goes a long way toward redemption of this misguided attack.
It's probably not impossible for Dan to imagine his 22-year old up to something like this. Rose just needs to set her sights a bit higher—starting with, I dunno, and actual enemy of gender identity equality—which shouldn't be incredibly hard to find.
It's probably not impossible for Dan to imagine his 22-year old up to something like this. Rose just needs to set her sights a bit higher—starting with, I dunno, and actual enemy of gender identity equality—which shouldn't be incredibly hard to find.
10
And she's making a "zine"? Cause what the world really needs is another gender queer "zine"? /eyeroll
How about this Rose, whether you're assaulting sex advice columnists or reliving alternative publishing trends from the 90's, try focusing on one word: "praxis"!
What's praxis? I'm sure you know. I'm sure i your college conversations about gender theory and queer activism you use, abuse and generally throw praxis around with reckless abandon.
I'm just not sure you know what praxis ISN'T. Because it's not glitter-bombing Dan Savage and it's not publishing a "zine"!
How about this Rose, whether you're assaulting sex advice columnists or reliving alternative publishing trends from the 90's, try focusing on one word: "praxis"!
What's praxis? I'm sure you know. I'm sure i your college conversations about gender theory and queer activism you use, abuse and generally throw praxis around with reckless abandon.
I'm just not sure you know what praxis ISN'T. Because it's not glitter-bombing Dan Savage and it's not publishing a "zine"!
13
So this woman was offended that Dan didn't ID her as a trans woman. Most of the trans women I know would have taken that as a compliment, knowing that they blend in so well, that they are not seen as a trans woman, but simply as a woman, the same as any cisgender women out there (can we PLEASE find some other prefix besides "cis-"?). No doubt if Dan HAD ID'ed her as trans, she would have bitched about that as well. Dan, this is one of those times where no matter what you do, someone is bound to get offended.
14
I have known four or five trans people casually and I know it must be me, but they all seem so bitter. Maybe they find the hormones difficult to deal with. Anyway, people like this aren't doing trans people any favors.
15
Better ways to make your point than fucking throwing glass jars. You lost *any* sympathy I *might* have had.
16
Watch out Helena Handbasket, Hedda Lettuce, Helen Bed, Pearl Diamond, Miss Coco Peru and other twee named gender stars! We have an emerging talent on our hands!
17
@13: Eh, in this context Dan was observing that the person arrested for "bombing" did not consider themselves trans, so being outraged IN THIS CONTEXT is understandable (even if I find her a fool, otherwise.)
"Passing" isn't everyone's ultimate goal, you know.
"Passing" isn't everyone's ultimate goal, you know.
18
Ugh, I hate that bio more than anything. I do not want to know that much about any person's sexual life/preferences. Newsflash Rose, you aren't just who you fuck.
19
Sorry, Dan, but you're clearly a "fucking liar." There was no mistake here; you had plenty of time to get to know the people involved while they were throwing things at you and yelling. Your plea of ignorance is only further evidence of your sinister anti-trans agenda.
But, no, seriously, this kind of angry victim-minded lashing out is really sad, and it's exactly what you expect to emerge from an unaccepted community. All Rose gets from me is pity, and if that pisses her off, well, tough shit.
But, no, seriously, this kind of angry victim-minded lashing out is really sad, and it's exactly what you expect to emerge from an unaccepted community. All Rose gets from me is pity, and if that pisses her off, well, tough shit.
20
I'd say sick the flying monkeys on them, but that would just give them more martyrdom material.
So it was some asshole liberal arts college student. Surprise Surprise. FYI, Michele Foucalt and Judith Butler did not write bibles, they wrote theories.
So it was some asshole liberal arts college student. Surprise Surprise. FYI, Michele Foucalt and Judith Butler did not write bibles, they wrote theories.
21
So.... all this angsty intransigence. Should I view it the same way a newly converted religious folk gets a little too excited for their lord?
22
getting pretty sick of having to apologize for my community. I think I'll stop doing so and just ask everyone to realize that not all of us transfolk are buried in "victim" status and/or bitter. Some of us are rather adorable and funny to be around.
23
I have no doubt that this pack of leotards also submitted the trans question as a way to force the topic so they could glitter bomb him.
24
Dan, posting that twitter feed was a bad idea. You will have a hard time reigning in your flying monkeys, and really it's just glitter, absurd as the attacks were.
Still, the last thing any trans folk need are more attacks, however misguided they may be.
It's probably exactly what she wants, anyway. She can't wait to show everyone that she's such a victim.
Still, the last thing any trans folk need are more attacks, however misguided they may be.
It's probably exactly what she wants, anyway. She can't wait to show everyone that she's such a victim.
25
Also, Vince - I hate to be a brat, but it might be you. It can be difficult to find a balance with hormones, and introducing hormonal changes to the body can cause a degree of behavioural disruption.
Anyway, I can happily count a number of trans folk among my dearest and friends, and none of them act like angry victims with chips on their shoulders.
Anyway, I can happily count a number of trans folk among my dearest and friends, and none of them act like angry victims with chips on their shoulders.
26
How the fuck are you supposed to be able to identify someone as trans?!?
If it looks like a girl, and call her a girl and she freaks the fuck out because you should have call her a trans... wtf? If she or he likes labels that much, maybe it should wear a huge fucking sign! What a fucking idiot.
Anarcha-feminist is a Paultard with sand in her vagina.
Also: DIY, does that mean she cut her dick herself?
FML -_-
If it looks like a girl, and call her a girl and she freaks the fuck out because you should have call her a trans... wtf? If she or he likes labels that much, maybe it should wear a huge fucking sign! What a fucking idiot.
"kinky queer radical anarcha-feminist pansexual polyamorous trans dyke who's into DIY"
Anarcha-feminist is a Paultard with sand in her vagina.
Also: DIY, does that mean she cut her dick herself?
FML -_-
27
It's really hard to identify the weight of something when it is being thrown at you. If glitterbombing Dan Savage is your way of attacking your oppressor you clearly don't really understand who you're up against. Children.
28
@13, seriously where the fuck did "cisgender" come from?! I never agreed to be identified by this terminology or accepted this label.
29
This has really just gotten out of hand. I feel bad for the kind and sane trans persons (hi Hawke @13!) who now feel the need to be worried about getting tarred with the same brush as these young and somewhat idiotic GBers.
30
@23 That was my thought, too. I don't understand how this whole glitterbombing thing works, but I assume these people don't carry glitter with them everywhere just waiting to be offended. It had to be a coordinated, pre-meditated attack. I can't believe I just typed that. God this is stupid.
33
I dream of a day when merely making the DISTINCTION of person's status as trans or cis is IN ITSELF an occasion to clutch one's pearls!
Oops. "Clutching pearls" is a term that is IN ITSELF should be deemed offensive!
Oops! Attempts at humor in any former is ALSO offensive!
Help me! I'm choking on my own political correctness -- which is also an offensive term, I'm sure!
Oops. "Clutching pearls" is a term that is IN ITSELF should be deemed offensive!
Oops! Attempts at humor in any former is ALSO offensive!
Help me! I'm choking on my own political correctness -- which is also an offensive term, I'm sure!
35
@22: Rock on. Most of us here know the score--it's really a shame that the Vinces of the world a) give awesome people like you this kind of shit to deal with and b) give us Savagites a bad name.
36
My favorite part: the original blogpost got almost EVERY fact wrong and hardly apologized, but Dan's being excoriated for not knowing whether his attackers were trans and not knowing what the fucking JAR was made of.
37
This:
"Not to be "transphobic" but I find it difficult to take transwomen seriously when they take on common drag queen monickers as names."
Rose Pedals. Trans activist. Might as well call yourself, "Lois Angeles".
You make a plea to be taken seriously and, unlike Dan, you hide behind a *****fake**** name.
Come out of your closet, COWARD!
"Not to be "transphobic" but I find it difficult to take transwomen seriously when they take on common drag queen monickers as names."
Rose Pedals. Trans activist. Might as well call yourself, "Lois Angeles".
You make a plea to be taken seriously and, unlike Dan, you hide behind a *****fake**** name.
Come out of your closet, COWARD!
39
@22: Absolutely, i don't think this ideological purity test reflects poorly on everyone else.
@37: Er, I believe that she should actually have to come up with a specific reason and logic why she threw it if she's going to call herself an activist, but this sort of internet bravado is dumb.
There would be nothing wrong with her using a pseudonym, in and of itself.
@37: Er, I believe that she should actually have to come up with a specific reason and logic why she threw it if she's going to call herself an activist, but this sort of internet bravado is dumb.
There would be nothing wrong with her using a pseudonym, in and of itself.
40
She was the one who physically threw the glass jar and she let her friend get arrested for it?
How sweet.
How sweet.
41
How Not to be Defensive When Accused of Transphobia
http://www.questioningtransphobia.com/?p…
I think points 4 and 7 are valid here. There may be some value in talking with some trans women at some point about their perspective on some of this stuff, since it seems like the majority of your experience under the transgender umbrella has been with trans men, but I don't think you're doing yourself favors by continuing to address the vague accusations of the glitterbombers.
http://www.questioningtransphobia.com/?p…
I think points 4 and 7 are valid here. There may be some value in talking with some trans women at some point about their perspective on some of this stuff, since it seems like the majority of your experience under the transgender umbrella has been with trans men, but I don't think you're doing yourself favors by continuing to address the vague accusations of the glitterbombers.
42
@13,22(Hawke), you have my sympathy and support. After all, someone has to fight the good fight, since these glitterbombing activists don't.
43
@22-
"Some of us are rather adorable and funny to be around."
Yes! Quite a few of you are, which is why I'm lucky to count some of you among my friends (and "exes on good friendly terms").
Your community doesn't deserve to be misrepresented by this sanctimonious twat.
"Some of us are rather adorable and funny to be around."
Yes! Quite a few of you are, which is why I'm lucky to count some of you among my friends (and "exes on good friendly terms").
Your community doesn't deserve to be misrepresented by this sanctimonious twat.
44
@24 I gathered that Dan posted her Twitter handle so anyone interested could get the GBer's side of the story, but that may be an unfortunate unintended side-effect.
@28 Cis and Trans are terms used in chemistry (and I'm sure elsewhere) meaning same and opposite (in this case, groups arranged around a double bond, but that's not important to anyone). So when transgender was coined, I assume a transperson or trans-ally coined cis when they were looking for a complimentary term.
@28 Cis and Trans are terms used in chemistry (and I'm sure elsewhere) meaning same and opposite (in this case, groups arranged around a double bond, but that's not important to anyone). So when transgender was coined, I assume a transperson or trans-ally coined cis when they were looking for a complimentary term.
45
I wouldn't touch her twitter with a 10 foot ethernet cable. She just wants followers/comments/an exploding "activity" tab.
Hell, I want attention on twitter too, but I prefer to tweet stuff that's marginally respectable and along the lines of, "Woo hoo! Got an A on my midterm!"
Hell, I want attention on twitter too, but I prefer to tweet stuff that's marginally respectable and along the lines of, "Woo hoo! Got an A on my midterm!"
46
I'm acquainted with quite a few trans people and as far as I can tell they run the gamut of cool, fun, brilliant, sexy, flaky, boorish, bitchy, boring, annoying, and downright crazy — just like everyone else in this world. I feel bad for trans people who feel like they have to apologize for the crazy attention-whores in their community.
47
@8, 16, 37: The use of names that do not incorporate horrible puns is cisgenderonormative, and thus your disdain for Rose Pedals' name is thus inherently transphobic.
51
@28 In normal conversation, there is no need to use the term cisgender-man if you're a man. You just refer to yourself (and to anyone presenting as male) as men.
But in conversations about trans issues (like who gets to use the bathroom, or the changing room), it is helpful to have a way of talking about people with different backgrounds. At first, people found themselves talking about "trans-women" and "real women" or "natural women". That's the problem -- "real" and "natural" come with a lot of unhelpful, biased baggage. So (as said @44) an ally of the transgendered came up with 'cis'-gendered, to provide a neutral term to talk about people who were born the same gender they present. As long as you're willing to leave the room whenever transgender issues are being discussed, you'll probably never have to use these terms.
But in conversations about trans issues (like who gets to use the bathroom, or the changing room), it is helpful to have a way of talking about people with different backgrounds. At first, people found themselves talking about "trans-women" and "real women" or "natural women". That's the problem -- "real" and "natural" come with a lot of unhelpful, biased baggage. So (as said @44) an ally of the transgendered came up with 'cis'-gendered, to provide a neutral term to talk about people who were born the same gender they present. As long as you're willing to leave the room whenever transgender issues are being discussed, you'll probably never have to use these terms.
52
Update from the twitters! I have been following activity around her account, because I enjoy procrastination.
Two things:
1 - Hardly anyone is actually calling her out. One person wished her burnt alive, one gave a message of agreement, but mostly, people have been polite in pointing out that she has misread Dan's intentions, and acted poorly.
2 - Her bio now says: queer trans anarchist dyke DIY feminist mentally ill punk kid. (emphasis mine). Don't dare to comment on what she means by that move.
Also, man, do I not miss being an anguished college kid.
Two things:
1 - Hardly anyone is actually calling her out. One person wished her burnt alive, one gave a message of agreement, but mostly, people have been polite in pointing out that she has misread Dan's intentions, and acted poorly.
2 - Her bio now says: queer trans anarchist dyke DIY feminist mentally ill punk kid. (emphasis mine). Don't dare to comment on what she means by that move.
Also, man, do I not miss being an anguished college kid.
53
In college I knew someone who thought people shouldn't clap because it was insensitive to people who only have one hand. Ah, college.
54
People who are too lazy or too chickenshit to involve themselves in real, substantial activism tend to do shit like this. They don't want to actually take measures against real forces of homophobia or trans-phobia, but they want to coopt the identity of an activist. So they spend their efforts exploding in righteous outrage when their allies do things like forget to add "Q" to "LGBT" when giving a speech about equal rights.
These are simply people who desperately want to prove to the rest of their community that they've spent more hours studying every last minute detail of Queer Theory than anyone else. The way to prove this is to exhibit showy pseudo-outrage at petty little details that only a theory-obsessed savant would notice. The end result is pedantic bickering that only stands in the way of actual action.
Nobody cares how deeply you've delved into vague academia: with activism, what matters is results, and I guarantee that Dan has done more to convince real people that transexuals deserve equal rights than any glitter-bombing wannabe revolutionary.
There's a reason Malcolm X didn't spend his time browbeating the Black Panthers into changing their name to the Aftican-American Panthers.
These are simply people who desperately want to prove to the rest of their community that they've spent more hours studying every last minute detail of Queer Theory than anyone else. The way to prove this is to exhibit showy pseudo-outrage at petty little details that only a theory-obsessed savant would notice. The end result is pedantic bickering that only stands in the way of actual action.
Nobody cares how deeply you've delved into vague academia: with activism, what matters is results, and I guarantee that Dan has done more to convince real people that transexuals deserve equal rights than any glitter-bombing wannabe revolutionary.
There's a reason Malcolm X didn't spend his time browbeating the Black Panthers into changing their name to the Aftican-American Panthers.
56
@55 the entire point is that there's a some distance between gender and biology, so that's not any better.
57
She's going after Dan because she's mad at authority, and she knows that he isn't going to be mean to her, press charges, or retaliate. It would be impossible to find an authority figure on Earth less threatening to her agenda than Dan Savage.
Her target illustrates her motivation. This has nothing to do with Dan, trans-phobia or trans-rights. She's angry, but too scared to confront the people at who she's truly angry. This is her rebellion with training wheels.
She'll either grow confident in herself and start protesting against her real enemies, or she'll play it safe venting her anger at her allies and continue to work against her own cause.
Her target illustrates her motivation. This has nothing to do with Dan, trans-phobia or trans-rights. She's angry, but too scared to confront the people at who she's truly angry. This is her rebellion with training wheels.
She'll either grow confident in herself and start protesting against her real enemies, or she'll play it safe venting her anger at her allies and continue to work against her own cause.
58
@55 "Bio" leaves the cisgendered still feeling that they are more authentic than the transgendered. But language doesn't necessarily go where activists want it to. In twenty years, we'll find out which term won out.
59
Glitter = an annoyance.
Jar = an assault.
I recommend a criminal charge to help her remember the difference.
The whole point of glitter is that it is nonthreatening and not harmful. When you throw the jar after the glitter, that kinda negates that point. Dumb people with anger management issues shouldn't become activists.
Jar = an assault.
I recommend a criminal charge to help her remember the difference.
The whole point of glitter is that it is nonthreatening and not harmful. When you throw the jar after the glitter, that kinda negates that point. Dumb people with anger management issues shouldn't become activists.
60
@22: Thank you for chiming in, I was beginning to get the impression that trans people tend toward being humorless, petulant, and miserable.
May you and I party together sometime.
May you and I party together sometime.
61
Hey, Hawke...
Will you email me?
savage @ the stranger dot com?
Thanks representing all the sane trans folks in this thread -- the vast and overwhelming majority of trans folks -- and drop me a line, please. Want to bounce something off you.
Thanks.
Will you email me?
savage @ the stranger dot com?
Thanks representing all the sane trans folks in this thread -- the vast and overwhelming majority of trans folks -- and drop me a line, please. Want to bounce something off you.
Thanks.
62
This is a tangent, but I feel compelled to point out that as politically motivated neologisms around gender and sex go, "cisgender" is actually one of the good ones: "cis" is the latin prefix for "this (the near) side", which is more or less the antonym of "trans", which is "across" or "on the far side of." Compared to constructions like "homophobia" (which, okay, is now so far embedded into common usage that there's no point in arguing, but we should have known better at the time) or god help us "womyn/wimmin", "cisgender" is a model of clarity, and we should be encouraging more of that.
And less of throwing heavy objects at the heads of our allies. Fuck's sake.
And less of throwing heavy objects at the heads of our allies. Fuck's sake.
63
geez, people, lay off already.
People do stupid things when they're in College. People who've had a pretty shitty life and live in a pretty hostile world may do stupider stuff in College.
She doesn't sound like she's equipped to handle the fallout from this. Have some decency and compassion for fuck's sake.
I understand Dan is upset - but he's a big guy and doesn't really need the horde piling on.
People do stupid things when they're in College. People who've had a pretty shitty life and live in a pretty hostile world may do stupider stuff in College.
She doesn't sound like she's equipped to handle the fallout from this. Have some decency and compassion for fuck's sake.
I understand Dan is upset - but he's a big guy and doesn't really need the horde piling on.
65
@63, I think 22 is old enough to take your lumps here, in Slog, when one does dumb stuff. I agree that large numbers of DanFans pummeling her on Twitter would be over the top. I also think death threats--even the stereotypical 'Die In A Fire'--are unnecessary and kind of halt discussion.
66
@51, there is something inherently bat shit about "for convenience of discussion we invented you a label--because the words you use to describe yourself made us feel bad--and all you have to do to avoid it if you're offended is just stay out of the conversation"!
67
66: the whole point is that the opposite of "trans" is not "normal." There's plenty of lefty language-games that are genuinely stupid, but this is not one of them, promise.
68
I'll admit it's just a negative emotional reaction to the word. But I don't like the way it bifurcates people into two groups and suddenly the GLB allies to transgender people are lumped together in conversations as belonging with the heteros. I don't think my performance of masculinity is equivalent to theirs and I don't like the way this crap groups us together. I have more in common with the gender expression of the trans men I know--gay or straight--then the straight non-trans men. And public restrooms have been dangerous places for us too!
69
@66: Oh please, while I've certainly seen it used like "breeder", there is still some potential academic use for "cis".
70
@67, and there we have it! The opposite of trans has to be something right? Some people are so fucking desperate to think in binary opposites they invent stupid, arbitrary, creepy-sounding categories because the vacuum is just to uncomfortable. Fuck that, there doesn't need to be an opposite to trans--that's the whole fucking point of the whole gender queer movement. We don't need to be one thing or another. And frankly insisting on calling people cisgender because they don't self id as trans totally shuts down the possibility that they ever have a moment where they connect to themselves in a way other than the gender they preform on a daily basis, and that sounds really fucking miserable.
71
@63 & 65, and others concerned about how Twitter is treating her:
https://twitter.com/#!/search/realtime/r…
There is no "DanFan horde piling on." One jerk told her to die in a fire, several have reiterated that Dan is the best kind of "enemy" for her cause to have, a couple have called her an idiot (which may be harsh, but rings true, and not of violence). And, in proof that she's not the only person on the internet with poor reading comprehension, she has plenty of support. One nutsack (who himself got chastised) aside, even those disagreeing with her have done so calmly and non-violently, which is more than can be said for her.
Regarding whether it was appropriate for Dan to share her tweet: She chose her venue. Dan didn't out her, she outed herself, in a medium of her choosing. She wanted the attention, and she got it. While she may be acting like an angry, scared kid, she's an adult who made a series of adult decisions, which have consequences. Let her community (in this case, Twitter) remind her about appropriate behavior. Whether she sees it or not, the response there has been very reasonable. And let's hope that she come out of this with some better perspective on the world at large.
https://twitter.com/#!/search/realtime/r…
There is no "DanFan horde piling on." One jerk told her to die in a fire, several have reiterated that Dan is the best kind of "enemy" for her cause to have, a couple have called her an idiot (which may be harsh, but rings true, and not of violence). And, in proof that she's not the only person on the internet with poor reading comprehension, she has plenty of support. One nutsack (who himself got chastised) aside, even those disagreeing with her have done so calmly and non-violently, which is more than can be said for her.
Regarding whether it was appropriate for Dan to share her tweet: She chose her venue. Dan didn't out her, she outed herself, in a medium of her choosing. She wanted the attention, and she got it. While she may be acting like an angry, scared kid, she's an adult who made a series of adult decisions, which have consequences. Let her community (in this case, Twitter) remind her about appropriate behavior. Whether she sees it or not, the response there has been very reasonable. And let's hope that she come out of this with some better perspective on the world at large.
72
@28 That is actually the *point*. We, as the privileged majority, get to define words all the time wirh respect to the other. So here, the trans community points this out, by giving us a label cis- (from a chemistry term). It's actually a very useful point, because it shows us how intrinsic the assumption that everyone is congruent with their bodies (I think I am a woman, and my body type is also that of a woman -- but there's no *word* for that . Until now.
We don't like the word? Tough snookums.
We don't like the word? Tough snookums.
73
Luke: if we lived in utopia, I would agree with you. But we do not. Instead we live in a flawed, fallen world where -- other factors being held equal, which obviously they rarely are -- people who's gender identity doesn't match with their initial phenotypical inheritance have a harder row to hoe than those who's identity and physicality are congruent. Also, we live in a world where "transgender" is used with pseudo-clinical and pejorative overtones: being trans is a problem to be medically fixed. Calling you (or me) "cisgender" doesn't suddenly exile us to some metaphorical siberia, it just acknowledges that that difference exists, and that our gender/physical congruence is just as much an accident of birth and luck as a transperson's gender/physical discongruence.
Also, dude, breathe. Don't be that guy who freaks out when someone applies a label to you that you haven't personally adopted yet. It's not always a bad thing.
Also, dude, breathe. Don't be that guy who freaks out when someone applies a label to you that you haven't personally adopted yet. It's not always a bad thing.
74
@71, I just checked there and I count three inappropriate commenters, not one. And @65, I said that large numbers 'would be' unnecessary; I hadn't looked over there until just now.
Are we in any substantive disagreement, here? I don't think that we are. I've been wrong before, and hopefully will again.
Are we in any substantive disagreement, here? I don't think that we are. I've been wrong before, and hopefully will again.
76
@ Hawke, Thank you. I'm equally confused by this. She seems to find it offensive when she is simply treated as a woman. One would think that this would be a compliment. I understand why she might want to set the record "straight", but it is hardly worth calling someone a liar when they assume that you were born into a body of the gender you truly are.
77
@70 - so it's fine for you (gender queer) to tell me (comfortably cisgendered) how I should talk about myself? Gender's a spectrum. Every color in the rainbow has a name, even if we don't always agree on which one fits. See @54 - nobody on this thread is trying to threaten your gender expression. Objecting to strict binaries is great, but throwing out all labels leaves us no language to have a conversation. Don't like being called cisgender? How convenient that genderqueer is an existing term with an established meaning, amirite? My identity is more than the relationship between my biology and my gender expression. And so is yours, right? We are very fortunate to be able to worry about these things; it will serve our growth best to be open to those who want to be (a productive) part of the conversation, rather than shutting them down over terminology.
78
@74 - my bad! And no, no substantive disagreement from me. I think that for the most part, the "horde" that Dan has built in inherently less shitty than other hordes, though there are certainly those who miss the finer points.
80
@65 and 71 - it's not the age alone that gives me pause. As noted above, she describes herself as mentally ill. She threw a jar at someone. None of this sound particularly stable to me. And yeah, she picked the medium and the fight, but that doesn't mean she knew what she was getting into.
And so I wonder what the point of ridiculing her (see, eg. 4, 5, 6, 10, 12), calling her an idiot etc. is. And frankly (and I have said that before) the dynamics of these comments remind me a lot of bullying. It might be that she's a tough woman who can take it. But there is also a chance that the contempt poured out over her does actual damage to a person that already sounds hurt. People can be profoundly affected by the type of stuff that's written about them online. If there is even a small chance, that those comments do actual damage - say, trigger some type of breakdown - is it really worth it?
And so I wonder what the point of ridiculing her (see, eg. 4, 5, 6, 10, 12), calling her an idiot etc. is. And frankly (and I have said that before) the dynamics of these comments remind me a lot of bullying. It might be that she's a tough woman who can take it. But there is also a chance that the contempt poured out over her does actual damage to a person that already sounds hurt. People can be profoundly affected by the type of stuff that's written about them online. If there is even a small chance, that those comments do actual damage - say, trigger some type of breakdown - is it really worth it?
81
@80
Rose has posted at Bilerico, Slog, and on her Twitter that she's upset she didn't get the chance to cause physical harm to Dan. She seems pretty proud of it too. I think she deserves to be called out.
Rose has posted at Bilerico, Slog, and on her Twitter that she's upset she didn't get the chance to cause physical harm to Dan. She seems pretty proud of it too. I think she deserves to be called out.
82
Sure, lots of us were righteous dipshits when we were in college, too. But I think there is more going on to generate all this venom from the militant trans crowd.
Some of it may be that gays have gotten some employment protection, marriage equality in some states (but not on a federal level), etc, etc. And mostly, the trans community hasn't. Some of them get very upset if a group is pushing for LG or LGB rights with going for the whole alphabet. And on the one hand, Yeah, it's wrong for anyone to be denied their human rights and all of it should have been corrected decades ago. But in actual politics-of-the-possible: the smaller net succeeds before the big net does. And, guess what? Out gays in the workplace, Massachusetts not becoming cats and dogs together in the street, Disney et al extended partner benefits - all of that HELPS trans people. It normalizes and personifies people who push many gender boundaries.
Yea, Natives shouldn't have had to wait decades after women could vote who shouldn't have had to wait for decades after black men could vote who shouldn't have had to wait four score and seven years after the white guys. But the tent couldn't have been opened that wide in 1863, as much as it should have been.
Each newly accepted minority group makes it easier for the next. And each expansion of full franchise as a citizen is coming faster than the last.
Some of it may be that gays have gotten some employment protection, marriage equality in some states (but not on a federal level), etc, etc. And mostly, the trans community hasn't. Some of them get very upset if a group is pushing for LG or LGB rights with going for the whole alphabet. And on the one hand, Yeah, it's wrong for anyone to be denied their human rights and all of it should have been corrected decades ago. But in actual politics-of-the-possible: the smaller net succeeds before the big net does. And, guess what? Out gays in the workplace, Massachusetts not becoming cats and dogs together in the street, Disney et al extended partner benefits - all of that HELPS trans people. It normalizes and personifies people who push many gender boundaries.
Yea, Natives shouldn't have had to wait decades after women could vote who shouldn't have had to wait for decades after black men could vote who shouldn't have had to wait four score and seven years after the white guys. But the tent couldn't have been opened that wide in 1863, as much as it should have been.
Each newly accepted minority group makes it easier for the next. And each expansion of full franchise as a citizen is coming faster than the last.
84
I don't know about y'all but the thing that still bothers me the most about this whole affair is that somewhere along the line, the transgendered community decided that the term "freak" is a derogatory term for trans folk and is no longer allowed to be spoken in any context whatsoever. I refuse to cede that word.
85
I won't cede the word either. The insult comes from context. I'd never use it to refer to a trans person in the sense of trans = freak. But if they were getting their freak on in some way that has nothing to do with being trans, then in a joking manner I have been known to call close friends a freak. the gods know I certainly get my freak on, from time to time.
86
"And frankly (and I have said that before) the dynamics of these comments remind me a lot of bullying"
Making fun of someone for choosing to be a terrible individual != making fun of someone for being gay/trans.
If it's the same thing to you, you're incapable of nuance and should probably ponder things more before you unhinge your jaw.
Making fun of someone for choosing to be a terrible individual != making fun of someone for being gay/trans.
If it's the same thing to you, you're incapable of nuance and should probably ponder things more before you unhinge your jaw.
88
@Hawke, 85 et al: you're awesome. You sound fun to party with.
@everyone who is bothered by the term "cisgendered"- count me in the camp that doesn't get why it is in any way offensive or offputting, or I think one person even said "creepy"??
Maybe that's because I'm a scientist, and the terms cis- and trans- instinctively make sense to me, and I'm grateful for the term cisgendered for bringing some clarity to the discussion. It makes it so much easier to keep track of what you're talking about. It makes it easier for me to remember what the term transwoman or transguy means, since it does sort of set up terms in parallel ( I dont want to say "opposition.")
Anyway, just speaking as a cisgendered woman here; I like the term. Because I do feel a bit squicky about fumbling around "normal" "born" "bio" to search for a term that just means "not trans" because, yeah... some of that sounds derogatory, like "omg thank FSM that I'm not trans," when I dont mean to convey that at all.
@everyone who is bothered by the term "cisgendered"- count me in the camp that doesn't get why it is in any way offensive or offputting, or I think one person even said "creepy"??
Maybe that's because I'm a scientist, and the terms cis- and trans- instinctively make sense to me, and I'm grateful for the term cisgendered for bringing some clarity to the discussion. It makes it so much easier to keep track of what you're talking about. It makes it easier for me to remember what the term transwoman or transguy means, since it does sort of set up terms in parallel ( I dont want to say "opposition.")
Anyway, just speaking as a cisgendered woman here; I like the term. Because I do feel a bit squicky about fumbling around "normal" "born" "bio" to search for a term that just means "not trans" because, yeah... some of that sounds derogatory, like "omg thank FSM that I'm not trans," when I dont mean to convey that at all.
89
@86 Here's some nuance to ponder:
"It was a light plastic jar that missed him, not a heavy glass one he dodged." -Rose Pedals
"It was a light plastic jar that missed him, not a heavy glass one he dodged." -Rose Pedals
90
Some Obama-like peacemaker needs to step in and invite Rose Pedals and Dan to sit down for a beer to soothe Savage nation and the trans community. If it worked for America, maybe it can work for this American microcosm.
91
In my opinion flying monkeys help move justice forward. I just hope she works through her anger and I'm not interested in furthering her possible desire to gather 15 minutes of fame or claim herself a victim of 'persecution' via Dan Savage.
92
Dan,
I know the constant bullying seems unending, but these ignorant wastes of space and air will never grow up and become good people. But, it does get better, as you get older they will matter less to your sense of worth, and as they get older they will mature into older and wiser idiots who speak less often. It gets better, while they get more bitter.
You have my sympathy Dan, thanks for all your hard work for the rights of all orientations. Your "It Gets Better" stuff has made a major world change and those attacking you have done nothing more than throw glitter and whine.
I know the constant bullying seems unending, but these ignorant wastes of space and air will never grow up and become good people. But, it does get better, as you get older they will matter less to your sense of worth, and as they get older they will mature into older and wiser idiots who speak less often. It gets better, while they get more bitter.
You have my sympathy Dan, thanks for all your hard work for the rights of all orientations. Your "It Gets Better" stuff has made a major world change and those attacking you have done nothing more than throw glitter and whine.
93
Ace Reporter Dan Savage hard at work.....
It wasn't even a trans that attacked him.!
no; wait- it WAS a trans.
and they were arrested but it sure wasn't Danny's fault.
No, sorry; they were detained.
and waterboarded. but never arrested...
oh-sorry gang- turns out they were taken out back and shot.
but dammit they deserved it.
cause.....
cause they threw an iron anvil at Danny's head!
No wait, it was a heavy jar!
no, hang on fans; it seems it was a light plastic jar....
no...no....this story is still developing-
wait; it was a baggie!
the possibly trans assailant threw an empty sandwich baggie at Danny"s head!
OMG! he could have been killed!!
It wasn't even a trans that attacked him.!
no; wait- it WAS a trans.
and they were arrested but it sure wasn't Danny's fault.
No, sorry; they were detained.
and waterboarded. but never arrested...
oh-sorry gang- turns out they were taken out back and shot.
but dammit they deserved it.
cause.....
cause they threw an iron anvil at Danny's head!
No wait, it was a heavy jar!
no, hang on fans; it seems it was a light plastic jar....
no...no....this story is still developing-
wait; it was a baggie!
the possibly trans assailant threw an empty sandwich baggie at Danny"s head!
OMG! he could have been killed!!
94
Glitter bombing is bullshit.
If you don't like what someone says, then hold your own damn forum to make your points heard. Glitter bombing is akin to spray painting an SUV, throwing ink on a fur coat, vandalizing a gay wedding chapel, or shouting down speakers whom you don't like.
Those who resort to fear, intimidation, and disruption merely prove they are unable to articulate a decent counter-argument.
If you don't like what someone says, then hold your own damn forum to make your points heard. Glitter bombing is akin to spray painting an SUV, throwing ink on a fur coat, vandalizing a gay wedding chapel, or shouting down speakers whom you don't like.
Those who resort to fear, intimidation, and disruption merely prove they are unable to articulate a decent counter-argument.
95
Dan, your efforts to be forthcoming on this are commendable. And, as a side benefit, they reveal your opposition in unflattering ways.
96
@86 I find it actually profoundly disrespectful when allies cannot ever object to the behavior of a person in the marginalized group in question. If I walk around as a cis person thinking that I can never ever dislike or disapprove with an individual transperson's behavior or disposition without threatening my own political cred, then I have serious unresolved issues to work through on my own, primarily involving guilt, cowardice and rank self-involvement.
I had white students at an experimental college (no grades, no tests, Foucault on nearly every syllabus) insist that they could NEVER on principle publicly disagree with a person of color. I even had a white student put it in writing in response to an assignment on black conservatives' memoirs. He wrote an excellent paper and then followed it with a one page apology about how he only wrote it because he had to honor my assignment but that I as the professor needed to know that he had no right writing such a thing as a white male.
I found those white students misguided on the whole, but occassionally loathesome in their cowardice and self-policing. I also think that many of the faculty at this place openly ecnouraged this never-ending deference of the privileged on any given political issue. I seriously got real tired real quick of students coming into my office and saying they wanted to do their research projects on "examining my own privilege as a [blank] person."
You don't respect people if you cannot even allow yourself to engage with them in an honest way--it actually means that you're prioritizing tending to your own guilt over actually connecting with the very people you claim to be in alliance with.
I had white students at an experimental college (no grades, no tests, Foucault on nearly every syllabus) insist that they could NEVER on principle publicly disagree with a person of color. I even had a white student put it in writing in response to an assignment on black conservatives' memoirs. He wrote an excellent paper and then followed it with a one page apology about how he only wrote it because he had to honor my assignment but that I as the professor needed to know that he had no right writing such a thing as a white male.
I found those white students misguided on the whole, but occassionally loathesome in their cowardice and self-policing. I also think that many of the faculty at this place openly ecnouraged this never-ending deference of the privileged on any given political issue. I seriously got real tired real quick of students coming into my office and saying they wanted to do their research projects on "examining my own privilege as a [blank] person."
You don't respect people if you cannot even allow yourself to engage with them in an honest way--it actually means that you're prioritizing tending to your own guilt over actually connecting with the very people you claim to be in alliance with.
97
@96 - I assume that's directed at me and not actually 86. No one here says to never criticize a trans person. My point is and was to question the necessity and wisdom of a good dozen of posts calling her names, making fun of her self-identification etc.
@86 - it's a bit rich to tell me that I don't see nuance and then don't get that
"reminds me of the dynamics of bullying" != bullying
I read comments like 4,5, 26 and they're mean-spirited, they attack the person (rather than what she did), they know that most people here are going to agree with them -- in short, I think what motivates someone to write such a comment is very similar to what motivates bullies: cementing in-group feeling, a bit of sadistic pleasure in putting someone down... no, it's not the same as bullying - but does it do any good?
@86 - it's a bit rich to tell me that I don't see nuance and then don't get that
"reminds me of the dynamics of bullying" != bullying
I read comments like 4,5, 26 and they're mean-spirited, they attack the person (rather than what she did), they know that most people here are going to agree with them -- in short, I think what motivates someone to write such a comment is very similar to what motivates bullies: cementing in-group feeling, a bit of sadistic pleasure in putting someone down... no, it's not the same as bullying - but does it do any good?
98
@80 I have my doubts that her description of herself as "mentally ill" is sincere, since most people suffering from an actual mental illness tend not to advertise it on twitter. The fact that she just changed it probably indicates that she is either trying to get more sympathy, or is using it in some sort of ironic way, like "oh, people are calling me crazy, so I'll describe myself as such." And if either of those is the case, it's pretty fucking rich to get pissy about Dan's supposed insensitivity, and then start abusing terms used to describe people who suffer from crippling, often lifelong illnesses. If you're going to demand hypersensitivity from everyone around you, you better be hypersensitive *to* everyone around you.
Of course, maybe she really is bipolar or something, in which case I apologize for getting defensive and wish her the best of luck with her treatment.
Of course, maybe she really is bipolar or something, in which case I apologize for getting defensive and wish her the best of luck with her treatment.
99
@97 If anyone's a bully it's her. She's the one who threw the fucking jar. She chose to be an anarchist. Tough.
100
@maddy811
Indeed.
If at some point people cannot engage honestly as individuals, with equal rights to agree and disagree, criticize and be criticized; if the existence of a past, or even a present, of oppression makes it impossible for spaces with such honest engagements to even exist; if 'the lessons of the past' are read as simply a lithany of personal guilt; then where will the seeds ever be from which true equality could grow?
There have to be spaces in which arguments stand or fall on their merits, not on the authority (personal, racial, sex-orientational or otherwise) of their authors. There have to be times at which people's opinions are taken seriously, agreed or disagreed with in their own terms, and discussed by people who agree to go on towards better conclusions. Or else, what is the point of even living together in the same society?
You don't respect people if you cannot even allow yourself to engage with them in an honest way--it actually means that you're prioritizing tending to your own guilt over actually connecting with the very people you claim to be in alliance with.
Indeed.
If at some point people cannot engage honestly as individuals, with equal rights to agree and disagree, criticize and be criticized; if the existence of a past, or even a present, of oppression makes it impossible for spaces with such honest engagements to even exist; if 'the lessons of the past' are read as simply a lithany of personal guilt; then where will the seeds ever be from which true equality could grow?
There have to be spaces in which arguments stand or fall on their merits, not on the authority (personal, racial, sex-orientational or otherwise) of their authors. There have to be times at which people's opinions are taken seriously, agreed or disagreed with in their own terms, and discussed by people who agree to go on towards better conclusions. Or else, what is the point of even living together in the same society?
101
You cannot rise above the constraints of gender as determined by society while simultaneously defining yourself by those same binary parameters.
"You should have known I was a transwoman." Idiot children.
"You should have known I was a transwoman." Idiot children.
102
@98, I actually agree with ravishd from the other thread. This young lady's identity is based on being rejected; she wants to be rejected, because this gives her the feeling that she is doing things right. The more people here offend her, the more she feels justified. If she's being rejected, she's fine, she's on the right road, the road less taken. Calling herself "mentally ill" is just further embracing rejectedness as her self.
103
I'm so glad that Rose Pedals is striking right at the heart of the repressive patriarchy. What a fucking idiot.
104
When I volunteered for several gay rights organizations in the 1990's, every time we had any interactions with the trans rights folks, we ended up getting burned. In the end we completely dropped trans issues off our agenda (a 'GLB' and not a 'GLBT') because of activists like her - which led to even more crappy totally unhelpful behavior on their part. (The trans activists in our city at that time never once contributed a dime or an hour of time, but demanded that a lot of our resources should go to their pet causes and then threw us under the bus when it didn't work out their way.) "Rose Pedals" is a really good example of the type of person that craps all over those people from whom they expect support and help.
106
I guess my issue with the concept of cisgender is that it reinforces a binary attitude towards gender that does not necessarily exist. As someone else said, it's a spectrum. I should not have to label myself as trans or cis. It should be up to me to define my own gender in my own way. If you presume I'm cis-gendered, then you are denying me the right to define my own gender, which seems to be something that the trans community is actively struggling against. I should have the right to identify as something other than cis or trans if I choose to. I identify as a gay man. Whether I'm cis or trans or something in between is really nobody's fucking business unless I choose to tell them.
107
@57 said it right. "Rebellion with training wheels." I guess that's what college is for, for some at least.
And, slightly off-subject...
@96, @100 (Maddy811, ankylosaur), THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!! This has been bothering me for 20 years, and you have pointed the way, thank you! A person with any sort of privilege is never allowed to say anything without being called a bigot! And what's the point of that? I finally decided to stop caring about any issue that I was on the privileged side of, because I wasn't allowed to have an opinion, and I wasn't allowed to feel frustrated about not being allowed to have an opinion, and in short, I was damned if I did and damned if I didn't.
I swear I'm going to print out your comments and pin them on my wall and memorize them so I can have an intelligent reply to anyone who says that whatever aspect of my biology disqualifies me from taking part in a conversation to which I've been invited.
And, slightly off-subject...
@96, @100 (Maddy811, ankylosaur), THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!! This has been bothering me for 20 years, and you have pointed the way, thank you! A person with any sort of privilege is never allowed to say anything without being called a bigot! And what's the point of that? I finally decided to stop caring about any issue that I was on the privileged side of, because I wasn't allowed to have an opinion, and I wasn't allowed to feel frustrated about not being allowed to have an opinion, and in short, I was damned if I did and damned if I didn't.
I swear I'm going to print out your comments and pin them on my wall and memorize them so I can have an intelligent reply to anyone who says that whatever aspect of my biology disqualifies me from taking part in a conversation to which I've been invited.
108
@18 Hey, that's what I said! I don't have an axe to grind with trans people. I have always tried to be kind and friendly. People generally respond in kind.
109
@106 -- Language is there to allow communication, not shut it down. The word 'cisgendered' now exists. Before, transgendered people and their allies might have accused you of not understanding the issues because you were 'naturally' your gender, or they might have said you present the same way you were born, or whatever. Now they can use 'cisgendered.' That doesn't mean that you have to bow down to them and accept whatever they tell you about yourself, or accept their view on whatever the topic is. You're free to stand up and say, "as a gay man, I feel [whatever way] about this issue." Or you can say, "as a US citizen," or "as someone who isn't trans," or whatever you like. Words are tools, not commands.
110
I'm old enough to remember when the opposite of heterosexual was "pervert."
I actually would have preferred something other than "gay" as the attempted umbrella term, or at least using it AS an umbrella term with two separate terms for men and women (a male parallel for lesbian.) Unfortunately, nobody asked me.
Transgender always seemed a perfectly clear and understandable term. If "cis" is the parallel prefix, then there it is. It's an odd term to me, because it's a new term to me. But I find it ridiculous to take offense to it, because the definition of it most definitely DOES apply to me.
I don't identify as "homo sapiens" in conversation, either, but I'm perfectly willing to acknowledge that it applies to me if there's a reason to make a distinction.
Until someone proposes another term (besides "normal", thank you) that is both accurate and a bit catchier, I'm okay with it. It feels like it's a term like "homophile" that isn't going to make the eventual cut - but if so, it will because a more user-friendly term takes its place, not because there's anything inherently wrong with it. The biggest problem with it is that it doesn't shorten well - "cisgender" may make sense as the complement to "transgender" but "cis" doesn't work as the complement to "trans" - it sounds too much like "sissy" to really take off. It seems sensible that the "right" word is a linguistic parallel, but it's not like "gay" or "queer" is parallel to "straight" - and we don't call ourselves "bent."
Time will tell.
I actually would have preferred something other than "gay" as the attempted umbrella term, or at least using it AS an umbrella term with two separate terms for men and women (a male parallel for lesbian.) Unfortunately, nobody asked me.
Transgender always seemed a perfectly clear and understandable term. If "cis" is the parallel prefix, then there it is. It's an odd term to me, because it's a new term to me. But I find it ridiculous to take offense to it, because the definition of it most definitely DOES apply to me.
I don't identify as "homo sapiens" in conversation, either, but I'm perfectly willing to acknowledge that it applies to me if there's a reason to make a distinction.
Until someone proposes another term (besides "normal", thank you) that is both accurate and a bit catchier, I'm okay with it. It feels like it's a term like "homophile" that isn't going to make the eventual cut - but if so, it will because a more user-friendly term takes its place, not because there's anything inherently wrong with it. The biggest problem with it is that it doesn't shorten well - "cisgender" may make sense as the complement to "transgender" but "cis" doesn't work as the complement to "trans" - it sounds too much like "sissy" to really take off. It seems sensible that the "right" word is a linguistic parallel, but it's not like "gay" or "queer" is parallel to "straight" - and we don't call ourselves "bent."
Time will tell.
111
@107: " A person with any sort of privilege is never allowed to say anything without being called a bigot! And what's the point of that? I finally decided to stop caring about any issue that I was on the privileged side of, because I wasn't allowed to have an opinion, and I wasn't allowed to feel frustrated about not being allowed to have an opinion, and in short, I was damned if I did and damned if I didn't."
Kneejerk defensiveness towards privilege and overstating the importance of one's own opinion is also something that needs to be kept in check, instead of immediately feeling victimized.
You are not obliged to find people warmly accepting every single possible personal opinion.
Kneejerk defensiveness towards privilege and overstating the importance of one's own opinion is also something that needs to be kept in check, instead of immediately feeling victimized.
You are not obliged to find people warmly accepting every single possible personal opinion.
112
I mean, I've put people off unintentionally, that's inevitable. But if you're ALWAYS setting someone off, the problem is either your ideas, your worldview, or your phrasing. The problem isn't "political correctness" or that you, as a privileged individual in some manner are locked out of offering any insight.
The problem is that your opinions may not be as insightful, helpful, or well-thought through as you might assume.
Don't let oversensitive people destroy your ability to express yourself, but always do a good self-check to examine whether you're being undersensitive or underinformed, or just plain privilege-blind on a subject before adding opinion. Opinions aren't facts, they're carefuly crafted personal anecdotes and they're not always going to be "valid" or useful outside your personal perspective..
The problem is that your opinions may not be as insightful, helpful, or well-thought through as you might assume.
Don't let oversensitive people destroy your ability to express yourself, but always do a good self-check to examine whether you're being undersensitive or underinformed, or just plain privilege-blind on a subject before adding opinion. Opinions aren't facts, they're carefuly crafted personal anecdotes and they're not always going to be "valid" or useful outside your personal perspective..
114
Just putting in a couple of cents worth of comment on the CIS/TRANS comments. Especially for Doctor Memory.
If this convention had anything at all to do with chemistry you would be quite correct, but unfortunately it isn't. The trans part of trans-gender is from lexicography by way of transitional. Biologically I am male. Nothing I can do at the present time to change that fact. My chromosomes are XY and that will not change without requiring a major change in the state of the art of cloning and memory transference. Luckily for me I also think of myself as male so it isn't exactly a handicap to my gender identity.
If you go with hard sciences for this discussion you still have to leave chemistry out of it because it then goes directly to biology and genetics. And when you get there you will discover that genetically speaking humans come in very few types.
Two primary types of XX (called female) and XY (called male)
One secondary type of XXY which is only identified by a syndrome name of Downs and the child usually if not always expresses as male
And a few outlier tertiary types like hermaphrodites that can be either XX or XY, genetic XY types that didn't process testosterone properly and express as the female default configuration and the true freaks of nature such as those that have doubled chromosomes and such.
Gender identity on the other hand has nothing to do with lexicography or biology. It also doesn't have anything to do with chemistry either so the CIS/TRANS pairing from chemistry STILL doesn't apply.
Back to lexicography we go now. Trans-gendered is the currently used term for people who feel (for whatever reason) that they were born into a body of the wrong biological gender. The terms "shemale" and "tranny" are the province of the porn and prostitution industries and as such are considered to be offensive by the majority of trans-gendered people. For all I know the people in those industries find the terms offensive when they aren't actually working but since I am not aware of knowing anyone in the that division of those industries I can't say. If I were a trans-gendered prostitute I would find them offensive but my adverts would still include those words so as to attract the most customers. Since I am not defined by the chemical interactions that allow my body to exist and continue to function I find the being defined by the chemical term of CIS to be somewhat offensive. I am a biological male. If a trans-gendered person find fault with that they don't have to call me that. They are free to use whatever term they wish altho if they have problems with using biological they could just go to using the term genetic-male (or genetic-female) to discuss those of us who have no issues with with our genetic and gender identities. Of course that could cause them problems since even with surgery a trans-gendered person is still genetically the biological gender they were born with.
This does of course leave out the Hermaphroditic/amorphous group that was assigned a sex at birth with good odds of it NOT being the genetically correct one but before they can truly call themselves anything they need a genetic test to see what they should be.
Does all this mean that I'm trans-phobic? Not in the least. I personally don't care one way or the other. It is your body and your lifestyle and in actuality it doesn't affect me either way you go. I am genetically male, my gender-identity is male, my sexuality is none of your business and my kinks don't really include having sex with a trans-gendered person altho I can conceive of situations where my kinks could cause it to occur.
Feel free to insult/flame me but if I bother to read them I am quite likely to judge them by the harsh standards of the early days of the net when crafting a flame post was an art form instead of the modern style of throwing vulgarities around willy-nilly. Regretfully I doubt that modern netizens can do better than a grade of C on that scale.
More...
If this convention had anything at all to do with chemistry you would be quite correct, but unfortunately it isn't. The trans part of trans-gender is from lexicography by way of transitional. Biologically I am male. Nothing I can do at the present time to change that fact. My chromosomes are XY and that will not change without requiring a major change in the state of the art of cloning and memory transference. Luckily for me I also think of myself as male so it isn't exactly a handicap to my gender identity.
If you go with hard sciences for this discussion you still have to leave chemistry out of it because it then goes directly to biology and genetics. And when you get there you will discover that genetically speaking humans come in very few types.
Two primary types of XX (called female) and XY (called male)
One secondary type of XXY which is only identified by a syndrome name of Downs and the child usually if not always expresses as male
And a few outlier tertiary types like hermaphrodites that can be either XX or XY, genetic XY types that didn't process testosterone properly and express as the female default configuration and the true freaks of nature such as those that have doubled chromosomes and such.
Gender identity on the other hand has nothing to do with lexicography or biology. It also doesn't have anything to do with chemistry either so the CIS/TRANS pairing from chemistry STILL doesn't apply.
Back to lexicography we go now. Trans-gendered is the currently used term for people who feel (for whatever reason) that they were born into a body of the wrong biological gender. The terms "shemale" and "tranny" are the province of the porn and prostitution industries and as such are considered to be offensive by the majority of trans-gendered people. For all I know the people in those industries find the terms offensive when they aren't actually working but since I am not aware of knowing anyone in the that division of those industries I can't say. If I were a trans-gendered prostitute I would find them offensive but my adverts would still include those words so as to attract the most customers. Since I am not defined by the chemical interactions that allow my body to exist and continue to function I find the being defined by the chemical term of CIS to be somewhat offensive. I am a biological male. If a trans-gendered person find fault with that they don't have to call me that. They are free to use whatever term they wish altho if they have problems with using biological they could just go to using the term genetic-male (or genetic-female) to discuss those of us who have no issues with with our genetic and gender identities. Of course that could cause them problems since even with surgery a trans-gendered person is still genetically the biological gender they were born with.
This does of course leave out the Hermaphroditic/amorphous group that was assigned a sex at birth with good odds of it NOT being the genetically correct one but before they can truly call themselves anything they need a genetic test to see what they should be.
Does all this mean that I'm trans-phobic? Not in the least. I personally don't care one way or the other. It is your body and your lifestyle and in actuality it doesn't affect me either way you go. I am genetically male, my gender-identity is male, my sexuality is none of your business and my kinks don't really include having sex with a trans-gendered person altho I can conceive of situations where my kinks could cause it to occur.
Feel free to insult/flame me but if I bother to read them I am quite likely to judge them by the harsh standards of the early days of the net when crafting a flame post was an art form instead of the modern style of throwing vulgarities around willy-nilly. Regretfully I doubt that modern netizens can do better than a grade of C on that scale.
117
@114, I don't believe in flame wars; I think it is possible to disagree in a civil and respectful manner. In that sense, I offer you this comment for your consideration.
I think you miss an important point about language, which basically is: it is not defined (solely) by logic or reality stricto sensu, in the way that scientific nomenclature is, but by usefulness and appeal. Words are used because they are felt to solve a problem, to address a need, to be useful for something -- not because they necessarily correspond to empirically-based taxonomies. (There's a lot of work on the -- quite significant -- difference between words for animals in colloquial language and the Lynnaean classification.)
The prefixes (originally adverbs/prepositions) "trans" and "cis" don't come themselves originallly from chemistry -- they are used in geography (consider 'Transjordan' and 'Cisjordan', used not long ago to refer to the two parts of the previous British Mandate of Palestine, on the West and East side of the Jordan river). They come from Latin, where 'trans' can mean 'beyond', and 'cis' 'this side of'.
In other words, there is no reason to be 'offended' at a 'chemical' meaning of cis-. Just like the prefix 'homo-' in 'homosexual' is not meant in the chemical sense of 'homogeneity' or 'homogeneous mixture', the prefix cis- in sexual identity has nothing to do with chemistry (or with geography, for that matter), but with a perceived need for a denomination of a certain group of people.
Even though your report on chromosome types is factually accurate and true, it does not address in the least the need for a word to design all those people who do feel (for whatever reason) that they were born in a body of the right biological gender. You propose "biological male" or "genetic-male", but I imagine this term would be better to design those people who were born with an XY 32nd chromosome pair, which, as your report clearly shows, does not include all cisgendered males (the male-expressed XXY's, for instance, plus the other atypical cases you mentioned).
Besides, since many transgendered people actually haven't change either their genetic makeup or their genitals, they actually are still the biological gender they were born with -- i.e., they are, say, genetic-males or biological males, but they are also trans-females, and therefore obviously not cis-male. It's their identity that matters for this word, not their genetic and genital make-up (just as XXY males are non-genetic-males -- not XY -- who are cis-males -- expressed male sex --, unless of course one of them wants to transition to female and then become trans-female).
So, when you see the conflicting semantic fields -- genetic reality (XX, XY, XXY, plus atypicals), the biological expression ('phenotypy') of biological reality (XY+XXY(most)+some atypicals, XX+XXY(a few)+some atypicals, plus non-classified atypicals), and the cultural construal / identity-based construal of said reality (most XY+XXY(most)+some atypicals+XX(a few), most XX+XXY(a few)+some atypicals+XY(a few)), surely you see the need for independent words, and why it is that "genetic-male" (=XY) doesn't do the work of "cismale" (=most XY+XXY(most)+some atypicals+XX(a few)).
So, the need for a word is obvious. The only remaining problem is you finding it offensive -- but this is only because you mistakenly assign a chemical interpretation to this particular prefix. I hope to have changed that: the prefix cis- is not intrinsically related to chemistry and therefore doesn't imply any definition of who you are by chemical criteria. Perhaps now you no longer feel slightly offended at being called "cismale"? It's not worse than being called "Homo sapiens" -- another label you also didn't choose for yourself.
More...
I think you miss an important point about language, which basically is: it is not defined (solely) by logic or reality stricto sensu, in the way that scientific nomenclature is, but by usefulness and appeal. Words are used because they are felt to solve a problem, to address a need, to be useful for something -- not because they necessarily correspond to empirically-based taxonomies. (There's a lot of work on the -- quite significant -- difference between words for animals in colloquial language and the Lynnaean classification.)
The prefixes (originally adverbs/prepositions) "trans" and "cis" don't come themselves originallly from chemistry -- they are used in geography (consider 'Transjordan' and 'Cisjordan', used not long ago to refer to the two parts of the previous British Mandate of Palestine, on the West and East side of the Jordan river). They come from Latin, where 'trans' can mean 'beyond', and 'cis' 'this side of'.
In other words, there is no reason to be 'offended' at a 'chemical' meaning of cis-. Just like the prefix 'homo-' in 'homosexual' is not meant in the chemical sense of 'homogeneity' or 'homogeneous mixture', the prefix cis- in sexual identity has nothing to do with chemistry (or with geography, for that matter), but with a perceived need for a denomination of a certain group of people.
Even though your report on chromosome types is factually accurate and true, it does not address in the least the need for a word to design all those people who do feel (for whatever reason) that they were born in a body of the right biological gender. You propose "biological male" or "genetic-male", but I imagine this term would be better to design those people who were born with an XY 32nd chromosome pair, which, as your report clearly shows, does not include all cisgendered males (the male-expressed XXY's, for instance, plus the other atypical cases you mentioned).
Besides, since many transgendered people actually haven't change either their genetic makeup or their genitals, they actually are still the biological gender they were born with -- i.e., they are, say, genetic-males or biological males, but they are also trans-females, and therefore obviously not cis-male. It's their identity that matters for this word, not their genetic and genital make-up (just as XXY males are non-genetic-males -- not XY -- who are cis-males -- expressed male sex --, unless of course one of them wants to transition to female and then become trans-female).
So, when you see the conflicting semantic fields -- genetic reality (XX, XY, XXY, plus atypicals), the biological expression ('phenotypy') of biological reality (XY+XXY(most)+some atypicals, XX+XXY(a few)+some atypicals, plus non-classified atypicals), and the cultural construal / identity-based construal of said reality (most XY+XXY(most)+some atypicals+XX(a few), most XX+XXY(a few)+some atypicals+XY(a few)), surely you see the need for independent words, and why it is that "genetic-male" (=XY) doesn't do the work of "cismale" (=most XY+XXY(most)+some atypicals+XX(a few)).
So, the need for a word is obvious. The only remaining problem is you finding it offensive -- but this is only because you mistakenly assign a chemical interpretation to this particular prefix. I hope to have changed that: the prefix cis- is not intrinsically related to chemistry and therefore doesn't imply any definition of who you are by chemical criteria. Perhaps now you no longer feel slightly offended at being called "cismale"? It's not worse than being called "Homo sapiens" -- another label you also didn't choose for yourself.
118
There's a real gap on the one hand between activists of any kind and the jus' folks of that same group. Whether you're dealing with religious types, political types or sexual types one can't avoid the fact that the activists are often profoundly confrontational, almost wholly focused and blinkered, frighteningly self- or group-absorbed, and almost always completely impossible to please and endlessly demanding.
Our glitter friends aren't assholes because they're trans or pro-trans, they're activists because they're assholes.
Our glitter friends aren't assholes because they're trans or pro-trans, they're activists because they're assholes.
120
@119, you're welcome. Oh, upon re-reading it, I noticed a mistake in my formulas: the last sentence of the penultimate paragraph, which is, in @117:
surely you see the need for independent words, and why it is that "genetic-male" (=XY) doesn't do the work of "cismale" (=most XY+XXY(most)+some atypicals+XX(a few)).
should actually be
surely you see the need for independent words, and why it is that "genetic-male" (=XY) doesn't do the work of "cismale" (=XY+XXY(most)+some atypicals).
The formula "most XY+XXY(most)+some atypicals+XX(a few)" should stand for 'male', not 'cismale'. This doesn't change the points made, of course, it's just one of those damn mistakes you make when writing down viva voce what you're thinking.
surely you see the need for independent words, and why it is that "genetic-male" (=XY) doesn't do the work of "cismale" (=most XY+XXY(most)+some atypicals+XX(a few)).
should actually be
surely you see the need for independent words, and why it is that "genetic-male" (=XY) doesn't do the work of "cismale" (=XY+XXY(most)+some atypicals).
The formula "most XY+XXY(most)+some atypicals+XX(a few)" should stand for 'male', not 'cismale'. This doesn't change the points made, of course, it's just one of those damn mistakes you make when writing down viva voce what you're thinking.
121
The general summary for word use, from a geneticist's point of view, would be (I think):
genetic/bio male or female = genotype
cismale or cisfemale = phenotype
male or female = socio/cultural identity
Since the overwhelming majority of bio males are cismale males, these differences are usually left out. But at least when explicitly discussing trans issues, the words do come in handy. If you don't like them, you can come up with your own, and, who knows? maybe they'll catch on and become the words of the future. Personally I'm not wedded to any words; if something other than trans and/or cis is in usage a few years from now, I'll switch without problems. Meanwhile, however, I don't see any big problems with trans and cis.
genetic/bio male or female = genotype
cismale or cisfemale = phenotype
male or female = socio/cultural identity
Since the overwhelming majority of bio males are cismale males, these differences are usually left out. But at least when explicitly discussing trans issues, the words do come in handy. If you don't like them, you can come up with your own, and, who knows? maybe they'll catch on and become the words of the future. Personally I'm not wedded to any words; if something other than trans and/or cis is in usage a few years from now, I'll switch without problems. Meanwhile, however, I don't see any big problems with trans and cis.
122
I'm so glad I have so many trans friends (I work in a gender advocacy centre) who aren't fucking obnoxious and are just normal people who happen to be trans, as opposed to the assholes who need to get a real fucking problem bothering Dan and verbally blowing themselves on this blog.
123
@111,112, Actually, I'm not even talking about opinions I've expressed. Indeed, I rarely offend anybody. I'm talking about people on the privileged side of whatever conversation being told that their opinions/experiences/actions/statement are invalid either only, or especially, because they have whatever privilege. For example, in this case, when Dan was called "cisgendered" in a name-calling way, as if being cisgendered automatically means he's transphobic, or as if it's some kind of crime in itself.
Or for another example, I recently read an article about something that took place decades ago, in which a group of black people made demands from a group of mostly white people. The white people who didn't meet the demand were called racist because they didn't meet the demand. The white people who did meet the demand were accused of only meeting the demand out of racist guilt. I mean, WTF?
@118 added a lot to my understanding of this. Perhaps I've only been so frustrated because some activists are so impossible to please, so touchy, and so willing to insult. I must say, it's funny how certain...I can't call them activists exactly, perhaps just socially powerful, eloquent, strongly-opinionated-on-particular-issues people...have been oh so the victim in the cases that concern their beloved issue, but can be oh so the asshole in cases where they are the privileged one.
Or for another example, I recently read an article about something that took place decades ago, in which a group of black people made demands from a group of mostly white people. The white people who didn't meet the demand were called racist because they didn't meet the demand. The white people who did meet the demand were accused of only meeting the demand out of racist guilt. I mean, WTF?
@118 added a lot to my understanding of this. Perhaps I've only been so frustrated because some activists are so impossible to please, so touchy, and so willing to insult. I must say, it's funny how certain...I can't call them activists exactly, perhaps just socially powerful, eloquent, strongly-opinionated-on-particular-issues people...have been oh so the victim in the cases that concern their beloved issue, but can be oh so the asshole in cases where they are the privileged one.
124
@123: "I'm talking about people on the privileged side of whatever conversation being told that their opinions/experiences/actions/statement are invalid either only, or especially, because they have whatever privilege."
Oh, in that case I just step back and let the infighting and squabbling continue unabated :)
"Or for another example, I recently read an article about something that took place decades ago, in which a group of black people made demands from a group of mostly white people. The white people who didn't meet the demand were called racist because they didn't meet the demand. The white people who did meet the demand were accused of only meeting the demand out of racist guilt. I mean, WTF?"
But that's not sincere discussion, that's a new angle on the classic grift. Con-artists use whatever angle they have, political, religious, and social institutions. I don't consider them worth worrying over, the conservatives conflate black identity and organization with a moneygrab enough as it is.
Oh, in that case I just step back and let the infighting and squabbling continue unabated :)
"Or for another example, I recently read an article about something that took place decades ago, in which a group of black people made demands from a group of mostly white people. The white people who didn't meet the demand were called racist because they didn't meet the demand. The white people who did meet the demand were accused of only meeting the demand out of racist guilt. I mean, WTF?"
But that's not sincere discussion, that's a new angle on the classic grift. Con-artists use whatever angle they have, political, religious, and social institutions. I don't consider them worth worrying over, the conservatives conflate black identity and organization with a moneygrab enough as it is.
125
"Perhaps I've only been so frustrated because some activists are so impossible to please, so touchy, and so willing to insult."
It's a self-ascripted term, you don't need to get a degree in activism or meet a certification or become one through years of training. There's no inherent quality-control. Some people feel stirred to up and "protect" a group which may or may not want them speaking for the whole.
Don't let the idiots get you down!
It's a self-ascripted term, you don't need to get a degree in activism or meet a certification or become one through years of training. There's no inherent quality-control. Some people feel stirred to up and "protect" a group which may or may not want them speaking for the whole.
Don't let the idiots get you down!
126
I don't have an issue with people who are transgender, but I hate this whole cis thing. I'm a woman-XX, born a woman, living as a woman, and will die as a woman. The word for that is woman (or female if you want to sound kind of weird). It doesn't make me better/superior/whatever your complaint is compared to a transwoman. A transwoman can refer to herself as a woman and doesn't have to identify as trans unless she chooses to or it is important to do so (relevant medical setting, etc.). Most people are not transgender or gender queer, so most people know what you mean when you say woman, female, man, or male. It might be a better idea for trans activists to work on anti-violence, employment protection, etc. instead of annoying people with these silly word games.
127
@undead ayn rand, I love you. Your posts are always so sensible, even-headed, and reality-connected, though it is odd to see such talk followed by the name "ayn rand".
128
I scrolled down to make the same comment that #127 wrote. undead ayn rand is always worth reading.
129
@126, it's not just a silly word game, it is actually quite useful in some contexts. You yourself referred to the difference between women and transwomen; in some contexts this difference is irrelevant, and they're all women; in other contexts (say, when talking about trans issues) the difference is relevant and using the word makes sense and is useful (as it was, for example, in your post).
The very fact that you had to say "I'm a woman-XX, born a woman, living as a woman" shows that you have no word to express this notion -- you need a succession of phrases (one of which, woman-XX, you yourself invented, since it's not in common usage). The word for this is not "woman", since "woman" includes transwomen (plus XXY people who manifested female sexual features and a few other genetic atypicals). Is "ciswoman" really that bad as a summary of "woman-XX, born a woman, living as a woman"? And even if you don't like this word, don't you see that a word with this meaning ('woman-XX, born a woman, living as a woman') is useful in some contexts, like discussing trans issues -- as you are, here?
Of course for most intents and purposes you don't need "cis". Most women are ciswomen, and in most situations even if a woman isn't a ciswoman this won't matter, so the word 'woman' is successfully used 95% of the time. But for the other 5%, is ciswoman really so bad?
The very fact that you had to say "I'm a woman-XX, born a woman, living as a woman" shows that you have no word to express this notion -- you need a succession of phrases (one of which, woman-XX, you yourself invented, since it's not in common usage). The word for this is not "woman", since "woman" includes transwomen (plus XXY people who manifested female sexual features and a few other genetic atypicals). Is "ciswoman" really that bad as a summary of "woman-XX, born a woman, living as a woman"? And even if you don't like this word, don't you see that a word with this meaning ('woman-XX, born a woman, living as a woman') is useful in some contexts, like discussing trans issues -- as you are, here?
Of course for most intents and purposes you don't need "cis". Most women are ciswomen, and in most situations even if a woman isn't a ciswoman this won't matter, so the word 'woman' is successfully used 95% of the time. But for the other 5%, is ciswoman really so bad?
130
I don't like this word, "cis". I am a woman, by which I mean I was born with a uterus, a vagina and a vulva, probably am XX, I potentially can make babies, I look female, I feel concerned by feminists issues,... However, I don't feel female, or male for that matter, though I don't have a problem with the type of genitals I have or the general shape of my body (by which I mainly mean I don't mind having boobs nor any female feature)
Now, I know I would have a better argument if I could offer a better word - I very much understand why natural or bio might be offensive - but I still dislike this word very much. And it bother me a little bit that the fact that this word upset so many of the people it supposed to apply to does not matter. For which other group -oppressed or not- has it ever been the case? Of course, it is not meant as a slur (though it obviously can and has been used as one ) but it says: since your not this, you're that. As it has stated several times, the world isn't alway binary. Cis means "on this side of", Trans means "on the far side"; that leaves us with a few other sides and the whole frigging middle to cover the complexity of reality. If I can use a comparison, I would say that I would feel the same if I was told "since you're not a lesbian, you're straight".
Which means, until someone find a better word, I'm still a not-transgendered person.
Now, I know I would have a better argument if I could offer a better word - I very much understand why natural or bio might be offensive - but I still dislike this word very much. And it bother me a little bit that the fact that this word upset so many of the people it supposed to apply to does not matter. For which other group -oppressed or not- has it ever been the case? Of course, it is not meant as a slur (though it obviously can and has been used as one ) but it says: since your not this, you're that. As it has stated several times, the world isn't alway binary. Cis means "on this side of", Trans means "on the far side"; that leaves us with a few other sides and the whole frigging middle to cover the complexity of reality. If I can use a comparison, I would say that I would feel the same if I was told "since you're not a lesbian, you're straight".
Which means, until someone find a better word, I'm still a not-transgendered person.
131
@Kyrie, by all means, suit yourself. If 'cis' doesn't please you, that's fine. Maybe someone will come up with another word that you'll like better.
Personally, "not-transgendered" doesn't appeal to me, since it's a negative definition, and also it's big and difficult to abbreviate ("n-trans"?). I like "cis" better. But I only get one vote, and ultimately whatever term most people accept will be the winner.
At least both of us agree that there is some need for a term that describes "not-transgedered people", right? In certain contexts it certainly comes in handy.
Personally, "not-transgendered" doesn't appeal to me, since it's a negative definition, and also it's big and difficult to abbreviate ("n-trans"?). I like "cis" better. But I only get one vote, and ultimately whatever term most people accept will be the winner.
At least both of us agree that there is some need for a term that describes "not-transgedered people", right? In certain contexts it certainly comes in handy.
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