Slog
News & ArtsThursday, November 3, 2011
LGBTQITSLFA "A Republican License to Bully"
Posted by Dan Savage on Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 9:35 AM
A Democratic state senator in the Michigan tears into her Republican colleagues after they added language to an anti-bullying bill that makes it legal for students, parents, teachers, and administrators to bully LGBT kids in Michigan's schools—so long as the bigots doing the bullying remember to cite "moral" reasons (thanks to Slog tipper Lindsey):
So screaming "GOD HATES FAGS!" in the faces of gay kids doesn't count as bullying. The father of the kid the law was named for has condemned it and the Michigan GOPers who turned it into a license to bully:
"Matt's Safe School Law" passed 26-11 with all Democrats voting against it. The bill is named for Matt Eppling, an East Lansing 14-year-old who committed suicide after being bullied by classmates in 2002. The law includes a section noting it doesn't abridge First Amendment free speech rights or prohibit expression of religious or moral viewpoints—a provision Democrats fear could be used to justify harassment of gay, lesbian or transgender students. "I am ashamed that this could be Michigan's bill on anti-bullying when in fact it is a 'bullying is OK in Michigan law,'" [wrote] Kevin Eppling, Matt's father, whose letter was read by Sen. Glenn Anderson during Wednesday's session.
6
Don't those Republigans know in the Qunited States of Gaymerica you don't have the right to believe homosexual behavior is not peachy keen?
7
Technically, the First Amendment is not a license to ANY speech. Speech that infringes upon the rights of others, such as threats, are not covered. A case could easily be made that bullying is a form of threats and therefore not protected. The problem, of course, is getting the current Supreme Court to impartially uphold the Constitution. (The real Constitution, that is, not the one that says whatever the Hell they think the founders meant. My bet is that 5/9 think that the founders must have hated fags. Perhaps Rutgers students and alumni could file an amius curie on behalf of the University's namesake?)
9
Youse.....
Gretchen doesn't look half bad for a Democrap.
Usually the females of the species are frighteningly buttugly....
Gretchen doesn't look half bad for a Democrap.
Usually the females of the species are frighteningly buttugly....
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Via JMG:
UPDATE: Readers suggest sending emails of gratitude to Sen. Whitmer: sengwhitmer@senate.michigan.gov
UPDATE: Readers suggest sending emails of gratitude to Sen. Whitmer: sengwhitmer@senate.michigan.gov
11
I want to hug that woman. She was on the brink of tears and I completely understand why. The republicans of Michigan should be ashamed of this. They won't be- because monsters don't feel sympathy or empathy. Just completely disgusting.
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All we can hope for at this point is a bigger and more aggressive role by the DOJ. The troglodytes are in charge of too many states.
http://blogs.usdoj.gov/blog/archives/104…
http://blogs.usdoj.gov/blog/archives/104…
13
Vile, disgusting, twisted, and unbelievable.
In the not so distant future, people will look back at this time in our country's history with horror and disbelief. The rebulican party should be ASHAMED of itself. Also, if you are a true conservative or Christian, and don't speak up on filth like this, you are just as to blame.
It breaks my heart.
Shame! Shame! Shame!
In the not so distant future, people will look back at this time in our country's history with horror and disbelief. The rebulican party should be ASHAMED of itself. Also, if you are a true conservative or Christian, and don't speak up on filth like this, you are just as to blame.
It breaks my heart.
Shame! Shame! Shame!
14
I wonder what happens if you point out what a stupid fuck someone is for believing in God. I mean, it my religious viewpoint as an Atheist and I have a right to express that you're a moron for believing it, right? And I could browbeat you about it? Remind you daily how facts are on my side and the Bible is just a work of fiction and only the world's stupidest dumb-asses would believe in it? That would be ok under this law, I presume.
15
Can someone start a "Pepper spray for the bullied" non profit organization? Because if the state Michigan isn't going to help the students they should be taught to fend for themselves.
19
Sorry, but if you can't stand the heat you shouldn't be near the fire.
Choosing a homosexual lifestyle doens't insulate you from being offended at how others view your choice. And it doesn't give you the right to censor their speech, no matter how hurtful it might be.
Bully a kid by pushing him around, taking his wallet and so on? Prosecute to the extent the law allows. But if the kid is so emotionally weak that he can't handle others not liking him life's going to be an uphill pull no matter what laws we pass.
Speech is not bullying. It is speech. If you don't like the contents of that speech, ignore it. I for instance think Dan Savage a vulgar, depraved disgusting human being with no redeeming value whatever. I think the tendency of his writings is to incite chaos and depravity. But I wouldn't for a moment say he should be stopped from writing his lying vile trash.
Choosing a homosexual lifestyle doens't insulate you from being offended at how others view your choice. And it doesn't give you the right to censor their speech, no matter how hurtful it might be.
Bully a kid by pushing him around, taking his wallet and so on? Prosecute to the extent the law allows. But if the kid is so emotionally weak that he can't handle others not liking him life's going to be an uphill pull no matter what laws we pass.
Speech is not bullying. It is speech. If you don't like the contents of that speech, ignore it. I for instance think Dan Savage a vulgar, depraved disgusting human being with no redeeming value whatever. I think the tendency of his writings is to incite chaos and depravity. But I wouldn't for a moment say he should be stopped from writing his lying vile trash.
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@14
"I wonder what happens if you point out what a stupid fuck someone is for believing in God."
As you well know, nothing does. The first amendment protects your right to be a defensive atheist as much as mine to be comfortable in my beliefs.
"I wonder what happens if you point out what a stupid fuck someone is for believing in God."
As you well know, nothing does. The first amendment protects your right to be a defensive atheist as much as mine to be comfortable in my beliefs.
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@19
You can always say whatever you want. You could say the most dim-witted, despicable, egotistical things you want (and it seems you have) without a single problem.
It's when those words start to incite violence, physical and emotional abuse, on people that it's a problem. This isn't even something close to what you could fathom, and it's ok. Just know that there are countless kids who, as a result of this crap, felt so depressed and so rejected that they committed suicide. If you're against this type of law, then you're for children committing suicide. Hope Jesus will be ok with that.
You can always say whatever you want. You could say the most dim-witted, despicable, egotistical things you want (and it seems you have) without a single problem.
It's when those words start to incite violence, physical and emotional abuse, on people that it's a problem. This isn't even something close to what you could fathom, and it's ok. Just know that there are countless kids who, as a result of this crap, felt so depressed and so rejected that they committed suicide. If you're against this type of law, then you're for children committing suicide. Hope Jesus will be ok with that.
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@19 There's no "choosing a homosexual lifestyle". You would know that if you weren't so keen on avoiding facts.
Obviously the real problem here, Seattleblues, is that you can't defend the law itself--oh, wait, it appears you are in favor of bullying kids for being different. What a wonderful father you must be.
You're falling back on your own indefensible claim that Dan is a liar. Go ahead, cite a specific instance of Dan lying. And while you're at it maybe you could retract some of the lies you've been caught telling.
Obviously the real problem here, Seattleblues, is that you can't defend the law itself--oh, wait, it appears you are in favor of bullying kids for being different. What a wonderful father you must be.
You're falling back on your own indefensible claim that Dan is a liar. Go ahead, cite a specific instance of Dan lying. And while you're at it maybe you could retract some of the lies you've been caught telling.
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@ 22, it's called projecting. I cite SB's lies all the time, and his best response is to pretend that the exact opposite of what happened is what actually happened.
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@21
Suicide is ALWAYS a choice. Always a tragic and terrible choice, but always a choice. By definition the act of ending ones own life must be willed.
Even in the case of other kids telling someone they'd be better off dead or variants of that the choice rests with the depressed young person who chose his or her own death. They could also have chosen counseling, or sharing their suicidal impulses with friends or family. They could have chosen to live just to spite their tormenters. The will to live in these kids was so weak that none of these options seemed better than the one to end their own life. And that is truly depressing even for this non teen, non gay adult.
I can and do feel how horrible any teen suicide is without necessarily needing to blame others for their deaths.
And you can frame it as 'pro teens being gay or pro suicide' all you like. I don't buy either horn or your dilemna.
Suicide is ALWAYS a choice. Always a tragic and terrible choice, but always a choice. By definition the act of ending ones own life must be willed.
Even in the case of other kids telling someone they'd be better off dead or variants of that the choice rests with the depressed young person who chose his or her own death. They could also have chosen counseling, or sharing their suicidal impulses with friends or family. They could have chosen to live just to spite their tormenters. The will to live in these kids was so weak that none of these options seemed better than the one to end their own life. And that is truly depressing even for this non teen, non gay adult.
I can and do feel how horrible any teen suicide is without necessarily needing to blame others for their deaths.
And you can frame it as 'pro teens being gay or pro suicide' all you like. I don't buy either horn or your dilemna.
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Seattleblues, are you saying that you have same sex attraction, but you choose not to act on it?
A law that restricts speech is not a good thing, but the law could be written that prevents students, from badgering, and tormenting other students with speech. Say it once, you're freely expressing yourself. Screaming, and/or repeating something like, "You're going to Hell! You're going to Hell!" is speech that serves no useful purpose and could dangerous to the object of the taunts. Teachers are agents of the state, and shouldn't be forcing their religious views on their captive audience.
A law that restricts speech is not a good thing, but the law could be written that prevents students, from badgering, and tormenting other students with speech. Say it once, you're freely expressing yourself. Screaming, and/or repeating something like, "You're going to Hell! You're going to Hell!" is speech that serves no useful purpose and could dangerous to the object of the taunts. Teachers are agents of the state, and shouldn't be forcing their religious views on their captive audience.
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Seattleblues, it's protected speech if I say I hope your children become paralyzed in a car accident, right? Cuz I do.
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@24 Are you suggesting that being gay is the equivalent of committing suicide? Because the facts suggest otherwise. You are familiar with facts, aren't you?
And please spare us meaningless misspellings like "I don't buy either horn or your dilemna" when you've essentially come out in favor of bullying. It's interesting, really. You're coming out in favor of the sort of hate speech you claim Dan is guilty of, and which you constantly criticize him for. Well, it wouldn't be the first time you've shown your philosophy to be 'do as I say, not as I do'.
And please spare us meaningless misspellings like "I don't buy either horn or your dilemna" when you've essentially come out in favor of bullying. It's interesting, really. You're coming out in favor of the sort of hate speech you claim Dan is guilty of, and which you constantly criticize him for. Well, it wouldn't be the first time you've shown your philosophy to be 'do as I say, not as I do'.
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@24
So it's on the backs of victims? Children who are raped have a higher tendency to commit suicide (http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publicati…).
So if a child gets raped and then can't deal with it, they commit suicide. But that's the kid's fault for not getting some therapy to deal with it?
I'm glad, ecstatic in fact, that you or no one you've ever loved has had to deal with depression. You're lucky. Why put a roadblock for other people to be happy?
So it's on the backs of victims? Children who are raped have a higher tendency to commit suicide (http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publicati…).
So if a child gets raped and then can't deal with it, they commit suicide. But that's the kid's fault for not getting some therapy to deal with it?
I'm glad, ecstatic in fact, that you or no one you've ever loved has had to deal with depression. You're lucky. Why put a roadblock for other people to be happy?
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@19- I'm totally unsurprised that you find it fitting that the dominant majority should be allowed to be as much of a bunch of total assholes as they like as long as they cloak themselves in morality. It appears to be what you do for a living.
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@20 By the way, are you really comfortable in your beliefs? For someone who's so comfortable you seem to be awfully defensive. And I find it hard to believe someone who's really comfortable in what he believes would start arguments and then resort of making things up in a pathetic attempt to win those arguments.
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@ 24, an action like suicide doesn't happen in a vacuum.
@ 27, you only validate SB's prejudices with statements like that. Leave his kids out of it.
@ 27, you only validate SB's prejudices with statements like that. Leave his kids out of it.
33
Gay teens in H.S. better start to toughen up. It's gunna get rougher. Shall we start a revised campaign? The "Get Smarter" campaign. Since Homo-haters are passing laws to allow violence against Gay teens, Gay teens are now on notice that it is not going to get better at least not in H.S. The haters are changing their tactics, the victims now need to change theirs.
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@24: Committing an act of violence is also a personal and voluntary choice (in most cases), but inciting someone to commit an act of violence puts a portion of the responsibility on you.
Suicide is the same that way.
Suicide is the same that way.
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@26
You're reading Little Danny Boy the Savages words and mistaking them for some approximation of reality.
I was at school 2 decades ago, in a much less accepting climate for gays and lesbians. Yet I don't recall a teacher or staff member mentioning homosexuality at all, never mind in religious overtones. And I was at school on the other side of the state, a much more conservative area.
I'm pretty sure that if a teacher were to espouse a specifically biblical interpretation of homosexuality in class he or she would get in trouble, whatever this law says. In fact, as a parent I'd have trouble with a teacher with no direct reason to do so addressing homosexuality at all. And we don't need laws for this, just parents who pay attention to what their kids do at school and react accordingly.
Kids are going to be bullied. Personally, I'd prefer my kids find ways to deal with others behavior. They're going to have to, some time. I just don't see how passing laws that do nothing but make adults feel better helps.
don't have an urge to smoke or to gamble. Yet I know that both are behaviors which I choose or don't, whether the urge to choose them exists in me or not. I have no desire to have sex with other men, yet I know that consensual sex is always a choice.
Veiled insinuations of closet homosexuality? Really? I don't have an urge to smoke or to gamble. Yet I know that both are behaviors which I choose or don't, whether the urge to choose them exists in me or not. I have no desire to have sex with other men, yet I know that consensual sex is always a choice.
You're reading Little Danny Boy the Savages words and mistaking them for some approximation of reality.
I was at school 2 decades ago, in a much less accepting climate for gays and lesbians. Yet I don't recall a teacher or staff member mentioning homosexuality at all, never mind in religious overtones. And I was at school on the other side of the state, a much more conservative area.
I'm pretty sure that if a teacher were to espouse a specifically biblical interpretation of homosexuality in class he or she would get in trouble, whatever this law says. In fact, as a parent I'd have trouble with a teacher with no direct reason to do so addressing homosexuality at all. And we don't need laws for this, just parents who pay attention to what their kids do at school and react accordingly.
Kids are going to be bullied. Personally, I'd prefer my kids find ways to deal with others behavior. They're going to have to, some time. I just don't see how passing laws that do nothing but make adults feel better helps.
don't have an urge to smoke or to gamble. Yet I know that both are behaviors which I choose or don't, whether the urge to choose them exists in me or not. I have no desire to have sex with other men, yet I know that consensual sex is always a choice.
Veiled insinuations of closet homosexuality? Really? I don't have an urge to smoke or to gamble. Yet I know that both are behaviors which I choose or don't, whether the urge to choose them exists in me or not. I have no desire to have sex with other men, yet I know that consensual sex is always a choice.
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Hey, 18 and 19 -
Here's a real christian, and he says your comments are unchristian. With bonus scripture citation! http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pla…
Also 19, choosing to be a dipshit doesn't insulate you from the wrath of the Lord or Slog. Children aren't 'fully cooked' so they can't be emotionally mature. Bullied teenagers are not destined to lead crappy lives - don't extrapolate your own experiences on to them.
Here's a real christian, and he says your comments are unchristian. With bonus scripture citation! http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pla…
Also 19, choosing to be a dipshit doesn't insulate you from the wrath of the Lord or Slog. Children aren't 'fully cooked' so they can't be emotionally mature. Bullied teenagers are not destined to lead crappy lives - don't extrapolate your own experiences on to them.
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@35 At least Rob's reading, which is not something you could be accused of, based on both your arguments and your poor spelling and cutting and pasting.
To try and make it clear to you what's being discussed here, the legislature passed an anti-bullying law but allowed an exemption for bullying that's done for moral or religious reasons. I can see why you'd be in favor of that since supposedly moral and religious reasons are the sole basis for your arguments, in spite of repeatedly demonstrating that you're neither very moral or religious. You just like to claim to be as a way to pretend you're better than other people. And yet I don't think even you believe you really are.
To try and make it clear to you what's being discussed here, the legislature passed an anti-bullying law but allowed an exemption for bullying that's done for moral or religious reasons. I can see why you'd be in favor of that since supposedly moral and religious reasons are the sole basis for your arguments, in spite of repeatedly demonstrating that you're neither very moral or religious. You just like to claim to be as a way to pretend you're better than other people. And yet I don't think even you believe you really are.
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@28
I really can't see how you could read that from what I wrote.
What is demonstrable is that gay youth are more susceptible to suicide. Advocates for gay youth might actually study why this is so, rather than just settling on unsubstantiated claims that's is only because of 'bullying.' Maybe it is, but so far all the support for that is anecdotal, all while children needlessly die.
Nor do I buy that making teasing gay kids illegal will change one little thing for gay kids. Can you seriously imagine a kid compounding their torture at school by becoming a snitch, by even testifying in court against a classmate? If so, you went to a far different school than I did.
Laws like this make adults feel as though they're doing something. They're nothing to do with child welfare.
I really can't see how you could read that from what I wrote.
What is demonstrable is that gay youth are more susceptible to suicide. Advocates for gay youth might actually study why this is so, rather than just settling on unsubstantiated claims that's is only because of 'bullying.' Maybe it is, but so far all the support for that is anecdotal, all while children needlessly die.
Nor do I buy that making teasing gay kids illegal will change one little thing for gay kids. Can you seriously imagine a kid compounding their torture at school by becoming a snitch, by even testifying in court against a classmate? If so, you went to a far different school than I did.
Laws like this make adults feel as though they're doing something. They're nothing to do with child welfare.
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@14 In reality, the more likely scenario is one in which an atheist or other nonconfirmist, to borrow an outdated Church of England term, is bullied by the Christians.
It's happened plenty of times before, such as the case in Louisiana where the atheist student (who had the gall to ask that the separation of church and state be followed in his high school's graduation ceremony) was ostracized, received threats, was insulted by school officials and disowned by his parents.
There was another case where a student tried to form an atheist student club and had a similar response from the members of his school.
I didn't really have any problems but you know, it's a lot easier to hide atheism and it's not something a lot of Christians assume about people. I remember multiple times when people assumed, because I was not a troublemaker, that I must be a good Christian boy.
It's happened plenty of times before, such as the case in Louisiana where the atheist student (who had the gall to ask that the separation of church and state be followed in his high school's graduation ceremony) was ostracized, received threats, was insulted by school officials and disowned by his parents.
There was another case where a student tried to form an atheist student club and had a similar response from the members of his school.
I didn't really have any problems but you know, it's a lot easier to hide atheism and it's not something a lot of Christians assume about people. I remember multiple times when people assumed, because I was not a troublemaker, that I must be a good Christian boy.
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Wow! She's wonderful. It is wonderful to see the highest form of compassion, seeking justice and a change in the denomination system, in an elected official.
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There was another case where a couple families in Oklahoma (I think) were run out of town due to a separation of church and state issue. They burned down the one family's house.
Their crime? They belonged to less mainstream Christian churches, and a Baptist church sponsored a prayer meeting every morning in a school classroom or the auditorium or something. During this prayer meeting, they delayed the beginning of the school day and did not allow students to enter the buildings, forcing them to wait outside for the Baptists to finish their prayer meeting, even in the winter. So, they challenged this practice.
So... as much as it's satisfying to imagine that the atheists would be able to insult religion all the time during school and have this law explicitly allow it, in reality it's much more of a threat to atheists and other (non-)religious minorities than the other way around.
Their crime? They belonged to less mainstream Christian churches, and a Baptist church sponsored a prayer meeting every morning in a school classroom or the auditorium or something. During this prayer meeting, they delayed the beginning of the school day and did not allow students to enter the buildings, forcing them to wait outside for the Baptists to finish their prayer meeting, even in the winter. So, they challenged this practice.
So... as much as it's satisfying to imagine that the atheists would be able to insult religion all the time during school and have this law explicitly allow it, in reality it's much more of a threat to atheists and other (non-)religious minorities than the other way around.
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@ 35, "I was at school 2 decades ago, in a much less accepting climate for gays and lesbians. Yet I don't recall a teacher or staff member mentioning homosexuality at all, never mind in religious overtones. And I was at school on the other side of the state, a much more conservative area."
That's because it wasn't an issue then. Any gay youth in that school were terrified to show it. And if they killed themselves because of it, there probably was no way for anyone to know that that was the reason.
That's because it wasn't an issue then. Any gay youth in that school were terrified to show it. And if they killed themselves because of it, there probably was no way for anyone to know that that was the reason.
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35, That's true, kids will be bullied, but it doesn't mean it should be without consequence for tormentor. If caught, the bully should be punished.
Yes, children should learn to ignore the hurtful words of others, but not all children have good support systems, especially if they are gay, since many parents, like you, would disown their child if he or she were to come out as gay. If one of your children is gay, that child will not come to you.
Homosexuality is neither an addiction or a mental illness. It's not immoral in anyway. Consensual sex is a choice, but sexual orientation is not. Why shouldn't gay people be allowed to marry their partners? Gay people are not a threat to you. I'm not sure why you're so afraid of them.
You certainly are fixated on gay sex and Dan Savage. I don't hang out on right wing Christian blogs. I've never anything posted on one. I have wonder why you feel so compelled to post day after day about gay sex and Dan Savage, someone you claim to find vile, and a liar (without offing any evidence to these lies) Why can't you stop thinking about Dan Savage, and gay sex?
Yes, children should learn to ignore the hurtful words of others, but not all children have good support systems, especially if they are gay, since many parents, like you, would disown their child if he or she were to come out as gay. If one of your children is gay, that child will not come to you.
Homosexuality is neither an addiction or a mental illness. It's not immoral in anyway. Consensual sex is a choice, but sexual orientation is not. Why shouldn't gay people be allowed to marry their partners? Gay people are not a threat to you. I'm not sure why you're so afraid of them.
You certainly are fixated on gay sex and Dan Savage. I don't hang out on right wing Christian blogs. I've never anything posted on one. I have wonder why you feel so compelled to post day after day about gay sex and Dan Savage, someone you claim to find vile, and a liar (without offing any evidence to these lies) Why can't you stop thinking about Dan Savage, and gay sex?
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@ Seattle Blue: I'd like to exercise my free speech by printing out you remarks and reading them to your boss, co-workers and friends, if you have any. Where do you work?
Oh. I get it. You're being ANONYMOUS so you won't have to bear responsibility for your words. Case closed, coward.
Oh. I get it. You're being ANONYMOUS so you won't have to bear responsibility for your words. Case closed, coward.
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@19 "Choosing a homosexual lifestyle..."
@24 "Suicide is ALWAYS a choice. "
See, you insist that homosexuality is chosen, then you bring up suicide and the fact that it's a choice. As has been pointed out by others suicide doesn't happen in a vacuum.
You claim it's "demonstrable is that gay youth are more susceptible to suicide". Oh, hey, suddenly those kids didn't choose to be gay. You're admitting they're gay youth, but you haven't got any facts to back up your claim that being gay is a contributing factor to suicide.
Maybe you should stop focusing on the gay part of this since this is really about all kids and trying to stop bullying period. But you've taken the position that we should just accept bullying because it's going to happen no matter what, and you're also obviously in favor of bullying kids who you dismiss as "emotionally weak". So I can see why you'd miss that this isn't just about gay youth.
@24 "Suicide is ALWAYS a choice. "
See, you insist that homosexuality is chosen, then you bring up suicide and the fact that it's a choice. As has been pointed out by others suicide doesn't happen in a vacuum.
You claim it's "demonstrable is that gay youth are more susceptible to suicide". Oh, hey, suddenly those kids didn't choose to be gay. You're admitting they're gay youth, but you haven't got any facts to back up your claim that being gay is a contributing factor to suicide.
Maybe you should stop focusing on the gay part of this since this is really about all kids and trying to stop bullying period. But you've taken the position that we should just accept bullying because it's going to happen no matter what, and you're also obviously in favor of bullying kids who you dismiss as "emotionally weak". So I can see why you'd miss that this isn't just about gay youth.
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@35: While I was in high school, there was exactly one incident of racial violence (directed against a white kid, by the way) at my school. By your logic, racism must not be a problem anywhere else.
Can you really not conceive of anything that you have not personally experienced? You don't understand why people might rely temporarily on unemployment, or why people might be involuntarily attracted to people of the same gender, or why people who have lost their livelihood might be a bit angry at the people who drove the economy into its current ditch.
Holy shit, this makes perfect sense now. Seattleblues knows only what is in front of him at the moment. Because he has never experienced poverty, he considers it impossible for anyone to become or remain poor other than by their own lack of initiative. Because he isn't inherently attracted to other men, he insists that those who are must be doing it on purpose. Because he has never faced institutionalized prejudice for his pigmentation or religion or gender or sexual orientation, he dismisses any protest against such as whining. Because he holds a conservative viewpoint, he believes that anyone who holds a liberal opinion simply hates the ideals on which this country was founded.
In short, Seattleblues is incapable of understanding or relating to anyone at all different from himself. Damn, and I thought that I was poorly socialized.
Can you really not conceive of anything that you have not personally experienced? You don't understand why people might rely temporarily on unemployment, or why people might be involuntarily attracted to people of the same gender, or why people who have lost their livelihood might be a bit angry at the people who drove the economy into its current ditch.
Holy shit, this makes perfect sense now. Seattleblues knows only what is in front of him at the moment. Because he has never experienced poverty, he considers it impossible for anyone to become or remain poor other than by their own lack of initiative. Because he isn't inherently attracted to other men, he insists that those who are must be doing it on purpose. Because he has never faced institutionalized prejudice for his pigmentation or religion or gender or sexual orientation, he dismisses any protest against such as whining. Because he holds a conservative viewpoint, he believes that anyone who holds a liberal opinion simply hates the ideals on which this country was founded.
In short, Seattleblues is incapable of understanding or relating to anyone at all different from himself. Damn, and I thought that I was poorly socialized.
48
Please stop responding to Seattleblues posts. He's always posting his views on here and if your a regular reader of SLOG you know his shtick. His world view is pathetically narrow and will probably never change. He obviously get a charge from the vitriol he inspires people to spew at his ridiculous and ignorant statements.
49
If ever an issue cried out for rallying the flying monkeys, it'd be this one. Bury the goddam legislators in negative emails, letters, voicemails. Let them know they are NOT the majority. Not anymore. They may, for now, be the majority in the Michigan legislature, but their days of power are coming to an end.
50
Wow. Some Democrats do have the balls to tell Republicans to go f**k themselves. It's about time.
52
Kids shouldn't bully other kids for any reason. It's the wrong thing to do. But saying mean things to others shouldn't be illegal, period. If physical violence takes place, then by all means, prosecute the perpetrators, but there doesn't need to be a special "bullying" law. And of course teachers and administrators should punish students for bullying kids, as they can and do.
As far as suicide goes, yeah it doesn't happen in a vacuum, but no matter what kind of bullying took place, the kid who commits suicide is absolutely and solely responsible for killing him/herself. Since I think it's safe to say many kids are bullied but only a few commit suicide, it seems there might be other factors contributing to the kid choosing suicide than just the bullying alone. Even if bullying is the sole reason a kid decides to commit suicide, the bullies didn't pull the trigger, and are therefore not responsible for murder. If a man kills himself after his wife divorces him should his ex-wife be held responsible for his death? Or what if I got fired from my job and after being unable to find another job I became homeless and robbed a bank in my desperation? Should my previous employer be held responsible for the robbery? I think the obvious answer to both questions is a resounding "NO". Nothing any of us does happens in a vacuum. That doesn't mean if we commit some sort of crime that everyone who contributed negatively to our state of mind should be charged with the crime we committed.
As far as suicide goes, yeah it doesn't happen in a vacuum, but no matter what kind of bullying took place, the kid who commits suicide is absolutely and solely responsible for killing him/herself. Since I think it's safe to say many kids are bullied but only a few commit suicide, it seems there might be other factors contributing to the kid choosing suicide than just the bullying alone. Even if bullying is the sole reason a kid decides to commit suicide, the bullies didn't pull the trigger, and are therefore not responsible for murder. If a man kills himself after his wife divorces him should his ex-wife be held responsible for his death? Or what if I got fired from my job and after being unable to find another job I became homeless and robbed a bank in my desperation? Should my previous employer be held responsible for the robbery? I think the obvious answer to both questions is a resounding "NO". Nothing any of us does happens in a vacuum. That doesn't mean if we commit some sort of crime that everyone who contributed negatively to our state of mind should be charged with the crime we committed.
53
Kids shouldn't bully other kids for any reason. It's the wrong thing to do. But saying mean things to others shouldn't be illegal, period. If physical violence takes place, then by all means, prosecute the perpetrators, but there doesn't need to be a special "bullying" law. And of course teachers and administrators should punish students for bullying kids, as they can and do.
As far as suicide goes, yeah it doesn't happen in a vacuum, but no matter what kind of bullying took place, the kid who commits suicide is absolutely and solely responsible for killing him/herself. Since I think it's safe to say many kids are bullied but only a few commit suicide, it seems there might be other factors contributing to the kid choosing suicide than just the bullying alone. Even if bullying is the sole reason a kid decides to commit suicide, the bullies didn't pull the trigger, and are therefore not responsible for murder. If a man kills himself after his wife divorces him should his ex-wife be held responsible for his death? Or what if I got fired from my job and after being unable to find another job I became homeless and robbed a bank in my desperation? Should my previous employer be held responsible for the robbery? I think the obvious answer to both questions is a resounding "NO". Nothing any of us does happens in a vacuum. That doesn't mean if we commit some sort of crime that everyone who contributed negatively to our state of mind should be charged with the crime we committed.
As far as suicide goes, yeah it doesn't happen in a vacuum, but no matter what kind of bullying took place, the kid who commits suicide is absolutely and solely responsible for killing him/herself. Since I think it's safe to say many kids are bullied but only a few commit suicide, it seems there might be other factors contributing to the kid choosing suicide than just the bullying alone. Even if bullying is the sole reason a kid decides to commit suicide, the bullies didn't pull the trigger, and are therefore not responsible for murder. If a man kills himself after his wife divorces him should his ex-wife be held responsible for his death? Or what if I got fired from my job and after being unable to find another job I became homeless and robbed a bank in my desperation? Should my previous employer be held responsible for the robbery? I think the obvious answer to both questions is a resounding "NO". Nothing any of us does happens in a vacuum. That doesn't mean if we commit some sort of crime that everyone who contributed negatively to our state of mind should be charged with the crime we committed.
54
You will find in KJV, that God finds homosexuality to be an abomination.
I guess the Bible only applies to Christians so everyone else will view, think and feel as they will
and it really doesn't matter. (For now).
I guess the Bible only applies to Christians so everyone else will view, think and feel as they will
and it really doesn't matter. (For now).
55
I'll remember to "cite moral reasons" the next time I feel like making racist comments or yelling "fire" in a crowded theater. You know, "FIRE! According to God, this theater is on FIRE! The FIREY SINS OF HELL ARE BURNING OUR ALL OUR LIVES UNLESS WE REPENT!" Justifiable, right? Or, how about, "I can't sit next to a black student, or he will steal my wallet. I know because the Bible once described a thief as 'dark'." That wouldn't be out of place in a school, would it? Since I cited my moral reasons and all?
And @24 did you ever consider that the reason those kids had "such a weak will to live" was because of the still-prevalent attitudes of people like you, who believe that homosexuality is a choice and that they should just "find a way to deal with it?" You suggest talking about their "suicidal impulses" with friends, family, or counselors. Well, what about children who don't feel safe confiding in any of the three? There are parents who kick their teenage children out of the house for admitting to non-straight feelings, there are "friends" who would shun and avoid them rather than risk coming under fire from the same bullies, and I can only imagine how hard it would be to open up to a counselor when teachers don't even seem to be allies. And even if they did talk to counselors, do you think it would help if the counselor then responded with your tone? That all kids get bullied, and they have to expect a certain amount of negativity by "choosing" a homosexual lifestyle, and that they just need to find a way to be stronger? Because it's not like that's just additional bullying, right?!
And @24 did you ever consider that the reason those kids had "such a weak will to live" was because of the still-prevalent attitudes of people like you, who believe that homosexuality is a choice and that they should just "find a way to deal with it?" You suggest talking about their "suicidal impulses" with friends, family, or counselors. Well, what about children who don't feel safe confiding in any of the three? There are parents who kick their teenage children out of the house for admitting to non-straight feelings, there are "friends" who would shun and avoid them rather than risk coming under fire from the same bullies, and I can only imagine how hard it would be to open up to a counselor when teachers don't even seem to be allies. And even if they did talk to counselors, do you think it would help if the counselor then responded with your tone? That all kids get bullied, and they have to expect a certain amount of negativity by "choosing" a homosexual lifestyle, and that they just need to find a way to be stronger? Because it's not like that's just additional bullying, right?!
56
@2: Yes, I was thinking that too. That means that you can start a Jihad against Christians in the state of Michigan. Or beat people up for being Catholic when you're Lutheran. Or publicly mock Evangelicals if you're Catholic.
This may, in fact, be the only way to shut these assholes up. Especially considering that there's far more Catholics in Michigan than there are homos. Get to work, kids!
This may, in fact, be the only way to shut these assholes up. Especially considering that there's far more Catholics in Michigan than there are homos. Get to work, kids!
57
@46
Good god you're dense.
I made no claims that being gay was a contributing factor to suicide. Unlike the Stranger staff I understand the difference between correlation and causation. It may be or it may not, and until the proof is in one way or the other correlation is the logical assumption.
But if I knew that suicide in some group to which i belonged, chosen or not, was higher than in comparative populations I think I'd be trying to do something useful about it. Except that it evangelizes gay lifestlye choices, It Gets Better appears to be such an effort, and Savage deserves some credit for that. But getting to the root causes and addressing them would seem to be an even better response.
And all Savage and you folks seem to have on that is 'bullies.' Apparently no kid can stand being treated meanly, and if they are and they kill themselves that weakness is the fault of the other kids. (Though we all have been bullied as kids, and sometimes as adult victims of a bully like Rick Santorum has been with Savage and yet most of us didn't choose to end our own lives.) No kids ego can handle the assault of others not LIKING him or her by this theory.
I submit what I did when told that a couples divorce was caused by the failure to have kids. If the marriage couldn't handle the stress of not having kids how in the world would it have handled the stress of having them? If a gay kid can't handle the social views of their lifestlye choice at 17 how in the world will they make it as an adult?
Of course, Savage and Holden and others here give an excellent example of just how someone might do this. They whine consistently about the effects of the sexual choices they made. They whine about how they can't marry, though surely they knew that when they chose homosexuality. They filter anything and everything through the lens of that chosen homosexuality, though most of us could tell them that not everything has to do with gays. Basically, they stay whiny self obsessed adolescents all their lives. Pathetic and sad, but there you go.
More...
Good god you're dense.
I made no claims that being gay was a contributing factor to suicide. Unlike the Stranger staff I understand the difference between correlation and causation. It may be or it may not, and until the proof is in one way or the other correlation is the logical assumption.
But if I knew that suicide in some group to which i belonged, chosen or not, was higher than in comparative populations I think I'd be trying to do something useful about it. Except that it evangelizes gay lifestlye choices, It Gets Better appears to be such an effort, and Savage deserves some credit for that. But getting to the root causes and addressing them would seem to be an even better response.
And all Savage and you folks seem to have on that is 'bullies.' Apparently no kid can stand being treated meanly, and if they are and they kill themselves that weakness is the fault of the other kids. (Though we all have been bullied as kids, and sometimes as adult victims of a bully like Rick Santorum has been with Savage and yet most of us didn't choose to end our own lives.) No kids ego can handle the assault of others not LIKING him or her by this theory.
I submit what I did when told that a couples divorce was caused by the failure to have kids. If the marriage couldn't handle the stress of not having kids how in the world would it have handled the stress of having them? If a gay kid can't handle the social views of their lifestlye choice at 17 how in the world will they make it as an adult?
Of course, Savage and Holden and others here give an excellent example of just how someone might do this. They whine consistently about the effects of the sexual choices they made. They whine about how they can't marry, though surely they knew that when they chose homosexuality. They filter anything and everything through the lens of that chosen homosexuality, though most of us could tell them that not everything has to do with gays. Basically, they stay whiny self obsessed adolescents all their lives. Pathetic and sad, but there you go.
58
Hey Seattle Blues!
God is telling me that you're a flaming Nazi douchefuck who deserves to have his dick split open with a rusty butter knife. Also he says you're going to hell and there's nothing you can do about it.
What? Why are you upset? GOD told me to tell you! I have religious reasons for talking!! YOU CAN'T SILENCE ME!! THE LAW IS ON MY SIDE!!!
Aw, did that make you sad? Well TOO BAD, DOUCHEFUCK!!
If you CHOOSE to be a flaming Nazi douchefuck, don't be surprised when people act accordingly.
....By calling you a flaming Nazi douchefuck.
God is telling me that you're a flaming Nazi douchefuck who deserves to have his dick split open with a rusty butter knife. Also he says you're going to hell and there's nothing you can do about it.
What? Why are you upset? GOD told me to tell you! I have religious reasons for talking!! YOU CAN'T SILENCE ME!! THE LAW IS ON MY SIDE!!!
Aw, did that make you sad? Well TOO BAD, DOUCHEFUCK!!
If you CHOOSE to be a flaming Nazi douchefuck, don't be surprised when people act accordingly.
....By calling you a flaming Nazi douchefuck.
59
@Seattleblues...
WTF dude, calling you a douchebag would be an insult to douchebags all over.
Re: " if the kid is so emotionally weak that he can't handle others not liking him life's going to be an uphill pull no matter what laws we pass". Are you suggesting that we let the weaker perish because they're weaker and just accept these casualties because of your weird warped vision of social Darwinism? Is that the kind of society you envision? (psst, seattleblues; you're not a very touchy-feely kinda person are you? Were you abused a a child? Is your dadddy a judge in Aransas County? Do you get hard (apologies if you're a girl) when you hear about some fag getting tormented to death? )
And then this "choosing your sexuality thing" is getting sooooooo fucking old. Exactly how old were you when you made that pivotal choice that we all must face. I was three. Maybe two. It had something to do with my father yelling (rather loudly) at me because I wanted to play with my older sisters dolls. Right then and there. Yup, gonna be a fag. What was it like for you?
WTF dude, calling you a douchebag would be an insult to douchebags all over.
Re: " if the kid is so emotionally weak that he can't handle others not liking him life's going to be an uphill pull no matter what laws we pass". Are you suggesting that we let the weaker perish because they're weaker and just accept these casualties because of your weird warped vision of social Darwinism? Is that the kind of society you envision? (psst, seattleblues; you're not a very touchy-feely kinda person are you? Were you abused a a child? Is your dadddy a judge in Aransas County? Do you get hard (apologies if you're a girl) when you hear about some fag getting tormented to death? )
And then this "choosing your sexuality thing" is getting sooooooo fucking old. Exactly how old were you when you made that pivotal choice that we all must face. I was three. Maybe two. It had something to do with my father yelling (rather loudly) at me because I wanted to play with my older sisters dolls. Right then and there. Yup, gonna be a fag. What was it like for you?
60
@57: "Unlike the Stranger staff I understand the difference between correlation and causation."
I worry more about your inability to distinguish between truth and fiction.
I worry more about your inability to distinguish between truth and fiction.
61
@57: So it's okay to declare open season on the kids who are different and weaker? Or better yet, who are *perceived* to be different?
Fuck you. Fuck you hard, you ingrate.
Fuck you. Fuck you hard, you ingrate.
62
Bullying in school does not teach kids how to deal with bullying in adult life. Adults have choices young people do not. Young people are compelled by law to be in school and as such, cannot choose to avoid it. We put kids into a place they cannot escape, then tell them they have to deal with bullying and destructive behavior without the main tool that most adults are free to use--getting away from the destructive personality targeting them. Would your advice to a young woman who was being hit by her boyfriend be, "Get used to it?"
And just to introduce myself, I am a Christian and a student in a Lutheran seminary nearing graduation. To be Christian does not mean hating GLBT people. I am blessed to know many GLBT people as friends and as colleagues in ministry. Every person is of equal worth in God's eyes, and this bullying and hatred is not what I and others like me understand as Christian. It is not. I am just sorry the haters get the press.
And just to introduce myself, I am a Christian and a student in a Lutheran seminary nearing graduation. To be Christian does not mean hating GLBT people. I am blessed to know many GLBT people as friends and as colleagues in ministry. Every person is of equal worth in God's eyes, and this bullying and hatred is not what I and others like me understand as Christian. It is not. I am just sorry the haters get the press.
63
Bullying in school does not teach kids how to deal with bullying in adult life. Adults have choices young people do not. Young people are compelled by law to be in school and as such, cannot choose to avoid it. We put kids into a place they cannot escape, then tell them they have to deal with bullying and destructive behavior without the main tool that most adults are free to use--getting away from the destructive personality targeting them. Would your advice to a young woman who was being hit by her boyfriend be, "Get used to it?"
And just to introduce myself, I am a Christian and a student in a Lutheran seminary nearing graduation. To be Christian does not mean hating GLBT people. I am blessed to know many GLBT people as friends and as colleagues in ministry. Every person is of equal worth in God's eyes, and this bullying and hatred is not what I and others like me understand as Christian. It is not. I am just sorry the haters get the press.
And just to introduce myself, I am a Christian and a student in a Lutheran seminary nearing graduation. To be Christian does not mean hating GLBT people. I am blessed to know many GLBT people as friends and as colleagues in ministry. Every person is of equal worth in God's eyes, and this bullying and hatred is not what I and others like me understand as Christian. It is not. I am just sorry the haters get the press.
64
I just read @57's comment. I noticed something. When an argument against gays or protection of gays includes assertions about the "choice of homosexuality," that person has made a willful choice to accept inaccurate information and has used that inaccurate information as the basis for his entire argument. Five or six paragraphs about the consequences of the Earth being flat would be equally without merit and completely impervious to reason.
Those who choose homosexuality have themselves to blame for being bulled? Sigh. Some people, if they don't know, you can't tell 'em.
Those who choose homosexuality have themselves to blame for being bulled? Sigh. Some people, if they don't know, you can't tell 'em.
65
@64: Yeah! Seattleblues made the choice to accept inaccurate information as fact, and now he's complaining about people calling him on it. He's perfectly welcome to treat falsehoods as truth, but he can't just demand that society approve of it.
66
Maybe the folks feeding the troll are sock puppets. And so this post is a meta mistake. Stop feeding the troll.
67
Here are your choices of fact sets-
Homosexuality is an innate and unavoidable trait. For a person to act upon the desires it involves is no more choice based than for them to have red hair or be short or tall.
If so, it follows that all sexuality is choiceless, and we'd better move all the pedophiles in prison to insane assylums. We'd better remove all criminal sanctions for any sexual behavior, including rape, since the supposed criminal is in fact the helpless pawn of his or her innate sexuality. We can confine the poor dears to assylums as dangers to others, but criminal sanctions are off the table.
Your wife or husband, girlfriend or boyfriend can no longer call extramarital sex cheating. You were the helpless victim of your sexual desires, and you had no choice but to boink your secretary or the mailman or the waiter during your anniversary dinner.
Or, in the real world, fact set 2-
Sexual tastes, including homosexual desires, may have a biological basis (though no concrete evidence exists to suggest this.) Or they may be the result of Martian mind rays for all that the origin of the desire matters. At any rate, the choices one makes about how they engage their sexual tastes are conscious ones, and are subject to the same social and legal consequences of any other conscious choice. Since homosexual behavior involves no victims but the adult consenting practitioners no criminal sanction attaches, nor involuntary psychiatric treatment for the disease. Since no victim exists nor should we discriminate against those attracted to their own sex in employment or public accomodation or housing as a basic issue of respect for each other as citizens.
But social consequences do apply, as with any choices we make. Legal consequences, such as being unable to marry the object of your affections, do as well. You have every right to make other choices if these consequences seem to high a price. And you have the responsibility to accept them if not.
It's called logic and reason. You might try it sometime.
More...
Homosexuality is an innate and unavoidable trait. For a person to act upon the desires it involves is no more choice based than for them to have red hair or be short or tall.
If so, it follows that all sexuality is choiceless, and we'd better move all the pedophiles in prison to insane assylums. We'd better remove all criminal sanctions for any sexual behavior, including rape, since the supposed criminal is in fact the helpless pawn of his or her innate sexuality. We can confine the poor dears to assylums as dangers to others, but criminal sanctions are off the table.
Your wife or husband, girlfriend or boyfriend can no longer call extramarital sex cheating. You were the helpless victim of your sexual desires, and you had no choice but to boink your secretary or the mailman or the waiter during your anniversary dinner.
Or, in the real world, fact set 2-
Sexual tastes, including homosexual desires, may have a biological basis (though no concrete evidence exists to suggest this.) Or they may be the result of Martian mind rays for all that the origin of the desire matters. At any rate, the choices one makes about how they engage their sexual tastes are conscious ones, and are subject to the same social and legal consequences of any other conscious choice. Since homosexual behavior involves no victims but the adult consenting practitioners no criminal sanction attaches, nor involuntary psychiatric treatment for the disease. Since no victim exists nor should we discriminate against those attracted to their own sex in employment or public accomodation or housing as a basic issue of respect for each other as citizens.
But social consequences do apply, as with any choices we make. Legal consequences, such as being unable to marry the object of your affections, do as well. You have every right to make other choices if these consequences seem to high a price. And you have the responsibility to accept them if not.
It's called logic and reason. You might try it sometime.
68
@61 and 59
That's a willful misleading of what I wrote throughout this thread. Feeling saddened by the tragic loss of a young life, gay or straight, through suicide isn't exclusive of knowing that young people that emotionally delicate should be identified by parents and teachers and steered towards help. Nor is it exclusive of knowing that the sole person responsible for a suicide is the suicide him or herself, tragic as that may be.
So please, tell me the studies that Gladd has commissioned into the causes of gay teen suicide? Anyone? How about any study whatever trying to identify why gay kids seem more at risk for this tragedy? Still silent?
Then do me the kindness of not identifying bullying as the sole cause, and silly impotent anti-bullying laws as the sole cure for, gay teen suicide.
That's a willful misleading of what I wrote throughout this thread. Feeling saddened by the tragic loss of a young life, gay or straight, through suicide isn't exclusive of knowing that young people that emotionally delicate should be identified by parents and teachers and steered towards help. Nor is it exclusive of knowing that the sole person responsible for a suicide is the suicide him or herself, tragic as that may be.
So please, tell me the studies that Gladd has commissioned into the causes of gay teen suicide? Anyone? How about any study whatever trying to identify why gay kids seem more at risk for this tragedy? Still silent?
Then do me the kindness of not identifying bullying as the sole cause, and silly impotent anti-bullying laws as the sole cure for, gay teen suicide.
69
Every thread on Slog is a fine thread, until Seattleblues shows up.
Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll.
Please do not feed the trolls.
Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll. Troll.
Please do not feed the trolls.
70
@67: Logic and reason are not exactly your good friends.
Sexual orientation is innate. However, some sexual orientations inflict direct harm on others. Pedophilia, zoophilia, and various other orientations are known as paraphiliae because they involve, as the object of their attraction, beings that cannot give informed consent. As such, paraphiliae cannot be indulged without inflicting harm on their object.
If homosexuality were a choice, one could make valid arguments for keeping marriage restricted to opposite-gender pairings. However, sexual orientation is INVOLUNTARY. Please provide a legitimate reason for denying homosexuals equal rights and protections under the law.
@68: GLAAD? I don't know of any studies they've commissioned. Luckily, they're not the only ones carrying out research!
This review of published studies points out that the phenomenon of elevated suicide rates among young homosexuals cannot be explained by sexuality alone, but rather by "gender nonconformity, early awareness of homosexuality, stress, violence, lack of support, school drop-out, family problems, acquaintances’ suicide attempts, homelessness, and substance abuse or other psychiatric symptoms." (bolding mine) That is to say, it's caused to a good degree by the stresses associated with not fitting in or being harassed.
This study found that the top three causes of suicide attempts among young male homosexuals were domestic problems, "[a]dolescent intrapsychic distress", and external stresses such as peer problems.
This paper did a general rundown of the evidence and found that peer and adult harassment of homosexual youth causes increased incidence of school-related problems, conflict with the law and substance abuse, prostitution, and suicide.
This review of the literature said it like it is: "For sexual minority youth and those questioning their sexual identities and orientations, growing up in a culture that is characterized by sexual prejudice and that is overtly hostile toward homosexuality is likely to produce chronic anxiety and stress and therefore to have negative effects on mental health." Short and sweet.
So, Seattleblues, there's a nice heap of evidence in support of what we've been saying. I suppose we shan't be hearing from you for a little while; you never seem to have any facts to present.
More...
Sexual orientation is innate. However, some sexual orientations inflict direct harm on others. Pedophilia, zoophilia, and various other orientations are known as paraphiliae because they involve, as the object of their attraction, beings that cannot give informed consent. As such, paraphiliae cannot be indulged without inflicting harm on their object.
If homosexuality were a choice, one could make valid arguments for keeping marriage restricted to opposite-gender pairings. However, sexual orientation is INVOLUNTARY. Please provide a legitimate reason for denying homosexuals equal rights and protections under the law.
@68: GLAAD? I don't know of any studies they've commissioned. Luckily, they're not the only ones carrying out research!
This review of published studies points out that the phenomenon of elevated suicide rates among young homosexuals cannot be explained by sexuality alone, but rather by "gender nonconformity, early awareness of homosexuality, stress, violence, lack of support, school drop-out, family problems, acquaintances’ suicide attempts, homelessness, and substance abuse or other psychiatric symptoms." (bolding mine) That is to say, it's caused to a good degree by the stresses associated with not fitting in or being harassed.
This study found that the top three causes of suicide attempts among young male homosexuals were domestic problems, "[a]dolescent intrapsychic distress", and external stresses such as peer problems.
This paper did a general rundown of the evidence and found that peer and adult harassment of homosexual youth causes increased incidence of school-related problems, conflict with the law and substance abuse, prostitution, and suicide.
This review of the literature said it like it is: "For sexual minority youth and those questioning their sexual identities and orientations, growing up in a culture that is characterized by sexual prejudice and that is overtly hostile toward homosexuality is likely to produce chronic anxiety and stress and therefore to have negative effects on mental health." Short and sweet.
So, Seattleblues, there's a nice heap of evidence in support of what we've been saying. I suppose we shan't be hearing from you for a little while; you never seem to have any facts to present.
71
Great post. Great example of a politician doing something right, and with sincerity.
I wish all politicians were like this. That many of our representatives spend most of the year going to work half asleep on hour behalf is disgusting.
I wish all politicians were like this. That many of our representatives spend most of the year going to work half asleep on hour behalf is disgusting.
72
67, People don't choose to be gay, (again, do you only choose to not act on you same sex attractions?) and they certainly didn't choose what sex they were born. Your biracial sex and marriage are behaviors of choice. You could have chosen to marry within your own race. Much like people who demanded behaviors based on what race a person was born , you demand behaviors based on what sex a person was born.
73
@57 Seattleblues, God, you're dishonest. You said it's "demonstrable is that gay youth are more susceptible to suicide". That is a direct quote from you. Then you follow that up with "I made no claims that being gay was a contributing factor to suicide."
Technically you didn't make such a claim. You just claimed, without any evidence, and I'll repeat it because you're either unable to remember your own arguments or trying really hard to back away from a statement you wish you hadn't made, that it's "demonstrable is that gay youth are more susceptible to suicide".
So you are admitting you believe gay youth commit suicide at a higher rate even though you claim there's no connection between being gay and suicide. So what, then, is the connection?
What really blows my mind is that after you painted yourself into that corner you go on to repeat the argument that "Apparently no kid can stand being treated meanly, and if they are and they kill themselves that weakness is the fault of the other kids." Way to blame the victim there, Seattleblues. I thought even you would back down from that argument after it had been pointed out what a vile position it is, but apparently you think we should just allow bullying because, hey, it's going to happen anyway, and if kids who are bullied kill themselves then it's their fault, right?
Don't criticize others for misrepresenting what you've said. I'm just quoting your own words and trying to confirm that you're really as stupid and cruel as your words make you sound.
I know this is the point where Seattleblues can't handle the evidence and he runs away to go troll another thread, but I'll keep in mind that he believes bullying is wrong when it's done to someone he likes or by someone he doesn't like but it's okay when it's done by people who think like him. Typical.
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Technically you didn't make such a claim. You just claimed, without any evidence, and I'll repeat it because you're either unable to remember your own arguments or trying really hard to back away from a statement you wish you hadn't made, that it's "demonstrable is that gay youth are more susceptible to suicide".
So you are admitting you believe gay youth commit suicide at a higher rate even though you claim there's no connection between being gay and suicide. So what, then, is the connection?
What really blows my mind is that after you painted yourself into that corner you go on to repeat the argument that "Apparently no kid can stand being treated meanly, and if they are and they kill themselves that weakness is the fault of the other kids." Way to blame the victim there, Seattleblues. I thought even you would back down from that argument after it had been pointed out what a vile position it is, but apparently you think we should just allow bullying because, hey, it's going to happen anyway, and if kids who are bullied kill themselves then it's their fault, right?
Don't criticize others for misrepresenting what you've said. I'm just quoting your own words and trying to confirm that you're really as stupid and cruel as your words make you sound.
I know this is the point where Seattleblues can't handle the evidence and he runs away to go troll another thread, but I'll keep in mind that he believes bullying is wrong when it's done to someone he likes or by someone he doesn't like but it's okay when it's done by people who think like him. Typical.
74
I agree with Brooklyn Reader: Please, Sloggers, do NOT feed the trolls!!!
What I find so troubling about Seattleblues is that I have read his comments before and it is clear that he is a middle-aged man with a family. Yet he spends HOURS on a liberal website (written by a gay sex advice columnist, no less - clearly there are some repressed issues in his psyche that he is not willing to address), trying to "liberal bait" and preach his bullshit to a bunch of people who know better.
A word of advice to Seattleblues: Get a life. The fact that you have a family and a job, yet spend HOURS online, arguing with strangers through your computer screen is not only extremely anti-social, but it is downright pathetic. You are an adult, yet you act like an adolescent with nothing to do. And honestly, the fact that you literally spend hours on this website is indicative that there is some other psychological component at play (if someone honestly believes that homosexuality is a "choice", then why the hell would they be so OBSESSED with commenting on articles about sexuality that are written by a gay guy?). Stop neglecting your family by spending hours "liberal-baiting" anonymously from behind your computer screen.
You must be so unhappy, insecure, unfulfilled, and lonely. It's actually really sad.
What I find so troubling about Seattleblues is that I have read his comments before and it is clear that he is a middle-aged man with a family. Yet he spends HOURS on a liberal website (written by a gay sex advice columnist, no less - clearly there are some repressed issues in his psyche that he is not willing to address), trying to "liberal bait" and preach his bullshit to a bunch of people who know better.
A word of advice to Seattleblues: Get a life. The fact that you have a family and a job, yet spend HOURS online, arguing with strangers through your computer screen is not only extremely anti-social, but it is downright pathetic. You are an adult, yet you act like an adolescent with nothing to do. And honestly, the fact that you literally spend hours on this website is indicative that there is some other psychological component at play (if someone honestly believes that homosexuality is a "choice", then why the hell would they be so OBSESSED with commenting on articles about sexuality that are written by a gay guy?). Stop neglecting your family by spending hours "liberal-baiting" anonymously from behind your computer screen.
You must be so unhappy, insecure, unfulfilled, and lonely. It's actually really sad.
75
@74
Yes, well, if that same level of indignant righteous rage is felt at the lies and inuendo of Savage, Constant and Goldstein towards people like Rick Santorum, Rob McKenna or Herman Cain is expressed by you, I'll take your commentary with a grain of salt. Until then it's just one more hypocrital lefty.
@70
Thanks for actually citing things, rather than making claims.
Now to your cites-
The first merely reviews other studies, and then, by your own quotes, says that homosexuality is stressful to the practitioner. How this is helpful to you, I'm not entirely clear.
The second says that suicide may be the result of external peer dissaproval or a poor family life. In other news, the sun rose this morning, and gravity still works.
The third is again a review of others work, and makes the astonishing claim that choosing a lifestyle at odds with your peers might just result in negative social pressures. Who knew?
So where is your biological link? Where's the homosexual gene? Homosexuality is so clearly a physically inescapable trait, finding this must be a piece of cake, so where's the evidence? Talking to someone who feels victimized about how victimized they are may be a useful counseling technique, but as an academic exercise to demonstrate the reality of their victimization it's useless. That's all these papers do, take the anecdotal evidence of self designated martyrs as established scientific reality.
Even if a genetic or other physical cause of homosexuality were identified, so what? Heart disease runs in my family, but I exercise and eat well to avoid it anyway. Schizophrenia has a physical component, but we still treat the unfortunate victims of the disease. So why should we celebrate homosexuality merely because it may have a physical component?
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Yes, well, if that same level of indignant righteous rage is felt at the lies and inuendo of Savage, Constant and Goldstein towards people like Rick Santorum, Rob McKenna or Herman Cain is expressed by you, I'll take your commentary with a grain of salt. Until then it's just one more hypocrital lefty.
@70
Thanks for actually citing things, rather than making claims.
Now to your cites-
The first merely reviews other studies, and then, by your own quotes, says that homosexuality is stressful to the practitioner. How this is helpful to you, I'm not entirely clear.
The second says that suicide may be the result of external peer dissaproval or a poor family life. In other news, the sun rose this morning, and gravity still works.
The third is again a review of others work, and makes the astonishing claim that choosing a lifestyle at odds with your peers might just result in negative social pressures. Who knew?
So where is your biological link? Where's the homosexual gene? Homosexuality is so clearly a physically inescapable trait, finding this must be a piece of cake, so where's the evidence? Talking to someone who feels victimized about how victimized they are may be a useful counseling technique, but as an academic exercise to demonstrate the reality of their victimization it's useless. That's all these papers do, take the anecdotal evidence of self designated martyrs as established scientific reality.
Even if a genetic or other physical cause of homosexuality were identified, so what? Heart disease runs in my family, but I exercise and eat well to avoid it anyway. Schizophrenia has a physical component, but we still treat the unfortunate victims of the disease. So why should we celebrate homosexuality merely because it may have a physical component?
76
@75 I'll ask again. Can you cite an actual lie told by Dan Savage? I wouldn't go criticizing others for actually citing evidence if I were you since you're so unwilling to come up with any evidence to back up the claims you make.
As for your comparisons to heart disease and schizophrenia, are you really saying homosexuality is a disease? That sounds exactly like what you're saying, but I'm sure now that I'm rephrasing exactly what you're saying you'll call me stupid and claim that you never said any such thing.
As for your comparisons to heart disease and schizophrenia, are you really saying homosexuality is a disease? That sounds exactly like what you're saying, but I'm sure now that I'm rephrasing exactly what you're saying you'll call me stupid and claim that you never said any such thing.
77
@Tiffany Lamp
Out of respect for the ideas of another-
Noting that many subarbanites favor khaki trousers is not the same as saying living in the suburbs is inextricable with khaki. Noting that a relatively high incidence of suicide occurs among gay youth doesn't make the link to homosexuality as a cause.
The first is correlation- many of a given group exhibit a given trait.
The second is causation- being part of a given group means you are going to, or are more likely to exhibit a given trait.
Since I know no reason to believe that homosexuality as such is a cause of gay youth suicide, I don't make the claim that it is. Nor do I know that bullying, per se, is the cause of the higher incidence of suicide among gay youth, so I don't make that claim either.
And this is my problem with laws like this. From a practical point of view they require that the already socially marginalized kid further marginalize him or herself by becoming a snitch. Not really all that likely to happen, in my humble opinion, unless school culture has changed radically from when I was there. From a legal and practical standpoint, passing a law to solve a problem you haven't even demonstrated to exist is problematic.
Out of respect for the ideas of another-
Noting that many subarbanites favor khaki trousers is not the same as saying living in the suburbs is inextricable with khaki. Noting that a relatively high incidence of suicide occurs among gay youth doesn't make the link to homosexuality as a cause.
The first is correlation- many of a given group exhibit a given trait.
The second is causation- being part of a given group means you are going to, or are more likely to exhibit a given trait.
Since I know no reason to believe that homosexuality as such is a cause of gay youth suicide, I don't make the claim that it is. Nor do I know that bullying, per se, is the cause of the higher incidence of suicide among gay youth, so I don't make that claim either.
And this is my problem with laws like this. From a practical point of view they require that the already socially marginalized kid further marginalize him or herself by becoming a snitch. Not really all that likely to happen, in my humble opinion, unless school culture has changed radically from when I was there. From a legal and practical standpoint, passing a law to solve a problem you haven't even demonstrated to exist is problematic.
78
@75 As an added thought, there's never been a gene identified for left-handedness, so are you going to deny that it exists?
I'm not saying being left-handed is something that should be celebrated but just because it's mostly a right-handed world that's not a reason to be intolerant of it either. But applying your argument you might as well be saying that allowing people to be left-handed is celebrating it, and is somehow an infringement on your right to live in a world where left-handedness is never acknowledged even though it doesn't affect you in any way.
I'm not saying being left-handed is something that should be celebrated but just because it's mostly a right-handed world that's not a reason to be intolerant of it either. But applying your argument you might as well be saying that allowing people to be left-handed is celebrating it, and is somehow an infringement on your right to live in a world where left-handedness is never acknowledged even though it doesn't affect you in any way.
80
@77 You did say that what's "demonstrable is that gay youth are more susceptible to suicide", even though you have nothing to back this up. As I already said, you may not be claiming there's a connection between homosexuality and suicide but you did make a claim that being gay and a higher rate of suicide go together.
You may wish you hadn't said that, and if that's the case go ahead and admit you made a mistake.
As for your problem with this law, you've admitted that a kid who is "emotionally delicate should be identified by parents and teachers and steered towards help", but you're short on specifics about what sort of help should be provided. Maybe some kind of anti-bullying measure would be a start. I'm not going to claim it would fix everything, any more than a law against theft is going to prevent stealing, but it would be a start.
You may wish you hadn't said that, and if that's the case go ahead and admit you made a mistake.
As for your problem with this law, you've admitted that a kid who is "emotionally delicate should be identified by parents and teachers and steered towards help", but you're short on specifics about what sort of help should be provided. Maybe some kind of anti-bullying measure would be a start. I'm not going to claim it would fix everything, any more than a law against theft is going to prevent stealing, but it would be a start.
81
@75: What kind of idiot are you? Let me summarize our arguments:
Seattleblues: Bullying doesn't cause suicides; suicide is a personal choice.
venomlash: Here's a bunch of evidence indicating that bullying and other peer-relations problems DO cause suicides.
Seattleblues: That doesn't prove that people are born gay!
Do you see the disconnect between the point I made and the point you tried to refute? Your post does NOTHING to explain why iguanas love tire swings. You can talk about homosexuality and heart disease, but iguanas aren't known to be gay, and they tend to suffer more from kidney problems in captivity, so your statements have no real relevance.
Seattleblues: Bullying doesn't cause suicides; suicide is a personal choice.
venomlash: Here's a bunch of evidence indicating that bullying and other peer-relations problems DO cause suicides.
Seattleblues: That doesn't prove that people are born gay!
Do you see the disconnect between the point I made and the point you tried to refute? Your post does NOTHING to explain why iguanas love tire swings. You can talk about homosexuality and heart disease, but iguanas aren't known to be gay, and they tend to suffer more from kidney problems in captivity, so your statements have no real relevance.
82
@77: Correlation and causation ARE two separate things, as you have noted. What you don't seem to know is how to properly infer causality. And so I shall edumacate you a little.
In statistics, you need to have two of the following three things in order to reasonably infer that A causes B:
-Correlation: A and B occur together.
-Mechanism: You have a reasonable explanation for HOW A might cause B.
-Control: Changing A causes a corresponding change in B.
See, we've got the first two! Homosexual youth who commit suicide are more likely to have been bullied (correlation) and it is plausible that the added stress of bullying might be enough to push a troubled person over the brink (mechanism). Therefore, we can tentatively conclude that bullying causes suicide in homosexual youth.
Seattleblues, you are a contractor, not a statistician. Please leave science to people who know science. Or at least educate yourself before trying to tell us what to believe.
In statistics, you need to have two of the following three things in order to reasonably infer that A causes B:
-Correlation: A and B occur together.
-Mechanism: You have a reasonable explanation for HOW A might cause B.
-Control: Changing A causes a corresponding change in B.
See, we've got the first two! Homosexual youth who commit suicide are more likely to have been bullied (correlation) and it is plausible that the added stress of bullying might be enough to push a troubled person over the brink (mechanism). Therefore, we can tentatively conclude that bullying causes suicide in homosexual youth.
Seattleblues, you are a contractor, not a statistician. Please leave science to people who know science. Or at least educate yourself before trying to tell us what to believe.
83
@81
Oh.
So all personal actions are the result of the social pressures around you, and those social pressures are the actual fault, not you?
Well, then, let's remove all criminals from the prisons, since they have no blame in their crimes. Burglarize a house? Your poverty and the culture of materialism in which we live made you do it, not your own choices! Murder someone? You know damn well it was the desensitization to violence you experienced from exposure to video games and television that made it possible, not your own behavior! Poor poor little vicitimized criminals!
Actually, this holds true in liberal thought. It never once occured to libs to blame people who took out a mortgage they couldn't afford, or took a degree that had no market value or took credit card debt out for parties and trips while in college. It's those evil bankers who held guns to their heads and made them sign, Godfather style! "Your brains or your signature will be on that contract" was the phrase uttered in banking branches accross this nation!
At what point in your mind does a person assume responsibility for their own actions? At what point can we say that they and they alone chose to do whatever they do, and should accept the consequences of the choice?
It's entirely possible to feel the sad and tragic waste that is suicide, gay or straight, without assigning blame to anyone but the suicide. It's entirely possible to say that a person who takes their own life is soley responsible for that action, and not hate gays. Pass all the laws you want, throw kids in prison and ruin their lives for voicing an opinion, however mean spirited or even hateful, and you won't change the basic facts. We all have to live in the world according to our choices and accept the social consequences of them. Don't like those consequences? Change your choices.
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Oh.
So all personal actions are the result of the social pressures around you, and those social pressures are the actual fault, not you?
Well, then, let's remove all criminals from the prisons, since they have no blame in their crimes. Burglarize a house? Your poverty and the culture of materialism in which we live made you do it, not your own choices! Murder someone? You know damn well it was the desensitization to violence you experienced from exposure to video games and television that made it possible, not your own behavior! Poor poor little vicitimized criminals!
Actually, this holds true in liberal thought. It never once occured to libs to blame people who took out a mortgage they couldn't afford, or took a degree that had no market value or took credit card debt out for parties and trips while in college. It's those evil bankers who held guns to their heads and made them sign, Godfather style! "Your brains or your signature will be on that contract" was the phrase uttered in banking branches accross this nation!
At what point in your mind does a person assume responsibility for their own actions? At what point can we say that they and they alone chose to do whatever they do, and should accept the consequences of the choice?
It's entirely possible to feel the sad and tragic waste that is suicide, gay or straight, without assigning blame to anyone but the suicide. It's entirely possible to say that a person who takes their own life is soley responsible for that action, and not hate gays. Pass all the laws you want, throw kids in prison and ruin their lives for voicing an opinion, however mean spirited or even hateful, and you won't change the basic facts. We all have to live in the world according to our choices and accept the social consequences of them. Don't like those consequences? Change your choices.
84
@82
And again, the sole person responsible for a suicide is the suicide, whatever external pressures are brought to bear, whatever self serving anecdotal 'studies' say otherwise.
And again, the sole person responsible for a suicide is the suicide, whatever external pressures are brought to bear, whatever self serving anecdotal 'studies' say otherwise.
85
@19: When I was in high school, I received letters in my locker telling me that everyone would be happier if I killed myself. If that were to happen in a work space environment, it would easy grounds for a harassment suit. Words are bullying.
86
@83: Are you incapable of dividing blame? All suicides ARE, by definition, partially or wholly the doing of the deceased. However, if a person's continual harassment of another drives them to self-terminate, the first party is PARTIALLY to blame.
@84: So when the literature, statistics, and raw data disagree with you, you dismiss them as inaccurate and biased. What a real scientist we have here!
@84: So when the literature, statistics, and raw data disagree with you, you dismiss them as inaccurate and biased. What a real scientist we have here!
87
Venomlash is right. And SB defends the sociopathic inclination to absolve wrongdoers in this case. He'd doubtless blame you for the pain you feel when he kicks you in the balls.
88
Seattleblues, People don't choose to be gay, (again, do you only choose to not act on you same sex attractions?) and they certainly didn't choose what sex they were born. Your biracial sex and marriage are behaviors of choice. You could have chosen to marry within your own race. Much like people who demanded behaviors based on what race a person was born , you demand behaviors based on what sex a person was born.
89
I think it is unconstitutional for one person or party to persecute another person or party based on religious views.
When a bully says "God hates gays" he is persecuting someone based on his religious views.
Making this kind of bullying legal isn't protection of religious freedom, but rather the opposite.
When a bully says "God hates gays" he is persecuting someone based on his religious views.
Making this kind of bullying legal isn't protection of religious freedom, but rather the opposite.
91
Sen.Whitmer: "I have their (ten Michigan children in the past decade whose deaths are directly attributable to bullying) names and their ages here but I can't read them.
I think they've been too victimized as it is....."
wow.
we wonder if Danny is aware of the "don't pimp the suffering of abused children for your own selfish agenda" rule of human decency?*
.
*relax girls, its a rhetorical question. we all know Danny has no scrupples about it........
I think they've been too victimized as it is....."
wow.
we wonder if Danny is aware of the "don't pimp the suffering of abused children for your own selfish agenda" rule of human decency?*
.
*relax girls, its a rhetorical question. we all know Danny has no scrupples about it........
92
Of course our little Danny finds this Very Important.
Because he thinks Americans do not have the right to believe, in their hearts, that homosexual behavior is immoral.
Even if those beliefs never are reflected in their words or actions.
Danny wants to reach into the heart and soul of every resident of the Qunited States of Gaymerica and snatch out any beliefs or thoughts that put The Gay in a negative light.
Your thoughts are not yours.
Your beliefs are not yours.
They belong to the Fascist Faggot Belief Police.
Did Hitler try to dictate people's innermost beliefs?
Did Stalin try to dictate what people could think?
Did even Lucifer aspire to purge every thought he found offensive from the breast of Mankind?
Our little Danny aspires to Greatness........
Because he thinks Americans do not have the right to believe, in their hearts, that homosexual behavior is immoral.
Even if those beliefs never are reflected in their words or actions.
Danny wants to reach into the heart and soul of every resident of the Qunited States of Gaymerica and snatch out any beliefs or thoughts that put The Gay in a negative light.
Your thoughts are not yours.
Your beliefs are not yours.
They belong to the Fascist Faggot Belief Police.
Did Hitler try to dictate people's innermost beliefs?
Did Stalin try to dictate what people could think?
Did even Lucifer aspire to purge every thought he found offensive from the breast of Mankind?
Our little Danny aspires to Greatness........
94
Sloggers, can we all chip in a few bucks - out of the goodness of our "lefty" hearts - to pay for Seattleblues to get some therapy? Even his gay-hating God knows he needs it.
95
Just like no one's going take away your right to hate Jews, Muslims, black people, Latinos, etc, no one's going to take away your right to hate the gays. So you can rest easy...well except for your constant struggle to repress your homosexual desires.
96
@69 I couldn't agree more! Please fellow sloggers, don't feed the trolls! Any response AT ALL diverts an interesting post into a long-winded thread that is the troll's agenda.
97
@86 and seattleblues promptly disappears. Hits reset button. Restarts argument from beginning in next comment string.
98
@97
Oh. I can see the confusion. It's called having a life. It's fun to run circles around the patently absurd arguments of the left, sure. It makes for a nice break from work, a diversion. But you do realize I don't owe anyone an answer to anything, or you to me, right? This is a blog, not a deposition.
As for the argument, VL and I could go around about it for days. It wouldn't alter anything. From his leftwing standpoint the ultimate responsibility for every personal decision is the surrounding societies'. From my perspective each and every choice I make is mine, and the good or bad results mine as well.
Accross that gulf of understanding I don't think a bridge could be thrown.
Oh. I can see the confusion. It's called having a life. It's fun to run circles around the patently absurd arguments of the left, sure. It makes for a nice break from work, a diversion. But you do realize I don't owe anyone an answer to anything, or you to me, right? This is a blog, not a deposition.
As for the argument, VL and I could go around about it for days. It wouldn't alter anything. From his leftwing standpoint the ultimate responsibility for every personal decision is the surrounding societies'. From my perspective each and every choice I make is mine, and the good or bad results mine as well.
Accross that gulf of understanding I don't think a bridge could be thrown.
99
@88
And again, my wife makes no choice to be female. She made no choice to have a dark skin color. There was no decision involved at any point.
Our marriage, with me being white and she black, was a choice. But the basic definition of marriage prior to anti-miscegenation laws being ruled unconstitutional and after that ruling didn't change. A man and woman join in a lifelong union sanctioned by the society in which they live, and more often than not have kids. Because raising children in a stable environment capable of passing on the larger culture is deemed a worthy goal we incentivize this with the formal and legal recognition of marriage.
A gay man or lesbian differs for legal purposes only in the expression of their sexual desires, which expression is always a choice.
I could work with someone for years and never know that they prefer other men or other women as sexual partners, or care that they do. I couldn't work with a woman or man, an Ethiopian or classic Nordic blonde for 2 seconds without knowing these involuntary traits of that person. Because we choose to be just we say that these traits, having no element of choice, should infer no element of pride or shame, superiority or inferiority. They just are.
I really, really don't care that you like to sleep with men. It makes not the slightest difference to my life. Have fun, if that's your taste. But don't ask me to alter thousands of years of social structure because of that choice. Don't ask me to alter the notions of family or marriage or simple sexual morality for your ease. You're a grown up with the perfect right to make your decisions, so long as you're willing to live with the consequences.
And again, my wife makes no choice to be female. She made no choice to have a dark skin color. There was no decision involved at any point.
Our marriage, with me being white and she black, was a choice. But the basic definition of marriage prior to anti-miscegenation laws being ruled unconstitutional and after that ruling didn't change. A man and woman join in a lifelong union sanctioned by the society in which they live, and more often than not have kids. Because raising children in a stable environment capable of passing on the larger culture is deemed a worthy goal we incentivize this with the formal and legal recognition of marriage.
A gay man or lesbian differs for legal purposes only in the expression of their sexual desires, which expression is always a choice.
I could work with someone for years and never know that they prefer other men or other women as sexual partners, or care that they do. I couldn't work with a woman or man, an Ethiopian or classic Nordic blonde for 2 seconds without knowing these involuntary traits of that person. Because we choose to be just we say that these traits, having no element of choice, should infer no element of pride or shame, superiority or inferiority. They just are.
I really, really don't care that you like to sleep with men. It makes not the slightest difference to my life. Have fun, if that's your taste. But don't ask me to alter thousands of years of social structure because of that choice. Don't ask me to alter the notions of family or marriage or simple sexual morality for your ease. You're a grown up with the perfect right to make your decisions, so long as you're willing to live with the consequences.
100
@99: Thousands of years of social structure were altered so that you could marry the woman you love, and so that many others like you could do the same. The tribalism of old and the racism of recent times were thrown aside in favor of letting people be. Two hundred years ago, your family would not have been considered such, you could not have officially married her, and miscegenation was considered on par with bestiality. Two hundred years ago you would have been judged for condemning your children to being multiracial. Luckily, we do not live in such disgusting times.
By your love for your wife, and by the love you have for your children, I charge you to consider the situation from the point of view of someone other than yourself.
Also, if expressing one's sexual desires is a choice, straight people should be judged congruently to gay people for expressing THEIR sexual desires. Additionally, you imply that personal traits are innate (involuntary) iff they are plainly visible to the eye. What the fuck, man. That isn't even remotely true.
By your love for your wife, and by the love you have for your children, I charge you to consider the situation from the point of view of someone other than yourself.
Also, if expressing one's sexual desires is a choice, straight people should be judged congruently to gay people for expressing THEIR sexual desires. Additionally, you imply that personal traits are innate (involuntary) iff they are plainly visible to the eye. What the fuck, man. That isn't even remotely true.
101
99, back before biracial marriage was legalized, they would have told you marrying your wife was immoral, and a mockery of the sanctity of marriage. You chose those behaviors, and they were considered obscene and perverted. It was a redefinition of thousands of years of racial marriage morality. They would have told you you can't marry the person that you love because of the color you were born. Fast forward to today, and you are saying that I can't marry the person that I love because of the sex that I was born.
102
It's interesting that there are some bigots and crypto-bigots who routinely post here, and whose beliefs are not in accordance with the morals of the majority of the rest of the community. Thus presumably based on their own logic and that of the Michigan law we are entitled to bully them for this?
These people enjoy the act of posting, and they enjoy the reactions that they create. They feed off it as it reinforces their own sense of superiority. You will never convince these people, they are not open to be convinced. They will not learn, except perhaps how to be more effective bigots. All you can do is studiously ignore them, and perhaps in doing so give them a taste of the powerlessness that a child bullied for their sexuality might feel.
These people enjoy the act of posting, and they enjoy the reactions that they create. They feed off it as it reinforces their own sense of superiority. You will never convince these people, they are not open to be convinced. They will not learn, except perhaps how to be more effective bigots. All you can do is studiously ignore them, and perhaps in doing so give them a taste of the powerlessness that a child bullied for their sexuality might feel.
103
@99: You say: "A man and woman join in a lifelong union sanctioned by the society in which they live, and more often than not have kids. Because raising children in a stable environment capable of passing on the larger culture is deemed a worthy goal we incentivize this with the formal and legal recognition of marriage."
And that is exactly why we SHOULD legalize gay marriage. Because a large number of those gay couples will adopt children who would otherwise NOT be raised in a stable environment. I was adopted, and although my parents happen to be a hetero couple, it's one of the main reasons I advocate for gay marriage. I could have been less lucky than I am. I could have languished in a foster home until my teens. Gay couples are more likely to adopt older kids rather than holding out for an infant to adopt, and those older kids are the ones who most desperately need a stable home.
@81: it's worse than that. Here's what I seemed to see:
Seattleblues -asks for evidence that gay suicide can be caused by bullying
venomlash -provides evidence that gay suicide can be caused by bullying
Seattleblues -says, "this study just says that gay suicide can be caused by bullying, that's nothing new" (paraphrased here, naturally)
-and a post later has gone back to saying he doesn't know whether bullying is the cause of higher suicide rates among gay youth! And uses it to defend his position that you shouldn't make laws based on something you can't prove, when he just admitted that it was not only proven but apparently common knowledge that kids who are harassed by their peers are more likely to commit suicide!
I have to say though, I disagree with your ideas about iguanas, because when you look at the data, it's clear that the average annual rainfall in Connecticut is MUCH too high for them to live indigenously. I kind of hate to say this, but I think the only real option is to put them all down.
(In all seriousness, thank you for providing those data. They were enlightening, and very interesting.)
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And that is exactly why we SHOULD legalize gay marriage. Because a large number of those gay couples will adopt children who would otherwise NOT be raised in a stable environment. I was adopted, and although my parents happen to be a hetero couple, it's one of the main reasons I advocate for gay marriage. I could have been less lucky than I am. I could have languished in a foster home until my teens. Gay couples are more likely to adopt older kids rather than holding out for an infant to adopt, and those older kids are the ones who most desperately need a stable home.
@81: it's worse than that. Here's what I seemed to see:
Seattleblues -asks for evidence that gay suicide can be caused by bullying
venomlash -provides evidence that gay suicide can be caused by bullying
Seattleblues -says, "this study just says that gay suicide can be caused by bullying, that's nothing new" (paraphrased here, naturally)
-and a post later has gone back to saying he doesn't know whether bullying is the cause of higher suicide rates among gay youth! And uses it to defend his position that you shouldn't make laws based on something you can't prove, when he just admitted that it was not only proven but apparently common knowledge that kids who are harassed by their peers are more likely to commit suicide!
I have to say though, I disagree with your ideas about iguanas, because when you look at the data, it's clear that the average annual rainfall in Connecticut is MUCH too high for them to live indigenously. I kind of hate to say this, but I think the only real option is to put them all down.
(In all seriousness, thank you for providing those data. They were enlightening, and very interesting.)
104
99, Not to mention any children you and your wife produced would have been pariahs in both the white and black communities. It was considered a selfish, immoral thing to create mixed race children.
105
Oh, SeattleBlues. Saying that being gay is a choice implies that being straight is a choice. So: did you choose to be straight? I seem to recall you saying that you did not, that your attraction to women is completely natural to you. So, why is it so difficult to believe that same-sex attraction is completely natural to other folks?
Now, you may say that gay folks should just deny those attractions. That doesn't seem very Christian. Why would God make folks gay, and then punish them by not letting them be happy? You seem very happy with your family, fulfilled with your marriage. Why deny that to gay folks? What do you get from that? How would it harm you? Oh, wait, you've already said it wouldn't harm you or your marriage.
Then you'll claim that there's some societal cost to this, that we won't see for at least a generation. However, I can't recall if you've ever been clear on what that damage would be, or would look like. Could you help me out here?
The Declaration of Independence says that we have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The 14th Amendment to the Constitution says that citizens must be treated equally under the law. Why do you hate America?
Now, you may say that gay folks should just deny those attractions. That doesn't seem very Christian. Why would God make folks gay, and then punish them by not letting them be happy? You seem very happy with your family, fulfilled with your marriage. Why deny that to gay folks? What do you get from that? How would it harm you? Oh, wait, you've already said it wouldn't harm you or your marriage.
Then you'll claim that there's some societal cost to this, that we won't see for at least a generation. However, I can't recall if you've ever been clear on what that damage would be, or would look like. Could you help me out here?
The Declaration of Independence says that we have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The 14th Amendment to the Constitution says that citizens must be treated equally under the law. Why do you hate America?
106
105
Why would God make folks gay, and then punish them by not giving them a fuckable hole?
If God makes homosexuals why doesn't he give homosexual men vaginas?
That doesn't seem very Christian.....
Why would God make folks gay, and then punish them by not giving them a fuckable hole?
If God makes homosexuals why doesn't he give homosexual men vaginas?
That doesn't seem very Christian.....
107
105
" So, why is it so difficult to believe that same-sex attraction is completely natural to other folks?"
that's easy.
all living creatures gotta reproduce.
it's a requirement of "life".
humans have a strong innate biological drive to have heterosexual sex.
anyone who claims to be, instead, attracted to their own gender would be a non-reproducable mutant freak biological accident.
"homosexuals" are not non-reproducable mutant freak biological accidents.
they're just confused. and full of shit.
" So, why is it so difficult to believe that same-sex attraction is completely natural to other folks?"
that's easy.
all living creatures gotta reproduce.
it's a requirement of "life".
humans have a strong innate biological drive to have heterosexual sex.
anyone who claims to be, instead, attracted to their own gender would be a non-reproducable mutant freak biological accident.
"homosexuals" are not non-reproducable mutant freak biological accidents.
they're just confused. and full of shit.
108
107, You're trying to convince yourself. You post day and night about gay sex. Your so obsessed with homosexuality. With such dedication and passion about gayness, you must have a personal stake in the matter.
109
@106: Hello...? The anus sure counts as fuckable, right? I mean, why would the anus be so close to the prostate if it weren't supposed to be fucked?
@107: I don't think you understand what "irreproducible" means. Homosexuality IS probably an accident of biology, the result of hormonal levels in utero causing a male brain to acquire feminine attributes or a female brain to acquire masculine attributes. (Scientists have identified a region of the brain that shows this phenomenon clearly in homosexuals.) But it's a pretty damn common accident, and a pretty innocuous one. I don't see why you've got your panties in such a twist over it.
@107: I don't think you understand what "irreproducible" means. Homosexuality IS probably an accident of biology, the result of hormonal levels in utero causing a male brain to acquire feminine attributes or a female brain to acquire masculine attributes. (Scientists have identified a region of the brain that shows this phenomenon clearly in homosexuals.) But it's a pretty damn common accident, and a pretty innocuous one. I don't see why you've got your panties in such a twist over it.
110
Anti-bullying legislation is bullshit as a whole anyway. Sorry, but meh. Physical violence, toss them in jail for a few days, words ... sorry but meh. You can ignore people around you, I do it every time I walk along third between Pike and Pine ... fucking gang bangers and junkies.
111
There is absolute concensus in the scientific community
concerning the structure and function of the human
alimentary and reproductive systems. These two systems are
absolutely separate since the human does not possess a
cloaca. Reproduction can occur only by utilizing the
reproductive system, requiring both the female ovum (egg)
and the male sperm. Ova are fertilized naturally in the
fallopian tubes of women following sexual intercourse by the
sperm which transits through the vagina and uterus following
release from the penis. Although artificial methods are
available and used, the anatomy and physiology of humans
have resulted in a natural means for conception.
The structure and function of the male and female human
reproductive systems are fully complementary. Anatomically
the vagina is designed to receive the penis. It is lined
with squamous epithelium and is surrounded by a muscular
tube intended for penile intromission. The rectum, on the
other hand, is lined with a delicate mucosal surface and a
single layer of columnar epithelium intenuea primarily ror
the reabsorption of water and electrolytes. The rectum is
incapable of mechanical protection against abrasion and
severe damage to the colonic mucosa can result if objects
that are large, sharp, or pointed are inserted into the
rectum (Agnew, 1986).
concerning the structure and function of the human
alimentary and reproductive systems. These two systems are
absolutely separate since the human does not possess a
cloaca. Reproduction can occur only by utilizing the
reproductive system, requiring both the female ovum (egg)
and the male sperm. Ova are fertilized naturally in the
fallopian tubes of women following sexual intercourse by the
sperm which transits through the vagina and uterus following
release from the penis. Although artificial methods are
available and used, the anatomy and physiology of humans
have resulted in a natural means for conception.
The structure and function of the male and female human
reproductive systems are fully complementary. Anatomically
the vagina is designed to receive the penis. It is lined
with squamous epithelium and is surrounded by a muscular
tube intended for penile intromission. The rectum, on the
other hand, is lined with a delicate mucosal surface and a
single layer of columnar epithelium intenuea primarily ror
the reabsorption of water and electrolytes. The rectum is
incapable of mechanical protection against abrasion and
severe damage to the colonic mucosa can result if objects
that are large, sharp, or pointed are inserted into the
rectum (Agnew, 1986).
112
The anus and rectum, unlike the vagina contain no
natural lubricating function. Thus insertion of
unlubricated objects or inadequate dilation of the anus
before insertion of a large object can result in tissue
laceration. "The internal and external anal sphincters are
elastic rings of muscle which generally remain tightly
constricted except during defecation. The anal sphincters
are also intended for material to pass through them in a
direction that leads out of the body. When an attempt is
made to insert something in the reverse direction, the
muscles of the sphincter constrictw (Agnew, 1986).
From the perspective of pathology and pathophysiology,
the varied sexual practices of homosexual men have resulted
in a diverse and expanded concept of sexually transmitted
disease and associated trauma. Four general groups of
conditions may be encountered in homosexually active men:
classical sexually transmitted diseases (gonorrhea,
infections with chlamydia trachomatis, syphilis, herpes
simplex infections, genital warts, pubic lice, scabies);
enteric diseases (infections with hig gel la species,
Campylobacter jejuni, Entamoeba histolytica, Giardia
lamblia, hepatitis A, hepatitis B, hepatitis non-A, non-B,
and cytomegalovirus); trauma (fecal incontinence,
hemorrhoids, anal fissure, foreign bodies, rectosigmoid
tears, allergic proctitis, penile edema, chemical sinusitis,
inhaled nitrite burns, and sexual assault of the male
patient); and the acquired immunodeficiency syndrome (AIDS)"
(Owen, 1985) .
natural lubricating function. Thus insertion of
unlubricated objects or inadequate dilation of the anus
before insertion of a large object can result in tissue
laceration. "The internal and external anal sphincters are
elastic rings of muscle which generally remain tightly
constricted except during defecation. The anal sphincters
are also intended for material to pass through them in a
direction that leads out of the body. When an attempt is
made to insert something in the reverse direction, the
muscles of the sphincter constrictw (Agnew, 1986).
From the perspective of pathology and pathophysiology,
the varied sexual practices of homosexual men have resulted
in a diverse and expanded concept of sexually transmitted
disease and associated trauma. Four general groups of
conditions may be encountered in homosexually active men:
classical sexually transmitted diseases (gonorrhea,
infections with chlamydia trachomatis, syphilis, herpes
simplex infections, genital warts, pubic lice, scabies);
enteric diseases (infections with hig gel la species,
Campylobacter jejuni, Entamoeba histolytica, Giardia
lamblia, hepatitis A, hepatitis B, hepatitis non-A, non-B,
and cytomegalovirus); trauma (fecal incontinence,
hemorrhoids, anal fissure, foreign bodies, rectosigmoid
tears, allergic proctitis, penile edema, chemical sinusitis,
inhaled nitrite burns, and sexual assault of the male
patient); and the acquired immunodeficiency syndrome (AIDS)"
(Owen, 1985) .
113
A study of sexually transmitted diseases in
heterosexuals, bisexuals and homosexuals reported from
Copenhagen in 1988 (Christopherson), demonstrated that the
profile of diseases was strongly correlated to sexual life-
style. tlAmoebiasis and giardiasis were found respectively
in 31.9% and 13'.8% of homosexuals. None of the
heterosexuals had pathologic protozoa ... Among males with
homosexual partners, 14% had rectal infections. Gonococcal
and chlamydia1 infections were equally frequent. Three
percent had symptomatic anorectal herpes simplex infection
and 11% anal warts...Urethral gonorrhea and/or chlamydia
infections were diagnosed in 39% of heterosexuals compared
to only 10% of homosexuals and bisexuals. Twelve percent of
the homosexuals had untreated early syphilis, whereas
syphilis was exceptional among heterosexuals. The total
burden of infections expressed as the actual number of
infections was largest among homosexuals, 40.4%, 22.4%, and
5.3% having one, two, and three infections respectively."
In addition to infection, trauma and tumors are the
primary problems related to the anorectum in homosexual men.
heterosexuals, bisexuals and homosexuals reported from
Copenhagen in 1988 (Christopherson), demonstrated that the
profile of diseases was strongly correlated to sexual life-
style. tlAmoebiasis and giardiasis were found respectively
in 31.9% and 13'.8% of homosexuals. None of the
heterosexuals had pathologic protozoa ... Among males with
homosexual partners, 14% had rectal infections. Gonococcal
and chlamydia1 infections were equally frequent. Three
percent had symptomatic anorectal herpes simplex infection
and 11% anal warts...Urethral gonorrhea and/or chlamydia
infections were diagnosed in 39% of heterosexuals compared
to only 10% of homosexuals and bisexuals. Twelve percent of
the homosexuals had untreated early syphilis, whereas
syphilis was exceptional among heterosexuals. The total
burden of infections expressed as the actual number of
infections was largest among homosexuals, 40.4%, 22.4%, and
5.3% having one, two, and three infections respectively."
In addition to infection, trauma and tumors are the
primary problems related to the anorectum in homosexual men.
114
Anal penetration without
lubrication against a resistant sphincter will result in
abrasive trauma, causing fissures, contusions, thrombosed
hemorrhoids, lacerations with bleeding, pain, and psychic
traumaw (Bush, 1986). The most severe type of anorectal
trauma follows fist fornication which during the 1970s was
practiced by approximately 5% of the male homosexual
population (Geist, 1998). It should be noted that this
activity is occasionally practiced by heterosexual and
lesbian couples. This technique of anal eroticism involves
having the partner insert their hand and forearm into the
rectum for erotic stimulation. "The insertion of such a
large object as a hand or fist creates the potential for
rupture of the rectum or severe damage to the anus or rectal
wallstv (Agnew, 1996). ItParticipants frequently use drugs to
produce inhibition or relaxation, thereby clouding
appropriate responses to painful stimuli. Injuries
sustained in this sexual activity generally tend to be
severer and account for most sphincter injuries, as well as
a disproportionate number of the lacerations, perforations,
and deaths seen in connection with anal eroticismtt (Geist,
1998).
lubrication against a resistant sphincter will result in
abrasive trauma, causing fissures, contusions, thrombosed
hemorrhoids, lacerations with bleeding, pain, and psychic
traumaw (Bush, 1986). The most severe type of anorectal
trauma follows fist fornication which during the 1970s was
practiced by approximately 5% of the male homosexual
population (Geist, 1998). It should be noted that this
activity is occasionally practiced by heterosexual and
lesbian couples. This technique of anal eroticism involves
having the partner insert their hand and forearm into the
rectum for erotic stimulation. "The insertion of such a
large object as a hand or fist creates the potential for
rupture of the rectum or severe damage to the anus or rectal
wallstv (Agnew, 1996). ItParticipants frequently use drugs to
produce inhibition or relaxation, thereby clouding
appropriate responses to painful stimuli. Injuries
sustained in this sexual activity generally tend to be
severer and account for most sphincter injuries, as well as
a disproportionate number of the lacerations, perforations,
and deaths seen in connection with anal eroticismtt (Geist,
1998).
115
In addition to infections and trauma, tumors are a
rlsK ror homosexual men. Homoosexual behavior in
men is a risk factor for anal cancer. Squamous-cell anal
cancer is also associated with a history of genital warts,
an association suggesting that papillomavirus infection is a
cause of anal cancerw (Daling, 1997). Anal warts are
commonly found among individuals who practice anal
intercourse and only rarely found among heterosexuals
practicing vaginal intercourse. "In one series of 260
homosexual men seen by proctologists, 134 (51.5 percent) had
anal warts. They may occur anywhere in the anal-genital
area but are particularly common in the anus of homosexual
menw (Quinn, 1994). This infection appears to be correlated
with the higher incidence of anal cancer in homosexual men.
rlsK ror homosexual men. Homoosexual behavior in
men is a risk factor for anal cancer. Squamous-cell anal
cancer is also associated with a history of genital warts,
an association suggesting that papillomavirus infection is a
cause of anal cancerw (Daling, 1997). Anal warts are
commonly found among individuals who practice anal
intercourse and only rarely found among heterosexuals
practicing vaginal intercourse. "In one series of 260
homosexual men seen by proctologists, 134 (51.5 percent) had
anal warts. They may occur anywhere in the anal-genital
area but are particularly common in the anus of homosexual
menw (Quinn, 1994). This infection appears to be correlated
with the higher incidence of anal cancer in homosexual men.
116
From an
anatomical (structure) and physiological (function) point of
view it is indisputable that the human sexes are complementary.
It is absolutely clear that anatomically and
physiologically the alimentary and reproductive systems in
humans are separate organ systems; i.e., the human does not
have a cloaca. Likewise it is clear that even primitive
cultures understand the nature of waste elimination, sexual
intercourse, and the birth of children. These simple "scientifictt facts
are the same in any culture - patriarchal or matriarchal,
modern or primitive, Jewish or gentile, etc. The anatomic
and physiologic facts of alimentation and reproduction
simply do not change based on any cultural setting. In
fact, the logical complementarity of the human sexes has
been so recognized in our culture that it has entered our
vocabulary in the form of naming various pipe fittings
either the male fitting or the female fitting depending upon
which one interlocks within the other. When the
complementarity of the sexes is breached, injuries and
diseases may occur as noted above.
Therefore, based on the simplest known anatomy and
physiology, when dealing with the complementarity of the
human sexes, one can simply say, Res ipsa loquitur - the
thing speaks for itself.....
anatomical (structure) and physiological (function) point of
view it is indisputable that the human sexes are complementary.
It is absolutely clear that anatomically and
physiologically the alimentary and reproductive systems in
humans are separate organ systems; i.e., the human does not
have a cloaca. Likewise it is clear that even primitive
cultures understand the nature of waste elimination, sexual
intercourse, and the birth of children. These simple "scientifictt facts
are the same in any culture - patriarchal or matriarchal,
modern or primitive, Jewish or gentile, etc. The anatomic
and physiologic facts of alimentation and reproduction
simply do not change based on any cultural setting. In
fact, the logical complementarity of the human sexes has
been so recognized in our culture that it has entered our
vocabulary in the form of naming various pipe fittings
either the male fitting or the female fitting depending upon
which one interlocks within the other. When the
complementarity of the sexes is breached, injuries and
diseases may occur as noted above.
Therefore, based on the simplest known anatomy and
physiology, when dealing with the complementarity of the
human sexes, one can simply say, Res ipsa loquitur - the
thing speaks for itself.....
117
111-116, no matter what bullshit you post, your deep seated homosexual feelings are not going away. Nobody who spends as much time as you thinking and obsessing about gay sex is straight.
119
I wish that there might have been reaction shots during her speech. At the end of her speech, just before the video ends, the body language of the persons in view all pretty much look like head down, tail between legs. They're wrong, and they know it.
Peace.
Peace.
120
Bob, we are sorry to hear about your inner struggles and demons.
but you shouldn't assume that everyone is as confused as you are.
the way you stalk the troll suggests you still have unresolved issues.
but you shouldn't assume that everyone is as confused as you are.
the way you stalk the troll suggests you still have unresolved issues.
121
@74- He claims to be a middle aged white man with a job and a family.
Given how feeble his attachment to honesty is, I suspect that at least part of that is a lie.
Given how feeble his attachment to honesty is, I suspect that at least part of that is a lie.
122
120, I'm on Slog because I'm a gay man, and I enjoy the news and arts from a gay perspective. What brings you here? Why is the primary focus in your life gay sex?
123
122
now now Bob.
anal≠homosexual.
Danny's told you a million times that most anal is hetero.
haven't you been paying attention?
if you didn't stalk the troll so obsessively you might not miss the world passing you by......
now now Bob.
anal≠homosexual.
Danny's told you a million times that most anal is hetero.
haven't you been paying attention?
if you didn't stalk the troll so obsessively you might not miss the world passing you by......
125
124
Bob, stupidity isn't a good color on you.....
Anal sex is a practice that carries a heavy load of collateral damage.
Homosexuals like Danny want to pretend it is 100% FOOLPROOF and SAFE then squeal like bitches for "someone" to cure the STDs that inevitably follow.
Education is the beginning of effective public health.
Slog is a target rich environment if ignorance or willful distortion is your enemy.....
20% (so far....) of sexually active homosexuals have HIV.
As a proud out gay boy are you OK with that?
Bob, stupidity isn't a good color on you.....
Anal sex is a practice that carries a heavy load of collateral damage.
Homosexuals like Danny want to pretend it is 100% FOOLPROOF and SAFE then squeal like bitches for "someone" to cure the STDs that inevitably follow.
Education is the beginning of effective public health.
Slog is a target rich environment if ignorance or willful distortion is your enemy.....
20% (so far....) of sexually active homosexuals have HIV.
As a proud out gay boy are you OK with that?
126
125, Yet you you still post about anal & gay sex day and night, and now you let it slip that you engage in anal sex.
127
126
As a proud and out gay boy are you OK with the fact that 20% of homosexuals have HIV?
and why do you think that is?
As a proud and out gay boy are you OK with the fact that 20% of homosexuals have HIV?
and why do you think that is?
128
127, after the guy is done fucking you in the ass, do you hate yourself and swear you'll never do it again? If you just accept you homosexuality, you won't have to hate yourself anymore.
129
@127 For "sexual health" the only safe sex is no sex. Period. I have no sex, ever, by choice. Not religious, not some fear of the unknown (still have better chances of being struck by lightning than getting a STD from "gay" sex) ... but simply because I don't like or enjoy sexual activity, have much better things to spend my time doing, like telling you to STFU. Really, STDs are on a rise in "straight" populations because of a lack of fear, actually, and on a decline in "gay" populations because of the increase in fear. You probably have some lame brained excuse for this, but it's truth, fact, and countradicts any of your assumptions.
Fact of the matter though, for gay men this is a strong case "for" anal sex, the most sensitive nerve endings are in the prostate, meaning, for a truly "glorious" time, anal sex is the only way men can have great orgasms, otherwise you may as well just masturbate and get it over with.
The sad thing is that you cannot in any way say you are more sexually pure than I am, but you will try. To compound that, you are just plain wrong in all your "facts" ... so wrong that it's almost dangerous ... sadly in order to preserve freedom of speech you have to be allowed to spew your complete nonsense.
Fact of the matter though, for gay men this is a strong case "for" anal sex, the most sensitive nerve endings are in the prostate, meaning, for a truly "glorious" time, anal sex is the only way men can have great orgasms, otherwise you may as well just masturbate and get it over with.
The sad thing is that you cannot in any way say you are more sexually pure than I am, but you will try. To compound that, you are just plain wrong in all your "facts" ... so wrong that it's almost dangerous ... sadly in order to preserve freedom of speech you have to be allowed to spew your complete nonsense.
130
Why is it that Seattleblues is so focused on homosexuality only being about physical attraction without ever considering that two people of the same sex could also have romantic feelings for each other?
I assume the reason he married his wife has nothing to do with thousands of years of tradition but because he loves her and wanted to share his life with her. So why can't two people of the same sex who love each other have the same right?
I notice he shuts up whenever this argument comes up, probably because he doesn't have a glib, sarcastic answer he can fall back on.
I assume the reason he married his wife has nothing to do with thousands of years of tradition but because he loves her and wanted to share his life with her. So why can't two people of the same sex who love each other have the same right?
I notice he shuts up whenever this argument comes up, probably because he doesn't have a glib, sarcastic answer he can fall back on.
131
@110, (KittenKoder), the law in question does not make bullying itself illegal per se, unless it rises to whatever level Michigan requires for anti-harassment laws to apply. Rather, it requires school districts to adopt anti-bullying policies. No one's going to jail fall calling someone a bad name.
Seeing as we mandate that kids go to school, it kind of behooves us to at least *try* to provide some level of safety to them while they're in the building. We don't expect 12-year-olds to have the same ability to shrug things off that we expect of adults.
Seeing as we mandate that kids go to school, it kind of behooves us to at least *try* to provide some level of safety to them while they're in the building. We don't expect 12-year-olds to have the same ability to shrug things off that we expect of adults.
132
@111-116: Quote from James W. Holsinger's paper "Pathophysiology of Male Homosexuality", written for his church in 1991, and which he has since claimed does not represent his current views and is not an example of his scientific work (citation!).
Sorry, science is not on your side here.
@129: "for a truly "glorious" time, anal sex is the only way men can have great orgasms, otherwise you may as well just masturbate and get it over with."
Excuse me, you don't have a dick. Do I go around telling women how they can and can't have orgasms? No, I'd probably get arrested if I did. You and your ovaries can butt out and keep koding those kittens.
Sorry, science is not on your side here.
@129: "for a truly "glorious" time, anal sex is the only way men can have great orgasms, otherwise you may as well just masturbate and get it over with."
Excuse me, you don't have a dick. Do I go around telling women how they can and can't have orgasms? No, I'd probably get arrested if I did. You and your ovaries can butt out and keep koding those kittens.
133
@131 That I don't see a problem with, it's that politician scum like to run with things like this and abuse it. However, I was bullied in elementary school, and because of it I actually spent more time in higher grades learning instead of worrying about stupid social interactions ... so the effects of generic bullying are not always negative.
@132 Nice, I based what I typed on biology, you based your response on a latent fear of homosexuality. My comment was a bit lewd ... but it was to remind the anti-gay freaks that there's more to the story than they are willing to admit, not saying that everyone should be gay. Which I am betting is what you read it as. Here's the problem though, you really have not been paying attention to my posts at all, odd that you actually read that one, for if you had paid attention to my other posts you'd know I speak from experience.
@132 Nice, I based what I typed on biology, you based your response on a latent fear of homosexuality. My comment was a bit lewd ... but it was to remind the anti-gay freaks that there's more to the story than they are willing to admit, not saying that everyone should be gay. Which I am betting is what you read it as. Here's the problem though, you really have not been paying attention to my posts at all, odd that you actually read that one, for if you had paid attention to my other posts you'd know I speak from experience.
135
@133, what are you talking about, 'politician scum'? Can you give me an example of an elected official abusing a law like this one?
Do you honestly believe that the bullying you received had no negative effects on you, long-term? Because social interactions are not stupid, they are human. The ones that happen in high school may be juvenile, but they are training for how we interact as adults.
Also, please don't make the assumption that just because you survived it, it can't be that bad for everyone.
Do you honestly believe that the bullying you received had no negative effects on you, long-term? Because social interactions are not stupid, they are human. The ones that happen in high school may be juvenile, but they are training for how we interact as adults.
Also, please don't make the assumption that just because you survived it, it can't be that bad for everyone.
136
. . . and wow. If *you'd* been paying attention, you'd know that venomlash is not homophobic in the slightest. He's kind of awesome, actually.
His point was that you *cannot* speak from experience, not having a prostate.
His point was that you *cannot* speak from experience, not having a prostate.
137
@136: Actually, my point was that she can't speak from experience, not having a penis. I have perfectly awesome sex that doesn't involve my ass at all.
But thank you for your favorable assessment.
But thank you for your favorable assessment.
138
@135: "Do you honestly believe that the bullying you received had no negative effects on you, long-term? Because social interactions are not stupid, they are human. The ones that happen in high school may be juvenile, but they are training for how we interact as adults."
KK simply doesn't give a shit about any of the people surrounding her.
KK simply doesn't give a shit about any of the people surrounding her.
139
@137 Who says I don't? Seriously ... who says I don't?
@138 I love when people pay attention, because you actually hit the nail on the nose with that one. You're right, I do no longer care, though it wasn't because of the bullying, it was because of the phony "I care" people. Sadly the phony "I care" people are the majority.
But here's what being bullied did teach me:
1. People who are honest are mean. Sound rather defeatist but it's proven true too often to ignore.
2. Nothing, I repeat, nothing is more important than learning. Human interaction in real life is ... well ... useless. People crave drama and create it for no reason other than to feed their inner troll. Bullies are the original trolls, the first trolls to ever exist. Once you learn to deal with them, you learn a valuable life lesson.
3. Society is nothing but people wishing everyone else would just conform to their ideals. Bullies tend to just have differing ideals than the majority and push them a little stronger. But that's all society is, just conformity. I really hate how the word "conformity" sounds now, thanks to the goths, but it's the only fitting one here.
@138 I love when people pay attention, because you actually hit the nail on the nose with that one. You're right, I do no longer care, though it wasn't because of the bullying, it was because of the phony "I care" people. Sadly the phony "I care" people are the majority.
But here's what being bullied did teach me:
1. People who are honest are mean. Sound rather defeatist but it's proven true too often to ignore.
2. Nothing, I repeat, nothing is more important than learning. Human interaction in real life is ... well ... useless. People crave drama and create it for no reason other than to feed their inner troll. Bullies are the original trolls, the first trolls to ever exist. Once you learn to deal with them, you learn a valuable life lesson.
3. Society is nothing but people wishing everyone else would just conform to their ideals. Bullies tend to just have differing ideals than the majority and push them a little stronger. But that's all society is, just conformity. I really hate how the word "conformity" sounds now, thanks to the goths, but it's the only fitting one here.
141
@139, no answer for my request for a citation? Are you seriously just trolling, here?
I'm left wondering how a person ends up so damaged as the persona you describe.
I'm left wondering how a person ends up so damaged as the persona you describe.
143
@141 Years of psychological, medical, and religious abuse by mother and doctors, that's how. You should give it a try.
144
But still no answer for my request to cite your claim that politicians abuse these kinds of law. I'm not the one creating drama here. That would be you.
146
@140: "You say so, actually"
Lawl. Can't keep up the bullshit.
@143: And yet you regularly support conservatives here who endorse psychological, medical, and religious abuse. Not surprising, but sad.
Lawl. Can't keep up the bullshit.
@143: And yet you regularly support conservatives here who endorse psychological, medical, and religious abuse. Not surprising, but sad.
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