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News & ArtsWednesday, November 2, 2011
Occupy Police Pepper Spray into the Crowd at Protest of JPMorgan Chase CEO (Updated)
Posted by Dominic Holden on Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 7:45 PM
- Goldy
- Protesters occupy Sixth Avenue outside the Sheraton Hotel.
Original post begins at 5:15 PM: More than 250 protesters have now amassed in Westlake Park downtown for a protest of JPMorgan Chase CEO Jamie Dimon tonight, who is speaking at the Sheraton Hotel, following an arrest-and-pepper-spray clash between cops and protesters at Chase Bank on Capitol Hill this afternoon. Goldy reports that the crowd is jamming out to DJs, making protest signs, and soaking scarves in vinegar to counter an another pepper spray conflict with cops. Barricades are set up around the Sheraton Hotel a couple blocks east.
Goldy asks what will happen next: Are police prepared to arrest all these people? Or do they intend to pen them in somehow? Stay tuned.
UPDATE at 6:10 PM: Protester are marching into oncoming traffic up Pine Street as they attempt to block access to the Sheraton, bringing cars to a standstill at rush hour, Goldy reports. There are more than 300 people marching through the rain chanting the classic Occupy chant: "We got sold out, banks got bailed out." Protesters announced before they left that the plan was to surround the Sheraton and link arms in two rows, but Goldy says he "isn't sure if that’s possible, but we will see how police respond when they attempt to do it."
UPDATE at 6:23 PM: Goldy calls with another update: Sixth Avenue is closed off between Union Street and Pike Street because protesters have spilled out into the street, largely thanks to the fact that barricades are blocking access to the sidewalk. Cops aren't letting poeple in, of course. Hilariously, the ballroom upstairs has a direct view down onto Sixth Avenue. Goldy says, "I don't know if Jamie Dimon is looking at the protesters, but a lot of the attendees are."
UPDATE at 6:50 PM: A team of demonstrators are inside the building and preparing an action, sources say.
- Goldy
- The cop says this gun shoots "flowers."
UPDATE at 7:08 PM: Cops are getting nasty, armed with pepper spray and what appear to be rubber bullet guns. Police pushed through the human chain a few moments ago with their bicycles and began indiscriminately pepper spraying into the crowd of people, Goldy reports. Protesters are trying to clean out their eyes, including one victim who says he was standing back simply videotaping, when the cop pepper sprayed him and the surrounding demonstrators. Goldy points out that nobody was arrested—no clear law broken—but rather just a chance to pepper spray people (even those who weren't in the human chain).
Meanwhile, several dozen cops are standing on Pike Street, some of whom have rubber bullet guns. Asked what the guns shoot, one cop said it fired "flowers."
UPDATE at 7:45 PM: As rain pelts down in heavy wind, the night wears on, and regular blasts of pepper spray begin to take their toll, the crowd has thinned to about 50 people. There aren't enough people to maintain the human chain anymore, but they stand near the hotel entrance on Pike Street. When people want to leave the hotel, Goldy reports, a few police push their bikes into the crowd as barricades and then pepper spray everyone in the crowd. This has happened several times now. There's a makeshift clinic across the street where pepper spray victims are having their eyes rinsed out (it reportedly begins to help after 20 minutes). One woman at the clinic says it was "like having habanero rubbed your eyballs."
4
Well they have 5 less hardcore protesters with them, as they couldn't wait for tonight and had to squat at the Chase bank just a few blocks from SCCC.
Lemme guess, anarchists are going to directly provoke the police, one of the cops will probably fuck up and crack a skull. Protesters will gain sympathy and rally more people to their cause. We'll have video of all of this the next morning, all except for the part where they provoke the police.
Lemme guess, anarchists are going to directly provoke the police, one of the cops will probably fuck up and crack a skull. Protesters will gain sympathy and rally more people to their cause. We'll have video of all of this the next morning, all except for the part where they provoke the police.
7
@6
OS and John T. Williams are totally different situations. Mr. Williams did nothing to provoke the police, but the protesters sure are trying. Did you not watch the video from the chase bank on Broadway? Seriously, they are begging the cops to crack their skulls. Cops are showing off some amazing restraint, but it wont last for forever.
All it takes is one one cop to fuck up.
OS and John T. Williams are totally different situations. Mr. Williams did nothing to provoke the police, but the protesters sure are trying. Did you not watch the video from the chase bank on Broadway? Seriously, they are begging the cops to crack their skulls. Cops are showing off some amazing restraint, but it wont last for forever.
All it takes is one one cop to fuck up.
12
@7 so occupying the banks protesting in solidarity with oakland or simply being at these kinds of actions means protesters should get their skulls crack? im really glad i dont know you and if you were one of my friends i make sure you are a bystander in a protest to the cops will crack your skull!!
13
If you are at a protest like this you are not "indiscriminately" sprayed with pepper spray. You are just sprayed. There's nothing indiscriminate about it.
16
"Asked what the guns shoot, one cops said it fired 'flowers.'"
Not to give the impression that I condone the police action in any way - and let me be specific that I do not - but ask a stupid question....
Not to give the impression that I condone the police action in any way - and let me be specific that I do not - but ask a stupid question....
17
I went down to protest Foster picking Dimon as an example of leadership, but I didn't sign up to block anyone going in or out of the Sheraton. I don't see the point in that. I guess I left right before the police started breaking things up; I was too cold and wet.
Dimon did see us - he was looking out a window on the far right - you can't see it in the picture. He was chatting with someone else and laughing his tony 1% laugh. Fucker.
During WTO someone asked a riot cop what his gun shot, and he said "everything."
Dimon did see us - he was looking out a window on the far right - you can't see it in the picture. He was chatting with someone else and laughing his tony 1% laugh. Fucker.
During WTO someone asked a riot cop what his gun shot, and he said "everything."
18
Sorry, but if you're preventing citizens from entering or leaving their hotel you don't deserve any warnings. You're asking for trouble.
Sympathy for the cause, but not these tactics.
And did the cops make any announcements or give any orders to disperse?
Sorry, but if you're preventing citizens from entering or leaving their hotel you don't deserve any warnings. You're asking for trouble.
Sympathy for the cause, but not these tactics.
19
What is the purpose of preventing hotel guests from entering? How is fucking up some tourist's vacation going to create meaningful change?
This reminds me of the kind of misguided, powertrip crap that Critical Mass pulls. If they're trying to convey the message "we're assholes," well, message received.
This reminds me of the kind of misguided, powertrip crap that Critical Mass pulls. If they're trying to convey the message "we're assholes," well, message received.
20
He was chatting with someone else and laughing his tony 1% laugh.
Probably pointing out that most of the protesters are going to vote for Obama next year. Of course, he was laughing.
Probably pointing out that most of the protesters are going to vote for Obama next year. Of course, he was laughing.
21
Oh, so some poor tourist's day got ruined, waaaah.
HOW ABOUT THE STATE OF THE WORLD? HOW ABOUT WE WORRY ABOUT THAT FOR ONCE? Instead of being so absorbed with yourselves and looking down on these people let me ask you...
What the hell have YOU done?
Oh, right, you're just here to feed the system and not question anything, like the good little slaves you are. Don't worry, they'll come for you next.
HOW ABOUT THE STATE OF THE WORLD? HOW ABOUT WE WORRY ABOUT THAT FOR ONCE? Instead of being so absorbed with yourselves and looking down on these people let me ask you...
What the hell have YOU done?
Oh, right, you're just here to feed the system and not question anything, like the good little slaves you are. Don't worry, they'll come for you next.
23
@7: Would you care to point out the videos and times within said videos where protesters are "begging to have their skulls cracked"? Because I see a group of brave people exercising their Constitutional Rights. For your benefit as well, might I add.
24
@21: If you really want to help the effect change, you will help to elect representatives that will win back the House for the Democrats in 2012. Now, tell me dear, how is this mayhem and depravity you so feel is so well deserved, helping the cause?
25
@21. Yawn. Yeah, yeah, we get it, you're railing against the establishment blah blah blah. Again, yawn. Your writing betrays the intelligence of a 19 year kid who's just discovered bongs, girls, and jam bands. Grow up, young buck. It's highly doubtful you were out on the front lines tonight, considering your response was submitted at 8:01pm, which makes you an armchair anarchist....always ready to talk shit over the internet but without the balls to walk the talk.
26
@21 - Aww, that is cute...Please do share your thoughts on the state of the world. Is it bad? Unfair? Can you share how you've been wronged? Grow up...
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@23 Yeah, they were really brave and honorable today protesting whatever they are actually protesting at the Broadway Chase today too. It took real courage to block access to the bank and ATMS from the students and low to middle income folks (the 99%) that actually use that sh##. And really? They're doing all of this for my benefit? Funny because to me it seems a great deal of the time like, at least in Occupy Seattle's case, one big selfish circle jerk.
28
@23
"Because I see a group of brave people exercising their
Constitutional rights."
Umm, no they weren't.
They had no permit to block the street. They had no right to block patrons and guests of a private business from entering or leaving. We have a right to peacably assemble, not to riot. We have a right to petition for redress, not to block public streets so that others can't use them. And fyi, the Supreme Court has upheld requiring permits for such gatherings. If they didn't have one, every man and woman down there was a lawbreaker.
Again, thanks SPD. Sorry your hands have been tied by a liberal mayor and that you weren't allowed to do your jobs and sweep the trash from the street.
They are rioting trash, and it's just too bad the police didn't 'indiscriminately' start using the flowers those guns shot.
And they in no way are fighting for me or represent me. I work for my living, I don't ask others to pay my way, and I don't engage in crminal behavior. These scum don't represent me in any way.
"Because I see a group of brave people exercising their
Constitutional rights."
Umm, no they weren't.
They had no permit to block the street. They had no right to block patrons and guests of a private business from entering or leaving. We have a right to peacably assemble, not to riot. We have a right to petition for redress, not to block public streets so that others can't use them. And fyi, the Supreme Court has upheld requiring permits for such gatherings. If they didn't have one, every man and woman down there was a lawbreaker.
Again, thanks SPD. Sorry your hands have been tied by a liberal mayor and that you weren't allowed to do your jobs and sweep the trash from the street.
They are rioting trash, and it's just too bad the police didn't 'indiscriminately' start using the flowers those guns shot.
And they in no way are fighting for me or represent me. I work for my living, I don't ask others to pay my way, and I don't engage in crminal behavior. These scum don't represent me in any way.
29
@24 The entire SYSTEM is broken - it doesn't matter who we vote for at this point! Do you really think it's just a matter of electing the right really nice people to office? They'll be bought off like everyone else.
OWS/OS is serving a valuable function - reminding the ruling elite that we can ruin all their nice things if we don't get our fair share. That's how we're going to get some change.
OWS/OS is serving a valuable function - reminding the ruling elite that we can ruin all their nice things if we don't get our fair share. That's how we're going to get some change.
30
@29
Here's a thought pinhead.
Want your fair share? Get a job. Take responsibility for your decisions for a change. Quit asking others for what you ought to be earning. And quit calling the theft of someone elses earnings 'your fair share'.
Hope the cops got teargas in your eyes.
Here's a thought pinhead.
Want your fair share? Get a job. Take responsibility for your decisions for a change. Quit asking others for what you ought to be earning. And quit calling the theft of someone elses earnings 'your fair share'.
Hope the cops got teargas in your eyes.
31
@21 Yesterday I deported an Italian back to Sicily where he belongs. He had been working illegally as a chef in an upscale restaurant. That's one more job for an unemployed American. So what have you done to help needy families, DZ?
32
@23/22 And what the hell are you talking about "show some maturity SPD?" While not rubber stamping all of their tactics exactly I think it's plainly obvious that they've shown a pretty good amount of restraint and certainly more "maturity" than the protesters so far. I mean, if you block access to a downtown hotel essentially trapping people inside or preventing them from going in, you are going to get arrested or pepper sprayed. You block access to a neighborhood bank branch, probably shouldn't be shocked if you get pepper sprayed. You f### with the bike cops? You're gonna get pepper sprayed. I'm not saying this is a good thing by any means but for christs sake, be a little less naive.
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@30 You have to understand where the real theft is occurring at this point. You have to have seen the charts showing income distribution over the past thirty years increasingly concentrated in the hands of a few. You have to know there are at ton of professionals like myself in OS/OWS who realize things are going to keep getting worse if we don't act, and care enough to fix things.
You have to realize all this and not care. I'm not going to bother arguing. But your time is almost up, brother.
You have to realize all this and not care. I'm not going to bother arguing. But your time is almost up, brother.
34
"Oh, so some poor tourist's day got ruined, waaaah."
That's funny, that's *exactly* something an asshole would say, in the exact way he would say it. Thank you for proving my point so succinctly.
Still no answer on what blocking tourists from entering their hotel was was about. I'm guessing the answer is, "because we could."
See - that's the trouble with a mob: it's hard to quell the misguided, meaningless display of newfound power, because power is undeniably awesome.
That's funny, that's *exactly* something an asshole would say, in the exact way he would say it. Thank you for proving my point so succinctly.
Still no answer on what blocking tourists from entering their hotel was was about. I'm guessing the answer is, "because we could."
See - that's the trouble with a mob: it's hard to quell the misguided, meaningless display of newfound power, because power is undeniably awesome.
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@33 What is that needs to be fixed exactly, and what does blocking access to a hotel have to do with it?
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@35 OS has groups that discuss all the ways money has corrupted our political system, and how to fix it. If you really give a damn, come out sometime and discuss in-depth policy with us. I'm not going to write you a freaking essay (which is required to address everything) in the comments section of a magazine site.
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@33
First, I apologize for intemperate language or wishing you physical harm.
But really, making the calm professional behavior of the SPD the headline in tomorrows papers and news broadcasts in the face of extreme provocation by your buddies is your method of addressing income inequality?
Yes, income inequality is a big big problem. Yes the failure to do their jobs on the part of Congress and the regulatory agencies with regard to the financial industry is a problem. And there are ways to address them without engaging in criminal behavior.
You guys even got one thing right with your whole thing of changing bank accounts on Nov 5th. (Kind of. The big banks often underwrite the smaller banks, so really it's just a matter of who filters the money to them, your teller or your new bank. Unless you do your homework on your new credit union or bank anyway.)
If you want to change business hit them where they care, in their pocketbooks. Shop locally if the very high actual cost of cheap goods is your concern. Use a local bank or credit union you've researched as to backing and business practices. Don't use Walmart or Home Depot or OfficeMax for your purchases, but a local vendor spending his or her profits locally. It takes more time, and it costs you more for your purchases, and it doesn't score you an evening in your tent with that girl you met while washing pepper spray out of your eyes. But it works. Which is more than I can say for Occupy whatever.
Pissing off everyone else by acting like hooligans isn't doing you folks any favors nor is it changing one blind thing. It just underscores how much the whole 'we are the 99%' thing doesn't ring true for most of us.
Know what Dimon with his $10,000 dollar watch and hotel suite for the evening that cost more than most peoples' monthly bills was doing up there? Laughing at you.
More...
First, I apologize for intemperate language or wishing you physical harm.
But really, making the calm professional behavior of the SPD the headline in tomorrows papers and news broadcasts in the face of extreme provocation by your buddies is your method of addressing income inequality?
Yes, income inequality is a big big problem. Yes the failure to do their jobs on the part of Congress and the regulatory agencies with regard to the financial industry is a problem. And there are ways to address them without engaging in criminal behavior.
You guys even got one thing right with your whole thing of changing bank accounts on Nov 5th. (Kind of. The big banks often underwrite the smaller banks, so really it's just a matter of who filters the money to them, your teller or your new bank. Unless you do your homework on your new credit union or bank anyway.)
If you want to change business hit them where they care, in their pocketbooks. Shop locally if the very high actual cost of cheap goods is your concern. Use a local bank or credit union you've researched as to backing and business practices. Don't use Walmart or Home Depot or OfficeMax for your purchases, but a local vendor spending his or her profits locally. It takes more time, and it costs you more for your purchases, and it doesn't score you an evening in your tent with that girl you met while washing pepper spray out of your eyes. But it works. Which is more than I can say for Occupy whatever.
Pissing off everyone else by acting like hooligans isn't doing you folks any favors nor is it changing one blind thing. It just underscores how much the whole 'we are the 99%' thing doesn't ring true for most of us.
Know what Dimon with his $10,000 dollar watch and hotel suite for the evening that cost more than most peoples' monthly bills was doing up there? Laughing at you.
39
@37 My sensibilities are fairly close to yours. I get into heated arguments with our more militant members over it. Many of the really pissed off people who are ready to get out of line, though? The ones that everyone assumes are a few bad seed anarchists? Lots are plain old poor and vanishing middle class folks who have completely had it. This kind of stuff is resonating with them. It shows we're willing to fight.
The easy answer is to start kicking out undesirables, and making OWS into Moveon 2.0. The thing is, though, this is the best chance for a broad-based populist movement uniting traditional liberals with the people we pretend to care about. Intellectual types like myself get work groups where we attempt to solve the big problems, while people who are more interested in visceral engagement get to yell at the police. It needs to be a little ugly and show some teeth to be effective, in my opinion.
We do need to be better at channeling the anger productively, though. I think you're starting to see that.
The easy answer is to start kicking out undesirables, and making OWS into Moveon 2.0. The thing is, though, this is the best chance for a broad-based populist movement uniting traditional liberals with the people we pretend to care about. Intellectual types like myself get work groups where we attempt to solve the big problems, while people who are more interested in visceral engagement get to yell at the police. It needs to be a little ugly and show some teeth to be effective, in my opinion.
We do need to be better at channeling the anger productively, though. I think you're starting to see that.
40
@24, there is as much reason to believe that electing Democrats will improve things as there is to believe that praying will improve things.
Obama has received more money from the securities and investment industries than any other candidate in the last 20 years. Democrats receive just as much money from the banks and Wall St. as the Republicans do.
As both parties are raping you, the Republicans are screaming, "Take it, bitch!" while the Democrats are whispering in your ear, "Daddy loves his pretty little girl..."
Voting for Democrats in general, and voting for Obama in particular, is voting against what the OWS movement stands for. Daddy does not love his pretty little girl.
Obama has received more money from the securities and investment industries than any other candidate in the last 20 years. Democrats receive just as much money from the banks and Wall St. as the Republicans do.
As both parties are raping you, the Republicans are screaming, "Take it, bitch!" while the Democrats are whispering in your ear, "Daddy loves his pretty little girl..."
Voting for Democrats in general, and voting for Obama in particular, is voting against what the OWS movement stands for. Daddy does not love his pretty little girl.
41
@29, "reminding the ruling elite that we can ruin all their nice things", what things of what elite have your ruined? Do you think Jeff Bezos, the extended Gates family, Paul Allen, Steve Ballmer, Howard Schultz and Charles Simonyi have been inconvenienced, or had their "things" ruined, by your protests? Was Bill Gates not able to deposit his check from his Microsoft quarterly shares at the Broadway Chase branch today? Was Paul Allen inconvenienced because he wanted to see a movie at the Egyptian, and there were people drumming in the plaza across the street? And please do tell me that Charles Simonyi wasn't able to buy a special lipstick at Sephora or a box of chocolates at See's for his lovely wife Lisa because of the daily "occupation". In the grand scheme of things, these are small peeps in the world of the 1%. Except maybe Bill. The fact is, you haven't "ruined" or inconvenienced the 1% in the fucking slightest. All you've done is make life more miserable for the rest of us trying to live our lives. And you wonder why the masses aren't flocking to your tent city...
42
Don't close your eyes, don't rub them, and don't try to wash it off with water. All you will do is prolong the pain, make it worse, and spread it respectfully.
Instead just try to face into the wind and force your eyes open. All you can really do is wait it out.
Instead just try to face into the wind and force your eyes open. All you can really do is wait it out.
43
@40 In 2010 a Democrat controlled congress passed a healthcare plan that, if fully implemented, will give medical insurance to tens of millions of Americans who currently lack it. Such a plan would never have been passed by a Republican congress and if the Republicans due well enough in next year's election it may never be allowed to take effect. You don't think that's important?
44
Yup. I'm sure it says somewhere in the constitution to disperse peaceful protesters at all cost.
/sarcasm
/sarcasm
45
@41 Hands down, the most on point, words of truth I have yet to see on any of these slog/message boards. Could not have said it better myself.
46
@43, that's an excellent point. I believe in universal health care and I think we should have it sooner than later. But I don't believe in forcing individuals to purchase private insurance. (Of course, the insurance companies which helped to write the plan believe in it.) I don't believe the quality of care for people on medicare and medicaid will improve with this plan. I don't believe it will have any positive effect on rising healthcare costs.
One reason that I have no faith in the plan is that it was created by a dishonest administration with the direct collaboration of insurance companies.
There are countries like France, Japan, the Netherlands which offer a variety of high quality universal health care plans. None of those approaches were considered because the insurance industry, which Obama is more interested in serving than the public, didn't stand to profit as much from them.
Of course, this raises the issue of letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. Except, I think it's more of an issue of letting the corrupt, pandering, bloated, and inefficient be the enemy of the good.
One reason that I have no faith in the plan is that it was created by a dishonest administration with the direct collaboration of insurance companies.
There are countries like France, Japan, the Netherlands which offer a variety of high quality universal health care plans. None of those approaches were considered because the insurance industry, which Obama is more interested in serving than the public, didn't stand to profit as much from them.
Of course, this raises the issue of letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. Except, I think it's more of an issue of letting the corrupt, pandering, bloated, and inefficient be the enemy of the good.
47
I'm back! Puffy eyes and all. Got sprayed a couple of times, no direct hits -- and then I got shoulder checked by a cop while I was trying to help clear the path for a Teamster-driven truck. Accidental on both counts, obviously. Also helped lead a chant to drown out a provocateur's attempts at inciting a line of cops. We're holding a line, not trying to storm the castle.
Joked with some of the cops in the last face-off, kept spirits down. Most of them are just doing their job and not part of the "spray first, ask questions later" brigade. That's why they just stand their with their bikes forming barriers.
Good action, rang loud and clear.
Joked with some of the cops in the last face-off, kept spirits down. Most of them are just doing their job and not part of the "spray first, ask questions later" brigade. That's why they just stand their with their bikes forming barriers.
Good action, rang loud and clear.
48
@21 Talk like that and your just hurting the movement, turning people against you who might be sympathetic, why shoot yourself in the foot?
49
Nice job, Baconcat. You guys really showed those hotel guests who's boss. I'm sure that bunch of 99-percenters are now on your side.
50
I would just like to thank tonights "in-activists" for their wanton disregard for public servants and civil order. The last nationwide infestation of petulant adolescents (in the 60's) preceded a run of 5-out-of-6 Presidents of a consecutive stripe.
Thank you for making next November easy.
I would just like to thank tonights "in-activists" for their wanton disregard for public servants and civil order. The last nationwide infestation of petulant adolescents (in the 60's) preceded a run of 5-out-of-6 Presidents of a consecutive stripe.
Thank you for making next November easy.
51
@49: A half-dozen folks ran out and crossed the line when the barricades were still up; later, about 8-10 folks from inside came out of the NW entrance and joined us, nice pressed pants and all!
But so sorry for the inconvenience. I kinda forgot that protests are orderly affairs where nobody is troubled by loud noises or light traffic tie-ups.
But so sorry for the inconvenience. I kinda forgot that protests are orderly affairs where nobody is troubled by loud noises or light traffic tie-ups.
52
Tent_Liberation_Army: Your first paragraph in @29:
Could have been written in 1776 and every year thereafter to the present day. But still, we clunk along with the best broken system on the planet. However, I give you credit as your passion is not without substantive conviction. The Republicans will never realize how expensive it is to run a society and only if Obama has a majority in both houses will our middle class and our public sector employees once again achieve the prosperity that is the engine and backbone of what made America great.
So please tell me, how is disrupting a branch bank operated primarily by staffers and patronized by the good folk that make up the 99% achieving anything but negative publicity?
The entire SYSTEM is broken - it doesn't matter who we vote for at this point! Do you really think it's just a matter of electing the right really nice people to office? They'll be bought off like everyone else.
Could have been written in 1776 and every year thereafter to the present day. But still, we clunk along with the best broken system on the planet. However, I give you credit as your passion is not without substantive conviction. The Republicans will never realize how expensive it is to run a society and only if Obama has a majority in both houses will our middle class and our public sector employees once again achieve the prosperity that is the engine and backbone of what made America great.
So please tell me, how is disrupting a branch bank operated primarily by staffers and patronized by the good folk that make up the 99% achieving anything but negative publicity?
53
I've been doing direct action and street protests for nearly 25 years, including several days at Westlake with OccupySeattle, and I feel the need to address a couple of items in this blog posts and comments.
Some of these actions involve people going beyond their "Constitutional rights". The Constitution guarantees the right of the people "peaceably to assemble." Blocking street traffic without a permit, blocking pedestrian traffic on a public sidewalk, or blocking access into or out of a place of business does not constitute "peaceable" assembly.
The police are acting within their authority by taking action against protesters who engage in these activities. Protesters who do these things are exceeding their rights under the First Amendment.
While these kinds of activities are not Constitutionally protected, they still may be morally justified (under certain circumstances) as acts of civil disobedience. Let's just be clear, though, if you are engaging in civil disobedience and the cops take action against you, your First Amendment rights have not been impinged.
That said, I think it is questionable to use pepper spray or "less lethal" tactics against non-violent demonstrators, especially when there are people nearby who are customers or guests trying to enter or leave an establishment.
Consider keeping moving pickets on the sidewalk in front of an establishment rather than outright blocking access. You have a right to walk on a sidewalk, with a political sign, chanting, without a permit, even if there are a lot of you doing it in the same place at the same time. If you are walking at all times, you have much better grounds for claiming that your rights of free speech are being impinged. (You have a right to stand while protesting in a park -- parks are intended for loitering, while sidewalks are not -- although with enough people, you may be required to have a permit.)
More...
Some of these actions involve people going beyond their "Constitutional rights". The Constitution guarantees the right of the people "peaceably to assemble." Blocking street traffic without a permit, blocking pedestrian traffic on a public sidewalk, or blocking access into or out of a place of business does not constitute "peaceable" assembly.
The police are acting within their authority by taking action against protesters who engage in these activities. Protesters who do these things are exceeding their rights under the First Amendment.
While these kinds of activities are not Constitutionally protected, they still may be morally justified (under certain circumstances) as acts of civil disobedience. Let's just be clear, though, if you are engaging in civil disobedience and the cops take action against you, your First Amendment rights have not been impinged.
That said, I think it is questionable to use pepper spray or "less lethal" tactics against non-violent demonstrators, especially when there are people nearby who are customers or guests trying to enter or leave an establishment.
Consider keeping moving pickets on the sidewalk in front of an establishment rather than outright blocking access. You have a right to walk on a sidewalk, with a political sign, chanting, without a permit, even if there are a lot of you doing it in the same place at the same time. If you are walking at all times, you have much better grounds for claiming that your rights of free speech are being impinged. (You have a right to stand while protesting in a park -- parks are intended for loitering, while sidewalks are not -- although with enough people, you may be required to have a permit.)
54
Jamie Dimon sounds like the name of one of the hosts on the old USA Up All Night show.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hyhYiAzp…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hyhYiAzp…
55
#52
You mean like when he had that in 2008 to 2010?
only if Obama has a majority in both houses will our middle class and our public sector employees once again achieve the prosperity that is the engine and backbone of what made America great...
You mean like when he had that in 2008 to 2010?
60
Really would like to see Jamie Dimon brought to justice. He's patient zero in this whole financial contagion.
61
@52 It's an implicit threat as a bargaining chip. I guarantee the powers that be aren't being a densely literal as many of the posters here. They get it - "today, these people shut down our country's fifth largest port, and formed an angry mob in the cold and pouring rain just to tell us how pissed off they are. They're organized, and not going away. Maybe we should rethink the whole 'let them eat cake' economic program we've been paying politicians to implement."
On the other side, our society's narrow conception of freedom is being used as an implicit threat towards the poor and middle class to keep them working increasingly scarce jobs that pay less. Think of occupy as fighting fire with fire.
Please, lets be honest with ourselves. Fixing things inside our political system (corporations no longer considered people, and the wealthiest no longer able to buy both political parties to start) is going to require a constitutional amendment or two. We don't have the leverage to accomplish this because of how badly the deck has been stacked towards a wealthy few. Occupy is exerting some much-needed outside pressure from the masses.
On the other side, our society's narrow conception of freedom is being used as an implicit threat towards the poor and middle class to keep them working increasingly scarce jobs that pay less. Think of occupy as fighting fire with fire.
Please, lets be honest with ourselves. Fixing things inside our political system (corporations no longer considered people, and the wealthiest no longer able to buy both political parties to start) is going to require a constitutional amendment or two. We don't have the leverage to accomplish this because of how badly the deck has been stacked towards a wealthy few. Occupy is exerting some much-needed outside pressure from the masses.
62
I was there, I chanted and waved at the well dressed champagne sipping folks staring down at us from up high, and I still don't understand why we were trying to keep folks from entering or leaving the building.
The people who were sprayed tried to form a human chain blocking people from walking into the building. The cops tried to push back with their bikes (which never seems to work), and something happened (won't say because I wasn't there). Cops then decided to spray. The spray bottles are large red canisters. If you see the canister and continue, there's a good chance you will be sprayed.
#occupyseattle NEEDS to focus on who and what it is protesting. I have no problem with people staying in a hotel. Why block them? (All we do is lose support. There were guests giving us thumbs up as they walked in) And I don't want the freaking "Street". We were blocking cabbies and truckers (big time 99% supporters) I got angry with us and started waving through the cabs. Then others started helping the trucker get through. These are working people. 99%. Why F- with them. It's the Chase guy we're angry at.
The 99% is a BIG, inclusive group. We claim to speak for ALL of them. Why piss them off when it's Chase we're angry at?
God bless the cabbies, the truck drivers, the bus drivers, the cops, the tourists who just wanted to get back to their rooms. And I hope every one of those tuxedo wearing, champagne sipping ladies and gentlemen staring down at us think about why that bunch of soggy protestors seemed so angry.
The people who were sprayed tried to form a human chain blocking people from walking into the building. The cops tried to push back with their bikes (which never seems to work), and something happened (won't say because I wasn't there). Cops then decided to spray. The spray bottles are large red canisters. If you see the canister and continue, there's a good chance you will be sprayed.
#occupyseattle NEEDS to focus on who and what it is protesting. I have no problem with people staying in a hotel. Why block them? (All we do is lose support. There were guests giving us thumbs up as they walked in) And I don't want the freaking "Street". We were blocking cabbies and truckers (big time 99% supporters) I got angry with us and started waving through the cabs. Then others started helping the trucker get through. These are working people. 99%. Why F- with them. It's the Chase guy we're angry at.
The 99% is a BIG, inclusive group. We claim to speak for ALL of them. Why piss them off when it's Chase we're angry at?
God bless the cabbies, the truck drivers, the bus drivers, the cops, the tourists who just wanted to get back to their rooms. And I hope every one of those tuxedo wearing, champagne sipping ladies and gentlemen staring down at us think about why that bunch of soggy protestors seemed so angry.
63
OK, off-topic, but I can't help it. @46:
Not too familiar with the economics of health care, are we? One of the principal cost-containment features the individual mandate and a universal single-payer system share is a guarantee on the size of the risk pool. When people are allowed to opt-out when they're healthy, then opt back in when they get sick, there is no way the underwriter (private or public) can support the costs.
Sure, the idea of creating captive markets for the likes of Aetna doesn't excite me either; but, a) the insurance exchanges could serve to dilute the market power of individual private firms, and b) there is widely accepted evidence (at least among economists) that increasing the risk pool is absolutely critical to meaningful, sustainable cost-containment. I'm all for a government-operated single-payer system, but that's not politically possible right now. The original Obama plan was an important step in that direction, and it's too bad that key provisions are being eroded away.
@43, that's an excellent point. I believe in universal health care and I think we should have it sooner than later. But I don't believe in forcing individuals to purchase private insurance
Not too familiar with the economics of health care, are we? One of the principal cost-containment features the individual mandate and a universal single-payer system share is a guarantee on the size of the risk pool. When people are allowed to opt-out when they're healthy, then opt back in when they get sick, there is no way the underwriter (private or public) can support the costs.
Sure, the idea of creating captive markets for the likes of Aetna doesn't excite me either; but, a) the insurance exchanges could serve to dilute the market power of individual private firms, and b) there is widely accepted evidence (at least among economists) that increasing the risk pool is absolutely critical to meaningful, sustainable cost-containment. I'm all for a government-operated single-payer system, but that's not politically possible right now. The original Obama plan was an important step in that direction, and it's too bad that key provisions are being eroded away.
64
The more people hear about Occupy Wall Street and associated movements, the more they support it: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/11/03…
Looks like opposition in polls will hang around 15-25 percent (depending on the poll) and support will keep its plurality.
Looks like opposition in polls will hang around 15-25 percent (depending on the poll) and support will keep its plurality.
66
@65 No Opinion is not counted either as Yes or No, and not included in the denominator in most statistical studies.
67
@66
A plurality does not have a denominator.
If the poll says a plurality doesn't care about an issue, then you can't use that poll to say a plurality is in favor of your position.
A plurality does not have a denominator.
If the poll says a plurality doesn't care about an issue, then you can't use that poll to say a plurality is in favor of your position.
69
WE were letting tourists and workers through, WE were after Dimon. If anyone but him could not leave or enter, it was because of the COPS, who (Officer HAYES) would push us from behind without warning jsut to to fuck with us when we first set up at one of the doors, and when asked to use their WORDS and ASK us to move first, officer HAYES told us that his Mother did not teach him manners, I wonder what she would think to hear that?
70
@69 Marcelius. We planned the locked arms, row of two action to specifically block traffic by car or on foot in or out. Jesus, everyone there could here us chanting "No cars in, No cars out!" We then were instructed to move farther down to block the side entrance (where the pepper spray happened). I bailed on the "human wall" because I failed to see how preventing guests entrance was helping our cause.
I shouted my brains out so that every person in that building could hear us, and I waved Hi to the champagne set, but we DID try to block entrance. We also tried to block street traffic. What do cabbies and truckers have to do with the 1%. I waved cabbies through because they support us. I started waving on the trucker and then we started fighting.
We need focus. We need to know what we are going to do, why, and what actions will result. I didn't agree to blocking working guys from getting by on the street. Civil Disobedience does NOT mean random acts of stupidity. The protest was beautiful. Dimon got the message through our presence and voice. Blocking tourists, cabbies and truckers just turns people against us.
I don't want the "Street". I want to change the system. Intelligent, targeted protest at specific targets will do that.
I shouted my brains out so that every person in that building could hear us, and I waved Hi to the champagne set, but we DID try to block entrance. We also tried to block street traffic. What do cabbies and truckers have to do with the 1%. I waved cabbies through because they support us. I started waving on the trucker and then we started fighting.
We need focus. We need to know what we are going to do, why, and what actions will result. I didn't agree to blocking working guys from getting by on the street. Civil Disobedience does NOT mean random acts of stupidity. The protest was beautiful. Dimon got the message through our presence and voice. Blocking tourists, cabbies and truckers just turns people against us.
I don't want the "Street". I want to change the system. Intelligent, targeted protest at specific targets will do that.
71
@70
How did a consensus-oriented direct-democracy decision-making process result in an action that you did not fully agree to?
I'm not asking this to be facetious or disparage the movement; I'm simply curious to know how the internal political process produced an action that you found yourself repudiating, in part, after it was underway.
How did a consensus-oriented direct-democracy decision-making process result in an action that you did not fully agree to?
I'm not asking this to be facetious or disparage the movement; I'm simply curious to know how the internal political process produced an action that you found yourself repudiating, in part, after it was underway.
72
@71 We have MANY ideas, beliefs, philosophies within this movement. That is one of the common complaints about the entire #occupy movement. They say we have no clear focus. No one single purpose. No leader.
We have confirmed Socialist, Anarchists, Liberals, Democrats...(and the list goes on). There is very rigorous, very passionate debate at the GA meetings, at the camp and online. But I know in my heart that we all agree on one issue...the System, as it exists right now, is F-ed. Banks that helped destroy the economy, recieved bail out money from the US Tax Payer, STILL make profits hand over fist while average Americans look at having less police and fire protection, greater strain on our overworked teachers, less access to health care and education. We agree that the Rich should NOT be allowed to purchase our government. We agree corporations are NOT people and unlimited, anonymous cash is not "Speech".
We have different ideas on how to get there. Some of us are much more Radical. I am a classic Liberal Democrat. So our protest at the Sheraton on the whole was brilliant. What better picture to sum up what we stand for than the tuxeoed, champagne sipping crowd looking down on the cold, wet 99% too angry to come in out of the rain. I was proud to be in that crowd, shoulder to shoulder, participating in true democracy.
It was on a personal level that I did not understand the "No one in, No one out" action. When I saw the result (people we have no beef with being inconvienced), I made the decision to step out of the human chain. We were angering the very people we claim to represent. Blocking truckers and cabbies and folks on vacation does not help our cause.
But this is my opinion. I do not fully agree with every action we vote on, it would be ridiculous for me to expect as much. I'm sure you belong to political, social, or employment groups that make decisions you do not fully agree with. And I do not take it as a dispargement of the movement. It is good that we have so many voices, so many ideas. We have not been bought and rebranded by a Cable "News" Organization (Fox News Presents the Koch Brothers Tea Party).
The cause is good. We will differ sometimes on how we get to a solution. But we will.
More...
We have confirmed Socialist, Anarchists, Liberals, Democrats...(and the list goes on). There is very rigorous, very passionate debate at the GA meetings, at the camp and online. But I know in my heart that we all agree on one issue...the System, as it exists right now, is F-ed. Banks that helped destroy the economy, recieved bail out money from the US Tax Payer, STILL make profits hand over fist while average Americans look at having less police and fire protection, greater strain on our overworked teachers, less access to health care and education. We agree that the Rich should NOT be allowed to purchase our government. We agree corporations are NOT people and unlimited, anonymous cash is not "Speech".
We have different ideas on how to get there. Some of us are much more Radical. I am a classic Liberal Democrat. So our protest at the Sheraton on the whole was brilliant. What better picture to sum up what we stand for than the tuxeoed, champagne sipping crowd looking down on the cold, wet 99% too angry to come in out of the rain. I was proud to be in that crowd, shoulder to shoulder, participating in true democracy.
It was on a personal level that I did not understand the "No one in, No one out" action. When I saw the result (people we have no beef with being inconvienced), I made the decision to step out of the human chain. We were angering the very people we claim to represent. Blocking truckers and cabbies and folks on vacation does not help our cause.
But this is my opinion. I do not fully agree with every action we vote on, it would be ridiculous for me to expect as much. I'm sure you belong to political, social, or employment groups that make decisions you do not fully agree with. And I do not take it as a dispargement of the movement. It is good that we have so many voices, so many ideas. We have not been bought and rebranded by a Cable "News" Organization (Fox News Presents the Koch Brothers Tea Party).
The cause is good. We will differ sometimes on how we get to a solution. But we will.
73
@72
Um, yes, I do have a pretty good understanding of the structure and decision-making process of the Occupy movement, and anyone with two neurons to rub together is aware of the overarching grievances. At this point, I feel a bit condescended to when all that is reiterated in response to an informed question. I get it. I don't need convincing. I'm on your side, for Pete's sake.
From what I understand, you did not block the proposed action in the GA because you liked it in principle. You then dropped out of the action when you found yourself in disagreement with the implications of the particular tactics being used. Is that a fair summary?
My question, then, I think, is whether or not specific tactics are approved by the GA, or if there is a working group making those decisions on its own? I do understand that there might be a need to avoid public airing of detailed tactical plans, if keeping advance information away from the police is a concern.
Um, yes, I do have a pretty good understanding of the structure and decision-making process of the Occupy movement, and anyone with two neurons to rub together is aware of the overarching grievances. At this point, I feel a bit condescended to when all that is reiterated in response to an informed question. I get it. I don't need convincing. I'm on your side, for Pete's sake.
From what I understand, you did not block the proposed action in the GA because you liked it in principle. You then dropped out of the action when you found yourself in disagreement with the implications of the particular tactics being used. Is that a fair summary?
My question, then, I think, is whether or not specific tactics are approved by the GA, or if there is a working group making those decisions on its own? I do understand that there might be a need to avoid public airing of detailed tactical plans, if keeping advance information away from the police is a concern.
74
@73 Who are you? You state you know how decisions are made, then ask about the decision making process. If I answer you in this forum, then yes, I am discussing tactics.
I have no clue who's side your on, or why there are even sides. When we chant "No cars in. no cars out" it's kind of obvious our plan. And no, I did not agree with that particular action. That's why I stepped out. Not knowing who you are, we'll just leave it there.
We can discuss inner workings of the decision making process, and concerns some of us had, but no, I did not vote on that particular tactic. Don't know where it came from, and I missed where it was voted or agreed on.
So at the Sheraton I was prompted to link arms. I didn't understand the action, so I stepped aside.
No neuron rubbing or condescending, but does that help? I'll give you my Twitter name if you are really interested and we can discuss even more.
I have no clue who's side your on, or why there are even sides. When we chant "No cars in. no cars out" it's kind of obvious our plan. And no, I did not agree with that particular action. That's why I stepped out. Not knowing who you are, we'll just leave it there.
We can discuss inner workings of the decision making process, and concerns some of us had, but no, I did not vote on that particular tactic. Don't know where it came from, and I missed where it was voted or agreed on.
So at the Sheraton I was prompted to link arms. I didn't understand the action, so I stepped aside.
No neuron rubbing or condescending, but does that help? I'll give you my Twitter name if you are really interested and we can discuss even more.
75
And @73,um, you understand this movement. I read your detailed history of the Anarchists who helped form the movement. You understand GA and working groups. You understand how blocks work, ect.
Again, I don't know you. If you would like to discuss the movement and my own beliefs, I would be more than happy. I will put my Twitter on my bio. If you Twitter, please contact me. We could have a more detailed convo that way.
Again, I don't know you. If you would like to discuss the movement and my own beliefs, I would be more than happy. I will put my Twitter on my bio. If you Twitter, please contact me. We could have a more detailed convo that way.
76
Frankly, I'm fed up with the idiots among the OWS protesters who can't figure out the difference between constitutionally supported protesting and what THESE morons are doing. If you are blocking other citizens from using public property you are hardly representing their interests. Like it or not, the protesters among the OWS are more like 2% of the nation and speaking for possibly 5% with these kinds of tactics. The handful who are staying within the law in their protest efforts are speaking for more like 40% and dwindling because of that 2% that is staying in the media circle of attention. You can't represent people who do not want you representing them. You can't speak for people who do not want you speaking for them. Regardless whether itis in fact in their best interests on a larger scale or not. As long as these kinds of tactics continue to be used by the majority of protesters, the OWS is self doomed and the majority of the thinking population (which is admittedly smaller than it should be) will not hear your message because they are too busy denouncing your methods.
When that protester blocking traffic banged on a pissed off drivers hood and the driver responded by running him and another person down, were the protesters speaking on the drivers behalf or representing HIM? I don't think so. They were just some self important ass holes blocking traffic. Was it right to run them down? Hell no. Was it right that the cops let the guy drive away? Hell no. Was BOTH a direct response to the bullshit methods being used by such protesters? HELL YES!! So wake up and smell the pepper spray already, and change how you're going about this whole thing! Stop screwing with other citizens and THIER rights if you want YOUR honored!
For the record, I'm just as fed up with the banks and corporations running the world as anyone, but I'll be damned if I'm going to look at a line of people preventing me from getting to my ATM to pull out some money to pay my bills or buy groceries for my family, or blocking me from exiting a hotel I'm staying in and think to myself "Wow, these guys are really doing great and wonderful things for me right now!" GET A CLUE!!
More...
When that protester blocking traffic banged on a pissed off drivers hood and the driver responded by running him and another person down, were the protesters speaking on the drivers behalf or representing HIM? I don't think so. They were just some self important ass holes blocking traffic. Was it right to run them down? Hell no. Was it right that the cops let the guy drive away? Hell no. Was BOTH a direct response to the bullshit methods being used by such protesters? HELL YES!! So wake up and smell the pepper spray already, and change how you're going about this whole thing! Stop screwing with other citizens and THIER rights if you want YOUR honored!
For the record, I'm just as fed up with the banks and corporations running the world as anyone, but I'll be damned if I'm going to look at a line of people preventing me from getting to my ATM to pull out some money to pay my bills or buy groceries for my family, or blocking me from exiting a hotel I'm staying in and think to myself "Wow, these guys are really doing great and wonderful things for me right now!" GET A CLUE!!
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