Slog
News & ArtsSunday, November 13, 2011
Occupy Occupy Seattle Disrupts Pro-Occupy Wall Street Forum, Drives Away Supporters
Posted by Dominic Holden on Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 2:27 PM
- Occupy Seattle: How to lose friends and alienate people.
No sooner had the panel finished opening remarks last night than a woman scampered up onto stage and yelled, "Mic check!" It was an orchestrated effort by several dozen activists to use the People's Mic to interrupt a forum at Town Hall—a forum in favor of Occupy Wall Street, featuring three wonks and three activists from Occupy Seattle. Their stunt replaced what was supposed to be an informed discussion of the movement with an uninformative, shout-a-thon about process that consumed most of the evening. They booed opinions they disagreed with and drove supporters out of the building.
"I walked in supportive and left unsupportive," said 69-year-old Mary Ann, who declined to provide her last name. "I’m turned off by the negative shouts, repetition, and all I can think about is a cult. And I believe in every one of their damn principles."
Paula and Brian King also headed for the door early. "It was frustrating to listen to people shouting and interrupting," lamented Paula. Brian added, "We are leaving because they are looking inward at themselves and their eccentric process rather than reaching out to people."
Organized by Town Hall (and co-sponsored by The Stranger), the forum was intended to discuss the Occupy Wall Street movement, featuring three activists from Occupy Seattle and luminaries from labor, economics, and politics: Washington State Labor Council secretary-treasurer Lynne Dodson; Second Avenue Partners and progressive taxation activist Nick Hanauer; and GMMB political strategist Frank Greer. During opening remarks, JM Wong from Occupy Seattle declared that she wanted “no leadership from the Democratic Party or union bureaucrats. Nonprofits are trying to co-opt us."
Dodson, however, politely explained that labor unions are part and parcel with the Occupy movement's push for economic reform. "I like to consider myself a union activist, not a union bureaucrat," she said. "This is labor’s fight, this is our fight."
Whatever further insight the speakers planned for the 90-minute event was then cut short when the woman ran on stage. Activists had planned to interrupt the panel because, some said, they opposed the power dynamic created by speakers on stage talking into microphones. Although Occupy Wall Street uses the belabored people's mic—which involves one person speaking and the crowd repeating everything—to amplify the soft spoken and encourage free speech, last night it was used to silence the panel. The call and-response created an echoing cacophony. Despite pleas from several older audience members who couldn't hear well to let the panelists proceed, the Occupy activists demanded a vote to overtake the forum.
But Melanie Jackson got up on stage to protest: "Some of us who are old, we don’t understand when people are screaming. This process alienates people and takes a lot of time." By a show of hands, Nick Licata—the moderator, who some activists later claimed was a proxy for the partisan political establishment—determined the activists had been outvoted. The event would proceed as a planned, right? The activists refused to lose. They demanded another vote and even insisted that, before we could vote again, they would first explain how a General Assembly worked. So for 15 minutes, the activists read the rules and we repeated them back.
"Assembly time is precious," the man yelled without a hint of irony. "Assembly time is precious!" we all yelled back, wasting precious time.
Then they insisted that everyone discuss the issue among their neighbors. If people opposed, they were drowned out by the people's mic. So we talked about their proposal. One activist slept on the floor in front of the stage, spread eagle. The place reeked of BO. A man next to me worked through half a tin of chew. Eventually, we took another vote and activists demanded a count by hand.
It was 8:30 p.m. at this point, one hour after the event began, and we'd only heard opening statements. The forum was supposed to conclude by 9:00 p.m. "We have only a half hour left," Licata announced. "This is very interesting."
As the clock counted down, it was apparent that Occupy Seattle had repressed whatever thoughtful ideas the panelists brought to the stage and were willing to fill the time with chatter about unenlightening process. They wanted more power; they wanted to speak. They were also being rank hypocrites. Here is a group purporting to give people a voice and cut through the bureaucratic layers of government and capitalism. Instead, they silenced speech, quashed ideas, and replaced it with their own bureaucratic process reserved for a minority that wanted power. One gray-haired woman who was walking out put it like this: "It was very divisive. Now they are a little group, like the 1 Percent."
The activists lost the second vote, too. So the forum sort of proceeded, but now with occupiers booing speakers on stage when they disagreed and giving them the wrap-it-up hand gesture. For instance, Greer noted, "We learned in the civil rights movement and the anti-war movement, you can attract support or turn of support, and basically fail, and I don’t want you to fail." Despite his support, many activists booed and gestured that he stop talking.
Lots of people were leaving, angry—it was a stark contrast with stellar activism the week before.
Wong justified the interruption, saying, "We need to respect the movement that uses this process. I stick to it because it is a democratic process." Some shouted, "This is what Democracy looks like."
But the Occupy activists came off as disrespectful, hostile, and woefully misguided about what democracy looked like. The activists added zero new content, but in the process, prevented the speakers from sharing their knowledge (that's some democracy). Let's think if the tables were turned: These activists would be outraged if Town Hall set up a stack of speakers at the General Assembly and blasted them with an amplified panel discussion. It was equally selfish to destroy the panel with their People's Mic.
On his way out the door, Brian King added, "They think it is more important to purify themselves rather than connect with people who are not like themselves. They probably can’t get much further than they are right now."
2
It's the same core group doing this. Hiding behind a leaderless movement, they've become leaders themselves. Depose them.
3
That's too bad. They can't see everyone as enemies. They need all the friends they can get. But, please, blame it on a few impetuous youth and not the whole movement. Find those individuals and collectively correct them.
7
@1 I wouldn't go as far as arresting, BUT: this kind of behavior is exactly why I don't personally participate in Occupy.
There's room in any and every rights movement for lots of different kinds of discourse. The protest discourse isn't complex or nuanced - why should it be? It's about shocking the bystander into action (or out of their complacent ideas about civil society). So there are some moments in which the protest discourse is inappropriate. This forum - in which the underlying ideas behind Occupy would have been explored in depth - needed individual people to speak for a long time and really develop the terms as a basis for conversation. OWS protestors who believed that unfairly "privileges" an elite group of "experts" reveal two things: that they think a listening crowd is always made up of sheeple who have no opportunity to question what they hear (insulting at best); and that these particular OWSers don't think the things for which they are protesting deserve/merit deep reflection and nuanced articulation. 'Cause the demands of OWS are so clear and unproblematic, right? Not to mention their practical application, that's just so obvious!
This is the same bullshit logic that spurred anarchists to interrupt the meeting a few months back with the citizens and city about police culture after John Williams. Then, as now, the protestors couldn't conceive of the idea that a system of power (and its trappings, such as the town hall-style meeting) can work more or less well; they thought rather that it doesn't work at all, so the only logical action is to tear it down. And they succeeded doing that last night. Way to go, jackoffs.
There's room in any and every rights movement for lots of different kinds of discourse. The protest discourse isn't complex or nuanced - why should it be? It's about shocking the bystander into action (or out of their complacent ideas about civil society). So there are some moments in which the protest discourse is inappropriate. This forum - in which the underlying ideas behind Occupy would have been explored in depth - needed individual people to speak for a long time and really develop the terms as a basis for conversation. OWS protestors who believed that unfairly "privileges" an elite group of "experts" reveal two things: that they think a listening crowd is always made up of sheeple who have no opportunity to question what they hear (insulting at best); and that these particular OWSers don't think the things for which they are protesting deserve/merit deep reflection and nuanced articulation. 'Cause the demands of OWS are so clear and unproblematic, right? Not to mention their practical application, that's just so obvious!
This is the same bullshit logic that spurred anarchists to interrupt the meeting a few months back with the citizens and city about police culture after John Williams. Then, as now, the protestors couldn't conceive of the idea that a system of power (and its trappings, such as the town hall-style meeting) can work more or less well; they thought rather that it doesn't work at all, so the only logical action is to tear it down. And they succeeded doing that last night. Way to go, jackoffs.
8
Those kinds of douchebags are a big reason why I stopped getting involved in much activism outside of Wisconsin. It's not about progress. It's not about a goal. It's certainly not about respecting anyone. It's just about seizing power.
9
"I’m turned off by the negative shouts, repetition, and all I can think about is a cult. And I believe in every one of their damn principles."
Yes.
But you absolutely cannot blame this nonsense on the entire movement. There seems to have emerged a very unfortunate cadre of Old Comrades pulling this shit, primarily because they're the ones with the free time (and possibly the emotional problems) to be able to run things like this.
Whether they're an extraordinarily unhelpful group of supporters, or external agents provocateur... who fucking knows.
Yes.
But you absolutely cannot blame this nonsense on the entire movement. There seems to have emerged a very unfortunate cadre of Old Comrades pulling this shit, primarily because they're the ones with the free time (and possibly the emotional problems) to be able to run things like this.
Whether they're an extraordinarily unhelpful group of supporters, or external agents provocateur... who fucking knows.
10
I have been a big advocate of Occupy Seattle, even spending time at Westlake when I can (I work) to help out. Seeing more of the internal workings than most, without actually being a camper, I think the Slog, particularly Dominic, has been pretty unfair, or even superficial, with it's criticism of OS. However, I attended the Town Hall last night and I agree that it was an absolute embarrassment to the OS movement. While I think it is childish to bring focus to activists' personal hygiene, it is hard for me to disagree the rest of this post. I walked away EXTREMELY disappointed from an event that was supposed to engage with supporters of the movement, but alienated them instead.
PS - I think the People's Mic is a brilliant tool to overcome the restriction of sound amplification. However, it is absolutely a hindrance when real microphones are provided. And it was definitely used to silence and talk over people last night.
PS - I think the People's Mic is a brilliant tool to overcome the restriction of sound amplification. However, it is absolutely a hindrance when real microphones are provided. And it was definitely used to silence and talk over people last night.
11
@9 Based on my experience with radicals, I doubt they're external agents provocateur. They actually think this way, that calling for a vote and then holding everyone captive until it goes the way they want is productive. This is why there's a lot of squabbling about nonsense in radical groups, because little factions of these kind of myopic essentialists would rather have powerplays in their tiny little worlds than, you know, suck it up and listen to a leader occasionally in order to get shit done.
12
The problem is when you have a protest without an end. You can say "we're going to protest for a week" and at the end of that week you go home and plan for the next protest. When it's open ended like this the message is going to be taken over by people for whom the primary goal is some type of self satisfaction.
13
Always fun watching the left starting to cannibalize each other. Only took what, a month to go from kumbaya to Lord of the Flies.
14
Why am I absolutely not surprised that the small number of nutjobs with axes to grind are screwing up what could be an incredibly powerful tool for the sort of tangible change we actually need to implement?
15
What do you expect from kids raised in schools that rejected ambition, competition and success and replaced it with 'everybody gets a gold star' culture. Fucking crayon chewing 4 yr olds.
16
America's founding fathers were hip to the fact that to much democracy leads to things like this. That is why our constitution more closely resembles the quasi-totalitarianism of ancient Sparta then the pure democracy of ancient Athens.
17
As I said before, over by Christmas if not sooner. Last night their ONLY fucking ally on the council saw what stupidity this is. Now SCCC is realizing what a fuckibg mistake they made letting anarchists, radicals a substance abuse whackos take over their campus. The liberals are leaving. Send in the dogs.
18
It's time to wrap this shit up. Locally, the movement has failed, and has been overtaken by lunatics.
I'm going to write a letter to the chief of police, they mayor, and the city council urging them to take immediate and decisive action against these people.
I'm going to write a letter to the chief of police, they mayor, and the city council urging them to take immediate and decisive action against these people.
19
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb_qHP7Va…
Sad to see OS building up walls when they could be building bridges. Instead of focusing on tangible, practical and achievable goals, they devote all their time to tangential issues and things that, frankly, few of the 99% want.
Take policing. Of course we need to address police brutality, and mainstream liberals and moderates are coming around to that. But eliminating police? "Uprooting the whole orchard"? Never going to happen, and most of the 99% want it that way. Well-run and regulated banks are possible. But trading in capitalism for something else is dead in the water. We could be working for a better society - something akin to the Scandinavian democracies - with strong safety net, truly progressive taxation, low unemployment and strong workers' rights. But these ideologues let their perfect be the enemy of the good.
Sad to see OS building up walls when they could be building bridges. Instead of focusing on tangible, practical and achievable goals, they devote all their time to tangential issues and things that, frankly, few of the 99% want.
Take policing. Of course we need to address police brutality, and mainstream liberals and moderates are coming around to that. But eliminating police? "Uprooting the whole orchard"? Never going to happen, and most of the 99% want it that way. Well-run and regulated banks are possible. But trading in capitalism for something else is dead in the water. We could be working for a better society - something akin to the Scandinavian democracies - with strong safety net, truly progressive taxation, low unemployment and strong workers' rights. But these ideologues let their perfect be the enemy of the good.
20
This is a slanted argument. Not everyone felt that way. Sorry weak, people that can't stand the pains of real democracy and want to go to bed early and let the politicians do their work for them and are as passive and cowardly as sheep. Take your constitution back or shut up and be mic checked.
21
Sugar Tit, your always trolling!
Honestly, democracy is messy. shit like this happens, and people need to get off the "embarrassment" trip. There's nothing embarrassing going on here, just a discussion of whether or not it was productive. From what people are saying, it wasn't productive. no big deal, I don't think it deserves special attention.. Learn from it and be more productive next time.
I personally know Jane mee and she is actually a very awesome person and a very committed community organizer. I bet if people have beef over this she would (and other impromptu leaders at OS) be more than willing to listen to you and engage you.
Honestly, democracy is messy. shit like this happens, and people need to get off the "embarrassment" trip. There's nothing embarrassing going on here, just a discussion of whether or not it was productive. From what people are saying, it wasn't productive. no big deal, I don't think it deserves special attention.. Learn from it and be more productive next time.
I personally know Jane mee and she is actually a very awesome person and a very committed community organizer. I bet if people have beef over this she would (and other impromptu leaders at OS) be more than willing to listen to you and engage you.
24
"One activist slept on the floor in front of the stage, spread eagle. The place reeked of BO."
Nuff said.
Nuff said.
28
Fucking #FAIL, Occupy Seattle. I am embarrassed by my Republican past, but one thing I can say about the right is that those bitches have their shit together and don't cannibalize their own support.
29
1) I am disappointed in how last night turned out. We all could have handled it better, and I am extremely frustrated that we came off to some as overbearing and disrespectful when that was neither the intention, nor the heart of the matter. However, Dominic, I’d like to point out a few things.
2) The proposal was amended so that the people’s mic would be optional as a reaction to the “several older audience members who couldn’t hear well.”
3) After the initial straw poll, Licata was booed when he said the audience was in favor with proceeding. He, in response to the audience, determined we would have a vote. He also asked us to explain what a General Assembly was. And so we did. What was supposed to be 2 or 3 sentences of explanation turned into an orientation, which I tried to prevent at that time, but continued with since it’s a hard ball to quit rollin’.
4) Licata also explained, from the microphone, that there would be 3 minutes of discussion in the general audience. I did not communicate that to him. Perhaps someone else did, but I am not aware of it.
5) We didn’t “lose the second vote.” There was a straw poll, and then an actual vote. For the actual vote, Licata had us count those “for” and then did not let us count for those “against.”
6) I wish you had stuck around for the after Town Hall discussion. In 15 minutes there was more discussion and more voices heard than in the entire 2 hours upstairs.
2) The proposal was amended so that the people’s mic would be optional as a reaction to the “several older audience members who couldn’t hear well.”
3) After the initial straw poll, Licata was booed when he said the audience was in favor with proceeding. He, in response to the audience, determined we would have a vote. He also asked us to explain what a General Assembly was. And so we did. What was supposed to be 2 or 3 sentences of explanation turned into an orientation, which I tried to prevent at that time, but continued with since it’s a hard ball to quit rollin’.
4) Licata also explained, from the microphone, that there would be 3 minutes of discussion in the general audience. I did not communicate that to him. Perhaps someone else did, but I am not aware of it.
5) We didn’t “lose the second vote.” There was a straw poll, and then an actual vote. For the actual vote, Licata had us count those “for” and then did not let us count for those “against.”
6) I wish you had stuck around for the after Town Hall discussion. In 15 minutes there was more discussion and more voices heard than in the entire 2 hours upstairs.
30
"...they opposed the power dynamic created by speakers on stage talking into microphones."
Short-sighted ideologues? Maybe they should go find a home w/ the far-right Republicans.
Short-sighted ideologues? Maybe they should go find a home w/ the far-right Republicans.
31
Dominic,
This is ridiculous. I read today or yesterday the tents at SCCC will be removed. A person was shot to death near the Occupy Oakland site. There is now genuine worry about sanitation conditions at some Occupy sites.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/article…
I believe OS is finished. The events at Town Hall last night may have sealed its fate.
This is ridiculous. I read today or yesterday the tents at SCCC will be removed. A person was shot to death near the Occupy Oakland site. There is now genuine worry about sanitation conditions at some Occupy sites.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/article…
I believe OS is finished. The events at Town Hall last night may have sealed its fate.
32
Also, Dominic..."they opposed the power dynamic created by speakers on stage talking into microphones" was MUCH less a reason than the desires to
a) have the entire night be an open floor discussion, instead of between panelists
b) take a progressive stack where historically marginalized groups would speak first.
that's what Occupy was trying to do. and it got mired in naughty protestors booing, Licata mangling the process, and mis-communication from the Occupiers on what that actually wanted.
a) have the entire night be an open floor discussion, instead of between panelists
b) take a progressive stack where historically marginalized groups would speak first.
that's what Occupy was trying to do. and it got mired in naughty protestors booing, Licata mangling the process, and mis-communication from the Occupiers on what that actually wanted.
33
I was there, too, Dominic, and I agree with your post. I am a diehard supporter of Occupy. Last night was counterproductive and a waste of time, except as an example of bad tactics in action. We came off as one trick ponies. If we feel confident in ourselves and our cause, why wouldn't we want to have an open discussion that might include a range of opinions? Everybody there was supportive; we should be eager for helpful ideas, not dismissive of them.
34
@32 But it wasn't your meeting. You were being dicks plain and simple. No amount of ideology will change that.
37
#OccupyTownHall was a great success. With better facilitation, the conflict would have been resolved before it started. Although some people might have felt confused for awhile, by the end, more people were using the OS hand signals than came in knowing them. I was standing in the back and only saw no more than 5 people leave. Anyone who comments on Occupy who hasn't actually attended a General Assembly is talking out of their ass.
People who say things can't be done should get out of the way of the people who are doing it.
People who say things can't be done should get out of the way of the people who are doing it.
38
36: Fnarf is a reactionary NIMBY who thinks he's a progressive. He's a bigger tool than the kids shouting. He has no actual ideas, just bitching and moaning.
40
@37 "People who say things can't be done should get out of the way of the people who are doing it."
How very democratic of you.
How very democratic of you.
42
40: People advocating doing nothing but voting for people perpetuating the problems that are wrecking this country aren't exactly model citizens either. What this faction of Occupy Seattle did was very dumb, but that doesn't excuse the snide, sneering inaction of people like Fnarf. He obviously doesn't actually believe in assembly, which forces me to question his concept of civic duty and responsibility.
43
#OccupyTownHall was a great success. Once the vote was done and #OS lost, the occupiers were generally respectful and shared their POV without attacking anyone. (although they did hand signal for people to wrap things up so others could speak. I wish that were normal at many other panel events I've been to)
I was standing in the back and saw no more than 5 people leave, one of them with a fussy toddler, two of them were the students next to me who were there for extra credit.
I observed more and more people using #OWS handsignals as the evening went on. People continued talking for hours afterwards.
A few things to keep in mind:
The Occupiers have to be on guard from being co-opted. To allow the town hall chosen "facilitator" to completely control the meeting (which he was doing poorly anyway) would have been a co-option of their cause that could not be allowed.
Anyone who hasn't been to a GA is talking out of their ass.
And most importantly, anyone who thinks that this revolution has "failed" or is somehow "over" should get out of the way of the people who are making it work.
It has only just begun.
I was standing in the back and saw no more than 5 people leave, one of them with a fussy toddler, two of them were the students next to me who were there for extra credit.
I observed more and more people using #OWS handsignals as the evening went on. People continued talking for hours afterwards.
A few things to keep in mind:
The Occupiers have to be on guard from being co-opted. To allow the town hall chosen "facilitator" to completely control the meeting (which he was doing poorly anyway) would have been a co-option of their cause that could not be allowed.
Anyone who hasn't been to a GA is talking out of their ass.
And most importantly, anyone who thinks that this revolution has "failed" or is somehow "over" should get out of the way of the people who are making it work.
It has only just begun.
44
Was not there for this little event, have attended many GAs, and #occupyseattle was in the wrong. It is okay to play by other peoples rules at their forums. Showing respect is just as important as showing defiance when necessary.
We say we represent the 99%. We need to show them that, not just shout it at them.
We say we represent the 99%. We need to show them that, not just shout it at them.
45
I can't comment on this event, particularly. I wasn't there. I was in Portland, where their encampment was under siege, along with almost 100 other Occupy Seattle demonstrators. There, we held the line against police until the wee hours of the morning, when some of us returned. Some are still there, doing great things for the movement and building coalitions between occupations.
A group of people crashed your party, and I'm sorry that it upset you. But once again the Stranger has shown their coverage of the OWS and Occupy Seattle to be childish and completely off-base from understanding what this populist movement is about. Question, though-- who were the Occupy Seattle activists that were to speak? When I was talking about the town hall, not a single person at Occupy Seattle knew that anyone from... uh... OCCUPY SEATTLE was participating. Weird, eh?
Lastly, what I think is the weirdest thing is that I've never ever heard anyone at Occupy Seattle say "I spoke with Christopher Frizelle today!" Or "Ciena Miller took my picture!" I've been on the ground almost every day for the past month, and I've yet to be introduced to any Stranger reporters. Do you guys just stand around, take pictures, and leave?
Here's a suggestion: Come to our General Assembly, identify yourselves, and discuss how you would like to movement to change. Become part of the movement and... well... BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE.
A group of people crashed your party, and I'm sorry that it upset you. But once again the Stranger has shown their coverage of the OWS and Occupy Seattle to be childish and completely off-base from understanding what this populist movement is about. Question, though-- who were the Occupy Seattle activists that were to speak? When I was talking about the town hall, not a single person at Occupy Seattle knew that anyone from... uh... OCCUPY SEATTLE was participating. Weird, eh?
Lastly, what I think is the weirdest thing is that I've never ever heard anyone at Occupy Seattle say "I spoke with Christopher Frizelle today!" Or "Ciena Miller took my picture!" I've been on the ground almost every day for the past month, and I've yet to be introduced to any Stranger reporters. Do you guys just stand around, take pictures, and leave?
Here's a suggestion: Come to our General Assembly, identify yourselves, and discuss how you would like to movement to change. Become part of the movement and... well... BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE.
46
@37: Anyone who comments on Occupy who hasn't actually attended a General Assembly is talking out of their ass.
Anyone who comments on corporate greed and power who hasn't actually attended a multinational's Board of Directors meeting is talking out of their ass.
See how easy that is?
Anyone who comments on corporate greed and power who hasn't actually attended a multinational's Board of Directors meeting is talking out of their ass.
See how easy that is?
47
Hi Karahp, I think we were confused because just about everybody in there was a supporter, and we came to hear discussion. Instead were given instruction on how to run a GA, were subjected to people's mic even though it was expressed that some were having trouble with the sound and we had a perfectly fine PA system, and it wasted about half of our productive time. Last night was not supposed to be a GA (I've been to many GA's, so I'm not talking out of my ass, and I'm certainly not saying that we can't change the world; that's the point, after all). If the topic of the forum had been 'How to run a GA, and the hand signals that are used', then I would have made a decision not to go, since I know the hand signals, but the topic listed on the Town Hall site was 'Occupy Town Hall: a Conversation'. I thought it was counterproductive to occupy our own supporters.
48
@40 and @26 That is the definition of participatory democracy. If you don't want to participate in creating change, then others will do it for you. Standing by the sidelines bemoaning people who are actively engaged is cowardice.
49
Dominic
Seriously?
You're surprised?
Please tells me you are in no way surprised by how OS is shaping-up. Please.
You know how this ends, right?
Seriously?
You're surprised?
Please tells me you are in no way surprised by how OS is shaping-up. Please.
You know how this ends, right?
50
OS is becoming a bit too self isolating, paranoid and politically incestuous for my taste. Sad, they had my support for awhile there.
51
Ian @45 (et al),
I was there and can attest that Dominic Holden got the story exactly right. Speaking as someone who supports OS and has participated in many OS events, I was absolutely disgusted by the "more Mao than thou" behavior exhibited by certain self-appointed OS "representatives" last night.
For what it's worth, Nick Licata asked for a show of hands at the beginning (prior to the Patty Hearst-a-thon) to show who in the room did NOT consider themselves to be part of Occupy Seattle. NO ONE raised their hand in response. Interpret as you wish.
I was there and can attest that Dominic Holden got the story exactly right. Speaking as someone who supports OS and has participated in many OS events, I was absolutely disgusted by the "more Mao than thou" behavior exhibited by certain self-appointed OS "representatives" last night.
For what it's worth, Nick Licata asked for a show of hands at the beginning (prior to the Patty Hearst-a-thon) to show who in the room did NOT consider themselves to be part of Occupy Seattle. NO ONE raised their hand in response. Interpret as you wish.
52
I sadly agree with much of what Dominic had to say. At the same time, I think it is important to recognize that there were an number of people from the Occupy Seattle movement who disagreed with the rude and ineffective tactics he accurately describes and said so at the time.
The meeting that took place downstairs after the sad affair in the main hall was much more positve and featured lots of positve interactions between different age groups and perspectives within and outside the occupy movement. A good thing that came out of that was a lot of determinatioon to occupy Olympia during the special session coming up on Nov 28th.
I intend to participate in that action and urge other readers to do so as well - let's call for a rescinding of the budget cuts imposed during the past three years of casino capitalism and demand that the legislature fund them by a more equitable tax structure that ends the massive corporate loopholes such as the massive giveaways to Boeing amd the sales tax exemption for pesticide and insecticide companies (to name just a couple).
The movement has its problems but it is is raising essential issues to the future of our country and our world. Let's not give up, get involved and help make it the positive transformative movement for justice we want it to be.
Joe Szwaja Green Party of Seattle
The meeting that took place downstairs after the sad affair in the main hall was much more positve and featured lots of positve interactions between different age groups and perspectives within and outside the occupy movement. A good thing that came out of that was a lot of determinatioon to occupy Olympia during the special session coming up on Nov 28th.
I intend to participate in that action and urge other readers to do so as well - let's call for a rescinding of the budget cuts imposed during the past three years of casino capitalism and demand that the legislature fund them by a more equitable tax structure that ends the massive corporate loopholes such as the massive giveaways to Boeing amd the sales tax exemption for pesticide and insecticide companies (to name just a couple).
The movement has its problems but it is is raising essential issues to the future of our country and our world. Let's not give up, get involved and help make it the positive transformative movement for justice we want it to be.
Joe Szwaja Green Party of Seattle
53
Hillarious!
I am an old school liberal from the get-go, but I gave up on organized "leftism" ages ago because of cheap theatrics like this - and I knew it was just a matter of time before "the people's mic" became just another cliche, like activist mimes or "die-ins", or giant puppets, or any of the dozens of dreary chants that have not changed since the 1960's.
There's a way to grasp the tenuous but enduring liberal populism that is part of the nature of this country, but neither the corporate-controlled Tea Party or the supposed "leaders" of the occupy movement have figured it out yet.
But it's interesting to see how our dear troll has been beside himself about all of this.
I am an old school liberal from the get-go, but I gave up on organized "leftism" ages ago because of cheap theatrics like this - and I knew it was just a matter of time before "the people's mic" became just another cliche, like activist mimes or "die-ins", or giant puppets, or any of the dozens of dreary chants that have not changed since the 1960's.
There's a way to grasp the tenuous but enduring liberal populism that is part of the nature of this country, but neither the corporate-controlled Tea Party or the supposed "leaders" of the occupy movement have figured it out yet.
But it's interesting to see how our dear troll has been beside himself about all of this.
54
I refuse to participate in any group that uses hand signals to communicate. Not the Cub scouts, not Little League and definitely not Occupy Seattle.
55
I was there, disappointed in how it turned out, but hey - it was not a defining moment in the movement. Learn from it, move on.
56
I was there last night. I've been to a GA, attended a working group, and participated in several OS protests. I've also donated money and goods from the list. And I have to say this post was fairly spot-on (snide hygiene remarks aside). Last night, instead of a group of people getting together to form common cause, I saw a bunch of rude cultists with their heads so far up their own asses that their cause became totally irrelevant. And you're right, Dominic, the hypocrisy was absolutely stunning. At the end, I was hoping Licata would ask for another show of hands of who did not consider themselves a member of OS. Had he done so, some of these people might have gotten the message that appears to still elude them today.
Good things can still come of this movement. But I doubt they will be coming from any of those who took over last night.
From now on, my support will be much more targeted to specific actions that offer substantive outcomes for the 99% rather than to this bunch of wankers.
Good things can still come of this movement. But I doubt they will be coming from any of those who took over last night.
From now on, my support will be much more targeted to specific actions that offer substantive outcomes for the 99% rather than to this bunch of wankers.
57
I'm just picturing them all in a tent, yelling "but are we the People's Front of Judea, or are we the Judean People's Front?!".
58
@47 I agree completely. I came to listen to an informed discussion with an opportunity for public participation that was hijacked by a minority who insisted on imposing a GA format minutes after Nick Licata explained that Town Hall explicitly would not follow that format. The interruption and shout-down of Frank Greer during his interruption was specifically rude and disrespectful, furthermore it was revealing. Mr Greer has stellar bona fides in the progressive change movement going back to the Civil Rights movement in the early 1960s and he was not even given the opportunity to finish his introductory statement without an inflammatory and provocative interruption from the audience. Mr Greer also happened to be the one person on the panel who most looks like an elder white male. One wonders at the biases on display. I was tempted to leave. I stayed. I regret that what could have been a much richer and more informative discussion was subverted by an ideological and emotionally projective minority. I am very concerned about the viability and sustainability of this movement.
59
@43 LOL. I wish you could understand how pathetic you sound, I really do. "The Occupier's have to be on guard from being co-opted blah blah blah and blah." I don't think you have to worry about anybody co-opting your message (whatever the hell it actually is anymore) more than you should be worried about alienating the community and turning them off from supporting the cause with self-aggrandizing stunts such as this one. "OCCUPYING" neighborhood town halls? LOL. Gimme a f###ing break, people, yup, you are true revolutionaries. Keep telling yourselves that and watch your "revolution" cease to exist.
@45 Sadly your condescending, naive, and nonsensical rant does little except prove the point so many others have alluded to already: The Occupy Movement is at a crossroads and needs to figure out what the fuck it want to be FAST. You could be a long lasting and/or influential political movement for years to come (not likely at this point) or just an interesting side note in the news of 2011 (i'd bet on this right now). I mean do you people actually think that pontificating the way the majority of you have been to people does anything to turn ANYBODY on to your movement? Please, even if they feel a connection to what is said and what the Occupy movement is supposedly about, christ, what the f##k are you thinking? Do you think people respond well to the implication that they are lemmings? Or a constant stream of condescending pseudo-intellectual bullshit aimed directly their way? Here's a thought....stop being so patronizing and antagonistic towards the community. You're going to need their support to be anything more than a failure of a movement. People generally don't support hypocrites.
@45 Sadly your condescending, naive, and nonsensical rant does little except prove the point so many others have alluded to already: The Occupy Movement is at a crossroads and needs to figure out what the fuck it want to be FAST. You could be a long lasting and/or influential political movement for years to come (not likely at this point) or just an interesting side note in the news of 2011 (i'd bet on this right now). I mean do you people actually think that pontificating the way the majority of you have been to people does anything to turn ANYBODY on to your movement? Please, even if they feel a connection to what is said and what the Occupy movement is supposedly about, christ, what the f##k are you thinking? Do you think people respond well to the implication that they are lemmings? Or a constant stream of condescending pseudo-intellectual bullshit aimed directly their way? Here's a thought....stop being so patronizing and antagonistic towards the community. You're going to need their support to be anything more than a failure of a movement. People generally don't support hypocrites.
60
While it started chaotic this post fails to mention the positives of the event. A good amount of people stayed after for a open meeting. Many of them were older and said it was the first time they felt comfortable to talk at town hall.
61
I think the stranger can stop sending them donuts now. Theres no point in trying to support a group that doesn't care about the neighborhood they're slowly destroying.
62
Dominic,
Let's be honest -- if the OS process had been carried out from the get-go properly, it could have been a quick decision in favor of the panel process. The problem was Nick Licata's frustrated "moderation" of the GA-style process. You entirely misportray how the voting was carried out. It's not that the occupiers were disappointed with the initial result -- it's that Licata claimed we had lost the vote before we'd had a chance to even scan all the hands counted. There were literally only seconds between hands being raised and Licata brushing us off -- when the vote appeared initially split to many in the audience. This pissed people off, and rightly so. Then, after 30 or so minutes of -- yes, often petty and overdone wrangling over process -- the vote came up even more significantly against our favor.
Now, if Licata had simply followed a proper democratic process -- clearly enunciating what was being polled from the beginning and waiting a few minutes for votes to be properly looked at, we would have been finished in 10 minutes. We didn't need to read the entire GA thing -- just the hand signals would have been enough. You act as if all the disrespect was on the side of OS, but there was clear disrespect from others, including the non-OS panelists and Licata himself, as well as from people who would rather walk out than face the ugly, annoying and often petty questions that we deal with every day at General Assemblies.
Two more points:
1. The "wrap-it up" hand signal is not meant to be an offensive disagreement with someone. It states that people feel the speaker has made his/her point and ought to either move on to the next point or cede the stage to someone else. It is often used even if someone is in agreement with the speaker -- which, if you had attended the OS meeting downstairs following this event, you would have seen to be the case. One of the women who had been singled out for using it when a panelist was talking expressed her disappointment, since she'd actually been in agreement with the speaker, but just thought he was talking too long after making his point. People should not be so touchy about the hand-signals, it doesn't mean we hate your guts if we disagree with you and anti-twinkle to show it... it just means we disagree, which is an okay thing.
2. The time-frame of this event needs to be questioned. First of all, scheduling this assembly over one of our own GA's was taken as a sign of disrespect and led to the GA being "brought to" town hall. You do not mention this in your piece. Similarly, I am very doubtful as to how much open discussion could have even happened in an hour and a half between 6 panelists and a crowd of hundreds. Why was the time-scale of this event so limited? We're all used to sitting in GA's for 3+ hours in the rain. I think we can handle more than an hour and a half indoors. It's clear that the basic structure of this event was inadequate to deal with the issues being discussed, especially if questions from the crowd were to be expected.
Final note:
I AM in agreement that this did not go as well as it could have. I'm not in opposition to the idea that we could have a non-GA-style panel discussion. But there needs to be respect on BOTH SIDES. Yeah, this means no people's mic drown-out of people trying to voice opposition -- but it also means don't schedule your town hall meeting over the GA without asking the GA, schedule these events with enough time to actually air out the enormous issues being discussed, and, most importantly, choose a less patronizing moderator.
More...
Let's be honest -- if the OS process had been carried out from the get-go properly, it could have been a quick decision in favor of the panel process. The problem was Nick Licata's frustrated "moderation" of the GA-style process. You entirely misportray how the voting was carried out. It's not that the occupiers were disappointed with the initial result -- it's that Licata claimed we had lost the vote before we'd had a chance to even scan all the hands counted. There were literally only seconds between hands being raised and Licata brushing us off -- when the vote appeared initially split to many in the audience. This pissed people off, and rightly so. Then, after 30 or so minutes of -- yes, often petty and overdone wrangling over process -- the vote came up even more significantly against our favor.
Now, if Licata had simply followed a proper democratic process -- clearly enunciating what was being polled from the beginning and waiting a few minutes for votes to be properly looked at, we would have been finished in 10 minutes. We didn't need to read the entire GA thing -- just the hand signals would have been enough. You act as if all the disrespect was on the side of OS, but there was clear disrespect from others, including the non-OS panelists and Licata himself, as well as from people who would rather walk out than face the ugly, annoying and often petty questions that we deal with every day at General Assemblies.
Two more points:
1. The "wrap-it up" hand signal is not meant to be an offensive disagreement with someone. It states that people feel the speaker has made his/her point and ought to either move on to the next point or cede the stage to someone else. It is often used even if someone is in agreement with the speaker -- which, if you had attended the OS meeting downstairs following this event, you would have seen to be the case. One of the women who had been singled out for using it when a panelist was talking expressed her disappointment, since she'd actually been in agreement with the speaker, but just thought he was talking too long after making his point. People should not be so touchy about the hand-signals, it doesn't mean we hate your guts if we disagree with you and anti-twinkle to show it... it just means we disagree, which is an okay thing.
2. The time-frame of this event needs to be questioned. First of all, scheduling this assembly over one of our own GA's was taken as a sign of disrespect and led to the GA being "brought to" town hall. You do not mention this in your piece. Similarly, I am very doubtful as to how much open discussion could have even happened in an hour and a half between 6 panelists and a crowd of hundreds. Why was the time-scale of this event so limited? We're all used to sitting in GA's for 3+ hours in the rain. I think we can handle more than an hour and a half indoors. It's clear that the basic structure of this event was inadequate to deal with the issues being discussed, especially if questions from the crowd were to be expected.
Final note:
I AM in agreement that this did not go as well as it could have. I'm not in opposition to the idea that we could have a non-GA-style panel discussion. But there needs to be respect on BOTH SIDES. Yeah, this means no people's mic drown-out of people trying to voice opposition -- but it also means don't schedule your town hall meeting over the GA without asking the GA, schedule these events with enough time to actually air out the enormous issues being discussed, and, most importantly, choose a less patronizing moderator.
63
Oh man, the next round of budget savings in Olympia are gonna be a hoot to OS when they pass and all they can do is downwards twinkly fingers.
64
@48 Not really, its just your weird version of it.
What about those of us who actually like the general structure of our political system even if we may not always like those that wind up in charge?
@62 Not everyone finds your GA system as charming or useful as you do.
What about those of us who actually like the general structure of our political system even if we may not always like those that wind up in charge?
@62 Not everyone finds your GA system as charming or useful as you do.
65
You know, Doctor King instructed the civil rights movement in the south to present themselves in public as being beyond ANY reproach in the public's eye. All the marchers were told, and trained, to be well mannered, well presented dignified and strong. It took awhile but that movement made progress.
But for the record I figured this Seattle version of the OWS movement was screwed at the first meeting at Westlake (yes I WAS THERE) when we were told to go into break out groups and put our right hands on the shoulder of the one person who we trusted with our lives. (I thought that we should be able to innately trust anyone there who shared our concerns...why pick just one?) I was dreading that it was going to turn into some hug fest without focus and went home.
Glad I did.
But for the record I figured this Seattle version of the OWS movement was screwed at the first meeting at Westlake (yes I WAS THERE) when we were told to go into break out groups and put our right hands on the shoulder of the one person who we trusted with our lives. (I thought that we should be able to innately trust anyone there who shared our concerns...why pick just one?) I was dreading that it was going to turn into some hug fest without focus and went home.
Glad I did.
66
@62 occupy: Nick Licata was specific in his introduction that Town Hall would ~not~ follow a GA format. He graciously allowed a vote on challenge, and properly followed parliamentary procedure when a clear majority voted against the proposed GA format. OS proceeded to mire the entire proceeding in procedural motions and process points. The majority of us in the audience came to hear and learn from the perspectives of a well qualified panel with an opportunity to question and comment according to accepted custom. What we witnessed was a small group of hostile provocateurs reduce the evening to a tit for tat. Message to OS: learn about parliamentary procedure (what founded this country), pick your battles carefully, and you might have a sliver of a chance.
67
This sucks.
OWS started out with broad appeal, but the shortsighted and completely arbitrary theme they picked to symbolize the movement - occupying various public spaces - meant that as time passed and the weather grew cold, the movement would dwindle to the self-marginalized lefty fringe, homeless people, and junkies.
It would be nice to see this energy and organization transform into other forms of activism, such as disrupting conservative political functions and getting out the lefty vote, but that seems unlikely.
You were right, Gloomy Gus, and I was wrong.
OWS started out with broad appeal, but the shortsighted and completely arbitrary theme they picked to symbolize the movement - occupying various public spaces - meant that as time passed and the weather grew cold, the movement would dwindle to the self-marginalized lefty fringe, homeless people, and junkies.
It would be nice to see this energy and organization transform into other forms of activism, such as disrupting conservative political functions and getting out the lefty vote, but that seems unlikely.
You were right, Gloomy Gus, and I was wrong.
68
@43: would have been a co-option of their cause that could not be allowed.
So this cause belongs strictly to those in the encampments? And not to the rest of us would-be supporters? Ok, got it.
It has only just begun.
No, you and the rest of the deluded, self-important idiots have killed it.
So this cause belongs strictly to those in the encampments? And not to the rest of us would-be supporters? Ok, got it.
It has only just begun.
No, you and the rest of the deluded, self-important idiots have killed it.
69
Getting out the left vote? You mean the 2.74% who voted for Nader in 2000 and gave us Bush? Seems like a long haul from 2.74 to 99%.
71
@67 Yup. It's basically just become people for whom occupying is an end to itself. Like the lefty fringe, homeless people, and junkies.
Well at least we all got a good refresher on why leaderless movements involving anarchists tend to collapse in on themselves.
Well at least we all got a good refresher on why leaderless movements involving anarchists tend to collapse in on themselves.
72
@69 yes, the progressive movement seems once more ripe for co-option by a Trojan Horse like Nader. What's really messed up about last night is this: the Occupy movement needs to focus on local politics and developing local coalitions of support that trickle upward into the State house, Governorship, House of Representatives and Senate. What we saw last night suggests that this will ~not~ happen. OS divisive politics will be putty in the hands of people like Karl Rove and Dick Armey.
73
I was also there, and mostly concur with Dominic's account. Even though many in OS claim they do not want the movement to be co-opted, it should now be apparent to everyone who attended that a considerable portion of OS, or at least the prevailing group-think at SCCC, is now completely mired in identity politics.
I think it needs to be communicated throughout the movement that this kind of mission creep at this stage, especially the kind that will further alienate and keep the movement from spreading is counterproductive.
I think it needs to be communicated throughout the movement that this kind of mission creep at this stage, especially the kind that will further alienate and keep the movement from spreading is counterproductive.
74
I love these posts about how "We showed people how to do a General Assembly! More people left knowing the hand signals than went in!"
NO ONE GIVES A FUCK
NO ONE GIVES A FUCK
75
@37 more people were using the OS hand signals than came in knowing them
So OWS is now about the proper use of hand signals? Oh my fucking god, and couldn't write a lefty parody any more ridiculous than you. Somebody call Fred Armisen, because Portlandia is over here writing itself.
Guess what - I'm holding up a hand signal for you right now. I'm not sure it's an official OWS hand signal, but the meaning should be crystal fucking clear.
So OWS is now about the proper use of hand signals? Oh my fucking god, and couldn't write a lefty parody any more ridiculous than you. Somebody call Fred Armisen, because Portlandia is over here writing itself.
Guess what - I'm holding up a hand signal for you right now. I'm not sure it's an official OWS hand signal, but the meaning should be crystal fucking clear.
77
Trying to hijack an overwhelmingly supportive panel discussion was dumb. It's going to have some short term negative consequences. I'd expect more foresight out of a few of the people involved in this little coup attempt.
It won't kill the movement, though. I'm not sure anything can at this point. People are angry because this thing matters so much. It's a lover's anger.
It won't kill the movement, though. I'm not sure anything can at this point. People are angry because this thing matters so much. It's a lover's anger.
78
So this is what Dictatorship of the Proletariat looks like? Who's in the OWS-Seattle's Politburo?
80
@53 and @1 and @65 FTW
Dear OccupySea: your immigration policy blows. For starters : Go ask the green colossus in New York harbor about how to best grow a democratic movement... there's a reason she's popular.
@12: a protest without end is a problem?
Not any more than a war on terror..... *ahem*
@45 STFU and re-read your first sentence. Now read it again. No no - Read it again. Now: WHY are there ANY words after that first sentence?
Dear OccupySea: your immigration policy blows. For starters : Go ask the green colossus in New York harbor about how to best grow a democratic movement... there's a reason she's popular.
@12: a protest without end is a problem?
Not any more than a war on terror..... *ahem*
@45 STFU and re-read your first sentence. Now read it again. No no - Read it again. Now: WHY are there ANY words after that first sentence?
81
It would be nice if people who want to change the world would read a little history first. During the Russian revolution anarchists and a variety of socialists helped overthrow the Tsar. However, their consensus based decisions making processes provided impractical and they were soon push aside by Lenin and the better organized Bolsheviks.
82
"One activist slept on the floor in front of the stage, spread eagle. The place reeked of BO. "
That's what the court hearings have been like, too. When the OS people show up, the place reeks of BO. Occupy a shower, already.
That's what the court hearings have been like, too. When the OS people show up, the place reeks of BO. Occupy a shower, already.
83
Let me explain why this revolution has only just begun:
Sadly, the people who were uncomfortable with how the meeting went are just getting a taste of the discomfort that is to come. The number of homeless families, wore torn vets and desperately hungry are going to continue to increase exponentially in the coming years. And they will have louder voices and be even more agitated. We can only hope that they are as well organized and functional in their intentions as the current Occupy camps are, even with all their problems. At some point, walking out because you don't want people yelling will no longer be an option because there will be nowhere to escape to.
The revolution is not about the people going to GA, sleeping in the camps or marching through the streets, it is about the 99% suffering from the gross inequity and immoral usury created by the current economic system designed to serve the 1%. This system is going down because it is not salvageable. The process of Occupy is to develop the alternative systems to live by in the meantime. It's a matter of survival and adaptability.
Sadly, the people who were uncomfortable with how the meeting went are just getting a taste of the discomfort that is to come. The number of homeless families, wore torn vets and desperately hungry are going to continue to increase exponentially in the coming years. And they will have louder voices and be even more agitated. We can only hope that they are as well organized and functional in their intentions as the current Occupy camps are, even with all their problems. At some point, walking out because you don't want people yelling will no longer be an option because there will be nowhere to escape to.
The revolution is not about the people going to GA, sleeping in the camps or marching through the streets, it is about the 99% suffering from the gross inequity and immoral usury created by the current economic system designed to serve the 1%. This system is going down because it is not salvageable. The process of Occupy is to develop the alternative systems to live by in the meantime. It's a matter of survival and adaptability.
84
"It won't kill the movement, though. I'm not sure anything can at this point. People are angry because this thing matters so much."
There's 150 at OS. Half are drunks, hobos, addicts, crusties and potheads who don't do squat. So 75 people in a region with 3 million.
Ooooooooo, I'm so fucking impressed. You could probably get more Seattle Republicans out for a bake sale.
There's 150 at OS. Half are drunks, hobos, addicts, crusties and potheads who don't do squat. So 75 people in a region with 3 million.
Ooooooooo, I'm so fucking impressed. You could probably get more Seattle Republicans out for a bake sale.
86
@75 LOL! Yeah, I get it and now you can stick that hand signal where it belongs. Handsignals = communication, communication = understanding, understanding leads to a humane society, Humane society is the revolution.
87
" it is about the 99% suffering from the gross inequity and immoral usury created"
I'm in the 99%. Gross family income of $150,000 a year, $200k in investments, IRAs etc (do you have a Roth yet?), 50% equity in the northside home bought in '03 (just did a fab refi at 3.95% for 30 yr fixed. I know, unfuckibg believable you say!). No debts other than mortgage. Kids in great Seattle public schools. Farmers market near by, great coffee and wood fired pizza joint a minute's walk from our single family home.
So question to you Sherlock: why the fuck would I throw my lot in with hobos, addicts and self-taught anarchists, radicals and other angry mental health cases shitting into buckets and freezing in tents at a 3rd rate community college?
I'm in the 99%. Gross family income of $150,000 a year, $200k in investments, IRAs etc (do you have a Roth yet?), 50% equity in the northside home bought in '03 (just did a fab refi at 3.95% for 30 yr fixed. I know, unfuckibg believable you say!). No debts other than mortgage. Kids in great Seattle public schools. Farmers market near by, great coffee and wood fired pizza joint a minute's walk from our single family home.
So question to you Sherlock: why the fuck would I throw my lot in with hobos, addicts and self-taught anarchists, radicals and other angry mental health cases shitting into buckets and freezing in tents at a 3rd rate community college?
88
@83 Your movement exists because the larger society tolerates it. Cause sufficient inconvenience to the rest of us, you know the people who go to work and take showers and stuff like that, and we'll shut you down. You need us, we don't need you.
89
@86 there was little 'humane' about last nights' disruptions. The OS activists were rude, disrespectful and hypocritical to people ~sympathetic~ to the cause. Your people impeded understanding.
90
" humane"
Probably the last word OS opponents will hear before these people start slitting throats in their killing fields.
Mayor McGinn, send in the hounds!
Probably the last word OS opponents will hear before these people start slitting throats in their killing fields.
Mayor McGinn, send in the hounds!
91
@64 The current version of governance in America is operating with only a small fraction of voters actually participating and billions being spent on buying the voters that come out. If you go to other places where a higher percentage of the population participates, you will see highly motivated people involved and participating in ways that current Occupy protesters haven't even attempted. IMHO American politics is so dysfunctional because it is so dull that people feel like they've participated when they vote once a year or every 4 years.
92
Saying that this was an attempt to spread the Occupy process to a larger audience is absurd. I was there. There was a show of hands at the beginning of the panel as to how many in the audience had already seen a GA. Almost every hand went up. If the purpose was actually to teach process, the entire stunt should have been called off right then.
It strikes me as a temper tantrum by members who felt hurt by not being included on the panel.
It strikes me as a temper tantrum by members who felt hurt by not being included on the panel.
93
As Slog is the major source of reporting on Occupy Seattle, however unjust it may be to expect from a blogger, Dominic owes his readers some modicum of analysis beyond his own (mostly justifiable) opinion. While I remain concerned, like many fellow commenters, about the long-term viability of the movement, I diverge from their criticism of the process itself. It is in that spirit that I offer my humble, and likely unsatisfactory, alternative perspective:
The events of last night, and this corresponding post, do not point to deficiencies in the people who continue to be active in the Occupy Seattle movement or in their chosen mode of deliberation. Instead, it illuminates the supremely difficult task of those in accepted positions of authority to relax that authority when faced with potential adversity.
Stronger, more empathetic moderating on the part of Licata might have produced, in short order, the same eventual outcome: orderly microphone use for the older attendees and a progressive queue for the OS organizers. That these proposals are not mutually exclusive would have become readily apparent had Licata applied the basic mediating technique of overtly acknowledging and verbalizing those needs. Similarly, Dominic might have done the same with this post, while still making his journalistic point regarding alienation by process.
What transpired instead, at both Town Hall and within this blog post, are really the result of personal shock and a deep sense of betrayal. Here is a populist, former-Green Party, pro-OWS council member and a progressive blog(ger) giving the oppressed a voice and what happens? They go and properly muck it up by turning on their benefactors. At such a time, empathy is exceedingly difficult. So they did what anyone might reasonably do: Retaliated and reaffirmed the appropriateness of their own positions ("[OS activists are] woefully misguided about what democracy looked like," etc.).
In my opinion, the disorder that occurred during the meeting proper demonstrates the absolute necessity (for a time, at least) for direct democracy that lies at the root of this movement. Even those with unassailable credentials, be they legislators, political strategists, or culture-makers, may be asked to relinquish long-held positions of authority. What should be remarkable about last night -- despite conscious efforts by several rude attendees, unconsciously patronizing comments by Greer and Hanauer, and the failure of the moderator, in the shock of the moment, to acknowledge the situation -- civility won out by deliberate, redundant, and, yes, inefficient process. Compromises were made, panelists became conciliatory, conservative attendees were won over, agitators were silenced, and in the post-panel discussion, inclusivity and alienation were discussed as lessons learned.
While it is may have been disappointing for some not to have heard more from the panelists, lectures and seminars can accomplish those same ends. For those wishing to know more about the OS movement, for good or ill, Town Hall undoubted provided that. It has, at least, won over one skeptic.
More...
The events of last night, and this corresponding post, do not point to deficiencies in the people who continue to be active in the Occupy Seattle movement or in their chosen mode of deliberation. Instead, it illuminates the supremely difficult task of those in accepted positions of authority to relax that authority when faced with potential adversity.
Stronger, more empathetic moderating on the part of Licata might have produced, in short order, the same eventual outcome: orderly microphone use for the older attendees and a progressive queue for the OS organizers. That these proposals are not mutually exclusive would have become readily apparent had Licata applied the basic mediating technique of overtly acknowledging and verbalizing those needs. Similarly, Dominic might have done the same with this post, while still making his journalistic point regarding alienation by process.
What transpired instead, at both Town Hall and within this blog post, are really the result of personal shock and a deep sense of betrayal. Here is a populist, former-Green Party, pro-OWS council member and a progressive blog(ger) giving the oppressed a voice and what happens? They go and properly muck it up by turning on their benefactors. At such a time, empathy is exceedingly difficult. So they did what anyone might reasonably do: Retaliated and reaffirmed the appropriateness of their own positions ("[OS activists are] woefully misguided about what democracy looked like," etc.).
In my opinion, the disorder that occurred during the meeting proper demonstrates the absolute necessity (for a time, at least) for direct democracy that lies at the root of this movement. Even those with unassailable credentials, be they legislators, political strategists, or culture-makers, may be asked to relinquish long-held positions of authority. What should be remarkable about last night -- despite conscious efforts by several rude attendees, unconsciously patronizing comments by Greer and Hanauer, and the failure of the moderator, in the shock of the moment, to acknowledge the situation -- civility won out by deliberate, redundant, and, yes, inefficient process. Compromises were made, panelists became conciliatory, conservative attendees were won over, agitators were silenced, and in the post-panel discussion, inclusivity and alienation were discussed as lessons learned.
While it is may have been disappointing for some not to have heard more from the panelists, lectures and seminars can accomplish those same ends. For those wishing to know more about the OS movement, for good or ill, Town Hall undoubted provided that. It has, at least, won over one skeptic.
94
@88 Occupy Seattle is one version of the movement. The revolution is much much much greater. Those of you who have the luxury of having a job and a shower (at least for now) have your own version of the revolution when you lose your job, your home, a family member in the armed services, etc. And when your life is turned upside-down, you wonder how you will survive and you reach out to others to learn from them. Maybe you will learn from Occupy, maybe you will learn from others. But you do realize that, eventually, the collapsing economy will tear your life apart, right? We are all in this together.
95
this sort of activisim that is focused on the process is truly stupid. What is the point of yammering around at each other if you don't actually accomplish anything?
It really seems that for some of these folks, the point isn't to create an atmosphere of accountability, but rather to be able to say one was an activist. Most of these OWS offshoots are simply a stage for some navel gazing blowhards.
It really seems that for some of these folks, the point isn't to create an atmosphere of accountability, but rather to be able to say one was an activist. Most of these OWS offshoots are simply a stage for some navel gazing blowhards.
96
You've got to love how the stranger equates democracy with a bunch of democrats holding a panel "discussion" on what the rest of us should do. You've got to love even more that they have the gall to call themselves "experts" on movement building when not one of them, not ONE of them, had a hand in planning any of the occupations.
98
mic check. mic check. THAT IS WHAT A TANTRUM LOOKS LIKE.
occupy seattle is worse than professional canvassers. this story was inevitable.
occupy seattle is worse than professional canvassers. this story was inevitable.
99
Sounds to me that the banksters have most of the Stranger readers on this thread held by their you know what! Whatever the issue was that night to condemn the whole movement based on it is cowardly and shows your true colors and agenda. Stop smoking that dope they keep feeding you! Tomorrow will be your turn to join the ranks of the unemployed and the poor. Learn about the stories of those in the streets before you so easily dismiss them. They are you! Act before the cancer of capitalism occupies and dooms you irrevocably. Stop feeding the beast!
"It is the economy, stupid"!
"It is the economy, stupid"!
100
@62
I'm a 37-yr-old artist who left her 175 sq. ft. live/work art studio dark during Art Attack in Georgetown, spent $6 on buses earned as a under-employed part-time janitor with no sick pay or healthcare @ $9 an hour, while I earn a BA & LOTSA student loans so I can have my MA in Psych in 2016, which may lead to better job security.
My $6 bought an surprise demonstration against Town Hall's facilitator-choosing-process & a debate about hand signals. I ASSUMED I was buying a guaranteed multi-faceted 6 person panel discussion on the future of an important world-wide movement.
Yes, you have right to free speech, but if you would've let things roll as planned, I would've left @ 9pm with what I spent $6for. Plus, today we would've had a participatory democracy-style discussion on what slog journalists & readers liked or hated about a 2 hour long panel discussion.
I feel my time & money was co-opted. I wish I bought a tube of prussian blue paint that I desperately need or at least a bucket of Jim Beam, which I also desperately need & rarely get.
But, hey, I'm used to the ball bouncing this way because I AM THE DISENFRANCHIZED 90-something%. See ya at the GA or at the SCCC art tent.
I'm a 37-yr-old artist who left her 175 sq. ft. live/work art studio dark during Art Attack in Georgetown, spent $6 on buses earned as a under-employed part-time janitor with no sick pay or healthcare @ $9 an hour, while I earn a BA & LOTSA student loans so I can have my MA in Psych in 2016, which may lead to better job security.
My $6 bought an surprise demonstration against Town Hall's facilitator-choosing-process & a debate about hand signals. I ASSUMED I was buying a guaranteed multi-faceted 6 person panel discussion on the future of an important world-wide movement.
Yes, you have right to free speech, but if you would've let things roll as planned, I would've left @ 9pm with what I spent $6for. Plus, today we would've had a participatory democracy-style discussion on what slog journalists & readers liked or hated about a 2 hour long panel discussion.
I feel my time & money was co-opted. I wish I bought a tube of prussian blue paint that I desperately need or at least a bucket of Jim Beam, which I also desperately need & rarely get.
But, hey, I'm used to the ball bouncing this way because I AM THE DISENFRANCHIZED 90-something%. See ya at the GA or at the SCCC art tent.
102
http://pdxcityclub.org/friday_forum_arch…
Link to a "City Club of Portland" stream/downloadable mp3 analysis of Occupy movements. Informative, realistic & (mostly) optimistic take on events for those with 45 minutes to an hour to kill.
Link to a "City Club of Portland" stream/downloadable mp3 analysis of Occupy movements. Informative, realistic & (mostly) optimistic take on events for those with 45 minutes to an hour to kill.
105
I stopped supporting "Them" (I support the cause) when they spray painted on the lovely granite fountain at Westlake. I could give a damn if they destroy their own property, but destroying public property is not their right as the 99% or the 55% or the 36% or what ever. I do not support "THEM". Get out of Seattle now.
107
"Link to a "City Club of Portland" stream/downloadable mp3 analysis of Occupy movements. Informative, realistic & (mostly) optimistic take on events for those with 45 minutes to an hour to kill."
Shit. Yet another thing that Portland can accomplish that Seattle can't.
Shit. Yet another thing that Portland can accomplish that Seattle can't.
108
"Yet another thing that Portland can accomplish that Seattle can't."
Yes, like close the festering, drug filled needle camp they call Occupy Portland this morning when all the occupiers went home for breakfast. THat's right, Occupy Portland was defeated by a Grand Slam. Good job PPD!
Yes, like close the festering, drug filled needle camp they call Occupy Portland this morning when all the occupiers went home for breakfast. THat's right, Occupy Portland was defeated by a Grand Slam. Good job PPD!
110
Oh dear gawd. The Portlandia comment earlier was dead on.
What I like about Occupy Seattle is direct action. A chance to get out into the public spaces of Seattle to express with others our shared frustrations in a hope there that we might change the way things are ... or at least change minds.
When I'm protesting, it's not appropriate to stand in front of me and give me the wrap-it-up gesture. Or when I'm marching, to stop me to bitch about how the single issue message on the sign I'm carrying is co-opting the movement. Right?
Same deal. This direct action against a well publicized event put together by a well meaning community weekly was just lame.
This was a public forum hosted by The Stranger. It wasn't a general assembly. There were panelists speaking into microphones that people came to hear through a microphone. Not the peoples' mic.
A large part of this is about communication. How we speak to each other. Who get's heard. Who doesn't. It might have helped if the aggrieved parties began communicating with each other BEFORE the forum. SCCC and The Stranger's office are a block and a half from each other. A block and a half?!
What the fuck happened here that both sides are claiming they're a victim?
What I like about Occupy Seattle is direct action. A chance to get out into the public spaces of Seattle to express with others our shared frustrations in a hope there that we might change the way things are ... or at least change minds.
When I'm protesting, it's not appropriate to stand in front of me and give me the wrap-it-up gesture. Or when I'm marching, to stop me to bitch about how the single issue message on the sign I'm carrying is co-opting the movement. Right?
Same deal. This direct action against a well publicized event put together by a well meaning community weekly was just lame.
This was a public forum hosted by The Stranger. It wasn't a general assembly. There were panelists speaking into microphones that people came to hear through a microphone. Not the peoples' mic.
A large part of this is about communication. How we speak to each other. Who get's heard. Who doesn't. It might have helped if the aggrieved parties began communicating with each other BEFORE the forum. SCCC and The Stranger's office are a block and a half from each other. A block and a half?!
What the fuck happened here that both sides are claiming they're a victim?
112
The 1% must be laughing their asses off... tonight's message: it is a tale. Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing
113
It occurs to me one reason why I love the movie The Milagro Beanfield War so much.. it's a perfect analogy to what's happening in this whole country.
114
86# "Humane society is the revolution." I thought the Humane Society was a place to take stray dogs. Ironic. Question two, this one's a tough one: If the 99% are with you, if this is all for the people, and the people value a humane society, then why do you not think society is already humane? Do you treat people poorly on a daily basis because Bill Gates put a gun to your head and said 'go be evil!'? I don't. No one I know does. We treat each other humanely, and we live in a damn fine society. Some problems, to be sure, but not evil incarnate that must be blasted to the four winds.
#74 - Priceless.
#87 Epic.
They never admit that he whole premise is flawed, building on a bad foundation makes for the wrong strategic decisions. They would accomplish much more real change if they would admit they are not representing the 99%, and focus on what their core really wants. 99% of Americans are NOT suffering gross inequity, not even 50%. Most people are doing about as well on the happiness/fulfillment/well-fed scale as any generation before. There are some years of struggle, there are some good years. This is not the apocalypse, though the madmen run through the street shouting thus.
#37 "OS hand signals" Are you kidding me? What is this, a Scientology cult where you have to use a secret handshake or you are not worthy of a voice? We have serious shit problems, wars, economic, corruption, the Kardashians...and you want to spread the gospel of hand signals? Go start a commune in the forest, cult-boy.
#67 Ooo...you stepped in one of the unspoken secrets. You started with "OWS started out with broad appeal", then shifted to a adopted goal of " ... getting out the lefty vote". When I was talking with organizers and first protesters in NYC, they repeatedly said it was a nonpolitical movement, against corruption on wall street and DC. But as the movement has grown more intolerant, it has grown more 'lefty'. It is no longer something 99% of Americans can or will support. The best hope is for it to transform into an organized version of a leftish Tea Party. The passion of MoveOn, without the political venom and Soros puppet masters. However, that's the best scenario for real change. If it it becomes a collection of the communists, anarchists, and those who want to abolish capitalism, it will die an unseemly death, maybe taking a few innocents down with it.
My take: there are two paths to real change in our great country. 1) work within the system for incremental change, and once in awhile significant changes or policies (i.e. Civil Rights, Sufferage, etc). or 2) Violent overthrow of our system, destruction, force, brother v brother, father vs father, blood in the streets and the death of the most shining candle of freedom the world has yet seen. Those are your choices. The larger the movement has grown, the more I've seen it spew disdain for working through the system as the Tea Party is and has been successful at. That is what happens when you launch a protest without a vision for a desired goal. The founders were too eager to see bodies in the street, to build a trajectory. Now they have a squirming, chaotic mess. Good luck organizing with any consistent message, at this point you will need it.
More...
#74 - Priceless.
#87 Epic.
They never admit that he whole premise is flawed, building on a bad foundation makes for the wrong strategic decisions. They would accomplish much more real change if they would admit they are not representing the 99%, and focus on what their core really wants. 99% of Americans are NOT suffering gross inequity, not even 50%. Most people are doing about as well on the happiness/fulfillment/well-fed scale as any generation before. There are some years of struggle, there are some good years. This is not the apocalypse, though the madmen run through the street shouting thus.
#37 "OS hand signals" Are you kidding me? What is this, a Scientology cult where you have to use a secret handshake or you are not worthy of a voice? We have serious shit problems, wars, economic, corruption, the Kardashians...and you want to spread the gospel of hand signals? Go start a commune in the forest, cult-boy.
#67 Ooo...you stepped in one of the unspoken secrets. You started with "OWS started out with broad appeal", then shifted to a adopted goal of " ... getting out the lefty vote". When I was talking with organizers and first protesters in NYC, they repeatedly said it was a nonpolitical movement, against corruption on wall street and DC. But as the movement has grown more intolerant, it has grown more 'lefty'. It is no longer something 99% of Americans can or will support. The best hope is for it to transform into an organized version of a leftish Tea Party. The passion of MoveOn, without the political venom and Soros puppet masters. However, that's the best scenario for real change. If it it becomes a collection of the communists, anarchists, and those who want to abolish capitalism, it will die an unseemly death, maybe taking a few innocents down with it.
My take: there are two paths to real change in our great country. 1) work within the system for incremental change, and once in awhile significant changes or policies (i.e. Civil Rights, Sufferage, etc). or 2) Violent overthrow of our system, destruction, force, brother v brother, father vs father, blood in the streets and the death of the most shining candle of freedom the world has yet seen. Those are your choices. The larger the movement has grown, the more I've seen it spew disdain for working through the system as the Tea Party is and has been successful at. That is what happens when you launch a protest without a vision for a desired goal. The founders were too eager to see bodies in the street, to build a trajectory. Now they have a squirming, chaotic mess. Good luck organizing with any consistent message, at this point you will need it.
115
Sounds like the meeting led to a dead end. That's too bad, but the far bigger downer to me is how many people on this thread seem ready to throw away the whole idea of OWS because they disagree with some tactics used by fringe participants. I'm an outsider as far as the organization of OWS is concerned, but you better believe I'm sympathetic to the idea of a new progressive movement in politics, wherever it comes from and however it spreads.
If you think there isn't a great deal of inequality and injustice being perpetrated by the system as it stands, then you're either ignorant or you're a callous prick. Whatever you think of their periodic grandstanding, OWS now has 2 full months behind them of raising some crucial issues and making sure that the news has something to talk about about aside from the Republican car wreck and the latest Kardashian scandal. Smart people like Fnarf and Seandr know how out of whack this economic system is, and they know how much good popular progressive movements have done in the past. Maybe you're too old and jaded to be solidly behind this new wave, but you should at least know better than to dismiss the entire endeavor. Seen-it-all pessimism is no way to improve things. You guys bum me out.
If you think there isn't a great deal of inequality and injustice being perpetrated by the system as it stands, then you're either ignorant or you're a callous prick. Whatever you think of their periodic grandstanding, OWS now has 2 full months behind them of raising some crucial issues and making sure that the news has something to talk about about aside from the Republican car wreck and the latest Kardashian scandal. Smart people like Fnarf and Seandr know how out of whack this economic system is, and they know how much good popular progressive movements have done in the past. Maybe you're too old and jaded to be solidly behind this new wave, but you should at least know better than to dismiss the entire endeavor. Seen-it-all pessimism is no way to improve things. You guys bum me out.
116
If OS thinks Nick Licata is part of the enemy, I don't know who they think their friends are. The guy's been a one-man protest movement in Seattle for more years than some OS protesters have been alive.
Matt's right: "Revolution should NOT be the goal. Reform should be."
Matt's right: "Revolution should NOT be the goal. Reform should be."
117
86# "Humane society is the revolution." I thought the Humane Society was a place to take stray dogs. Ironic. Question two, this one's a tough one: If the 99% are with you, if this is all for the people, and the people value a humane society, then why do you not think society is already humane? Do you treat people poorly on a daily basis because Bill Gates put a gun to your head and said 'go be evil!'? I don't. No one I know does. We treat each other humanely, and we live in a damn fine society. Some problems, to be sure, but not evil incarnate that must be blasted to the four winds.
#74 - Priceless.
#87 Epic.
They never admit that he whole premise is flawed, building on a bad foundation makes for the wrong strategic decisions. They would accomplish much more real change if they would admit they are not representing the 99%, and focus on what their core really wants. 99% of Americans are NOT suffering gross inequity, not even 50%. Most people are doing about as well on the happiness/fulfillment/well-fed scale as any generation before. There are some years of struggle, there are some good years. This is not the apocalypse, though the madmen run through the street shouting thus.
#37 "OS hand signals" Are you kidding me? What is this, a Scientology cult where you have to use a secret handshake or you are not worthy of a voice? We have serious shit problems, wars, economic, corruption, the Kardashians...and you want to spread the gospel of hand signals? Go start a commune in the forest, cult-boy.
#67 Ooo...nice flash of honesty. You started with "OWS started out with broad appeal", then modified it to a goal of " ... getting out the lefty vote". When I was plugged into organizers and first protesters in NYC back in Sept, they repeatedly said it was a nonpolitical movement, against corruption on wall street and DC. Something a true majority could agree on. But as the movement has grown more intolerant, it has grown more 'lefty'. (or is that vice versa?) It is no longer something 99% of Americans can or will support. The best hope is for it to transform into an organized version of a leftish Tea Party. The determination of MoveOn, without the political venom and Soros puppet masters involved. However, that's the best scenario for change. If it it becomes a collection of the communists, anarchists, and those who want to abolish capitalism, it will die an unseemly death, maybe taking a few innocents down with it.
My take: there are two paths to real change in our great country. 1) work within the system for incremental change, and once in awhile significant changes (i.e. Civil Rights, Sufferage, etc). or 2) Violent overthrow of our system, destruction, force, brother v brother, father vs father, blood in the streets and the death of the most shining candle of freedom the world has yet seen. Those are your choices. The larger the movement has grown, the more I've seen it spew disdain for working through the system as the Tea Party is and has been successful at. That is what happens when you launch a protest without a vision for a desired goal. The founders were too eager to see bodies in the street, to build a trajectory. Now they have a squirming, chaotic mess. Good luck organizing with any consistent message, at this point you will need it.
There is a third option some of the hardcore protesters should consider. Stop trying to change the system, and go live as you would like to live. Either in a commune or a country more favorable to your ideals. That's not so radical. The Amish aren't complaining about the economy, they aren't unhappy. It's not necessary to have top of the world medical, college tuition, and iPhones to be happy. If you really want a completely different society, you could go start one, and see if you can grow past 150 that can stand each other's guts for more than a year. If you can do that, maybe you will have earned the right to tell others how to run a small village. But no more, and only after you've proven your ideas are workable.
More...
86# "Humane society is the revolution." I thought the Humane Society was a place to take stray dogs. Ironic. Question two, this one's a tough one: If the 99% are with you, if this is all for the people, and the people value a humane society, then why do you not think society is already humane? Do you treat people poorly on a daily basis because Bill Gates put a gun to your head and said 'go be evil!'? I don't. No one I know does. We treat each other humanely, and we live in a damn fine society. Some problems, to be sure, but not evil incarnate that must be blasted to the four winds.
#74 - Priceless.
#87 Epic.
They never admit that he whole premise is flawed, building on a bad foundation makes for the wrong strategic decisions. They would accomplish much more real change if they would admit they are not representing the 99%, and focus on what their core really wants. 99% of Americans are NOT suffering gross inequity, not even 50%. Most people are doing about as well on the happiness/fulfillment/well-fed scale as any generation before. There are some years of struggle, there are some good years. This is not the apocalypse, though the madmen run through the street shouting thus.
#37 "OS hand signals" Are you kidding me? What is this, a Scientology cult where you have to use a secret handshake or you are not worthy of a voice? We have serious shit problems, wars, economic, corruption, the Kardashians...and you want to spread the gospel of hand signals? Go start a commune in the forest, cult-boy.
#67 Ooo...nice flash of honesty. You started with "OWS started out with broad appeal", then modified it to a goal of " ... getting out the lefty vote". When I was plugged into organizers and first protesters in NYC back in Sept, they repeatedly said it was a nonpolitical movement, against corruption on wall street and DC. Something a true majority could agree on. But as the movement has grown more intolerant, it has grown more 'lefty'. (or is that vice versa?) It is no longer something 99% of Americans can or will support. The best hope is for it to transform into an organized version of a leftish Tea Party. The determination of MoveOn, without the political venom and Soros puppet masters involved. However, that's the best scenario for change. If it it becomes a collection of the communists, anarchists, and those who want to abolish capitalism, it will die an unseemly death, maybe taking a few innocents down with it.
My take: there are two paths to real change in our great country. 1) work within the system for incremental change, and once in awhile significant changes (i.e. Civil Rights, Sufferage, etc). or 2) Violent overthrow of our system, destruction, force, brother v brother, father vs father, blood in the streets and the death of the most shining candle of freedom the world has yet seen. Those are your choices. The larger the movement has grown, the more I've seen it spew disdain for working through the system as the Tea Party is and has been successful at. That is what happens when you launch a protest without a vision for a desired goal. The founders were too eager to see bodies in the street, to build a trajectory. Now they have a squirming, chaotic mess. Good luck organizing with any consistent message, at this point you will need it.
There is a third option some of the hardcore protesters should consider. Stop trying to change the system, and go live as you would like to live. Either in a commune or a country more favorable to your ideals. That's not so radical. The Amish aren't complaining about the economy, they aren't unhappy. It's not necessary to have top of the world medical, college tuition, and iPhones to be happy. If you really want a completely different society, you could go start one, and see if you can grow past 150 that can stand each other's guts for more than a year. If you can do that, maybe you will have earned the right to tell others how to run a small village. But no more, and only after you've proven your ideas are workable.
118
@96 blackflags: Half the panel were from OS. Maybe they weren't 'planning' the Seattle occupation, but your comment seeds dissent. This is the kind of thinking seeded by agents provocateurs.
120
@115: you're lecturing us about inequality and injustice, which we apparently don't understand because we're too old? Many of us have lived it, and a hell of a lot longer than you probably have. For that very reason, we don't want this movement--OUR movement also, you don't own it--messed up by sophomoric theatrics.
123
It has been very interesting, reading all these comments. If it wasn't so late I'd read through them all again, but alas, it's late. And I was up late last night at the Town Hall meeting; I stayed for most of the post meeting discussion. Had I been able to gather up my thoughts I would have commented during that discussion about what I had just witnessed, but I was in shock. A pro-OWS panel and an audience completely in favor of this movement, our movement, my movement. The movement I have been waiting for all my life for.
There have been a number of posts in favor of the behavior of OS last night, but I can't recall any of them explaining what the point of all that was. One person said things are going to get a lot worse, so get used to it. I don't get it.Things weren't worse last night. There were panel members that I know spend a lot of time and do a lot of work at OS. Those people were totally disrespected. All of the panelist were disrespected. Why? Really, I sincerely want to know. Please. The peoples mic is great, I love it. But when there is a microphone, inside, like, use it. Is there a explanation for this behavior that makes some sense, or was this some mob mentality deal? You don't want things to be scheduled opposite the GA. The GA is every night, at the dinner hour. To this way of thinking, no one should schedule any thing any night of the week at the dinner hour. Seriously? OS schedules events opposite the GA. So I guess only OS can schedule events opposite the GA, no one else. That makes absolutely no sense. At. All. None of it does. If any of you have a reasoned explanation for your behavior lets hear it. You certainly haven't been shy about speaking up thus far.
There have been a number of posts in favor of the behavior of OS last night, but I can't recall any of them explaining what the point of all that was. One person said things are going to get a lot worse, so get used to it. I don't get it.Things weren't worse last night. There were panel members that I know spend a lot of time and do a lot of work at OS. Those people were totally disrespected. All of the panelist were disrespected. Why? Really, I sincerely want to know. Please. The peoples mic is great, I love it. But when there is a microphone, inside, like, use it. Is there a explanation for this behavior that makes some sense, or was this some mob mentality deal? You don't want things to be scheduled opposite the GA. The GA is every night, at the dinner hour. To this way of thinking, no one should schedule any thing any night of the week at the dinner hour. Seriously? OS schedules events opposite the GA. So I guess only OS can schedule events opposite the GA, no one else. That makes absolutely no sense. At. All. None of it does. If any of you have a reasoned explanation for your behavior lets hear it. You certainly haven't been shy about speaking up thus far.
124
WHAT THE SHIT, OWS. WHEN PEOPLE WANT TO LISTEN TO YOU, DON'T YELL IN THEIR FACES. FUCK. SAKE.
@1: Babby's first troll.
@6: Sorry, I was out of town this weekend on a field trip. This?
@1: Babby's first troll.
@6: Sorry, I was out of town this weekend on a field trip. This?
125
@115: I'm not dismissing the underlying cause at all. However, I think the nuts who have co-opted OS are making more of a mockery of that cause than any of the dickheads on Fox News.
It also seems very clear to me that "occupy" has run its course as an effective means of expressing progressive sentiment. Why the fuck are progressive politics suddenly joined at the hip with illegal camping? Who thought that was a good idea?
Then I compare OWS with the conservative movement that has been building since Reagan was elected back when I was a kid. Since then, conservatives have used political activism to win HUGE gains in controlling how our country is run, including our political systems, our schools, science, medicine, immigration, the media, courts, etc. They did that with laser-like focus on the voting booth - i.e., grooming and motivating conservative voters, and disenfranchising liberal voters.
Meanwhile, what's our team up to? They're busy holding circle jerks with hand signals.
Yeah, I'm bummed, too, Gurldoggie.
It also seems very clear to me that "occupy" has run its course as an effective means of expressing progressive sentiment. Why the fuck are progressive politics suddenly joined at the hip with illegal camping? Who thought that was a good idea?
Then I compare OWS with the conservative movement that has been building since Reagan was elected back when I was a kid. Since then, conservatives have used political activism to win HUGE gains in controlling how our country is run, including our political systems, our schools, science, medicine, immigration, the media, courts, etc. They did that with laser-like focus on the voting booth - i.e., grooming and motivating conservative voters, and disenfranchising liberal voters.
Meanwhile, what's our team up to? They're busy holding circle jerks with hand signals.
Yeah, I'm bummed, too, Gurldoggie.
126
@115 "OWS now has 2 full months behind them of raising some crucial issues and making sure that the news has something to talk about about aside from the Republican car wreck and the latest Kardashian scandal."
ows didn't raise these issues. some people have been aware of them and have been voting accordingly for some time now. it may have led to the dems finally letting their candidate in the last presidential election run as a dem instead of a faux republican. if they really care about these issues they will organize around them and candidates instead of being a minstrel show. if they really, really care they will make voter registration their #1 goal. since, as most polls say, people believe in the "movement," it takes is a candidate and getting them to the ballot box (in city councils, legislatures, congress, etc.). good luck. i'm pulling for you.
ows didn't raise these issues. some people have been aware of them and have been voting accordingly for some time now. it may have led to the dems finally letting their candidate in the last presidential election run as a dem instead of a faux republican. if they really care about these issues they will organize around them and candidates instead of being a minstrel show. if they really, really care they will make voter registration their #1 goal. since, as most polls say, people believe in the "movement," it takes is a candidate and getting them to the ballot box (in city councils, legislatures, congress, etc.). good luck. i'm pulling for you.
127
@126 Yeh, don't be a "minstrel show". Get behind Patty Murray and the rest of the Democrats fighting to find a partner on the other side to compromise away your values. Get back in line people. Don't be a dirty hippy like these interrupters!
Seriously, the Democratic party had been all about deficit austerity ideology for months and months before OWS came along and deflected the national narrative. And they would clearly like to get back to that. I don't care if there are a lot of "dirty hippies" (ie people with ideals they are not ashamed of) at OWS - they got the national discussion talking again about unemployment , people losing their homes, and maybe even why Social Security and Medicare are worth fighting for. Maybe OWS has reached it's highest point with the organizational structures that have kept it afloat til now and has nowhere to go but disintegration. However, to say our state and national Democratic parties are now going to act differently than they have been without a totally different way of pushing is either naive or dishonestly manipulative.
(I suspect that Seattle is just too provincial and wishy-washy to sustain something like this in a powerful way.)
Seriously, the Democratic party had been all about deficit austerity ideology for months and months before OWS came along and deflected the national narrative. And they would clearly like to get back to that. I don't care if there are a lot of "dirty hippies" (ie people with ideals they are not ashamed of) at OWS - they got the national discussion talking again about unemployment , people losing their homes, and maybe even why Social Security and Medicare are worth fighting for. Maybe OWS has reached it's highest point with the organizational structures that have kept it afloat til now and has nowhere to go but disintegration. However, to say our state and national Democratic parties are now going to act differently than they have been without a totally different way of pushing is either naive or dishonestly manipulative.
(I suspect that Seattle is just too provincial and wishy-washy to sustain something like this in a powerful way.)
128
Well, I wasn't going to attend the event until a friend called and said I needed to be there. So, I schlepped across town in the rain and the dark. I was eager to learn more about OccupySeattle and maybe even discover how I might join in some meaningful way. I'd visited OS a number of times and brought supplies but never really felt welcome or part of what was going on. (What was going on anyway? It was all pretty chaotic and confusing.)
The evening started OK with each member of the panel making introductory comments. It was clear there were very different perspectives represented. This was going to be an interesting discussion.
Unfortunately, it wasn't long before the whole event was hijacked by a handful of people who were extremely arrogant, disrespectful and rude and intent on silencing everyone who might remotely disagree with them. Where was the open hearted acceptance of people with differing ideas and opinions? No where to be seen at that point.
After most of the program time was wasted IMHO in pointless discussion about process, sanity won out and the majority decided that they really did want to use the PA system which enabled everyone to hear what was being said. (Note: The acoustics in the main hall are so bad as to make the "people's mic" barely comprehensible.)
By the time the program got back on track and discussion began, any sense of collegeality was gone. There was not sufficient time to do justice to the questions being asked by the moderator. People were still upset (I know I was) and any chance of a deepening of understanding, respect and trust among a group of people who desperately want the occupy movement to succeed was lost. What a shame.
I hope there is some real soul searching done back at SCCC as to what happened. Was this really the result that members of OS wanted? Was the hijacking planned and approved by the GA beforehand? If so, what was their point? If not, who appointed the small group of provocateurs to do what they did and why?
More...
The evening started OK with each member of the panel making introductory comments. It was clear there were very different perspectives represented. This was going to be an interesting discussion.
Unfortunately, it wasn't long before the whole event was hijacked by a handful of people who were extremely arrogant, disrespectful and rude and intent on silencing everyone who might remotely disagree with them. Where was the open hearted acceptance of people with differing ideas and opinions? No where to be seen at that point.
After most of the program time was wasted IMHO in pointless discussion about process, sanity won out and the majority decided that they really did want to use the PA system which enabled everyone to hear what was being said. (Note: The acoustics in the main hall are so bad as to make the "people's mic" barely comprehensible.)
By the time the program got back on track and discussion began, any sense of collegeality was gone. There was not sufficient time to do justice to the questions being asked by the moderator. People were still upset (I know I was) and any chance of a deepening of understanding, respect and trust among a group of people who desperately want the occupy movement to succeed was lost. What a shame.
I hope there is some real soul searching done back at SCCC as to what happened. Was this really the result that members of OS wanted? Was the hijacking planned and approved by the GA beforehand? If so, what was their point? If not, who appointed the small group of provocateurs to do what they did and why?
129
Are there any plans for a Do Over? Maybe now that the 1% fringe has had it's chance to make it's petulant statement the other 98% can have a productive discussion.
131
@121, THANK YOU!!!!
And I do believe in revolution...we've moved beyond the idea of "reform" or "changing things at the ballot box". Seriously, it's like none of you paid attention to the 2000 election when the SCOTUS selected the President. That was game over for a nice happy thoughts of creating change at the ballot box. Unless you are all fine with the President of the US deciding which citizens are to be killed by the state without even the hint of a trial. (And THAT was from "the good guy" in the White House)
And I do believe in revolution...we've moved beyond the idea of "reform" or "changing things at the ballot box". Seriously, it's like none of you paid attention to the 2000 election when the SCOTUS selected the President. That was game over for a nice happy thoughts of creating change at the ballot box. Unless you are all fine with the President of the US deciding which citizens are to be killed by the state without even the hint of a trial. (And THAT was from "the good guy" in the White House)
132
I went last night as a supporter of OS and left extremely disappointed and alienated. As many others have said, the hour of process bullshit was incredibly frustrating.
Once the show actually began, nothing of note happened. There were two questions asked of the panelists and the responses were superficial. Then the "audience" had equal time, but a bunch of what seemed to be Occupy regulars had cornered the line for the microphone. When their time came to speak, these people did not address the questions by Licata but instead talked about whatever shit fascinates and motivates them politically. I did not come to hear what a bunch of marginally-informed mostly-extremist progressives talk about anything. It is, in my estimation, extremely arrogant to presume anyone in the audience is interested in your thoughts. (A panelist would be less arrogant to assume that given that hundreds of people showed up to watch the panel.)
In a night ripe for discussion about today's most importact social movement on the left, I heard nothing of value from the entire evening.
Once the show actually began, nothing of note happened. There were two questions asked of the panelists and the responses were superficial. Then the "audience" had equal time, but a bunch of what seemed to be Occupy regulars had cornered the line for the microphone. When their time came to speak, these people did not address the questions by Licata but instead talked about whatever shit fascinates and motivates them politically. I did not come to hear what a bunch of marginally-informed mostly-extremist progressives talk about anything. It is, in my estimation, extremely arrogant to presume anyone in the audience is interested in your thoughts. (A panelist would be less arrogant to assume that given that hundreds of people showed up to watch the panel.)
In a night ripe for discussion about today's most importact social movement on the left, I heard nothing of value from the entire evening.
133
@1
I disagree on the halfwit charge: some are fully-witted in their attempts/aims to be selfish immature attention whores.
It would be nice though if they bothered to come up a platform, a 'mission' gawd forbid, that would attract broadbased support other than "hey you, you're part of our poorly defined economic demographic of anyone who's not one of the 400 richest families (and is therefore somehow automatically somehow POWERLESS) - therefore you ARE US"
the self-defeating aspect is a turnoff in the extreme,
. . . just like the guy who tells all his dates he's 100% undatable ...and them complains that FOR SOME REASON he never gets laid.
I disagree on the halfwit charge: some are fully-witted in their attempts/aims to be selfish immature attention whores.
It would be nice though if they bothered to come up a platform, a 'mission' gawd forbid, that would attract broadbased support other than "hey you, you're part of our poorly defined economic demographic of anyone who's not one of the 400 richest families (and is therefore somehow automatically somehow POWERLESS) - therefore you ARE US"
the self-defeating aspect is a turnoff in the extreme,
. . . just like the guy who tells all his dates he's 100% undatable ...and them complains that FOR SOME REASON he never gets laid.
134
I've been a cheerleader for OS and excited by the whole movement's potential to build real prosperity - a new economy where economic power is local to the greatest extent possible. And I was there last night, eager to see how the pieces could fit together, how the lightbulbs would go off for those who support, but aren't close to it day to day.
And instead I spent the night wavering between being appalled, annoyed, and fascinated. (Come to think of it, I'm having similar feelings reading these posts!)
Appalled by the rudeness (I get the shock value, but we're supporters, for crissakes).
Annoyed by having my and 400 others' time wasted by deciding the best form amplification. I was glad the guy read the GA's rules - it was a quick way for the audience to get insight into how it worked. But the rest was stupid posturing - 30 minutes x 400 people - that's 200 hours worth of the 99%'s time, not to mention alienating a bunch of people that could have been rallying their networks the next morning. Instead we're shaking our heads in confusion and sowing seeds of doubt far and wide.
And fascinated by the fact that the entire charade was all about control and domination. Isn't that what we're sick of? One group dominating another? If both parties really wanted to it could have been entirely avoided with a little better communication and shared expectations established up front. A 15 minute meeting the day before should have done it. But from what I witnessed, the point of the OSers that were on stage was to revel in their new-found power, and rub it in the face of the 'progressive establishment.' Ok, the existing progressive establishment could use some freshening up, some reminding of the priorities. And I definitely get the concern about being co-opted, to a point. But the message was "We're in control now. Move out of the way." I don't know who they meant to alienate, but it sure worked on me, and I'm sure as hell not part of the establishment.
So I'm just calling bullshit, because this is my movement too, and I'm not moving out of the way. I'm occupying my neighborhood, my economy, my bank account, my ballot, my voice. We don't have to cede our Seattle movement to revolutionaries. It's our choice. Don't roll over - buck up, dammit!
More...
And instead I spent the night wavering between being appalled, annoyed, and fascinated. (Come to think of it, I'm having similar feelings reading these posts!)
Appalled by the rudeness (I get the shock value, but we're supporters, for crissakes).
Annoyed by having my and 400 others' time wasted by deciding the best form amplification. I was glad the guy read the GA's rules - it was a quick way for the audience to get insight into how it worked. But the rest was stupid posturing - 30 minutes x 400 people - that's 200 hours worth of the 99%'s time, not to mention alienating a bunch of people that could have been rallying their networks the next morning. Instead we're shaking our heads in confusion and sowing seeds of doubt far and wide.
And fascinated by the fact that the entire charade was all about control and domination. Isn't that what we're sick of? One group dominating another? If both parties really wanted to it could have been entirely avoided with a little better communication and shared expectations established up front. A 15 minute meeting the day before should have done it. But from what I witnessed, the point of the OSers that were on stage was to revel in their new-found power, and rub it in the face of the 'progressive establishment.' Ok, the existing progressive establishment could use some freshening up, some reminding of the priorities. And I definitely get the concern about being co-opted, to a point. But the message was "We're in control now. Move out of the way." I don't know who they meant to alienate, but it sure worked on me, and I'm sure as hell not part of the establishment.
So I'm just calling bullshit, because this is my movement too, and I'm not moving out of the way. I'm occupying my neighborhood, my economy, my bank account, my ballot, my voice. We don't have to cede our Seattle movement to revolutionaries. It's our choice. Don't roll over - buck up, dammit!
135
Before, I thought this behavior was just against me, to force me out of OS. I helped start Occupy Seattle, and certain people just railroaded me. They stopped me from speaking, prevented me from doing my job, stole ideas and redefined them as their own (f*ed up ones), refused to return phone calls and emails, refused to announce scheduled teach-ins I planned, etc. They're like high school bullies, and Occupy Seattle is like high school WITHOUT money.
136
So basically OWS Seattle operates like a flame war on blog thread with the most obnoxious troll smugly declaring victory.
p.s.
I win!
p.s.
I win!
138
I had one of these jerks say I must be a cop at one of the protests. He was wearing a bandanna to cover his face, like anyone really cares who he is. Unfortunately, this is what happens when you open a movement to everyone. There's a reason some people are homeless - because they're antisocial narcissists who can't get along with people. I've seen these people shout from the periphery, poed that they don't get to own the mic the whole time, and then when they speak, it's a bunch of uninformed gobbledy-gook. It's a minority, but a destructive one.
I listened to some douchebag 'comedian' blather on for ten minutes at a rally about how voting wasn't important, and he never voted, blah blah blah. Great strategy. God, the republicans have succeeded in creating an underclass of woefully undeveloped, brutish minds.
The OWS movement is going to have to elect and secure leaders and eventually get some sort of security, that will throw disrupters out, if it's going to operate like a real political movement.
I listened to some douchebag 'comedian' blather on for ten minutes at a rally about how voting wasn't important, and he never voted, blah blah blah. Great strategy. God, the republicans have succeeded in creating an underclass of woefully undeveloped, brutish minds.
The OWS movement is going to have to elect and secure leaders and eventually get some sort of security, that will throw disrupters out, if it's going to operate like a real political movement.
139
OS is finally going after the real culprits...the vast Liberal Consensus that has strangulated all change in this country.
140
This is very sad to hear as a former Seattleite and supporter of OWS. Please watch the video from the very successful panel in NYC that I attended last week put on by The Nation and hosted by the New School. The panelists are amazing and the representative from Liberty Square is very articulate. It was a very hopeful and enlightening evening and it is too bad the protesters in Seattle couldn't let things run their course and provide dissent afterwards if they thought it necessary... There is a glowing shout out to the wto riots/protests in here from I believe both Michael Moore and Naomi Klein who were both panelists.
http://www.thenation.com/video/164494/wa…
http://www.thenation.com/video/164494/wa…
141
#140
Case in point.
Blah...blah...panel...blah...blah...discussion...blah...blah...warm cookies and tea...blah....
Case in point.
Blah...blah...panel...blah...blah...discussion...blah...blah...warm cookies and tea...blah....
142
This is very sad to hear as a former Seattleite and supporter of OWS. Please watch the video from the very successful panel in NYC that I attended last week put on by The Nation and hosted by the New School. The panelists are amazing and the representative from Liberty Square is very articulate. It was a very hopeful and enlightening evening and it is too bad the protesters in Seattle couldn't let things run their course and provide dissent afterwards if they thought it necessary...
http://www.thenation.com/video/164494/wa…
Don't feel that the negative energy that exists with a few occupy seattle kids is representative of the whole movement!
http://www.thenation.com/video/164494/wa…
Don't feel that the negative energy that exists with a few occupy seattle kids is representative of the whole movement!
145
Occupy Lego Land
Occupy Lego Land is complete with protesters, signs, buildings and even an accurate-to-scale model of the 70-foot steel scuplture, ”Joie de Vivre” by artist Mark di Suvero that stands at the corner of Zuccotti Park.
http://blogs.marketwatch.com/specialrepo…
146
@115 you say "the far bigger downer to me is how many people on this thread seem ready to throw away the whole idea of OWS because they disagree with some tactics used by fringe" yet isn't that exactly what many of the OS "activists" are calling for in the case of the American Government?
When something is broken, you fix it. I feel the same way about our government as I do OS and in both cases I see a lot of breakage. The difference is seen when I look at the fact that progressives have a stronger voice in each election, while it seems the voice of anyone who doesn't wear ratty black clothes and smell like cheese is discounted almost immediately by OS.
I've been politically active for about 25 years now. I've helped stage sit-ins that changed state laws, I've gone to and helped organize countless rallies, have committed civil disobedience, and have twice been a part of the occupation of a park. Never did I feel that the message of my comrades fell upon deaf ears or see it become so marginalized by the media. I hold my ability to take the advice of people who'd been doing the same thing I was for decades before me directly responsible for that.
I was spending time at OS before the move to SCCC, and while I was there discussed with many the protocols of good activism. Suggestions like "maybe if you don't want the press to report that you're a bunch of drug fiends you shouldn't be smoking pot in front of the cameras" were met with insult. If you're going to call me- a middle aged, well educated, highly skilled tradesman who can't find a job better than washing dishes in a bar- a "tool of the fascists" for suggesting you follow protocols that have been time-proven to make a movement strong, then I have no time to support your effort.
It seems to me that the majority, not the fringe, of the current OS group are nihilists and narcissists who think they speak for the 99%. My advice to them is if you want to claim to speak for the 99% start acting in a way that at least a majority of us will approve. As long as you disrupt the forums of your allies, reject those of us who have ideas that may differ from yours, and see anyone who rejects your misguided methods as "a tool of the fascists" you will never have the support or attention you so greatly crave.
More...
When something is broken, you fix it. I feel the same way about our government as I do OS and in both cases I see a lot of breakage. The difference is seen when I look at the fact that progressives have a stronger voice in each election, while it seems the voice of anyone who doesn't wear ratty black clothes and smell like cheese is discounted almost immediately by OS.
I've been politically active for about 25 years now. I've helped stage sit-ins that changed state laws, I've gone to and helped organize countless rallies, have committed civil disobedience, and have twice been a part of the occupation of a park. Never did I feel that the message of my comrades fell upon deaf ears or see it become so marginalized by the media. I hold my ability to take the advice of people who'd been doing the same thing I was for decades before me directly responsible for that.
I was spending time at OS before the move to SCCC, and while I was there discussed with many the protocols of good activism. Suggestions like "maybe if you don't want the press to report that you're a bunch of drug fiends you shouldn't be smoking pot in front of the cameras" were met with insult. If you're going to call me- a middle aged, well educated, highly skilled tradesman who can't find a job better than washing dishes in a bar- a "tool of the fascists" for suggesting you follow protocols that have been time-proven to make a movement strong, then I have no time to support your effort.
It seems to me that the majority, not the fringe, of the current OS group are nihilists and narcissists who think they speak for the 99%. My advice to them is if you want to claim to speak for the 99% start acting in a way that at least a majority of us will approve. As long as you disrupt the forums of your allies, reject those of us who have ideas that may differ from yours, and see anyone who rejects your misguided methods as "a tool of the fascists" you will never have the support or attention you so greatly crave.
147
Everyone calling for arrest: I hope someday you are beaten down and pepper sprayed for your opinions.
148
This is the sort of shit that makes people wish Richard J. Daley came back to life, took over Seattle, and started cracking skulls.
150
I'm not giving up on activism just because people of Seattle do it wrong. People of Seattle do everything wrong, and thank stars the movement is not depending on OccupySeattle and that our small embarrassing bubble of occupiers isn't trying for more than just the occasional dance parties. This movement will succeed, and it will have zero to do with Seattle's branch of it. You can't feign interest and be taken seriously when you're 22, new to the area, and have given nary a fuck about politics and police abuse ever in your life.
Fuck your dance parties, fuck your self-serving attention-whoring. Fuck you going where you're told, and fuck you're double rainbows all the way across the sky. You don't have the spirit, Seattle, and while occupiers are a billion times less insufferable than the drab, ignorant, desperate to be lead know-nothings like Fnarf who eat the shit off the shoes of their masters and smile about it, while asking with hope, "thank you sir, is your boot ready to go back up my ass?", you do not inspire the way Oakland, NYC, Denver, Portland, etc do. Especially when viewed by those of us whom have actually known strife, and seen this decade dissipate finally into the cesspool we all knew was coming for years.
If you want to throw dance parties, and camp, and bitch a whole lot about what you do not know, fine. But you are purely symbolic.
And if you assholes who fancied yourself real activists "back in the day" are not occupying simply because a couple of kiddos are acting their age, and that's why you haven't joined, you were never really activists to begin with, and were probably just like the gits you are now blaming because you don't have any fighting attitude left in you but you don't want to admit your laziness. Seattle's populace are masters at the copouts, no matter how small. Both the apathetic fools and the youth who think this is a party pretty much equally make me sick.
More...
Fuck your dance parties, fuck your self-serving attention-whoring. Fuck you going where you're told, and fuck you're double rainbows all the way across the sky. You don't have the spirit, Seattle, and while occupiers are a billion times less insufferable than the drab, ignorant, desperate to be lead know-nothings like Fnarf who eat the shit off the shoes of their masters and smile about it, while asking with hope, "thank you sir, is your boot ready to go back up my ass?", you do not inspire the way Oakland, NYC, Denver, Portland, etc do. Especially when viewed by those of us whom have actually known strife, and seen this decade dissipate finally into the cesspool we all knew was coming for years.
If you want to throw dance parties, and camp, and bitch a whole lot about what you do not know, fine. But you are purely symbolic.
And if you assholes who fancied yourself real activists "back in the day" are not occupying simply because a couple of kiddos are acting their age, and that's why you haven't joined, you were never really activists to begin with, and were probably just like the gits you are now blaming because you don't have any fighting attitude left in you but you don't want to admit your laziness. Seattle's populace are masters at the copouts, no matter how small. Both the apathetic fools and the youth who think this is a party pretty much equally make me sick.
151
Do you need more proof that most of these people simply need anger management training? this is how they describe the people they prefer over the 'liberals':
"Fuck your dance parties, fuck your self-serving attention-whoring. Fuck you going where you're told, and fuck you're double rainbows all the way across the sky. You don't have the spirit, Seattle, and while occupiers are a billion times less insufferable"
Could you imagine having one of these people at Thanksgiving dinner (sorry, "Genocide Remembrance Day") in a few weeks? Pass the white meat....yipes!
"Fuck your dance parties, fuck your self-serving attention-whoring. Fuck you going where you're told, and fuck you're double rainbows all the way across the sky. You don't have the spirit, Seattle, and while occupiers are a billion times less insufferable"
Could you imagine having one of these people at Thanksgiving dinner (sorry, "Genocide Remembrance Day") in a few weeks? Pass the white meat....yipes!
152
@148 I agree that the Occupiers are obnoxious and have worn out their welcome, but I think there is good reason not to use heavy handed police tactics against them. Police violence directed against peaceful protestors can turn harmless hippies into left-wing terrorists. The Weather Underground formed in response to the behavior of the Chicago police during the 1968 Democratic Convention. A bit more police overtime now may be the price we pay to avoid dealing with a long haired version of Timothy McVeigh later.
154
Both the ignorant fools beholden to suckling the corporate pigs *and* the flighty youth who think this is a party make me equally sick.
155
This is exactly the sort of shit that has kept me and my friends from joining the OWS protests. I agree with what they say but this sort of thing is BS. I was laying in the slush on the ground in the middle of an intersection in Pittsburgh to protest us going into Iraq but that protest was organized and respectful. Speakers were allowed to speak and people from the crowd got their speaking time too.
This bullshit will bury the OWS movement just as surely as the racists and ideologues buried the Tea Party. Unfortunately the Tea Party at least got their shit together long enough to get a shitload of people elected to congress so they actually GOT SOMETHING DONE. OWS is going to self destruct long before they actually do anything useful. That makes me very sad.
This bullshit will bury the OWS movement just as surely as the racists and ideologues buried the Tea Party. Unfortunately the Tea Party at least got their shit together long enough to get a shitload of people elected to congress so they actually GOT SOMETHING DONE. OWS is going to self destruct long before they actually do anything useful. That makes me very sad.
156
It's interesting that the OWS people can so easily be forgiven, that it is just a few bad apples. That you should judge a whole group by the actions of just a few. Buy the Tea Party is absolutely labled by the actions of a few. I'm thinking of the uncertified racist comments. There were mere accusations made against the Tea Party and it stuck. Yet, with all the cameras around no one can provide proof of such actions. Somehow the principles of the Tea Party were all of the sudden racist by view of the media. To my mind the Tea Party folks demonstrated precisely how civil discourse should pursued. What's more thier actions brought about change (whether you like it or not). It doesn't seem that the OWS movement stands for anything in particular and will result in changing nothing in particular (whether you agree with their principles or not).
158
If an "action" doesn't help move an issue toward resolution or build the organization it shouldn't be done. Building means: increasing understanding, increasing participation, increasing the treasury, i.e. increasing power.
159
This "Occupy" movement will eat itself through its own hypocrisy and stupidity...oh wait, it already has.
160
Hmmm, smells like ... RCP? The people who wrecked the "Day without a Mexican" movement. And yeah, they ARE government plants.
161
You know who was the ultimate Occupier?
Saddam Hussein...he took over a country. He had an Army. He had modern weapons.
And you know what happened to him when he thumbed his nose at the central paradigm? Yeah, they flushed his ass out of there.
So unless you at least have UAVs, and depleted uranium shells on cruisers...you will be beat.
Saddam Hussein...he took over a country. He had an Army. He had modern weapons.
And you know what happened to him when he thumbed his nose at the central paradigm? Yeah, they flushed his ass out of there.
So unless you at least have UAVs, and depleted uranium shells on cruisers...you will be beat.
162
The People's Mic is actually kind of creepy, IMO. Comes across like watching the Borg, or some kind of religious ceremony.
163
Dominic should know all about divisiveness... Although the Townhall meeting was disappointing,The Stranger, this includes Dominic, has become one of the most divisive piece of "jouranalism" I've ever read.
164
The basic problem with Occupy *.* is that its core purpose is to protest...not actually accomplish anything but about, frankly, hating banks/the 'rich'/whatever keeps the protest going. "What are you rebelling against?" "Whatcha got?" seems to be the point of Occupy *.* rather than any guiding principle or set of principles. What little 'this is what we stand for' is provided is the standard far-left social rhetoric leaving no room for anyone who isn't far-left -- tolerance indeed.
Additionally odd, is that when the "pure egalitarian democracy" breaks down -- as it must when any degree of power is involved -- the arguments that are made are almost word-for-word the arguments the republicans are making (sans red-meat rhetoric). My favorite has to be the griping about the homeless 'freeloading' off the protester's...but there is absolutely no ability to note the hypocrisy inherent in the complaint.
Pure-Democracy can't exist and anyone who believes it can is...willfully blind and self-deluding. Too many decisions need to be made in any society greater than three people. Societies of only a few families need to compartmentalize responsibility and cities even more so, and nations...hello? anyone thinking out there? Representative Democracy -- a Republic -- is as close as we can get, which is the type of government formed in the US. We, the voting populace, NEED to stay informed and MUST stay engaged, else we can never vote properly or advise properly -- both are sacred duties of every citizen -- but we have the government we deserve because we don't think, I mean -really- think about who we elect, or how we allow the election process to function, and with the information available for us today, there is truly no excuse. But "omg we need democracy"??? Noooo, thanks. (See, Occupy *.*, if you'd -had- a structure, you'd have rules against the corruption within the Occupy *.* upper-echelons but...well...you get exactly what you deserve and you'll note the fantasy doesn't work, just like "99%" of liberal ideas: they're fantasy on paper that can't be applied to the real world)
The most amusing thing, though, is that they are compared to the Tea Party... damned if I know why. Do a very polite, quiet, sign-based demonstration, not trying to disrupt, just peacefully protest, at Occupy *.* and you're apt to get threatened, told to clear off, or worse. Tea Party? Not an unkind word said, no intimidation, just walked on by and let a peaceful protest of their rally happen. Some even engaged the protesters in polite conversation, and polite arguments, and that's as heated as it got. -That- is tolerance.
And, for the record, I'm not beholden to any side of the isle. I look, analyze, and think for myself. I, too, am aghast that no one from Wall Street (et. al.) hasn't been tossed in jail over this mess, but I also ask: did they actually break any laws? And, more importantly, why the hell did Glass-Stegal get repealed in the first place? (that last to Bill Clinton) Who are the morons who enabled this mess in congress, eh Mr. Frank? (anyone paying attention saw you berate the auditors who tried to bring the problems of Freddie/Fannie to light). Then again, if you really want to alter Wall Street, look at the politicians they're financing and by how much. If you do, you'll note Obama has both gotten more FROM Wall Street than any other politician and done more FOR Wall Street in the process. And you -- ha! -- call the republicans the party of wall street?!? Wow...just...wow.
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Additionally odd, is that when the "pure egalitarian democracy" breaks down -- as it must when any degree of power is involved -- the arguments that are made are almost word-for-word the arguments the republicans are making (sans red-meat rhetoric). My favorite has to be the griping about the homeless 'freeloading' off the protester's...but there is absolutely no ability to note the hypocrisy inherent in the complaint.
Pure-Democracy can't exist and anyone who believes it can is...willfully blind and self-deluding. Too many decisions need to be made in any society greater than three people. Societies of only a few families need to compartmentalize responsibility and cities even more so, and nations...hello? anyone thinking out there? Representative Democracy -- a Republic -- is as close as we can get, which is the type of government formed in the US. We, the voting populace, NEED to stay informed and MUST stay engaged, else we can never vote properly or advise properly -- both are sacred duties of every citizen -- but we have the government we deserve because we don't think, I mean -really- think about who we elect, or how we allow the election process to function, and with the information available for us today, there is truly no excuse. But "omg we need democracy"??? Noooo, thanks. (See, Occupy *.*, if you'd -had- a structure, you'd have rules against the corruption within the Occupy *.* upper-echelons but...well...you get exactly what you deserve and you'll note the fantasy doesn't work, just like "99%" of liberal ideas: they're fantasy on paper that can't be applied to the real world)
The most amusing thing, though, is that they are compared to the Tea Party... damned if I know why. Do a very polite, quiet, sign-based demonstration, not trying to disrupt, just peacefully protest, at Occupy *.* and you're apt to get threatened, told to clear off, or worse. Tea Party? Not an unkind word said, no intimidation, just walked on by and let a peaceful protest of their rally happen. Some even engaged the protesters in polite conversation, and polite arguments, and that's as heated as it got. -That- is tolerance.
And, for the record, I'm not beholden to any side of the isle. I look, analyze, and think for myself. I, too, am aghast that no one from Wall Street (et. al.) hasn't been tossed in jail over this mess, but I also ask: did they actually break any laws? And, more importantly, why the hell did Glass-Stegal get repealed in the first place? (that last to Bill Clinton) Who are the morons who enabled this mess in congress, eh Mr. Frank? (anyone paying attention saw you berate the auditors who tried to bring the problems of Freddie/Fannie to light). Then again, if you really want to alter Wall Street, look at the politicians they're financing and by how much. If you do, you'll note Obama has both gotten more FROM Wall Street than any other politician and done more FOR Wall Street in the process. And you -- ha! -- call the republicans the party of wall street?!? Wow...just...wow.
165
Everything is going as planned with OWS. There are enough boots on the ground nationwide and will continue to be, especially come next spring. That's not a concern.
#156, if you think the Tea Bagger town hall meetings are the direction that should be taken, you ought to be happy with the way last night's went. Remember August 2009 when the world was ending due to potentially looming single payer health insurance? Here's a refresher:
http://youtu.be/nYlZiWK2Iy8
http://youtu.be/lDWMxquNIpE
http://youtu.be/gS4MI8fuXzw
http://youtu.be/aAm6Qck5v78
The Tea Party won some elections, but they certainly didn't do so with a high level of discourse that should be admired or emulated. Disruptions abounded with vitriol at their town hall meetings, so I doubt the few mild disruptions by OWS will hurt us. It didn't hurt teabaggers, after all, and their behavior was nothing compared to OWS.
The 'Baggers stand for nothing. Their party was bought and paid for and handed a script, literally, which they followed.Some were paid to attend town hall meetings. They didn't get ppl elected, DIRTY MONEY did, while the Tea Baggers distracted the nation by yelling and yelling and yelling hateful lies. Not racist? Not bigots? Hrmm. You sure Rand Paul didn't say anything racist? O_o
Sarah Palin winked and read from her hand. Dick Armey pulled the puppet strings. Attention-whores showed up with guns to prove the point that they were lacking in "other areas". How did they win elections anyway? Ask that, and you've identified the core issues of OWS. That isn't the kind of world OWS wants to live in any longer. For some, it's a matter of life and death that they do not, as they or their children die from lack of health care, or nutrients, in a rich Western nation. This shamefulness is ending. Finally.
It would also do to remember that OccupySeattle =/= OccupyWallStreet.
More...
#156, if you think the Tea Bagger town hall meetings are the direction that should be taken, you ought to be happy with the way last night's went. Remember August 2009 when the world was ending due to potentially looming single payer health insurance? Here's a refresher:
http://youtu.be/nYlZiWK2Iy8
http://youtu.be/lDWMxquNIpE
http://youtu.be/gS4MI8fuXzw
http://youtu.be/aAm6Qck5v78
The Tea Party won some elections, but they certainly didn't do so with a high level of discourse that should be admired or emulated. Disruptions abounded with vitriol at their town hall meetings, so I doubt the few mild disruptions by OWS will hurt us. It didn't hurt teabaggers, after all, and their behavior was nothing compared to OWS.
The 'Baggers stand for nothing. Their party was bought and paid for and handed a script, literally, which they followed.Some were paid to attend town hall meetings. They didn't get ppl elected, DIRTY MONEY did, while the Tea Baggers distracted the nation by yelling and yelling and yelling hateful lies. Not racist? Not bigots? Hrmm. You sure Rand Paul didn't say anything racist? O_o
Sarah Palin winked and read from her hand. Dick Armey pulled the puppet strings. Attention-whores showed up with guns to prove the point that they were lacking in "other areas". How did they win elections anyway? Ask that, and you've identified the core issues of OWS. That isn't the kind of world OWS wants to live in any longer. For some, it's a matter of life and death that they do not, as they or their children die from lack of health care, or nutrients, in a rich Western nation. This shamefulness is ending. Finally.
It would also do to remember that OccupySeattle =/= OccupyWallStreet.
166
@161 Martin Luther King and Mohandas Gandhi got things done w/o UAVs or depleted uranium shells. Don't be a nitwit, SROTU.
167
Hey look, I am comment number 162. How many people will actually hear my voice? I must be a minority, or perhaps it is due to this unjust unequal method of communication. Perhaps its an issue with existing organizations that are motivated around their own self interest squashing a minority voice. It doesn't matter if we are here to talk about the same thing, if the only people that are heard, and the only ideas that are presented, are the ones that conveniently push forward your own agenda, conveniently leave out the parts you don't want to hear, then its not a healthy or helpful conversation.
The scary part is that most people don't realize when communication has become unhealthy, they don't realize when its one sided, so sometimes you need a wake up call. Wake up, and stop silencing minority groups. Even if they are crazy BO smelling radicals, their voice is our recognition of a major injustice in the system of "free speech". If you can't understand why your panel is broken, then "wasting" an hour of your time was more important then you can imagine.
The scary part is that most people don't realize when communication has become unhealthy, they don't realize when its one sided, so sometimes you need a wake up call. Wake up, and stop silencing minority groups. Even if they are crazy BO smelling radicals, their voice is our recognition of a major injustice in the system of "free speech". If you can't understand why your panel is broken, then "wasting" an hour of your time was more important then you can imagine.
168
#164 - "Tea Party? Not an unkind word said, no intimidation, just walked on by and let a peaceful protest of their rally happen. Some even engaged the protesters in polite conversation, and polite arguments, and that's as heated as it got. -That- is tolerance."
I am going to die laughing.
There's a thing called the Internet, see, and on it is this place called YouTube, which has these colorful moving pictures with sound, and they rather plainly blow your little statement out of the fucking atmosphere, dozens and dozens of times, w/r/t how "polite" Tea Baggers are. Christ. That was sad but hilarious, thanks.
I am going to die laughing.
There's a thing called the Internet, see, and on it is this place called YouTube, which has these colorful moving pictures with sound, and they rather plainly blow your little statement out of the fucking atmosphere, dozens and dozens of times, w/r/t how "polite" Tea Baggers are. Christ. That was sad but hilarious, thanks.
169
What a whiney report. BO? Really? I didn't smell any BO. I also noticed that initially the crowd was annoyed by the theatrics, but by the end of the GA rules announcements, they seemed to have come around and understood the general assembly process a lot better and weren't annoyed any longer. It did take time and some of us, including me, got impatient, but democracy is messy and takes time.
I agree that the "wrap it up" hand gestures were rude, and I yelled that to one of the guys who was doing it. I said "Don't do that. That's rude!" and he heard me. Whether that made a difference, I don't know, but I spoke up.
I'd like to hear from some of the attendees who attended the GA afterwards or others who didn't hate the process....
I agree that the "wrap it up" hand gestures were rude, and I yelled that to one of the guys who was doing it. I said "Don't do that. That's rude!" and he heard me. Whether that made a difference, I don't know, but I spoke up.
I'd like to hear from some of the attendees who attended the GA afterwards or others who didn't hate the process....
170
Hey look, I am comment number 162. How many people will actually hear my voice? I must be a minority, or perhaps it is due to this unjust unequal method of communication. Perhaps its an issue with existing organizations that are motivated around their own self interest squashing a minority voice. It doesn't matter if we are here to talk about the same thing, if the only people that are heard, and the only ideas that are presented, are the ones that conveniently push forward your own agenda, conveniently leave out the parts you don't want to hear, then its not a healthy or helpful conversation.
The scary part is that most people don't realize when communication has become unhealthy, they don't realize when its one sided, so sometimes you need a wake up call. Wake up, and stop silencing minority groups. Even if they are crazy BO smelling radicals, their voice is our recognition of a major injustice in the system of "free speech". If you can't understand why your panel is broken, then "wasting" an hour of your time was more important then you can imagine.
The scary part is that most people don't realize when communication has become unhealthy, they don't realize when its one sided, so sometimes you need a wake up call. Wake up, and stop silencing minority groups. Even if they are crazy BO smelling radicals, their voice is our recognition of a major injustice in the system of "free speech". If you can't understand why your panel is broken, then "wasting" an hour of your time was more important then you can imagine.
171
Certainly there are valid points here about proper outreach. The type of disruption displayed here is no more healthy then the broken system, for sure. But when a handful of individuals are chosen as representatives, representatives that were not voted for, and may or may not actually be capable of representing us, then we are right back to where we started, in a broken government with broken free speech and misrepresentation.
172
I personally would like to see some honest reporting here. What I mean is, how about the names/pictures of the disruptors so that the movement(s) can 'police' their own???
173
@171:
"then we are right back to where we started, in a broken government with broken free speech and misrepresentation."
I was unaware that this Town Hall forum was actually a government body. I thought it was a forum where people came to hear the panel discuss issues and to comment afterwords.
Maybe you are confusing it with City Hall?
"then we are right back to where we started, in a broken government with broken free speech and misrepresentation."
I was unaware that this Town Hall forum was actually a government body. I thought it was a forum where people came to hear the panel discuss issues and to comment afterwords.
Maybe you are confusing it with City Hall?
174
"While I think it is childish to bring focus to activists' personal hygiene,"
Bullshit. This isn't about free expression, it's about winning a war that the 1% began. You put your best fucking foot forward. The OWS spokespeople that keep getting trotted out by committee are a joke. This, the two morons they sent to Colbert, all of it. You put forward neatly trimmed people that can speak to and that the bulk and majority of the 99% can relate to.
Ever wonder why Martin Luther King had everyone march and protest in their "Sunday Best"?
Bullshit. This isn't about free expression, it's about winning a war that the 1% began. You put your best fucking foot forward. The OWS spokespeople that keep getting trotted out by committee are a joke. This, the two morons they sent to Colbert, all of it. You put forward neatly trimmed people that can speak to and that the bulk and majority of the 99% can relate to.
Ever wonder why Martin Luther King had everyone march and protest in their "Sunday Best"?
177
Casey, maybe when the Stranger is telling you that you are being too confrontational it should cause some introspection.
But I guess attacking the messenger is a lot easier.
But I guess attacking the messenger is a lot easier.
178
Predictable, laughable and a perfect illustration of both the now-discredited Occupy movement and the "thinking" behind it.
Nationally, if you add up Occupy's many crimes and anti-social behavior (one of my favorites is dumping urine in the face of a Victoria, BC municipal worker trying to get a bicycle out of a tree) the list evidences a level of undisciplined deviancy unrivaled since Occupy's predecessor the hippie movement.
It's marvelous to see your enemy self-destruct before your eyes in such entertaining fashion.
Nationally, if you add up Occupy's many crimes and anti-social behavior (one of my favorites is dumping urine in the face of a Victoria, BC municipal worker trying to get a bicycle out of a tree) the list evidences a level of undisciplined deviancy unrivaled since Occupy's predecessor the hippie movement.
It's marvelous to see your enemy self-destruct before your eyes in such entertaining fashion.
179
Back in the '60s, the mentally ill were institutionalized.
Back in the late '70s and early '80s, the rightwingers dumped them out on the streets, and if you'll recall, Gov. Gary "Offshore" Locke also dumped some out on the street with those cutbacks at Western Hospital for the Criminally Insane.
This is a major problem today. There were predators and a few crazies back in the '60s, but nothing like there exists today.
That is the major problem with any and every form of protest, aside from the obvious agents provacateur.
Back in the late '70s and early '80s, the rightwingers dumped them out on the streets, and if you'll recall, Gov. Gary "Offshore" Locke also dumped some out on the street with those cutbacks at Western Hospital for the Criminally Insane.
This is a major problem today. There were predators and a few crazies back in the '60s, but nothing like there exists today.
That is the major problem with any and every form of protest, aside from the obvious agents provacateur.
180
What's so sad about this comment thread is that I can no longer guess which comments are heartfelt-albeit-misguided and which are just sarcasm or parody.
When self-appointed spokesmen, possible agents provocateurs, and snarky commenters can't be distinguished from one another, the movement has a problem.
When self-appointed spokesmen, possible agents provocateurs, and snarky commenters can't be distinguished from one another, the movement has a problem.
181
This is like every political event I went to in college which always, no matter what the event was about, devolved into an anarchist, anti-Israel free-for-all during the free comment period at the end of the night. Most of those assholes looked like they walked out of a Red Scare poster from 1919/1920.
182
I don't want OWS to end. I want it to keep going, as an abject lesson in the failure of a fundamentally flawed ideology. Hopefully, those under 16 will look upon these people and see them for the fucktards they are, and use their portrait in stupidity as a guide so that they do not follow the path of navel-gazing socio-entitlism.
183
I am hereby announcing that only pro-capitalist anti-libertarian fucktwads can call themselves Occupy Greater Seattle and only the anarchist libertarian fucktwads can call themselves Occupy Lesser Seattle.
Here endeth the lesson.
Here endeth the lesson.
184
@175 The divisiveness horse is out of the barn: trotted into Town Hall by a very vocal, intolerant contingent from OS that wanted to fuck the forum and control the stage. The Stranger's reporting on this is accurate. Try accepting responsibility for blowing an hour over tactics and process, alienating hundreds of potential supporters in the process.
I've given money to and supported OS with my presence over the last several weeks. No more. Too many comments in this thread attest to the biases, insularity, and extreme projective behavior from the core of OS.
I've given money to and supported OS with my presence over the last several weeks. No more. Too many comments in this thread attest to the biases, insularity, and extreme projective behavior from the core of OS.
186
I was there too. It was very uncomfortable. But it was important! And I believe the process–or lack of process–was a metaphor for what’s going on in the big picture.
These young Americans are on the front lines trying to take on Business As Usual in our country and around the world. The People’s Mic v the Mic as Usual was just a metaphor. They are the first ones to actually get off their couches and try to affect change since the 1960s. If it made some of us uncomfortable to watch and listen as they used their process to make their points–and not all of their points were shared by all of them (or us)–then I applaud the outcome. It was real and raw and beautiful. We all learned something!
And if there were some extreme and marginalized voices among them, I applaud them again. One of the most heartening (and disheartening) aspects of the Occupy encampments is the allure it holds for the most unfortunate among us. Drug addicts? Check. Homeless? Check. Mentally Ill? Check. These throw away people are being fed and shown respect in the encampments even though the burdens they place on the Occupy Movement is enormous– and is ultimately used against them. But they take it on as part of their responsibility to be inclusive–even when it threatens to make the movement a target for vilification (and subsequent removal) based on law enforcement concerns for health and safety. As if.
Let’s recognize the important contribution the Occupy movement is making, even if some aspects of it challenge our ideas. Like our ideas have worked out so well, eh?
I highly recommend attending a general assembly meeting. You can go to Occupyseattle.org, go to the calendar and find one. Don’t rely on the media to tell you what to think. Go and see for yourself.
These young Americans are on the front lines trying to take on Business As Usual in our country and around the world. The People’s Mic v the Mic as Usual was just a metaphor. They are the first ones to actually get off their couches and try to affect change since the 1960s. If it made some of us uncomfortable to watch and listen as they used their process to make their points–and not all of their points were shared by all of them (or us)–then I applaud the outcome. It was real and raw and beautiful. We all learned something!
And if there were some extreme and marginalized voices among them, I applaud them again. One of the most heartening (and disheartening) aspects of the Occupy encampments is the allure it holds for the most unfortunate among us. Drug addicts? Check. Homeless? Check. Mentally Ill? Check. These throw away people are being fed and shown respect in the encampments even though the burdens they place on the Occupy Movement is enormous– and is ultimately used against them. But they take it on as part of their responsibility to be inclusive–even when it threatens to make the movement a target for vilification (and subsequent removal) based on law enforcement concerns for health and safety. As if.
Let’s recognize the important contribution the Occupy movement is making, even if some aspects of it challenge our ideas. Like our ideas have worked out so well, eh?
I highly recommend attending a general assembly meeting. You can go to Occupyseattle.org, go to the calendar and find one. Don’t rely on the media to tell you what to think. Go and see for yourself.
187
@187: But if there's an actual mic there... and the acoustics suck... doesn't that make the insistance on the People's Mic an amazing metaphor for throwing out the baby with the bathwater? Change for the sake of change? Making the process more important than the results?
Also: it disenfranchised the elders in the crowd who ARE a marginalized voice and a vulnerable population.
Also: it disenfranchised the elders in the crowd who ARE a marginalized voice and a vulnerable population.
190
The People's Mic is more than just an amplification system. It's a process to get people thinking about what they're going to say BEFORE they say it. THREE TIMES! Most people don't tend to go on and fucking on when they hear themselves being repeated.
191
I walked with the Occupy Seattle movement when they marched from Westlake to the hotel the Chase bank president was staying at a couple of weeks ago. Part of the group tried to stay organized and walked on the sidewalk. Another part of the group decided to take to the street, clogging traffic at rush hour as they walked. When they hit the cross street where they were supposed to take a right the organized sidewalk people turned the correct way. The people that took to the street missed the turn and headed the wrong way, bringing a substantial part of the group behind them. Eventually they were shouted back onto the route.
I want to believe in this movement so bad. But if they can't make it a few blocks what hope do they really have?
I want to believe in this movement so bad. But if they can't make it a few blocks what hope do they really have?
192
@190
Yes, exactly. The People's Mic is not, as outside observers often conclude, a "cultish" mechanism of controlling or brainwashing the audience; it is rather a method of controlling the speaker.
This is why the core organizers of GAs and OWS insist on using The People's Mic even when amplification is available or unnecessary.
Yes, exactly. The People's Mic is not, as outside observers often conclude, a "cultish" mechanism of controlling or brainwashing the audience; it is rather a method of controlling the speaker.
This is why the core organizers of GAs and OWS insist on using The People's Mic even when amplification is available or unnecessary.
194
@190 and @192
While it may be true that the people's mic forces speakers to choose their words more carefully, the fact remains that it was developed as a response to the police not allowing those in Zuccotti Park to use electronic amplification.
While it may be true that the people's mic forces speakers to choose their words more carefully, the fact remains that it was developed as a response to the police not allowing those in Zuccotti Park to use electronic amplification.
195
I absolutely love that the Occupy participants are creating/learning new methods for conducting public process. We don't teach Robert's Rules in school anymore and our democratic process is noticeably worse off for it.
I absolutely hate that the Occupy participants seem to think that they're the first group to ever try this exercise and seem to remain ignorant of previous attempts to deal with the issue of efficient participatory process.
And their open scorn of other peoples attempting to use other methods --combined with that ignorance-- is at best a pitiful and sad statement about how deep rooted our societal failings actually do go.
:(
I absolutely hate that the Occupy participants seem to think that they're the first group to ever try this exercise and seem to remain ignorant of previous attempts to deal with the issue of efficient participatory process.
And their open scorn of other peoples attempting to use other methods --combined with that ignorance-- is at best a pitiful and sad statement about how deep rooted our societal failings actually do go.
:(
196
@194
Actually, that's simply not the case. The People's Mic was developed long before OWS, and used regularly in the Global Justice Movement. It's an old tool for organizing "horizontal" social groups, particularly protests.
OWS was initiated as a Direct Action, i.e. in deliberate violation of the law; this is why the protest did not and still does not seek permits from the city of New York. Given this fundamental opposition to legitimizing authority, why on earth would they accomodate that very same authority's laws and rules about amplification?
Also, I could be wrong about this, but I don't think there has ever been a police ban on amplification in Zuccotti park. The People's Mic there often uses bullhorns, and PA systems have been set up and ready to use at plenty of events, including GAs.
David Graeber wrote an article in 1992 that includes a description of many of the structural tools used in GAs today.
Actually, that's simply not the case. The People's Mic was developed long before OWS, and used regularly in the Global Justice Movement. It's an old tool for organizing "horizontal" social groups, particularly protests.
OWS was initiated as a Direct Action, i.e. in deliberate violation of the law; this is why the protest did not and still does not seek permits from the city of New York. Given this fundamental opposition to legitimizing authority, why on earth would they accomodate that very same authority's laws and rules about amplification?
Also, I could be wrong about this, but I don't think there has ever been a police ban on amplification in Zuccotti park. The People's Mic there often uses bullhorns, and PA systems have been set up and ready to use at plenty of events, including GAs.
David Graeber wrote an article in 1992 that includes a description of many of the structural tools used in GAs today.
197
It's my understanding from this wiki article and the sources it cites that due to NY City requiring permits for amplified sound they resorted to using the people's mic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_Wall…
Sorry, my mistake in saying the word developed. Though it certainly has popularized it more than a 2002 article in "New Left Review."
Sorry, my mistake in saying the word developed. Though it certainly has popularized it more than a 2002 article in "New Left Review."
199
@196
"Given this fundamental opposition to legitimizing authority, why on earth would they accomodate that very same authority's laws and rules about amplification?"
Is it your claim that any authority that does not practice direct democracy like an Occupy GA can be legitimate? Or simply that you find the current authority to be illegitimate?
"Given this fundamental opposition to legitimizing authority, why on earth would they accomodate that very same authority's laws and rules about amplification?"
Is it your claim that any authority that does not practice direct democracy like an Occupy GA can be legitimate? Or simply that you find the current authority to be illegitimate?
200
sorry double negative typo: Is it your claim that any authority that does not practice direct democracy like an Occupy GA CAN NOT therefore be a legitimate authority?*
201
So many people at Occupy Town Hall were put off by the protracted time all the pesky voting was taking. Then the thought of having to listen to someone's comments being repeated only worried them more. It would double the time! Actually, I think the People's Mic would have made it shorter. The twinkling (vs clapping) certainly cuts down on time.
202
@197
Again, OWS deliberately chose not to obtain a permit, i.e., they chose to break the law. Why legitimize the amplification law when the whole point is to delegitimize authority?
The AP article cited (no longer publicly accessible) seems to think the hand signals (described in both Graeber articles I've linked) were invented by OWS, so I don't expect its information about the Human Microphone to be any better researched.
The article in The Nation does not look into the history of these tools at all, and has no quote from city officials on amplification.
Once a myth (or perhaps rationalization) like this gets popularized, it tends to become self-perpetuating; people repeat it to each other, and the media quotes them without digging, then more people hear about it via the media...
Again, OWS deliberately chose not to obtain a permit, i.e., they chose to break the law. Why legitimize the amplification law when the whole point is to delegitimize authority?
The AP article cited (no longer publicly accessible) seems to think the hand signals (described in both Graeber articles I've linked) were invented by OWS, so I don't expect its information about the Human Microphone to be any better researched.
The article in The Nation does not look into the history of these tools at all, and has no quote from city officials on amplification.
Once a myth (or perhaps rationalization) like this gets popularized, it tends to become self-perpetuating; people repeat it to each other, and the media quotes them without digging, then more people hear about it via the media...
203
@200
I have no dog in that fight; I'm citing the goals of the people who planned and initiated OWS (see my first link, @192).
Graeber's article from 2002 is relevant because he was one of the core planners of OWS. Again, see the link from @192.
I have no dog in that fight; I'm citing the goals of the people who planned and initiated OWS (see my first link, @192).
Graeber's article from 2002 is relevant because he was one of the core planners of OWS. Again, see the link from @192.
204
"marginalized voices"
How come people who claim their 'voices have been marginalized' always have the biggest fucking mouths and don't know when to shut up?
How come people who claim their 'voices have been marginalized' always have the biggest fucking mouths and don't know when to shut up?
205
@201
I actually agree with you on the expediency of twinkling.
@202
So, one thing I got from that is that you are at least somewhat aware that the media has that kind of power in constructing the narrative in the minds of your country-folk. Yet, what is being expressed by a lot of people in this thread is that it does not appear that that is a widely understood notion in the way a portion of people representing Occupy are making the choice to conduct themselves in the public eye.
The media doesn't even have to have a particular motive to not report the way you would like or with the utmost accuracy of some divine being. It's a human institution and is simply not perfect, and more to the point, who do you think protestors should be relying on more--> Their own agency in their conduct in the public eye, or acting out in the hope that every reporter is as seemingly well informed and nuanced as a Pulitzer Prize winner and will give them the benefit of the doubt?
In some ways when engaging the public it is like the old adage: if you have to explain the joke, then it's not funny.
I actually agree with you on the expediency of twinkling.
@202
So, one thing I got from that is that you are at least somewhat aware that the media has that kind of power in constructing the narrative in the minds of your country-folk. Yet, what is being expressed by a lot of people in this thread is that it does not appear that that is a widely understood notion in the way a portion of people representing Occupy are making the choice to conduct themselves in the public eye.
The media doesn't even have to have a particular motive to not report the way you would like or with the utmost accuracy of some divine being. It's a human institution and is simply not perfect, and more to the point, who do you think protestors should be relying on more--> Their own agency in their conduct in the public eye, or acting out in the hope that every reporter is as seemingly well informed and nuanced as a Pulitzer Prize winner and will give them the benefit of the doubt?
In some ways when engaging the public it is like the old adage: if you have to explain the joke, then it's not funny.
206
@204
If you pay close attention, I think you'll find that those "big fucking mouths" that "don't know when to shut up" are generally not those of "marginalized voices", but rather those of people taking it upon themselves to speak on behalf of marginalized voices.
If you pay close attention, I think you'll find that those "big fucking mouths" that "don't know when to shut up" are generally not those of "marginalized voices", but rather those of people taking it upon themselves to speak on behalf of marginalized voices.
208
@205
I don't understand your question.
All I'm interested in here is learning and explaining the history and purpose of the tools, structure, and ideology of the planners and core organizers of OWS.
I've been at it for a while now; have a look at my comment history if that kind of thing doesn't bore you to tears.
I don't understand your question.
All I'm interested in here is learning and explaining the history and purpose of the tools, structure, and ideology of the planners and core organizers of OWS.
I've been at it for a while now; have a look at my comment history if that kind of thing doesn't bore you to tears.
209
When you're sleep deprived, cold and sick and fighting police brutality and harassment, it's hard to stay focused and clear minded.
210
I'm a very far-left person who has laid his body on the line for his beliefs at civil disobedience-oriented protests (and incurred police abuse as a result).
I like inclusive social movements. These OS folks are not remotely inclusive--because shouting supporters down is never, ever inclusive.
It's going to take a huge, huge movement to affect real social change, but no one would ever want to work with people who want to constantly engage in a massive shouting match.
A brilliant but evil right-wing political consultant, Frank Luntz, says "it's not what you say, it's what they hear!" He's behind a lot of the right-wing's recent success. This wing of the OS movement acts like children, and does not accept the super-obvious fact of humanity that people are different and sometimes you have to say things differently to different groups. Shouting the same loud aggressive message at everyone is guaranteed to fail.
I've been participating in the Occupy movement from the sidelines, not wanting to directly engage with people like this. There are too many of them, and it would take all my time to even have a chance at neutralizing them. Occasionally I donate food & equipment to my friends in the movement (who are not among the aggressively dumb in the movement), but I have no interest in showing up.
Instead I choose to engage in something that I feel has a far greater chance of social good: I work really, really hard; donate a large chunk of my earnings to shelters and food pantries; and I work at food pantries on the weekend.
I know the movement has helped shift the national conversation from deficits to jobs, but the failure of it to engage with the 99% on their diverse terms rather than act as an anarchic monolith (this does exist!) will doom it very soon.
More...
I like inclusive social movements. These OS folks are not remotely inclusive--because shouting supporters down is never, ever inclusive.
It's going to take a huge, huge movement to affect real social change, but no one would ever want to work with people who want to constantly engage in a massive shouting match.
A brilliant but evil right-wing political consultant, Frank Luntz, says "it's not what you say, it's what they hear!" He's behind a lot of the right-wing's recent success. This wing of the OS movement acts like children, and does not accept the super-obvious fact of humanity that people are different and sometimes you have to say things differently to different groups. Shouting the same loud aggressive message at everyone is guaranteed to fail.
I've been participating in the Occupy movement from the sidelines, not wanting to directly engage with people like this. There are too many of them, and it would take all my time to even have a chance at neutralizing them. Occasionally I donate food & equipment to my friends in the movement (who are not among the aggressively dumb in the movement), but I have no interest in showing up.
Instead I choose to engage in something that I feel has a far greater chance of social good: I work really, really hard; donate a large chunk of my earnings to shelters and food pantries; and I work at food pantries on the weekend.
I know the movement has helped shift the national conversation from deficits to jobs, but the failure of it to engage with the 99% on their diverse terms rather than act as an anarchic monolith (this does exist!) will doom it very soon.
211
These people are extreme narcissists. All political issues are secondary to their endless craving for attention.
212
"When you're sleep deprived, cold and sick and fighting police brutality and harassment, it's hard to stay focused and clear minded."
Or wipe your bottoms after shitting on a sidewalk in broad daylight, just yards away from a port-a-john as we see in this fine video:
youtu.be/Wl1ObUGAoHE
And exactly what police brutality are you talking about?
Or wipe your bottoms after shitting on a sidewalk in broad daylight, just yards away from a port-a-john as we see in this fine video:
youtu.be/Wl1ObUGAoHE
And exactly what police brutality are you talking about?
214
@196:
You are most certainly 100% wrong about that.
It is illegal to use amplification in New York without a permit.
NYPD Permit application here:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloads/p…
ACLU discussion of need for permit here:
http://www.nyclu.org/content/know-your-r…
to wit:
More...
Also, I could be wrong about this, but I don't think there has ever been a police ban on amplification in Zuccotti park.
You are most certainly 100% wrong about that.
It is illegal to use amplification in New York without a permit.
NYPD Permit application here:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloads/p…
ACLU discussion of need for permit here:
http://www.nyclu.org/content/know-your-r…
to wit:
If you want to use amplified sound in a public place, you must get a permit from the Police Department. ...City rules prohibit the use of amplified sound within 500 feet of a school, courthouse or church during hours of school, court or worship, or within 500 feet of a hospital or similar institution. In many instances, the permit may specify a decibel limit on the level of permissible sound. City rules also prohibit the use of amplified sound between 10 p.m. and 9 a.m. in nonresidential areas; in residential areas, amplified sound is not permitted between 8 p.m. or sunset, whichever is later, and 9 a.m. on weekdays and between 8 p.m. or sunset, whichever is later, and 10 a.m. on weekends.
Finally, if you intend to use amplified sound that requires electricity, you are not allowed to tap into public power (e.g. a light pole) unless you have made specific arrangements with the city to do so.
Here is video of an individual being arrested by NYPD for using a bullhorn:
http://youtu.be/pSM9p-fC-s4
And a news article citing his arrest for using a bullhorn without a permit:
http://www.metro.us/newyork/local/articl…
215
@208
I guess what I'm getting at is that any movement that chooses to not care about the importance of effective communication strategies in dealing with the public and press are simply not going to be majority movements. As much as every movement claims to represent the "majority", it's up to the majority and not activists to make that statement a reality.
I guess what I'm getting at is that any movement that chooses to not care about the importance of effective communication strategies in dealing with the public and press are simply not going to be majority movements. As much as every movement claims to represent the "majority", it's up to the majority and not activists to make that statement a reality.
216
@196
No, I am not "certainly 100% wrong" about that.
I believe Zuccotti Park is not, under that ordinance, a "public place." It is private property which has a 24-hour public-access zoning requirement.
No, I am not "certainly 100% wrong" about that.
I believe Zuccotti Park is not, under that ordinance, a "public place." It is private property which has a 24-hour public-access zoning requirement.
217
@216: You're splitting hairs. You can redefine the facts but all initial coverage cited this reason for the use of the People's Microphone.
218
@217
I do agree that that explanation was introduced shortly after the Occupation was initiated. I do not at all agree, however, that The People's Mic was introduced as a legal necessity. The organizers made no other concessions to legal niceties.
Much has been made of Zuccotti Park's legal status with regard to camping and/or tents; I fail to see why it should suddenly be regarded as "splitting hairs" when discussing amplification.
From the first days of the NYC occupation, PAs and bullhorns have been available, and sometimes used in addition to The People's Microphone.
Amplification is an easy explanation for The People's Mic, but it fails to explain the fact that from the September 17 start of the protests (and even before, in planning assemblies) the People's Mic has been consistently used even when PA Systems or bullhorns are available, or when no amplification is needed at all (usually indoors, in smaller rooms or in spaces acoustically designed for unamplified performance or speech).
It's a comfortable explanation, and it definitely helps relieve the weirdness when the thing is first experienced, but the story just doesn't hold up when you look into the origins of OWS.
I do agree that that explanation was introduced shortly after the Occupation was initiated. I do not at all agree, however, that The People's Mic was introduced as a legal necessity. The organizers made no other concessions to legal niceties.
Much has been made of Zuccotti Park's legal status with regard to camping and/or tents; I fail to see why it should suddenly be regarded as "splitting hairs" when discussing amplification.
From the first days of the NYC occupation, PAs and bullhorns have been available, and sometimes used in addition to The People's Microphone.
Amplification is an easy explanation for The People's Mic, but it fails to explain the fact that from the September 17 start of the protests (and even before, in planning assemblies) the People's Mic has been consistently used even when PA Systems or bullhorns are available, or when no amplification is needed at all (usually indoors, in smaller rooms or in spaces acoustically designed for unamplified performance or speech).
It's a comfortable explanation, and it definitely helps relieve the weirdness when the thing is first experienced, but the story just doesn't hold up when you look into the origins of OWS.
219
Here's my take on it...If the occupy movement is to survive, then we who support it must go and be more a part of it. (and I for one have not spent nearly enough time there.) We cannot afford to sit on the outside saying "they're doing wrong". We who have experience and motivation must use that and bring it to the table, rather than saying "they're pissing me off" If we truly believe "we are the 99%" then we MUST work on the INSIDE of the movement rather than criticize it from the outside. This is not "their" problem, it's OUR problem.
220
Forget about the People's Mic, how about the People's Potty? New video shows Occupy Seattle's stunning expansion to rescue latrines of color from gentrification; this sidewalk is TOTALLY OCCUPIED! Eat that 1%!
youtu.be/Wl1ObUGAoHE
youtu.be/Wl1ObUGAoHE
222
@205
I was just trying to point out that that what happened at Town Hall was a metaphor for what's wrong with our "democracy". I saw it as the Occupy people trying to do a show and tell. It was dispiriting to see how it degenerated into an us and them, our way or the highway.
I was just trying to point out that that what happened at Town Hall was a metaphor for what's wrong with our "democracy". I saw it as the Occupy people trying to do a show and tell. It was dispiriting to see how it degenerated into an us and them, our way or the highway.
223
The occupy movement is a diverse crowd and the soldiers on the ground are for sure suffering from various forms of stress, not only brought on by the occupation, but by the society that did not have the proper outreach to support and civilize these individuals. That said, If you don't want to participate on the ground, then join the forum http://forum.occupyseattle.org/
Surely the people on the ground need to rethink their strategy, but honestly, I'm tired of representatives walking around like their shit doesn't stink. Pretending to be something you are not might garner initial support, but to me that is just a con. If we have to con our way to justice and equality, I truly believe things will degrade once people get tired of the charade.
We may lose the current ground battle, but the dialogue has started, and the grievances have been clearly identified, and these grievances have resonated with society in a way that can not be undone, can never be lost. Each individual will choose their own way of supporting what they believe in, and the occupy movement will continue to find ways to facilitate a dialogue, and perhaps evolve our nation into a more perfect union.
Surely the people on the ground need to rethink their strategy, but honestly, I'm tired of representatives walking around like their shit doesn't stink. Pretending to be something you are not might garner initial support, but to me that is just a con. If we have to con our way to justice and equality, I truly believe things will degrade once people get tired of the charade.
We may lose the current ground battle, but the dialogue has started, and the grievances have been clearly identified, and these grievances have resonated with society in a way that can not be undone, can never be lost. Each individual will choose their own way of supporting what they believe in, and the occupy movement will continue to find ways to facilitate a dialogue, and perhaps evolve our nation into a more perfect union.
224
We demand that people respect our right to be heard. Come on Occupy, we do demand this let us lead by example and do the same for them. Lets face it, the City Council chambers are not the G.A., they are not the street corners, and they are not the place to get in to a shouting contest. We need to move forward which means DIALOGUE that may not be accurately communicated through the "Peoples Mic." Seriously, what was the point of a Mic check here? What did you accomplish?
226
Word of advice to the OWS movement: You have a golden opportunity. Declare victory now, immediately, and then stop the occupying and go on to stage two of GA meetings and Meetup planning sessions. If you don't declare victory and leave, your chaos, hypocrisy, and mayhem are about to bring a humiliating and public defeat while THE WHOLE WORLD IS WATCHING. You will do more to make the progressive movement unpalatable to the masses than anything republicans could do. They are relishing every day of this occupy movement, as a serious blunder by the progressive-minded portion of the populace. As they say, "don't fight a man that's determined to commit suicide."
#138 "the republicans have succeeded in creating an underclass of woefully undeveloped, brutish minds." Last I checked, any serious school reform is consistently thwarted by the powerful teachers union, one of the most dedicated contributors to democrats.
#147 "Everyone calling for arrest: I hope someday you are beaten down and pepper sprayed for your opinions" - I haven't seen anyone beaten for their opinion at any of the protests. Well, I take that back. I've seen several people physically attacked by OWS protesters when they went to the park with a dissenting opinion. I've seen prosters arrested for failing to clear parks after multiple notices by the city, and those same people preparing the night before to intentionally defy the law so they would be arrested. Then, the whole time the cops are doing what the protesters both prepared for, and claim as an intentional part of the movement (defying law), the crowd is screaming at the cops like they are evil incarnate. Even the cops being as careful and methodical as possible, are being treated like the scum of the world by people that went their to defy the law in the first place.
#186 "They (OWS) are the first ones to actually get off their couches and try to affect change since the 1960s" - Well, except those rascally teafolk, you mean. You know, the run of the mill working stiffs upset about govt corruption, fiscal irresponsibility, and oppressive legislation. They didn't have some long-nurtured ideologies they were hoping to promote, no new world order, no desire to bring back the guillotine and destroy the worlds economic system. They just wanted to fix the broken parts, and got off their couches to do so. The only difference is, they were focused on results, not enjoying the spirit of protesting.
More...
#138 "the republicans have succeeded in creating an underclass of woefully undeveloped, brutish minds." Last I checked, any serious school reform is consistently thwarted by the powerful teachers union, one of the most dedicated contributors to democrats.
#147 "Everyone calling for arrest: I hope someday you are beaten down and pepper sprayed for your opinions" - I haven't seen anyone beaten for their opinion at any of the protests. Well, I take that back. I've seen several people physically attacked by OWS protesters when they went to the park with a dissenting opinion. I've seen prosters arrested for failing to clear parks after multiple notices by the city, and those same people preparing the night before to intentionally defy the law so they would be arrested. Then, the whole time the cops are doing what the protesters both prepared for, and claim as an intentional part of the movement (defying law), the crowd is screaming at the cops like they are evil incarnate. Even the cops being as careful and methodical as possible, are being treated like the scum of the world by people that went their to defy the law in the first place.
#186 "They (OWS) are the first ones to actually get off their couches and try to affect change since the 1960s" - Well, except those rascally teafolk, you mean. You know, the run of the mill working stiffs upset about govt corruption, fiscal irresponsibility, and oppressive legislation. They didn't have some long-nurtured ideologies they were hoping to promote, no new world order, no desire to bring back the guillotine and destroy the worlds economic system. They just wanted to fix the broken parts, and got off their couches to do so. The only difference is, they were focused on results, not enjoying the spirit of protesting.
227
This incident is a few week's dated, but I hadn't seen this camera before. yeah, there was violence, destruction, and many other protesters trying to prevent it. As one of those 'peace' guys starts to get pounded and stomped by the black bloc, you hear the cameraman or his assistant hurriedly saying "don't film it, don't film it", and it shuts off.
http://www.breitbart.tv/occupyoakland-va…
It's funny how easy it is for anyone, any movement, to slip so quickly into a biased projection, a dishonest accounting of itself. All the same things the MSM is blamed for, and you can see and hear such talk every day on the globalrev livestreams among the protesters. They haven't even formed any govt yet, and already they feel comfortable at spin.
This incident is a few week's dated, but I hadn't seen this camera before. yeah, there was violence, destruction, and many other protesters trying to prevent it. As one of those 'peace' guys starts to get pounded and stomped by the black bloc, you hear the cameraman or his assistant hurriedly saying "don't film it, don't film it", and it shuts off.
http://www.breitbart.tv/occupyoakland-va…
It's funny how easy it is for anyone, any movement, to slip so quickly into a biased projection, a dishonest accounting of itself. All the same things the MSM is blamed for, and you can see and hear such talk every day on the globalrev livestreams among the protesters. They haven't even formed any govt yet, and already they feel comfortable at spin.
228
And the critics of OWS? What where they doing the day before people occupied Wall Street, et al? Why goodness, they were practicing keyboard activism from the comfort of their [heated] cozy abodes.
For Christ's sake! Perfection does not, does not, does not exist. OWS is imperfect. So what? Such is humankind. Why is our side of the class war expected to do everything right 100% of the time, while the 1% gets a pass even though it never does anything moral and just?
Go on ya' sheep. Keep giving credence to Orwell's fiction:
"For if leisure and security were enjoyed by all alike, the great mass of human beings who are normally stupefied by poverty would become literate and would learn to think for themselves; and when once they had done this, they would sooner or later realise that the privileged minority had no function, and they would sweep it away. In the long run, a hierarchical society was only possible on a basis of poverty and ignorance. ... Ignorance is Strength" .
Support OWS, however "imperfect" it may be...because it beats whatever crap the 1% is peddaling 100% of the time!
For Christ's sake! Perfection does not, does not, does not exist. OWS is imperfect. So what? Such is humankind. Why is our side of the class war expected to do everything right 100% of the time, while the 1% gets a pass even though it never does anything moral and just?
Go on ya' sheep. Keep giving credence to Orwell's fiction:
"For if leisure and security were enjoyed by all alike, the great mass of human beings who are normally stupefied by poverty would become literate and would learn to think for themselves; and when once they had done this, they would sooner or later realise that the privileged minority had no function, and they would sweep it away. In the long run, a hierarchical society was only possible on a basis of poverty and ignorance. ... Ignorance is Strength" .
Support OWS, however "imperfect" it may be...because it beats whatever crap the 1% is peddaling 100% of the time!
229
228 - Let's see, you just called people sheep. You just stated that the 1% has never done anything moral and just (Really? Never?).
I don't demand perfection, but that attitude is not going to change hearts and minds, much like the event that was described in this post by Dom. If you can't see that (or you can and don't care) then OWS deserves to collapse under the weight of its own hubris.
I don't demand perfection, but that attitude is not going to change hearts and minds, much like the event that was described in this post by Dom. If you can't see that (or you can and don't care) then OWS deserves to collapse under the weight of its own hubris.
230
@226 - How successful was the tea party by that criteria? They got Republicans elected and saw oppressive govt in the form of abortion restriction, prayer rallies, defense of DOMA, and union busting. They got "beating corruption" by the attempt to undo financial reform legislation and attempts to socialize the blame for the crisis. Thats considered success? I guess it is if your ultimate goal is just to elect conservative Republicans...
231
MONTY PYTHON couldn't have written this any better. The interrupters state "TIME IS PRECIOUS" and then insist we put everything on hold and take a vote for a method of communication that takes twice as long. Maybe they should follow their own advice and think three times before they speak.
I was sitting in back. It was hard to hear the people's mic back there - the electric mic worked much better in that setting. We were among friends and supporters. For goodness sakes - can't we agree to use an actual microphone when we're invited to do so?
One great suggestion that was made by a woman who got to the mic - "Why don't people twinkle instead of applauding? It's hard to hear when speakers get interrupted with applause." GREAT IDEA. That's easily learned by osmosis - little or no discussion needed.
I was sitting in back. It was hard to hear the people's mic back there - the electric mic worked much better in that setting. We were among friends and supporters. For goodness sakes - can't we agree to use an actual microphone when we're invited to do so?
One great suggestion that was made by a woman who got to the mic - "Why don't people twinkle instead of applauding? It's hard to hear when speakers get interrupted with applause." GREAT IDEA. That's easily learned by osmosis - little or no discussion needed.
232
So it sounds like what we're winding up with is the 1% fucking up society, another 1% who wants to burn society to the ground, and then the 98% who are losing track of which ones they should be watching more closely for their own safety.
233
"Why legitimize the amplification law when the whole point is to delegitimize authority?"
Funny, I thought the point was societal reform of our flawed economic system to enact change that would benefit the 99%. Not to undo or challenge "authority" in and of itself.
But now that Occupy Seattle (as reported today) is banning people that dared to suggest Occupy run candidates in 2012 and 2013... the whole thing has gone pointless and has been ruined by the stupid minority.
Funny, I thought the point was societal reform of our flawed economic system to enact change that would benefit the 99%. Not to undo or challenge "authority" in and of itself.
But now that Occupy Seattle (as reported today) is banning people that dared to suggest Occupy run candidates in 2012 and 2013... the whole thing has gone pointless and has been ruined by the stupid minority.
234
I attended the Town Hall meeting, and I very much disagree with Dominic Holden's characterization of the event.
I agree with commenters #37, 43, 62, 186, and 192.
And I am one of the members of the audience who had never attended an Occupy Seattle protest or a General Assembly before.
I watched Occupy Seattle in fact occupy Town Hall, state their requests,
demand—yes, demand—that they be given the time needed for their request to be
fully considered, and politely, respectfully, and without fuss return to their
seats when the majority of the audience requested to return to the panel
format.
Commenter #62 said:
The problem was Nick Licata's frustrated "moderation" of the GA-style process.
I agree. The most illuminating part of the evening was coming to understand that (a) process is important, and (b) a new process makes people who are comfortable with the current terms of engagement uncomfortable. And there's a point here: the "current terms of engagement" between people, politicians, and corporations have led us to the crisis we're experiencing.
I wish that Dominic had included in his post some discussion of the hostility and patronization toward Occupy Seattle expressed by Frank Greer and Nick Licata as soon as things didn't go precisely as planned. I have sympathy for them. It had to be very uncomfortable. But a lot of the time "wasted" was due to Licata's obvious frustration and inability to engage respectfully from the beginning.
I will also say that after Occupy Seattle's demonstration of their commitment to a consensus-based democratic process, I found the questions Licata posed to the panel to be dry and beside the point. If the panel had been run as originally intended for the entire evening, instead of for only the second half of the evening, I would not have learned
nearly so much.
More...
I agree with commenters #37, 43, 62, 186, and 192.
And I am one of the members of the audience who had never attended an Occupy Seattle protest or a General Assembly before.
I watched Occupy Seattle in fact occupy Town Hall, state their requests,
demand—yes, demand—that they be given the time needed for their request to be
fully considered, and politely, respectfully, and without fuss return to their
seats when the majority of the audience requested to return to the panel
format.
Commenter #62 said:
The problem was Nick Licata's frustrated "moderation" of the GA-style process.
I agree. The most illuminating part of the evening was coming to understand that (a) process is important, and (b) a new process makes people who are comfortable with the current terms of engagement uncomfortable. And there's a point here: the "current terms of engagement" between people, politicians, and corporations have led us to the crisis we're experiencing.
I wish that Dominic had included in his post some discussion of the hostility and patronization toward Occupy Seattle expressed by Frank Greer and Nick Licata as soon as things didn't go precisely as planned. I have sympathy for them. It had to be very uncomfortable. But a lot of the time "wasted" was due to Licata's obvious frustration and inability to engage respectfully from the beginning.
I will also say that after Occupy Seattle's demonstration of their commitment to a consensus-based democratic process, I found the questions Licata posed to the panel to be dry and beside the point. If the panel had been run as originally intended for the entire evening, instead of for only the second half of the evening, I would not have learned
nearly so much.
235
I attended the Town Hall meeting, and I very much disagree with Dominic Holden's characterization of the event.
I agree with commenters #37, 43, 62, 186, and 192.
And I am one of the members of the audience who had never attended an Occupy Seattle protest or a General Assembly before.
I watched Occupy Seattle in fact occupy Town Hall, state their requests,
demand—yes, demand—that they be given the time needed for their request to be
fully considered, and politely, respectfully, and without fuss return to their
seats when the majority of the audience requested to return to the panel
format.
Commenter #62 said:
The problem was Nick Licata's frustrated "moderation" of the GA-style process.
I agree. The most illuminating part of the evening was coming to understand that (a) process is important, and (b) a new process makes people who are comfortable with the current terms of engagement uncomfortable. And there's a point here: the "current terms of engagement" between people, politicians, and corporations have led us to the crisis we're experiencing.
I wish that Dominic had included in his post some discussion of the hostility and patronization toward Occupy Seattle expressed by Frank Greer and Nick Licata as soon as things didn't go precisely as planned. I have sympathy for them. It had to be very uncomfortable. But a lot of the time "wasted" was due to Licata's obvious frustration and inability to engage respectfully from the beginning.
I will also say that after Occupy Seattle's demonstration of their commitment to a consensus-based democratic process, I found the questions Licata posed to the panel to be dry and beside the point. If the panel had been run as originally intended for the entire evening, instead of for only the second half of the evening, I would not have learned
nearly so much.
More...
I agree with commenters #37, 43, 62, 186, and 192.
And I am one of the members of the audience who had never attended an Occupy Seattle protest or a General Assembly before.
I watched Occupy Seattle in fact occupy Town Hall, state their requests,
demand—yes, demand—that they be given the time needed for their request to be
fully considered, and politely, respectfully, and without fuss return to their
seats when the majority of the audience requested to return to the panel
format.
Commenter #62 said:
The problem was Nick Licata's frustrated "moderation" of the GA-style process.
I agree. The most illuminating part of the evening was coming to understand that (a) process is important, and (b) a new process makes people who are comfortable with the current terms of engagement uncomfortable. And there's a point here: the "current terms of engagement" between people, politicians, and corporations have led us to the crisis we're experiencing.
I wish that Dominic had included in his post some discussion of the hostility and patronization toward Occupy Seattle expressed by Frank Greer and Nick Licata as soon as things didn't go precisely as planned. I have sympathy for them. It had to be very uncomfortable. But a lot of the time "wasted" was due to Licata's obvious frustration and inability to engage respectfully from the beginning.
I will also say that after Occupy Seattle's demonstration of their commitment to a consensus-based democratic process, I found the questions Licata posed to the panel to be dry and beside the point. If the panel had been run as originally intended for the entire evening, instead of for only the second half of the evening, I would not have learned
nearly so much.
236
#231
Democracy, both cumbersome and time-consuming, is not a waste of time. As I said before, it remains to be seen which process would ultimately take less time. For instance, the woman who came to the (Business as Usual) mic to speak, started out so gracefully by thanking the Occupiers for their work, clarifying her reason for wanting the BaU mic (her elderly mother had a hearing aid and couldn't understand the shouting), then digressed into a lengthy and repetitious digression on many things--mostly "off topic".
Did anyone go to the small GA the Occupiers had in the downstairs after the Town Hall event? It was pretty amazing--there was a good amount of reflecting on what had happened upstairs. And people had their say and felt heard. Anyone go to that?
Democracy, both cumbersome and time-consuming, is not a waste of time. As I said before, it remains to be seen which process would ultimately take less time. For instance, the woman who came to the (Business as Usual) mic to speak, started out so gracefully by thanking the Occupiers for their work, clarifying her reason for wanting the BaU mic (her elderly mother had a hearing aid and couldn't understand the shouting), then digressed into a lengthy and repetitious digression on many things--mostly "off topic".
Did anyone go to the small GA the Occupiers had in the downstairs after the Town Hall event? It was pretty amazing--there was a good amount of reflecting on what had happened upstairs. And people had their say and felt heard. Anyone go to that?
237
WHY ARE WE HERE?
Ask any two people involved with the Occupy Movement this question and you are most likely to get two different answers. What must be recognized when attempting to define the Occupy Movement and when seeking to identify its goals is that we are a movement composed of vastly varying perspectives. “We are the 99%,” but “the 99%” contains people with a mass of different grievances and potential solutions to the current state of the world. We have all come together in response to the same call to action, “Occupy Wall Street.” However, this call to action is only a common catalyst; we have been mobilized by the same target—Wall Street and the vast inequalities in material wealth and power represented by it. What this movement is about then, is creating new spaces for political activity and citizen engagement to take place. We declare the spaces of the occupations as places where an equality of voices may exist; the spaces of Occupation seek to build democracy from the ground up.
Right now, the process of democracy is the most fundamental aspect of this movement and must not be undermined by a sense of urgency for products or other results; because our primary product is democracy itself and we have already begun to take possession of it through the creation of these spaces. Allow this to continue to unfold.
In broader society, outside of the spaces of the Occupations, many people have their attention captured and their imagination dominated by a story being told. This story is continuing to be told in a way that supports those who are telling it and which also controls those who are uncritically listening to it. This story is being told by all of the mainstream media corporations, elected officials, and their mutual friends in the major banks and other transnational corporations. The story says that some people hold power and that the rest of us need to appeal to them or attempt to get more of ‘our own’ within their ranks in order to affect change. This is not actually the case.
What we are realizing with the Occupy Movement is that the power is within all of us—all we need to do is realize this and cease to believe the stories telling us otherwise while shifting our focus to building a better world. The dominant narrative of the world now, the story being told by “the 1%,’ is that only one possible world exists and the majority of people have no power to create it. It is the job of the Occupy Movement to subvert this message and liberate our self from that horror story. All of the laws empowering corporate interests, waging war on the planet and its peoples, torturing people, and putting masses of people in prisons in order to protect the interests of “the 1%,” and even the people who feel trapped into playing their roles within this grand story—the inflexibility of all this goes away once we begin to act as beings capable of telling our own stories. Act as though the world is not doomed to be as it is.
For this movement to continue to gain momentum, we need more people to wake up from the matrix created by the mainstream media and all of its mutually reinforcing storytellers; stop believing that we are powerless to create a better world and begin working with others to create a world in which many worlds fit—a world in which each and every being has agency that is recognized and valued by everyone else. Wake up!
More...
Ask any two people involved with the Occupy Movement this question and you are most likely to get two different answers. What must be recognized when attempting to define the Occupy Movement and when seeking to identify its goals is that we are a movement composed of vastly varying perspectives. “We are the 99%,” but “the 99%” contains people with a mass of different grievances and potential solutions to the current state of the world. We have all come together in response to the same call to action, “Occupy Wall Street.” However, this call to action is only a common catalyst; we have been mobilized by the same target—Wall Street and the vast inequalities in material wealth and power represented by it. What this movement is about then, is creating new spaces for political activity and citizen engagement to take place. We declare the spaces of the occupations as places where an equality of voices may exist; the spaces of Occupation seek to build democracy from the ground up.
Right now, the process of democracy is the most fundamental aspect of this movement and must not be undermined by a sense of urgency for products or other results; because our primary product is democracy itself and we have already begun to take possession of it through the creation of these spaces. Allow this to continue to unfold.
In broader society, outside of the spaces of the Occupations, many people have their attention captured and their imagination dominated by a story being told. This story is continuing to be told in a way that supports those who are telling it and which also controls those who are uncritically listening to it. This story is being told by all of the mainstream media corporations, elected officials, and their mutual friends in the major banks and other transnational corporations. The story says that some people hold power and that the rest of us need to appeal to them or attempt to get more of ‘our own’ within their ranks in order to affect change. This is not actually the case.
What we are realizing with the Occupy Movement is that the power is within all of us—all we need to do is realize this and cease to believe the stories telling us otherwise while shifting our focus to building a better world. The dominant narrative of the world now, the story being told by “the 1%,’ is that only one possible world exists and the majority of people have no power to create it. It is the job of the Occupy Movement to subvert this message and liberate our self from that horror story. All of the laws empowering corporate interests, waging war on the planet and its peoples, torturing people, and putting masses of people in prisons in order to protect the interests of “the 1%,” and even the people who feel trapped into playing their roles within this grand story—the inflexibility of all this goes away once we begin to act as beings capable of telling our own stories. Act as though the world is not doomed to be as it is.
For this movement to continue to gain momentum, we need more people to wake up from the matrix created by the mainstream media and all of its mutually reinforcing storytellers; stop believing that we are powerless to create a better world and begin working with others to create a world in which many worlds fit—a world in which each and every being has agency that is recognized and valued by everyone else. Wake up!
238
WHY ARE WE HERE?
Ask any two people involved with the Occupy Movement this question and you are most likely to get two different answers. What must be recognized when attempting to define the Occupy Movement and when seeking to identify its goals is that we are a movement composed of vastly varying perspectives. “We are the 99%,” but “the 99%” contains people with a mass of different grievances and potential solutions to the current state of the world. We have all come together in response to the same call to action, “Occupy Wall Street.” However, this call to action is only a common catalyst; we have been mobilized by the same target—Wall Street and the vast inequalities in material wealth and power represented by it. What this movement is about then, is creating new spaces for political activity and citizen engagement to take place. We declare the spaces of the occupations as places where an equality of voices may exist; the spaces of Occupation seek to build democracy from the ground up.
Right now, the process of democracy is the most fundamental aspect of this movement and must not be undermined by a sense of urgency for products or other results; because our primary product is democracy itself and we have already begun to take possession of it through the creation of these spaces. Allow this to continue to unfold.
In broader society, outside of the spaces of the Occupations, many people have their attention captured and their imagination dominated by a story being told. This story is continuing to be told in a way that supports those who are telling it and which also controls those who are uncritically listening to it. This story is being told by all of the mainstream media corporations, elected officials, and their mutual friends in the major banks and other transnational corporations. The story says that some people hold power and that the rest of us need to appeal to them or attempt to get more of ‘our own’ within their ranks in order to affect change. This is not actually the case.
What we are realizing with the Occupy Movement is that the power is within all of us—all we need to do is realize this and cease to believe the stories telling us otherwise while shifting our focus to building a better world. The dominant narrative of the world now, the story being told by “the 1%,’ is that only one possible world exists and the majority of people have no power to create it. It is the job of the Occupy Movement to subvert this message and liberate our self from that horror story. All of the laws empowering corporate interests, waging war on the planet and its peoples, torturing people, and putting masses of people in prisons in order to protect the interests of “the 1%,” and even the people who feel trapped into playing their roles within this grand story—the inflexibility of all this goes away once we begin to act as beings capable of telling our own stories. Act as though the world is not doomed to be as it is.
For this movement to continue to gain momentum, we need more people to wake up from the matrix created by the mainstream media and all of its mutually reinforcing storytellers; stop believing that we are powerless to create a better world and begin working with others to create a world in which many worlds fit—a world in which each and every being has agency that is recognized and valued by everyone else. Wake up!
More...
Ask any two people involved with the Occupy Movement this question and you are most likely to get two different answers. What must be recognized when attempting to define the Occupy Movement and when seeking to identify its goals is that we are a movement composed of vastly varying perspectives. “We are the 99%,” but “the 99%” contains people with a mass of different grievances and potential solutions to the current state of the world. We have all come together in response to the same call to action, “Occupy Wall Street.” However, this call to action is only a common catalyst; we have been mobilized by the same target—Wall Street and the vast inequalities in material wealth and power represented by it. What this movement is about then, is creating new spaces for political activity and citizen engagement to take place. We declare the spaces of the occupations as places where an equality of voices may exist; the spaces of Occupation seek to build democracy from the ground up.
Right now, the process of democracy is the most fundamental aspect of this movement and must not be undermined by a sense of urgency for products or other results; because our primary product is democracy itself and we have already begun to take possession of it through the creation of these spaces. Allow this to continue to unfold.
In broader society, outside of the spaces of the Occupations, many people have their attention captured and their imagination dominated by a story being told. This story is continuing to be told in a way that supports those who are telling it and which also controls those who are uncritically listening to it. This story is being told by all of the mainstream media corporations, elected officials, and their mutual friends in the major banks and other transnational corporations. The story says that some people hold power and that the rest of us need to appeal to them or attempt to get more of ‘our own’ within their ranks in order to affect change. This is not actually the case.
What we are realizing with the Occupy Movement is that the power is within all of us—all we need to do is realize this and cease to believe the stories telling us otherwise while shifting our focus to building a better world. The dominant narrative of the world now, the story being told by “the 1%,’ is that only one possible world exists and the majority of people have no power to create it. It is the job of the Occupy Movement to subvert this message and liberate our self from that horror story. All of the laws empowering corporate interests, waging war on the planet and its peoples, torturing people, and putting masses of people in prisons in order to protect the interests of “the 1%,” and even the people who feel trapped into playing their roles within this grand story—the inflexibility of all this goes away once we begin to act as beings capable of telling our own stories. Act as though the world is not doomed to be as it is.
For this movement to continue to gain momentum, we need more people to wake up from the matrix created by the mainstream media and all of its mutually reinforcing storytellers; stop believing that we are powerless to create a better world and begin working with others to create a world in which many worlds fit—a world in which each and every being has agency that is recognized and valued by everyone else. Wake up!
239
So, at the GA last night a few occupiers claimed the Stranger was in fact "lying", even a call to march to the Stranger, and Dominic was right there (red coat right?) seemingly ready to field the criticism. However, no one seemed to be able to articulate, or confront him directly when he was pointed out to them, what exactly he was lying about.
A primary issue that night: As to the camp being occupied by many as a social safety-net (addict rehabilitation and de-facto food bank), it's my hope people really do take account of Alvina's idea to take a cue from Portland and San Francisco to be more active in the day to day activities of Occupy folks. Things like, have a march a day, group activities that get people moving and interacting with each other beyond work groups that meet in the middle of the day. Also, I felt community clean-up was a great idea to engender some good will and give back to the community OS is occupying.
By the way, if you haven't gone to a GA you should, if only so you can form your own opinion of Occupy Seattle. However, please be aware that there will be some who seem to only seek to express wordy pronouncements of vaguely articulated revolutionary/utopian aims over actionable specifics. We all live in a pluralistic society that has the Internet (infodemics and pseudo-information abounds in echo chambers) and there isn't really a social safety-net in America. For some this movement is about expressing a cathartic rage, which optimistically one would hope is able to be channeled constructively.
My own personal hope remains that the movement actually stays focused first and foremost in forming a broad and effective counter force to the immense concentration of wealth and power that has impaired the effective functioning of the government of the United States of America.
More...
A primary issue that night: As to the camp being occupied by many as a social safety-net (addict rehabilitation and de-facto food bank), it's my hope people really do take account of Alvina's idea to take a cue from Portland and San Francisco to be more active in the day to day activities of Occupy folks. Things like, have a march a day, group activities that get people moving and interacting with each other beyond work groups that meet in the middle of the day. Also, I felt community clean-up was a great idea to engender some good will and give back to the community OS is occupying.
By the way, if you haven't gone to a GA you should, if only so you can form your own opinion of Occupy Seattle. However, please be aware that there will be some who seem to only seek to express wordy pronouncements of vaguely articulated revolutionary/utopian aims over actionable specifics. We all live in a pluralistic society that has the Internet (infodemics and pseudo-information abounds in echo chambers) and there isn't really a social safety-net in America. For some this movement is about expressing a cathartic rage, which optimistically one would hope is able to be channeled constructively.
My own personal hope remains that the movement actually stays focused first and foremost in forming a broad and effective counter force to the immense concentration of wealth and power that has impaired the effective functioning of the government of the United States of America.
240
I thought that night was a great success. Feelings get hurt every day. Everyone who wishes to join OWS-OS is going to have to feel some of the frustration that we all felt that night. In the end everyone I saw was smiling though which means that everyone learned to retract feelings of hurt when the conversations are heated.
241
Why are people criticizing this story for talking about body odor? How did liberalism or socialism come to mean not bathing? Why is that okay?
This movement started out with a relentless focus on corporate corruption. There have been cover stories on national magazines about wealth disparity—something I've never seen before. The folks in the middle were really starting to hear the message, and liked it. Even the corporate media were forced to pay grudging attention.
Then, like always, people with "enough free time and emotional problems" to devote to the cause took over. And suddenly we're not talking about a crypto-fascist oligarchy, we're whining because the cops won't let us camp in the park. Go home, take a shower, and come back when you get over your own narcissist victimology and go after the real enemy.
This movement started out with a relentless focus on corporate corruption. There have been cover stories on national magazines about wealth disparity—something I've never seen before. The folks in the middle were really starting to hear the message, and liked it. Even the corporate media were forced to pay grudging attention.
Then, like always, people with "enough free time and emotional problems" to devote to the cause took over. And suddenly we're not talking about a crypto-fascist oligarchy, we're whining because the cops won't let us camp in the park. Go home, take a shower, and come back when you get over your own narcissist victimology and go after the real enemy.
242
#241:
Why are people criticizing this story for talking about body odor?
Because it's petty.
#241:
Go home, take a shower, and come back when you get over your own narcissist victimology and go after the real enemy.
Sadly, some of these people don't have homes to go to for showering. Yes, this movement has been a magnet to the disenfranchised. Some of them even have BO. Horrors!
#241:
Why are people criticizing this story for talking about body odor?
Because it's petty.
#241:
Go home, take a shower, and come back when you get over your own narcissist victimology and go after the real enemy.
Sadly, some of these people don't have homes to go to for showering. Yes, this movement has been a magnet to the disenfranchised. Some of them even have BO. Horrors!
243
Are we certain these were legitimate Occupiers who turned everyone off? wouldn't that be a perfect tactic by infiltrators who only mean harm?
244
Do we know these were authentic activists? It sounds like perfect tactic of infiltrators who mean harm.
245
I had the misfortune of sharing the Crescent Lounge with the Occupy Seattle folks. They mic checked the karaoke at one point. I call this "soft on the concepts."
246
During opening remarks, JM Wong from Occupy Seattle declared that she wanted “no leadership from the Democratic Party or union bureaucrats. Nonprofits are trying to co-opt us."
She is right, that is what they are trying to do. If you don't believe in war or bank bail outs you won't be voting for Obama. SEIU has come out in support of him. So fuck union bureaucrats!
She is right, that is what they are trying to do. If you don't believe in war or bank bail outs you won't be voting for Obama. SEIU has come out in support of him. So fuck union bureaucrats!
247
OWS members and "leaders" who "stand strong" against "co-option" by union "bureaucrats" are showing the world that they don't have any real solutions, nor any means to get any of their mythical solutions enacted. I am saddened by this story, but not shocked. OWS is a free-for-all, and until they show interest in finding and working with allies, they will only represent 1% of the activist community, instead of the 99% of us who want to get something accomplished.
And before you start your damn flames, I AGREE with the message of OWS and I SUPPORT the goals of OWS. I just wish they would articulate them and start working on a plan to make them happen instead of just shouting at the rooftops. Be effective, or don't bother.
And before you start your damn flames, I AGREE with the message of OWS and I SUPPORT the goals of OWS. I just wish they would articulate them and start working on a plan to make them happen instead of just shouting at the rooftops. Be effective, or don't bother.
248
#247 - this is not a flame, but it is a different take.
We should recall that the initial protests, Occupy Wall Street, had a very specific focus as expressed in their name - Wall Street, the emblem of a financial system that since Bush's administration exorbitantly enriches the few at the expense of the many and produces nothing substantive but precisely that movement of money.
In these times when there is such widespread economic distress accompanied by social distress that affects millions, not every "occupier" will share the same insights.
Different strokes for different folks.
Not every protest must contain within itself the solution to the problem. We should appreciate these efforts to resist and call attention to economic oppression.
Existing organizations, including unions and progressive political parties, rather than trying to prescribe for OWS the path they should choose, can adapt themselves to this new element of protest against the enemies of democracy and use whatever organizing skills they may have to focus their own groups on the economic issues that gave birth to the protests.
We should recall that the initial protests, Occupy Wall Street, had a very specific focus as expressed in their name - Wall Street, the emblem of a financial system that since Bush's administration exorbitantly enriches the few at the expense of the many and produces nothing substantive but precisely that movement of money.
In these times when there is such widespread economic distress accompanied by social distress that affects millions, not every "occupier" will share the same insights.
Different strokes for different folks.
Not every protest must contain within itself the solution to the problem. We should appreciate these efforts to resist and call attention to economic oppression.
Existing organizations, including unions and progressive political parties, rather than trying to prescribe for OWS the path they should choose, can adapt themselves to this new element of protest against the enemies of democracy and use whatever organizing skills they may have to focus their own groups on the economic issues that gave birth to the protests.
249
#248, thank you for the wonderfully positive response.
I have been calling from the very beginning that the OWS movement should be the ones to coopt the Democratic Party and work to replace those elected officials who are not acting in the interest of the 99%. As a leader in the local Democratic Party, I have NO INTEREST in taking our message where it is not welcome. But our doors have been open, and everyone is welcome to bring their views and energy into our processes to help us make change. We're not coopting anyone. WE WANT TO BE COOPTED!
I have been calling from the very beginning that the OWS movement should be the ones to coopt the Democratic Party and work to replace those elected officials who are not acting in the interest of the 99%. As a leader in the local Democratic Party, I have NO INTEREST in taking our message where it is not welcome. But our doors have been open, and everyone is welcome to bring their views and energy into our processes to help us make change. We're not coopting anyone. WE WANT TO BE COOPTED!
250
Hey, check out 32 minute documentary on OWS. Very honest depiction of the protesters as oppose to what is being said in the mainstream media. Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rC7cDBtMv…
251
Hey, check out 32 minute documentary on OWS. Very honest depiction of the protesters as oppose to what is being said in the mainstream media. Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rC7cDBtMv…
252
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